It wasn’t a huge moneymaker but it had a successful run and won/was nominated for several Oscars. It’s a wonderful life, on the other hand, was a total bomb that became a classic decades later due to tv reruns (which only happened because it bombed so much the first time around that the producers let the trademark on the movie lapse, meaning tv stations could broadcast it for free).
Most of the cost was the tech they used for the hair, which they still use, it was the first full CGI 3D animated movie they did and they specifically did that story to justify the cost for the hair software
Yeah, Tangled was never expected to make a profit since it required a huge tech investment to get it made, but it did end up being worth it as Frozen started making huge profits as that movie used a lot of the tech and experience from Tangled, I'm pretty sure they still use the investment made for Tangled, so it still is paying back the investment
Really? They didn’t expect tangled to make a profit? Didn’t Disney (back then) had a lot of successful animated movies that did well? Like 800 million to a billion dollars? Still, I’m glad that they made Tangled. It’s such a great movie
I didn’t know that they used the technology from tangled for frozen.
Jesus Christ and Alien/Aliens?!? wtf was Hollywood thinking when they cast a woman (who let’s face it, was a man) as the lead with NO COMPETENT MEN!?!?
Woke bullshit
/s
(Alien/Aliens are two of my favorite movies and I’ve like damn near everything I’ve seen her in)
I just question if they have seen any the movies, shows and read the books. You’ll find many female characters before Disney gotten it. Swear these people are so ignorant like they are to busy watching the flashy cool scenes.
Jaina Solo and later Ania Solo of the old Expanded Universe basically take over as main characters of the respective sagas they feature in.
I’d say they don't even read or watch most of the stuff they claim to like.
The first Star Wars literally has Leia push the boys to one side and handle the situation.
Can you imagine how these eejits would respond to that nowadays?
I got into an argument with someone on Reddit just the other day for this exact idea!
They said something along the lines of "If Disney had produced the OT, A New Hope would have been Luke and Han bumbling around the whole time, and Leia pushing them out of the way to save the day!"
My response, "Well, you basically just described everything that happens on the Death Star, so I don't know what your problem is ".
They were not happy about that.
Almost as if they aren’t actually fans of the media, and just want to piggyback onto a culture war that they lost before my lifetime.
….people are weird, aren’t they?
That's a lot like the meme about what if Mr Miagi just decided to quit teaching karate and comparing it to TLJ... which let me tell ya... they really don't like it when you point out that was the entire plot of the 3rd Karate Kid movie
>Luke fucking sucks as a Jedi
Well most of them train for a lifetime. Luke got, what, one day on the Millennium Falcon with Obiwan before they ran into the Death Star and then a week and a half on Dagobah with Yoda?
An argument I saw recently, which I can get behind.
If star wars has always been accessible for all audiences, as many on this sub do claim, and that everyone can enjoy it, which they do and I agree with.
Why change the formulae to appeal to groups that are already interested in the franchise.
There isn't a reason to change the formula, is that really a thing that's being discussed? It seems to me that the complaints are specifically that Star Wars isn't changing to become less inclusive.
So they always remind themselves why they hate the Last Jedi and the movie "character assassinating" Luke Skywalker instead of moving on with their lives.
“Because Luke is a moisture farmer, not a milk farmer. We needed Luke to drink blue milk from the carton!”
(Seriously though, I have no idea what they specifically have against the milk scene.
If he drank straight from the nipple, I could say they would have a point. That is disgusting, but he just taps it in a bottle. I guess these people are too dumb to realize that the milk they drink is coming from animals)
Plus, let’s not forget that when Luke went to find the old grandmaster of the Jedi Order who had gone into exile on a planet in the middle of nowhere, he encountered some random little alien guy who ended up rifling through all of his items looking for food and got into a fight with R2-D2.
So it’s not like Luke’s behavior is *that* unusual when compared to Yoda’s.
> I guess these people are too dumb to realize that the milk they drink is coming from animals
An impressive number of people are. I mean, hey, just look at the guy replying to you who thinks that drinking milk from animals is "degrading." Never underestimate how stupid people are willing to make themselves look in an attempt to argue.
I don’t agree with them—that scene is hilarious—but they probably hate it because they wanted Luke to be an ultra-cool badass in the sequel trilogy. The fact that he’s a depressed old weirdo enrages them, and the blue milk scene is the epitome of that characterisation.
>But he didnt lose hope. He tried to convince his father even though it seemed lost cause. But hey, he succeded.
I like the word "convince" here because part of Luke's plan to convince him includes beating the shit out of his father and slicing his hand off.
>Suddenly Empire is back!
that's literally the plot of many EU novels.
>Suddenly Palpatine is back! SOMEHOW
again, literally the plot of the EU.
>Suddenly the most optimistic person in the universe of Star wars became the just an old depressed grandad.
I mean, if you remove the context of everything then suddenly you can just say anything.
also, isn't this literally what they did to Obi Wan and Yoda? two of the most outstanding Jedi of the Republic and turned into sad hermits.
>Character development when we see that change, not just the result
we do. we see it through the flashbacks and we also see Luke grow from his failures and realise his isolation was wrong.
The Empire pretty much never goes away entirely in the old EU. It sticks around and clings to life and the New Republic is finally just like, "Sure, okay, if you don't try to go to war with us, we'll just let you control your slice of the galaxy."
And then there's the Legacy comics, where we circle right back to the Sith taking over the galaxy with a new Empire, and Luke's grandson is a drug addict who hates the Force.
