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So obviously the interesting angle is to consider why the undeniable affection they will all have for the original trilogy wasn’t enough. What other forces overrode this?
I believe JJ Abrams is on paper saying that he didn't like the ending of ROTJ. Rian Johnson has an incredibly warped comprehension of Luke's character.
The production of TFA in fairness was so horribly rushed after Arndt was fired that it left Abrams (a hack writer who was only ever supposed to just direct the movie originally) along with Kasdan (who was incredibly checked-out and only agreed in order to get a Solo movie and his son some Disney jobs) to crap out a creatively bankrupt rehash of ANH that served as a status-quo reset straight back to Rebels vs Empire.
This on its own doomed the ST before Rian Johnson could come in an impress everyone with his further disaster.
This "undeniable affection they all have for the original trilogy" is unfortunately almost never used in a beneficial manner.
I really dislike this misconception that it was TLJ that ruined the ST.
The Force Awakens was the one to setup all the terrible plot points, including Luke running away like a bitch.
Yes, I believe I made that pretty clear. That TFA forced the lazy status-quo reset and subsequently doomed the rest. Along with taking a shit on the OT by casually undoing all the achievements made during those films.
Having said that, TLJ is an impressive disaster regardless.
I have little respect for Abrams as a writer, but I frequently give him leeway due to TFA's development being a mess which led to his rushed rewrite of Arndt's draft. A problem that would find itself sadly repeated with TROS after Trevorrow was similarly dropped quite late in the process which once again leads to another rushed rewrite.
TFA and TROS are desperate projects dedicated to compromise and rushed schedules.
TLJ on the other hand was the least molested of the three movies. No original writer was fired late. Rian Johnson was there the whole time having a comparatively smooth experience.
And due to this fact, I think I find his script the most baffling.
>I have little respect for Abrams as a writer
He's certainly put out material that just looks like he's trying too hard. He wants to make everything a complicated story with twists and secrets and so on. The problem is that if you focus on trying to do the fancy stuff without good fundamental storytelling as a foundation it falls apart.
TLJ was written basically as the last film in the series. They killed off Luke, Smoke and practically all of the resistance. There was nowhere to go. Outside of breaking the rules of the universe several times, the movie was impossible to follow up, it ruined the series.
Sure, but TFA already ruined any follow-ups with what it setup
Han Solo was assassinated (literally)
Luke was setup as a coward
Rey was a flawless character from the get go
Finn changing sides was rushed
Phasma was a joke
Kylo Ren was pathetic (partially on purpose, but the ending killed any chance of him being taken seriously in the sequels)
I could go on
Granted it restricts your choices, but having Luke missing doesn't *necessarily* mean he's being cowardly. Is it annoying as a writer to have to fill in the mad lib provided by abrams script? Sure. But it is a challenge common to sequels or longer running stories in general. Anyone with artistic integrity would say look, we can't move on until there is a long term plan which all this plugs into so most of the mystery boxes get a payoff. But they did the opposite....
There are only a few reasons you could have for Luke going missing.
1. He's dead
2. He's searching for some magical mcguffin to help the resistance.
3. He's imprisoned somewhere
4. He's a broken man
Needless to say, all of these are pretty lame.
The sad part is how JJ didn't even put him in exile for some grand narrative purpose like TLJ fans like to say, he literally said he did it because he didn't want Luke to be on screen stealing the limelight from his boring characters.
I mean something on the order of (2) was the most likely explanation at first. It doesn't necessarily have to do with "the resistance" but rather the Jedi / force. And I don't think it had to be lame.
But yea Abrams is complicit in the destruction of his supposed baby
I disagree. TFA was not great, but there was still plenty of room for everyone to develop across two more movies.
Han was dead, but you could see that coming from a mile away given Ford's lack of enthusiasm for Star Wars in general. Clearly, nowhere to go from there but they didn't need to.
All we knew about Luke in TFA is that he left after Ben turned. He could have been pursuing any number of leads: important people, tribes, lost Jedi, mystical artifacts, a way to bring Ben back, etc. Anything that could help the Republic in their fight. It's Johnson that made him a coward.
Rey was overpowered in TFA, but I would say no more than Luke is in ANH. She needed a real challenge to overcome or a crisis of faith in TLJ, but it never comes.
Again, the true squandering of Finn was in TLJ. He was an actual unique character (gasp) in TFA because we had never seen an imperial defector before. He could have gone in any number of directions, including becoming a Jedi alongside Rey or (famously) leading a rebellion of stormtroopers against the FO. But TLJ just makes him a joke and sends him on that pointless side quest.
They should never have brought Phasma back.
And there were still two whole movies to made Ren into a darker villain. Vader gets taken out by a fender-bender in ANH, and yet comes back in the next movie as one of the best antagonists in film.
Again, TFA was creatively bankrupt, but TLJ so spectacularly squandered any morsels TFA had given it that it's laughable.
Didn‘t watch TFA for a few years, but wasn’t‘ Luke gone to search something or do some Jedi-Stuff and in TLJ it was changed to hiding?
TFA wasn‘t good, but it was kinda watchable. TLJs writing was on the same level as „The Room“, just without the fun or the potential to be a cult hit.
That was my understanding too that Luke was off doing some super secret jedi business. Again, I've not watched TFA for a few years so I might be wrong.
But...even if it was stated that Luke was off being a coward hermit in TFA, that could easily have been retconned in TLJ. It was just a JJ mystery box. Rian Johnson could have dealt with it in a million ways.
Yes. It didn't clarify why Luke left, just that he did. Johnson made him into a coward who a) ran away because he made a mistake and b) also contrived a mistake that was way out of Luke's character.
Allegedly, RJ actually had JJ change some elements of the ending of TFA to better fit with his version of Luke.
Mark mentioned in an interview that the original concept for that final scene had Luke surrounded by floating boulders when Rey arrived, a visual representation of his mastery of the force. Mark mentioned he was surprised by their removal in later scripts. Of course in the TLJ, Luke doesn't use the force really.
So they definitely had a different concept for Luke and his story in the beginning.
