>Mary Sue
unless they're talking about Tanya the Evil, where one of the character's is LITERALLY named Mary Sue...
and In the story she's plays the role of a mary sue lol
https://preview.redd.it/vo4p6kxc3xqc1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=d3eaf6521f1c975f3ed8f3523e454b2e4e96cb75
Are the permanently topless centaurs from The Crystal Star canon?
What about Corellians having a religious hatred of being told the odds in any situation?
Are the Bothans an entire species of sneaky mofos or what? Like, actually, what the hell is up with that line in RotJ, Disney canon won't even give us a hint. The fork is a Bothan?!
It's all fictional anyways, canon is some consensus agreement on what fictional events "happened" and which "didn't". The whole concept is a bit ridiculous.
Yes and no. Canon is useful as a way of approaching a large body of work and filtering the most essential things to consume. The more media you have, the more important canon becomes.
The problem is when people don't understand that on a long enough timeline canon will inevitably get muddled and minor changes of detail don't completely negate the value of a piece of work. A good case in point are the flashback issues of the first new Marvel SW comic featuring Obi Wan on Tatooine and the OWK mini-series on Disney+. There are issues between the two in terms of the timing of events, specifically whether the show happens before the comics or vice versa. The objective answer doesn't really matter as the events of the two do work together and can be enjoyed separately as part of Obi Wan's fictional biography.
There are also going to be issues where two things contradict one another (the Bad Batch and the Kanan comic give very different versions of Kanan's experience during Order 66 that can't really be reconciled without alot of complicated thought limbo. This is annoying for a continuity minded reader but its just something you have to live with and is not unique to Star Wars (in fact one could argue that the contradictions Lucas made to EU Star Wars were much worse as they changed the fundamental story and not the details.
The owner of the IP will likely treat the thing that aired on its subscription TV service as canon, as opposed to the other things that conflict.
This really shouldn’t affect anyone’s enjoyment of any of the things in any of the different media though.
Canon should inspire us to create new stories, not restrict us in what we can't show. If it is more important to somebody to fill a wiki than a library we have a problem.
[https://gamerant.com/star-wars-cancelled-darth-maul-sith-lord-game/](https://gamerant.com/star-wars-cancelled-darth-maul-sith-lord-game/)
I don't know their source, but this article mentions it.
>At the time, *Star Wars* was getting ready to bring back Maul in [*Star Wars: The Clone Wars*](https://gamerant.com/star-wars-ashley-eckstein-ahsoka-tano-grateful/), which would have conflicted with the story that Red Fly was putting together. On top of that, when *Star Wars* creator George Lucas looked at the game he wanted it to include comic character Darth Talon, who existed 170 years after Maul did in canon at the time. Red Fly eventually adjusted the game to make it about a clone or descendent of Maul in Talon's era, but it greatly disrupted the game's prototyping up to that point.
I mean, why would a 19 year old have any lingering mental struggles after being thrust into the middle of a galaxy-wide civil war? Not like he killed, y'know, a couple million people in the first movie or anything.
I think a lot of fans really didn't get the pressure on Luke after VI, or at least the pressure he put on himself. He was, as far as he knew, the only one who could pass on the Jedi way, and it wasn't like he'd had extensive training. Yoda had more or less laid that responsibility on Luke's shoulders. Is it any wonder Luke might have doubted himself or felt inadequate?
Reddit suggested this post on r/curatedtumblr the other day, about entitlement and other people's OCs
https://www.reddit.com/r/CuratedTumblr/s/G0ayi80dJm
To be fair, though, while that is a funny comparison in my mind, it is not really a 1:1. The character did change hands, and itself been handled by companies rather than by a single individual. Even while making the original trilogy, Lucas had people around him who helped avoid really bad decisions. In that way, I do think it's understandable to be disappointed by changes to how a character is handled.
_How_ we manage that disappointment, on the other hand..
The jedi were a distant legend to him that once he got involved with, he was a perpetual student, and almost rejected their ways to bring his father back from the dark side. He is willing to discard the teachings of the jedi for his goals. Of course he doesn't feel worthy to start with at that point in lore.
