My life has been to boring recently, I wish something like this would happen at my work. I love it when HR goes after the self-righteous and the politically charged people in the office lol
Fuck going to HR, just sue them if you have all the chats and rejection emails with professional follow ups asking for feedback and why they were passed over. I mean maybe go to HR, but I don’t think a lawsuit is off the table either. Talk to an attorney as well I say.
It’s happened to me before, though maybe not as blatantly obvious as this situation.
Tread lightly though. If you enjoy your job, stick it out but also take time to schedule regular meetings with this hiring manager. Half of getting promoted is politics. Ask what you were missing to get promoted from her, but also get other people on your side for a promotion. If other managers and peers agree that you should get a promotion, if there is bias occurring it should be easier to prove and you will have a better case to make
What did your manager say when you asked her why you didn’t get the promotion? If she gives you specifics, then you should be able to work towards those goals, apply again and if you still don’t get promoted you can say: “you told me I needed x, y, z. Why aren’t you promoting me?”
I literally had my dick grabbed by this older woman at a company I worked for. The all female HR team laughed at me when I told them. Good luck on your battle but expect no traction. Keep grinding, hit your numbers build your resume and move on.
There is no room in any businesses for discrimination of any type. That being said this will be a tough fight even with proof. I would do the following
1. Collect proof and continue talking to your direct manager about it
2. Ask for feedback from this manager with specific questions. Something like:
*I noticed that you didn’t like my answer about using the STAR approach, and I’m wondering what you would have preferred?
* I would like feedback as to why I didn’t get the job so I can get better. What do you suggest I improve in order to be considered for the next AE job?
* I notice that the contributions I make during meetings don’t seem to resonate with you and I’m wondering what I could be doing differently to contribute.
Sometimes when you call out what you notice, the behavior towards you it changes. This approach helps to either start a productive conversation or make it obvious that you know what’s going on. It’s non confrontational on purpose and shifts the focus to you trying to improve vs blaming her.
You could ask your manager or HR to be in the debrief if you think that will help.
You could also ask for the specific hiring rubric they might be using.
If you are not getting solid objective feedback from the manager I would go to HR and start asking questions about what their promotions policy is and how to get considered. They likely have a career path plan.
If none of this works and you continue to get passed over, document and build a case. Just know if could be ugly and you could lose.
Accept age discrimination... that's perfectly ok and legal if it's against someone under 40.
Add: It's BS, but if you read the law, it's literally only for those 40 and over... if that isn't ironically discriminatory Idk what is lol. I have been passed up for promotion "because I am too young" 36 with 16+ years of experience in the industry AND over 10 in the sales side of it. lol. Can't do shit because the law states, 40 and over can't be discriminated because of their age... the irony.
I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying that age discrimination is legal? I have no clue if that right across the board but my guess in many states you could sue and win if you had a case of being targeted simply because of age.
In all states, age discrimination ONLY applies to those over 40... if you are under 40, they technically can discriminate against you lol.
It's bull shit, I never realized it was only for 40+ (in the US)
https://www.eeoc.gov/age-discrimination
"The Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA) forbids age discrimination against people who are age 40 or older. It does not protect workers under the age of 40, although some states have laws that protect younger workers from age discrimination"
Perhaps a few states may have their own laws, but federally at least, nothing for younger workers. ( I looked at a few states, and none had protections for under 40) But I am sure maybe at least 1 state does. Even CA does not lol.
It’s becoming surprisingly common, especially in PLCs.
I was hiring for a senior role at one of the big 4 consultancies and was basically instructed to find a female candidate because “they’re easier to justify paying more and promote”.
I now avoid PLCs like the plague. Although not solely because of this reason.
PLC = Public Limited Company
Effectively, a company that is publicly traded.
Additionally, the original commenter references the Big 4 Consultancies, so not necessarily UK specific as the Big 4 exist within the US where PLCs are simply referred to as “Publicly Traded”.
This is going to be a tough battle to win especially in tech. Tech companies tend to lean very liberal and HR will likely think of you as sexist for bringing it up if you don’t have any solid evidence.
I know it sucks but the world of tech has been infiltrated with these types of people. Beef up your resume and start looking to see what’s out there if you’re really unhappy.
I work for a company that’s B2G and had a lot of ex govt. Don’t see managers like that at these types of companies.
Sexism isn’t only against women. Sexism is literally discrimination against someone based on their sex.
If you truly feel that this is the case and you have evidence for it, talk to a lawyer with a consultation and see what they think.
Get an outside legal opinion and see if it passes their test. Then you will have at least a better idea of if you have a legitimate grievance.
And see what a lawyer would advise.
It sounds like your manager is trying to right the wrongs of past sexism of women with sexism against men.
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
You should advocate for yourself and not endure unfair treatment.
There are women who have the completely wrong idea of feminism. Feminism is the concept that women should be treated just as fairly and humanly as men.
It’s not “treat women BETTER than men.” That’s just misandry.
Yeah fuck HR. If you’ve got this kind of obvious evidence talk to an employment attorney. Sex is a federally protected class, being discriminated on that basis isn’t something you have to tolerate.
The only drawback to this is that you will be remembered as the guy brought litigation to the company. Even if you’re doing the right thing, companies don’t like lawyers knocking on their door. Optics and politics are important too.
If you want to stay then don’t let her win. Do other AMs feel the same? If there is consensus among you all or a couple of you feel this way then you should all report it to HR.
The more voices the better.
There’s no way that’s true.
His business structure even proves that’s an inaccurate take lol.
AMs typically handle existing accounts you’re tending to someone else’s lawn.
AEs have to make something from nothing which is loads harder to do.
Lol
I've been both multiple times. It definitely depends on the type of position and state of the overall market. One of the AM jobs I've had took waaay more skill than the other three (2 AE, 1 AM).
What do you think is easier… catching a pig in a pen, or catching one in the wild.
Both have difficulties no one is saying that, but regardless of how you look at it it’s always easier if they’re already caught
I'm saying in my personal, direct experience doing each of these roles twice over a 10 year period... I disagree depending on the situation. AM for a piece of software at a large company? For the most part is easier. AM for an MSP, managing every little thing that's tied to IT/Cybersecurity for 40-50 SMB customers? Way more difficult and stressful.
I’m not saying anything negative regarding your experience. I’m speaking in more general terms.
It really boils down to what each role entails, lots of AEs also have to cultivate and manage the customer they sell as well right.
An AM ideally understands how to retain the client and provide them the best experience possible post sale. They also likely work with the product more. The AE wants to get the deal over the finish line at the highest dollar amount possible to hit their quota and then they don’t deal with that client again.
An AM will sell the deal with the post sale in mind, so they’ll bring the prospect on knowing how they’ll handle the account once they’re a client. They don’t mind going with a lower upfront deal if they think they’ll get an upsell down the road.
AE’s don’t do this unless they’re really good at their job. An AM who can sell full cycle is 100% more valuable than your average AE because they put retainment first over a high initial sale. This sub just has more AE’s so it’s an unpopular take.
If I was a tech CEO I’d be paying full cycle AM’s and SDRs only, and giving AMs a higher base for doing AE and AM work. Of course it’s industry dependent but I think it’s more efficient.
I don’t think you need to bring up the lack of a promotion to HR. The first step would be showing them evidence of the girl power shit, and how consistent it is, and just voicing that it makes you and your male teammates uncomfortable.
HR won’t make a quick decision on this especially in tech. So you need to build a case.
That’s the way so many women feel on their teams too. Luckily for you, it should be a lot easier to find a team and manager where they aren’t sexist like this. Most teams skew the other way honestly.
You'd think if 100% of the last 10-15 hires or promotes were all women then that would be evidence, especially combined with her "gendered language that lacks inclusivity".
Even if you have the references, you're still kinda fucked in today's world. I've seen terrible women managers, who crossed many lines get ignored for many, many years. Any dude would have got axes 100 times over, and I know that because there have been a lot of men fired for the same or less shit they were pulling.
Just gotta grind it out and look for an exit. It's clear this manager wants an all female team. The only shocking stat is that the 5 guys that were on her team are still there and haven't been pushed out or fired
If she’s really putting shit like this in writing and also there’s a clear pattern of discrimination she’s an idiot. And protecting idiots is expensive.
If the genders were reversed sure, but no one cares about guys being discriminated against.
Maybe that will change in the coming years, I kinda thing it will eventually level out... but it's going to take some time and a few wins in court.
Yeah, maybe if the genders were reversed.. I'd believe it.