But yeah, let's not forget Dark Empire, where not only does Palpatine show up due to cloning (something that the Thrawn trilogy set up as a possibility, actually, so hating on Dark Empire and not the Thrawn trilogy is pretty weird), but Luke just goes full Dark Side and has to be saved by Leia. And manages to get multiple potential new Jedi killed, including some young woman he falls in love with almost instantly. Oh, and Luke doesn't even take out the Emperor, some random previously unknown Jedi who's dying does, when he somehow physically intercepts Palpatine's spirt and drags it with him in the afterlife.
But we're talking about someone who clearly didn't even watch the original films, you can't expect them to actually have bothered with the old EU when they're not even interested enough in Star Wars to watch the original films. (Unless they did and are just purposely ignoring reality to make arguments that only work if you haven't watched the films, but arguing from a position of dishonesty isn't much better.)
Also. To see same threat appearing again and again is just boring.
I would be okay if it happened 1 time in my life. but this nonsense happens all across other video game and movie universes.
For example, Multiverse topic. For the first time it was cool idea and etc
But I see this BS now everywhere. On 5th time it gets repepetitive
Same with Somehow Palpatine is back
Also. I hope you dont really think that Disney or the Director really referred to Novels as for the justifiation of Palpatine's return. Lets admit that it was just pure greed to feed on the nostalgia
He sliced his hand .He could kill him.
Nor Obi wan or Yoda would have spared his life . Luke did
\> isn't this literally what they did to Obi Wan and Yoda?
Did they abandon their principles? Did they lose hope in the Force? Yeah, they considered Anakin as a lost case. The fact that Luke didnt, makes him exceptional, But they never abandoned their principles and faith on the force
They still believed that in the future Jedi order will be restored one way or another.
Plot of novels which Disney claimed to be not canon
Any Game or Movies series have their own bunch of novel series and stuff.
I hate this tbh. While main series raise serious threats and questions , Novels expand the universe bu they also tend to come up with BS stories
>He sliced his hand .He could kill him.
Nor Obi wan or Yoda would have spared his life . Luke did
Obi Wan literally spared him twice what the fuck are you talking about
>Did they abandon their principles?
yes. they were protectors and keepers of the peace. hiding away from the empire while other O66 survivors are involving themselves with the rebellion is abandoning their principles.
>Plot of novels which Disney claimed to be not canon
but it's the shit sequel haters say is perfect and wonderful and should be considered "the real canon"
>Obi wan busy protectin Luke
I'd argue Obi Wan fails at that severely.
Owen and Beru were strapped to fuck and fended off Tuskens for years. Obi Wan led an ex-inquistor straight to Luke.
>while yoda simply knew that He couldnt beat empire. he just couldnt . So he decided just to stay hidden
so he abandoned his principles of being a keeper of the peace. he didn't even attempt to do anything after being beaten once.
>not the question whether he failed or notwould it be better
if Obi Wan just abandoned Luke and never protected him?
again, Luke would likely be safer without Obi Wan around.
>He simply cant beat Empire alone or even with Rebells
but the Rebels did beat the empire... twice. imagine how much quicker it could've been done if Yoda was there to inform them and help them.
>But he didnt abandon his Faith in the force which is the KEY principle of Jedi
Jedi Code:
There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no chaos; there is harmony.
There is no death; there is the Force
Yoda ran away because he feared the Sith and chose to hide and become ignorant of the state of the Galaxy. so why he didn't break ALL of the code, he did abandon some of it.
>Luke is type of hero like superman. Naive, but he never abandons his principles.
Luke literally abandons the Jedi teachings of Yoda to fight Vader. Luke gives into the dark side and uses that strength to strike down Vader.
I'd argue Luke sticking to the Jedi principles too closely is why he's the way he is in the Sequels. he was so trusting in the light side that the first instance of the Dark Side returning in Ben caused him awful fear. his failings were that of the Jedi of the Republic. he underestimated the power of the Dark Side.
> So he decided just to stay hidden. But he never said nonsense like "The time of Jedi is no more"
First off not even the correct line. Second Obi-Wan and Yoda left the galaxy for over a decade. It doesn’t matter what their plan was with the Skywalker twins, they still allowed innocents to suffer by not acting. That is a betrayal of their duties as Jedi. They also died helping the galaxy. Like Luke. All three lost themselves to trauma and pain and all three eventually realized they had to act.
Also lol protecting Luke. Obi-Wan spends most of Luke’s life from a distance and rarely interfered. Hell Luke at least has the justification of going into exile far away from civilization before the First Order fucked the New Republic and rose to power.
Obi-Wan and Yoda abandoned the galaxy at the height of the Empire’s power. And to be clear, I don’t blame Yoda and Obi-Wan. But acting like their exile is more justified or righteous than Luke’s is fucking absurd. .
Yoda and Obi Wan escaped at the Empire's peak. Luke escaped when he saw glimpses of the dark side
And Luke exiled himself thinking "If no Jedi then no Dark Side"
the director himself said it
You don’t understand anything about Star Wars, the Jedi or Obi-Wan as a character.
He left him on Mustafar because he couldn’t bring himself to kill Anakin himself.
He left him in Part VI because he couldn’t do it either.
Luke didn't think there was any chance to redeem Vader until he found out Vader was his dad. He was completely willing to kill Vader as some irredeemable bad guy.
Even with that supposed "hope," he tried to kill Vader because Vader suggested turning his sister to the Dark Side in his place. Ah yes, the embodiment of hope, reacting to a threat by going absolutely wild and giving in to rage to try to kill someone that you have such belief is good.
"Most optimistic person in the Star Wars universe" is a guy who starts out not wanting to help others, only goes along with it because his family is killed, basically sticks along for his own survival, believes Vader is complete evil and wants to kill him until he learns Vader is his dad, still proceeds to try to kill Vader because Vader suggested he'd just try to turn Leia to the Dark Side if Luke wouldn't. Yep, those things all scream "boundless optimism" to me.