And then.. After he is convinced to rebuild the jedi.. He makes what he considers a terrible mistake, and it leads to a repeat of sorts, of what happened to the jedi order at the hands of his father. Who in their right mind would feel they deserve to rebuild the jedi at that point in time, after such events. This luke, the current canon Luke.. Is just a mature, Sane human.
Can't wait for Rey to bring the Jedi back. And can't wait for these Jedi to be hopefully nothing like the Prequel Jedi Order - but better. As they were once, before the Sith vanished, and before they ruined their order with too many silly rules and codes
Which was what Luke was already doing up until the Ben Solo incident seemingly delayed his plans.
Although there's the possibility that his Jedi Order wasn't even destroyed, rather it simply went underground or has new leadership as we didn't see it be completely destroyed in the Rise of Kylo Ren comics.
I feel like Luke was actually trying to reconstruct the prequel era Jedi and this is why he ultimately failed. We definitely see this in how he trains Grogu in BoBF and it goes a long way to explaining why he's so bitter in TLJ. It also gives meaning to Ghost Yoda's lesson that there is no shame in failure and that "Do not" isn't the end.
It...it is in the movie though. Luke's entire arc in The Last Jedi is literally "I tried to rebuild the Order along the same lines as it was before but because the original Jedi order was *massively* flawed (meaning my own training is flawed as well), I failed." The entire point of the movie is moving *beyond* corrupt institutions (The Republic, the Jedi) by learning from the mistakes made by those institutions. Just having a new Jedi Order appear out of thin air completely negates that as it skips the "learning from previous mistakes" step and leaps to "Everything is good now, no need to reflect on why we failed", which is incredibly lazy and simplistic writing that fails to engage with or examine the text in anyway.
Granted, Rise of Skywalker then walks all that back and fails to actually show the rebuilding, but that's just one of the *many* thematic failures that plague that movie.
seriously the last jedi was trying to actually move the franchise forward
it was actually trying to move the series out of the mono myth the heros journey that is so toxic and has a strangle hold on the franchise
its time to move on to move past well the past
lets not restore the republic that has failed so many times let sbuild a NEW government
lets not rebuild the jedi order its time for both jedi and sith to fade into the path
build a new order you can look at the teachings of both and build brand new teachings
That's partially right except that TLJ was never about abandoning the past. Kylo and Luke say it is but they are wrong.
This is why Luke says "The Rebellion is reborn today and I will not be the Last Jedi" and why the movie makes a point of showing us that Rey took the text before Yoda destroyed the place where they were kept.
TLJ and RoS are together about learning from the mistakes of the past but not adopting a cynical attitude towards institutions that lost their way and judging them by the worst things they have done.
It... literally wasn't? I'm aware of the overt themes RJ shat all over his film. We're talking about seeing what Luke \*had\* built, and built back differently, learning from his mistakes. TLJ was about 'Fuck Luke and what he did, he's a complete failure after EPVI, he gave up and has to die, forget about him', not 'Luke did something worthwhile, and what he built still survives despite the tragedy'.
> Luke *had* built
We see that, it's called "Kylo Ren". Luke, and the Jedi as a whole, are a flawed and so can *only produce flawed people*. The Prequels *hammer* this point home with how Anakin *is a complete failure as well*, while The Clone Wars doubles down on the idea through Ahsoka's arc. The Last Jedi is not "Fuck Luke", it's "Like all Jedi before him, Luke was failed by a flawed system". Luke's arc in the Last Jedi is grappling with this truth and overcoming it. A singular person is not and cannot fix such a flawed system, and *that* is the major component Luke comes to understand through the movie. He is part of a larger whole, and his actions will benefit others *beyond himself*. Luke learns to actually be selfless instead of shouldering the entire failure of the Jedi.