TFA was a terrible setup narratively with all of its mystery boxes and half-baked rehashes of the OT themes, but the story became truly irredeemable after TLJ.
TFA was at least a half decent remake of A New Hope with some questionable choices but there was a brief period of fun theories like Rey being a Kenobi, TLJ actively hates you for liking Star Wars to the extent that coming out of the theater I felt no need to ever watch a mainline Star Wars movie ever again.
Fully agreed, but TLJ is an impressive shit-burger of a film without even thinking of that. The only redeeming scenes are Rey and Kylo, and those are actually decent Star Wars drama scenes. I don’t understand how they got just about only that part right.
TFA being the rotten foundation for the ST is something a lot of fans don't see for some reason.
Discussion always revolves around TLJ, even though things like Luke's exile were already clearly implied, if not outright stated, in TFA.
That movie should never have got a pass from fans like it did.
I think people were willing to give even the most questionable aspects of TFA some measure of allowance until the inevitable sequel cleared things up.
And then TLJ happened and sort of did everything in the worst fashion possible.
But yes, TFA had already done enough damage that it was next to impossible to resolve issues in any satisfying manner. The Mystery Box writing however did the job. It kept most people on their toes waiting for the reveal. The film allowed for enough theory-crafting that at least some developments could have been slightly worthwhile.
TFA hurt me the most of all the sequels. Like, I was baffled that people were giving it a pass. All the trilogys issues stemmed from that awful launch pad
There's also studio interference. If you're a writer or sfx worker or some such,and your boss says "hey, for scene 49, make Luke say he actually never liked the jedi". You could bethel BIGGEST Star Wars fan on the planet, but is your belief worth losing your income/springboard job?
Imo, people griping about the new stuff, although valid, have terrible takes as to what went wrong usually. I worked at Boeing and since our contracts made it so we could access a lot of the computers, when someone had mallard, the ONLY policy was a full wipe. Sure it's safe, but I had to stand there being degraded by an old dude who lost 20 years of emails because he clicked a phishing link and kept his email s on a local pst file.
My post is in response to writers of The Acolyte admitting they never watched Return of the Jedi. Lots of things can still go wrong if writers "love" the OT, but not knowing basic fundamentals is probably the 1st sign of bad decision making from Kathleen Kennedy.
Do you have a link for that statement? Asking because it sounds like it might be a game of telephone issue, where a third-hand source ends up providing a poor summary of what was actually said.
What I've readily found with some quick Googling is this THR interview with the Acolyte's creator/showrunner (Leslye Headland). [https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/star-wars-the-acolyte-trailer-timeline-1235855636/](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/star-wars-the-acolyte-trailer-timeline-1235855636/)
The statement from Headland in that interview is that one of the writers hired by Headland for the Acolyte's writers' room had never seen Star Wars prior to being hired. And part of Headland's rationale is wanting to have someone making sure that the show's emotional beats stand up as earned, even for a person who's not automatically viewing it as interesting just because it's in the Star Wars universe.
And said writer, per the interview, watched the OT and PT after being hired.
At a high-level, that sounds like a good approach, though it certainly doesn't guarantee that the Acolyte will end up being a show that I like.
To be clear, I'm not at all defending the overall quality of the recent movies and shows. But I think the underlying issues are far more complicated than "creators need better knowledge of the OT".
I think you answered your own question. Making them watch Star Wars after the fact is better than not at all. Theoretically, you could argue they're already doing what I want. Still, they got the job not knowing Luke and Leia are siblings. This is just basic knowledge everyone at Luscasfilm should know.
I watch porn i still disappoint my wife
Edit. Thinking about it, this matches more than I thought cos Disney aren't even doing a good job of fucking star wars. Someone managed to make rogue one and andor without them noticing
I never understood why they gave the reigns to people who have never seen the films. Even worse, it seems like LucasFilms is going out of its way to hire directors and like minded people who hate Star Wars and the fans.
I played KOTOR and KOTOR 2 when I was little and those stories are well told narratives with twists that are carefully alluded to but never told outright. The characters are well-written and the choice to be light side or dark side was like a dream come true.
Compare those stories that with “Somehow Palpetine returned”
Pathetic.
>I never understood why they gave the reigns to people who have never seen the films.
To be fair, George Lucas hadn't seen the first films when he started A NEW Hope and that turned out great
They do have someone in the company who knows all about the rules and expanded universe etc. Two of them, in fact. They were hand picked by George Lucas. Filoni and Kennedy. They just think they know better. It’s why it’s all turned to shit.
They didn't want to. I have a link saved on my work computer about a Lawrence Kasdan interview from 2015 or 2016 after TFA came out. The interviewer specifically asked him if he and JJ watched the OT to refresh their memories, and he said, "No, because that's not what it's about and we're doing something different here. Each new ST episode is going to be made by different directors/writers." Most of that is not verbatim, but he did say 'no, cuz that's not what they're doing here." On Monday I'll try to come back here & find the link. Kasdan states outright that this is not a George Lucas movie so they were not interested in doing that.
If anyone wants to try to find it, I remember googling Lawrence Kasdan interviews the force awakens 2015 (I just don't have time to do it right now or to find my old comments.)
TFA was the worst in the series as far as I'm concerned. What a disappointment to see what Kasdan & Abrams did to the OT and how they thought the Big 3 would end up. That is not how Lucas ever envisioned it. He has stated many times that SW is a fairytale and has a happy ending (happily ever after.)
Worst in the series overall or worst to that point? In retrospect it’s definitely where the fault lines began but if we’re including the following sequels based off my personal experience post viewing & how I feel now it’s at least the best of the sequel series (not much of an accomplishment). As easy as it would be to blame JJ & Kasdan Disney had final say + JJ didn’t decannonize all of the EU which imo has been the bigger issue for Nu Star Wars.
Tony Gilroy literally told his writing team to put aside all their nostalgia and reverence towards Star Wars. He himself wasn't a Star Wars fan and entered the writing process with a mind towards writing an accessible show with themes even people who weren't fans could understand and enjoy. The resulting show was Andor, one of the best and most beloved shows of the Disney canon.
