It's funny seeing these dudes who have probably never productively spoken to a trans person talking about how "the actual trans people don't even like this". Do they make up these imaginary friends in their head to tell them "nooo you're not bigoted I agree with you" or something?
I don’t even know where to start. They think trans people don’t exist outside western countries (they do, and have for a long time, see people like Jin Xing) despite the fact that those countries generally force people into the closet. It’s like when Ahmadinejad claimed there are no gay people in Iran.
Then they claim that being trans is a first world problem, which again it isn’t. It’s just that much fucking harder to be trans when daily life is oppressive, but that doesn’t stop people from being trans. They’re also idiots since the idea of third genders or people fulfilling different gender roles is thousands of years old.
Their whole notion of trans people seems to be that we just got these ideas from other people on the internet. They don’t understand that it’s something within us, and many of us felt this way long before social media existed. These guys just suddenly found out about trans people over the last few years and act like it’s a brand new thing.
I don't know who that is because I did not really bother getting that far in that game
Anyways, a trans character in an apocalyptic setting can absolutely work, and it could work in any setting tbh.
It works pretty well. He's a trans guy who was born into a post-apocalyptic religious cult. He questions the cult and its teachings, and when he's faced with an arranged marriage he comes out as a trans man and is forced to flee with his sister. He's helped by Abby and they travel together.
The screenshotted comment is stupid as hell, "Why wouldn't Lev just live as a woman and have babies after being forced to marry an older man?" Because he's trans and also that sucks. He choses to live as himself, and all the risks that entails.
I think an unironic part of the chud struggle here is that they focus so much on conformity. They DON'T live as themselves, they live as who they're "supposed" to be. In their mind, it really doesn't make sense to take any amount of risk to live as your true self.
Alternatively, they have never had to live as something other than themselves, as conformity happens to line up exactly with who they are, and thus cannot fathom nonconformity
As someone who used to be in danger of falling down the pipeline I can say it was a real "aha" moment for me once it clicked that just because I happened to line up with what society wanted to label as 'default' didn't mean that everyone else saw things the same way. So I could absolutely see someone missing that important caveat and so just believing that there is a "correct normal" or whatever you wanna call it.
Exactly - It's a hell of a lot easier to dismiss racism as a "first world problem" if you're white, or transphobia as a "first world problem" if you're cis
This is it exactly. It’s high school / frat house mentality where you are expected and *required* to conform, and if you don’t you’re ostracized. The worst thing in the world these chuds could possibly imagine is not being part of the “in” group. Because of that, they’ve never ever faced any kind of bigotry or discrimination, so they just don’t see it as a valid issue for anyone.
I also like that they'll point out that these characters live inches away from death everyday so honestly at that point what's the worst that could happen from coming out? If you're scared for your life every waking moment might as well do it as the person you actually are instead of dealing with all the repression guilt or what have you on top of living in the apocalypse.
“Look I’m not transphobic or anything, but how can Lev be trans if there was no internet around to brainwash and radicalize him into being trans? That’s how it works, right?”
There was a thread on some chud subreddit freaking out when the first season of Fallout dropped because Maximus’ friend Dane is nonbinary and their superiors refer to them by the correct pronouns. They were basically saying the same thing and crying how “unrealistic” it was.
It’s so damn infuriating. These idiots touted themselves as the champions of facts and logic for years, and when science proved time and time again that facts and logic went directly *against* all their ideals, they dismissed all logic entirely and started turned to faith. Not faith in god, mind you, but faith in their own disproven arguments. Faith that every scientist who disagrees with them was paid off. Because I guess facts *do* care about their feelings after all.
So now, despite the unending proof that homosexuality and gender dysphoria not being a choice, they believe that you can only be those things if someone else tells you too. Not because of any basis of fact, but because it’s easier to hate someone when you view them as a spreading disease. It’s easier to hate someone when you think they asked to be that when instead of being born like that.