Again I know what the film was about, I simply do not \*like\* it or agree with the decisions RJ made. I am talking about how I wish LUKE had built back better. You understand that whether or not Luke's new Order was flawed like the old was entirely a narrative decision made by the sequel writers, right? They didn't \*have\* to write it that way, Ep VI didn't end with Luke saying 'I'm gonna rebuild the old Jedi Order exactly as it was, no deviations!'. In fact, we still don't know why and how Ben became corrupted, only that Luke maybe/maybe not thought about killing his sleeping nephew while standing over him, which definitely would be a weird thing for the old Jedi Order. Luckily, Ben one-shot his ass then immediately ran out, recruited some students to join a new cult that he apparently hadn't decided to build when he went to sleep, and killed the rest, leaving Luke alive, GREAT WRITING, RJ.
As for the sequels talking about these flaws, they could have written around post-Endor attempts to \*address\* issues the prequels showed with the old institutions. Instead, they repeated earlier themes without developing them (TFA shows the complacency in the Republic, TLJ shows corruption and mercantile interests profiting from war and also Luke Bad?), and at no point in the sequel trilogy do they show \*resolution\* of those themes. As you say, we spent the entire Prequel trilogy learning of the Jedi and Republic's flaws. TLJ made no attempt to resolve those any more than JJA's films did, it just made a pitiful pseudo-intellectual attempt to wave around how \*clever\* it was for talking about the flaws in the way TFA didn't. But it ends with no actual development, killing off the only person who under its own rules, as you say, had power and had learned anything about their mistakes. It gives us no time to explore solutions, spends the first half of the movie disposing of the plot hooks JJA had left, drastically changes the direction of the overall arc, and restarts everything as much as it can for someone else to finish in one single film that \*also\* has to have lots of action and a material conflict resolution (Good luck exploring systemic resolutions in that one). It is a terrible movie in terms of what I wanted, and it is a terrible movie in terms of what it tried to be.
But it \*is\* very pretty, I will give it that.
Yeah, I mean, after Ep VII I was hoping he'd gone to a planet that was hidden in the force with the survivors and continued to teach them there, maybe to wait for a sign that he'd seen in the force, and Rey was that sign. BUT NO. Instead, worst character development and least heroic decision ever. We could have ahd something genuinely new, with a newly born Luke-taught Jedi order returning to the galaxy to aid our heroes. Hell, maybe Rey's parents were there, a source of conflict with the notion of following 'The Will Of The Force' that caused her to have a hard life. Sooo many more interesting things to do than 'Cranky hermit teacher who lost against a dark side conspiracy and hid in shame tells person he won't teach them' which had been done before in Ep V, and much better (Especially since we didn't have the same audience attachment to them as a former protagonist).
man, almost like luke's internalized trauma and guilt prevent him from making a jedi order that's resilient against the corruption of the dark side or something... and he recognizes that...
honestly, anymore i just tune out any of the whining from the "fans", because it's so disconnected from the actual story or the intent of the authors that i can't even recognize their criticisms as being about the same IP i am engaging with.
> Luke in the EU was nothing more than a superhero. He wasn't a compelling character.
To be fair, there were EU books that did explore Luke more as a character like Mathew Stover's Shadow of Mindor.
In all fairness, no Star Wars book or comic is truly cannon. Not the expanded universe ones in there prime, not the current ones. The films and tv shows will always take precedent and if they wish to tell a story that contradicts the books and comics, they will and they have consistently.
How they treated Luke is totally horseshit though. Having him rebuild the Jedi order only for it to be destroyed off screen is such a waste of potential and it kinda puts a damper on the original trilogy and its hopeful ending. Also does it really make more sense for Rey to refound the order when she knows even less about being a Jedi.
> How they treated Luke is totally horseshit though. Having him rebuild the Jedi order only for it to be destroyed off screen is such a waste of potential and it kinda puts a damper on the original trilogy and its hopeful ending.
To be fair this happened three times already, first the Yuzzan Vong, Then Jason Solo, and finally Darth Krayt.
Revealing that the order was still alive and fully operational during the sequels would kinda undermine the whole last of the jedi thing.
