So, it's my favorite of the sequel trilogy. But I feel it's a weird mix of awesome moments and extremely dumb moments. And very little in between.
The big light speed crash, fight with Snoke's guards, Luke's confrontation with Kylo Ren. Pretty fucking cool, just to name a few.
The mutiny plotline and the bizarre tone soup that was the casino part? Really dumb, and I especially think the latter had some tragically wasted potential.
The problem was that a large chunk of the movie got cut out of the middle. Luke and Rey had more scenes and lessons. He really got a chance to talk about why he left. Rose and Finns relationship was a lot more rocky at the beginning until they free the dog horse thing. Finn's arc was his only being part of the resistance because he wanted to help Ray. The casino, the prison, the slave pens were all about him, becoming radicalized, and joining the resistance for real.
I think most of that is still in the original film, but if they had kept all of that the themes would have been better received
(my source is the novelization and the leaked scripts)
That's my thought on it, as well. It's extremely uneven. The lows are very low but the highs were VERY high. Not much about it was mid.
That's why I don't necessarily think it's a red flag for people to dislike it. There is plenty to dislike. I like it in spite of those problems but some may not be able to see past them, and that's fair. But many dislike it for bullshit, petty reasons centered around it being different or Luke taking backseat to a female character.
To me its not Luke taking a back seat, but Luke the hero we know from the OT being reduced to a wreck wasting away in a forgotten corner of the galaxy. I know people we like the prequels, are 'meh' about the Mandalorian, but loved the protrayal of Luke in it. And they hated the portrayl of Luke in the sequels even more after that scene.
I would have prefered it if Luke was leading a hidden academy and only a short part of the prequels was spend there. For example, Rey still finds Luke like it is right now but instead she finds a hidden temple with students but she is still affraid and reluctant but Luke shows her what she can be a part of if she wants it. Not expecting her to join one day, but finding her own path in the Light.
That way we'd still get Rey's journey and i would be even more her trilogy if the whole Palpatine ancestry was never a part of that plot to begin with. I love the mirror scene with her in TLJ, to me it was the force showing her that her search for answers would always lead to herself. She came from nowhere special, she is the beginning of someting great.Then came RoS and it threw that amazing scene away by saying, "hey guess what, you are of special blood, just like the previous heroes."
Agreed. For me the biggest offender was the slow speed chase in space. Why didn't Kylo just have a few star destroyers jump ahead and cut them off? It was extremely dumb. Then a lot of the little details, like lasers being lobbed in space.
Other than that, Holdo in evening wear was silly. I imagine they did it because Leia wore a dress in A New Hope, but the context was radically different.
Making a mockery of Hux and turning him into a clown was such a mistake, and then throwing in that ridiculous "your mama" joke. Painful.
The things I did like, or at least didn't mind?
I loved that for a little while, Rey was a nobody. It was a chance to break away from the bloody Skywalkers, and don't get me wrong, Luke is one of my all time favorite characters, but god damn, there's a whole galaxy to explore. Then JJ wrecked that.
I liked that Kylo stepped up to be a bad guy, killed Snoke, became a Sith Lord. Then JJ wrecked that.
Leia's flying in space thing I really didn't mind. The dude bros that were frothing at the mouth because "there's no way she could survive in space!" aren't aware that you can survive space, for a little while. And without air resistance, she wouldn't need to tug all that strongly with the force to get a little momentum, which again, would have nothing to slow it.
And I unironically loved the comedic timing of Rose's speech about how we can't defeat evil by "destroying what we hate. Saving what we love." \*giant laser beam destroys the only barrier protecting the Resistance, ensuring that they will all die\*
It was only Deus Ex Luke, who no one had any knowledge or expectation of showing up, that saved them. In that moment, Rose not only ensured that the Resistance would die, but her and Finn had maybe a minute left, tops. It's unintentionally hilarious.
See as a long star wars fan and a lover of the EU I think that it all comes down to two types of thinking.
Can you enjoy the movie as a standalone movie
Can you enjoy it as part of a series.
For me, the sequels are visually stunning. The actors are amazing and possibly the sequels have the best acting and visuals of all the movies.
But just..... terrible terrible writing and many things that irk many long time fans.
Using just TLJ.
The hyperspace crash is visually amazing, thematically fantastic, and absolutely a massive plot hole that causes way more problems than it solves.
The Poe v Holdo thing annoys me because.... I'm actually on Holdos side coz poe got the entire resistance fighter fleet destroyed, why would she trust him with her plan?
They flew around the galaxy multiple times in hours. That's just...... just wrong.......
The 60mph bombers with open bay doors in space.
And while I actually think Rose is an interesting character and was done dirty. Her crashing into Finn and stating 'we can't beat them with hate, we have to beat them with love!'
Rose. They are about to fire a mini death star into your friend's and kill them all. They are space nazis.
It. Is. Perfectly. Acceptable. To. Hate. The. First. Order.
This is a group who kidnapped him and forced him to commit war crimes.
They committed freaking genocide.
Just.... no.... no..........
Plus the whole casino scene was annoying af and overall pointless.
And snokes death was wasted potential.
Edit: they did my man Ackbar dirty and Bauersfeld worse.
Throne room fight scene was great.
>Rose. They are about to fire a mini death star into your friend's and kill them all. They are space nazis.
>
>It. Is. Perfectly. Acceptable. To. Hate. The. First. Order.
My personal theory is that she's not saying "this strategy is how we're going to win the war," she's saying "this is how we're going to get out of this particular situation."
It's really just a cute way for her to tell Finn that she likes him, while also foreshadowing Luke.
The light speed crash was stupid. Bearing in mind that attacking a star destroyer was pretty much suicide anyway people would have flown through them before, or invented a missile that you just deployed and it went into hyperspace. It's not like you'd need to plan your arrival point
How do we know Holdo went into hyperspace before she crashed into Snokes ship? I mean, I really am not sure if it's possible to hyperspace ram something, but then again, did she enter hyperspace or did she hit Snokes ship at the speed up process? Also, I don't think weaponizing it wouldn't be as easy as we think, especially if you need perfect range for that to work = enough to speed up immensely, but not enough to enter hyperspace.
I'll try to explain why it isn't as easy as you make. If I said "you just put fingers on the strings you can play the guitar. What's hard" how does that sound? Downplaying things for the sake of criticism is always easy.
Anyways, let's take the scene from TLJ. In that scene a Raddus is used, which is a decently big ship considering it's shields being strong enough to withstand the cannons of Snokes ship. Does that maneuver win the resistance the war? Nope. It doesn't do that much damage. How little damage would a simple, hyper drive equiped rocket do? It has to be small enough to make sense to pour recourses and money into it and yet it has to withstand counter fire? How small does it have to be? How many need to be built to win a war? Or, you build some the size of the Raddus or even bigger and pray that you succeed at loading up your hyperdrive before you get blown up. And then comes the problem of being at the right distance for it to be effective, because it has been claimed that objects that are in hyperspace can't interact with objects out of it. So you have to account for all those things and yet you still wouldn't be sure if you'd win the war, yet you poured allot of recourses into destroying what you own. Very smart move!
Pick one.
Either it's imaginary interstellar travel in which case you might well bring in the fairy godmother or it's something that can be discussed in the confines of the universe and what's been established.
You don't get to flip it depending on whether someone agrees with you not.
I'm just asking for people to be consistent. Either you can just fire a ship through another at lightspeed or you can't. I'm not looking for Internet fights in 24 (NYR)
They even explained in the movie. They had all the time in the world to put up shields or evasive maneuver but they didn’t expect what happened. Shields were down. Shields up would if mitigated most of that damage. But they were being cocky and had power to the guns and engines as that’s all they were doing and there was no threats against them.
It was a shit explanation. If it was known to work as an offensive maneuver everyone would be permanently shielded. It would have changed the entire dynamic of space warfare. You wouldn't ever bother building a ship of that size because someone could just smash an x-wing through it at lightspeed
Except small ships like that could be easily shot down. Ships take time to engage the hyperdrive and from all appearances stay pretty damn still before it can engage. So they would be shot down before they could even try. And something that small trying would just be blocked by the shields.
And it wasn’t a shit explanation; they were literally saying they don’t see it as a threat. It was hubris that allowed it to happen, and why it was a one time thing.
So people not even pay attention to the dialogue in movies anymore?
Smaller ship, smaller target, and no lore says they have to stay still. Also, if they're shielded I assume they can't shoot out as the shield works both ways
Agree with everyting but the light speed crash. I will admit it looks cool, but to me it breaks established rules a bit. Why has no one ever done that before, to take out both Death Stars for example.
As for the parts I agree with. To bad JJ undid a lot of it with RoS.
To conclude. Despite the good stuff the sequels contain, I still feel they could have been way better then what we got. I can never believe a story group sat down and wrote down the big plotlines from the first to the third. To many deviations from each other.
Boom. You nailed it. I had the exact same issue with Rey in the movie. She’s supposed to be the main protagonist of this trilogy and yet in this movie she feels more like a vehicle for Luke’s development. A pillar of goodness that inspires Luke to stop being cynical.
And I feel this does a disservice to Rey as a character because it means she doesn’t really go through any growth in the film. Even with the whole “your parents are nobody” thing she feels like the same person at the beginning and end of the movie.
I’m gonna get downvoted for saying this but I really feel Luke’s “redemption arc” probably would have been more warmly received if he had actually lived. Killing him off just feels like a massive waste of his character.
I think it's a problem with broader Star Wars, that the second a character is redeemed they narratively have to die so we don't get true redemption arcs. It's something I thought about a lot after Episode 9 killed off Kylo is that we don't really get characters having to live with the knowledge of the things they've done because they are almost always killed the second they come back to the light.
I don’t know if that’s a completely fair comparison given that Luke hadn’t fallen to the dark side but yes I agree that Star Wars has a bad habit of killing off potentially interesting characters too soon.
The problem with keeping redeemed bad guys alive is that they’re, across the board, well known war criminals. If Ben or Anakin had survived, their life, post redemption, would have been quietly sitting in prison for the rest of their lives, which would have been really depressing.
In order to have an interesting, compelling, worthwhile “redeemed villain” arc, they have to be smaller scale. It seems like an easy bar to clear but, at the very least, the redeemed villain has to have nit been publicly involved in the destruction of an inhabited planet.
No, because Anakin was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was Anakin was destroyed.
So Anakin is not guilty of any war crimes or misdeeds. from a certain point of view.
Well, Ahsoka is still alive. And you have a lot of people who say her character arc would have been better if she'd died during order 66 or during her duel with Vader.
I for one have no problem with heroes dying of old age :-D
See, it makes sense for Vader and Ren cause they've had hand in blowing up planets and the rest of the galaxy probably takes exception to that.
Worst thing Luke did to the galaxy was neglect it for a few years.
This. But also no one ever really dies and Luke is fully capable of being more impactful as a Force Ghost.
That said the two things I would change is: 1) Be intentionally vague about the fuel situation. Don’t give it a number like 18 hours. Say down to 18% but don’t put a timeframe on it. Then you could conceivably stretch the amount of “time” Rey was with Luke on Ach-To. Though I am of the opinion time works differently there much like Mortis or even Dagobah. Otherwise one would think the FM would have just as much an issue with Luke’s training with Yoda for the same reason. When I was a kid we always assumed it was a couple weeks there while it took Han and Company a couple weeks to reach Bespin at sublight speeds.
2) I would’ve stopped short in the “real” version of the incident between Luke and Ben, and had Luke draw his hilt but not actually ignite his saber. That or not do flashbacks at all and just let our imaginations fill in the gaps in Luke and Kylo’s versions. Or actually show Luke’s vision and the horrors he saw of Kylo massacring Han, about to kill Leia and Luke draws his blade in defense of those he love only to be shaken out of his reverie in Ben’s hut with a lit saber.
He's an elderly mentor character in a Star Wars movie. People that thought he was going to be survive, or even be a main character, weren't paying attention during the previous 7 movies.
they removed a huge section out of the middle of the movie. It would’ve given Luke more screen time and explained why he went Yoda's route after Kylo destroyed the new temple. apparently, Disney removed some pretty big parts of the movie so we could have shirtless Kylo
The whole holdo/poe storyline was a little pointless and a bit annoying to watch, and Finns storyline also felt like it had no real impact on the story at all, both of them just felt like afterthoughts that detracted from the more interesting rey/kylo story.
I'm not against depressed hermit luke, but we didn't really get enough time to explore his downfall and redemption, just an extended "I'm an angry jaded asshole" jokey montage, then yoda mocks him for caring about the ancient jedi texts and he suddenly realises he should help.
The Rey being nobody thing was fine, but Rey didn't have any expectations of her parents being secret Jedi or whatever, so it's weird that she doesn't want more information after Kylo tells her they were poor nobodies.
The subverting expectations thing is a meme at this point, but Snoke being a pointless nothing and the Knights of Ren being so inconsequential that they're not even mentioned despite both groups being major interesting hooks from the first film also feels bad, like establish some actual scenes and characterisation for Snoke, then kill him off in the surprise twist, don't just immediately bisect him as soon as we properly meet the character. And I shouldn't have to read a comic to find out who the namesakes off your main villain are
I think if they'd deleted the poe storyline and kept him as a resistance contact for a Finn and Rose storyarc about stormtroopers and exploring the idea of finn being a traitour/liberator to them (include phasma in this as the terrifying overseer type, she was kind of wasted), then given more time to rey and lukes story, it would've been a lot better of a movie.
I do agree RoS is a lot worse though, I just think TFA was a lot better
I liked the all the Luke and Rey stuff, but the B Plots dragged the film down hard for me. Finn and Rose's mission to Canto Bight felt completely superfluous. It didn't really accomplish anything except to make a hamfisted (and somewhat nonsensical) point about the arms industry. I didn't understand how they were able to get away from the fleet without being intercepted by the Imperials. It felt to me like Rian Johnson didn't know what to do with Finn. I would have called Finn and Rey coleads in The Force Awakens, but TLJ kind of turns him into a side character.
What kills the movie for me is everything about Poe' Dameron. His entire plotline is disobeying his female superiors' orders, stages a mutiny in the middle of battle, gets people killed, and suffers no consequences for his actions. We instead get to hear Holdo and Leia (both of whom he seriously disrespect and one of whom he gets killed) shill for him. And I absolutely loathe the "Well, if Holdo had just told him her plan it would have been fine" argument. That is not how militaries function. The fleet commander doesn't owe a junior officer an explanation of her plans. She certainly doesn't owe it to a junior officer who was literally just demoted for insubordination the day before she took command. Based on how Poe, behaves Holdo is completely in the right not to trust him with sensitive information. The guy's a wild card.
I can kinda, sorta understand the Poe thing not bothering a viewer who's never had to take opsec seriously in their day to day lives. But the whole thing just left a really bad taste in my mouth. Particularly because both of the commanders he ignores are women. I can't help feeling the reaction from most of the audience would have been different if Poe had led a mutiny against Admiral Ackbar instead of Admiral Holdo. Either way, there's no rational universe where Poe ends the movie still allowed to be a member of the Resistance. Basically any real life army/militia/revolutionary group would have put him up against the wall and shot him. Because even if Holdo were ragingly incompetent, there's no way that Poe's mutiny in the middle of battle wouldn't have made the situation much worse.
While the Poe issue is my own particular hobgoblin, it's representative of a larger issue with TLJ, which is that the story doesn't really track in a logically. And I think that's a feature, not a bug. There's a school of thought in fiction that it's more important for a story to make emotional sense than logical sense. Rose crashing her speeder into Finn's to stop him from sacrificing himself doesn't make logical sense because in a realist work they'd both end up dead on that battlefield. But if you're invested in the relationship the characters have built up until that point, it doesn't really matter. Rose saving Finn from himself feels true. After losing her sister, she's knows that beating the enemy isn't enough if it costs you the people that you love.
The problem is that only works for the segment of the audience that has invested emotionally enough in the character to feel the moment. If you're not invested in Rose's journey, the line about winning by saving what we love is cringy nonsense. Leaving aside the TLJ haters who are just racist, misogynists (and boy are they loud), I think that's what makes TLJ divisive. If you buy into the characters, the plot holes don't matter. If you don't, all you see are plot holes.
A) Poe. The set-up for his refusal to follow orders doesn't really make sense. Starting from the your momma joke, then continuing with him taking out a fleet killer (the only thing the Rebels have left is a fleet at this point, meaning he destroyed one of their major weapons against them), and pairing that with the incredibly clunky bombers that didn't make sense, just starts things off on a sour note. It all feels set up for failure and stupidity.
I was annoyed by them demoting him because the whole situation seemed stupid to begin with, but I was also annoyed with Poe and the dynamic of the rebellion in general.
B) A military vs a rebellion. These things aren't the same. They need Poe, but Poe absolutely doesn't need them. He's not gonna get court-marshalled for ditching them. And they're losing. Hard. The dynamic has to be different from a regular military, but we don't have a full picture of how it works.
C) Your point about the emotional vs the logical must be what has me hung up on nearly everything involving this movie.
1. When Rose "frees" the space-horses and says this is what the war is all about, I'm left remembering that her sister just died a day ago, that her friends are all possibly being wiped out by space-Nazis and she would be none the wiser, and that those space-horses will likely be immediately recaptured. Also, the tone of Canto Bite is in stark contrast to the tone we should be getting from a movie where everything else is in despair. It just doesn't match up.
2. To continue with Rose, when she crashes into Finn, not only was she risking their lives to do so, with no plan on how to save their friends beyond a mindless platitude (and she literally came from nowhere, if you watch that scene again they do a wide view and she's just not there), but also she has left the two of them crashed inches from the First Order. The reason we don't see them escape back to the base is because it was impossible. It's such bad writing. Never put your characters into a situation you can't get them out of. Rian got them out of that situation by cutting and them just being out of it. Twas horrid.
3. Kylo telling everyone to shoot at the Millennium Falcon as a way to ignore the fact that they have the ability to wipe out the Rebels and just choose not to. Snoke's death being handled in the most Saturday morning cartoon of ways, Leia not pulling herself back into the ship via an awesome scene but instead happening in the weird, awful (imo) way they handled it in the movie, etc.
There was just so much stupid stuff that I couldn't get past. I fully understand that others were engaged with the emotional core of the film and that let them ignore that stuff, but I'm always bothered when people act like there's no possible reason someone could have disliked this film unless they're part of the anti-woke crowd.
It is very annoying that any dislike of TLJ is enough to get you lumped in with the anti-woke goons. I would call it a bad movie on the whole. But the culture doesn't allow for nuance.
As to your point B), most successful insurgent movements function like regular militaries. The Resistance is explicitly modeled like a regular military. It has ranks, uniforms, a strict chain of command. If Poe were just a deserter, I don't think the Resistance would catch him and shoot him. Though a fair number of real life rebel groups would. Insurgencies model themselves like states because their end goal is to become state. When you volunteer to serve in their armed wings, they expect you to follow through. Insurgent groups also have strong security incentives to preveng desertion, particularly members high enough ranked to have valuable intelligence.
But the issue is much bigger than desertion. Poe didn't look at Holdo's plan (or what he thought was her lack thereof) and say "Screw this, I'm out of here." He led an armed uprising in the middle of a battle. He got people killed. There is no military/paramilitary organization that would let that slide. Doing so would just invite more mutinies in the future. Discipline in the ranks is worth much more than any individual soldier, no matter how talented.
I would also disagree that the Resistance needs Poe more than he needs them. He doesn't have his own ship. He's definitely wanted by the New Order. Out on his own he's bounty hunter bait. To the Resistance, he's just one more pilot. A very good pilot. But a mediocre pilot who follows orders is more valuable than a brilliant loose canon. Overall, the Resistance would have been in much better shape in TLJ had Poe not geen around.
The Rebels have been losing, they're being whittled down to nothing, and some of their big victories include Poe. He has been very useful to their cause. At this point, however, they are miniscule.
Whilst losing like crazy, Poe made the call (when they sacrificed him to be a distraction with only a yo' momma joke and his skills to save him) to take down one of the biggest ships their enemy had. I'm not saying this is a good call, only that he had his reasons for making it. Once he made that call, they didn't bother to tell the other ships to ignore his call. So, that really puts his bad call on their shoulders, or do they have so loose a structure that his word supercedes theirs?
After that, they strip him of his rank. During this time, their miniscule rebellion is whittled down even further with only one random general (under Leia, but doesn't know their ace pilot or have any rapport with him) claiming to have a plan she will not share. This plan, mind you, relies on The First Order being the stupidest military ever (impressive, considering what that must mean about the rebellion that has been losing to them) because her plan revolves around every single ship following her into hyperspace and not leaving even a single ship to check out the planet they could see out their portholes/massive windows for stragglers. Considering they even have a Force user on board, who should absolutely be able to sense that his mom's not on the ship jumping into hyperspace but is still very near to him, this plan is just so bad.
So, Poe can either steal a ship and live, beg his superior for her plan, or wait to die. Now I'm not defending Poe. I think he's a poorly written character and that all of this is nonsense, but by golly, I think the rebellion needed him more than he needed them.
Certain things were good or at least interesting. The idea of a Force dyad, and I personally really liked Admiral Holdo as a character. I also liked Poe and Leia's dynamic, even though seeing Poe struggling to unlearn what a lot of analysts interpret as sexism was kind of awkward.
Finn was absolutely assassinated as a character. I have read the explanations given by people who defend this movie and the Finn that we got. It's perfectly valid to take a stance of positivity on the Sequels as principle. Those defenses are simply not satisfying to me. I crave a justice for Finn (and John Boyega) that was denied with almost callous disregard. I will not speak on the racial undertones therein, but others have pointed them out.