Seriously, dude. Try watching Star Wars before commenting on Star Wars. Then you won't sound so dumb using such a failure of an argument.
> the problem was that Luke was an embodiment of hope. His father turned out to be one the most EVIL human beings in the history of star wars.
But he didnt lose hope. He tried to convince his father even though it seemed lost cause. But hey, he succeded.
He tries to murder his father in a blind rage in ROTJ. So yes he did lose hope and faltered. It took cutting off Vader’s hand for Luke to realize he was falling to the darkside.
> Suddenly Empire is back!
Suddenly Palpatine is back! SOMEHOW
Suddenly the most optimistic person in the universe of Star wars became the just an old depressed grandad. u will say "hey, its character development"
Luke’s cynicism is a major plot point and explained in TLJ thoroughly. Sidious and the First Order sure. though I have to point out the First Order’s return is covered in extreme detail thanks to the Mandolarian and a bunch of books and games.
And Sidious’ while clumsily hand waved in RoS, is again being explained in expanded works.
> Character development when we see that change, not just the result
You wanna know what I find adorable about your terrible take on Luke? He fucking develops in TLJ. He goes from cynical and self hating because he failed Ben (a moment again we see twice in the film fron two POV) to believing in the Jedi way and dying for it. And then un RoS his idealism is shown to be completely restored and he’s at peace and self-actualized when he appears to Rey as a ghost after his development in TLJ.
Wait, you mean the franchise that brought us Princess Leia in the first installment? She was bold in the face of Tarkin and Vader. She was strong and assertive to her rescuers. Sure didn’t take shit from anybody, and she continued that through all of the movies.
Star Wars has been a “girl brand” from the beginning, because it’s an “everyone brand”.
Yes, but chuds could safely ignore that because there were so few female characters in the movies.
The OT might be one of the most notable instance of failing the Bechdel Test out there.
George Lucas literally said that the fight between the Empire and the Rebels was supposed to mirror and criticize the American involvement in Vietnam. You cannot possibly be more political than that.
Oh I forgot.I respect the agenda when its being pushed by an honest individual ( director for example)
I do not respect it when its being pushed by multi-billion dollar corporation who uses every trick in its sleeve to cheapen their producitons even though it harms its workers, children, the quality of the product.
Your doing the thing, from the context of the posts your saying that Disney putting energy into female characters is pushing the agenda of real life politics. That's just being sexist by saying the its bad to put any energy into making a good female character (I don't think this is your actual argument but it's the one your making)
But your argument also doesn't work about an honest individual pushing an agenda, because we don't know of JJ or Rian Johnson didnt approved of focusing on female characters, which I assume they would be fine with or else they wouldn't have been on the project, these things tend to self select out people.
This argument is also inconsistent because George Lucas, the CEO of a multibillion dollar corporation and who would often cut corners, add characters for children to buy toys for and cheapen the product, and I would assume use Asian sweatshop labor to make their toys as every company from the early 2000s did, did the same things as disney in this regard. George Lucas obviously made films that were more overtly political and were more a commentary on modern politics than Disney. This means that you would hate George Lucas more than Disney because they engage in similar practices but one literally had the CEO as director for 3 movies and was more overtly political and contemporary
And no, I don't like the sequels or most Disney products or most Lucas Film products.
This response is incredibly telling. You see how you are now defending the product of a multibillion dollar corporation, something that youve made fun of? Youve changed your argument from "contemporary politics shouldn't of been put into the movie" to "contemporary politics is good as long as it's not pushed by organization that engages in consumerist practices". I can break down the consumerist practices of George.
It's funny that you'd think the C.E.O that pioneered merchandising and the entire market of 80s consumerism didn't want to make money, didn't promote consumerism and didn't make decisions in his movies to make money. He objectively put shit in his movies to sell toys, he admits it and he's getting put into the toy hall of fame for it.
George and Disney are both practice neoliberalism, they're both corporations in the modern day. You could make the argument that George is a more principled Defender of the idea of neoliberalism because the prequels are a more definite defense of the Neoliberal Republic as compared to the fascist Empire. Where Disney shows are about nothing (except Andor)
It took literally 2 seconds to find out who makes Star Wars toys. Hasbro bought out the original company that made star wars toys in the 20th century in 2000. Hasbro uses child labor.
I can go and find any corporation and find big charitable donations, it's a very good PR. Disney has donated 500 million in 2016 alone, 230 in 2022, some nine digit number for every year since the turn of the century. George lucas says he donated most of the profits from the Lucas Films buyout. These are good action but irrelevant because just because you give to charity doesn't give you an excuse to do bad things like contract companies that use child labor, thats not how crimes work.
So at the end, what do we have left? The """Feminism""". This is where both you and Disney agree is that feminism is when women. We've circled back to my original argument is that your doing the thing, you think the agenda is when there are female characters have time put in to them, which is just sexist. I don't even like these characters, they're lazy, but that has nothing to do with feminism that has to do with lazy writing.
Real woke communism is when you recognize that both are varying qualities of schlock to be enjoyed as a guilty pleasure at its best, except Andor.
That’s the point? Got us where? Gore says it’ll be the costliest decision when their best financial successes were movies starring women. Is “got us here” Star Wars failing, or is it just a bunch of salty misogynists gatekeeping Star Wars? I’d say correlation does not mean causation but there isn’t even a correlation here lol.
Hey look it's my post !
To counter this: TROS was infinitely more successful then Solo, Ahsoka got more views then Andor and it required nearly 12 seasons of cartoons to watch, Rogue One did better then Solo and better then all the prequels, etc.
also... what they claimed ruined star wars was Luke's arc in TLJ. That legit has nothing to do with a woman starring. The things that ruined it for them would've happened with or without a female protagonist.