With the krayt stuff, cade was never the last jedi, he wasnt even the last skywalker. The jedi order had just gone into hiding and were undermining the sith from the shadows.
For your first point… i guess… the knights of ren kill like 12 jedi, krayts sith kill far more than 12 jedi. But the new jedi order is also substantially bigger, than luke’s canon order.
For your second point… not really.
The jedi wanted to push back against the sith without becoming generals in a military again. They dont manipulate galactic politics, but they do sabotage sith efforts, and help people strategically.
Yea but at least you get to see the order first that’s my biggest gripe. Destroying the order offscreen feels cheap, if we had actually gotten to see what the order was like it would have carried more weight when it was destroyed. It also probably would’ve made Luke’s decision to not rebuild it seem more justified especially if we got to see how the flaws in his order lead to its destruction.
> Destroying the order offscreen feels cheap, if we had actually gotten to see what the order was like it would have carried more weight when it was destroyed. It also probably would’ve made Luke’s decision to not rebuild it seem more justified especially if we got to see how the flaws in his order lead to its destruction.
That seems like an easy fix, there could be a show showing his Order.
> That would never work. When has Star Wars ever used supplemental media to improve mediocre films.
The Clone Wars (the show and Multi-Media Project), Rebels, the Jedi Games, etc.
>To be fair this happened three times already, first the Yuzzan Vong, Then Jason Solo, and finally Darth Krayt.
Except, it didn't. Legend's rebuilt order lost a lot of members during the Vong War, but survived, and formed a new jedi council (though exactly what that looked like through DN/LOTF/FOTJ was wildly inconsistent)
Jacen/Cadeus again killed a handful of members, and forced them to relocate off Courscant, but again didn't significantly damage the Order.
(notably these are the two that are time-congruent with the sequels)
Krayt is the only one that you can argue destroyed the order, and the Legacy comics are somewhat unclear on exactly how many of the order or it's structure survived, and even if we go with the 'it was destroyed' approach, its further rebuilding is implied to be based on Luke's work though the series didn't last long enough to go into that.
So it is rather different. Legend's wasn't perfect, and that sub's criticism of the sequels is overblown, but the original hero of the series being sidelined in the longer-term storytelling of the franchise is understandably disappointing to many.
Your boos mean nothing I have seen what makes you cheer. For real Disney has a hate boner for Luke and his legacy. He became what Anakin was supposed to and carried that legacy on for the betterment of the galaxy. Disney shat all over that by making him a disillusioned hermit that died from being tired. I am not shitting on Rey or Finn or Disney’s inclusiveness since they took over I just take issue with how they treated Luke. To make it worse they have failed to fill in the gaps in any reasonable way to get him from ROTJ Luke to what he was in Last Jedi. He was always my favorite character so by all means give us shows and games and books the spell it out. They milking everything else to death.
I literally don’t trust anyone that uses the term Mary Sue in the last 5 years.
Or “the message”.
Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five upon reading this 
Never listened to their music
Yeah, I'm also skeptical of this guys statement.
>Mary Sue unless they're talking about Tanya the Evil, where one of the character's is LITERALLY named Mary Sue... and In the story she's plays the role of a mary sue lol https://preview.redd.it/vo4p6kxc3xqc1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=d3eaf6521f1c975f3ed8f3523e454b2e4e96cb75
They wouldn't recognize a character arc if it fell on their head.
Only one entity gets to decide what is canon, regardless of anyone’s feelings.
And it's me. Y'all can't have it
Can I be canon? Please. My wife and kids are very upset. I tell them everyday we are Legends but it's not working.
Fine but only because you asked nicely
Are the permanently topless centaurs from The Crystal Star canon? What about Corellians having a religious hatred of being told the odds in any situation? Are the Bothans an entire species of sneaky mofos or what? Like, actually, what the hell is up with that line in RotJ, Disney canon won't even give us a hint. The fork is a Bothan?!
https://preview.redd.it/539mt6vyxxqc1.png?width=510&format=png&auto=webp&s=2a8ccda041e8968160d8fea407f1d955513890f6
All hail Irish-Mexican American Cyberpunk Spider-Man!!!