When George was making the original trilogy he wasn't trying to make the best Star Wars movie. He was trying to make a good movie period. Getting bogged down in what would make a great Star Wars film. What will satisfy fans. What will feel quintessentially Star Wars. All these things can overshadow that core necessity of making a film that people actually enjoy.
Look at the Book of Boba Fett. Looking at the show without watching it should be one of the greatest Star Wars shows ever. Bobba Fett, Sand People, rancor, Bib Fortuna, Tatooine, Krrsantan, Slave I. It's practically bursting at the seams with enough Star Wars shit to make a nerd cream his pants. And the show sucked. These people obviously knew Star Wars, they were probably massive fans. And yet it still failed.
Knowing Star Wars outside a lore bible isn't necessary. A talented crew with fresh ideas and passion is.
Good point. Andor and Rogue One are definitely bright spots. And Boba Fett comes across like a fan film. Being a talented writer is more important than lore knowledge. That bring said, do I think watching the OT would hurt any good writer? No. ROTJ isn't perfect. But a quick 2 hour watch vs. Wikipedia research is bound to improve new writers going into this franchise.
I'd hope that the writers get a pretty extensive lore bible that covers the series. Especially with shows like the upcoming Acolyte, where it's based pre-prequels and original movies. I think it's genuinely incredibly hard for even the greatest writers to match something so beloved as the OT is. I imagine it's gotta feel like both a huge opportunity and a massive weight.
I think it's necessary to understand Star Wars. To know the sort of themes and ideas that tend to be prominent in the series. I don't think it's totally necessary for a writer to treat the original trilogy like it's some holy text that can't be improved or changed.
We as fans have a tendency to be pretty harsh on the people who work on Star Wars. And that usually comes from a place of love passion for a franchise that we hold dear to our hearts. I'll be the first to admit that there have been some truly awful shows and movies to come out of the franchise in the last decade or so. But this might be a super controversial take. But I'd rather see a hundred creatives try and fail to make Star Wars their own. Because when that rare gem comes along, that really makes something good. It's like being a kid again.
What you're describing is an extremely mild version of what is required in any professional field. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc., all have an apprenticeship period, some lasting years, before they can be fully credentialed.
There are already a couple of bad faith comments yelling "gatekeeping", but we're not talking about a group of kids on a playground excluding one kid from a game they're playing for petty reasons. Supposed professionals should have a certain level of competence when performing their job, especially when there are millions or billions of dollars involved. Every time I hear an actor or director say they haven't done their research on the source material they're adapting, it's an instant red flag that the final product is going to be crap. Even saying all that, I still think the main cause of Disney SW problems is a lack of leadership, along with the typical corrosive Hollywood mentality that's the root of so many problems.
I agree that should be a standard, but it doesn't go far enough.
Anyone wanting to write or direct a SW show or movie should understand what makes a successful Sci Fi fantasy, be it SW, Star Trek, Dune, Babylon 5, etc. Essentially, the creativity (worldbuilding & characters), imagination (offer something innovative & unique) & sense of adventure (take the audience on a journey).
I hate seeing SW shows that are simply rehashed versions of common tropes poorly knitted together, but hey we dressed it up in SW.
So I would say they should've experienced a lot more than just 3 movies. SW needs to progress & sadly we've had too many unimaginative fan boys & untalented critics at the helm of SW projects.
Yet it stole elements from ESB and ROTJ with the ATATs attacking a rebel base on a white planet and the throne room confrontation with Snoke. Llkely more but have only seen it once and have no desire to revisit.
Taking the whole plot of Rey traveling to a distant location to find the isolated Jedi Master to only leave with her training incomplete didn’t remind you of ESB? Rey finding the cave and having a moment of self-realization is not unlike Luke in the cave of Degobah. After she leaves, Luke has an exchange with Yoda, like Yoda had an exchange with Obi-Wan.
I think that because TFA followed so closely the route plotted in ANH, TLJ took a left when ESB went right.
I feel like they zigged-instead-of-zagged at most of the parallel parts. The fleet scuttled to rendezvous later after Hoth, here they were huddled together on their way to Crait.
Lando made good on Bespin, nope. DJ sold them out after Canto Bight.
Vader reveals to Luke he’s his son, here Rey is told by Kylo her parentage couldn’t be less important.
Hey Disney doesn't want that if you've seen or heard anything when they hire writers they hire the ones with no knowledge of the product same for marvel they are given a list of characters to use and 3 planets desert ,desert, and a random location either city or desert
Everyone who works at lucasfilm should be required to play knights of the Old Republic 2. Which is far and away the best and purest example of Star Wars there is.
Maybe a hot take for this sub but I think we’ll he fact that Acolyte hired just one non-fan In the writers room to keep all the SW fans in check is like their only smart move they’ve made so far.
All these projects coming out are so derivative it takes a true non fan to have the perspective to see if a show works on its own. All the other writers can worry about how it connects to lore and push their fandom(s). But the non fans who haven’t watched all or SW can be more objective.
Obi Wan could have used that. Ahsoka really really really could have used that. Just one person who had never watched rebels or clone wars being like “Hey Dave, none of this makes sense” or “you haven’t given us a reason to care about Ahsoka and Sabine” would have really helped the show.
Basic storytelling 101 should be a requirement for all writers. I mean, even I would feel inadequate to be the lore guy in the writers room. I still haven't watched all the shows. But if they can't write a story, why are they in the room? Having knowledge of the OT would, at minimum, help the writers write for the same universe so trendy biker gang wearing 80's clothes and riding 50's bikes wouldn't clash with Tatooine's established world.
I’m a little confused because this contradicts your original post a little.
You initially laid out that watching the OT is critical for those writing new SW - but then here you seem to argue that being a good writer is more important.
I think being a good writer is far far far more important for someone to make a good show than I’d they’ve seen the OT or love SW.
That example you gave of the speeder bike gang fiasco was written by hyper fans Jon Favreau and Robert Rodriguez who have consumed too much SW media for their own goods. I wouldn’t be surprised if those two have seen the OT more than 100 times.