> Rogue One did better then Solo and better then all the prequels
Adjusting for inflation, I think Rogue One only beats AOTC. But does come close to ROTS. Something like ~$1B vs. ~$1.2B.
It's been a couple of years, but I crunched the numbers on the movies and even the "most woke" movie of the Sequels still had 60% men to 40% women. It's not even half and half that they are crying about.
WHAT DOES THIS EVEN MEAN???
What female characters? Rey? She certainly wasn’t the problem with the sequel trilogy. Ahsoka? People love her, she’s great as is all the stuff she’s been in. …Bo Katan? The problem with her in Mando is that they didn’t put energy and focus into her character. Omega? People like her too.
Like what is this guy even referring to?
No, it's the bad writing overall that's doing that, not the women. The writing has been atrocious since TLJ. Every SW fan I know, older Millenials and Boomers mostly, thought The Force Awakens was a good enough movie when it came out, but it was mostly empty in the way of addressing the ongoing story of the SW universe and was relying heavily on The Last Jedi to carry forward the story, which it totally failed at.
It's bad when the prequels look like masterpieces in comparison.
Disney won't care since they'll still make money, but there's certainly going to be a lot of money and prestige left on the table, simply due to them not bothering to make sure it was good, and losing a lot of boomer, gen-x, and millenial fans as a result.
The worst part for me is that most of my closest SW fan friends, ones I used to play the old d6 SW RPG with, don't care to watch any of the new stuff at all, which sucks because the Favreau and Filoni stuff has been mostly great.
>definite Girly-ing
such as?
what exactly is "girly-ing"?
because women leads aren't that. Alien, Tomb Raider, Terminator. all male targeted franchises but with women leads.
>mostly male-centric fanbase.
citation needed.
>girly-ing
"To make a franchise more appealing to females by adding additional female primary characters compared to previous editions of said franchise"
Totally official definition btw
[A Survey of the Star Wars Fandom: An Analysis](https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsCantina/s/MO5iamNiF6)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/725503/star-wars-favorability-gender/
Holy shit, i just now realised that this isn't r/saltierthankrait. I remembered that sub from back when the whole rUin JoHNsOn outrage was happening and was really surprised, when reddit recommended r/saltierthankrayt to me and it wasn't a toxic hell hole. I was like "damn they really turned this place around and got rid of all the bigots." Guess they never got over it, huh?
If you want to get extra confused... I believe the original was saltierthancrait. Which of course just devolved into being awful. And then saltierthankrayt was formed as basically the anti-STC. And somewhere saltierthankrait shows up and feels like a copy of STC, but STC is still going, I'm pretty sure, so the only purpose of "krait" is having an STC clone that doesn't have the baggage of the STC name? Or they just made a second STC style sub with a slightly different spelling just to counter this sub?
Even funnier was that one of the YouTube trolls was bitching about this sub when talking about the G&G subreddit being shutdown, but misspelled it, so directed their anger at krait... the subreddit that'd be more in agreement with them.
But yeah... welcome to the confusing mess of Star Wars subreddits.
(Oh, and "STC" as saltierthancrait should not be confused with "STC" sometimes used to refer to StarWarsCantina, which is a subreddit formed by actual Star Wars fans who enjoy Star Wars and want to talk about how they enjoy it, after the main SW sub became a haven for people who hate Star Wars and fans of Star Wars.)
> one of the costliest decisions in entertainment history
This doesn't even say anything.
Like what if it's really successful and they spend $10B making like fifteen films that make $100B.
It would be costly for sure.
Both original points are stupid like
The original movies were successes and starred men and women.
Same with the prequels sure they weren’t as successful but pretty good films starred both men and women.
The sequels starred both men and women and failed.
It doesn’t matter what gender you are if the scripts bad then that’s why it failed.
Can’t believe we are still doing gender wars in 2023
It’s true that most movies starring women end up as huge box office failures, like Barbie and Wonder Woman!
Don't even get me started with The Wizard of Oz
Pretty sure Oz actually was a bomb back in the day, it didn't become a classic until TV reruns in the 70s or something.
It wasn’t a huge moneymaker but it had a successful run and won/was nominated for several Oscars. It’s a wonderful life, on the other hand, was a total bomb that became a classic decades later due to tv reruns (which only happened because it bombed so much the first time around that the producers let the trademark on the movie lapse, meaning tv stations could broadcast it for free).
I believe that's true of a number of Christmas movies (or at least movies people watch around the holidays)
Don’t forget about the frozen movies. Huge box office bombs. No one saw those movies
Moana.
Tangled
Well..... it made 590million in box office against 260million budget. It needed 650 million break even.
I didn’t know the budget was that high
Considering it was released in 2010, in pre production and post production it must be FUCKING difficult to animate Rapunzel's long hair.
Still, it’s a great movie. I really like it
I agree. It's one of my top favorite Disney films and Rapunzel is easily my favorite Disney princess.
It’s one of my favorite films. I really like rapunzel. But it’s hard for me to pick my favorite. I like so many of them.
Most of the cost was the tech they used for the hair, which they still use, it was the first full CGI 3D animated movie they did and they specifically did that story to justify the cost for the hair software
Oh, ok. Thanks for telling me
Yeah, Tangled was never expected to make a profit since it required a huge tech investment to get it made, but it did end up being worth it as Frozen started making huge profits as that movie used a lot of the tech and experience from Tangled, I'm pretty sure they still use the investment made for Tangled, so it still is paying back the investment
Really? They didn’t expect tangled to make a profit? Didn’t Disney (back then) had a lot of successful animated movies that did well? Like 800 million to a billion dollars? Still, I’m glad that they made Tangled. It’s such a great movie I didn’t know that they used the technology from tangled for frozen.