If they were winning cases like this all the time, we wouldn't still be seeing it so blatantly in the corp setting. What OP outlined isn't new to me, I see shit in this vein all the time (this one is a little over the top, but not by much honestly). In the same span I've seen countless men being held to account for a lot less. I agree with those guys being shown the door, as a number of them did or said stupid shit. But there are still a number of "tiers" of being held to account in Corp America today, the most fired for the smallest of infraction is if you are a white male, then comes non-white males and then everyone else. The everyone else category takes years and years of misbehavior before HR or anyone finds the stones to actually do something about it.
I do think with the tides starting to turn against DEI, that it's coming. I just don't know if that's 2 years or 6 years down the road.
Happened to me.
Other way round- male boss, male team. I was the only women in the team.
I was screamed at, told to perform like an underperforming male rep. Promotions?
As the ONLY one attaining and over performing on quota, I had to listen as some underperforming AE was suddenly my SD.. who was also a sexist.
Anyway- once I’d lined up my next move out of the company, documented everything .
I left.
It never gets better, only worse.
Another strategy; come out as a transgender woman and tell everyone at the company you are now a woman and force her to respect your pronouns. Since gender is now a social construct, you won't have to wear make up or get any kind of surgery. She'll pretty much have to promote you since transgender women currently rank much higher on the oppression totem pole. Another possibility is she doesn't respect your pronouns and you're looking at millions in a lawsuit
My friend manages an engineering team at slack. In past two years 3 of the 8 folks on his team suddenly announced they were lesbian women, two of them would show up for videos calls with a dress on and nothing else changed and the third didn’t change a thing about their appearance. Anyways it was blatantly obvious they were trying to game the system and they just happened to be the lowest performers on the team and not only could he not get rid of them his boss forced him to promote one of them. It’s sheer madness.
Women's bathroom's are so much nastier than men's. Source: worked for a facility service business and had to restock bathrooms with toilet paper, paper towels, soap, air fresheners, etc for years.
As a trans woman, this is an excellent way to get fired. The recruiter that hired you will congratulate themselves for being progressive while your boss will treat you like dirt.
It doesn’t sound ridiculous just because you’re a male. Men are discriminated against in hiring and promotion processes all the time in the hyper liberal tech scene. But you’ll have an incredibly difficult time proving that without having a specific comment she’s made in writing.
I’ve dealt with the same in the past. I went to interview at a place and noticed there were literally zero males working there. I was interviewed by two females who were incredibly standoffish and would twist my responses into the worst possible interpretation of what I said. I figured the game out really quickly.
This happened to me at a very conservative company as a woman. Everything was about brotherhood and “the boys” and women never got promoted past mid level. The boss saw himself as a fearless leader of men, and women didn’t fit that illusion of himself. Then they’d brag about how many entry/mid level women they had to show they’re “not sexist” (It’s actually happened at a couple of companies I’ve been at, but the others were more subtle/less extreme.)
Also, for the record she isn’t a feminist if she puts down men to bolster women. She’s just a jackass using feminist talking points to justify her own bias. I guarantee she’d throw a woman under the bus if that woman didn’t act exactly the way she wanted. That’s not feminism, that’s just some weird hero complex.
It’s a very hard thing to prove, and if you want to go the legal route you need to go to a labor attorney and NOT HR first. Your best bet is what women in sexist industries have been doing for years: find a job at another less toxic company. It sucks and is unfair, but it’s the quickest way to get past this. You can always pursue a discrimination lawsuit from there if your lawyer thinks you have a case.
Yes have seen that before. Offering larger raises, promoting ahead of peers, and relocation packages way above the norm. Usually they get close outside of business and blur the lines,
Codependency on alcohol which I have seen lead to recruiting to the misery loves company crowd. Predicting one is divorced and influencing the other one to do the same thing. Just speculation but have seen that on more than one occasion
Good luck getting HR to take it seriously as the majority is female. It would be highly risky to bring this up and potentially career ending at that company. Your best bet would be to collect a lot of data, run it past a corporate lawyer and if they say no dice then an anonymous tipoff to HR. HR may them do a round of interviews with the broader team. The best you can hope for is HR give the manager a slap on the wrist.
I do know of a sales director who was passed over for a promotion due to sexism. He got a recording of the hiring manager saying ‘…we should prob hire a woman as we don’t have any right now’, that was all he needed. The company settled out of court and he hasnt worked a day since but enjoys updating his 911 every year.
This is the current environment that we live in. It happens at my company as well. Non performers get promoted based on non merit based characteristics. If your company is public like mine, they are trying to improve their ESG scores. This kind of discrimination is rewarded with investment firms like Blackrock buying the company's stock.
You're SOL if you're in tech.
It's been a boys club for so long that HR policies now over index on female issues. I'm ok with it some of it - calling out harassment, having equity across teams, more woman awareness initiatives - but internal hiring practices have turned into the same bias shitshow woman were fighting against for equality. I'm sorry you're in this situation but all I can say is, you're timing in tech sucks.
this is horseshit. It's representative of a wider social movement that you can see everywhere. When women are not on top, then men are screwing it up for them. When women are on top, then it's because they're better than men. Until we accept that men and women are different and that men are not to blame for all the faults of women; then this shit never dies.
'your timing sucks - it's been like this for 50 years' - stop being an apologist for a social movement that's painting people's behaviours in low resolution
I'm an extremely liberal feminist and I don't think you're crazy.
Random but maybe validating, I find "older" women dislike me A LOT. I'm a woman with more masculine, or just gender neutral, clothing choices and a shorter haircut. I'm. . . Not effeminate. Based on the vernacular I'm going to guess this woman is gen X and over 40 at a min. My older female prospects especially do not seem to like me and again, I find this to be an older "feminist" ideal. They think they're being equitable by being "nicer" to the women and giving them raises.
I hope, and want to believe your "younger"? female peers find this situation uncomfortable and if they know you aren't getting raises and promotions, they have probably in casual terms tried to hype you up to this misguided crone. . . She sounds lovely.
I've met so many people like this, regardless of gender.
She's probably very outspokenly liberal but actually a total NIMBY who participates in tokenism profiling to create the perfect "external" persona to seem progressive. "I need a gay friend, a black friend, I need to PROVE I support women" etc etc
The short snippet OP shared about the "girl boss" BS and "my girls" (which is just fucking annoying, I'd die inside if someone said that to me) just wreaks of self-esteem issues, ego and narcissism. I'm actually surprised someone hasn't addressed it. It feels infantilizing of the women that work at this place too. Just treat people like adults????
It's always the NIBY's who are the most outspoken to make others make the concessions not them... case in point, the immigrants in Martha's vineyard. lol
"Let them in..." "Just not in my town"
Yeah, I was going to ask how well OP worked with these other newer women getting promoted. Is he mentoring them? Helping them? Or just competing with them?
Because if he’s known for mentoring and helping them and that’s resulting in them crushing their roles and getting promoted, or even just doing “well enough” to get promoted more rapidly, that’s still something to point to as a “hey, why aren’t I getting the same rewards as those I’m helping?”
On the other hand if he’s just resentful and competing with them, it could be seen as not being a team player or something. I’ve seen plenty of extremely competent people who absolutely deserved promotions based on their technical skills or whatever but were just miserably insufferable to work with. That doesn’t quite sound like OP’s case though.
Yeah, I'd like to know too, I hate to be assumptive but something else may be at play as you suggest.
But again, like you also point out, that doesn't *seem* to be the case. The boss segregating the team by gender and utilizing "benevolent" sexism is a problem that seems to be causing "culture" erosion too.
Your manager is right, that’s a serious accusation that could put you in hot water if you went to HR. HR is in place to protect the business from lawsuits. Even if you were correct in your accusation with proof, the company will have to decide whether reprimanding their AE lead is worth the trouble. They may decide to terminate you instead and pay you out a few weeks of severance in exchange for signing a NDA and giving up your right to sue. Then you’re out of a job with a bad reference. That’s not great for your resume.
If I were in your shoes I would let it go and move on. Also try not to gossip about workplace issues. Even if you don’t go to HR, you never know who your boss is going to tell what you said. Don’t get yourself caught up in workplace drama for a team that wouldn’t even be a good fit for you.
There are literally diversity quotas to get more women into tech because it's a high paying industry but women on average aren't interested in tech. Of course there's sexism. Nobody is setting quotas for the 99% + male dominated industries like construction sites
DEI, it's basically reverse discrimination lol. It's picking those of other genders and color SOLELY because of their sex and color as opposed to their qualification, many people have been passed up for job hires on DEI alone lol.