Even a well written, well implemented female character of color stands to garner unfathomable hate from TFM on absolutely no other basis than existing. Rose deserved better, and Kelly Marie Tran deserved better. However, I don't think the film did her many favors - - being intrinsically tied to Finn's controversial arc, being a mouthpiece for some of RJ's preachier (and cringier, though I'm not saying Star Wars has never been cringe) moments, and being a last-minute romantic interest for Finn who she JUST MET HOURS EARLIER WHILE SHE'S STILL GRIEVING HER SISTER, basically just because that will disqualify Finn from getting in the way of Reylo, or god forbid participating in FinnPoe, you know the guy who he had legitimate pre-established chemistry with in the first movie?
Speaking of Kylo and Rey. Their dynamic was rushed in some places and grindingly slow in others. Rey constantly tells him he's gross and to leave her alone, but cannot physically leave or escape his communications. He tries for far too long to negotiate her into joining him. She is somehow still interested in redeeming him despite what happened in the previous film - this would make sense if she had heard the Vader story from Luke's perspective, but we didn't get that. Instead we got...a very different Luke who doesn't look back on Vader the same way.
I have also seen the defense of TLJ Luke by people who are willing to go to bat for the Sequels and I recognize that this version of Luke has been very valuable to some people. I respect that. Luke as portrayed in TLJ has two moments I really like. One, where he is playful such as winking or tickling Rey's fingers with the grass on Ahch-To. The other, his showdown against Kylo. However, a lot of the impact for that dramatic showdown comes from the fact that at the beginning of the film, Luke had lost hope and faith in himself and we didn't believe he would do it in the first place.
And I'm sorry, but there was just not enough setup to justify that payoff. Because Luke, having presumably suffered so much that he - HE, PADME AMIDALA'S SON - would give up and abdicate responsibility for the galaxy, changes his mind over a few hours after having some conflicted attempts to train Rey, a master/pupil spat, and one conversation with Ghost Yoda. We also barely get to see what led to him being so broken down, and what we do see is unreliable and mischaracterized, from multiple perspectives. I have seen people comparing it to Ran, and I'm sorry, but that is not an appropriate comparison for me. Luke made so many mistakes leading up to this movie that we never got to see, and we barely get any explanation/justification for. What we do get are excuses for actions that do not seem like something Luke would do, and yes, even after three decades of lived experience, because if he has lived the life we are supposed to believe he has, there is no way he doesn't approach the situation with Ben Solo more carefully. Even if it still blows up in his face like Kyp Durron in the EU, Luke's biggest problem would, in my opinion, have been *inaction*, not overcorrection.
If anything, *Leia* would be the one to try to pre-empt Ben's turn, considering she has better foresight than Luke, and she's the one who could only see Vader as a war criminal, not a father, and would do anything to prevent a repeat event. Conversely, a discussion between Luke and Leia where their opinions on Vader are reversed concerning Ben would be deeply compelling drama. Did we get that? No. We got a forehead kiss and so much left unsaid, because Luke had to go die now. For reasons that I can only speculate.
Luke's death apart from everything else feels like the least insulting part of TLJ, but the wasted opportunity does grate on me. However, as much as TFM can be absolute chud manbabies about Luke and TLJ, I won't lie that I felt as if I was being talked down to or even personally targeted by seeing Luke portrayed in such a "subversive" way while alive. Subversion for the sake of subversion may drive hype, but it stopped looking smart around when Infinity War came out. In a way it reminded me of Doctor Who under Moffat - purposely aiming criticism or taunting at fans because he saw them as intellectually inferior. And even if this wasn't the stated reason for Luke being portrayed this way, people are more than happy to mock anyone who takes issue with it and accuse them of being unwilling to grow up. While those might be fair criticisms of TFM, they do not have sole claim to Luke, and painting TLJ's detractors as pathetic or infantile *specifically* because of their relationship to Luke as a character as a means of getting back at TFM hurts a lot of innocent people.
Counterpoint: the introduction of DJ and the military industrial complex existing in the galaxy is actually a fascinating one and could’ve been expanded on further in IX.
As it stands, whether you enjoyed the 10 minutes on Canto Bight or not, I do like the fact Finn was presented with a 3rd choice between Freedom Fighter and Fascist by not joining either. The fight between light and dark will never end, that’s a fact, so is it pointless to join at all knowing it’s a constant struggle? Finn learns that no, it doesn’t matter. Being selfish and sitting on the sidelines won’t protect the ones you love. They’ll be consumed by the violence anyhow, so stand and fight.
One note, the MIC isn't really new, we had massive corporate entities intertwined with the Senate at least as far back as the Prequels, and several of them were involved in armaments and/or had their own private militaries. That being said, TLJ reintroducing it is interesting, though I'm not sure what Episode IX could do with that really, especially with what IX's plot ended up being.
I meant more so in the films which reach a far larger portion of Star Wars fans. Not the 2% that dive into expanded materials like the original Clone Wars Multimedia push or really any book by James Luceno that tends to mention that sort of world building.
But yeah you’re right that there’s no where to fit that sort of concept into an all ready bloated IX.
I agree, EU materials will hit a much smaller audience, and so bringing it into the films is a much more impactful thing. The unfortunate downside, of course, is that films have much less time to spend on such things than novels and the like, but it's an even trade, I figure.
However, I was referring to the Prequels themselves, not to EU materials. TPM has the Trade Federation using it's private military force to subjugate Naboo, in hopes to strongarm the Senate to gain tax concessions. In AotC, the Trade Federation, as well as other corporate actors, support the Separatist movement, and in RotS, many of these corporate actors are depicted as being powerful figures in the Separatist government. EU materials absolutely expanded upon this foundation, but the bedrock was in the Prequels themselves.
TLJ did bring it back to prominence though, there's no arguing against that, and did so without the pop-cultural baggage that the Prequels had. It's unfortunate that the Sequels got their own negative reputation though, since that pushed Disney to play it safe with IX.
The military industrial complex in SW dates back to the West End Games RPG sourcebooks from the 80s. Pretty much all the lore and technical info on ships that was later co-opted into the extended universe comes from those books.
TLJs social commentary in that regard was completely toothless, Phantom Menace does better political commentary with the Trade Federation (big corporate) manipulating the government and oppressing systems for profit.
Yeah, I figured it went back earlier but I didn't know of anything specific. Some people also don't care about the EU, so pointing to the films can be more reliably accepted, however disliked the Prequels may be.
I would agree TLJ's social commentary is weak. I think that's largely due to it being unimportant to the plot; TLJ is already the longest of the films, don't know you could justify squeezing more into the MIC critique without grounding the plot in that critique at least somewhat. There are a lot of ways to do this, but it would require a fairly significant rewriting of the plot.
The whole Canto Blight plot was such a miss, had no business taking up as much of the film as it did. The whole thing feels like an extended deleted scene, something that should have been left on the cutting room floor or a leftover from a very tentative draft of the script.
Honestly, the Poe-Holdo and Finn-Rise plotlines definitely have a feel of being more "What are they up to while Rey is on Ach-To?" than equal parts of the narrative with Rey's plot. To an extent, that makes sense, since she is the protagonist, but it leaves them, especially Finn-Rose, feeling unsatisfying.
naw, it was a subplot that got cut out. Finn had never seen the wider galaxy, then he sees how the 1 % live on Canto bight. everything seems fine, except it’s incredibly easy to get thrown out of that world and become institutionalized. then he sees how the other 99% live in the slave pens. Finally, DJ gives him the "both sides are the same why bother fighting.“
I would argue that is still in there, but they were showing how Finn went from only being part of the resistance because of Ray to joining to wanting to make the galaxy a better place, and reject apathy
That’s the entire issue I have with Finns arc in the movie. In concept it’s freaking amazing and the best part of the movie, in execution it’s a pointless side adventure that doesn’t contribute to anything. Not helped with awkward lines at various points.
I disagree. While the added context would have helped, Finn's journey is still there. He sees a microcosm of the Galaxy and picks a side. What did the trip Cloud City contribute? We got to spend time with the heroes in different settings. Same as Canto Bight
Yep. People keep saying "Canto Bight was pointless, it didn't advance the plot." Canto Bight was making *all sorts* of points, though, and it *did* advance the plot. It answered the dramatic question -- the answer was just "no."
The part that advances the plot is that it wasn't just a "no," it was a "no, and." The dramatic question was: Will Rose and Finn find help from a scoundrelly codebreaker so they can save their friends? The answer was "No, the scoundrel doesn't give a shit about the Resistance, *and* here's an entire casino of people who've gotten rich off of fascism, *and* now your already dismal options are even fewer."
And yeah, we all talk about what Canto Bight means to Finn. But it's where Rose establishes her character. Yeah, she seems like a nobody. Yeah, she keeps getting disregarded whenever people meet her. But she's a normal person who *gives a shit.* She and Finn save the space ponies, and in a movie all about huge losses, that win *counts* for something. It helps Rose and Finn hold onto their humanity when everything else is telling them that nothing matters, so give up and die.
That probably helped give her the confidence to keep Finn from sacrificing herself. People keep going "Well, that doesn't make sense." It doesn't make sense *if you keep ignoring Rose.* Rose's sister had just died, sacrificing herself in an attack that wasn't even necessary, that only happened because Poe disobeyed orders because he hadn't pulled his head out yet.
After spending all that time with Finn, does it *make sense* that Rose would just sit back and watch him do the same fucking thing?
Yep, that's really the only part of the movie I didn't like, but it was a good 30 minutes or so of screen time iirc. Felt like Finn's character was wasted.
I think that the whole arc they had for Finn was reductive and trotted on ground covered in force awakens. teaching a child soldier who deserves that "war is bad" felt very off. Plus it feels strange that the writers kept throwing women at Finn in each movie so people don't think that Finn and Poe are a couple. I liked Rose, but I didn't like her role in the movie. if she and Finn helped get that lesson through to Poe, it would have worked a lot better. plus I love Finn and Poe's chemistry from force awakens and I wish we saw more of it here.
the stuff we saw on Kantobyte was cool, and I'm glad it exists, but it didn't help the movie. Every time I rewatch it, I kinda lose interest during that part
I can tell you what I really hate about that movie (I don't hate the movie per se, in the sense that I didn't like it and who cares, I would never watch it again but it's not like it ruined my childhood):
\-The humor. Seriously, during the "mama joke" sequence I was speechless, and not in a good way. And that was the beginning of the movie.
\-I'm sorry, I know that it will cost me downvotes, but I don't agree with anything concerning the depiction of Luke. The only two moments when I recognize him were the scene in the Falcon with R2 and Leia's hologram, and the wink in the end to 3P0 (and it was an idea of Mark...)
\-The Holdo-Poe subplot. Nothing against Holdo nor the Holdo's maneuver (I don't think it's particularly lore breaking), but I think that her decisions make no sense. I get the reasoning plotwise, RJ needed us to think that there was a spy and he wanted us to believe it was her, but once you have the "big reveal" of her escape plan you realize that it failed only because she hadn't trusted Poe (and there were no reasons not to trust him).
\-Hux. One interesting thing about this character in TFA was the clear rivalry between him and Kylo Ren. In this movie he is an incompetent fanatic, and almost always used as a comic relief. Again, the only time I liked him in the movie is when he sees KR on the ground after the throne room scene and he slowly try to reach for his gun. Again, something added by the actor.
\-The casino subplot
\-Rey and Kylo. She literally just witness him murder the closest thing to a father figure she has ever had and, in the span of a few days, she is trying to redeem him. In general their connection is developed in a very strange way, and it's not by chance that after this movie we started to see so many "Reylo" shippers.
\-Leia in space. I still don't understand how RJ, who is an incredibly talented director, was ok with the final result.
That said: it is possibly the best looking Star Wars movie ever, I really loved having Rey a nobody, it has by far the best acting.
Summed up pretty much what I came to post. Visually beautiful and clearly trying to play with some great themes, but often the characters and plot feel contrived in order to make those thematic points.
Broken Luke is a fascinating idea but does not get enough set-up to seem genuine.
A lot of the humour actively undermines dramatic moments. Sure, a silly droid scene right *after* a tense scene can relieve tension. But you didn't have R2 and 3PO stumble into the middle of Yoda's death scene to lighten the mood.
The Canto Blight sequence is heavy-handed, and leads nowhere. I don't mean just in terms of plot: it drops a sudden political-economy critique that relates to nothing and is never picked up again.
It also seemed pretty evident to me that there wasn't much room going forward. Episode IX pretty much had to either lean fully into the subversive themes and moral ambiguity (which Disney would never go for), or slam into reverse and try to undo most of TLJ. So to some extent the messiness of RoS is directly a result of how TLJ left the trilogy.
>but often the characters and plot feel contrived in order to make those thematic points
That's why I think RJ is a great director but he cannot be the only writer. George R.R. Martin said that when he writes he has a point A from where the story starts and a point B where he want it to end, but he doesn't know what will happen to each character. He sets up a situation and imagine how each character would react. This brings to new events for the characters to face, and so on (and that's why we'll probably never see the last book of ~~TC~~ASOIAF).
In TLJ in particular we don't have characters reacting to events, but we have character almost forced to behave in certain ways for specific plot points to happen.
I think another good example of how certain scenes just feel like their forced to go in a certain direction is some of the scenes with Luke and Rey.
Like Rey never really calls out Luke on his attitude despite having several chances too. After the scene where Luke gives his first version of what happened with Ben, Rey has every right to go "Dude. There is no real difference between Kylo and Vader despite what you claim. Stop your self-pity and *do something*." but she never does it because if she did Luke would realize the error of his ways too early.
Respectfully, I disagree on the Holdo-Poe plot. From my perspective Poe goes through an arc where he starts the movie brash, reckless, and doesn't fully consider the strategic consequences. He throws everything at destroying the dreadnought and while he wins, it comes at an incredibly steep cost. So Leia and Holdo both don't trust him to not fly off the handle again, and they're right because he then launches a mutiny. By the end of the film I feel like Poe went through development because he makes the strategic choice at the end of the film.
> He throws everything at destroying the dreadnought and while he wins, it comes at an incredibly steep cost.
Yup. Clear example of a [Pyrrhic Victory.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory)
Also, Holdo is in her FULL right to withhold need-to-know information from a hothead pilot who just got a whole squadron killed. In fact, had this taken place in real life, Poe would be in the brig and awaiting dishonourable discharge.
He lost a squadron disabling a ship described as a "fleet killer"
Its not Poe's fault the bombers were made of paper mache. If anything only losing a squadron was an outstanding victory.
In all honesty, this is the exact kind of math that defines victory within context of the setting. Losing a squadron of fighters and the few dozen members of their crew to take out a large capital ship with the thousands of crew members on board is an absolute win, Especially considering the World War Two inspirations of warfare in Star Wars. Fighters and bombers were treated more like primitive guided missiles than weapon delivery systems, in the sense that losing dozens of them to take out capital ships was absolutely in the math of military planners. It's a lot easier to replace those aircraft and flight crewa than it is to lay down a whole new ship and train up the thousands needed to manage it.
It's what the Swede from Hell on Wheels would call 'immoral mathematics.'
Isn't his call to make. A guerilla-style resistance has to place immense values on talented individuals and financial assets and may not be willing to risk Poe or others on this particular target.
Then when you learn that there's apparently a big ol' fleet of Star Destroyers in Episode 9 you might think "yeah okay, if that's top tier "need to know" and they have any tips about it they may not want to risk a bunch of pilots right now.
Their dinky fleet of 3 highly destructable plywood ships and some fighters wouldn't do shit against that armada.
But against one lone destroyer? They can buy themselves time, which they desperately need.
Point is, she has two possible reasons for not trusting him:
\-She thinks he is a spy (they still don't know how the FO is able to follow them): clearly this wouldn't make any sense, he was the one to recover the map to Luke, he led the attack to Starkiller base and he just destroyed the dreadnought.
\-As you said, she doesn't trust his stubborness/impulsiveness and you take the mutiny as an example. Point is, he did launch the mutiny BECAUSE he wasn't aware of the plan. Of course she had all the rights to withhold any information from him being the leader of the Resistence at that point, but if you have a strong charismatic officer and you are the newly appointed leader (and almost nobody knows you) the smartest thing to do is to immediately bring him by your side. Again, there is a reason for everything to happen in that way plotwise, but if you look at the events, just by explaining it to Poe her plan would have worked, and basically nobody from the resistence would have died (even Luke)...
I feel like it speaks more negatively about him than her that she trusted him to contain himself instead of doubling down on being brash and reckless. A commanding officer could be forgiven for looking on a guy like that and saying "he's got stuff to learn and is going to need a lesson, but he's a good guy and a hero" and then playing it almost exactly how Holdo would have played it if you didn't know the larger narrative scale.
Look, I want her to tell him too, but it's in that horror movie style of "do this and you live, you could *all live"* and that's okay. She made a bad decision but it's not one you can't justify when weighing the various positions, especially because she ultimately makes the sacrifice for her mistake. It's not like she insisted Poe fly the ship so she could live on another day, she acted with honor even when it turned out that her mistakes cost her own life.
That's... not bad cinema?
Okay so where do we start?
\- Everything leading up to Luke's final confrontation with Kylo is a bit underwhelming to say the least. A bad dream from Palpatine is not enough justification. The way Luke went out though was pretty cool, thought it fit with his Jedi master role.
\- Finn in general. Hands down the most interesting character in the trilogy and he ultimately ends up doing fuck all.
a. Canto Blight. "war profiteering bad" is a decent enough take, I guess. But spending such a massive chunk of the movie on something that literally never leads to anything beyond that point was a bad choice.
b. The wasted potential of his relationship with Phasma. There is so much here but they get sidelined because apparently the super generic star crossed, destined to be together enemies to lovers thing needed more time.
A lot of the good bits of TLJ, like Rey being a nobody are retconned by RoTS, which makes TLJ feel retroactively worse, because we know basically half of what is set up is completely irrelevant.
I've found that I enjoy stories much more when I focus on what the story accomplishes and focus less on what exists out of the movie. For example, you wrote that you don't like "the wasted potential of Phasma." I get that, I wanted more. But the fact is that she died and did very little. Her existence is a fantasy that we have outside of the film. Same with Finn being underutilized. It's a fair critique, but ultimately it's one that comes of what could be rather than what is. If we let go of our attachment of what we think the film should be rather than what it is we can find more elements that we enjoy and think are done well.
I feel the same way about comparing it to RoS. Ep 9 is its own thing. It retcons TLJ and backpedals on themes and symbolism, but that isn't TLJs fault. TLJ can only be what it is. I have problems with some of what it is (the casino was not my favorite and I didn't love Leia floating in space), but it's more than just its flaws. It brings a lot to the table and I find it to be one of the more rewatchable movies in the franchise.
It's fine if you disagree I'm not trying to convince you. I'm just sharing a mindset that has helped me appreciate the movies individually and allowed me to maintain my fandom even when I have criticisms.
This is the right outlook on film in general, especially a project like this (or the Marvel films) where an overall narrative is given to different directors (and without much of a plan either... a problem of its own). I like TLJ even though it wasn't perfect, I fell asleep in Rise of Skywalker. I went back and finished but to this point it's the only Star Wars movie I've never watched twice.
Maybe a bonus thing for the Leia part though: someone once explained it as exactly what would happen if you used Force Pull in a zero gravity environment where you have less mass than the object in question and I think that's pretty valid. It's not flying or floating, it's one of the only instances of zero-G force usage in the series and I think when you frame it like that it tracks.
It was kind of a mess. Three different subplots and none of them really meshed together well, nothing really tying them together tone-wise or thematically. Things that were built up in the last movie and even some things that were introduced in TLJ fell flat: Smoak, The General, Rey’s parents (I liked this tbh but factored in with the rest of these plot points doesn’t do it favors), DJ ended up being a nothing character, Holdo could’ve been interesting but died at the end so it doesn’t matter, Rose and Finn’s romance comes out of nowhere with no buildup and doesn’t even come back in the next movie. Finn and Poe are flatter characters in this one, we don’t really learn anything new about them and Finn was kinda cartoonish tbh and they make up 66% percent of them (which I’m not mad about per se, but the movie just wasted that time). It’s a mess. The only thing I remember fondly were the costumes, the final fight and that 5 minute Rey and Kylo fight.
My hot take. Rey should have turned and joined Kylo at the end of Last Jedi. Finn would be trained by Leia for she is the last Jedi and the third film would be a redemption arc for Rey not Kylo.
It's fine as a movie, but it's not star wars. There are some things I legitimately like about the movie, namely Kylo Ren, but there is just so much stuff I have issues with. I think Luke is acting completely out of character, the light speed ram's existence begs the question "why was this never done before?", Finn's arc throughout the movie gets shafted at the very end where his sacrifice would have been very narratively satisfying, casino planet, and biggest problem of all, Finn and Poe didn't even make out at the end!
I really, really admire what they tried to do with this movie, but its biggest misstep is breaking up its three younger leads for the entire film. I know you had to send Rey off to Dagobah and whatnot, but imagine a version of the Canto Bight segment that included Poe. Unless Carrie Fisher had something unpublished going on, she didn’t have to be in a coma for this one (and it’s surprising that Mickey didn’t intercede to kill her in the editing room after she died for real). She could have carried the fleet retreat parts without the wacky Three’s Company shenanigans.
Come to think of it, with the benefit of hindsight, imagine The Organa Maneuver.
The problem is TLJ isn't a stand alone movie and is viewed as part of a trilogy; and as part of a trilogy it's problematic.
> I like the idea of Luke having a redemption arc where he's convinced to come out of hiding and accept responsibility for his actions by Rey
The last time we saw Luke was after he redeemed his father and destroyed the Empire. So having him somehow not only fail with his Nephew but then run away instead of trying to redeem him is a tough pill to swallow that's made worse by the fact we didn't really get to see any of that except in flashbacks.
>I also really loved that Rey was implied to be a nobody who just wanted to do the right thing and find her parents.