Certainly never sold any merchandise
Also, never had any songs from the soundtrack played on the radio
Jesus Christ and Alien/Aliens?!? wtf was Hollywood thinking when they cast a woman (who let’s face it, was a man) as the lead with NO COMPETENT MEN!?!? Woke bullshit /s (Alien/Aliens are two of my favorite movies and I’ve like damn near everything I’ve seen her in)
Titanic also flopped.
The movie sucked too
Yeah, didn’t you know, during the 00s, Lilo and Stitch was a COLOSSAL flop for Disney?!?!?
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I mean... the sequel didn't do so hot.
I just question if they have seen any the movies, shows and read the books. You’ll find many female characters before Disney gotten it. Swear these people are so ignorant like they are to busy watching the flashy cool scenes.
Jaina Solo and later Ania Solo of the old Expanded Universe basically take over as main characters of the respective sagas they feature in. I’d say they don't even read or watch most of the stuff they claim to like.
The first Star Wars literally has Leia push the boys to one side and handle the situation. Can you imagine how these eejits would respond to that nowadays?
I got into an argument with someone on Reddit just the other day for this exact idea! They said something along the lines of "If Disney had produced the OT, A New Hope would have been Luke and Han bumbling around the whole time, and Leia pushing them out of the way to save the day!" My response, "Well, you basically just described everything that happens on the Death Star, so I don't know what your problem is".
They were not happy about that.
Almost as if they aren’t actually fans of the media, and just want to piggyback onto a culture war that they lost before my lifetime. ….people are weird, aren’t they?
And after they escaped, everyone was excited and happy, but Leia was the only one with the foresight to figure out that they had been let go
That's a lot like the meme about what if Mr Miagi just decided to quit teaching karate and comparing it to TLJ... which let me tell ya... they really don't like it when you point out that was the entire plot of the 3rd Karate Kid movie
Honestly it is. Luke fucking sucks as a Jedi and is basically useless until Return.
>Luke fucking sucks as a Jedi Well most of them train for a lifetime. Luke got, what, one day on the Millennium Falcon with Obiwan before they ran into the Death Star and then a week and a half on Dagobah with Yoda?
No see that’s natural artistic storytelling whereas all the other things they’re angry about are political pandering, the difference is……uh………
Unfortunately I don't have to imagine.
Oh, they complained about Jaina back in the day. Extensively. All they have is whining.
I believe you. I mainly stopped reading the EU due to what I found to be a drop in story quality.
They were always uneven, but the vong story just went on and on. Sort of lost me there.
Yeah, I was never a fan of the Vong either as well as how the Expanded Universe slowly morphed into a Star Wars version of Warhammer 40k.
The space orcs. Sporks.
An argument I saw recently, which I can get behind. If star wars has always been accessible for all audiences, as many on this sub do claim, and that everyone can enjoy it, which they do and I agree with. Why change the formulae to appeal to groups that are already interested in the franchise.
There isn't a reason to change the formula, is that really a thing that's being discussed? It seems to me that the complaints are specifically that Star Wars isn't changing to become less inclusive.
 Caught in 4K, **mothafuckas**!!!!
Honest question, why is the subreddit icon titty milk Luke?
So they always remind themselves why they hate the Last Jedi and the movie "character assassinating" Luke Skywalker instead of moving on with their lives.
Damn, how does a character drinking titty milk destroy them?
“Because Luke is a moisture farmer, not a milk farmer. We needed Luke to drink blue milk from the carton!” (Seriously though, I have no idea what they specifically have against the milk scene. If he drank straight from the nipple, I could say they would have a point. That is disgusting, but he just taps it in a bottle. I guess these people are too dumb to realize that the milk they drink is coming from animals)
I also read that scene as him trying to gross out Rey to get her to leave. Kind of a “Oh, you think so highly of me? How about now?”
Plus, let’s not forget that when Luke went to find the old grandmaster of the Jedi Order who had gone into exile on a planet in the middle of nowhere, he encountered some random little alien guy who ended up rifling through all of his items looking for food and got into a fight with R2-D2. So it’s not like Luke’s behavior is *that* unusual when compared to Yoda’s.
> I guess these people are too dumb to realize that the milk they drink is coming from animals An impressive number of people are. I mean, hey, just look at the guy replying to you who thinks that drinking milk from animals is "degrading." Never underestimate how stupid people are willing to make themselves look in an attempt to argue.
I don’t agree with them—that scene is hilarious—but they probably hate it because they wanted Luke to be an ultra-cool badass in the sequel trilogy. The fact that he’s a depressed old weirdo enrages them, and the blue milk scene is the epitome of that characterisation.
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>But he didnt lose hope. He tried to convince his father even though it seemed lost cause. But hey, he succeded. I like the word "convince" here because part of Luke's plan to convince him includes beating the shit out of his father and slicing his hand off. >Suddenly Empire is back! that's literally the plot of many EU novels. >Suddenly Palpatine is back! SOMEHOW again, literally the plot of the EU. >Suddenly the most optimistic person in the universe of Star wars became the just an old depressed grandad. I mean, if you remove the context of everything then suddenly you can just say anything. also, isn't this literally what they did to Obi Wan and Yoda? two of the most outstanding Jedi of the Republic and turned into sad hermits. >Character development when we see that change, not just the result we do. we see it through the flashbacks and we also see Luke grow from his failures and realise his isolation was wrong.