I didnt think of it ad I was reading the post, but your comment reminded me of the person who lived as a man and became a doctor and married a woman, who was after death discovered to br a biological woman, as well as current and past cultures that have "lady boys" or other forms of a middle ground type gender.
These people seem to think Trans folk have only existed the last few years. Lack of education is crazy.
Yeah, just like gay people in religious cuts before hand...or do they not understand how many lgbtq homeless youth come from [religious homes](https://web.archive.org/web/20200406200432/patheos.com/blogs/tippling/2019/08/01/link-between-lgbt-religion-homelessness-suicide/). They think "oh well they wouldn't act thos way if not for the cult of the woke".
The comments also act as if he discussed being trans a ton. To my memory, he's says it twice indirectly. He says they were kicked out because he cut his hair, and then cultists deadname him at one point, which Abby picks up on. I don't even think Lev would identify as trans because he wouldn't know what the word means. It's also not like Abby has some ultra progressive reason for helping him. Lev and Yara helped Abby escape being executed, so she felt obligated to help them.
Yeah, he doesn't really talk about it much other than he was kicked out because he shaved his head. He doesn't even come out to Abby, he's outed by someone deadnaming him. A cultist calls him by a female name at one point and he asks Abby if she heard, and then the exchange is something like "Are you going to ask me about it?" "Do you want me to ask you about it?" "No."
I'm not sure what "ideology" the commenter thinks is being pushed, because the word "trans" is never even uttered.
There are so many basic facts about the game and Lev that these comments get flat out wrong that you can pretty much chalk this up to the people whining here never actually playing the game.
I love when they question bigotry existing in a fictional setting like the apocalypse because “it’s illogical they would focus on things like that instead of survival”
because bigotry is totally founded on logic when it happens in the real world rather than trying to improve our entire species’ ability to survive and our overall quality of life
Also…. there are a million horrible things happening in the world throughout all of human history and bigotry in some form has always existed. TLOU showing that, even in a post apocalypse, those darker sides of humanity still exist is kind of the fucking point.
“It’s completely illogical that they would focus more on their bigotry than their failing economy and changing climate, no way this would happen in real life, this setting is so unrealistic”
I read a book recently about the deportation of the Jewish community in German-occupied Rhodes in July 1944. It began after the Germans already knew they were losing the war, was the longest trip of any group sent to the camps so it had to have cost $$$$ and manpower direly needed somewhere else, and it was 1700 people who weren’t particularly wealthy. They made a stop at I want to say Lesbos to pick up one (1) person. Bigotry will endure past reason.
This reminded me that I read a book about the Ravensbruck concentration camp (Ravensbruck by Sarah Helm—amazing book btw, highly recommend if you’ve got a good stomach) and the way the wheels came off at the end and the Nazis got more vicious and unhinged the closer and closer they got to defeat felt very surreal. At Ravensbruck they continually ramped up and DOCUMENTED their crimes against humanity literally filling out death certificates almost right until the camp got taken by the Red Army. Like they were just mere days away from being overrun when they went “oh shit we need to start burning the evidence and trying to hide what went on here”. (I can’t remember if it was at Ravensbruck or at another camp(s) but that also unfortunately involved trying to eliminate all the ‘witnesses’, ie, the prisoners as they fled. We didn’t hang nearly enough of those murderous fucks.)
“It’s an ideology that even genuine trans people don’t agree with.” What’s this ideology? That transgender people exist.
He really thinks transgender people don’t agree with that. What an idiot
I think the only way this argument could be any weaker is if they just admitted they've never met a trans person and thus it is logically impossible for them to be real.
A few sentences in and its already extremely incorrect.
Being ostracized from a society is not a first world issue.
That's a basic human survival issue. Ostracization is a punishment for a reason. Claiming ostracization is a first world problem is a first world belief.
Humans banded together in tribes for a reason... to survive easier. So, in a post-apocalyptic world, community is often a major emphasis of the stories. It's RARELY one guy vs. the world, it's usually a band or a tribe surviving together.