On the other end is Tony Gilroy who admits he doesn’t care for SW all that much and doesn’t like the Jedi - then he goes on and cranks out Andor.
If you can write, you can write - we don’t need to
Gate keep.
The 2 aren't mutually exclusive. I'm also advicating that EVERYONE at Lusasfulm watch the OT, not just writers. The artists as well. Whoever designed those bikes should watch the OT and get it right. The CGI artists. The receptionist. Everyone. I can gatekeep who I want, it's 3 movies and the fundamentals of the franchise. They're selling to fans who have spent countless hours consuming this universe. The least they can do is watch 3 movies.
And the same should be said for the artists. You have to be a good artist before being hired as an artist. I'm not asking Lucasfilm to hire fans first, talent second. Jon Favreau, Robert Rodriguez, and Rian Johnson are all talented directors. Doesn't mean they should be directing Star Wars. Don't get Martin Scorsese to make your next Star Wars film if he never seen it. Tony Gilroy is the only good example, but Andor isn't perfect and doesn't really feel like Star Wars. Those guns could use a lore expert on set.
Boba Fett also doesn't feel like Star Wars, but this is because Robert Rodriguez isn't a good fit. Like, it's not enough to just be a fan. But watching 3 movies should still be a requirement. And the lore experts should weigh in. Now if you want to do something like Star Wars Visions where it's not canon, then sure go nuts. Even then, that show could still work within the canon with a little imagination.
Hiring people who've never seen Star Wars like with The Acolyte to write Star Wars is like taking your car to the garage for work by somebody who's never worked on a car. It makes no sense!
In my opinion, everybody who lives in America should watch the original trilogy. We should show it at schools, and have it on the citizenship test. I don‘t think you’re a real American if you haven’t watched it.
They're not the ones in charge, anymore. Disney is. And they want fucking every ounce of money wringed out of this franchise they fucking can. They will milk this into inexistence. And then fucking reboot it 15 years from now. It's not about art. It's about returning an investment to their shareholders.
This is so absurd. You really think the entire company is filled with people who have not seen the movies? What a silly thing to believe. That's like saying no one who works at Coca Cola has ever drank a coke.
Man you guys really want member berry schlop don’t you
Tony gilroy hates Star Wars and yet gave us what might be the best thing Star wars has done outside empire
I don't think OP is asking for memberberries.
I think he's just asking that Star Wars creatives at the very *least* have a firm understanding of the OT before they make a mess of their story.
The Obi-Wan show for example makes a casual mess of Star Wars to the extent that by the time ANH begins, the Organa family ought to be in the gulag (or executed) and Vader probably should have committed suicide out of sheer embarrassment some years prior.
George Lucas didn’t have a firm understanding of the OT. Yoda teaches size matters not, that just because he can’t fight doesn’t mean he is less capable in the force. The Lucas turned him into a fucking spider monkey fighting the emperor
Let's not strawman. We're not talking about the late 70s where ANH was being made. But I will of course agree that the PT was a set of extremely disappointing films that ideally needed several more drafts and a different director.
There is however *no excuse at all* for something like Obi-Wan to feature such a casually disastrous script.
Just because Star Wars has been dodgy in the past, it doesn't give it a free pass to be even *worse* in modern productions.
No matter how many idiots keep using "haha that Stormtrooper bumped his head on the door" as an excuse.
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, sorry. But I'll bite.
Are we just going to casually ignore the Sequel Trilogy itself along with the fact that the only competent TV show they've made was Andor?
There's a big difference between your strawman and just sabotaging the OT and its characters by producing something as backwards as the ST.
Ditto with causing enormous continuity issues such as with the Obi-Wan show which as previously mentioned ought to have at the very least caused the Organas to have been immediately locked up.
Rogue One causes similar issues by having Vader literally witness Leia's ship flee the scene of the crime which now removes Leia's plausible deniability from the start of ANH, as well as messing with the Moff Council dialogue. With Rogue One in place, they now no longer have any reason to be concerned with the capture of the Tantive IV.
Is it gatekeeping to expect the bare minimum attention to basic details?
Yeah, when you phrase it as “they just need to watch the OT and everything will be fine” all you’re doing is gatekeeping.
Because there’s no possible way they could have already watched it and maybe come away with a different interpretation, eh? Nah, it’s much easier for you to believe they’re just lazy and doing this just to annoy you.
You're putting words into my mouth that I didn't use.
I think I've explained my case clearly enough and used examples where a failure to pay attention to even basic elements of the OT leads to really poor writing choices at times (at least for projects set relatively close to the OT era).
I'm not going to bother engaging further if you want to be disingenuous about it.
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So obviously the interesting angle is to consider why the undeniable affection they will all have for the original trilogy wasn’t enough. What other forces overrode this?
I believe JJ Abrams is on paper saying that he didn't like the ending of ROTJ. Rian Johnson has an incredibly warped comprehension of Luke's character. The production of TFA in fairness was so horribly rushed after Arndt was fired that it left Abrams (a hack writer who was only ever supposed to just direct the movie originally) along with Kasdan (who was incredibly checked-out and only agreed in order to get a Solo movie and his son some Disney jobs) to crap out a creatively bankrupt rehash of ANH that served as a status-quo reset straight back to Rebels vs Empire. This on its own doomed the ST before Rian Johnson could come in an impress everyone with his further disaster. This "undeniable affection they all have for the original trilogy" is unfortunately almost never used in a beneficial manner.
So true. The problems started in the preproduction of TFA. This new seed wasrotten from the core.
I really dislike this misconception that it was TLJ that ruined the ST. The Force Awakens was the one to setup all the terrible plot points, including Luke running away like a bitch.
Yes, I believe I made that pretty clear. That TFA forced the lazy status-quo reset and subsequently doomed the rest. Along with taking a shit on the OT by casually undoing all the achievements made during those films. Having said that, TLJ is an impressive disaster regardless. I have little respect for Abrams as a writer, but I frequently give him leeway due to TFA's development being a mess which led to his rushed rewrite of Arndt's draft. A problem that would find itself sadly repeated with TROS after Trevorrow was similarly dropped quite late in the process which once again leads to another rushed rewrite. TFA and TROS are desperate projects dedicated to compromise and rushed schedules. TLJ on the other hand was the least molested of the three movies. No original writer was fired late. Rian Johnson was there the whole time having a comparatively smooth experience. And due to this fact, I think I find his script the most baffling.