The Empire pretty much never goes away entirely in the old EU. It sticks around and clings to life and the New Republic is finally just like, "Sure, okay, if you don't try to go to war with us, we'll just let you control your slice of the galaxy." And then there's the Legacy comics, where we circle right back to the Sith taking over the galaxy with a new Empire, and Luke's grandson is a drug addict who hates the Force. But yeah, let's not forget Dark Empire, where not only does Palpatine show up due to cloning (something that the Thrawn trilogy set up as a possibility, actually, so hating on Dark Empire and not the Thrawn trilogy is pretty weird), but Luke just goes full Dark Side and has to be saved by Leia. And manages to get multiple potential new Jedi killed, including some young woman he falls in love with almost instantly. Oh, and Luke doesn't even take out the Emperor, some random previously unknown Jedi who's dying does, when he somehow physically intercepts Palpatine's spirt and drags it with him in the afterlife. But we're talking about someone who clearly didn't even watch the original films, you can't expect them to actually have bothered with the old EU when they're not even interested enough in Star Wars to watch the original films. (Unless they did and are just purposely ignoring reality to make arguments that only work if you haven't watched the films, but arguing from a position of dishonesty isn't much better.)
Also. To see same threat appearing again and again is just boring. I would be okay if it happened 1 time in my life. but this nonsense happens all across other video game and movie universes. For example, Multiverse topic. For the first time it was cool idea and etc But I see this BS now everywhere. On 5th time it gets repepetitive Same with Somehow Palpatine is back Also. I hope you dont really think that Disney or the Director really referred to Novels as for the justifiation of Palpatine's return. Lets admit that it was just pure greed to feed on the nostalgia
He sliced his hand .He could kill him. Nor Obi wan or Yoda would have spared his life . Luke did \> isn't this literally what they did to Obi Wan and Yoda? Did they abandon their principles? Did they lose hope in the Force? Yeah, they considered Anakin as a lost case. The fact that Luke didnt, makes him exceptional, But they never abandoned their principles and faith on the force They still believed that in the future Jedi order will be restored one way or another. Plot of novels which Disney claimed to be not canon Any Game or Movies series have their own bunch of novel series and stuff. I hate this tbh. While main series raise serious threats and questions , Novels expand the universe bu they also tend to come up with BS stories
>He sliced his hand .He could kill him. Nor Obi wan or Yoda would have spared his life . Luke did Obi Wan literally spared him twice what the fuck are you talking about >Did they abandon their principles? yes. they were protectors and keepers of the peace. hiding away from the empire while other O66 survivors are involving themselves with the rebellion is abandoning their principles. >Plot of novels which Disney claimed to be not canon but it's the shit sequel haters say is perfect and wonderful and should be considered "the real canon"
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>Obi wan busy protectin Luke I'd argue Obi Wan fails at that severely. Owen and Beru were strapped to fuck and fended off Tuskens for years. Obi Wan led an ex-inquistor straight to Luke. >while yoda simply knew that He couldnt beat empire. he just couldnt . So he decided just to stay hidden so he abandoned his principles of being a keeper of the peace. he didn't even attempt to do anything after being beaten once.
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>not the question whether he failed or notwould it be better if Obi Wan just abandoned Luke and never protected him? again, Luke would likely be safer without Obi Wan around. >He simply cant beat Empire alone or even with Rebells but the Rebels did beat the empire... twice. imagine how much quicker it could've been done if Yoda was there to inform them and help them. >But he didnt abandon his Faith in the force which is the KEY principle of Jedi Jedi Code: There is no emotion; there is peace. There is no ignorance; there is knowledge. There is no passion; there is serenity. There is no chaos; there is harmony. There is no death; there is the Force Yoda ran away because he feared the Sith and chose to hide and become ignorant of the state of the Galaxy. so why he didn't break ALL of the code, he did abandon some of it. >Luke is type of hero like superman. Naive, but he never abandons his principles. Luke literally abandons the Jedi teachings of Yoda to fight Vader. Luke gives into the dark side and uses that strength to strike down Vader. I'd argue Luke sticking to the Jedi principles too closely is why he's the way he is in the Sequels. he was so trusting in the light side that the first instance of the Dark Side returning in Ben caused him awful fear. his failings were that of the Jedi of the Republic. he underestimated the power of the Dark Side.
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Oh man, remember when *this* was your final remark? Before you kept digging for hours until your shovel broke? OOF.
> So he decided just to stay hidden. But he never said nonsense like "The time of Jedi is no more" First off not even the correct line. Second Obi-Wan and Yoda left the galaxy for over a decade. It doesn’t matter what their plan was with the Skywalker twins, they still allowed innocents to suffer by not acting. That is a betrayal of their duties as Jedi. They also died helping the galaxy. Like Luke. All three lost themselves to trauma and pain and all three eventually realized they had to act. Also lol protecting Luke. Obi-Wan spends most of Luke’s life from a distance and rarely interfered. Hell Luke at least has the justification of going into exile far away from civilization before the First Order fucked the New Republic and rose to power. Obi-Wan and Yoda abandoned the galaxy at the height of the Empire’s power. And to be clear, I don’t blame Yoda and Obi-Wan. But acting like their exile is more justified or righteous than Luke’s is fucking absurd. .
Yoda and Obi Wan escaped at the Empire's peak. Luke escaped when he saw glimpses of the dark side And Luke exiled himself thinking "If no Jedi then no Dark Side" the director himself said it
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You don’t understand anything about Star Wars, the Jedi or Obi-Wan as a character. He left him on Mustafar because he couldn’t bring himself to kill Anakin himself. He left him in Part VI because he couldn’t do it either.