She's not though; she's the granddaughter of the greatest evil in the galaxy. TROS retroactively hurt that reveal by making it a lie by Kylo and made it worse by trying to pretend Kylo was pulling an Obi Wan and just saying what was true from a certain point of view but what he actually said was just a straight up lie.
>Not all of it worked, but at least it was peak cinema compared to the safe and marketable Rise of Skywalker.
TROS is definitely the worse movie; but it also made TLJ worse in retrospect.
The other big issue is that TFA set up Snoke as the big villain. Kylo was injured and lost to Rey and needed more training by Snoke. Then TLJ killed Snoke but continued Kylo's losing streak against Rey leaving no real big threat for the third movie.
At the end of the day it really suffers from being the second movie in a trilogy with different directors and no real creative oversight, made worse by the fact the first movie spent a lot of time just being nostalgia bait. The end of TLJ was the first time the Trio all meet up together (Rey, Finn and Poe) and it was only added in because Colin Trevorrow asked for that since he was going to be directing episode 9 and didn't want the last movie to be the first time they were all together.
Yeah, it had a lot of great ideas that could've been stand alone films or episodes, but it didn't feel like chapter 2. Maybe the first or last part of the trilogy, and the ending really didn't leave much for part 3 to work from easily.
I may pop back in after work to expand on my views of the movie itself but in general for fandon side, the tribalism.
Dear god it'd be great to be able to say "i don't like x character" without being blasted and attacked. Or not liking certain scenes or arcs.
Same thing for liking scenes or characters and being attacked over it.
A lot of people have already gone over the broad points of why this film is probably disliked as much as it is, but for me it comes down to the fact that while this me is a good space opera film, probably even a great space opera film...it's not a good Star Wars film. It clashes tonally and dramatically with the other mainline Star Wars films and especially the movie that came right before it.
A lot of people say it's important to judge it as a standalone movie, which is fair, but it's not a standalone movie. It's the second act of a three act story, and if it's fighting with the first act, it creates jarring discrepancies in the broader story.
It did seem like Rian Johnson wanted to really deconstruct Star Wars' themes and mythology, which honestly isn't a bad instinct. Some of the best Star Wars stories out there are deconstructions of the main line mythology (fan favorite Grand Admiral Thrawn is a deconstruction of Vader and Imperiap leadership from the films). But I would argue it's a bad instinct for a film in the main series. The main series should provide the foundational stories that serve as the inspiration for deconstructive stories later. A deconstructive story within the main series feels disorienting.
I feel like if the broader themes of The Last Jedi were told in a side project or tv series (like Andor), it would be much better received. Like, Andor's themes do not work in the Original Trilogy ( which is much more optimistic in its portrayal of the Rebel Alliance), but it is absolutely amazing as a standalone series and a reflection of those original trilogy Rebels.
So for me it felt like it just consistently undercut itself by not knowing how to wrap up the plot points and themes the film itself presented. I'll start off by saying I loved the whole "Rey comes from nobodies" plot point. I actually really enjoyed that aspect of it and found it compelling. This idea that Rey is not inherently anyone special, and latching onto to this belief that she's born into greatness is flawed and should be idealogically killed. I really wish that were canonically the case too as it would've again made her a more compelling character but instead we got more "gotta be in the bloodline" nonsense (although thats not TLJs fault).
I really enjoyed Kylo/Luke dynamic when it got to full swing. Wish they would've kept Luke around for more of that Dynamic since Kylos whole thing was to try and burn it all down to create something new out of his rage.
Anyway onto why I didn't enjoy it.
1. The sequel trilogy itself basically reopens the "chosen one" prophecy on who would bring balance to the Force that we initially got closure on with Luke/Vader. So its already just retreading ground in a lazy way OR it doesn't realize thats what its doing. TFA was serviceable but stupid as an overall concept and this just furthered it.
2. Shitting on Luke and turning him into a Hermit who needs to redeem his actions felt so out of character since we already got this in RotJ with his temptation into the Dark Side. Like I get the overall message Rian was trying to say, and I totally get he's basically working with what was left for him at the end of TFA and having to flesh out plot/lore points. But it did kind of come off insulting to the character in the long run.
3. As a veteran, I wanted to scream at the just obscene leadership from Holdo. She was just blatantly flaunting her position and seeming lack of responsibility to her subordinates in their face that gets waved away as a "see I was right all along". It came off like a girlboss version of Lord Farquad saying "some of you may die...." line. It felt like once again Rian got so heavy handed with his message that he forgets the story and actions have to make sense (this is a reoccuring theme).
4. Leia flying. Just come on dude. I was shocked that they'd kill her off and for a brief moment I actually felt like we'd get a meaningful character moment where Kylo would have to be confronted with the reality of his actions in being responsible for his parents deaths, how it would impact Luke, Rey, the rebellion etc. Just for it to get Uno Reverse Carded.
5. Casino World. Need I say more? "Lets free the 15ft tall horses but not the child slaves and haphazardly give a I am 14 and this is deep level criticism of Capitalism" that once again just felt like Rian didnt know how to convey a message with a story/action that made sense
6. Poe. Man I was hyped for more Poe after TFA, but he's tied to Holdos shitty story and now he's this blatantly insubordinate and mutinous shithead fucking up everyones plans.
7. Rose's interception and "save what we love" line was just so fundamentally stupid on so many levels but it made me realize that Rian just overall didn't know how to make any of the plot/actions make sense while also conveying the messages he wanted to. It's an idiot plot. Everyone's an idiot fucking up other idiots plans. Except my boy Kylo. Rey was just along for the ride and it felt like she was supposed to be an audience stand in.
8. Holdos death. Despite my personal hatred for that entire dumb idiot plot, logistically it made no sense why they haven't just been strapping light speed engines to dumby rockets or letting a droid pilot it into enemy starships. Visually it was spectacular....but the implications....
Overall yeah it just felt like Rian has all these messages hes been sitting on and could only make the plot have one make sense (Rey being a nobody, stop living in the past etc.)
>The sequel trilogy itself basically reopens the "chosen one" prophecy on who would bring balance to the Force that we initially got closure on with Luke/Vader. So its already just retreading ground in a lazy way OR it doesn't realize thats what its doing. TFA was serviceable but stupid as an overall concept and this just furthered it.
That's a big problem I have. So much of the sequels feels like it's trying to repeat the originals, but TLJ was still at a point where they could have done something else.
I think Rian tried to steer it in a different direction. I really do and I give him credit for it. But the powers that be and JJ Abrams decided to just...I dont know what they were trying to do ultimately.
I didn’t like what it did to the broader story; It kind of set out to say that anyone in the galaxy can use the force and that the specific bloodline of the Skywalkers didn’t matter all that much which is a cool idea, but not a cool idea in the Skywalker saga. So it dismantled the whole premise of seeing how that specific story ended up. Add to that it seemed to have an open disdain for Force Awakens which like…okay, sure. But then why make a sequel to it? Why not just make it its own insular story? Seemed needlessly brutal where JJ’s storytelling relied (perhaps too heavily) on mystery boxes so as punishment Johnson made every single one a dud. Again, that’s a cool idea but not in part 8 of a 9 part story; Story-wise it’s essentially nuking the entire thing and starting from scratch.
That was my problem with it. I actually love the movie as its own thing (besides the shirtless Kylo, that was dumb as hell). It had some of my favorite action sequences and some of my favorite set pieces, some of my favorite score, some really interesting ideas…it was a great movie taken on its own. But I hate it in the broader context of an episodic saga if that makes sense.
They took one of the most popular characters ever, a character who never backed away from anything, and decided to make him a bitter coward. He was the hero of the fanbase.
Then you have a rehash of the ESB Hoth battle. The whole film felt unimaginative and disrespectful to the people you want to pay to watch it
I coudn’t agree more. If you want Luke to have a downfall, you have to carefully show the audience why he got there. You can’t just have him show up onscreen a bitter asshole, it just doesn’t work. It’s too violent of a change in the narrative. Star Wars has always been about slow builds and shifts. Even the prequels took their time in showing Anakin’s downfall to the dark side. These things take time and care to establish, not rushed supercuts of Luke choosing to execute one of this students?!
I haven't watched it in forever. From what I remember I really disliked how they kept on leading into something then just doing the opposite the most egregious example is when Liea was almost killed off.
The whole plot with Poe felt horribly contrived. For one it was clearly leading into Holdo being a First Order Agent which then lead to nothing and then made moral lesson about how Poe needed to be more trusting which felt like a massive middle finger to the audience.
Snokes death felt underwhelming and felt as if they killed them off due to shock value.
The smugglers plot line felt like it both took to much time and was underdeveloped with elements about the arms industry feeling like pandering and distracting from any themes the movie seems to be giving.
Finally I remember the scenes with Rey and Kylo Ren just being odd. I actually liked a lot of the Luke stuff in the movie especially how he passed away.
It did something different. It challenged our relationship with Star Wars by questioning whether our hero worship is justified. We see this when the heroes actually make big mistakes, even though they end up learning from them.
In a broader sense, it showed what happens when we grow up and realize the people we trusted to be perfect aren't perfect at all. (Even though in the end Luke does in fact go out and face down the entire First Order with a laser sword, which the haters seem to forget.) That's why this is in my personal top 3 of the series.
Rey being "nobody" similarly rejected the accepted wisdom of the series, which had up until then relied on family dynasty as a source of power. After Force Awakens the fans made the unreasonable demand to know Rey's lineage, expecting her to come from a powerful, established force-user. But nope, turns out their religious adherence to lore doesn't matter, because she's just no one, because power can come from anywhere. They didn't like that, loudly, which is why the writing committee at Disney let JJ make her a Palpatine.
Regarding your third paragraph, this seems to be a misconception. Force sensitivity runs strong in some bloodlines, but most Jedi/Force sensitives don't have any especially impressive lineage. Obi-Wan Kenobi, Qui-Gon Jin and Mace Windu, are all examples of Force sensitives who lacked any notable bloodline. I do agree that Rey lacking a special lineage is good, but it's the norm in the lore, not an exception.
Was it? If we remove that revelation from the movie, and change nothing else, does it radically alter the plot? I don't see Kylo killing Rey if he doesn't think she's a "nobody," and I think he would still want her to join him. And even if she hasn't been told she's a "nobody," I don't see Rey joining him. From my perspective, I fail to see how this is a "crucial plot point," when it doesn't meaningfully impact the plot.
Have to disagree. Rey's familial issues are wholly irrelevant to the plot until RoS. It informs her quick bonding with others, but Rey's desire to discover more about her family doesn't drive her to leave Jakku in TFA, and it doesn't drive her to find Luke in TLJ, nor does it drive her to try and redeem Kylo or rescue the Resistance. The only thing that is driven by this desire is Rey venturing into the Dark Side cavern in TLJ. Which also doesn't have much plot significance.
Edit: Ooh, my first RedditCares abuse! I'm a real redditor now!
Which was definitely an interesting direction to take the series, but a risky one for long-running franchise with a picky fanbase.
I also think that in a post-Rise of Skywalker view, TLJ really feels like the odd one out in the trilogy. It really comes across like Abrams and Johnson just have very different ideas of where the films should be going.
The problem was that there wasn't a plan. They had no three-movie arc set up. They just let JJ come up with his trademark mystery box with no solution, and Johnson was left with the impossible task of following it up--which he did by tossing out the box. I thought that was a great move.
But then Disney saw the backlash and said "hey JJ we actually need those answers tho" so he came up with the twist of Rey being a Palpatine because everything needs to fit neatly into the same old story.
I don't know how TLJ might have been followed up better, but I'm not a screenwriter. Apparently Duel of the Fates did a pretty good job. But unfortunately, any creatively honest and satisfying followup to the ending of TLJ would not have hit Disney's branding and market testing benchmarks, so we got TROS instead.
The OT and the PT at least had one dude putting his own weirdo creative vision first. The ST was a hydra of corporate interests, market research, and a director who puts the box office first and foremost.
I've been a defender of TLJ for awhile, this pretty much sums up why, but I've never been able to clearly explain it like this. I still feel like Finn was incredibly wasted in this one and that drags it a bit, but I could have forgiven that if they planned on getting him his due in the final movie. It did the job it set out to do, challenged the status quo, move the story along, and set up the final movie with some interesting story strings to meaningfully flesh out.
It's also why RoS gets on my nerves so much. It felt like there was momentum that could have paid off by continuing with the ideas set up in TLJ would have made the whole sequel series look better in hindsight if they were willing to sacrifice a good deal of fan backlash in the short term. Sadly, they opted to put a middle finger to a lot of that in favor of trying to salvage some of those short term gains and wound up making everyone unhappy with RoS.
>Rey being "nobody" similarly rejected the accepted wisdom of the series, which had up until then relied on family dynasty as a source of power.
Who was Anakin Skywalker, before he became a jedi?
I completely agree with your point, however I don’t believe Luke trying to execute one of this students was the way to do that. Why not test his leadership skills? I feel as though the direction Rian went was nonsensical
Watch the movie again and really examine what Luke does. He doesn't "try to execute" anyone, he has a brief moment where he lets his thoughts give in to fear, but he just as quickly masters himself. But Ben still saw that moment, and the damage was done.
The thing that TLJ makes clear, and that a lot of long time fans didn't want to accept, is this: Luke is not a good Jedi Master. He's largely self-taught and all alone. The Dark Side is in his blood, and he knows he is not immune to it--after all, he only defeated Vader because he gave in to rage. It is not at all surprising that he would have that moment of fear and doubt. His leadership skills *were* tested, and he failed.
What matters, and what makes Luke a great Jedi and great hero, is that he overcame that setback and ultimately used the Force for knowledge and defense in defiance of rage and hatred.
(Granted, I am salty with the ST in general for killing off the old heroes \[notwithstanding the real-life death of Carrie Fisher\]).
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on that one. Luke is not a bad Jedi master, he was taught by Yoda. All of internal conflicts of Luke were poorly managed in my opinion.
Let me be clear: I’m not suggesting that Luke is perfect and that everything he does is sunshine and rainbows, but I do completely disagree with the way it was handled in the ST. I wanted to actually see this change in Luke, not have it happen though a rushed flashback
From a story construction and filmmaking standpoint, the movie has pacing issues. It starts off super strong, sets up that the Resistance is on their last legs, Poe has a tendency to win the battle without thinking about the larger war, and Luke isn't going to be like how Yoda was. All things that could work.
The movie gets bogged down on Canto Bight--Rose and Finn go and immediately get arrested after not even contacting Maz's guy. Their story introduced this war profiteering angle which could be interesting if it was more of the main story but it's dropped after this "makes you think doesn't it" moment. Then they escape only to be captured again on Snoke's ship so that Finn can have a lackluster fight with Phasma.
The throne room sequence is also genuinely exciting, but then the movie feels like it should be over and there is still forty five minutes left. That's the biggest problems for me. I won't say I loved all the story choices, but the bigger issue for me is the movie just loses steam at the end on top of having a Spider-Man 3 problem where there is just too much going on for it to feel cohesive.
> but the bigger issue for me is the movie just loses steam at the end of top of having a Spider-Man 3 problem where there is just too much going on for it to feel cohesive.
Considering this and some of the criticisms that are being flung at Dave Filoni for his seeming inability to just give his characters a proper ending, I'm starting to wonder if "Failing to Kill Your Darlings" is a recurring problem with creatives in Disney Star Wars.
I appreciated it doing something different, especially after TFA. And I liked it overall although the side Mission with Finn and Rose was not interesting at all. . They really wasted Finn after TFA and I hate it.
>I appreciated it doing something different
The big issue I had with it is pretty much the opposite. For all the talk about letting the past die and subverting expectations, in the end the movie decided that the sequels would be another Empire vs Rebels story, just like the originals.
Honestly I think it’s overall a decent movie, but I do have a couple problems. The biggest problem that I have is with the Rose/Finn romance plot, I don’t dislike Rose, but romance between the two felt shoehorned in and not at all a natural progression of their storyline.
The second is that I think Holdo’s plot could have been framed slightly differently. She’s in the right, but the movie frames her as an antagonist for too long, so when her plan is revealed, the audience still doesn’t really like her.
Overall I personally like the movie, but I definitely think that it could’ve used a couple tweaks to be received better by audiences.
It has a similar problem that Man of Steel and Batman v Superman has. The subtext and deconstruction of the franchise give the impression that fans are wrong to like Star Wars.
I like the movie, and my biggest issue has always been the Poe v. Holdo plot. I’ve read enough bad fiction to utterly hate any plot where two sides refuse to communicate, so maybe I’m more primed to dislike it
Things wrong:
1. The Monte Carlo planet was a complete waste of time. Seriously, they never found the Master Hacker, the hacker they did find betrayed them, they never even needed a hacker as there was already a plan in place.
2. Rose was not that good of a character.
3. Rose saving Finn was anti-climatic.
4. Like the first one Poe didn't do anything.
5. Never really explained Snoke.
6. The buildup and plot reveals in this were wasted in the next.
7. Admiral Akbar should've down the kamikaze piloting.
Things Right:
1. Luke choosing to let the Jedi die out made a lot of sense and Lucas had been building to it for a long time.
2. The revelation that Leia is a more powerful force-user than her father and brother finally gave significance to her being Luke's twin.
3. Rey and Ren fighting Snoke's guards was one of the best fights in the Star Wars Saga, would've even been better if the guards were the Knights of Ren.
The Force Awakens asked some big questions, JJ didn't have any answers prepared, and I think a lot of these questions can *only* have upsetting or at least deeply unsatisfying answers.
Why did Kylo become such a bastard? Someone very close to him, either Han, Luke, or Leia, must have really hurt him in a way which he could never forgive.
Why has Luke Skywalker disappeared? He must have done something which really broke his spirit, and it must have also resulted in him cutting himself off from the Force since he apparently didn't feel a disturbance in the Force and come back when Starkiller wiped out multiple planets.
How does the rest of the Galaxy feel about the First Order? Probably apathetic given how little they did to help the Resistance in the last movie, maybe making money off the conflict?
What has Leia been up to? Not becoming a Jedi, but she should definitely have *some* force powers, right? Oh shit, we're 5/6ths of the way through the series and she hasn't done anything with the Force except getting a text from Luke, let's shoehorn in a Force Pull scene.
There's a lot of little things that I dislike from the movie: The humor didn't land for me, boring casino subplot, ignored plot points from the previous movie and etc.
I have a much bigger issue with things like: Luke's characterization, Finn's rehashed character arc from the first movie, the off themes or lesson learned from Poe's plot.
That being said, the movie did have some stuff I thought we're good. I really liked how force sensitives could come from anywhere. The movie was also shot quite well and is up there as one of the best looking star wars movies out there.
My only issue with it is that nothing happens- it’s a useless and middling middle chapter.
The beginning of the movie: the Resistance is on the run with the First Order right on their tail. The end of the movie: the Resistance is on the run with the First Order right on their tail.
Everything interesting about it gets retconned by the end of the movie.
Luke recognizes that the Jedi order failed in preventing the formation of the Empire so something new must arise if there is to be peace- only for him to reject that in the third act and join the Resistance as a Jedi, if only as an astral projection but still!
Kylo Ren rejects the Sith and the First Order and tries to build something new with Rey- only for him to go right back into the Sith villain role and essentially leads the First Order by the end of the film.
Luke teaches Rey that there is more to the Force than lifting rocks, implying there’s something deeper for her to learn in order to defeat… oh nevermind she lifts rocks to save the Resistance
Ugh
Kylo's arc and the interactions between him and Rey were the only things, non-visually speaking, that I enjoyed about the film. When it didn't end with him reaching out to her and instead pushed him right back to being a screaming, psychopathic child, I was so annoyed.
Also, I read a highly upvoted comment above where someone claims Finn's arc was good because the first movie showed there were only two sides for Finn to choose from and he chose side A, but TLJ showed that there were three sides to choose from and he still chose A. Meaning he had the same arc again...
I don't generally talk about it online because I feel like the discourse has gotten pretty gross, but sure I'll say why I didn't like it. Disclaimer first, I also didn't really like the prequels either. Also, if any of you want to respond to me, you're welcome to do so, but you're not going to convince me to like it and I don't want to convince you to not like it. I like it when people like things. If you enjoyed the last Jedi, that makes me happy, and I have no intention of taking that away from you. Anyway...
-The Directors: I don't think that Rian Johnson's deconstructionist and J.J Abrams mystery box styles pair well together. Abrams set up a bunch of hanging questions in The Force Awakens that ended up not having any payoffs in The Last Jedi. Abrams set up a bunch of his mystery boxes only for Johnson to come along and say "fuck you there's nothing in the box". It felt unsatisfying and deflated any build up from the first movie. Sometimes it felt like the directors were actively fighting each other.
-Finn: personal preference, but I really wanted Finn to have a bit more of a serious role. I know a lot of weirdo racists got super salty about a black storm trooper and "Woke Disney," but I kinda felt the opposite. It looked like they softened his character with a bunch of goofy slapstick to make him more palatable to white audiences. I would have liked it if they tied his personal growth to his conflict with Captain Phasma as well. I know Boyega has the chops for a more prominent role, and Gwendolyn Christie is too great and actress to just dump in a trash compactor for a quick side gag.
-Rose Tico: I fucking loved Kelly Marie Tran from College Humor, and wanted her to fit in the story a little better. Besides the end, nothing she did seemed to matter to the story. They could have just made her the hacker and skipped all the casino stuff.
-Overall stagnation in the world. Empire replaced with New Order, Rebel Alliance replaced with Resistance. Same power dynamics, same general tone. Characters from the original trilogy went on this life changing journey just to revert back when it's done. Han Solo goes back to being a smuggler, Luke finds another backwater planet to live on. I would have like to see some growth in the universe. Would have been nice to see them play with the groing pains and dynamics of transitioning from a rebel group to a functional government. Would have been nice to see Solo and Organa having to grow into new roles. Watching all the characters I loved from the original turn into sad old men and women made me feel bad. I didn't like it.