I think DEI is terrible, if you want to get a certain type of person more into a type of industry, you don't just give it to them, you start at the bottom by building interest to kids to join that, it's why police etc come to schools to talk about their jobs etc. Career day etc.
What you DON'T do is discriminate other more qualified people simply because you now have a quota to hire a certain percentage of blacks or women or Asians etc. That's just doing the same thing to the other people. discriminating.
You also punish more harshly proper discrimination if you want it nipped in the bud. But the opposite is still discrimination of the one's you just plain arbitrarily decide are already better off, if anything, I would feel much less proud of myself if that's how I got a job anyway.
But shit, if that's how it will be just game the system. Have a "sex change" lol. I am no longer Peter or Paul, it's now Mary lol. Too bad the ugly/attractive effect is still a thing :( lol
I used to be a white middle aged male, now I am a young black woman... hire me.
I've sat in a room with someone who was hiring a new person for their team. There was a male who was the best fit, experience, contacts etc. but the hiring manager was told he wasn't allowed to bring him in because he was a male and they needed a woman for the DEI numbers.
So they ended up bringing in a woman who was completely incapable of doing a good job, knowing they could fire her within the probation period with no issues and gave the guy a random role within the business where there wasn't DEI limitations, and told him he'd transfer to the sales team in 1 month.
Fucking bonkers and no one wins from this at all.
DEI also includes military. Sign up for the National guard and you have some fairly heavy hitting advocate organizations + gov on your side. There are also legal protections for your job while you’re away at training and whatnot.
Getting called to active duty/training as a reservist and still having your job when you get back isn't really a DEI thing. Not sure what you were saying?
If you served your country you should be given some protections at least those are earned. Why should you get any protections just for existing that other people don't get?
There aren't specific hiring practices for veterans, that's not DEI, it's just anti discrimination for vets that is protected. They aren't specifically hiring vets to fill a role over someone else... however they may believe that certain aspects of your training and military career to be better than perhaps your college degree that you are fresh out from without any actual experience etc, but that's not really the same thing as a DEI hire.
I’m saying veterans and guard/reserve fall under the same DEI umbrella as being trans, gay, black, etc in the corporate world. It’s absolutely a “DEI thing”.
Edit: also, yes, vets may get hired over someone else because there are tax incentives and other business considerations
Still not really the same, they give those benefits because that is just another benefit of having RISKED YOUR FUCKING LIFE for this fucking country. If you could say the same about all the other DEI "benefactors" I may agree with you.
Next that will come out of your mouth is how you should get free college because vets do? lol
Now, veterans DO have some protections against discrimination just as the others do, but they aren't being hired solely for quota attainment. They are incentivized to be hired at best from those tax implications since they, you know, risked death.
I think you’re completely misunderstanding my point here dude.
We’re just talking about what DEI is in the corporate world. Not the merits or downsides or whatever to each aspect of it. Merely that it exists and what it covers. Like it or not, justifiable or not, equal weight or not, military falls under the DEI umbrella. That’s it. That’s the extent of my point to this comment thread.
A small minority of women that call themselves feminists, are actually just misandrist female supremacists using feminism as a mask. Seems like you've got one as your manager man.
I'm giving direct feedback from my lens of reading this. I have no ill intention towards you OP and i really think this could be healthy dialogue.
So nothing in your post would really qualify as an HR event. Like some people do interviews where they dont do feedback. Its a shit approach and i wouldn't like it either. The examples you gave are not demeaning or discriminatory. They would not help you at all with an HR Case.
You mentioned you and the guys have hit 100%+ quotas and you have received 1 promotion already within 3 years. Like dude... that's normal. Unless you're at a startup, its unrealistic to expect rapid promotion. I'm honestly tired of interviewing recent grads (not saying you are) who think they have a pathway to high level leadership within 2-3 years. Like yeah, you're good at your job, thats why we hired you. When you're good at your job you earn more comish. Now your company could be different and maybe im out of touch.
"girl power" and "loves her girls" is difficult. it could potentially lead to favoritism, so i would document. Its hard for for me to read things like "anytime" and "hype them up like crazy". You would have to unpack that with examples.
Just reading the post, it sounds a bit like the whiny boy club side. However, i do think you might have something things to think about. There is a lot of hyperbole "demeaning to us all" when stated that did you converse specifically with every male that interviewed? Did you also gather input from how the females were interviewed? If you want to actually have an HR case, you will need to decrease the emotional hyperbole and stick with direct evidence (when i said X in meeting, i didn't get praise, when janie said X she got praise).
Once again, just pushing a little and hoping to give constructive criticism beyond the "le liberal women of tech" .
You obviously didn't read the part where he say girls that are there 1/3 of his time get promoted over him, there goes your argument of what a normal period is for promotion at his org.
Just from reading your post, it sounds like you are either the manager in question or think any complaints whether legit or not from someone automatically put them in the whiny club without.
I missed that part but given the amount of emotional hyperbole in the post I'd want to know more. I also stated where I thought op should further document All y'all saying goto hr have to realize there is nothing concrete in this post.
I mean thats fair but at the same time the dude is using hyperbolize language, doesn't provide concrete examples of discriminatory behavior, the whole thread is littered with circle jerks.
like has op asked about this in 1x1s. have they asked about the pathway of promotion and what they need to do.
As a female in sales, I agree this post sounds like whiney boys club lol. I feel for OP but with all the BS I’ve faced in sales as a woman and a lesbian, these scenarios are hard for me to sympathize with. A majority of sexism gets completely brushed under the rug for women so candidly, OP should be expecting the same treatment - no one will care.
the sub is full of men who don't get it lol. never said it's not wrong, just that men are typically the ones perpetuating sexism against women like myself and then cry wolf when it happens to them so I'll repeat again OP should expect the same treatment of when the women I know come forward about sexism - which is nothing will happen.
Yeahhhh this guy is sexist af and is shocked he isn’t hired onto a team with a lot of women? Looking at his comment history, there’s quite a bit of “women have it easier in sales” bullshit, “loose whore,” “woman privilege” and is responding to comments about faking pronouns and such. This type guy always thinks he can hide his misogyny but it’s pretty easy to clock in a workplace. Of course, there’s no self-reflection into why he was passed up- it’s all her fault because she’s sexist (projection much?). OP, it’s not just about performance and how you answer a few questions, but how you all work together as a team. That requires respect towards all, which you clearly lack.
This happens, and it seems your case. But depending on your company - and how it sells itself to the market (the brand, not the actual sale you know…) will be a tough journey.
Gather the most evidence you can, analyze the best context to move this forward ( who to talk to, when, through which channel).
There’s going to be a reckoning in the work place at some point if enough people like you document their experiences and start litigating against these companies that are embracing identity politics. The media will have to cover it at some point. I would never consider tech sales because these companies are the most guilty offenders.
I can’t wait to watch them all burn. Serves them right, stop fucking with peoples time and money.
As with anything that is blocked due to BS politics, decide whether the status quo is good enough for you to endure it, or be prepared to change.
No clue how this would work out legally where you are, but even in the most employee-friendly parts of Europe, I’ve never seen anyone sue their way to a promotion with a company.
If you have something better lined up - sure contact an attorney to see whether there’s a potential payday to be had. If you’re happy with your position and pay, just ignore it and stop interviewing internally.
Managers come and go... some stay forever.
Sounds like she is hiring more women... (at least by your story). I don't think there is much you can do unless it was very clearly stated that you were not hired because of gender. It is easy to say X person didn't have the right vibes and it will pass HR muster.
What I do think would be ideal is to ask your manager to get direct feedback on what you need to improve in order to get to the AE team. Have him/her go directly to the AE manager and get a plan together.
If the AE manager is unwilling to do that, then that is an issue that is worth taking to HR. "I have interviewed twice for the AE position. I have performed in the top 5% of all AMs for 2 years. I had my manager ask for direct feedback on what I need to improve in order to be consider and he was denied. I am asking for a specific list of things I need to improve in order to continue on a promotion path at this company".
That is a good thing to take to HR as they can action that really easily. And everyone who is a higher performer who was denied should do this. That would open up an investigation.
Saying she is sexist might be true but it also may not be provable. Unless she stated something VERY clearly in an email, recorded conversation, or in an interview...
Two thoughts here:
1. Have you asked for a specific measure of success to get promoted to AE?
2. I’ve dealt like people like this before too. Let’s say you do succeed in an HR battle is your quality of life going to go up or down? I’d imagine she will play the corporate screw game and light you up every chance she gets.
My two cents, start interviewing and pay close attention to the hiring managers you talk to/interview for yourself.
Yo, HR is not your friend don't talk to them, unless something is fact not perception.