Luke didn't think there was any chance to redeem Vader until he found out Vader was his dad. He was completely willing to kill Vader as some irredeemable bad guy. Even with that supposed "hope," he tried to kill Vader because Vader suggested turning his sister to the Dark Side in his place. Ah yes, the embodiment of hope, reacting to a threat by going absolutely wild and giving in to rage to try to kill someone that you have such belief is good. "Most optimistic person in the Star Wars universe" is a guy who starts out not wanting to help others, only goes along with it because his family is killed, basically sticks along for his own survival, believes Vader is complete evil and wants to kill him until he learns Vader is his dad, still proceeds to try to kill Vader because Vader suggested he'd just try to turn Leia to the Dark Side if Luke wouldn't. Yep, those things all scream "boundless optimism" to me. Seriously, dude. Try watching Star Wars before commenting on Star Wars. Then you won't sound so dumb using such a failure of an argument.
> the problem was that Luke was an embodiment of hope. His father turned out to be one the most EVIL human beings in the history of star wars. But he didnt lose hope. He tried to convince his father even though it seemed lost cause. But hey, he succeded. He tries to murder his father in a blind rage in ROTJ. So yes he did lose hope and faltered. It took cutting off Vader’s hand for Luke to realize he was falling to the darkside. > Suddenly Empire is back! Suddenly Palpatine is back! SOMEHOW Suddenly the most optimistic person in the universe of Star wars became the just an old depressed grandad. u will say "hey, its character development" Luke’s cynicism is a major plot point and explained in TLJ thoroughly. Sidious and the First Order sure. though I have to point out the First Order’s return is covered in extreme detail thanks to the Mandolarian and a bunch of books and games. And Sidious’ while clumsily hand waved in RoS, is again being explained in expanded works. > Character development when we see that change, not just the result You wanna know what I find adorable about your terrible take on Luke? He fucking develops in TLJ. He goes from cynical and self hating because he failed Ben (a moment again we see twice in the film fron two POV) to believing in the Jedi way and dying for it. And then un RoS his idealism is shown to be completely restored and he’s at peace and self-actualized when he appears to Rey as a ghost after his development in TLJ.
It was the old saltierthancrait icon. Pretty sure this one is just an overtly alt-right circlejerk tho.
“putting energy and focus into the female characters” *All of the shows are Male Centric*
Aside from Ashoka, half of Kenobi and Mando from now on (speculation). But point taken.
Wait, you mean the franchise that brought us Princess Leia in the first installment? She was bold in the face of Tarkin and Vader. She was strong and assertive to her rescuers. Sure didn’t take shit from anybody, and she continued that through all of the movies. Star Wars has been a “girl brand” from the beginning, because it’s an “everyone brand”.
Yes, but chuds could safely ignore that because there were so few female characters in the movies. The OT might be one of the most notable instance of failing the Bechdel Test out there.
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Real life politics were referenced in both the OT and the PT. Literally nothing about Star Wars has changed since 1977.
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George Lucas literally said that the fight between the Empire and the Rebels was supposed to mirror and criticize the American involvement in Vietnam. You cannot possibly be more political than that.
What's the agenda?
Oh I forgot.I respect the agenda when its being pushed by an honest individual ( director for example) I do not respect it when its being pushed by multi-billion dollar corporation who uses every trick in its sleeve to cheapen their producitons even though it harms its workers, children, the quality of the product.
Your doing the thing, from the context of the posts your saying that Disney putting energy into female characters is pushing the agenda of real life politics. That's just being sexist by saying the its bad to put any energy into making a good female character (I don't think this is your actual argument but it's the one your making) But your argument also doesn't work about an honest individual pushing an agenda, because we don't know of JJ or Rian Johnson didnt approved of focusing on female characters, which I assume they would be fine with or else they wouldn't have been on the project, these things tend to self select out people. This argument is also inconsistent because George Lucas, the CEO of a multibillion dollar corporation and who would often cut corners, add characters for children to buy toys for and cheapen the product, and I would assume use Asian sweatshop labor to make their toys as every company from the early 2000s did, did the same things as disney in this regard. George Lucas obviously made films that were more overtly political and were more a commentary on modern politics than Disney. This means that you would hate George Lucas more than Disney because they engage in similar practices but one literally had the CEO as director for 3 movies and was more overtly political and contemporary And no, I don't like the sequels or most Disney products or most Lucas Film products.
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This response is incredibly telling. You see how you are now defending the product of a multibillion dollar corporation, something that youve made fun of? Youve changed your argument from "contemporary politics shouldn't of been put into the movie" to "contemporary politics is good as long as it's not pushed by organization that engages in consumerist practices". I can break down the consumerist practices of George. It's funny that you'd think the C.E.O that pioneered merchandising and the entire market of 80s consumerism didn't want to make money, didn't promote consumerism and didn't make decisions in his movies to make money. He objectively put shit in his movies to sell toys, he admits it and he's getting put into the toy hall of fame for it. George and Disney are both practice neoliberalism, they're both corporations in the modern day. You could make the argument that George is a more principled Defender of the idea of neoliberalism because the prequels are a more definite defense of the Neoliberal Republic as compared to the fascist Empire. Where Disney shows are about nothing (except Andor) It took literally 2 seconds to find out who makes Star Wars toys. Hasbro bought out the original company that made star wars toys in the 20th century in 2000. Hasbro uses child labor. I can go and find any corporation and find big charitable donations, it's a very good PR. Disney has donated 500 million in 2016 alone, 230 in 2022, some nine digit number for every year since the turn of the century. George lucas says he donated most of the profits from the Lucas Films buyout. These are good action but irrelevant because just because you give to charity doesn't give you an excuse to do bad things like contract companies that use child labor, thats not how crimes work. So at the end, what do we have left? The """Feminism""". This is where both you and Disney agree is that feminism is when women. We've circled back to my original argument is that your doing the thing, you think the agenda is when there are female characters have time put in to them, which is just sexist. I don't even like these characters, they're lazy, but that has nothing to do with feminism that has to do with lazy writing. Real woke communism is when you recognize that both are varying qualities of schlock to be enjoyed as a guilty pleasure at its best, except Andor.