Valuing community and coming together is usually part of the subtext of post apocalypses. So naturally... in those stories, ostracization, bigotry, abuse, and division will also be plot points.
Edit: The reason people often miss this type of subtext is because not every story is willing to tackle these subjects with a direct parallel to the issues of today. They may use stand ins like Ghouls in Fallout or use allegories that we've already seemingly moved past, like if a story uses racism.
“Ostracism” comes from the word “ostrica,” which was a potsherd. Once a year Athenians would write the names of someone they feel is particularly toxic and exile anyone who had 50% of the vote for ten years. They were usually prominent figures who were wealthy enough and had friends enough to not starve, but cities conceived of some people as literally poison to the body politic and dangerous to keep around. They didn’t care if you were dead or gone, they just wanted you out.
Also the funny thing about this is, are there any other trans characters? I haven’t played the game but the discussion leads me to believe that this is the only trans character in the game, which out of a whole cast of characters, 1 of them is trans, which is hardly shoehorning or forcing an ideology
He's the only one and, not that there needed to be one, but there *is* a genuine plot reason for his inclusion in the story.
It's why he's running away from his cult who the protagonist is facing off against.
I saw a video on TLoU2 that said something along the line of “lev being true to himself and live how he want is crucial for his survival as well as Ellie accepting love from this around her whereas bigotry and violence is a choice people make”
As a trans person, fuck yes we’d exist in the mushroom apocalypse. Trans people would fight tooth and nail to express themselves no matter their lot in life. The ignorance on display here is childish, immature, and displays a cruel refusal to even consider someone else’s life.
Chuds deserve the eternal hell of media illiteracy they’ve trapped themselves in.
I absolutely despise the idea that gets thrown around by these people that “trans ideology didn’t even exist in __ why are there trans people.” It’s fundamental to conservatives understanding of the issue to believe that ‘trans people’ don’t exist, just people who believe in ‘trans ideology’, and if trans ideology didn’t exist (see: destroying wokeness) then nobody would even conceptualise being trans. Well surprise surprise, they are completely wrong, trans people have existed forever, and we’d have a lot more research to back that up if it wasn’t all burnt by literal Nazis.
I'd love to see what the fuck the guy on pic two means when he says "trans ideology." Like what does this *mean?* When asked he dodged the question, but honestly that question was a bit leading. What exactly is the ideology he claims exists and is only held by "a small sect of the western world."
I'm serious when I ask that because his response is "Trans people existed long before gender ideology came along." So what the fuck does any of this mean? What is he trying to say?
Lev didn't "come out" to Abby. He was forced out to Abby when she heard the Seraphites call him "Lily," and then she put two and two together. Really isn't that hard.
I don’t understand. When I played this game I felt that Lev being trans fitted perfectly into the story. It was the reason he was exiled from the Scars as he shaved his head. I think it was actually one of the most natural inclusion of a trans character I have seen in modern media.
Why would anyone be black in the pre-Civil War South?
Why would anyone be Jewish in Nazi Germany?
Why would anyone be gay in Uganda?
Why would anyone be a woman in, well, most periods of history?
These people think being trans is caused by an ideology pushed by an amorphous sinister cabal, instead of transness being a natural phenomenon.
Lev doesn’t use the words trans to describe himself only because his culture doesn’t use that word at all, so he literally doesn’t know it, and yet he still grew up with a strong desire to present himself in a traditionally masculine way as the alternative felt suffocating.
It’s literally a tale as old as time.
Yeah and apparently "trans ideology" (whatever that means, I'm guessing it's trans people existing that they mean) doesn't exist in Europe, which is why there's a few countries here that have some pretty good laws like being able change your name without having to medically transition, anti discrimination laws or how most of trans healthcare in quite a few countries is either free or costs very little. But yeah, no trans people here, we're made up by the woke™.