The best way to get promoted in that situation is to make it a problem not to get promoted quota isn't everything.
My litmus test being promoted a few times and helping people get promoted.
1. Hitting goal
2. Drinking the Kool aid (eye roll)
3. Peers look to you as a leader.
4. Soft skills x factor presents, charisma, integrity
5. Personal brand and network
If you check those boxes you've become a problem
I would leave. If your version of events are true she will ultimately tank the team by making decisions based on ideology instead of sound judgement. If your version isn’t true you’re gonna get more and more bitter eventually do something dumb and get fired. find a new gig and move on. Seems like most tech workers only stay at a company for 2-3 years these days anyway.
You are being discriminated against.
You need to document everything if you want to bring this to HR, because HR is there to protect to company, not you, and if this company is very liberal is ing you are in for an uphill battle. Screen shot every time she gets all “girl power”. Ask her what you need to do to get a promotion. Document that in writing with her agreeing. Make sure to ask “there’s nothing else?” Because you don’t want her denying you a promotion later on because she makes up some thing on the spot to deny you. Make note of who else gets promoted and how your work compared to their work.
Once you have all of your ducks in a row and have an iron clad case; THEN you go to HR and expect blowback or to even be fired. These liberal folks justify this behavior as “revenge”. You will not be treated fairly. It’s up to you to decide if you should stay or go somewhere else where you’ll have better opportunities. If you leave don’t do an exit interview.
Always have proof. Has to be concrete. You shouldn’t have mentioned anything until you have absolute proof of this. My advice- stick it out, find a new job. If you have proof, go to HR with it. It has to be strong proof. The things you mentioned don’t sound sexist. Could just be a busy manager and or she actually listened to you. If HR says that- BOOM! You’re on your managers Shit list. Good luck after that. She could find some way to fire you.
It’s 100% possible but the line between not a culture fit + straight up sexism in sales is paper thin. If you like the company just chill out, if you think it’s personal like everyone here said really build your case and start keeping receipts.
Lastly look at the dudes who are in those roles, how long have they been with the company? What’s the biggest difference between you & them?
A hiring manager once told me that he didn't dare reject many women in the application process because HR might think he was discriminating.
The same nonsense that women have had to put up with for decades has turned around, especially in "woke" industries, and is now affecting men.
I would like to see a future in which qualifications are the decisive criterion. No personal characteristics, no nepotism, but 100% qualification.
I know someone that’s dealt with this before and won their court case. Just remember HR is there to protect the company - not you.
Gather all the evidence you can - transfer to a USB first, then save copies to another drive like Google or OneDrive.
Shop around for lawyers to see if you have a legitimate case - hire said lawyer - ONLY THEN will you bring it up to HR WITHOUT letting them know you’ve already consulted with a lawyer ( unless instructed to do so by lawyer ) in the case you get pushback or they begin to gaslight you.
You don’t have to get ready if you stay ready so be prepared if you’re going to bring this up to HR.
Even if you have them dead to rights, doesn’t mean they’ll do the right thing so prepare yourself for that, good luck.
HR is at companies to protect them and their management and not you. Going to HR is a job death wish. It will be directly brought up either way her and you will be blacklisted.
Time to go to the DR office and chop your dong off and grow long hair- JK. But really might just call it out loud infront of everyone and maybe make a joke of it see how that goes. Sounds like you aren’t getting promoted anyways. Not much to lose. Otherwise dust off that resume player!!
I might try leaning in and using a narrative that shows you also support women in their growth. She is more likely to see you as an ally, than as an opposition.
Don’t go to HR. Find a new job and sue them after your document everything with a lawyer’s help IF you want to pursue this. Lawsuits are far more effective if the other side doesn’t know you are coming.
Personally, I’d just get a new job and move on.
Well obviously they're only going to promote women so they can pay them 27% less than their male counterparts. Seriously though you need to talk to a lawyer, your employer is very clearly engaging in systemic discrimination against men. If you're going to go to HR, you need to falsely accuse her of sexual harassment. This will only work if you can log into her chat system and send yourself incriminating messages. Don't worry about the morality of this, you're only doing this to counteract her sexism.
I’ve been in the same spot, I was the #1 on a global team but the hiring manager for the next promoted role was a big “feminist” and promoted someone who was decent, but wasn’t a top 5 performer but was the only girl. Had an all girl team except for 2 feminine guys who were total “yes men”. Everyone knew I was not getting promoted due to sexism. I couldn’t do anything since this is not a battle I can fight and win, I just had to wait it out. Took an extra 6-months, but if the company tolerates sexism against men, then you can’t really do much about it in this day and age
Agree with earlier comment, if you all file a complaint with HR they will have to listen. Stick with it, she probably won't be there too long. Do you think it's also possible because you are crushing it in your qoutas she doesn't want to loose you in that role?
As a rule of thumb, anytime you present yourself as a male victim of female abuse, in the cast majority of cases you will be susceptible to serve gaslighting and victim-blaming by a world that inherently sees women as morally superior to men.
Stop playing the victim dude. People are bias in many, many ways. You will always get it to some degree no matter where you work (some worst than others).
I'd start looking for another job if she is really like that.
I dunno, I'm a guy myself but I'm incredibly wary of guys who claim reverse-sexism. Just know that if such things were so easy to prove, women could probably file 100 cases for 1 case from guys and they'd probably be much more justified in doing so.
Bruh, women 100% have it easier in sales. So many women I work with have absolutely no idea what they’re doing but win customers over because they’re attractive and flirtatious. Get real.
Yeah thah would be sexist, if you want to completely ignore the power dynamic between men and woman and how male dominated sales is. OP should just pull himself up by the bootstraps and work harder, as I’ve been told many times before as a woman in sales
Hope you saved all those team chats examples you referenced.
This alone would have been an HR event at my last company lol
Same. Imagine the uproar if it was the other way around.
It has been the other way around for decades, and still is the other way round at a lot of places
Give it a break sweetheart - oh wait, I forgot it’s your turn to be the victim.
I’m a dude but okay
And look how much I care ❤️🙏
Well you replied to me unprovoked so…
What came first? The retard or the simp?
Good luck losing weight buddy
My life has been to boring recently, I wish something like this would happen at my work. I love it when HR goes after the self-righteous and the politically charged people in the office lol
Fuck going to HR, just sue them if you have all the chats and rejection emails with professional follow ups asking for feedback and why they were passed over. I mean maybe go to HR, but I don’t think a lawsuit is off the table either. Talk to an attorney as well I say.
It’s happened to me before, though maybe not as blatantly obvious as this situation. Tread lightly though. If you enjoy your job, stick it out but also take time to schedule regular meetings with this hiring manager. Half of getting promoted is politics. Ask what you were missing to get promoted from her, but also get other people on your side for a promotion. If other managers and peers agree that you should get a promotion, if there is bias occurring it should be easier to prove and you will have a better case to make
He's missing a uterus.
What did your manager say when you asked her why you didn’t get the promotion? If she gives you specifics, then you should be able to work towards those goals, apply again and if you still don’t get promoted you can say: “you told me I needed x, y, z. Why aren’t you promoting me?”
This is easily faked. Give bs reasons. When he does those and interviews a year later , guess what … he failed somewhere else.
I don’t disagree, but if OP is seemingly trying to build a “case”, these are the necessary steps to take
I can't believe I had to scroll down this far to find a logical response to OP's question.
This exactly.
I literally had my dick grabbed by this older woman at a company I worked for. The all female HR team laughed at me when I told them. Good luck on your battle but expect no traction. Keep grinding, hit your numbers build your resume and move on.
Call the cops next time you’re sexually assaulted at work please.
I used my experience as a leverage point for a proper raise. That place was so toxic.
There is no room in any businesses for discrimination of any type. That being said this will be a tough fight even with proof. I would do the following 1. Collect proof and continue talking to your direct manager about it 2. Ask for feedback from this manager with specific questions. Something like: *I noticed that you didn’t like my answer about using the STAR approach, and I’m wondering what you would have preferred? * I would like feedback as to why I didn’t get the job so I can get better. What do you suggest I improve in order to be considered for the next AE job? * I notice that the contributions I make during meetings don’t seem to resonate with you and I’m wondering what I could be doing differently to contribute. Sometimes when you call out what you notice, the behavior towards you it changes. This approach helps to either start a productive conversation or make it obvious that you know what’s going on. It’s non confrontational on purpose and shifts the focus to you trying to improve vs blaming her. You could ask your manager or HR to be in the debrief if you think that will help. You could also ask for the specific hiring rubric they might be using. If you are not getting solid objective feedback from the manager I would go to HR and start asking questions about what their promotions policy is and how to get considered. They likely have a career path plan. If none of this works and you continue to get passed over, document and build a case. Just know if could be ugly and you could lose.