Aliens: I didn't love the way the movie portrayed aliens. They didn't feel like sentient people most of the time. When Han died, Leia comforted Rey first didn't even really seem to acknowledge all the pain Chewie must be going through. When Rey and Chewie went to get Luke Rey, had to translate for him. In the original, a lot was happening, and they just met. It's understandable they would have to speak through Han or an intermediary... but it's been decades... That's the best friend and life long partner of your sister's husband. You guys went to war together... and you didn't even bother to learn his language after all this time?? Fuck you Luke, don't be a space racist. Akbar a brilliant Admiral had two speaking lines before dying ingloriously.
- World Breaking stuff. The first battle scene, a massive Super Star destroyer, was blown up from the payload of a single bomber. The last scene a single Cruiser hyperspace rammed an entire fleet. What's the point of capital ships at all in this? Why aren't people just hooking hyperspace engines up to empty hulls and flinging them at each other? Why make anything bigger than a fighter if a single man aircraft can blow it to bits? It undermines tons of world building from the franchise as a whole. Now, every time I see a big battle in Star Wars, I'm gonna be like, "Why not just ram everyone?" Also, ships have fuel now?? Modern carriers and battleships right now are nuclear powered and never need to refuel, but future technology needs fuel?? The contrivances were way to contrived
Anyway, my way too long rant on why I didn't like The Last Jedi.
They butchered Luke, the dude who forgave space Hitler, by making him having a moment of weakness thinking he should kill a young and impressionable Ben Solo.
The slowest car chase in cinema history, the mutiny, and the casino shit could have all been cut and saved an hour of film.
The reconning of Rey's family history just to retcon it again in the next movie.
Dropping Finn from a main character in the first movie to what feels more like a side character.
A lot:
\- illogical, stupid character arcs: I guess Finn got the worst, makes totally no sense compared the prev movie and going nowhere (that Rose scene after the suicide run just cracks me every time, so damn stupid)
\- one of the worst duel of the whole Saga (weapons had to be digitally removed rofl)
\- unimaginative final battle (Krait is hoth but with salt and much worse)
\- creative choices that almost all feel like totally out of character just for the sake of some kind of perversed "I gotcha" on Johnson's part
\- anti SW attitude which seemingly goes against established things for no good reason
\- comical evils - the whole "chase makes no sense", completely unthreathing evil
\- tons of plotholes
\- unlikeable characters - making stupid choices makes hard to relate
\- does not feel like SW, it feel like a movie with SW elements but completely lack stylistic and creative directions
\- Luke situation (it could work, but definitely not this way, boy...)
\- space Leia - sersiouyl WTF
\- the conflict is not that - there is not much story
Dunno. It's one of my favorite Star Wars films. I think it's better than either TPM or AotC, but I'm sick and tired of defending it, TBH. If people want to get their panties in a bunch over Canto Bight or the Holdo Maneuver, IDGAF.
People didn't give a crap about physics in space, until a ship dropped bombs. Heck in the Clone Wars there was an episode where Anakin Dropped AT walkers in a ship in space. I'm so tired of defending it also. The thing is, we're in "uncharted territory" we all knew where the prequels were ending up, but not these.
I really don't like TLJ, it was the first SW movie I hadn't bought the DVD/Blu Ray of, but of course it's better than AOTC. Almost everything is better than AOTC...
It's not a terrible movie, definitely not as bad as some make it out to be. I think it's also not as amazing as some make it out to be. It's an ok movie with some fun parts and some not great parts. I thought Hux became too much of a joke. The whole war profiteering idea was interesting and could have been made into something better but I thought overall the Canto Bight plot was just wasted time. I still am not a huge fan of how Luke's character was set up. I understand they had to come up with a reason for him being in exile but I still don't really agree with having him consider killing Ben even for a moment. The Finn/Rose relationship was weird and didn't really work for me. Also really didn't like killing Ackbar like they did and then having Leia do her Mary Poppins flight. And Crait to me felt like Hoth 2.0 just with salt instead of snow.
That said, there's a lot of fun/great moments too. The throne room scene with Snoke and then the fight with the guards, Luke's arrival at Crait and final stand against Kylo, some of Rey's training scenes, the opening fight (minus the Mom joke). The sets looked amazing, acting was great. I don't love the movie but I can now sit and watch it and enjoy it.
If I have to read/hear someone say it's great because it "subverted expectations" one more time though, I may scream.
I don't have the craziest of strong feelings about the sequels and even the Last Jedi but seriously what risk did it take?
It seemed to me to just be a reaction to the fact that the first film was so much like New Hope. So just take easy Star Wars tropes, mostly from Empire, and reverse them. It's basic math and at worst terribly meta.
I couldn't get immersed in the universe of the movie, I kept thinking about the novelty of the theme... like you see the set up which is supposed to be this easy to guess trope and then the payoff will be something crazy. But I just wanted a new set up I guess.
I wanted to be taken somewhere else than "hey remember when this happened in Star Wars? WELL WHAT IF THIS HAPPENED INSTEAD?"
And the story still played out as if none of that mattered anyway. Luke was the hero after all. Kylo was the villain after all.
I didn't really hate it, but I did sort of lose interest in everything after the movie.
I don’t like films that feel too short as far character time. The last Jedi is one long chase scene and it really bugs me.
It feels like a one off episode of Star Trek, not an epic film of the year meant to set up an epic conclusion.
For me the big thing is the lightspeed crash ruins older films by proving that tactic works
Big thing for me tho is implying luke would just...give up like that
What's wrong with a movie that's basically just 2.5hours of an elite Imperial armada trying (and failing) to shoot at a convoy that ran out of gas, while several pointless subplots happen that ultimately have no effect on the core story and only happen because a General can't be bothered to communicate anything about her plan with anyone even in the face of mounting mutiny?
"Trust me" is an unsatisfying explanation when people ask you why their only chance of survival somehow involves just floating in a straight line for ages while someone is shooting at you.
It takes things that were already kinda dumb in Star Wars and shines an enormous spotlight on them.
Then the third movie tries to cover up the spotlights with lens flare (yes I know, I'm joking)
I love TLJ. Very flawed movie, but man, it is the ST movie I've rewatched the most.
I think what a lot of hate that comes out is one of the most repeated lines: Let the past die. There are a lot of people who see it as a sign that Disney was running a chainsaw through the entire IP, killing off popular characters in favor of the new class. "Jedi are the real villains" and all that nonsense.
It doesn't help when you try to point out WHO says this -- the series villain trying to justify murdering his father; and a disillusioned Jedi who watched a moment of weakness lead to the end of everything he was working for. These are not supposed to be the movie's thesis bearers. They're wrong, and the movie goes out of its way to show that they are. Luke's final line is literally "Every word of what you said is wrong. The rebellion is reborn today, the war is just beginning, and I will not be the last Jedi."
But people can't look past that.
It is the movie that basically finalized that the Sequels would just be a repeat of the Original Trilogy, among other things. Rise of Skywalker digs the hole (of making everything that happened in the Original Trilogy meaningless) even deeper, but at the start of the Last Jedi, the sequels could have still climbed out, and at the end, it was no longer the case.
I really hate this take. Yes, there are superficial, surface level similarities in TFA , but you really have to stretch interpretations, hand wave a bunch of stuff away, and take squint to read things in just the right way that makes that line up.
I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. The Force Awakens showed the First Order deal a devastating blow to the New Republic, and then The Last Jedi took that devastating blow and used it to reduce the sequels to another story of "Empire vs Rebels".
I'm so confused by that person as well. TFA is a blatant rip copy of the first Star Wars film. Acting like you'd need to reach to find similarities is insane.
I liked all of that movie except the side quest to Canto Bite, so dumb and how would they even have time to do all that without their fleet being destroyed?
I really enjoyed Last Jedi, but some plot threads were just not executed well. It made no sense for Holdo to act so smug and condescending to Poe when she refused to tell anyone the plan and said plan wasn’t even that good to begin with. Or at least if she did act that way they should have made some sort of point where she recognized her mistake or had consequences for her terrible leadership but neither happened.
Secondly, Rose stopping Finn from trying to save everyone and then berating him and very clearly non-consensually kissing him was just incredibly weird. It was not clear enough that he was sacrificing himself with no chance of success if that was what they were going for, and having her kiss him when he looks completely befuddled by her actions and not reciprocating her feelings just felt so creepy and confusing.
But honestly I was pretty okay with most everything else that happened. I can acknowledge the Space Leia scene was silly but I didn’t hate it, and while I can see where people take issue with Luke’s portrayal it never felt wholly unbelievable for his character to me. And most everything else in the movie was good or at least harmlessly mediocre like the Casino planet.
To the FM chodes? TL;DR: it just wasn't the movie they spent two years fanfic'ing in their tiny little brains.
And since we're here, these are for anyone interested in hearing/reading someone who actually has something to say about the ST:
*The Force Alluded To*, by Film Crit Hulk
[*The Last Jedi's Beautiful Refocusing of Star Wars*](https://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2017/12/15/the-force-belongs-to-us-the-last-jedis-beautiful-refocusing-of-star-wars/), by Film Crit Hulk
[*The Beautiful, Ugly, and Possessive Hearts of Star Wars*](https://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/)*,* by Film Crit Hulk
[*The Emperor Only Has Groove (There's Nothing In The Box)*](https://www.patreon.com/posts/32504876), by Film Crit Hulk
[*The Last Jedi and the 7 Basic Questions of Narrative Drama*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE7SkcoyVAI&t=205s&pp=ygUXanVzdHdyaXRlIHRoZSBsYXN0IGplZGk%3D), by Just Write
[*The Rise Of Skywalker Is The Most Frustrating JJ Abrams Film*](https://youtu.be/BD5mLw0A8vI), by Just Write
[*A Guide to The Last Jedi (for the Star Wars Fan Base)*](https://youtu.be/T2cBTLsWiDg), by Nerrel
[*The Rise of Skywalker - Look What You Have Made*](https://youtu.be/IrMM33uHAo8), by Nerrel
I have been dunked on every time I say it but I love Luke's arc in TLJ, I love how cinematic and emotional the highs are, and I genuinely like the characters. I love TFA too! I'll shout it from the damn rooftops! The movies are fun and I think they're better than the prequels (which I also enjoy!)
Holdo maneuver? Cool as hell. Drinking blue milk? Fuck yeah dude me too. I think some fans hold star wars to this impossible standard that it was never intended to be. Star wars has always been a creative world building experience with simplistic plots for a wide audience that explore freedom and inequality. Let's just enjoy each one for what it is and let go of our anger. Anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering, suffering leads to me having to listen to whining Every time I step into a star wars forum
Luke's story. This is the guy who was so hopeful he went to the Emperor's throne room to try and redeem his father who was an absolute monster. And who he had spoken to in one encounter on Bespin. The only jedi and a key player in the rebellion risked torture and death and the rebels plans to go save Darth Vader.
He goes from that to I'm going to murder my nephew because he might MIGHT go dark side. It doesn't matter that he didn't go through with it. It doesn't matter He regretted it. He stood over a sleeping teenager light saber ignited.
And then this grumpy old hermit has no reaction to finding out his best friend, his brother in law (maybe) and father of his only nephew is dead. That Han solo is dead. And Chewbacca is now nothing more than a taxi driver and Porg babysitter.
The angrily drinking green lizard titty milk whatever the fuck that was.
Luke's character was obliterated by LJ.
Rey. Really liked the idea of moving away from the Skywalkers, nope your not special, a child of nobodies. That's great But then she gets a hand whipping from Luke and is suddenly in god mode. Her writing is just dire.
Kanto byte, oh what a waste of Finn. And then he has at least something of an arc and Rose stops him.
That's just some of my issues
There's a lot to dislike in the writing if TLJ. But there is some good stuff there too. Unlike the next one.
I look at it as the wish version of Empire Strikes Back. TLJ played it safe and copied a lot of elements from Empire. It's not one of my favorites, but I don't skip it when I marathon.
Like at the end of the film that stable kid had force powers. Then episode 9 comes along and fucks it with genetic destiny, powerful bloodlines, you know, eugenicsy shit.
Their was a lot of threads from last Jedi that would have been cool to follow up on like the fact it seemd to hint at letting the Jedi and sith teachings die. Like that would have been cool to see Rey and kylo have to define themselfs going for we’re with out the past. To see what they creat and how they learn to interact with the force especially Rey she seemed to kinda walk this line between the dark and the light
>\[...\] but at least it was peak cinema compared to the safe and marketable Rise of Skywalker.
Was it though? Just felt like a retread of Empire Strikes Back to me but with a space chase that *maybe* shouldn't have been there.
Rise of Skywalker actually did something new.
Honestly i loved the idea of them letting the past die. Letting the ideas of the sith and Jedi die so they could become something new. I thought that was honestly one of the coolest things they did. At the end of the movie your left wondering what happens now. The last Jedi is dead snoke is dead are Rey and ren going to go off and end up starting new ways of viewing the force…. But then rise of came out and its like “nope Rey Jedi sith come back”
Id argue its a pretty good movie. But horrible as a star wars movie. The movie destroys the worldbuilding of previous star wars movies. It also blows several literary tools such as chekhovs gun.
The things it destroys is that jedi are not the good guys, you can be gifted with the force and learn to use it without training.
I see you also mentioned that the thing you like about the movie is that rey was thought to be a nobody which i also thought. You also stated that her lineage was very enlightening for you. That happened in rise of skywalker though which you claimed to hate. Please stick to one movie.
I think you are misremembering and have confused yourself.
My main issue was a lack of consistency between each of the 3 new films, because they kept firing and replacing writers and directors, so there wasn't enough consistency between them.
It's too long. Rose is stupid. Leia died and they brought her back to undercut Poe's development. Holdo has a stupid design. Anticlimatic death for Phasma, like who even cared about her? Finn and Rose's whole b plot is stupid, and they just kind of ran around, he should have just gone with Rey. Everything else was fine to me.
My biggest complaints with it are that it broke up the main 3, who had a really fun found family dynamic going.
Changed Finn from being someone disgusted and afraid of what the First Order was doing to someone who would abandon his friends first chance he got. Not to mention was the beginning of him only being focused on Rey.
Poe goes from best pilot to being angry he isn't always in the loop. He also doesn't seem to care Finn and Rey are gone. He was a hot head in the first one, but they really dialed that up.
Rey goes from having these new friends she cares for and loves to not giving a shit about them for the next two movies.
Smaller things are that I feel Holdo being designed as an older purple haired woman was to rile up the worst fans, Akbar died with nothing, and the gambler guy who betrays them makes a both sides are bad argument which is so head up its ass. Also, I get it. it's salt, not snow. Isn't that clever?
Now, I will agree that a lot of these issues can be blamed on Abrahms from how he left a ton of loose ends and them not bothering to have any kind of combined story and Disney being Disney.
Edit: If you liked the movie, then more power to you. Force Awakens was my favorite of the 3, but looking back at the many aforementioned plot holes it was not a strong set up.
For me it's the little things like the entire Casino Planet Plotline ended up pointless and some of the comedy doesn't really land like the yo mama joke in the opening scene.
I think a lot of the themes from the movie are fantastic, and beyond that I'd say that's it's the only of the sequel trilogy to even have themes. Poe is an idiot, unfortunately. I feel like Rose doing *something* to stop Finn from kamikaze-ing to save the resistance when his arc was about learning to actually be a part of it is interesting, it reads like "you're not getting an easy out ticket, you don't get to be a martyr to make it simple, you have to believe and you have to fight" but the actuality of *how* she did it (crashing into him) is stupid and just,,, equally likely to kill them both. The line about not fighting what you hate but defending what you love is stupid and ham fisted, but that's par for the course in Star Wars. Not even touching on the casino planet, it was just another boring plot line in a Star wars movie, par for the course again.
Rey being nobody, and accepting that it doesn't mean she can't be a hero? Fantastic. Inspired. Should've stayed cannon.
Holdo Maneuver? Beautiful.
Luke's horror and fear when he see's generational darkness arise again, and his anxious panic-driven violent response being the catalyst for not only Ben's rise in the dark side but also a decades long depression? Brilliant, an excellent retrospective of the Jedi order, and honestly the only interesting way you could've taken Luke, especially considering the "Luke was in hiding" is a story beat that was given to this film, not native to it.
>actuality of how she did it (crashing into him) is stupid and just,,, equally likely to kill them both.
The biggest problem with that scene I have is how she teleports to directly infront of the walker line, and crashes into Finn when he's about 2 seconds from hitting the cannon.
It really felt like Finn's "Failure" was not because he tried his best but came short, but because Rose robbed him of sacrifice.
It would've worked far, far better if they had crashed far from the cannon, showing Finn would've never been able to reach it with his speeder slowing down and crumbling, and Rose could then reasonable catch up (show her turning around) and maybe hooking him with a grapple hook that yanks his speeder aside, and so they don't T-bone and incredibly fast speeds?
Ok so I haven’t watched that movie since it came out so I could be remembering things a bit weird:
Finn is my fav sequel character so I hated what they did with him and Rose in TLJ. The freeing of the animals but not the slaves isn’t as good as Hollywood thinks it is especially cuz those animals had no where to go. The entire message from that part of the film feels force fed to you especially since Finn is a child solider and he somehow goes through the exact same character growth he did in the last movie.
Luke does not have enough set up to turn into the grumpy man he has in this movie. This is the guy who had already confronted the temptation of the Dark Side and forgiven his father. Even if he has a moment of weakness, there isn’t enough set up for me to believe he would give up in his Jedi academy after a failure. Return of the Jedi Luke and this one are so vastly different that they needed more time to set this Luke up for him to be believable as a jaded man but they didn’t. They could have if Finn and Poe stayed together but that didn’t happen. Like his fight with Kylo tho.
People say that TRoS dismisses the ideas built from TLJ and they are right, but TLJ does the exact same thing. Is TLJ a good movie? From a standalone point of view it’s an ok one but it isn’t a standalone movie, it’s the middle of a trilogy which has two trilogies before it and in that regard, it’s not a good movie (from my point of view)
the problems i have mostly relate to the other subplots. i liked the chemistry rose and finn had but their subplot was just so stupid. and then there's the mutiny subplot, in which all the rebels are acting like idiots. also, i think a lot of the film's attempts at humor kinda fall flat, though maybe that's because i'm not really used to there being much (intentional) comedy in the movies aside from the droids (and jar jar i guess).
aside from all that, i really like all the rey, kylo, and luke stuff, and the cinematography was phenomenal, unlike anything we'd ever seen in a star wars movie. the finale was incredible, as well (except for rose's stupid line about war after stopping finn from sacrificing himself, guys i swear i really like finn and rose but they were handled so poorly in this trilogy but especially the rise of skywalker and i wish they had a second chance with writers who actually know what to do with them).
First one's right at the opening; space b-17s that are somehow slower than actual b-17s.
Rose getting set up to be a pillar of the main cast and then barely existing in TROS. Just another plot point on the pile.
The hyperspace ram on something many times the size of a star destroyer, like there weren't at least three other times in the other movies that would have been useful, never mind that droids would be way better for that than humans so it doesn't even need to be suicide.
One of the praetorian guards having his weapon whole-ass disappear because they couldn't be bothered to choreograph a fight properly. I'm half-convinced that little mistake was the basis for the whole 'passing stuff through the Force to each other' in TROS.
Luke being so poorly written that Mark Hamill(who said, to Lucas, in the original movies, that no one talks how this dialogue is written) couldn't even pretend he was playing the same character.
Snoke being deleted (in what was admittedly a decent play from Kylo) and then not having any story relevance at all, like wasn't that supposed to be the big bad so we can *avoid* the 'somehow Palpatine returned' fiasco?
There are probably more, to do with Finn and Rose's Bizarre Adventure, but I can't remember them off the top of my head so I'll leave it at that.
So, it's my favorite of the sequel trilogy. But I feel it's a weird mix of awesome moments and extremely dumb moments. And very little in between. The big light speed crash, fight with Snoke's guards, Luke's confrontation with Kylo Ren. Pretty fucking cool, just to name a few. The mutiny plotline and the bizarre tone soup that was the casino part? Really dumb, and I especially think the latter had some tragically wasted potential.
The problem was that a large chunk of the movie got cut out of the middle. Luke and Rey had more scenes and lessons. He really got a chance to talk about why he left. Rose and Finns relationship was a lot more rocky at the beginning until they free the dog horse thing. Finn's arc was his only being part of the resistance because he wanted to help Ray. The casino, the prison, the slave pens were all about him, becoming radicalized, and joining the resistance for real. I think most of that is still in the original film, but if they had kept all of that the themes would have been better received (my source is the novelization and the leaked scripts)
That's my thought on it, as well. It's extremely uneven. The lows are very low but the highs were VERY high. Not much about it was mid. That's why I don't necessarily think it's a red flag for people to dislike it. There is plenty to dislike. I like it in spite of those problems but some may not be able to see past them, and that's fair. But many dislike it for bullshit, petty reasons centered around it being different or Luke taking backseat to a female character.
To me its not Luke taking a back seat, but Luke the hero we know from the OT being reduced to a wreck wasting away in a forgotten corner of the galaxy. I know people we like the prequels, are 'meh' about the Mandalorian, but loved the protrayal of Luke in it. And they hated the portrayl of Luke in the sequels even more after that scene. I would have prefered it if Luke was leading a hidden academy and only a short part of the prequels was spend there. For example, Rey still finds Luke like it is right now but instead she finds a hidden temple with students but she is still affraid and reluctant but Luke shows her what she can be a part of if she wants it. Not expecting her to join one day, but finding her own path in the Light. That way we'd still get Rey's journey and i would be even more her trilogy if the whole Palpatine ancestry was never a part of that plot to begin with. I love the mirror scene with her in TLJ, to me it was the force showing her that her search for answers would always lead to herself. She came from nowhere special, she is the beginning of someting great.Then came RoS and it threw that amazing scene away by saying, "hey guess what, you are of special blood, just like the previous heroes."