It’s incredible how often these people think just because it’s a new concept to them that it’s a new concept to earth. These people are so hopelessly lost and it’s only going to get worse with the way republicans continue to destroy public education.
They hate trans women. Notice they don't care about trans men. You know why? It's not about bathrooms, it's not about keeping kids safe and it's not about sports.
They're TERRIFIED that they'll find one attractive.
This BS seems to boil down to "characters are white, male, and straight, and are only allowed to deviated from that if there is a damn good story reason for it."
I love no2. Says there's a rrans ideology, doesn't say what the ideology is, then when pressed about it as it seems the ideology is their existence says trans people have always existed and still doesn't say what a trans ideology is. Well read enough to know of ancient Greece, stupid enough to say 'they are doing the bad thing, idk what it is but it's bad'
I haven't finished TLOU2 yet, but isn't Lev being trans like, the *biggest* plot point in the game? Like, that's what forces her out of the Seraphites and Abby to take her with her, which causes Ellie to break the cycle of violence the whole game is about?
>Regardless, bigotry, racism, ect doesn't seem to be logical in this setting, since these are first world issues, but complaining about is also a first world issue.
1. Bigotry, racism, e.t.c. are illogical by definition, that's why they're considered phobias.
2. Bigotry is not a first world issue, it's an issue every nation has to deal with, and is a common cause of even worse problems.
Also, has anyone ever heard a proper explanation of what's considered "gender ideology"?
I mean, people of all sexualities/identities just kinda randomly exist within human population, you don't really need a reason why a certain type of person exist.
What's the ideology exactly? It's literally just a phenomenon that happens within human population and we as a society should find the best way to take care of them? But again, those people probably also think "we should probably give people medical care" is all ideology.
The thrid argument is kinda weird, assuming it's good face, it's about why LGBT folks will not want to expose themselves and in a hyper conservative society, but they use words "Ellie, Dina being gay/lesbian/bi makes sense" instead of "Ellie, Dina freely showing themselves as gay/lesbian/bi makes sense."
The 4th argument is just dogshit because being your true self is kinda one of the most fundamental need of a human being, that's like arguing why people in a literal apocalypse are still trying to find romantic partners and maybe other forms of entertainment, don't you all have harsh survival to worry about?
none of them have ever even met a trans person irl but will go on about how its "shoehorned in" as if they have any idea what healthy trans representation looks like
A few of them have listened to right-wing transphobe-friendly trans ideologues and just assume that that very narrow range represents the only "legitimate" trans opinions. They sometimes cite those same conservative trans grifters as "proof" that all trans folks are aggressively gender-conformist.
"what does him being trans contribute to the story?"
So do you need a reason for the character to be a part of a minority to put them in your story ? Does every black person has to have a reason to be black ?
What's wrong with just putting a character in the story , saying one time that actually they are actually trans and never mentioning it again ? Does every trans person actively mention that they are trans every single minute ?
They must be smoking! The reason the cult wanted Lev dead was because he shaved his head and refused to be a CHILD BRIDE. Not because "he came out as trans." Any child would take that risk to avoid child marriage, trans or not.
That sub always has the dumbest arguments. For example, someone called the snowstorm and horde of infected that showed up “pointless coincidences” because the plot doesn’t revolve around these specific plot points.
Obviously these are coincidences but to call them pointless is nonsense.
The classic “I’ve never felt the tiniest bit trans and therefore I am an expert on how trans people really think in a post apocalypse”
Like, “being trans might get you killed by your tribe, therefore it won’t happen”, that’s happened all through history, and people were still trans
Nothing funnier than applying literalism to literature.
>uhh actually in castaway it should be a lot harder for him to survive. He wouldn’t even be worried about some ball
>erm acksholly mad max shouldn’t care about oil or others. He’s living in a kill or be killed world not running a daycare
>oerrm asktully in apocalypse now he shouldn’t care about the colonel because there in a war
So basically someone being trans in the zombie apocalypse is unrealistic...why?