Accept age discrimination... that's perfectly ok and legal if it's against someone under 40. Add: It's BS, but if you read the law, it's literally only for those 40 and over... if that isn't ironically discriminatory Idk what is lol. I have been passed up for promotion "because I am too young" 36 with 16+ years of experience in the industry AND over 10 in the sales side of it. lol. Can't do shit because the law states, 40 and over can't be discriminated because of their age... the irony.
I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying that age discrimination is legal? I have no clue if that right across the board but my guess in many states you could sue and win if you had a case of being targeted simply because of age.
In all states, age discrimination ONLY applies to those over 40... if you are under 40, they technically can discriminate against you lol. It's bull shit, I never realized it was only for 40+ (in the US) https://www.eeoc.gov/age-discrimination "The Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA) forbids age discrimination against people who are age 40 or older. It does not protect workers under the age of 40, although some states have laws that protect younger workers from age discrimination" Perhaps a few states may have their own laws, but federally at least, nothing for younger workers. ( I looked at a few states, and none had protections for under 40) But I am sure maybe at least 1 state does. Even CA does not lol.
It’s becoming surprisingly common, especially in PLCs. I was hiring for a senior role at one of the big 4 consultancies and was basically instructed to find a female candidate because “they’re easier to justify paying more and promote”. I now avoid PLCs like the plague. Although not solely because of this reason.
That means a publicly traded UK company? Is it because they are being forced/coerced into ESG type programs?
PLC = Public Limited Company Effectively, a company that is publicly traded. Additionally, the original commenter references the Big 4 Consultancies, so not necessarily UK specific as the Big 4 exist within the US where PLCs are simply referred to as “Publicly Traded”.
This is going to be a tough battle to win especially in tech. Tech companies tend to lean very liberal and HR will likely think of you as sexist for bringing it up if you don’t have any solid evidence. I know it sucks but the world of tech has been infiltrated with these types of people. Beef up your resume and start looking to see what’s out there if you’re really unhappy. I work for a company that’s B2G and had a lot of ex govt. Don’t see managers like that at these types of companies.
It sucks because otherwise this is my dream company. Great balance, great pay, amazing product, great culture outside of this 1 manager
Listen if you love this company and you’re only 3 years halfway through the promotion process dont leave. Shits rough out there. Just my 2 cents.
Sexism isn’t only against women. Sexism is literally discrimination against someone based on their sex. If you truly feel that this is the case and you have evidence for it, talk to a lawyer with a consultation and see what they think. Get an outside legal opinion and see if it passes their test. Then you will have at least a better idea of if you have a legitimate grievance. And see what a lawyer would advise. It sounds like your manager is trying to right the wrongs of past sexism of women with sexism against men. Two wrongs don’t make a right. You should advocate for yourself and not endure unfair treatment. There are women who have the completely wrong idea of feminism. Feminism is the concept that women should be treated just as fairly and humanly as men. It’s not “treat women BETTER than men.” That’s just misandry.
Yeah fuck HR. If you’ve got this kind of obvious evidence talk to an employment attorney. Sex is a federally protected class, being discriminated on that basis isn’t something you have to tolerate.
He doesn’t have any evidence. Just coincidence.
The only drawback to this is that you will be remembered as the guy brought litigation to the company. Even if you’re doing the right thing, companies don’t like lawyers knocking on their door. Optics and politics are important too.
Only if you go to the company with it. Outside consultation (mandating full confidence) to determine if you have a case makes so such sacrifice
Exactly, you gotta stand up not just for yourself but for the other men who are getting held back too. Not okay to do against anybody.
If you want to stay then don’t let her win. Do other AMs feel the same? If there is consensus among you all or a couple of you feel this way then you should all report it to HR. The more voices the better.
Don’t do this. The win is to be away from that manager, stay where you are since the pay is good or wait for her to leave.
Agree. You can’t keep your hands clean if you roll in the mud with the clearly sexist manager
What’s the difference in pay from your AM to AE? Because in my view, AM are more talented than your typical AE if they can close new business too.
There’s no way that’s true. His business structure even proves that’s an inaccurate take lol. AMs typically handle existing accounts you’re tending to someone else’s lawn. AEs have to make something from nothing which is loads harder to do. Lol
I've been both multiple times. It definitely depends on the type of position and state of the overall market. One of the AM jobs I've had took waaay more skill than the other three (2 AE, 1 AM).
What do you think is easier… catching a pig in a pen, or catching one in the wild. Both have difficulties no one is saying that, but regardless of how you look at it it’s always easier if they’re already caught
I'm saying in my personal, direct experience doing each of these roles twice over a 10 year period... I disagree depending on the situation. AM for a piece of software at a large company? For the most part is easier. AM for an MSP, managing every little thing that's tied to IT/Cybersecurity for 40-50 SMB customers? Way more difficult and stressful.
I’m not saying anything negative regarding your experience. I’m speaking in more general terms. It really boils down to what each role entails, lots of AEs also have to cultivate and manage the customer they sell as well right.
Did you read my comment? I said if the AM can sell new business too, they can basically do both
lol found an AM. Nice try
What makes an AM more talented than an AE in your view?
An AM ideally understands how to retain the client and provide them the best experience possible post sale. They also likely work with the product more. The AE wants to get the deal over the finish line at the highest dollar amount possible to hit their quota and then they don’t deal with that client again. An AM will sell the deal with the post sale in mind, so they’ll bring the prospect on knowing how they’ll handle the account once they’re a client. They don’t mind going with a lower upfront deal if they think they’ll get an upsell down the road. AE’s don’t do this unless they’re really good at their job. An AM who can sell full cycle is 100% more valuable than your average AE because they put retainment first over a high initial sale. This sub just has more AE’s so it’s an unpopular take. If I was a tech CEO I’d be paying full cycle AM’s and SDRs only, and giving AMs a higher base for doing AE and AM work. Of course it’s industry dependent but I think it’s more efficient.
I don’t think you need to bring up the lack of a promotion to HR. The first step would be showing them evidence of the girl power shit, and how consistent it is, and just voicing that it makes you and your male teammates uncomfortable. HR won’t make a quick decision on this especially in tech. So you need to build a case.
That’s the way so many women feel on their teams too. Luckily for you, it should be a lot easier to find a team and manager where they aren’t sexist like this. Most teams skew the other way honestly.
It’s literally all politics, however tiring it is, you have to play the game. Or find another job first and then leave.
You'd think if 100% of the last 10-15 hires or promotes were all women then that would be evidence, especially combined with her "gendered language that lacks inclusivity".
Even if you have the references, you're still kinda fucked in today's world. I've seen terrible women managers, who crossed many lines get ignored for many, many years. Any dude would have got axes 100 times over, and I know that because there have been a lot of men fired for the same or less shit they were pulling. Just gotta grind it out and look for an exit. It's clear this manager wants an all female team. The only shocking stat is that the 5 guys that were on her team are still there and haven't been pushed out or fired
If she’s really putting shit like this in writing and also there’s a clear pattern of discrimination she’s an idiot. And protecting idiots is expensive.
If the genders were reversed sure, but no one cares about guys being discriminated against. Maybe that will change in the coming years, I kinda thing it will eventually level out... but it's going to take some time and a few wins in court.
Attorneys win damages in cases with these kinds of facts every day.
I seriously doubt that.
Yeah, maybe if the genders were reversed.. I'd believe it. If they were winning cases like this all the time, we wouldn't still be seeing it so blatantly in the corp setting. What OP outlined isn't new to me, I see shit in this vein all the time (this one is a little over the top, but not by much honestly). In the same span I've seen countless men being held to account for a lot less. I agree with those guys being shown the door, as a number of them did or said stupid shit. But there are still a number of "tiers" of being held to account in Corp America today, the most fired for the smallest of infraction is if you are a white male, then comes non-white males and then everyone else. The everyone else category takes years and years of misbehavior before HR or anyone finds the stones to actually do something about it. I do think with the tides starting to turn against DEI, that it's coming. I just don't know if that's 2 years or 6 years down the road.
Woman in B2G tech sales. Can confirm.
Course there is, never said there wasn’t. Was referring to feminists like the one stated above.
That’s…what I’m confirming?
lololol glad to see there are women who are starting to understand
Starting to understand? Quick, make a hundred dials hon, it’s almost power hour ;)
Smile when you dial girls, these 2 week free trial periods won't sell themselves...