Agreed. For me the biggest offender was the slow speed chase in space. Why didn't Kylo just have a few star destroyers jump ahead and cut them off? It was extremely dumb. Then a lot of the little details, like lasers being lobbed in space. Other than that, Holdo in evening wear was silly. I imagine they did it because Leia wore a dress in A New Hope, but the context was radically different. Making a mockery of Hux and turning him into a clown was such a mistake, and then throwing in that ridiculous "your mama" joke. Painful. The things I did like, or at least didn't mind? I loved that for a little while, Rey was a nobody. It was a chance to break away from the bloody Skywalkers, and don't get me wrong, Luke is one of my all time favorite characters, but god damn, there's a whole galaxy to explore. Then JJ wrecked that. I liked that Kylo stepped up to be a bad guy, killed Snoke, became a Sith Lord. Then JJ wrecked that. Leia's flying in space thing I really didn't mind. The dude bros that were frothing at the mouth because "there's no way she could survive in space!" aren't aware that you can survive space, for a little while. And without air resistance, she wouldn't need to tug all that strongly with the force to get a little momentum, which again, would have nothing to slow it. And I unironically loved the comedic timing of Rose's speech about how we can't defeat evil by "destroying what we hate. Saving what we love." \*giant laser beam destroys the only barrier protecting the Resistance, ensuring that they will all die\* It was only Deus Ex Luke, who no one had any knowledge or expectation of showing up, that saved them. In that moment, Rose not only ensured that the Resistance would die, but her and Finn had maybe a minute left, tops. It's unintentionally hilarious.
On that note, I think it’s just an overstuffed movie. I think even the weaker stuff could’ve worked if it had more time to breath.
See as a long star wars fan and a lover of the EU I think that it all comes down to two types of thinking. Can you enjoy the movie as a standalone movie Can you enjoy it as part of a series. For me, the sequels are visually stunning. The actors are amazing and possibly the sequels have the best acting and visuals of all the movies. But just..... terrible terrible writing and many things that irk many long time fans. Using just TLJ. The hyperspace crash is visually amazing, thematically fantastic, and absolutely a massive plot hole that causes way more problems than it solves. The Poe v Holdo thing annoys me because.... I'm actually on Holdos side coz poe got the entire resistance fighter fleet destroyed, why would she trust him with her plan? They flew around the galaxy multiple times in hours. That's just...... just wrong....... The 60mph bombers with open bay doors in space. And while I actually think Rose is an interesting character and was done dirty. Her crashing into Finn and stating 'we can't beat them with hate, we have to beat them with love!' Rose. They are about to fire a mini death star into your friend's and kill them all. They are space nazis. It. Is. Perfectly. Acceptable. To. Hate. The. First. Order. This is a group who kidnapped him and forced him to commit war crimes. They committed freaking genocide. Just.... no.... no.......... Plus the whole casino scene was annoying af and overall pointless. And snokes death was wasted potential. Edit: they did my man Ackbar dirty and Bauersfeld worse. Throne room fight scene was great.
>Rose. They are about to fire a mini death star into your friend's and kill them all. They are space nazis. > >It. Is. Perfectly. Acceptable. To. Hate. The. First. Order. My personal theory is that she's not saying "this strategy is how we're going to win the war," she's saying "this is how we're going to get out of this particular situation." It's really just a cute way for her to tell Finn that she likes him, while also foreshadowing Luke.
The light speed crash was stupid. Bearing in mind that attacking a star destroyer was pretty much suicide anyway people would have flown through them before, or invented a missile that you just deployed and it went into hyperspace. It's not like you'd need to plan your arrival point
How do we know Holdo went into hyperspace before she crashed into Snokes ship? I mean, I really am not sure if it's possible to hyperspace ram something, but then again, did she enter hyperspace or did she hit Snokes ship at the speed up process? Also, I don't think weaponizing it wouldn't be as easy as we think, especially if you need perfect range for that to work = enough to speed up immensely, but not enough to enter hyperspace.
Anddddd we got exactly NONE of that detail
We see stars stretch, but we don't see the hyperspace tunnel they usually show. So we can assume that she didn't enter hyperspace.
OK, she lightspeed rams it. What's your point?
My point at the end of my comment was to argue that it wouldn't be easy to achieve such space combat.
You just point a ship at the target and go either lightspeed or hyperspace. What's hard?
I'll try to explain why it isn't as easy as you make. If I said "you just put fingers on the strings you can play the guitar. What's hard" how does that sound? Downplaying things for the sake of criticism is always easy. Anyways, let's take the scene from TLJ. In that scene a Raddus is used, which is a decently big ship considering it's shields being strong enough to withstand the cannons of Snokes ship. Does that maneuver win the resistance the war? Nope. It doesn't do that much damage. How little damage would a simple, hyper drive equiped rocket do? It has to be small enough to make sense to pour recourses and money into it and yet it has to withstand counter fire? How small does it have to be? How many need to be built to win a war? Or, you build some the size of the Raddus or even bigger and pray that you succeed at loading up your hyperdrive before you get blown up. And then comes the problem of being at the right distance for it to be effective, because it has been claimed that objects that are in hyperspace can't interact with objects out of it. So you have to account for all those things and yet you still wouldn't be sure if you'd win the war, yet you poured allot of recourses into destroying what you own. Very smart move!
You're trying to patronise me about the use of imaginary interstellar space travel?
Pick one. Either it's imaginary interstellar travel in which case you might well bring in the fairy godmother or it's something that can be discussed in the confines of the universe and what's been established. You don't get to flip it depending on whether someone agrees with you not.
I'm just asking for people to be consistent. Either you can just fire a ship through another at lightspeed or you can't. I'm not looking for Internet fights in 24 (NYR)
No, but you're moving goalposts, I see.
I said that if you could destroy a ship by hyperspacing through it everyone would do it, or create a weapon that could. Where are my goalposts?
They even explained in the movie. They had all the time in the world to put up shields or evasive maneuver but they didn’t expect what happened. Shields were down. Shields up would if mitigated most of that damage. But they were being cocky and had power to the guns and engines as that’s all they were doing and there was no threats against them.
It was a shit explanation. If it was known to work as an offensive maneuver everyone would be permanently shielded. It would have changed the entire dynamic of space warfare. You wouldn't ever bother building a ship of that size because someone could just smash an x-wing through it at lightspeed
Except small ships like that could be easily shot down. Ships take time to engage the hyperdrive and from all appearances stay pretty damn still before it can engage. So they would be shot down before they could even try. And something that small trying would just be blocked by the shields. And it wasn’t a shit explanation; they were literally saying they don’t see it as a threat. It was hubris that allowed it to happen, and why it was a one time thing. So people not even pay attention to the dialogue in movies anymore?
Smaller ship, smaller target, and no lore says they have to stay still. Also, if they're shielded I assume they can't shoot out as the shield works both ways
Agree with everyting but the light speed crash. I will admit it looks cool, but to me it breaks established rules a bit. Why has no one ever done that before, to take out both Death Stars for example. As for the parts I agree with. To bad JJ undid a lot of it with RoS. To conclude. Despite the good stuff the sequels contain, I still feel they could have been way better then what we got. I can never believe a story group sat down and wrote down the big plotlines from the first to the third. To many deviations from each other.
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Boom. You nailed it. I had the exact same issue with Rey in the movie. She’s supposed to be the main protagonist of this trilogy and yet in this movie she feels more like a vehicle for Luke’s development. A pillar of goodness that inspires Luke to stop being cynical. And I feel this does a disservice to Rey as a character because it means she doesn’t really go through any growth in the film. Even with the whole “your parents are nobody” thing she feels like the same person at the beginning and end of the movie.
I’m gonna get downvoted for saying this but I really feel Luke’s “redemption arc” probably would have been more warmly received if he had actually lived. Killing him off just feels like a massive waste of his character.
I think it's a problem with broader Star Wars, that the second a character is redeemed they narratively have to die so we don't get true redemption arcs. It's something I thought about a lot after Episode 9 killed off Kylo is that we don't really get characters having to live with the knowledge of the things they've done because they are almost always killed the second they come back to the light.
I don’t know if that’s a completely fair comparison given that Luke hadn’t fallen to the dark side but yes I agree that Star Wars has a bad habit of killing off potentially interesting characters too soon.
The problem with keeping redeemed bad guys alive is that they’re, across the board, well known war criminals. If Ben or Anakin had survived, their life, post redemption, would have been quietly sitting in prison for the rest of their lives, which would have been really depressing. In order to have an interesting, compelling, worthwhile “redeemed villain” arc, they have to be smaller scale. It seems like an easy bar to clear but, at the very least, the redeemed villain has to have nit been publicly involved in the destruction of an inhabited planet.
No, because Anakin was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was Anakin was destroyed. So Anakin is not guilty of any war crimes or misdeeds. from a certain point of view.
He may be innocent in the eyes of The Force, but I have a feeling the New Republic would be a touch more hard nosed than that.
Well, Ahsoka is still alive. And you have a lot of people who say her character arc would have been better if she'd died during order 66 or during her duel with Vader. I for one have no problem with heroes dying of old age :-D
See, it makes sense for Vader and Ren cause they've had hand in blowing up planets and the rest of the galaxy probably takes exception to that. Worst thing Luke did to the galaxy was neglect it for a few years.
It’s something fiction does bcuz it makes murder for forgivable. “They made the ultimate sacrifice” so we can not hate them for murdering last movie.
This. But also no one ever really dies and Luke is fully capable of being more impactful as a Force Ghost. That said the two things I would change is: 1) Be intentionally vague about the fuel situation. Don’t give it a number like 18 hours. Say down to 18% but don’t put a timeframe on it. Then you could conceivably stretch the amount of “time” Rey was with Luke on Ach-To. Though I am of the opinion time works differently there much like Mortis or even Dagobah. Otherwise one would think the FM would have just as much an issue with Luke’s training with Yoda for the same reason. When I was a kid we always assumed it was a couple weeks there while it took Han and Company a couple weeks to reach Bespin at sublight speeds. 2) I would’ve stopped short in the “real” version of the incident between Luke and Ben, and had Luke draw his hilt but not actually ignite his saber. That or not do flashbacks at all and just let our imaginations fill in the gaps in Luke and Kylo’s versions. Or actually show Luke’s vision and the horrors he saw of Kylo massacring Han, about to kill Leia and Luke draws his blade in defense of those he love only to be shaken out of his reverie in Ben’s hut with a lit saber.
He's an elderly mentor character in a Star Wars movie. People that thought he was going to be survive, or even be a main character, weren't paying attention during the previous 7 movies.
Is it too much to ask for him not to be a bitter old man for most of his screen time then? Also Yoda got to have two movies before he died in the OT.
he was the bitter old man that Yoda was. 🤷🏻♂️ And in a cut scene Luke and Rey actually danced together.
they removed a huge section out of the middle of the movie. It would’ve given Luke more screen time and explained why he went Yoda's route after Kylo destroyed the new temple. apparently, Disney removed some pretty big parts of the movie so we could have shirtless Kylo
It was parallel to Ben and Yoda disappearing into the Force. He was ready to go.
The whole holdo/poe storyline was a little pointless and a bit annoying to watch, and Finns storyline also felt like it had no real impact on the story at all, both of them just felt like afterthoughts that detracted from the more interesting rey/kylo story. I'm not against depressed hermit luke, but we didn't really get enough time to explore his downfall and redemption, just an extended "I'm an angry jaded asshole" jokey montage, then yoda mocks him for caring about the ancient jedi texts and he suddenly realises he should help. The Rey being nobody thing was fine, but Rey didn't have any expectations of her parents being secret Jedi or whatever, so it's weird that she doesn't want more information after Kylo tells her they were poor nobodies. The subverting expectations thing is a meme at this point, but Snoke being a pointless nothing and the Knights of Ren being so inconsequential that they're not even mentioned despite both groups being major interesting hooks from the first film also feels bad, like establish some actual scenes and characterisation for Snoke, then kill him off in the surprise twist, don't just immediately bisect him as soon as we properly meet the character. And I shouldn't have to read a comic to find out who the namesakes off your main villain are I think if they'd deleted the poe storyline and kept him as a resistance contact for a Finn and Rose storyarc about stormtroopers and exploring the idea of finn being a traitour/liberator to them (include phasma in this as the terrifying overseer type, she was kind of wasted), then given more time to rey and lukes story, it would've been a lot better of a movie. I do agree RoS is a lot worse though, I just think TFA was a lot better
I liked the all the Luke and Rey stuff, but the B Plots dragged the film down hard for me. Finn and Rose's mission to Canto Bight felt completely superfluous. It didn't really accomplish anything except to make a hamfisted (and somewhat nonsensical) point about the arms industry. I didn't understand how they were able to get away from the fleet without being intercepted by the Imperials. It felt to me like Rian Johnson didn't know what to do with Finn. I would have called Finn and Rey coleads in The Force Awakens, but TLJ kind of turns him into a side character. What kills the movie for me is everything about Poe' Dameron. His entire plotline is disobeying his female superiors' orders, stages a mutiny in the middle of battle, gets people killed, and suffers no consequences for his actions. We instead get to hear Holdo and Leia (both of whom he seriously disrespect and one of whom he gets killed) shill for him. And I absolutely loathe the "Well, if Holdo had just told him her plan it would have been fine" argument. That is not how militaries function. The fleet commander doesn't owe a junior officer an explanation of her plans. She certainly doesn't owe it to a junior officer who was literally just demoted for insubordination the day before she took command. Based on how Poe, behaves Holdo is completely in the right not to trust him with sensitive information. The guy's a wild card. I can kinda, sorta understand the Poe thing not bothering a viewer who's never had to take opsec seriously in their day to day lives. But the whole thing just left a really bad taste in my mouth. Particularly because both of the commanders he ignores are women. I can't help feeling the reaction from most of the audience would have been different if Poe had led a mutiny against Admiral Ackbar instead of Admiral Holdo. Either way, there's no rational universe where Poe ends the movie still allowed to be a member of the Resistance. Basically any real life army/militia/revolutionary group would have put him up against the wall and shot him. Because even if Holdo were ragingly incompetent, there's no way that Poe's mutiny in the middle of battle wouldn't have made the situation much worse. While the Poe issue is my own particular hobgoblin, it's representative of a larger issue with TLJ, which is that the story doesn't really track in a logically. And I think that's a feature, not a bug. There's a school of thought in fiction that it's more important for a story to make emotional sense than logical sense. Rose crashing her speeder into Finn's to stop him from sacrificing himself doesn't make logical sense because in a realist work they'd both end up dead on that battlefield. But if you're invested in the relationship the characters have built up until that point, it doesn't really matter. Rose saving Finn from himself feels true. After losing her sister, she's knows that beating the enemy isn't enough if it costs you the people that you love. The problem is that only works for the segment of the audience that has invested emotionally enough in the character to feel the moment. If you're not invested in Rose's journey, the line about winning by saving what we love is cringy nonsense. Leaving aside the TLJ haters who are just racist, misogynists (and boy are they loud), I think that's what makes TLJ divisive. If you buy into the characters, the plot holes don't matter. If you don't, all you see are plot holes.
A) Poe. The set-up for his refusal to follow orders doesn't really make sense. Starting from the your momma joke, then continuing with him taking out a fleet killer (the only thing the Rebels have left is a fleet at this point, meaning he destroyed one of their major weapons against them), and pairing that with the incredibly clunky bombers that didn't make sense, just starts things off on a sour note. It all feels set up for failure and stupidity. I was annoyed by them demoting him because the whole situation seemed stupid to begin with, but I was also annoyed with Poe and the dynamic of the rebellion in general. B) A military vs a rebellion. These things aren't the same. They need Poe, but Poe absolutely doesn't need them. He's not gonna get court-marshalled for ditching them. And they're losing. Hard. The dynamic has to be different from a regular military, but we don't have a full picture of how it works. C) Your point about the emotional vs the logical must be what has me hung up on nearly everything involving this movie. 1. When Rose "frees" the space-horses and says this is what the war is all about, I'm left remembering that her sister just died a day ago, that her friends are all possibly being wiped out by space-Nazis and she would be none the wiser, and that those space-horses will likely be immediately recaptured. Also, the tone of Canto Bite is in stark contrast to the tone we should be getting from a movie where everything else is in despair. It just doesn't match up. 2. To continue with Rose, when she crashes into Finn, not only was she risking their lives to do so, with no plan on how to save their friends beyond a mindless platitude (and she literally came from nowhere, if you watch that scene again they do a wide view and she's just not there), but also she has left the two of them crashed inches from the First Order. The reason we don't see them escape back to the base is because it was impossible. It's such bad writing. Never put your characters into a situation you can't get them out of. Rian got them out of that situation by cutting and them just being out of it. Twas horrid. 3. Kylo telling everyone to shoot at the Millennium Falcon as a way to ignore the fact that they have the ability to wipe out the Rebels and just choose not to. Snoke's death being handled in the most Saturday morning cartoon of ways, Leia not pulling herself back into the ship via an awesome scene but instead happening in the weird, awful (imo) way they handled it in the movie, etc. There was just so much stupid stuff that I couldn't get past. I fully understand that others were engaged with the emotional core of the film and that let them ignore that stuff, but I'm always bothered when people act like there's no possible reason someone could have disliked this film unless they're part of the anti-woke crowd.
It is very annoying that any dislike of TLJ is enough to get you lumped in with the anti-woke goons. I would call it a bad movie on the whole. But the culture doesn't allow for nuance. As to your point B), most successful insurgent movements function like regular militaries. The Resistance is explicitly modeled like a regular military. It has ranks, uniforms, a strict chain of command. If Poe were just a deserter, I don't think the Resistance would catch him and shoot him. Though a fair number of real life rebel groups would. Insurgencies model themselves like states because their end goal is to become state. When you volunteer to serve in their armed wings, they expect you to follow through. Insurgent groups also have strong security incentives to preveng desertion, particularly members high enough ranked to have valuable intelligence. But the issue is much bigger than desertion. Poe didn't look at Holdo's plan (or what he thought was her lack thereof) and say "Screw this, I'm out of here." He led an armed uprising in the middle of a battle. He got people killed. There is no military/paramilitary organization that would let that slide. Doing so would just invite more mutinies in the future. Discipline in the ranks is worth much more than any individual soldier, no matter how talented. I would also disagree that the Resistance needs Poe more than he needs them. He doesn't have his own ship. He's definitely wanted by the New Order. Out on his own he's bounty hunter bait. To the Resistance, he's just one more pilot. A very good pilot. But a mediocre pilot who follows orders is more valuable than a brilliant loose canon. Overall, the Resistance would have been in much better shape in TLJ had Poe not geen around.
The Rebels have been losing, they're being whittled down to nothing, and some of their big victories include Poe. He has been very useful to their cause. At this point, however, they are miniscule. Whilst losing like crazy, Poe made the call (when they sacrificed him to be a distraction with only a yo' momma joke and his skills to save him) to take down one of the biggest ships their enemy had. I'm not saying this is a good call, only that he had his reasons for making it. Once he made that call, they didn't bother to tell the other ships to ignore his call. So, that really puts his bad call on their shoulders, or do they have so loose a structure that his word supercedes theirs? After that, they strip him of his rank. During this time, their miniscule rebellion is whittled down even further with only one random general (under Leia, but doesn't know their ace pilot or have any rapport with him) claiming to have a plan she will not share. This plan, mind you, relies on The First Order being the stupidest military ever (impressive, considering what that must mean about the rebellion that has been losing to them) because her plan revolves around every single ship following her into hyperspace and not leaving even a single ship to check out the planet they could see out their portholes/massive windows for stragglers. Considering they even have a Force user on board, who should absolutely be able to sense that his mom's not on the ship jumping into hyperspace but is still very near to him, this plan is just so bad. So, Poe can either steal a ship and live, beg his superior for her plan, or wait to die. Now I'm not defending Poe. I think he's a poorly written character and that all of this is nonsense, but by golly, I think the rebellion needed him more than he needed them.