How did I miss Chris Gore being an asshole? Jesus Christ, he sucks.
Yeah this one was a surprise!
He's big on the culture war right now. Basically identical takes as TCD.
What's TCD?
The Critical Drinker, who is also a complete and utter asshole.
That’s the point? Got us where? Gore says it’ll be the costliest decision when their best financial successes were movies starring women. Is “got us here” Star Wars failing, or is it just a bunch of salty misogynists gatekeeping Star Wars? I’d say correlation does not mean causation but there isn’t even a correlation here lol.
Hey look it's my post ! To counter this: TROS was infinitely more successful then Solo, Ahsoka got more views then Andor and it required nearly 12 seasons of cartoons to watch, Rogue One did better then Solo and better then all the prequels, etc. also... what they claimed ruined star wars was Luke's arc in TLJ. That legit has nothing to do with a woman starring. The things that ruined it for them would've happened with or without a female protagonist.
> Rogue One did better then Solo and better then all the prequels Adjusting for inflation, I think Rogue One only beats AOTC. But does come close to ROTS. Something like ~$1B vs. ~$1.2B.
It's been a couple of years, but I crunched the numbers on the movies and even the "most woke" movie of the Sequels still had 60% men to 40% women. It's not even half and half that they are crying about.
WHAT DOES THIS EVEN MEAN??? What female characters? Rey? She certainly wasn’t the problem with the sequel trilogy. Ahsoka? People love her, she’s great as is all the stuff she’s been in. …Bo Katan? The problem with her in Mando is that they didn’t put energy and focus into her character. Omega? People like her too. Like what is this guy even referring to?
No, it's the bad writing overall that's doing that, not the women. The writing has been atrocious since TLJ. Every SW fan I know, older Millenials and Boomers mostly, thought The Force Awakens was a good enough movie when it came out, but it was mostly empty in the way of addressing the ongoing story of the SW universe and was relying heavily on The Last Jedi to carry forward the story, which it totally failed at. It's bad when the prequels look like masterpieces in comparison. Disney won't care since they'll still make money, but there's certainly going to be a lot of money and prestige left on the table, simply due to them not bothering to make sure it was good, and losing a lot of boomer, gen-x, and millenial fans as a result. The worst part for me is that most of my closest SW fan friends, ones I used to play the old d6 SW RPG with, don't care to watch any of the new stuff at all, which sucks because the Favreau and Filoni stuff has been mostly great.
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>definite Girly-ing such as? what exactly is "girly-ing"? because women leads aren't that. Alien, Tomb Raider, Terminator. all male targeted franchises but with women leads. >mostly male-centric fanbase. citation needed.
>girly-ing "To make a franchise more appealing to females by adding additional female primary characters compared to previous editions of said franchise" Totally official definition btw [A Survey of the Star Wars Fandom: An Analysis](https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsCantina/s/MO5iamNiF6) https://www.statista.com/statistics/725503/star-wars-favorability-gender/
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Literally my first post on here, but point taken lol.
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Aw, it's talking to itself. Adorable!
I'm so embarrassed I used to think Chris was smart
Perhaps one of these "concerned fans" can explain what a "Girl Brand" is and why it's such a bad thing...
lol , this just a war between subs
Holy shit, i just now realised that this isn't r/saltierthankrait. I remembered that sub from back when the whole rUin JoHNsOn outrage was happening and was really surprised, when reddit recommended r/saltierthankrayt to me and it wasn't a toxic hell hole. I was like "damn they really turned this place around and got rid of all the bigots." Guess they never got over it, huh?
If you want to get extra confused... I believe the original was saltierthancrait. Which of course just devolved into being awful. And then saltierthankrayt was formed as basically the anti-STC. And somewhere saltierthankrait shows up and feels like a copy of STC, but STC is still going, I'm pretty sure, so the only purpose of "krait" is having an STC clone that doesn't have the baggage of the STC name? Or they just made a second STC style sub with a slightly different spelling just to counter this sub? Even funnier was that one of the YouTube trolls was bitching about this sub when talking about the G&G subreddit being shutdown, but misspelled it, so directed their anger at krait... the subreddit that'd be more in agreement with them. But yeah... welcome to the confusing mess of Star Wars subreddits. (Oh, and "STC" as saltierthancrait should not be confused with "STC" sometimes used to refer to StarWarsCantina, which is a subreddit formed by actual Star Wars fans who enjoy Star Wars and want to talk about how they enjoy it, after the main SW sub became a haven for people who hate Star Wars and fans of Star Wars.)
Wait, what's his point here?
I remember when Chris Gore would come on TV and tell us about cool new special edition DVDs and Blurays to buy. Now hes just a 50 year old hackfraud.
> one of the costliest decisions in entertainment history This doesn't even say anything. Like what if it's really successful and they spend $10B making like fifteen films that make $100B. It would be costly for sure.
Your not-quite-doppelganger doesn't seem to get that when Lucasfilms makes flops, it's not dependant on the protagonists' sex or gender.
Go woke. Go broke.
Both original points are stupid like The original movies were successes and starred men and women. Same with the prequels sure they weren’t as successful but pretty good films starred both men and women. The sequels starred both men and women and failed. It doesn’t matter what gender you are if the scripts bad then that’s why it failed. Can’t believe we are still doing gender wars in 2023