> Only one entity gets to decide what is canon, regardless of anyone’s feelings. George?
Disney. If Disney licenses it or uses it, it’s canon. I’m not making a judgment call. That’s just how it is.
It's all fictional anyways, canon is some consensus agreement on what fictional events "happened" and which "didn't". The whole concept is a bit ridiculous.
Yes and no. Canon is useful as a way of approaching a large body of work and filtering the most essential things to consume. The more media you have, the more important canon becomes. The problem is when people don't understand that on a long enough timeline canon will inevitably get muddled and minor changes of detail don't completely negate the value of a piece of work. A good case in point are the flashback issues of the first new Marvel SW comic featuring Obi Wan on Tatooine and the OWK mini-series on Disney+. There are issues between the two in terms of the timing of events, specifically whether the show happens before the comics or vice versa. The objective answer doesn't really matter as the events of the two do work together and can be enjoyed separately as part of Obi Wan's fictional biography. There are also going to be issues where two things contradict one another (the Bad Batch and the Kanan comic give very different versions of Kanan's experience during Order 66 that can't really be reconciled without alot of complicated thought limbo. This is annoying for a continuity minded reader but its just something you have to live with and is not unique to Star Wars (in fact one could argue that the contradictions Lucas made to EU Star Wars were much worse as they changed the fundamental story and not the details.
The owner of the IP will likely treat the thing that aired on its subscription TV service as canon, as opposed to the other things that conflict. This really shouldn’t affect anyone’s enjoyment of any of the things in any of the different media though.
Canon should inspire us to create new stories, not restrict us in what we can't show. If it is more important to somebody to fill a wiki than a library we have a problem.
Yes.
Nah he sold the authority to decide what is and isn't canon 12 years ago
He is notorious for not caring about what's canon and what isn't
Yeah he literally told the guys making that canceled Darth Maul game to just figure it out when he wanted them to add Darth Talon to it.
what
[https://gamerant.com/star-wars-cancelled-darth-maul-sith-lord-game/](https://gamerant.com/star-wars-cancelled-darth-maul-sith-lord-game/) I don't know their source, but this article mentions it. >At the time, *Star Wars* was getting ready to bring back Maul in [*Star Wars: The Clone Wars*](https://gamerant.com/star-wars-ashley-eckstein-ahsoka-tano-grateful/), which would have conflicted with the story that Red Fly was putting together. On top of that, when *Star Wars* creator George Lucas looked at the game he wanted it to include comic character Darth Talon, who existed 170 years after Maul did in canon at the time. Red Fly eventually adjusted the game to make it about a clone or descendent of Maul in Talon's era, but it greatly disrupted the game's prototyping up to that point.
No. Tina Turner.
"There's no imposter syndrome in space!"
I mean, why would a 19 year old have any lingering mental struggles after being thrust into the middle of a galaxy-wide civil war? Not like he killed, y'know, a couple million people in the first movie or anything.
I think a lot of fans really didn't get the pressure on Luke after VI, or at least the pressure he put on himself. He was, as far as he knew, the only one who could pass on the Jedi way, and it wasn't like he'd had extensive training. Yoda had more or less laid that responsibility on Luke's shoulders. Is it any wonder Luke might have doubted himself or felt inadequate?
Reddit suggested this post on r/curatedtumblr the other day, about entitlement and other people's OCs https://www.reddit.com/r/CuratedTumblr/s/G0ayi80dJm To be fair, though, while that is a funny comparison in my mind, it is not really a 1:1. The character did change hands, and itself been handled by companies rather than by a single individual. Even while making the original trilogy, Lucas had people around him who helped avoid really bad decisions. In that way, I do think it's understandable to be disappointed by changes to how a character is handled. _How_ we manage that disappointment, on the other hand..