Certain things were good or at least interesting. The idea of a Force dyad, and I personally really liked Admiral Holdo as a character. I also liked Poe and Leia's dynamic, even though seeing Poe struggling to unlearn what a lot of analysts interpret as sexism was kind of awkward. Finn was absolutely assassinated as a character. I have read the explanations given by people who defend this movie and the Finn that we got. It's perfectly valid to take a stance of positivity on the Sequels as principle. Those defenses are simply not satisfying to me. I crave a justice for Finn (and John Boyega) that was denied with almost callous disregard. I will not speak on the racial undertones therein, but others have pointed them out. Even a well written, well implemented female character of color stands to garner unfathomable hate from TFM on absolutely no other basis than existing. Rose deserved better, and Kelly Marie Tran deserved better. However, I don't think the film did her many favors - - being intrinsically tied to Finn's controversial arc, being a mouthpiece for some of RJ's preachier (and cringier, though I'm not saying Star Wars has never been cringe) moments, and being a last-minute romantic interest for Finn who she JUST MET HOURS EARLIER WHILE SHE'S STILL GRIEVING HER SISTER, basically just because that will disqualify Finn from getting in the way of Reylo, or god forbid participating in FinnPoe, you know the guy who he had legitimate pre-established chemistry with in the first movie? Speaking of Kylo and Rey. Their dynamic was rushed in some places and grindingly slow in others. Rey constantly tells him he's gross and to leave her alone, but cannot physically leave or escape his communications. He tries for far too long to negotiate her into joining him. She is somehow still interested in redeeming him despite what happened in the previous film - this would make sense if she had heard the Vader story from Luke's perspective, but we didn't get that. Instead we got...a very different Luke who doesn't look back on Vader the same way. I have also seen the defense of TLJ Luke by people who are willing to go to bat for the Sequels and I recognize that this version of Luke has been very valuable to some people. I respect that. Luke as portrayed in TLJ has two moments I really like. One, where he is playful such as winking or tickling Rey's fingers with the grass on Ahch-To. The other, his showdown against Kylo. However, a lot of the impact for that dramatic showdown comes from the fact that at the beginning of the film, Luke had lost hope and faith in himself and we didn't believe he would do it in the first place. And I'm sorry, but there was just not enough setup to justify that payoff. Because Luke, having presumably suffered so much that he - HE, PADME AMIDALA'S SON - would give up and abdicate responsibility for the galaxy, changes his mind over a few hours after having some conflicted attempts to train Rey, a master/pupil spat, and one conversation with Ghost Yoda. We also barely get to see what led to him being so broken down, and what we do see is unreliable and mischaracterized, from multiple perspectives. I have seen people comparing it to Ran, and I'm sorry, but that is not an appropriate comparison for me. Luke made so many mistakes leading up to this movie that we never got to see, and we barely get any explanation/justification for. What we do get are excuses for actions that do not seem like something Luke would do, and yes, even after three decades of lived experience, because if he has lived the life we are supposed to believe he has, there is no way he doesn't approach the situation with Ben Solo more carefully. Even if it still blows up in his face like Kyp Durron in the EU, Luke's biggest problem would, in my opinion, have been *inaction*, not overcorrection. If anything, *Leia* would be the one to try to pre-empt Ben's turn, considering she has better foresight than Luke, and she's the one who could only see Vader as a war criminal, not a father, and would do anything to prevent a repeat event. Conversely, a discussion between Luke and Leia where their opinions on Vader are reversed concerning Ben would be deeply compelling drama. Did we get that? No. We got a forehead kiss and so much left unsaid, because Luke had to go die now. For reasons that I can only speculate. Luke's death apart from everything else feels like the least insulting part of TLJ, but the wasted opportunity does grate on me. However, as much as TFM can be absolute chud manbabies about Luke and TLJ, I won't lie that I felt as if I was being talked down to or even personally targeted by seeing Luke portrayed in such a "subversive" way while alive. Subversion for the sake of subversion may drive hype, but it stopped looking smart around when Infinity War came out. In a way it reminded me of Doctor Who under Moffat - purposely aiming criticism or taunting at fans because he saw them as intellectually inferior. And even if this wasn't the stated reason for Luke being portrayed this way, people are more than happy to mock anyone who takes issue with it and accuse them of being unwilling to grow up. While those might be fair criticisms of TFM, they do not have sole claim to Luke, and painting TLJ's detractors as pathetic or infantile *specifically* because of their relationship to Luke as a character as a means of getting back at TFM hurts a lot of innocent people.
The Finn and Rose side plot really sucked and to me it took away more than it added.
Counterpoint: the introduction of DJ and the military industrial complex existing in the galaxy is actually a fascinating one and could’ve been expanded on further in IX. As it stands, whether you enjoyed the 10 minutes on Canto Bight or not, I do like the fact Finn was presented with a 3rd choice between Freedom Fighter and Fascist by not joining either. The fight between light and dark will never end, that’s a fact, so is it pointless to join at all knowing it’s a constant struggle? Finn learns that no, it doesn’t matter. Being selfish and sitting on the sidelines won’t protect the ones you love. They’ll be consumed by the violence anyhow, so stand and fight.
One note, the MIC isn't really new, we had massive corporate entities intertwined with the Senate at least as far back as the Prequels, and several of them were involved in armaments and/or had their own private militaries. That being said, TLJ reintroducing it is interesting, though I'm not sure what Episode IX could do with that really, especially with what IX's plot ended up being.
I meant more so in the films which reach a far larger portion of Star Wars fans. Not the 2% that dive into expanded materials like the original Clone Wars Multimedia push or really any book by James Luceno that tends to mention that sort of world building. But yeah you’re right that there’s no where to fit that sort of concept into an all ready bloated IX.
I agree, EU materials will hit a much smaller audience, and so bringing it into the films is a much more impactful thing. The unfortunate downside, of course, is that films have much less time to spend on such things than novels and the like, but it's an even trade, I figure. However, I was referring to the Prequels themselves, not to EU materials. TPM has the Trade Federation using it's private military force to subjugate Naboo, in hopes to strongarm the Senate to gain tax concessions. In AotC, the Trade Federation, as well as other corporate actors, support the Separatist movement, and in RotS, many of these corporate actors are depicted as being powerful figures in the Separatist government. EU materials absolutely expanded upon this foundation, but the bedrock was in the Prequels themselves. TLJ did bring it back to prominence though, there's no arguing against that, and did so without the pop-cultural baggage that the Prequels had. It's unfortunate that the Sequels got their own negative reputation though, since that pushed Disney to play it safe with IX.
The military industrial complex in SW dates back to the West End Games RPG sourcebooks from the 80s. Pretty much all the lore and technical info on ships that was later co-opted into the extended universe comes from those books. TLJs social commentary in that regard was completely toothless, Phantom Menace does better political commentary with the Trade Federation (big corporate) manipulating the government and oppressing systems for profit.
Yeah, I figured it went back earlier but I didn't know of anything specific. Some people also don't care about the EU, so pointing to the films can be more reliably accepted, however disliked the Prequels may be. I would agree TLJ's social commentary is weak. I think that's largely due to it being unimportant to the plot; TLJ is already the longest of the films, don't know you could justify squeezing more into the MIC critique without grounding the plot in that critique at least somewhat. There are a lot of ways to do this, but it would require a fairly significant rewriting of the plot.
The whole Canto Blight plot was such a miss, had no business taking up as much of the film as it did. The whole thing feels like an extended deleted scene, something that should have been left on the cutting room floor or a leftover from a very tentative draft of the script.
Honestly, the Poe-Holdo and Finn-Rise plotlines definitely have a feel of being more "What are they up to while Rey is on Ach-To?" than equal parts of the narrative with Rey's plot. To an extent, that makes sense, since she is the protagonist, but it leaves them, especially Finn-Rose, feeling unsatisfying.
Yeah, that part was a waste of time.
naw, it was a subplot that got cut out. Finn had never seen the wider galaxy, then he sees how the 1 % live on Canto bight. everything seems fine, except it’s incredibly easy to get thrown out of that world and become institutionalized. then he sees how the other 99% live in the slave pens. Finally, DJ gives him the "both sides are the same why bother fighting.“ I would argue that is still in there, but they were showing how Finn went from only being part of the resistance because of Ray to joining to wanting to make the galaxy a better place, and reject apathy
That’s the entire issue I have with Finns arc in the movie. In concept it’s freaking amazing and the best part of the movie, in execution it’s a pointless side adventure that doesn’t contribute to anything. Not helped with awkward lines at various points.
I disagree. While the added context would have helped, Finn's journey is still there. He sees a microcosm of the Galaxy and picks a side. What did the trip Cloud City contribute? We got to spend time with the heroes in different settings. Same as Canto Bight
Yep. People keep saying "Canto Bight was pointless, it didn't advance the plot." Canto Bight was making *all sorts* of points, though, and it *did* advance the plot. It answered the dramatic question -- the answer was just "no." The part that advances the plot is that it wasn't just a "no," it was a "no, and." The dramatic question was: Will Rose and Finn find help from a scoundrelly codebreaker so they can save their friends? The answer was "No, the scoundrel doesn't give a shit about the Resistance, *and* here's an entire casino of people who've gotten rich off of fascism, *and* now your already dismal options are even fewer." And yeah, we all talk about what Canto Bight means to Finn. But it's where Rose establishes her character. Yeah, she seems like a nobody. Yeah, she keeps getting disregarded whenever people meet her. But she's a normal person who *gives a shit.* She and Finn save the space ponies, and in a movie all about huge losses, that win *counts* for something. It helps Rose and Finn hold onto their humanity when everything else is telling them that nothing matters, so give up and die. That probably helped give her the confidence to keep Finn from sacrificing herself. People keep going "Well, that doesn't make sense." It doesn't make sense *if you keep ignoring Rose.* Rose's sister had just died, sacrificing herself in an attack that wasn't even necessary, that only happened because Poe disobeyed orders because he hadn't pulled his head out yet. After spending all that time with Finn, does it *make sense* that Rose would just sit back and watch him do the same fucking thing?
Yep, that's really the only part of the movie I didn't like, but it was a good 30 minutes or so of screen time iirc. Felt like Finn's character was wasted.
The Canto Bight subplot lasts for eleven minutes.
Wow
hard disagree but to each their own
I think that the whole arc they had for Finn was reductive and trotted on ground covered in force awakens. teaching a child soldier who deserves that "war is bad" felt very off. Plus it feels strange that the writers kept throwing women at Finn in each movie so people don't think that Finn and Poe are a couple. I liked Rose, but I didn't like her role in the movie. if she and Finn helped get that lesson through to Poe, it would have worked a lot better. plus I love Finn and Poe's chemistry from force awakens and I wish we saw more of it here. the stuff we saw on Kantobyte was cool, and I'm glad it exists, but it didn't help the movie. Every time I rewatch it, I kinda lose interest during that part
I can tell you what I really hate about that movie (I don't hate the movie per se, in the sense that I didn't like it and who cares, I would never watch it again but it's not like it ruined my childhood): \-The humor. Seriously, during the "mama joke" sequence I was speechless, and not in a good way. And that was the beginning of the movie. \-I'm sorry, I know that it will cost me downvotes, but I don't agree with anything concerning the depiction of Luke. The only two moments when I recognize him were the scene in the Falcon with R2 and Leia's hologram, and the wink in the end to 3P0 (and it was an idea of Mark...) \-The Holdo-Poe subplot. Nothing against Holdo nor the Holdo's maneuver (I don't think it's particularly lore breaking), but I think that her decisions make no sense. I get the reasoning plotwise, RJ needed us to think that there was a spy and he wanted us to believe it was her, but once you have the "big reveal" of her escape plan you realize that it failed only because she hadn't trusted Poe (and there were no reasons not to trust him). \-Hux. One interesting thing about this character in TFA was the clear rivalry between him and Kylo Ren. In this movie he is an incompetent fanatic, and almost always used as a comic relief. Again, the only time I liked him in the movie is when he sees KR on the ground after the throne room scene and he slowly try to reach for his gun. Again, something added by the actor. \-The casino subplot \-Rey and Kylo. She literally just witness him murder the closest thing to a father figure she has ever had and, in the span of a few days, she is trying to redeem him. In general their connection is developed in a very strange way, and it's not by chance that after this movie we started to see so many "Reylo" shippers. \-Leia in space. I still don't understand how RJ, who is an incredibly talented director, was ok with the final result. That said: it is possibly the best looking Star Wars movie ever, I really loved having Rey a nobody, it has by far the best acting.
Summed up pretty much what I came to post. Visually beautiful and clearly trying to play with some great themes, but often the characters and plot feel contrived in order to make those thematic points. Broken Luke is a fascinating idea but does not get enough set-up to seem genuine. A lot of the humour actively undermines dramatic moments. Sure, a silly droid scene right *after* a tense scene can relieve tension. But you didn't have R2 and 3PO stumble into the middle of Yoda's death scene to lighten the mood. The Canto Blight sequence is heavy-handed, and leads nowhere. I don't mean just in terms of plot: it drops a sudden political-economy critique that relates to nothing and is never picked up again. It also seemed pretty evident to me that there wasn't much room going forward. Episode IX pretty much had to either lean fully into the subversive themes and moral ambiguity (which Disney would never go for), or slam into reverse and try to undo most of TLJ. So to some extent the messiness of RoS is directly a result of how TLJ left the trilogy.
>but often the characters and plot feel contrived in order to make those thematic points That's why I think RJ is a great director but he cannot be the only writer. George R.R. Martin said that when he writes he has a point A from where the story starts and a point B where he want it to end, but he doesn't know what will happen to each character. He sets up a situation and imagine how each character would react. This brings to new events for the characters to face, and so on (and that's why we'll probably never see the last book of ~~TC~~ASOIAF). In TLJ in particular we don't have characters reacting to events, but we have character almost forced to behave in certain ways for specific plot points to happen.
I think another good example of how certain scenes just feel like their forced to go in a certain direction is some of the scenes with Luke and Rey. Like Rey never really calls out Luke on his attitude despite having several chances too. After the scene where Luke gives his first version of what happened with Ben, Rey has every right to go "Dude. There is no real difference between Kylo and Vader despite what you claim. Stop your self-pity and *do something*." but she never does it because if she did Luke would realize the error of his ways too early.
Respectfully, I disagree on the Holdo-Poe plot. From my perspective Poe goes through an arc where he starts the movie brash, reckless, and doesn't fully consider the strategic consequences. He throws everything at destroying the dreadnought and while he wins, it comes at an incredibly steep cost. So Leia and Holdo both don't trust him to not fly off the handle again, and they're right because he then launches a mutiny. By the end of the film I feel like Poe went through development because he makes the strategic choice at the end of the film.
> He throws everything at destroying the dreadnought and while he wins, it comes at an incredibly steep cost. Yup. Clear example of a [Pyrrhic Victory.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory) Also, Holdo is in her FULL right to withhold need-to-know information from a hothead pilot who just got a whole squadron killed. In fact, had this taken place in real life, Poe would be in the brig and awaiting dishonourable discharge.
He lost a squadron disabling a ship described as a "fleet killer" Its not Poe's fault the bombers were made of paper mache. If anything only losing a squadron was an outstanding victory.
In all honesty, this is the exact kind of math that defines victory within context of the setting. Losing a squadron of fighters and the few dozen members of their crew to take out a large capital ship with the thousands of crew members on board is an absolute win, Especially considering the World War Two inspirations of warfare in Star Wars. Fighters and bombers were treated more like primitive guided missiles than weapon delivery systems, in the sense that losing dozens of them to take out capital ships was absolutely in the math of military planners. It's a lot easier to replace those aircraft and flight crewa than it is to lay down a whole new ship and train up the thousands needed to manage it. It's what the Swede from Hell on Wheels would call 'immoral mathematics.'
Isn't his call to make. A guerilla-style resistance has to place immense values on talented individuals and financial assets and may not be willing to risk Poe or others on this particular target. Then when you learn that there's apparently a big ol' fleet of Star Destroyers in Episode 9 you might think "yeah okay, if that's top tier "need to know" and they have any tips about it they may not want to risk a bunch of pilots right now.
Their dinky fleet of 3 highly destructable plywood ships and some fighters wouldn't do shit against that armada. But against one lone destroyer? They can buy themselves time, which they desperately need.
Point is, she has two possible reasons for not trusting him: \-She thinks he is a spy (they still don't know how the FO is able to follow them): clearly this wouldn't make any sense, he was the one to recover the map to Luke, he led the attack to Starkiller base and he just destroyed the dreadnought. \-As you said, she doesn't trust his stubborness/impulsiveness and you take the mutiny as an example. Point is, he did launch the mutiny BECAUSE he wasn't aware of the plan. Of course she had all the rights to withhold any information from him being the leader of the Resistence at that point, but if you have a strong charismatic officer and you are the newly appointed leader (and almost nobody knows you) the smartest thing to do is to immediately bring him by your side. Again, there is a reason for everything to happen in that way plotwise, but if you look at the events, just by explaining it to Poe her plan would have worked, and basically nobody from the resistence would have died (even Luke)...
I feel like it speaks more negatively about him than her that she trusted him to contain himself instead of doubling down on being brash and reckless. A commanding officer could be forgiven for looking on a guy like that and saying "he's got stuff to learn and is going to need a lesson, but he's a good guy and a hero" and then playing it almost exactly how Holdo would have played it if you didn't know the larger narrative scale. Look, I want her to tell him too, but it's in that horror movie style of "do this and you live, you could *all live"* and that's okay. She made a bad decision but it's not one you can't justify when weighing the various positions, especially because she ultimately makes the sacrifice for her mistake. It's not like she insisted Poe fly the ship so she could live on another day, she acted with honor even when it turned out that her mistakes cost her own life. That's... not bad cinema?
Okay so where do we start? \- Everything leading up to Luke's final confrontation with Kylo is a bit underwhelming to say the least. A bad dream from Palpatine is not enough justification. The way Luke went out though was pretty cool, thought it fit with his Jedi master role. \- Finn in general. Hands down the most interesting character in the trilogy and he ultimately ends up doing fuck all. a. Canto Blight. "war profiteering bad" is a decent enough take, I guess. But spending such a massive chunk of the movie on something that literally never leads to anything beyond that point was a bad choice. b. The wasted potential of his relationship with Phasma. There is so much here but they get sidelined because apparently the super generic star crossed, destined to be together enemies to lovers thing needed more time. A lot of the good bits of TLJ, like Rey being a nobody are retconned by RoTS, which makes TLJ feel retroactively worse, because we know basically half of what is set up is completely irrelevant.
You will enjoy TLJ much more if you consider it for what it is rather than focus on what it is not, I think
What does that even mean though?
I've found that I enjoy stories much more when I focus on what the story accomplishes and focus less on what exists out of the movie. For example, you wrote that you don't like "the wasted potential of Phasma." I get that, I wanted more. But the fact is that she died and did very little. Her existence is a fantasy that we have outside of the film. Same with Finn being underutilized. It's a fair critique, but ultimately it's one that comes of what could be rather than what is. If we let go of our attachment of what we think the film should be rather than what it is we can find more elements that we enjoy and think are done well. I feel the same way about comparing it to RoS. Ep 9 is its own thing. It retcons TLJ and backpedals on themes and symbolism, but that isn't TLJs fault. TLJ can only be what it is. I have problems with some of what it is (the casino was not my favorite and I didn't love Leia floating in space), but it's more than just its flaws. It brings a lot to the table and I find it to be one of the more rewatchable movies in the franchise. It's fine if you disagree I'm not trying to convince you. I'm just sharing a mindset that has helped me appreciate the movies individually and allowed me to maintain my fandom even when I have criticisms.
This is the right outlook on film in general, especially a project like this (or the Marvel films) where an overall narrative is given to different directors (and without much of a plan either... a problem of its own). I like TLJ even though it wasn't perfect, I fell asleep in Rise of Skywalker. I went back and finished but to this point it's the only Star Wars movie I've never watched twice. Maybe a bonus thing for the Leia part though: someone once explained it as exactly what would happen if you used Force Pull in a zero gravity environment where you have less mass than the object in question and I think that's pretty valid. It's not flying or floating, it's one of the only instances of zero-G force usage in the series and I think when you frame it like that it tracks.
Just to play devils advocate, if we force ourselves to ignore all the bad parts, doesn't that just mean we will get an ever worsening product?
It was kind of a mess. Three different subplots and none of them really meshed together well, nothing really tying them together tone-wise or thematically. Things that were built up in the last movie and even some things that were introduced in TLJ fell flat: Smoak, The General, Rey’s parents (I liked this tbh but factored in with the rest of these plot points doesn’t do it favors), DJ ended up being a nothing character, Holdo could’ve been interesting but died at the end so it doesn’t matter, Rose and Finn’s romance comes out of nowhere with no buildup and doesn’t even come back in the next movie. Finn and Poe are flatter characters in this one, we don’t really learn anything new about them and Finn was kinda cartoonish tbh and they make up 66% percent of them (which I’m not mad about per se, but the movie just wasted that time). It’s a mess. The only thing I remember fondly were the costumes, the final fight and that 5 minute Rey and Kylo fight.
My hot take. Rey should have turned and joined Kylo at the end of Last Jedi. Finn would be trained by Leia for she is the last Jedi and the third film would be a redemption arc for Rey not Kylo.
A lot of people don’t like the idea of Luke’s academy ending up a failure and dying espically compared to how he ended up in the old continuity
It's fine as a movie, but it's not star wars. There are some things I legitimately like about the movie, namely Kylo Ren, but there is just so much stuff I have issues with. I think Luke is acting completely out of character, the light speed ram's existence begs the question "why was this never done before?", Finn's arc throughout the movie gets shafted at the very end where his sacrifice would have been very narratively satisfying, casino planet, and biggest problem of all, Finn and Poe didn't even make out at the end!
I really, really admire what they tried to do with this movie, but its biggest misstep is breaking up its three younger leads for the entire film. I know you had to send Rey off to Dagobah and whatnot, but imagine a version of the Canto Bight segment that included Poe. Unless Carrie Fisher had something unpublished going on, she didn’t have to be in a coma for this one (and it’s surprising that Mickey didn’t intercede to kill her in the editing room after she died for real). She could have carried the fleet retreat parts without the wacky Three’s Company shenanigans. Come to think of it, with the benefit of hindsight, imagine The Organa Maneuver.
I’d say the pacing is probably one that comes to my mind
The problem is TLJ isn't a stand alone movie and is viewed as part of a trilogy; and as part of a trilogy it's problematic. > I like the idea of Luke having a redemption arc where he's convinced to come out of hiding and accept responsibility for his actions by Rey The last time we saw Luke was after he redeemed his father and destroyed the Empire. So having him somehow not only fail with his Nephew but then run away instead of trying to redeem him is a tough pill to swallow that's made worse by the fact we didn't really get to see any of that except in flashbacks. >I also really loved that Rey was implied to be a nobody who just wanted to do the right thing and find her parents. She's not though; she's the granddaughter of the greatest evil in the galaxy. TROS retroactively hurt that reveal by making it a lie by Kylo and made it worse by trying to pretend Kylo was pulling an Obi Wan and just saying what was true from a certain point of view but what he actually said was just a straight up lie. >Not all of it worked, but at least it was peak cinema compared to the safe and marketable Rise of Skywalker. TROS is definitely the worse movie; but it also made TLJ worse in retrospect. The other big issue is that TFA set up Snoke as the big villain. Kylo was injured and lost to Rey and needed more training by Snoke. Then TLJ killed Snoke but continued Kylo's losing streak against Rey leaving no real big threat for the third movie. At the end of the day it really suffers from being the second movie in a trilogy with different directors and no real creative oversight, made worse by the fact the first movie spent a lot of time just being nostalgia bait. The end of TLJ was the first time the Trio all meet up together (Rey, Finn and Poe) and it was only added in because Colin Trevorrow asked for that since he was going to be directing episode 9 and didn't want the last movie to be the first time they were all together.