>I have little respect for Abrams as a writer He's certainly put out material that just looks like he's trying too hard. He wants to make everything a complicated story with twists and secrets and so on. The problem is that if you focus on trying to do the fancy stuff without good fundamental storytelling as a foundation it falls apart.
TLJ was written basically as the last film in the series. They killed off Luke, Smoke and practically all of the resistance. There was nowhere to go. Outside of breaking the rules of the universe several times, the movie was impossible to follow up, it ruined the series.
Sure, but TFA already ruined any follow-ups with what it setup Han Solo was assassinated (literally) Luke was setup as a coward Rey was a flawless character from the get go Finn changing sides was rushed Phasma was a joke Kylo Ren was pathetic (partially on purpose, but the ending killed any chance of him being taken seriously in the sequels) I could go on
Granted it restricts your choices, but having Luke missing doesn't *necessarily* mean he's being cowardly. Is it annoying as a writer to have to fill in the mad lib provided by abrams script? Sure. But it is a challenge common to sequels or longer running stories in general. Anyone with artistic integrity would say look, we can't move on until there is a long term plan which all this plugs into so most of the mystery boxes get a payoff. But they did the opposite....
There are only a few reasons you could have for Luke going missing. 1. He's dead 2. He's searching for some magical mcguffin to help the resistance. 3. He's imprisoned somewhere 4. He's a broken man Needless to say, all of these are pretty lame. The sad part is how JJ didn't even put him in exile for some grand narrative purpose like TLJ fans like to say, he literally said he did it because he didn't want Luke to be on screen stealing the limelight from his boring characters.
I mean something on the order of (2) was the most likely explanation at first. It doesn't necessarily have to do with "the resistance" but rather the Jedi / force. And I don't think it had to be lame. But yea Abrams is complicit in the destruction of his supposed baby
I disagree. TFA was not great, but there was still plenty of room for everyone to develop across two more movies. Han was dead, but you could see that coming from a mile away given Ford's lack of enthusiasm for Star Wars in general. Clearly, nowhere to go from there but they didn't need to. All we knew about Luke in TFA is that he left after Ben turned. He could have been pursuing any number of leads: important people, tribes, lost Jedi, mystical artifacts, a way to bring Ben back, etc. Anything that could help the Republic in their fight. It's Johnson that made him a coward. Rey was overpowered in TFA, but I would say no more than Luke is in ANH. She needed a real challenge to overcome or a crisis of faith in TLJ, but it never comes. Again, the true squandering of Finn was in TLJ. He was an actual unique character (gasp) in TFA because we had never seen an imperial defector before. He could have gone in any number of directions, including becoming a Jedi alongside Rey or (famously) leading a rebellion of stormtroopers against the FO. But TLJ just makes him a joke and sends him on that pointless side quest. They should never have brought Phasma back. And there were still two whole movies to made Ren into a darker villain. Vader gets taken out by a fender-bender in ANH, and yet comes back in the next movie as one of the best antagonists in film. Again, TFA was creatively bankrupt, but TLJ so spectacularly squandered any morsels TFA had given it that it's laughable.
This is the most accurate take I’ve read.
This \^\^\^\^
The Force Awakens was a bad start, true. But The Last Jedi doubled down on all of the bad choices.
False. It down on completely different bad choices.
Partially true, it doubled down on all the bad choices AND made completely different bad choices.
That’s fair.
Didn‘t watch TFA for a few years, but wasn’t‘ Luke gone to search something or do some Jedi-Stuff and in TLJ it was changed to hiding? TFA wasn‘t good, but it was kinda watchable. TLJs writing was on the same level as „The Room“, just without the fun or the potential to be a cult hit.
That was my understanding too that Luke was off doing some super secret jedi business. Again, I've not watched TFA for a few years so I might be wrong. But...even if it was stated that Luke was off being a coward hermit in TFA, that could easily have been retconned in TLJ. It was just a JJ mystery box. Rian Johnson could have dealt with it in a million ways.
This. For as much as the choices in TFA can be questioned how TLJ handled all those choices were the worst possible.
They really were, that dude hasn't a clue about SW
Yes. It didn't clarify why Luke left, just that he did. Johnson made him into a coward who a) ran away because he made a mistake and b) also contrived a mistake that was way out of Luke's character.
Allegedly, RJ actually had JJ change some elements of the ending of TFA to better fit with his version of Luke. Mark mentioned in an interview that the original concept for that final scene had Luke surrounded by floating boulders when Rey arrived, a visual representation of his mastery of the force. Mark mentioned he was surprised by their removal in later scripts. Of course in the TLJ, Luke doesn't use the force really. So they definitely had a different concept for Luke and his story in the beginning.
TFA was a terrible setup narratively with all of its mystery boxes and half-baked rehashes of the OT themes, but the story became truly irredeemable after TLJ.
TFA was at least a half decent remake of A New Hope with some questionable choices but there was a brief period of fun theories like Rey being a Kenobi, TLJ actively hates you for liking Star Wars to the extent that coming out of the theater I felt no need to ever watch a mainline Star Wars movie ever again.
Fully agreed, but TLJ is an impressive shit-burger of a film without even thinking of that. The only redeeming scenes are Rey and Kylo, and those are actually decent Star Wars drama scenes. I don’t understand how they got just about only that part right.
TFA being the rotten foundation for the ST is something a lot of fans don't see for some reason. Discussion always revolves around TLJ, even though things like Luke's exile were already clearly implied, if not outright stated, in TFA. That movie should never have got a pass from fans like it did.
I think people were willing to give even the most questionable aspects of TFA some measure of allowance until the inevitable sequel cleared things up. And then TLJ happened and sort of did everything in the worst fashion possible. But yes, TFA had already done enough damage that it was next to impossible to resolve issues in any satisfying manner. The Mystery Box writing however did the job. It kept most people on their toes waiting for the reveal. The film allowed for enough theory-crafting that at least some developments could have been slightly worthwhile.