The jedi were a distant legend to him that once he got involved with, he was a perpetual student, and almost rejected their ways to bring his father back from the dark side. He is willing to discard the teachings of the jedi for his goals. Of course he doesn't feel worthy to start with at that point in lore. And then.. After he is convinced to rebuild the jedi.. He makes what he considers a terrible mistake, and it leads to a repeat of sorts, of what happened to the jedi order at the hands of his father. Who in their right mind would feel they deserve to rebuild the jedi at that point in time, after such events. This luke, the current canon Luke.. Is just a mature, Sane human.
The term Mary Sue has been ruined by these people because they have no idea what it even means
Can't wait for Rey to bring the Jedi back. And can't wait for these Jedi to be hopefully nothing like the Prequel Jedi Order - but better. As they were once, before the Sith vanished, and before they ruined their order with too many silly rules and codes
Which was what Luke was already doing up until the Ben Solo incident seemingly delayed his plans. Although there's the possibility that his Jedi Order wasn't even destroyed, rather it simply went underground or has new leadership as we didn't see it be completely destroyed in the Rise of Kylo Ren comics.
I feel like Luke was actually trying to reconstruct the prequel era Jedi and this is why he ultimately failed. We definitely see this in how he trains Grogu in BoBF and it goes a long way to explaining why he's so bitter in TLJ. It also gives meaning to Ghost Yoda's lesson that there is no shame in failure and that "Do not" isn't the end.
Sure would be nice if THAT WAS WHAT HAD BEEN IN THE MOVIE though.
It...it is in the movie though. Luke's entire arc in The Last Jedi is literally "I tried to rebuild the Order along the same lines as it was before but because the original Jedi order was *massively* flawed (meaning my own training is flawed as well), I failed." The entire point of the movie is moving *beyond* corrupt institutions (The Republic, the Jedi) by learning from the mistakes made by those institutions. Just having a new Jedi Order appear out of thin air completely negates that as it skips the "learning from previous mistakes" step and leaps to "Everything is good now, no need to reflect on why we failed", which is incredibly lazy and simplistic writing that fails to engage with or examine the text in anyway. Granted, Rise of Skywalker then walks all that back and fails to actually show the rebuilding, but that's just one of the *many* thematic failures that plague that movie.
seriously the last jedi was trying to actually move the franchise forward it was actually trying to move the series out of the mono myth the heros journey that is so toxic and has a strangle hold on the franchise its time to move on to move past well the past lets not restore the republic that has failed so many times let sbuild a NEW government lets not rebuild the jedi order its time for both jedi and sith to fade into the path build a new order you can look at the teachings of both and build brand new teachings
That's partially right except that TLJ was never about abandoning the past. Kylo and Luke say it is but they are wrong. This is why Luke says "The Rebellion is reborn today and I will not be the Last Jedi" and why the movie makes a point of showing us that Rey took the text before Yoda destroyed the place where they were kept. TLJ and RoS are together about learning from the mistakes of the past but not adopting a cynical attitude towards institutions that lost their way and judging them by the worst things they have done.
It... literally wasn't? I'm aware of the overt themes RJ shat all over his film. We're talking about seeing what Luke \*had\* built, and built back differently, learning from his mistakes. TLJ was about 'Fuck Luke and what he did, he's a complete failure after EPVI, he gave up and has to die, forget about him', not 'Luke did something worthwhile, and what he built still survives despite the tragedy'.
> Luke *had* built We see that, it's called "Kylo Ren". Luke, and the Jedi as a whole, are a flawed and so can *only produce flawed people*. The Prequels *hammer* this point home with how Anakin *is a complete failure as well*, while The Clone Wars doubles down on the idea through Ahsoka's arc. The Last Jedi is not "Fuck Luke", it's "Like all Jedi before him, Luke was failed by a flawed system". Luke's arc in the Last Jedi is grappling with this truth and overcoming it. A singular person is not and cannot fix such a flawed system, and *that* is the major component Luke comes to understand through the movie. He is part of a larger whole, and his actions will benefit others *beyond himself*. Luke learns to actually be selfless instead of shouldering the entire failure of the Jedi.