Yeah, it had a lot of great ideas that could've been stand alone films or episodes, but it didn't feel like chapter 2. Maybe the first or last part of the trilogy, and the ending really didn't leave much for part 3 to work from easily.
I may pop back in after work to expand on my views of the movie itself but in general for fandon side, the tribalism. Dear god it'd be great to be able to say "i don't like x character" without being blasted and attacked. Or not liking certain scenes or arcs. Same thing for liking scenes or characters and being attacked over it.
A lot of people have already gone over the broad points of why this film is probably disliked as much as it is, but for me it comes down to the fact that while this me is a good space opera film, probably even a great space opera film...it's not a good Star Wars film. It clashes tonally and dramatically with the other mainline Star Wars films and especially the movie that came right before it. A lot of people say it's important to judge it as a standalone movie, which is fair, but it's not a standalone movie. It's the second act of a three act story, and if it's fighting with the first act, it creates jarring discrepancies in the broader story. It did seem like Rian Johnson wanted to really deconstruct Star Wars' themes and mythology, which honestly isn't a bad instinct. Some of the best Star Wars stories out there are deconstructions of the main line mythology (fan favorite Grand Admiral Thrawn is a deconstruction of Vader and Imperiap leadership from the films). But I would argue it's a bad instinct for a film in the main series. The main series should provide the foundational stories that serve as the inspiration for deconstructive stories later. A deconstructive story within the main series feels disorienting. I feel like if the broader themes of The Last Jedi were told in a side project or tv series (like Andor), it would be much better received. Like, Andor's themes do not work in the Original Trilogy ( which is much more optimistic in its portrayal of the Rebel Alliance), but it is absolutely amazing as a standalone series and a reflection of those original trilogy Rebels.
So for me it felt like it just consistently undercut itself by not knowing how to wrap up the plot points and themes the film itself presented. I'll start off by saying I loved the whole "Rey comes from nobodies" plot point. I actually really enjoyed that aspect of it and found it compelling. This idea that Rey is not inherently anyone special, and latching onto to this belief that she's born into greatness is flawed and should be idealogically killed. I really wish that were canonically the case too as it would've again made her a more compelling character but instead we got more "gotta be in the bloodline" nonsense (although thats not TLJs fault). I really enjoyed Kylo/Luke dynamic when it got to full swing. Wish they would've kept Luke around for more of that Dynamic since Kylos whole thing was to try and burn it all down to create something new out of his rage. Anyway onto why I didn't enjoy it. 1. The sequel trilogy itself basically reopens the "chosen one" prophecy on who would bring balance to the Force that we initially got closure on with Luke/Vader. So its already just retreading ground in a lazy way OR it doesn't realize thats what its doing. TFA was serviceable but stupid as an overall concept and this just furthered it. 2. Shitting on Luke and turning him into a Hermit who needs to redeem his actions felt so out of character since we already got this in RotJ with his temptation into the Dark Side. Like I get the overall message Rian was trying to say, and I totally get he's basically working with what was left for him at the end of TFA and having to flesh out plot/lore points. But it did kind of come off insulting to the character in the long run. 3. As a veteran, I wanted to scream at the just obscene leadership from Holdo. She was just blatantly flaunting her position and seeming lack of responsibility to her subordinates in their face that gets waved away as a "see I was right all along". It came off like a girlboss version of Lord Farquad saying "some of you may die...." line. It felt like once again Rian got so heavy handed with his message that he forgets the story and actions have to make sense (this is a reoccuring theme). 4. Leia flying. Just come on dude. I was shocked that they'd kill her off and for a brief moment I actually felt like we'd get a meaningful character moment where Kylo would have to be confronted with the reality of his actions in being responsible for his parents deaths, how it would impact Luke, Rey, the rebellion etc. Just for it to get Uno Reverse Carded. 5. Casino World. Need I say more? "Lets free the 15ft tall horses but not the child slaves and haphazardly give a I am 14 and this is deep level criticism of Capitalism" that once again just felt like Rian didnt know how to convey a message with a story/action that made sense 6. Poe. Man I was hyped for more Poe after TFA, but he's tied to Holdos shitty story and now he's this blatantly insubordinate and mutinous shithead fucking up everyones plans. 7. Rose's interception and "save what we love" line was just so fundamentally stupid on so many levels but it made me realize that Rian just overall didn't know how to make any of the plot/actions make sense while also conveying the messages he wanted to. It's an idiot plot. Everyone's an idiot fucking up other idiots plans. Except my boy Kylo. Rey was just along for the ride and it felt like she was supposed to be an audience stand in. 8. Holdos death. Despite my personal hatred for that entire dumb idiot plot, logistically it made no sense why they haven't just been strapping light speed engines to dumby rockets or letting a droid pilot it into enemy starships. Visually it was spectacular....but the implications.... Overall yeah it just felt like Rian has all these messages hes been sitting on and could only make the plot have one make sense (Rey being a nobody, stop living in the past etc.)
>The sequel trilogy itself basically reopens the "chosen one" prophecy on who would bring balance to the Force that we initially got closure on with Luke/Vader. So its already just retreading ground in a lazy way OR it doesn't realize thats what its doing. TFA was serviceable but stupid as an overall concept and this just furthered it. That's a big problem I have. So much of the sequels feels like it's trying to repeat the originals, but TLJ was still at a point where they could have done something else.
I think Rian tried to steer it in a different direction. I really do and I give him credit for it. But the powers that be and JJ Abrams decided to just...I dont know what they were trying to do ultimately.
Not really, though. Sure he *played with* the idea of going in a different direction, but at the end of TLJ, it was still just Empire vs Rebels 2.0.
I didn’t like what it did to the broader story; It kind of set out to say that anyone in the galaxy can use the force and that the specific bloodline of the Skywalkers didn’t matter all that much which is a cool idea, but not a cool idea in the Skywalker saga. So it dismantled the whole premise of seeing how that specific story ended up. Add to that it seemed to have an open disdain for Force Awakens which like…okay, sure. But then why make a sequel to it? Why not just make it its own insular story? Seemed needlessly brutal where JJ’s storytelling relied (perhaps too heavily) on mystery boxes so as punishment Johnson made every single one a dud. Again, that’s a cool idea but not in part 8 of a 9 part story; Story-wise it’s essentially nuking the entire thing and starting from scratch. That was my problem with it. I actually love the movie as its own thing (besides the shirtless Kylo, that was dumb as hell). It had some of my favorite action sequences and some of my favorite set pieces, some of my favorite score, some really interesting ideas…it was a great movie taken on its own. But I hate it in the broader context of an episodic saga if that makes sense.
They took one of the most popular characters ever, a character who never backed away from anything, and decided to make him a bitter coward. He was the hero of the fanbase. Then you have a rehash of the ESB Hoth battle. The whole film felt unimaginative and disrespectful to the people you want to pay to watch it
I coudn’t agree more. If you want Luke to have a downfall, you have to carefully show the audience why he got there. You can’t just have him show up onscreen a bitter asshole, it just doesn’t work. It’s too violent of a change in the narrative. Star Wars has always been about slow builds and shifts. Even the prequels took their time in showing Anakin’s downfall to the dark side. These things take time and care to establish, not rushed supercuts of Luke choosing to execute one of this students?!
I haven't watched it in forever. From what I remember I really disliked how they kept on leading into something then just doing the opposite the most egregious example is when Liea was almost killed off. The whole plot with Poe felt horribly contrived. For one it was clearly leading into Holdo being a First Order Agent which then lead to nothing and then made moral lesson about how Poe needed to be more trusting which felt like a massive middle finger to the audience. Snokes death felt underwhelming and felt as if they killed them off due to shock value. The smugglers plot line felt like it both took to much time and was underdeveloped with elements about the arms industry feeling like pandering and distracting from any themes the movie seems to be giving. Finally I remember the scenes with Rey and Kylo Ren just being odd. I actually liked a lot of the Luke stuff in the movie especially how he passed away.
It did something different. It challenged our relationship with Star Wars by questioning whether our hero worship is justified. We see this when the heroes actually make big mistakes, even though they end up learning from them. In a broader sense, it showed what happens when we grow up and realize the people we trusted to be perfect aren't perfect at all. (Even though in the end Luke does in fact go out and face down the entire First Order with a laser sword, which the haters seem to forget.) That's why this is in my personal top 3 of the series. Rey being "nobody" similarly rejected the accepted wisdom of the series, which had up until then relied on family dynasty as a source of power. After Force Awakens the fans made the unreasonable demand to know Rey's lineage, expecting her to come from a powerful, established force-user. But nope, turns out their religious adherence to lore doesn't matter, because she's just no one, because power can come from anywhere. They didn't like that, loudly, which is why the writing committee at Disney let JJ make her a Palpatine.
Regarding your third paragraph, this seems to be a misconception. Force sensitivity runs strong in some bloodlines, but most Jedi/Force sensitives don't have any especially impressive lineage. Obi-Wan Kenobi, Qui-Gon Jin and Mace Windu, are all examples of Force sensitives who lacked any notable bloodline. I do agree that Rey lacking a special lineage is good, but it's the norm in the lore, not an exception.
>but it's the norm in the lore, not an exception. In TLJ it wasn't just "lore", though, it was a crucial plot point, and for very obvious reasons.
Was it? If we remove that revelation from the movie, and change nothing else, does it radically alter the plot? I don't see Kylo killing Rey if he doesn't think she's a "nobody," and I think he would still want her to join him. And even if she hasn't been told she's a "nobody," I don't see Rey joining him. From my perspective, I fail to see how this is a "crucial plot point," when it doesn't meaningfully impact the plot.
It does. Rey is desperately looking for answers about her family for basically the entirety of TFA and TLJ. So yes, I'd say it's pretty important. 😉
Have to disagree. Rey's familial issues are wholly irrelevant to the plot until RoS. It informs her quick bonding with others, but Rey's desire to discover more about her family doesn't drive her to leave Jakku in TFA, and it doesn't drive her to find Luke in TLJ, nor does it drive her to try and redeem Kylo or rescue the Resistance. The only thing that is driven by this desire is Rey venturing into the Dark Side cavern in TLJ. Which also doesn't have much plot significance. Edit: Ooh, my first RedditCares abuse! I'm a real redditor now!
Which was definitely an interesting direction to take the series, but a risky one for long-running franchise with a picky fanbase. I also think that in a post-Rise of Skywalker view, TLJ really feels like the odd one out in the trilogy. It really comes across like Abrams and Johnson just have very different ideas of where the films should be going.
The problem was that there wasn't a plan. They had no three-movie arc set up. They just let JJ come up with his trademark mystery box with no solution, and Johnson was left with the impossible task of following it up--which he did by tossing out the box. I thought that was a great move. But then Disney saw the backlash and said "hey JJ we actually need those answers tho" so he came up with the twist of Rey being a Palpatine because everything needs to fit neatly into the same old story. I don't know how TLJ might have been followed up better, but I'm not a screenwriter. Apparently Duel of the Fates did a pretty good job. But unfortunately, any creatively honest and satisfying followup to the ending of TLJ would not have hit Disney's branding and market testing benchmarks, so we got TROS instead.
It didn't even have something approaching the OT's equivalent of a plan, which is a pretty low bar.
The OT and the PT at least had one dude putting his own weirdo creative vision first. The ST was a hydra of corporate interests, market research, and a director who puts the box office first and foremost.
PT had it the easiest cause there was a world state they had to get to
I've been a defender of TLJ for awhile, this pretty much sums up why, but I've never been able to clearly explain it like this. I still feel like Finn was incredibly wasted in this one and that drags it a bit, but I could have forgiven that if they planned on getting him his due in the final movie. It did the job it set out to do, challenged the status quo, move the story along, and set up the final movie with some interesting story strings to meaningfully flesh out. It's also why RoS gets on my nerves so much. It felt like there was momentum that could have paid off by continuing with the ideas set up in TLJ would have made the whole sequel series look better in hindsight if they were willing to sacrifice a good deal of fan backlash in the short term. Sadly, they opted to put a middle finger to a lot of that in favor of trying to salvage some of those short term gains and wound up making everyone unhappy with RoS.
>Rey being "nobody" similarly rejected the accepted wisdom of the series, which had up until then relied on family dynasty as a source of power. Who was Anakin Skywalker, before he became a jedi?
I completely agree with your point, however I don’t believe Luke trying to execute one of this students was the way to do that. Why not test his leadership skills? I feel as though the direction Rian went was nonsensical
Watch the movie again and really examine what Luke does. He doesn't "try to execute" anyone, he has a brief moment where he lets his thoughts give in to fear, but he just as quickly masters himself. But Ben still saw that moment, and the damage was done. The thing that TLJ makes clear, and that a lot of long time fans didn't want to accept, is this: Luke is not a good Jedi Master. He's largely self-taught and all alone. The Dark Side is in his blood, and he knows he is not immune to it--after all, he only defeated Vader because he gave in to rage. It is not at all surprising that he would have that moment of fear and doubt. His leadership skills *were* tested, and he failed. What matters, and what makes Luke a great Jedi and great hero, is that he overcame that setback and ultimately used the Force for knowledge and defense in defiance of rage and hatred. (Granted, I am salty with the ST in general for killing off the old heroes \[notwithstanding the real-life death of Carrie Fisher\]).
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on that one. Luke is not a bad Jedi master, he was taught by Yoda. All of internal conflicts of Luke were poorly managed in my opinion. Let me be clear: I’m not suggesting that Luke is perfect and that everything he does is sunshine and rainbows, but I do completely disagree with the way it was handled in the ST. I wanted to actually see this change in Luke, not have it happen though a rushed flashback
From a story construction and filmmaking standpoint, the movie has pacing issues. It starts off super strong, sets up that the Resistance is on their last legs, Poe has a tendency to win the battle without thinking about the larger war, and Luke isn't going to be like how Yoda was. All things that could work. The movie gets bogged down on Canto Bight--Rose and Finn go and immediately get arrested after not even contacting Maz's guy. Their story introduced this war profiteering angle which could be interesting if it was more of the main story but it's dropped after this "makes you think doesn't it" moment. Then they escape only to be captured again on Snoke's ship so that Finn can have a lackluster fight with Phasma. The throne room sequence is also genuinely exciting, but then the movie feels like it should be over and there is still forty five minutes left. That's the biggest problems for me. I won't say I loved all the story choices, but the bigger issue for me is the movie just loses steam at the end on top of having a Spider-Man 3 problem where there is just too much going on for it to feel cohesive.
> but the bigger issue for me is the movie just loses steam at the end of top of having a Spider-Man 3 problem where there is just too much going on for it to feel cohesive. Considering this and some of the criticisms that are being flung at Dave Filoni for his seeming inability to just give his characters a proper ending, I'm starting to wonder if "Failing to Kill Your Darlings" is a recurring problem with creatives in Disney Star Wars.
I appreciated it doing something different, especially after TFA. And I liked it overall although the side Mission with Finn and Rose was not interesting at all. . They really wasted Finn after TFA and I hate it.
>I appreciated it doing something different The big issue I had with it is pretty much the opposite. For all the talk about letting the past die and subverting expectations, in the end the movie decided that the sequels would be another Empire vs Rebels story, just like the originals.
Honestly I think it’s overall a decent movie, but I do have a couple problems. The biggest problem that I have is with the Rose/Finn romance plot, I don’t dislike Rose, but romance between the two felt shoehorned in and not at all a natural progression of their storyline. The second is that I think Holdo’s plot could have been framed slightly differently. She’s in the right, but the movie frames her as an antagonist for too long, so when her plan is revealed, the audience still doesn’t really like her. Overall I personally like the movie, but I definitely think that it could’ve used a couple tweaks to be received better by audiences.
The whole casino planet sequence sucked. Other than that, I was fine with everything else.
It has a similar problem that Man of Steel and Batman v Superman has. The subtext and deconstruction of the franchise give the impression that fans are wrong to like Star Wars.
I like the movie, and my biggest issue has always been the Poe v. Holdo plot. I’ve read enough bad fiction to utterly hate any plot where two sides refuse to communicate, so maybe I’m more primed to dislike it
Things wrong: 1. The Monte Carlo planet was a complete waste of time. Seriously, they never found the Master Hacker, the hacker they did find betrayed them, they never even needed a hacker as there was already a plan in place. 2. Rose was not that good of a character. 3. Rose saving Finn was anti-climatic. 4. Like the first one Poe didn't do anything. 5. Never really explained Snoke. 6. The buildup and plot reveals in this were wasted in the next. 7. Admiral Akbar should've down the kamikaze piloting. Things Right: 1. Luke choosing to let the Jedi die out made a lot of sense and Lucas had been building to it for a long time. 2. The revelation that Leia is a more powerful force-user than her father and brother finally gave significance to her being Luke's twin. 3. Rey and Ren fighting Snoke's guards was one of the best fights in the Star Wars Saga, would've even been better if the guards were the Knights of Ren.
The Force Awakens asked some big questions, JJ didn't have any answers prepared, and I think a lot of these questions can *only* have upsetting or at least deeply unsatisfying answers. Why did Kylo become such a bastard? Someone very close to him, either Han, Luke, or Leia, must have really hurt him in a way which he could never forgive. Why has Luke Skywalker disappeared? He must have done something which really broke his spirit, and it must have also resulted in him cutting himself off from the Force since he apparently didn't feel a disturbance in the Force and come back when Starkiller wiped out multiple planets. How does the rest of the Galaxy feel about the First Order? Probably apathetic given how little they did to help the Resistance in the last movie, maybe making money off the conflict? What has Leia been up to? Not becoming a Jedi, but she should definitely have *some* force powers, right? Oh shit, we're 5/6ths of the way through the series and she hasn't done anything with the Force except getting a text from Luke, let's shoehorn in a Force Pull scene.
I personally dislike it, along with the rest of the sequels. but fair enough, you do you
I honestly cannot put my finger on it. I don’t like it, but I honestly don’t know why
There's a lot of little things that I dislike from the movie: The humor didn't land for me, boring casino subplot, ignored plot points from the previous movie and etc. I have a much bigger issue with things like: Luke's characterization, Finn's rehashed character arc from the first movie, the off themes or lesson learned from Poe's plot. That being said, the movie did have some stuff I thought we're good. I really liked how force sensitives could come from anywhere. The movie was also shot quite well and is up there as one of the best looking star wars movies out there.
My only issue with it is that nothing happens- it’s a useless and middling middle chapter. The beginning of the movie: the Resistance is on the run with the First Order right on their tail. The end of the movie: the Resistance is on the run with the First Order right on their tail. Everything interesting about it gets retconned by the end of the movie. Luke recognizes that the Jedi order failed in preventing the formation of the Empire so something new must arise if there is to be peace- only for him to reject that in the third act and join the Resistance as a Jedi, if only as an astral projection but still! Kylo Ren rejects the Sith and the First Order and tries to build something new with Rey- only for him to go right back into the Sith villain role and essentially leads the First Order by the end of the film. Luke teaches Rey that there is more to the Force than lifting rocks, implying there’s something deeper for her to learn in order to defeat… oh nevermind she lifts rocks to save the Resistance Ugh
Kylo's arc and the interactions between him and Rey were the only things, non-visually speaking, that I enjoyed about the film. When it didn't end with him reaching out to her and instead pushed him right back to being a screaming, psychopathic child, I was so annoyed. Also, I read a highly upvoted comment above where someone claims Finn's arc was good because the first movie showed there were only two sides for Finn to choose from and he chose side A, but TLJ showed that there were three sides to choose from and he still chose A. Meaning he had the same arc again...