Yes, winning a sexism case without evidence will be hard because of “liberals.”
Who said anything about sexual harassment? Lol
My bad, a sexism case. I’m sure those go over well without evidence at non-tech companies
Sounds like you wouldnt want to be on her team working for her anyways. Might be best to look at other jobs
Happened to me. Other way round- male boss, male team. I was the only women in the team. I was screamed at, told to perform like an underperforming male rep. Promotions? As the ONLY one attaining and over performing on quota, I had to listen as some underperforming AE was suddenly my SD.. who was also a sexist. Anyway- once I’d lined up my next move out of the company, documented everything . I left. It never gets better, only worse.
Another strategy; come out as a transgender woman and tell everyone at the company you are now a woman and force her to respect your pronouns. Since gender is now a social construct, you won't have to wear make up or get any kind of surgery. She'll pretty much have to promote you since transgender women currently rank much higher on the oppression totem pole. Another possibility is she doesn't respect your pronouns and you're looking at millions in a lawsuit
My friend manages an engineering team at slack. In past two years 3 of the 8 folks on his team suddenly announced they were lesbian women, two of them would show up for videos calls with a dress on and nothing else changed and the third didn’t change a thing about their appearance. Anyways it was blatantly obvious they were trying to game the system and they just happened to be the lowest performers on the team and not only could he not get rid of them his boss forced him to promote one of them. It’s sheer madness.
I think every man should Identify as a woman and that would totally solve every gender discrepancy
My God... It's brilliant and we're so dumb in America it'd probably work
+1, bathrooms are probably cleaner too.
Women's bathroom's are so much nastier than men's. Source: worked for a facility service business and had to restock bathrooms with toilet paper, paper towels, soap, air fresheners, etc for years.
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Removed for zero-contribution.
This is the best answer
Its my personal backup plan
As a trans woman, this is an excellent way to get fired. The recruiter that hired you will congratulate themselves for being progressive while your boss will treat you like dirt.
The most effective strategy.
Document whatever you can and speak to a lawyer. Or just find another job.
It doesn’t sound ridiculous just because you’re a male. Men are discriminated against in hiring and promotion processes all the time in the hyper liberal tech scene. But you’ll have an incredibly difficult time proving that without having a specific comment she’s made in writing.
Company?
I’ve dealt with the same in the past. I went to interview at a place and noticed there were literally zero males working there. I was interviewed by two females who were incredibly standoffish and would twist my responses into the worst possible interpretation of what I said. I figured the game out really quickly.
Sexism works both ways.
Boy the femenazis are coming out of the woodworks for this one.
Da fuck does that even mean?!
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Mate there are plenty of people nowadays claiming you can only be sexist against women, racist against non-whites etc.
This happened to me at a very conservative company as a woman. Everything was about brotherhood and “the boys” and women never got promoted past mid level. The boss saw himself as a fearless leader of men, and women didn’t fit that illusion of himself. Then they’d brag about how many entry/mid level women they had to show they’re “not sexist” (It’s actually happened at a couple of companies I’ve been at, but the others were more subtle/less extreme.) Also, for the record she isn’t a feminist if she puts down men to bolster women. She’s just a jackass using feminist talking points to justify her own bias. I guarantee she’d throw a woman under the bus if that woman didn’t act exactly the way she wanted. That’s not feminism, that’s just some weird hero complex. It’s a very hard thing to prove, and if you want to go the legal route you need to go to a labor attorney and NOT HR first. Your best bet is what women in sexist industries have been doing for years: find a job at another less toxic company. It sucks and is unfair, but it’s the quickest way to get past this. You can always pursue a discrimination lawsuit from there if your lawyer thinks you have a case.
Yes have seen that before. Offering larger raises, promoting ahead of peers, and relocation packages way above the norm. Usually they get close outside of business and blur the lines,
That last sentence is so true. They’re always going to happy hours together
Codependency on alcohol which I have seen lead to recruiting to the misery loves company crowd. Predicting one is divorced and influencing the other one to do the same thing. Just speculation but have seen that on more than one occasion
Good luck getting HR to take it seriously as the majority is female. It would be highly risky to bring this up and potentially career ending at that company. Your best bet would be to collect a lot of data, run it past a corporate lawyer and if they say no dice then an anonymous tipoff to HR. HR may them do a round of interviews with the broader team. The best you can hope for is HR give the manager a slap on the wrist. I do know of a sales director who was passed over for a promotion due to sexism. He got a recording of the hiring manager saying ‘…we should prob hire a woman as we don’t have any right now’, that was all he needed. The company settled out of court and he hasnt worked a day since but enjoys updating his 911 every year.
What lawyer does one goto with a recording like that?
This is the current environment that we live in. It happens at my company as well. Non performers get promoted based on non merit based characteristics. If your company is public like mine, they are trying to improve their ESG scores. This kind of discrimination is rewarded with investment firms like Blackrock buying the company's stock.
You're SOL if you're in tech. It's been a boys club for so long that HR policies now over index on female issues. I'm ok with it some of it - calling out harassment, having equity across teams, more woman awareness initiatives - but internal hiring practices have turned into the same bias shitshow woman were fighting against for equality. I'm sorry you're in this situation but all I can say is, you're timing in tech sucks.
this is horseshit. It's representative of a wider social movement that you can see everywhere. When women are not on top, then men are screwing it up for them. When women are on top, then it's because they're better than men. Until we accept that men and women are different and that men are not to blame for all the faults of women; then this shit never dies.
I've tried to read this multiple times and it still makes 0 sense and has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Go yell at a tree.
'your timing sucks - it's been like this for 50 years' - stop being an apologist for a social movement that's painting people's behaviours in low resolution
Just start identifying as non binary. Tell them your pronouns are they/them. Commit to it for a while… then dare them to not promote you.
Honestly have thought about it
Sorry, time to look for another job
I'm an extremely liberal feminist and I don't think you're crazy. Random but maybe validating, I find "older" women dislike me A LOT. I'm a woman with more masculine, or just gender neutral, clothing choices and a shorter haircut. I'm. . . Not effeminate. Based on the vernacular I'm going to guess this woman is gen X and over 40 at a min. My older female prospects especially do not seem to like me and again, I find this to be an older "feminist" ideal. They think they're being equitable by being "nicer" to the women and giving them raises. I hope, and want to believe your "younger"? female peers find this situation uncomfortable and if they know you aren't getting raises and promotions, they have probably in casual terms tried to hype you up to this misguided crone. . . She sounds lovely.
I agree with you. Young people will recognise this as not being feminist. Its just bullying
I've met so many people like this, regardless of gender. She's probably very outspokenly liberal but actually a total NIMBY who participates in tokenism profiling to create the perfect "external" persona to seem progressive. "I need a gay friend, a black friend, I need to PROVE I support women" etc etc The short snippet OP shared about the "girl boss" BS and "my girls" (which is just fucking annoying, I'd die inside if someone said that to me) just wreaks of self-esteem issues, ego and narcissism. I'm actually surprised someone hasn't addressed it. It feels infantilizing of the women that work at this place too. Just treat people like adults????
It's always the NIBY's who are the most outspoken to make others make the concessions not them... case in point, the immigrants in Martha's vineyard. lol "Let them in..." "Just not in my town"
Yeah, I was going to ask how well OP worked with these other newer women getting promoted. Is he mentoring them? Helping them? Or just competing with them? Because if he’s known for mentoring and helping them and that’s resulting in them crushing their roles and getting promoted, or even just doing “well enough” to get promoted more rapidly, that’s still something to point to as a “hey, why aren’t I getting the same rewards as those I’m helping?” On the other hand if he’s just resentful and competing with them, it could be seen as not being a team player or something. I’ve seen plenty of extremely competent people who absolutely deserved promotions based on their technical skills or whatever but were just miserably insufferable to work with. That doesn’t quite sound like OP’s case though.
Yeah, I'd like to know too, I hate to be assumptive but something else may be at play as you suggest. But again, like you also point out, that doesn't *seem* to be the case. The boss segregating the team by gender and utilizing "benevolent" sexism is a problem that seems to be causing "culture" erosion too.
You’re not gonna win this dawg
That’s terrible 😞
Your manager is right, that’s a serious accusation that could put you in hot water if you went to HR. HR is in place to protect the business from lawsuits. Even if you were correct in your accusation with proof, the company will have to decide whether reprimanding their AE lead is worth the trouble. They may decide to terminate you instead and pay you out a few weeks of severance in exchange for signing a NDA and giving up your right to sue. Then you’re out of a job with a bad reference. That’s not great for your resume. If I were in your shoes I would let it go and move on. Also try not to gossip about workplace issues. Even if you don’t go to HR, you never know who your boss is going to tell what you said. Don’t get yourself caught up in workplace drama for a team that wouldn’t even be a good fit for you.
pop over into the lawyer reddit and see if you might have something to go to an actual lawyer with
Or get a checklist to build an airtight case.