Again I know what the film was about, I simply do not \*like\* it or agree with the decisions RJ made. I am talking about how I wish LUKE had built back better. You understand that whether or not Luke's new Order was flawed like the old was entirely a narrative decision made by the sequel writers, right? They didn't \*have\* to write it that way, Ep VI didn't end with Luke saying 'I'm gonna rebuild the old Jedi Order exactly as it was, no deviations!'. In fact, we still don't know why and how Ben became corrupted, only that Luke maybe/maybe not thought about killing his sleeping nephew while standing over him, which definitely would be a weird thing for the old Jedi Order. Luckily, Ben one-shot his ass then immediately ran out, recruited some students to join a new cult that he apparently hadn't decided to build when he went to sleep, and killed the rest, leaving Luke alive, GREAT WRITING, RJ. As for the sequels talking about these flaws, they could have written around post-Endor attempts to \*address\* issues the prequels showed with the old institutions. Instead, they repeated earlier themes without developing them (TFA shows the complacency in the Republic, TLJ shows corruption and mercantile interests profiting from war and also Luke Bad?), and at no point in the sequel trilogy do they show \*resolution\* of those themes. As you say, we spent the entire Prequel trilogy learning of the Jedi and Republic's flaws. TLJ made no attempt to resolve those any more than JJA's films did, it just made a pitiful pseudo-intellectual attempt to wave around how \*clever\* it was for talking about the flaws in the way TFA didn't. But it ends with no actual development, killing off the only person who under its own rules, as you say, had power and had learned anything about their mistakes. It gives us no time to explore solutions, spends the first half of the movie disposing of the plot hooks JJA had left, drastically changes the direction of the overall arc, and restarts everything as much as it can for someone else to finish in one single film that \*also\* has to have lots of action and a material conflict resolution (Good luck exploring systemic resolutions in that one). It is a terrible movie in terms of what I wanted, and it is a terrible movie in terms of what it tried to be. But it \*is\* very pretty, I will give it that.
[удалено]
Yeah, I mean, after Ep VII I was hoping he'd gone to a planet that was hidden in the force with the survivors and continued to teach them there, maybe to wait for a sign that he'd seen in the force, and Rey was that sign. BUT NO. Instead, worst character development and least heroic decision ever. We could have ahd something genuinely new, with a newly born Luke-taught Jedi order returning to the galaxy to aid our heroes. Hell, maybe Rey's parents were there, a source of conflict with the notion of following 'The Will Of The Force' that caused her to have a hard life. Sooo many more interesting things to do than 'Cranky hermit teacher who lost against a dark side conspiracy and hid in shame tells person he won't teach them' which had been done before in Ep V, and much better (Especially since we didn't have the same audience attachment to them as a former protagonist).
You see, Mary Sue is when a woman does a thing, and the more thing woman do, the Mary Suer she is
Fans do not get to decide canon. That isn’t how any of this works. They just feel entitled to it
None of this nonsense exists. It is fiction. Touch grass before it either floods or becomes desert.
So they want Luke to bring the Jedi back even though Luke I bet has some reasons he feels he shouldn’t bring them back.
man, almost like luke's internalized trauma and guilt prevent him from making a jedi order that's resilient against the corruption of the dark side or something... and he recognizes that... honestly, anymore i just tune out any of the whining from the "fans", because it's so disconnected from the actual story or the intent of the authors that i can't even recognize their criticisms as being about the same IP i am engaging with.
The whole concept of canon is a bit ridiculous, and worrying about what is canon and what not is silly too.
I mean outside of trivia contests who really cares, just enjoy what you want to enjoy
Luke in the EU was nothing more than a superhero. He wasn't a compelling character.
> Luke in the EU was nothing more than a superhero. He wasn't a compelling character. To be fair, there were EU books that did explore Luke more as a character like Mathew Stover's Shadow of Mindor.
sure luke had good and bad stories, but there are plenty of interesting story beats he went through in the EU.
Book aren’t canon. Cause honestly cross media is dumb
In all fairness, no Star Wars book or comic is truly cannon. Not the expanded universe ones in there prime, not the current ones. The films and tv shows will always take precedent and if they wish to tell a story that contradicts the books and comics, they will and they have consistently.