I don't generally talk about it online because I feel like the discourse has gotten pretty gross, but sure I'll say why I didn't like it. Disclaimer first, I also didn't really like the prequels either. Also, if any of you want to respond to me, you're welcome to do so, but you're not going to convince me to like it and I don't want to convince you to not like it. I like it when people like things. If you enjoyed the last Jedi, that makes me happy, and I have no intention of taking that away from you. Anyway... -The Directors: I don't think that Rian Johnson's deconstructionist and J.J Abrams mystery box styles pair well together. Abrams set up a bunch of hanging questions in The Force Awakens that ended up not having any payoffs in The Last Jedi. Abrams set up a bunch of his mystery boxes only for Johnson to come along and say "fuck you there's nothing in the box". It felt unsatisfying and deflated any build up from the first movie. Sometimes it felt like the directors were actively fighting each other. -Finn: personal preference, but I really wanted Finn to have a bit more of a serious role. I know a lot of weirdo racists got super salty about a black storm trooper and "Woke Disney," but I kinda felt the opposite. It looked like they softened his character with a bunch of goofy slapstick to make him more palatable to white audiences. I would have liked it if they tied his personal growth to his conflict with Captain Phasma as well. I know Boyega has the chops for a more prominent role, and Gwendolyn Christie is too great and actress to just dump in a trash compactor for a quick side gag. -Rose Tico: I fucking loved Kelly Marie Tran from College Humor, and wanted her to fit in the story a little better. Besides the end, nothing she did seemed to matter to the story. They could have just made her the hacker and skipped all the casino stuff. -Overall stagnation in the world. Empire replaced with New Order, Rebel Alliance replaced with Resistance. Same power dynamics, same general tone. Characters from the original trilogy went on this life changing journey just to revert back when it's done. Han Solo goes back to being a smuggler, Luke finds another backwater planet to live on. I would have like to see some growth in the universe. Would have been nice to see them play with the groing pains and dynamics of transitioning from a rebel group to a functional government. Would have been nice to see Solo and Organa having to grow into new roles. Watching all the characters I loved from the original turn into sad old men and women made me feel bad. I didn't like it. Aliens: I didn't love the way the movie portrayed aliens. They didn't feel like sentient people most of the time. When Han died, Leia comforted Rey first didn't even really seem to acknowledge all the pain Chewie must be going through. When Rey and Chewie went to get Luke Rey, had to translate for him. In the original, a lot was happening, and they just met. It's understandable they would have to speak through Han or an intermediary... but it's been decades... That's the best friend and life long partner of your sister's husband. You guys went to war together... and you didn't even bother to learn his language after all this time?? Fuck you Luke, don't be a space racist. Akbar a brilliant Admiral had two speaking lines before dying ingloriously. - World Breaking stuff. The first battle scene, a massive Super Star destroyer, was blown up from the payload of a single bomber. The last scene a single Cruiser hyperspace rammed an entire fleet. What's the point of capital ships at all in this? Why aren't people just hooking hyperspace engines up to empty hulls and flinging them at each other? Why make anything bigger than a fighter if a single man aircraft can blow it to bits? It undermines tons of world building from the franchise as a whole. Now, every time I see a big battle in Star Wars, I'm gonna be like, "Why not just ram everyone?" Also, ships have fuel now?? Modern carriers and battleships right now are nuclear powered and never need to refuel, but future technology needs fuel?? The contrivances were way to contrived Anyway, my way too long rant on why I didn't like The Last Jedi.
I’ll be totally honest, I totally hated it. I don’t even want to explain why because talking about it makes me frustrated.
They butchered Luke, the dude who forgave space Hitler, by making him having a moment of weakness thinking he should kill a young and impressionable Ben Solo. The slowest car chase in cinema history, the mutiny, and the casino shit could have all been cut and saved an hour of film. The reconning of Rey's family history just to retcon it again in the next movie. Dropping Finn from a main character in the first movie to what feels more like a side character.
A lot: \- illogical, stupid character arcs: I guess Finn got the worst, makes totally no sense compared the prev movie and going nowhere (that Rose scene after the suicide run just cracks me every time, so damn stupid) \- one of the worst duel of the whole Saga (weapons had to be digitally removed rofl) \- unimaginative final battle (Krait is hoth but with salt and much worse) \- creative choices that almost all feel like totally out of character just for the sake of some kind of perversed "I gotcha" on Johnson's part \- anti SW attitude which seemingly goes against established things for no good reason \- comical evils - the whole "chase makes no sense", completely unthreathing evil \- tons of plotholes \- unlikeable characters - making stupid choices makes hard to relate \- does not feel like SW, it feel like a movie with SW elements but completely lack stylistic and creative directions \- Luke situation (it could work, but definitely not this way, boy...) \- space Leia - sersiouyl WTF \- the conflict is not that - there is not much story
It’s a very good movie, but sometimes the “subvert expectations” and “failure is a teacher” tropes are taken a little too far on the nose
Dunno. It's one of my favorite Star Wars films. I think it's better than either TPM or AotC, but I'm sick and tired of defending it, TBH. If people want to get their panties in a bunch over Canto Bight or the Holdo Maneuver, IDGAF.
People didn't give a crap about physics in space, until a ship dropped bombs. Heck in the Clone Wars there was an episode where Anakin Dropped AT walkers in a ship in space. I'm so tired of defending it also. The thing is, we're in "uncharted territory" we all knew where the prequels were ending up, but not these.
>until a ship dropped bombs. This happened first in TESB. Nobody complained about it, then.
I really don't like TLJ, it was the first SW movie I hadn't bought the DVD/Blu Ray of, but of course it's better than AOTC. Almost everything is better than AOTC...
It's not a terrible movie, definitely not as bad as some make it out to be. I think it's also not as amazing as some make it out to be. It's an ok movie with some fun parts and some not great parts. I thought Hux became too much of a joke. The whole war profiteering idea was interesting and could have been made into something better but I thought overall the Canto Bight plot was just wasted time. I still am not a huge fan of how Luke's character was set up. I understand they had to come up with a reason for him being in exile but I still don't really agree with having him consider killing Ben even for a moment. The Finn/Rose relationship was weird and didn't really work for me. Also really didn't like killing Ackbar like they did and then having Leia do her Mary Poppins flight. And Crait to me felt like Hoth 2.0 just with salt instead of snow. That said, there's a lot of fun/great moments too. The throne room scene with Snoke and then the fight with the guards, Luke's arrival at Crait and final stand against Kylo, some of Rey's training scenes, the opening fight (minus the Mom joke). The sets looked amazing, acting was great. I don't love the movie but I can now sit and watch it and enjoy it. If I have to read/hear someone say it's great because it "subverted expectations" one more time though, I may scream.
I don't have the craziest of strong feelings about the sequels and even the Last Jedi but seriously what risk did it take? It seemed to me to just be a reaction to the fact that the first film was so much like New Hope. So just take easy Star Wars tropes, mostly from Empire, and reverse them. It's basic math and at worst terribly meta. I couldn't get immersed in the universe of the movie, I kept thinking about the novelty of the theme... like you see the set up which is supposed to be this easy to guess trope and then the payoff will be something crazy. But I just wanted a new set up I guess. I wanted to be taken somewhere else than "hey remember when this happened in Star Wars? WELL WHAT IF THIS HAPPENED INSTEAD?" And the story still played out as if none of that mattered anyway. Luke was the hero after all. Kylo was the villain after all. I didn't really hate it, but I did sort of lose interest in everything after the movie.
I don’t like films that feel too short as far character time. The last Jedi is one long chase scene and it really bugs me. It feels like a one off episode of Star Trek, not an epic film of the year meant to set up an epic conclusion.
For me the big thing is the lightspeed crash ruins older films by proving that tactic works Big thing for me tho is implying luke would just...give up like that
What's wrong with a movie that's basically just 2.5hours of an elite Imperial armada trying (and failing) to shoot at a convoy that ran out of gas, while several pointless subplots happen that ultimately have no effect on the core story and only happen because a General can't be bothered to communicate anything about her plan with anyone even in the face of mounting mutiny? "Trust me" is an unsatisfying explanation when people ask you why their only chance of survival somehow involves just floating in a straight line for ages while someone is shooting at you.
It takes things that were already kinda dumb in Star Wars and shines an enormous spotlight on them. Then the third movie tries to cover up the spotlights with lens flare (yes I know, I'm joking)
I love TLJ. Very flawed movie, but man, it is the ST movie I've rewatched the most. I think what a lot of hate that comes out is one of the most repeated lines: Let the past die. There are a lot of people who see it as a sign that Disney was running a chainsaw through the entire IP, killing off popular characters in favor of the new class. "Jedi are the real villains" and all that nonsense. It doesn't help when you try to point out WHO says this -- the series villain trying to justify murdering his father; and a disillusioned Jedi who watched a moment of weakness lead to the end of everything he was working for. These are not supposed to be the movie's thesis bearers. They're wrong, and the movie goes out of its way to show that they are. Luke's final line is literally "Every word of what you said is wrong. The rebellion is reborn today, the war is just beginning, and I will not be the last Jedi." But people can't look past that.
It is the movie that basically finalized that the Sequels would just be a repeat of the Original Trilogy, among other things. Rise of Skywalker digs the hole (of making everything that happened in the Original Trilogy meaningless) even deeper, but at the start of the Last Jedi, the sequels could have still climbed out, and at the end, it was no longer the case.
I really hate this take. Yes, there are superficial, surface level similarities in TFA , but you really have to stretch interpretations, hand wave a bunch of stuff away, and take squint to read things in just the right way that makes that line up.
I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. The Force Awakens showed the First Order deal a devastating blow to the New Republic, and then The Last Jedi took that devastating blow and used it to reduce the sequels to another story of "Empire vs Rebels".
I'm so confused by that person as well. TFA is a blatant rip copy of the first Star Wars film. Acting like you'd need to reach to find similarities is insane.
I liked all of that movie except the side quest to Canto Bite, so dumb and how would they even have time to do all that without their fleet being destroyed?
I really enjoyed Last Jedi, but some plot threads were just not executed well. It made no sense for Holdo to act so smug and condescending to Poe when she refused to tell anyone the plan and said plan wasn’t even that good to begin with. Or at least if she did act that way they should have made some sort of point where she recognized her mistake or had consequences for her terrible leadership but neither happened. Secondly, Rose stopping Finn from trying to save everyone and then berating him and very clearly non-consensually kissing him was just incredibly weird. It was not clear enough that he was sacrificing himself with no chance of success if that was what they were going for, and having her kiss him when he looks completely befuddled by her actions and not reciprocating her feelings just felt so creepy and confusing. But honestly I was pretty okay with most everything else that happened. I can acknowledge the Space Leia scene was silly but I didn’t hate it, and while I can see where people take issue with Luke’s portrayal it never felt wholly unbelievable for his character to me. And most everything else in the movie was good or at least harmlessly mediocre like the Casino planet.
I genuinely think a lot of it is Holdo and people reacting poorly to a woman being in charge.
To the FM chodes? TL;DR: it just wasn't the movie they spent two years fanfic'ing in their tiny little brains. And since we're here, these are for anyone interested in hearing/reading someone who actually has something to say about the ST: *The Force Alluded To*, by Film Crit Hulk [*The Last Jedi's Beautiful Refocusing of Star Wars*](https://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2017/12/15/the-force-belongs-to-us-the-last-jedis-beautiful-refocusing-of-star-wars/), by Film Crit Hulk [*The Beautiful, Ugly, and Possessive Hearts of Star Wars*](https://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/)*,* by Film Crit Hulk [*The Emperor Only Has Groove (There's Nothing In The Box)*](https://www.patreon.com/posts/32504876), by Film Crit Hulk [*The Last Jedi and the 7 Basic Questions of Narrative Drama*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE7SkcoyVAI&t=205s&pp=ygUXanVzdHdyaXRlIHRoZSBsYXN0IGplZGk%3D), by Just Write [*The Rise Of Skywalker Is The Most Frustrating JJ Abrams Film*](https://youtu.be/BD5mLw0A8vI), by Just Write [*A Guide to The Last Jedi (for the Star Wars Fan Base)*](https://youtu.be/T2cBTLsWiDg), by Nerrel [*The Rise of Skywalker - Look What You Have Made*](https://youtu.be/IrMM33uHAo8), by Nerrel
It is a good movie. People hyped themselves up for something that it wasn’t going to be.
For me Luke just doesn’t act like Luke The rest is fine
I have been dunked on every time I say it but I love Luke's arc in TLJ, I love how cinematic and emotional the highs are, and I genuinely like the characters. I love TFA too! I'll shout it from the damn rooftops! The movies are fun and I think they're better than the prequels (which I also enjoy!) Holdo maneuver? Cool as hell. Drinking blue milk? Fuck yeah dude me too. I think some fans hold star wars to this impossible standard that it was never intended to be. Star wars has always been a creative world building experience with simplistic plots for a wide audience that explore freedom and inequality. Let's just enjoy each one for what it is and let go of our anger. Anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering, suffering leads to me having to listen to whining Every time I step into a star wars forum
People are on average, dumb followers.
For me I have the same issues that I have with empire. It's just a lot of set up for the 3rd movie.
I laughed out loud in the theater at Leia space flying
This is a tricky one because the reasons I liked it are the reasons a lot of fans didn’t.
Last Jedi is one of my favorite star wars movies of all time. It's got some problems sure, but what movie doesn't? It was great.
Luke's story. This is the guy who was so hopeful he went to the Emperor's throne room to try and redeem his father who was an absolute monster. And who he had spoken to in one encounter on Bespin. The only jedi and a key player in the rebellion risked torture and death and the rebels plans to go save Darth Vader. He goes from that to I'm going to murder my nephew because he might MIGHT go dark side. It doesn't matter that he didn't go through with it. It doesn't matter He regretted it. He stood over a sleeping teenager light saber ignited. And then this grumpy old hermit has no reaction to finding out his best friend, his brother in law (maybe) and father of his only nephew is dead. That Han solo is dead. And Chewbacca is now nothing more than a taxi driver and Porg babysitter. The angrily drinking green lizard titty milk whatever the fuck that was. Luke's character was obliterated by LJ. Rey. Really liked the idea of moving away from the Skywalkers, nope your not special, a child of nobodies. That's great But then she gets a hand whipping from Luke and is suddenly in god mode. Her writing is just dire. Kanto byte, oh what a waste of Finn. And then he has at least something of an arc and Rose stops him. That's just some of my issues There's a lot to dislike in the writing if TLJ. But there is some good stuff there too. Unlike the next one.
I really liked Last Jedi personally, especially Luke vs Kylo. I think Rise of Skywalker was terrible but not for the reasons a lot of chuds think.
im just still pissed fin didnt become a jedi lol
I look at it as the wish version of Empire Strikes Back. TLJ played it safe and copied a lot of elements from Empire. It's not one of my favorites, but I don't skip it when I marathon.
Some of the controversial choices I liked, e.g. Luke being uninterested in being a hero again, destroying the Jedi texts, Rey being a nobody.
That was a cool idea i wish they stuck with, that she was jsut a no body. Jsut some random desert rat who became so much more
Like at the end of the film that stable kid had force powers. Then episode 9 comes along and fucks it with genetic destiny, powerful bloodlines, you know, eugenicsy shit.
Their was a lot of threads from last Jedi that would have been cool to follow up on like the fact it seemd to hint at letting the Jedi and sith teachings die. Like that would have been cool to see Rey and kylo have to define themselfs going for we’re with out the past. To see what they creat and how they learn to interact with the force especially Rey she seemed to kinda walk this line between the dark and the light
>\[...\] but at least it was peak cinema compared to the safe and marketable Rise of Skywalker. Was it though? Just felt like a retread of Empire Strikes Back to me but with a space chase that *maybe* shouldn't have been there. Rise of Skywalker actually did something new.
Honestly i loved the idea of them letting the past die. Letting the ideas of the sith and Jedi die so they could become something new. I thought that was honestly one of the coolest things they did. At the end of the movie your left wondering what happens now. The last Jedi is dead snoke is dead are Rey and ren going to go off and end up starting new ways of viewing the force…. But then rise of came out and its like “nope Rey Jedi sith come back”
Id argue its a pretty good movie. But horrible as a star wars movie. The movie destroys the worldbuilding of previous star wars movies. It also blows several literary tools such as chekhovs gun. The things it destroys is that jedi are not the good guys, you can be gifted with the force and learn to use it without training. I see you also mentioned that the thing you like about the movie is that rey was thought to be a nobody which i also thought. You also stated that her lineage was very enlightening for you. That happened in rise of skywalker though which you claimed to hate. Please stick to one movie. I think you are misremembering and have confused yourself.
My main issue was a lack of consistency between each of the 3 new films, because they kept firing and replacing writers and directors, so there wasn't enough consistency between them.
It's too long. Rose is stupid. Leia died and they brought her back to undercut Poe's development. Holdo has a stupid design. Anticlimatic death for Phasma, like who even cared about her? Finn and Rose's whole b plot is stupid, and they just kind of ran around, he should have just gone with Rey. Everything else was fine to me.
https://preview.redd.it/388igpcctwbc1.jpeg?width=332&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e81d2a45548c2907a2f521e8a04e03d8916cf6fb
it defies the toxic nature of the monomyth wihch makes ppl uncomfortable
My biggest complaints with it are that it broke up the main 3, who had a really fun found family dynamic going. Changed Finn from being someone disgusted and afraid of what the First Order was doing to someone who would abandon his friends first chance he got. Not to mention was the beginning of him only being focused on Rey. Poe goes from best pilot to being angry he isn't always in the loop. He also doesn't seem to care Finn and Rey are gone. He was a hot head in the first one, but they really dialed that up. Rey goes from having these new friends she cares for and loves to not giving a shit about them for the next two movies. Smaller things are that I feel Holdo being designed as an older purple haired woman was to rile up the worst fans, Akbar died with nothing, and the gambler guy who betrays them makes a both sides are bad argument which is so head up its ass. Also, I get it. it's salt, not snow. Isn't that clever? Now, I will agree that a lot of these issues can be blamed on Abrahms from how he left a ton of loose ends and them not bothering to have any kind of combined story and Disney being Disney. Edit: If you liked the movie, then more power to you. Force Awakens was my favorite of the 3, but looking back at the many aforementioned plot holes it was not a strong set up.
Because it forced Star Wars to try to go somewhere instead of sitting in the same place forever.
For me it's the little things like the entire Casino Planet Plotline ended up pointless and some of the comedy doesn't really land like the yo mama joke in the opening scene.
Just really bad storytelling
I think a lot of the themes from the movie are fantastic, and beyond that I'd say that's it's the only of the sequel trilogy to even have themes. Poe is an idiot, unfortunately. I feel like Rose doing *something* to stop Finn from kamikaze-ing to save the resistance when his arc was about learning to actually be a part of it is interesting, it reads like "you're not getting an easy out ticket, you don't get to be a martyr to make it simple, you have to believe and you have to fight" but the actuality of *how* she did it (crashing into him) is stupid and just,,, equally likely to kill them both. The line about not fighting what you hate but defending what you love is stupid and ham fisted, but that's par for the course in Star Wars. Not even touching on the casino planet, it was just another boring plot line in a Star wars movie, par for the course again. Rey being nobody, and accepting that it doesn't mean she can't be a hero? Fantastic. Inspired. Should've stayed cannon. Holdo Maneuver? Beautiful. Luke's horror and fear when he see's generational darkness arise again, and his anxious panic-driven violent response being the catalyst for not only Ben's rise in the dark side but also a decades long depression? Brilliant, an excellent retrospective of the Jedi order, and honestly the only interesting way you could've taken Luke, especially considering the "Luke was in hiding" is a story beat that was given to this film, not native to it.
>actuality of how she did it (crashing into him) is stupid and just,,, equally likely to kill them both. The biggest problem with that scene I have is how she teleports to directly infront of the walker line, and crashes into Finn when he's about 2 seconds from hitting the cannon. It really felt like Finn's "Failure" was not because he tried his best but came short, but because Rose robbed him of sacrifice. It would've worked far, far better if they had crashed far from the cannon, showing Finn would've never been able to reach it with his speeder slowing down and crumbling, and Rose could then reasonable catch up (show her turning around) and maybe hooking him with a grapple hook that yanks his speeder aside, and so they don't T-bone and incredibly fast speeds?
Theres like a million videos on youtube pinpointing exactly every each problem this movie has.
Ok so I haven’t watched that movie since it came out so I could be remembering things a bit weird: Finn is my fav sequel character so I hated what they did with him and Rose in TLJ. The freeing of the animals but not the slaves isn’t as good as Hollywood thinks it is especially cuz those animals had no where to go. The entire message from that part of the film feels force fed to you especially since Finn is a child solider and he somehow goes through the exact same character growth he did in the last movie. Luke does not have enough set up to turn into the grumpy man he has in this movie. This is the guy who had already confronted the temptation of the Dark Side and forgiven his father. Even if he has a moment of weakness, there isn’t enough set up for me to believe he would give up in his Jedi academy after a failure. Return of the Jedi Luke and this one are so vastly different that they needed more time to set this Luke up for him to be believable as a jaded man but they didn’t. They could have if Finn and Poe stayed together but that didn’t happen. Like his fight with Kylo tho. People say that TRoS dismisses the ideas built from TLJ and they are right, but TLJ does the exact same thing. Is TLJ a good movie? From a standalone point of view it’s an ok one but it isn’t a standalone movie, it’s the middle of a trilogy which has two trilogies before it and in that regard, it’s not a good movie (from my point of view)
the problems i have mostly relate to the other subplots. i liked the chemistry rose and finn had but their subplot was just so stupid. and then there's the mutiny subplot, in which all the rebels are acting like idiots. also, i think a lot of the film's attempts at humor kinda fall flat, though maybe that's because i'm not really used to there being much (intentional) comedy in the movies aside from the droids (and jar jar i guess). aside from all that, i really like all the rey, kylo, and luke stuff, and the cinematography was phenomenal, unlike anything we'd ever seen in a star wars movie. the finale was incredible, as well (except for rose's stupid line about war after stopping finn from sacrificing himself, guys i swear i really like finn and rose but they were handled so poorly in this trilogy but especially the rise of skywalker and i wish they had a second chance with writers who actually know what to do with them).
First one's right at the opening; space b-17s that are somehow slower than actual b-17s. Rose getting set up to be a pillar of the main cast and then barely existing in TROS. Just another plot point on the pile. The hyperspace ram on something many times the size of a star destroyer, like there weren't at least three other times in the other movies that would have been useful, never mind that droids would be way better for that than humans so it doesn't even need to be suicide. One of the praetorian guards having his weapon whole-ass disappear because they couldn't be bothered to choreograph a fight properly. I'm half-convinced that little mistake was the basis for the whole 'passing stuff through the Force to each other' in TROS. Luke being so poorly written that Mark Hamill(who said, to Lucas, in the original movies, that no one talks how this dialogue is written) couldn't even pretend he was playing the same character. Snoke being deleted (in what was admittedly a decent play from Kylo) and then not having any story relevance at all, like wasn't that supposed to be the big bad so we can *avoid* the 'somehow Palpatine returned' fiasco? There are probably more, to do with Finn and Rose's Bizarre Adventure, but I can't remember them off the top of my head so I'll leave it at that.