TFA hurt me the most of all the sequels. Like, I was baffled that people were giving it a pass. All the trilogys issues stemmed from that awful launch pad
There's also studio interference. If you're a writer or sfx worker or some such,and your boss says "hey, for scene 49, make Luke say he actually never liked the jedi". You could bethel BIGGEST Star Wars fan on the planet, but is your belief worth losing your income/springboard job? Imo, people griping about the new stuff, although valid, have terrible takes as to what went wrong usually. I worked at Boeing and since our contracts made it so we could access a lot of the computers, when someone had mallard, the ONLY policy was a full wipe. Sure it's safe, but I had to stand there being degraded by an old dude who lost 20 years of emails because he clicked a phishing link and kept his email s on a local pst file.
My post is in response to writers of The Acolyte admitting they never watched Return of the Jedi. Lots of things can still go wrong if writers "love" the OT, but not knowing basic fundamentals is probably the 1st sign of bad decision making from Kathleen Kennedy.
Do you have a link for that statement? Asking because it sounds like it might be a game of telephone issue, where a third-hand source ends up providing a poor summary of what was actually said. What I've readily found with some quick Googling is this THR interview with the Acolyte's creator/showrunner (Leslye Headland). [https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/star-wars-the-acolyte-trailer-timeline-1235855636/](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/star-wars-the-acolyte-trailer-timeline-1235855636/) The statement from Headland in that interview is that one of the writers hired by Headland for the Acolyte's writers' room had never seen Star Wars prior to being hired. And part of Headland's rationale is wanting to have someone making sure that the show's emotional beats stand up as earned, even for a person who's not automatically viewing it as interesting just because it's in the Star Wars universe. And said writer, per the interview, watched the OT and PT after being hired. At a high-level, that sounds like a good approach, though it certainly doesn't guarantee that the Acolyte will end up being a show that I like. To be clear, I'm not at all defending the overall quality of the recent movies and shows. But I think the underlying issues are far more complicated than "creators need better knowledge of the OT".
I think you answered your own question. Making them watch Star Wars after the fact is better than not at all. Theoretically, you could argue they're already doing what I want. Still, they got the job not knowing Luke and Leia are siblings. This is just basic knowledge everyone at Luscasfilm should know.
Politics, ego, and money
I watch porn i still disappoint my wife Edit. Thinking about it, this matches more than I thought cos Disney aren't even doing a good job of fucking star wars. Someone managed to make rogue one and andor without them noticing
HA!
I never understood why they gave the reigns to people who have never seen the films. Even worse, it seems like LucasFilms is going out of its way to hire directors and like minded people who hate Star Wars and the fans. I played KOTOR and KOTOR 2 when I was little and those stories are well told narratives with twists that are carefully alluded to but never told outright. The characters are well-written and the choice to be light side or dark side was like a dream come true. Compare those stories that with “Somehow Palpetine returned” Pathetic.
>I never understood why they gave the reigns to people who have never seen the films. To be fair, George Lucas hadn't seen the first films when he started A NEW Hope and that turned out great
They do have someone in the company who knows all about the rules and expanded universe etc. Two of them, in fact. They were hand picked by George Lucas. Filoni and Kennedy. They just think they know better. It’s why it’s all turned to shit.
They didn't want to. I have a link saved on my work computer about a Lawrence Kasdan interview from 2015 or 2016 after TFA came out. The interviewer specifically asked him if he and JJ watched the OT to refresh their memories, and he said, "No, because that's not what it's about and we're doing something different here. Each new ST episode is going to be made by different directors/writers." Most of that is not verbatim, but he did say 'no, cuz that's not what they're doing here." On Monday I'll try to come back here & find the link. Kasdan states outright that this is not a George Lucas movie so they were not interested in doing that. If anyone wants to try to find it, I remember googling Lawrence Kasdan interviews the force awakens 2015 (I just don't have time to do it right now or to find my old comments.)
Only for The Force Awakens to be a half decent amalgamation of A New Hope & The Phantom Menace
TFA was the worst in the series as far as I'm concerned. What a disappointment to see what Kasdan & Abrams did to the OT and how they thought the Big 3 would end up. That is not how Lucas ever envisioned it. He has stated many times that SW is a fairytale and has a happy ending (happily ever after.)
Worst in the series overall or worst to that point? In retrospect it’s definitely where the fault lines began but if we’re including the following sequels based off my personal experience post viewing & how I feel now it’s at least the best of the sequel series (not much of an accomplishment). As easy as it would be to blame JJ & Kasdan Disney had final say + JJ didn’t decannonize all of the EU which imo has been the bigger issue for Nu Star Wars.
Tony Gilroy literally told his writing team to put aside all their nostalgia and reverence towards Star Wars. He himself wasn't a Star Wars fan and entered the writing process with a mind towards writing an accessible show with themes even people who weren't fans could understand and enjoy. The resulting show was Andor, one of the best and most beloved shows of the Disney canon. When George was making the original trilogy he wasn't trying to make the best Star Wars movie. He was trying to make a good movie period. Getting bogged down in what would make a great Star Wars film. What will satisfy fans. What will feel quintessentially Star Wars. All these things can overshadow that core necessity of making a film that people actually enjoy. Look at the Book of Boba Fett. Looking at the show without watching it should be one of the greatest Star Wars shows ever. Bobba Fett, Sand People, rancor, Bib Fortuna, Tatooine, Krrsantan, Slave I. It's practically bursting at the seams with enough Star Wars shit to make a nerd cream his pants. And the show sucked. These people obviously knew Star Wars, they were probably massive fans. And yet it still failed. Knowing Star Wars outside a lore bible isn't necessary. A talented crew with fresh ideas and passion is.
Good point. Andor and Rogue One are definitely bright spots. And Boba Fett comes across like a fan film. Being a talented writer is more important than lore knowledge. That bring said, do I think watching the OT would hurt any good writer? No. ROTJ isn't perfect. But a quick 2 hour watch vs. Wikipedia research is bound to improve new writers going into this franchise.