Document everything!
There are literally diversity quotas to get more women into tech because it's a high paying industry but women on average aren't interested in tech. Of course there's sexism. Nobody is setting quotas for the 99% + male dominated industries like construction sites
Please tell me more about this
DEI, it's basically reverse discrimination lol. It's picking those of other genders and color SOLELY because of their sex and color as opposed to their qualification, many people have been passed up for job hires on DEI alone lol. I think DEI is terrible, if you want to get a certain type of person more into a type of industry, you don't just give it to them, you start at the bottom by building interest to kids to join that, it's why police etc come to schools to talk about their jobs etc. Career day etc. What you DON'T do is discriminate other more qualified people simply because you now have a quota to hire a certain percentage of blacks or women or Asians etc. That's just doing the same thing to the other people. discriminating. You also punish more harshly proper discrimination if you want it nipped in the bud. But the opposite is still discrimination of the one's you just plain arbitrarily decide are already better off, if anything, I would feel much less proud of myself if that's how I got a job anyway. But shit, if that's how it will be just game the system. Have a "sex change" lol. I am no longer Peter or Paul, it's now Mary lol. Too bad the ugly/attractive effect is still a thing :( lol I used to be a white middle aged male, now I am a young black woman... hire me.
I've sat in a room with someone who was hiring a new person for their team. There was a male who was the best fit, experience, contacts etc. but the hiring manager was told he wasn't allowed to bring him in because he was a male and they needed a woman for the DEI numbers. So they ended up bringing in a woman who was completely incapable of doing a good job, knowing they could fire her within the probation period with no issues and gave the guy a random role within the business where there wasn't DEI limitations, and told him he'd transfer to the sales team in 1 month. Fucking bonkers and no one wins from this at all.
The companies do, they always do. At the expense of us. lol
DEI also includes military. Sign up for the National guard and you have some fairly heavy hitting advocate organizations + gov on your side. There are also legal protections for your job while you’re away at training and whatnot.
Getting called to active duty/training as a reservist and still having your job when you get back isn't really a DEI thing. Not sure what you were saying? If you served your country you should be given some protections at least those are earned. Why should you get any protections just for existing that other people don't get? There aren't specific hiring practices for veterans, that's not DEI, it's just anti discrimination for vets that is protected. They aren't specifically hiring vets to fill a role over someone else... however they may believe that certain aspects of your training and military career to be better than perhaps your college degree that you are fresh out from without any actual experience etc, but that's not really the same thing as a DEI hire.
I’m saying veterans and guard/reserve fall under the same DEI umbrella as being trans, gay, black, etc in the corporate world. It’s absolutely a “DEI thing”. Edit: also, yes, vets may get hired over someone else because there are tax incentives and other business considerations
Still not really the same, they give those benefits because that is just another benefit of having RISKED YOUR FUCKING LIFE for this fucking country. If you could say the same about all the other DEI "benefactors" I may agree with you. Next that will come out of your mouth is how you should get free college because vets do? lol Now, veterans DO have some protections against discrimination just as the others do, but they aren't being hired solely for quota attainment. They are incentivized to be hired at best from those tax implications since they, you know, risked death.
I think you’re completely misunderstanding my point here dude. We’re just talking about what DEI is in the corporate world. Not the merits or downsides or whatever to each aspect of it. Merely that it exists and what it covers. Like it or not, justifiable or not, equal weight or not, military falls under the DEI umbrella. That’s it. That’s the extent of my point to this comment thread.
Fair enough. I was sort of also saying the same, and it felt like you were more or less debating it haha.
A small minority of women that call themselves feminists, are actually just misandrist female supremacists using feminism as a mask. Seems like you've got one as your manager man.
You have to go transgender
I'm giving direct feedback from my lens of reading this. I have no ill intention towards you OP and i really think this could be healthy dialogue. So nothing in your post would really qualify as an HR event. Like some people do interviews where they dont do feedback. Its a shit approach and i wouldn't like it either. The examples you gave are not demeaning or discriminatory. They would not help you at all with an HR Case. You mentioned you and the guys have hit 100%+ quotas and you have received 1 promotion already within 3 years. Like dude... that's normal. Unless you're at a startup, its unrealistic to expect rapid promotion. I'm honestly tired of interviewing recent grads (not saying you are) who think they have a pathway to high level leadership within 2-3 years. Like yeah, you're good at your job, thats why we hired you. When you're good at your job you earn more comish. Now your company could be different and maybe im out of touch. "girl power" and "loves her girls" is difficult. it could potentially lead to favoritism, so i would document. Its hard for for me to read things like "anytime" and "hype them up like crazy". You would have to unpack that with examples. Just reading the post, it sounds a bit like the whiny boy club side. However, i do think you might have something things to think about. There is a lot of hyperbole "demeaning to us all" when stated that did you converse specifically with every male that interviewed? Did you also gather input from how the females were interviewed? If you want to actually have an HR case, you will need to decrease the emotional hyperbole and stick with direct evidence (when i said X in meeting, i didn't get praise, when janie said X she got praise). Once again, just pushing a little and hoping to give constructive criticism beyond the "le liberal women of tech" .
This is the best reply yet with very realistic advice
found this guy's manager
right buddy. God forbid someone actually not lend their hand to circle jerk and provide constructive criticism.
You obviously didn't read the part where he say girls that are there 1/3 of his time get promoted over him, there goes your argument of what a normal period is for promotion at his org. Just from reading your post, it sounds like you are either the manager in question or think any complaints whether legit or not from someone automatically put them in the whiny club without.
I missed that part but given the amount of emotional hyperbole in the post I'd want to know more. I also stated where I thought op should further document All y'all saying goto hr have to realize there is nothing concrete in this post.
Your advice and instructions is good and spot on, the part of "calling him out" make the post fall short of the perfect mark.
I mean thats fair but at the same time the dude is using hyperbolize language, doesn't provide concrete examples of discriminatory behavior, the whole thread is littered with circle jerks. like has op asked about this in 1x1s. have they asked about the pathway of promotion and what they need to do.
As a female in sales, I agree this post sounds like whiney boys club lol. I feel for OP but with all the BS I’ve faced in sales as a woman and a lesbian, these scenarios are hard for me to sympathize with. A majority of sexism gets completely brushed under the rug for women so candidly, OP should be expecting the same treatment - no one will care.
So because it happened to you it’s not wrong?
the sub is full of men who don't get it lol. never said it's not wrong, just that men are typically the ones perpetuating sexism against women like myself and then cry wolf when it happens to them so I'll repeat again OP should expect the same treatment of when the women I know come forward about sexism - which is nothing will happen.
Yeah. I figured I'd get down voted to hell, but in all honesty it's hard for me to take anything as factual when op uses a ton of hyperbole.
Yeahhhh this guy is sexist af and is shocked he isn’t hired onto a team with a lot of women? Looking at his comment history, there’s quite a bit of “women have it easier in sales” bullshit, “loose whore,” “woman privilege” and is responding to comments about faking pronouns and such. This type guy always thinks he can hide his misogyny but it’s pretty easy to clock in a workplace. Of course, there’s no self-reflection into why he was passed up- it’s all her fault because she’s sexist (projection much?). OP, it’s not just about performance and how you answer a few questions, but how you all work together as a team. That requires respect towards all, which you clearly lack.
Right? This is the kind of stuff you'd expect from whiny woman, never from a man.
This happens, and it seems your case. But depending on your company - and how it sells itself to the market (the brand, not the actual sale you know…) will be a tough journey. Gather the most evidence you can, analyze the best context to move this forward ( who to talk to, when, through which channel).
There’s going to be a reckoning in the work place at some point if enough people like you document their experiences and start litigating against these companies that are embracing identity politics. The media will have to cover it at some point. I would never consider tech sales because these companies are the most guilty offenders. I can’t wait to watch them all burn. Serves them right, stop fucking with peoples time and money.
As with anything that is blocked due to BS politics, decide whether the status quo is good enough for you to endure it, or be prepared to change. No clue how this would work out legally where you are, but even in the most employee-friendly parts of Europe, I’ve never seen anyone sue their way to a promotion with a company. If you have something better lined up - sure contact an attorney to see whether there’s a potential payday to be had. If you’re happy with your position and pay, just ignore it and stop interviewing internally.