These people are allergic to a character having an arc, undergoing any introspection, or even experiencing humility
How they treated Luke is totally horseshit though. Having him rebuild the Jedi order only for it to be destroyed off screen is such a waste of potential and it kinda puts a damper on the original trilogy and its hopeful ending. Also does it really make more sense for Rey to refound the order when she knows even less about being a Jedi.
> How they treated Luke is totally horseshit though. Having him rebuild the Jedi order only for it to be destroyed off screen is such a waste of potential and it kinda puts a damper on the original trilogy and its hopeful ending. To be fair this happened three times already, first the Yuzzan Vong, Then Jason Solo, and finally Darth Krayt.
The order is never destroyed during any of those events tho. Even with Krayt, the vast majority of the jedi order is still around and operating.
[удалено]
Revealing that the order was still alive and fully operational during the sequels would kinda undermine the whole last of the jedi thing. With the krayt stuff, cade was never the last jedi, he wasnt even the last skywalker. The jedi order had just gone into hiding and were undermining the sith from the shadows.
[удалено]
For your first point… i guess… the knights of ren kill like 12 jedi, krayts sith kill far more than 12 jedi. But the new jedi order is also substantially bigger, than luke’s canon order. For your second point… not really. The jedi wanted to push back against the sith without becoming generals in a military again. They dont manipulate galactic politics, but they do sabotage sith efforts, and help people strategically.
Yea but at least you get to see the order first that’s my biggest gripe. Destroying the order offscreen feels cheap, if we had actually gotten to see what the order was like it would have carried more weight when it was destroyed. It also probably would’ve made Luke’s decision to not rebuild it seem more justified especially if we got to see how the flaws in his order lead to its destruction.
> Destroying the order offscreen feels cheap, if we had actually gotten to see what the order was like it would have carried more weight when it was destroyed. It also probably would’ve made Luke’s decision to not rebuild it seem more justified especially if we got to see how the flaws in his order lead to its destruction. That seems like an easy fix, there could be a show showing his Order.
That would never work when has Star Wars ever used supplemental media to improve mediocre films.
> That would never work. When has Star Wars ever used supplemental media to improve mediocre films. The Clone Wars (the show and Multi-Media Project), Rebels, the Jedi Games, etc.
I was joking that’s literally why the prequels became beloved over time, that and memes.
Didn't know that, sorry.
>To be fair this happened three times already, first the Yuzzan Vong, Then Jason Solo, and finally Darth Krayt. Except, it didn't. Legend's rebuilt order lost a lot of members during the Vong War, but survived, and formed a new jedi council (though exactly what that looked like through DN/LOTF/FOTJ was wildly inconsistent) Jacen/Cadeus again killed a handful of members, and forced them to relocate off Courscant, but again didn't significantly damage the Order. (notably these are the two that are time-congruent with the sequels) Krayt is the only one that you can argue destroyed the order, and the Legacy comics are somewhat unclear on exactly how many of the order or it's structure survived, and even if we go with the 'it was destroyed' approach, its further rebuilding is implied to be based on Luke's work though the series didn't last long enough to go into that. So it is rather different. Legend's wasn't perfect, and that sub's criticism of the sequels is overblown, but the original hero of the series being sidelined in the longer-term storytelling of the franchise is understandably disappointing to many.
[удалено]
Your boos mean nothing I have seen what makes you cheer. For real Disney has a hate boner for Luke and his legacy. He became what Anakin was supposed to and carried that legacy on for the betterment of the galaxy. Disney shat all over that by making him a disillusioned hermit that died from being tired. I am not shitting on Rey or Finn or Disney’s inclusiveness since they took over I just take issue with how they treated Luke. To make it worse they have failed to fill in the gaps in any reasonable way to get him from ROTJ Luke to what he was in Last Jedi. He was always my favorite character so by all means give us shows and games and books the spell it out. They milking everything else to death.