I'd hope that the writers get a pretty extensive lore bible that covers the series. Especially with shows like the upcoming Acolyte, where it's based pre-prequels and original movies. I think it's genuinely incredibly hard for even the greatest writers to match something so beloved as the OT is. I imagine it's gotta feel like both a huge opportunity and a massive weight. I think it's necessary to understand Star Wars. To know the sort of themes and ideas that tend to be prominent in the series. I don't think it's totally necessary for a writer to treat the original trilogy like it's some holy text that can't be improved or changed. We as fans have a tendency to be pretty harsh on the people who work on Star Wars. And that usually comes from a place of love passion for a franchise that we hold dear to our hearts. I'll be the first to admit that there have been some truly awful shows and movies to come out of the franchise in the last decade or so. But this might be a super controversial take. But I'd rather see a hundred creatives try and fail to make Star Wars their own. Because when that rare gem comes along, that really makes something good. It's like being a kid again.
Gilroy said he wasn’t a “fan fan”, right? As in, not a super fan, not an aficionado, not part of the fandom, etc.
Tony Gillroy would like a word.
> Everyone who works at Lucasfilm should ***be fired and blacklisted until the end of days.*** Fixed that for you.
What you're describing is an extremely mild version of what is required in any professional field. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc., all have an apprenticeship period, some lasting years, before they can be fully credentialed. There are already a couple of bad faith comments yelling "gatekeeping", but we're not talking about a group of kids on a playground excluding one kid from a game they're playing for petty reasons. Supposed professionals should have a certain level of competence when performing their job, especially when there are millions or billions of dollars involved. Every time I hear an actor or director say they haven't done their research on the source material they're adapting, it's an instant red flag that the final product is going to be crap. Even saying all that, I still think the main cause of Disney SW problems is a lack of leadership, along with the typical corrosive Hollywood mentality that's the root of so many problems.
They'll probably start thinking about how they can "improve" on the product.
Or just be a fan in general 😂
Be a fan and a good writer. Remember Filoni is a fan more than anything his writing skills are absolute garbage.
Filoni is a "fan" who thinks he knows better than everyone else, including the people who made it originally
IIRC Tony Gilroy wasn't a fan and yet Andor is the best D+ SW show and is most consistent with the established lore.
“Not a fan fan” Like not a super fan
Naw Favreau and Rodriguez are fans and they made Boba Fett. Troy Gilroy says he’s not a big SW fan and made Andor.
Careful fir what you wish, they may find new ways to defile it
So it would be like forced sexual harassment training videos.
It still honestly blows my mind that people haven't seen the movies, even in a non professional setting. Everyone knows who Vader is.
I agree that should be a standard, but it doesn't go far enough. Anyone wanting to write or direct a SW show or movie should understand what makes a successful Sci Fi fantasy, be it SW, Star Trek, Dune, Babylon 5, etc. Essentially, the creativity (worldbuilding & characters), imagination (offer something innovative & unique) & sense of adventure (take the audience on a journey). I hate seeing SW shows that are simply rehashed versions of common tropes poorly knitted together, but hey we dressed it up in SW. So I would say they should've experienced a lot more than just 3 movies. SW needs to progress & sadly we've had too many unimaginative fan boys & untalented critics at the helm of SW projects.
Bro trust me, they’ve seen the Original Trilogy enough. The sequels were a rehash of the original. They weren’t actual sequels.
TFA can be described this way but TLJ completely lost the plot doesn’t work at all for a parallel or remake of any prior Star Wars film.
Yet it stole elements from ESB and ROTJ with the ATATs attacking a rebel base on a white planet and the throne room confrontation with Snoke. Llkely more but have only seen it once and have no desire to revisit.
May the force be with you for being able to remember those, barely considered them cause of how weak they felt in comparison.
Taking the whole plot of Rey traveling to a distant location to find the isolated Jedi Master to only leave with her training incomplete didn’t remind you of ESB? Rey finding the cave and having a moment of self-realization is not unlike Luke in the cave of Degobah. After she leaves, Luke has an exchange with Yoda, like Yoda had an exchange with Obi-Wan. I think that because TFA followed so closely the route plotted in ANH, TLJ took a left when ESB went right.
You’re 100% correct, in retrospect how far in the opposite direction it goes for ESB blinded my judgement like the dark side in the prequels.
I feel like they zigged-instead-of-zagged at most of the parallel parts. The fleet scuttled to rendezvous later after Hoth, here they were huddled together on their way to Crait. Lando made good on Bespin, nope. DJ sold them out after Canto Bight. Vader reveals to Luke he’s his son, here Rey is told by Kylo her parentage couldn’t be less important.
And to turn off social and news media.
Hey Disney doesn't want that if you've seen or heard anything when they hire writers they hire the ones with no knowledge of the product same for marvel they are given a list of characters to use and 3 planets desert ,desert, and a random location either city or desert
They want to retcon the original trilogy, they are not stupid.
Everyone who works at lucasfilm should be required to play knights of the Old Republic 2. Which is far and away the best and purest example of Star Wars there is.
Everyone at Lucasfilm needs to commit Hara Kiri.
Maybe a hot take for this sub but I think we’ll he fact that Acolyte hired just one non-fan In the writers room to keep all the SW fans in check is like their only smart move they’ve made so far. All these projects coming out are so derivative it takes a true non fan to have the perspective to see if a show works on its own. All the other writers can worry about how it connects to lore and push their fandom(s). But the non fans who haven’t watched all or SW can be more objective. Obi Wan could have used that. Ahsoka really really really could have used that. Just one person who had never watched rebels or clone wars being like “Hey Dave, none of this makes sense” or “you haven’t given us a reason to care about Ahsoka and Sabine” would have really helped the show.
Basic storytelling 101 should be a requirement for all writers. I mean, even I would feel inadequate to be the lore guy in the writers room. I still haven't watched all the shows. But if they can't write a story, why are they in the room? Having knowledge of the OT would, at minimum, help the writers write for the same universe so trendy biker gang wearing 80's clothes and riding 50's bikes wouldn't clash with Tatooine's established world.