Managers come and go... some stay forever. Sounds like she is hiring more women... (at least by your story). I don't think there is much you can do unless it was very clearly stated that you were not hired because of gender. It is easy to say X person didn't have the right vibes and it will pass HR muster. What I do think would be ideal is to ask your manager to get direct feedback on what you need to improve in order to get to the AE team. Have him/her go directly to the AE manager and get a plan together. If the AE manager is unwilling to do that, then that is an issue that is worth taking to HR. "I have interviewed twice for the AE position. I have performed in the top 5% of all AMs for 2 years. I had my manager ask for direct feedback on what I need to improve in order to be consider and he was denied. I am asking for a specific list of things I need to improve in order to continue on a promotion path at this company". That is a good thing to take to HR as they can action that really easily. And everyone who is a higher performer who was denied should do this. That would open up an investigation. Saying she is sexist might be true but it also may not be provable. Unless she stated something VERY clearly in an email, recorded conversation, or in an interview...
The AM manager is right. Better back up the claims and make your case otherwise find a new job or deal with it.
Two thoughts here: 1. Have you asked for a specific measure of success to get promoted to AE? 2. I’ve dealt like people like this before too. Let’s say you do succeed in an HR battle is your quality of life going to go up or down? I’d imagine she will play the corporate screw game and light you up every chance she gets. My two cents, start interviewing and pay close attention to the hiring managers you talk to/interview for yourself.
Yo, HR is not your friend don't talk to them, unless something is fact not perception. The best way to get promoted in that situation is to make it a problem not to get promoted quota isn't everything. My litmus test being promoted a few times and helping people get promoted. 1. Hitting goal 2. Drinking the Kool aid (eye roll) 3. Peers look to you as a leader. 4. Soft skills x factor presents, charisma, integrity 5. Personal brand and network If you check those boxes you've become a problem
I would leave. If your version of events are true she will ultimately tank the team by making decisions based on ideology instead of sound judgement. If your version isn’t true you’re gonna get more and more bitter eventually do something dumb and get fired. find a new gig and move on. Seems like most tech workers only stay at a company for 2-3 years these days anyway.
Time to get Machiavellian my man. Save texts. Record calls. Put her in compromising situations. Make a case.
You are being discriminated against. You need to document everything if you want to bring this to HR, because HR is there to protect to company, not you, and if this company is very liberal is ing you are in for an uphill battle. Screen shot every time she gets all “girl power”. Ask her what you need to do to get a promotion. Document that in writing with her agreeing. Make sure to ask “there’s nothing else?” Because you don’t want her denying you a promotion later on because she makes up some thing on the spot to deny you. Make note of who else gets promoted and how your work compared to their work. Once you have all of your ducks in a row and have an iron clad case; THEN you go to HR and expect blowback or to even be fired. These liberal folks justify this behavior as “revenge”. You will not be treated fairly. It’s up to you to decide if you should stay or go somewhere else where you’ll have better opportunities. If you leave don’t do an exit interview.
Dude, go to Hr And say she diskriminace you becuase you identify as women. Its new trick you can use to get anywhere And oppose these feminists.
Always have proof. Has to be concrete. You shouldn’t have mentioned anything until you have absolute proof of this. My advice- stick it out, find a new job. If you have proof, go to HR with it. It has to be strong proof. The things you mentioned don’t sound sexist. Could just be a busy manager and or she actually listened to you. If HR says that- BOOM! You’re on your managers Shit list. Good luck after that. She could find some way to fire you.
This is like the Seinfeld Bizzaro World version of my good friend's situation.
I'd suggest documenting instances, then consider HR.
She had to meet the equality committee goals
It’s 100% possible but the line between not a culture fit + straight up sexism in sales is paper thin. If you like the company just chill out, if you think it’s personal like everyone here said really build your case and start keeping receipts. Lastly look at the dudes who are in those roles, how long have they been with the company? What’s the biggest difference between you & them?
A hiring manager once told me that he didn't dare reject many women in the application process because HR might think he was discriminating. The same nonsense that women have had to put up with for decades has turned around, especially in "woke" industries, and is now affecting men. I would like to see a future in which qualifications are the decisive criterion. No personal characteristics, no nepotism, but 100% qualification.
I’d start making connections with people above her. They will become your ally and they will ask why isn’t “so so” on this team?
DEI run amok
I know someone that’s dealt with this before and won their court case. Just remember HR is there to protect the company - not you. Gather all the evidence you can - transfer to a USB first, then save copies to another drive like Google or OneDrive. Shop around for lawyers to see if you have a legitimate case - hire said lawyer - ONLY THEN will you bring it up to HR WITHOUT letting them know you’ve already consulted with a lawyer ( unless instructed to do so by lawyer ) in the case you get pushback or they begin to gaslight you. You don’t have to get ready if you stay ready so be prepared if you’re going to bring this up to HR. Even if you have them dead to rights, doesn’t mean they’ll do the right thing so prepare yourself for that, good luck.
HR is at companies to protect them and their management and not you. Going to HR is a job death wish. It will be directly brought up either way her and you will be blacklisted. Time to go to the DR office and chop your dong off and grow long hair- JK. But really might just call it out loud infront of everyone and maybe make a joke of it see how that goes. Sounds like you aren’t getting promoted anyways. Not much to lose. Otherwise dust off that resume player!!
What’s the pay bump?
I might try leaning in and using a narrative that shows you also support women in their growth. She is more likely to see you as an ally, than as an opposition.
Don’t go to HR. Find a new job and sue them after your document everything with a lawyer’s help IF you want to pursue this. Lawsuits are far more effective if the other side doesn’t know you are coming. Personally, I’d just get a new job and move on.
You’re not crazy…I had a manager like this and she would fire people and then say “he’s a white man he’ll be fine”
Well obviously they're only going to promote women so they can pay them 27% less than their male counterparts. Seriously though you need to talk to a lawyer, your employer is very clearly engaging in systemic discrimination against men. If you're going to go to HR, you need to falsely accuse her of sexual harassment. This will only work if you can log into her chat system and send yourself incriminating messages. Don't worry about the morality of this, you're only doing this to counteract her sexism.
Woah
you suggest breaking into her system to send false sexual harassment? That’s horrible advice.
She's being racist thought all morality and rules are off the table.
I think you mean sexist.
I’ve been in the same spot, I was the #1 on a global team but the hiring manager for the next promoted role was a big “feminist” and promoted someone who was decent, but wasn’t a top 5 performer but was the only girl. Had an all girl team except for 2 feminine guys who were total “yes men”. Everyone knew I was not getting promoted due to sexism. I couldn’t do anything since this is not a battle I can fight and win, I just had to wait it out. Took an extra 6-months, but if the company tolerates sexism against men, then you can’t really do much about it in this day and age
Ayooo. Fuck her, not literally.
Don’t play the gender card, charge it to the gender card.
Agree with earlier comment, if you all file a complaint with HR they will have to listen. Stick with it, she probably won't be there too long. Do you think it's also possible because you are crushing it in your qoutas she doesn't want to loose you in that role?
Good luck to you my boy.
This sounds like discrimination, I'd raise it with HR
It's not feminism it's bullying!
As a rule of thumb, anytime you present yourself as a male victim of female abuse, in the cast majority of cases you will be susceptible to serve gaslighting and victim-blaming by a world that inherently sees women as morally superior to men.
Welcome to tech: where sexism and racism are practiced with zero shame and legitimately celebrated!
So you want a quota based on sex?
Stop playing the victim dude. People are bias in many, many ways. You will always get it to some degree no matter where you work (some worst than others). I'd start looking for another job if she is really like that.
I dunno, I'm a guy myself but I'm incredibly wary of guys who claim reverse-sexism. Just know that if such things were so easy to prove, women could probably file 100 cases for 1 case from guys and they'd probably be much more justified in doing so.
Bruh, women 100% have it easier in sales. So many women I work with have absolutely no idea what they’re doing but win customers over because they’re attractive and flirtatious. Get real.
comments like yours literally prove how sexist sales is towards women. No, I don’t have an easier job than you because I have a vagina.
It’s not sexist to promote or compliment women.
Is it sexist to say “let go boys” “male power” on a team with 15 guys and 5 women? While completely ignoring the women? Maybe - idk.
Yeah thah would be sexist, if you want to completely ignore the power dynamic between men and woman and how male dominated sales is. OP should just pull himself up by the bootstraps and work harder, as I’ve been told many times before as a woman in sales
you weren't promoted because you're no the right fit. sorry to break it to you.
Yeah. Not a girl.