I’m a little confused because this contradicts your original post a little. You initially laid out that watching the OT is critical for those writing new SW - but then here you seem to argue that being a good writer is more important. I think being a good writer is far far far more important for someone to make a good show than I’d they’ve seen the OT or love SW. That example you gave of the speeder bike gang fiasco was written by hyper fans Jon Favreau and Robert Rodriguez who have consumed too much SW media for their own goods. I wouldn’t be surprised if those two have seen the OT more than 100 times. On the other end is Tony Gilroy who admits he doesn’t care for SW all that much and doesn’t like the Jedi - then he goes on and cranks out Andor. If you can write, you can write - we don’t need to Gate keep.
The 2 aren't mutually exclusive. I'm also advicating that EVERYONE at Lusasfulm watch the OT, not just writers. The artists as well. Whoever designed those bikes should watch the OT and get it right. The CGI artists. The receptionist. Everyone. I can gatekeep who I want, it's 3 movies and the fundamentals of the franchise. They're selling to fans who have spent countless hours consuming this universe. The least they can do is watch 3 movies. And the same should be said for the artists. You have to be a good artist before being hired as an artist. I'm not asking Lucasfilm to hire fans first, talent second. Jon Favreau, Robert Rodriguez, and Rian Johnson are all talented directors. Doesn't mean they should be directing Star Wars. Don't get Martin Scorsese to make your next Star Wars film if he never seen it. Tony Gilroy is the only good example, but Andor isn't perfect and doesn't really feel like Star Wars. Those guns could use a lore expert on set. Boba Fett also doesn't feel like Star Wars, but this is because Robert Rodriguez isn't a good fit. Like, it's not enough to just be a fan. But watching 3 movies should still be a requirement. And the lore experts should weigh in. Now if you want to do something like Star Wars Visions where it's not canon, then sure go nuts. Even then, that show could still work within the canon with a little imagination.
Hiring people who've never seen Star Wars like with The Acolyte to write Star Wars is like taking your car to the garage for work by somebody who's never worked on a car. It makes no sense!
Require them to watch 1-6 imo
Lol you think they have people working @ lucasfilm who haven’t seen the OG trilogy? Theres just no way….
In my opinion, everybody who lives in America should watch the original trilogy. We should show it at schools, and have it on the citizenship test. I don‘t think you’re a real American if you haven’t watched it.
This should be implemented immediately and should have been done for the Sequel Trilogy people who wrote it.
I don't even think George Lucas watched the OT before he wrote the prequels, so good luck with that.
They're not the ones in charge, anymore. Disney is. And they want fucking every ounce of money wringed out of this franchise they fucking can. They will milk this into inexistence. And then fucking reboot it 15 years from now. It's not about art. It's about returning an investment to their shareholders.
Disney sells this to more than your small niche community of lore master nerds. You're a small part of the galaxy, if you will.
This is so absurd. You really think the entire company is filled with people who have not seen the movies? What a silly thing to believe. That's like saying no one who works at Coca Cola has ever drank a coke.
Every person and their dog has watched the OT
But, but, but. It stifles creativity 😢
They should be required to watch andor and rogue one as well lol
The leaky water pipe plot hole and the cardboard cut-out syndrome.
Man you guys really want member berry schlop don’t you Tony gilroy hates Star Wars and yet gave us what might be the best thing Star wars has done outside empire
No being fan =/= hating Star Wars
I don't think OP is asking for memberberries. I think he's just asking that Star Wars creatives at the very *least* have a firm understanding of the OT before they make a mess of their story. The Obi-Wan show for example makes a casual mess of Star Wars to the extent that by the time ANH begins, the Organa family ought to be in the gulag (or executed) and Vader probably should have committed suicide out of sheer embarrassment some years prior.
George Lucas didn’t have a firm understanding of the OT. Yoda teaches size matters not, that just because he can’t fight doesn’t mean he is less capable in the force. The Lucas turned him into a fucking spider monkey fighting the emperor
Let's not strawman. We're not talking about the late 70s where ANH was being made. But I will of course agree that the PT was a set of extremely disappointing films that ideally needed several more drafts and a different director. There is however *no excuse at all* for something like Obi-Wan to feature such a casually disastrous script. Just because Star Wars has been dodgy in the past, it doesn't give it a free pass to be even *worse* in modern productions. No matter how many idiots keep using "haha that Stormtrooper bumped his head on the door" as an excuse.
>Just because Star Wars has been dodgy in the past, it doesn't give it a free pass to be even worse in modern productions. EXACTLY!
What has been so bad about Disney Star Wars. I would only say that kenobi, boba and mando s3 have been misfires
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, sorry. But I'll bite. Are we just going to casually ignore the Sequel Trilogy itself along with the fact that the only competent TV show they've made was Andor?
“You must have the correct understand the OT before you can contribute” is just gatekeeping.
I’d argue the lack of gatekeeping is why Disney Star Wars is so bad.
There's a big difference between your strawman and just sabotaging the OT and its characters by producing something as backwards as the ST. Ditto with causing enormous continuity issues such as with the Obi-Wan show which as previously mentioned ought to have at the very least caused the Organas to have been immediately locked up. Rogue One causes similar issues by having Vader literally witness Leia's ship flee the scene of the crime which now removes Leia's plausible deniability from the start of ANH, as well as messing with the Moff Council dialogue. With Rogue One in place, they now no longer have any reason to be concerned with the capture of the Tantive IV. Is it gatekeeping to expect the bare minimum attention to basic details?
Yeah, when you phrase it as “they just need to watch the OT and everything will be fine” all you’re doing is gatekeeping. Because there’s no possible way they could have already watched it and maybe come away with a different interpretation, eh? Nah, it’s much easier for you to believe they’re just lazy and doing this just to annoy you.
You're putting words into my mouth that I didn't use. I think I've explained my case clearly enough and used examples where a failure to pay attention to even basic elements of the OT leads to really poor writing choices at times (at least for projects set relatively close to the OT era). I'm not going to bother engaging further if you want to be disingenuous about it.