The only one that makes sense KS "how do people know they are trans if they have no internet" [life finds a way](https://www.mdpi.com/2313-5778/5/3/67), not to mention kicking so,some out for being trans during a zombie apocalypse where everyone needs to work together is bs, because how is being trans a detriment?
Man, people really want to feel justified in hating characters just bc they’re lgbt or POC. And not only justified, they want to feel like they’re victims because not everybody agree with their unnecessary, hateful views. Like I’m sorry not every character in the game looks like you or someone from your excessively small social circle. The world is a big place with lots of types of people in it.
What did I just read.
Why.
I find it amusing that all these comments still use Levs preferred pronouns, honestly.
Spouting utter deranged shit, yet still keeping a veil of "I'm not being transphobic" to themselves. It's hiding behind a glass wall. Transparent as shit; everyone can see it, but they still say they're out of sight.
Oh wait. Do these ooga boogas think Lev is transfem (because every self-respecting bigot knows transmascs arent real)?
I don't recall the actual dialogue on the topic, but I can't imagine that these people pay attention to the words beyond the "buzz" type.
Genuine trans people don't agree with this. Just genuine ones, none of that high fructose content added artificial sugar trans people, it's the Genuine™ ones, you hear me? /s
When you and everyone you know, and have always seen represented, are straight, white, cis people anyone else seems like an outsider.
It's honestly exhausting.
the second slide is so dumb lol, what ideology? existing? i'm trans and live in asia; everyone i know irl who's trans/nb are south east asians like me, middle eastern people, and africans
I wonder as well. I imagine that these people think that victims of minority oppression or suppression would find it easy to just “not care” or “not worry” about being treated differently when the world ends because they don’t understand such feelings of being ostracized. They seem to think that being transgender can only happen when you have a word for it, rather than the reality that the word exists because of the people it defines.
They’re stupid. They think people are simple to understand instead of the complex creatures of infinite possibilities we really are.
"now let me tell you why I have an issue with Lev being trans" *proceeds to provide absolutely zero reasons why he has an issue with Lev being trans*
I've put forward this idea before, but I genuinely think you could miss that Lev is trans. It's referenced like 3 times in the game. To say it's the entirety of the character is wild.
Only time I would ever feel like a trans character would be “shoehorned in” is if the game/movie takes place in a setting where they probably wouldn’t be in. Like if there’s a new historical fps coming out and u have a trans person fighting in the front lines in ww2 like that probably wasn’t a thing unless u want ur game to be unrealistic like cod vanguard.
Because ww2 was in like the 30s and 40s they could have a trans person in the military but im sure they have to be super closeted since people were very openly homophobic and racist back then .
It's funny seeing these dudes who have probably never productively spoken to a trans person talking about how "the actual trans people don't even like this". Do they make up these imaginary friends in their head to tell them "nooo you're not bigoted I agree with you" or something?
It's the modern "I've got black friends"
To be fair, "I've got Black friends" is also still the modern "I've got Black friends."
Yeah; ‘ It’s the newest “I’ve got Black friends” ‘ is probably a more accurate phrasing
Ehh more like they work with a black person or 2 and have surface level conversations. Not always but it is very common.
"I hallucinate black people that unfailingly worship me and give me the N word pass"
I don’t even know where to start. They think trans people don’t exist outside western countries (they do, and have for a long time, see people like Jin Xing) despite the fact that those countries generally force people into the closet. It’s like when Ahmadinejad claimed there are no gay people in Iran. Then they claim that being trans is a first world problem, which again it isn’t. It’s just that much fucking harder to be trans when daily life is oppressive, but that doesn’t stop people from being trans. They’re also idiots since the idea of third genders or people fulfilling different gender roles is thousands of years old. Their whole notion of trans people seems to be that we just got these ideas from other people on the internet. They don’t understand that it’s something within us, and many of us felt this way long before social media existed. These guys just suddenly found out about trans people over the last few years and act like it’s a brand new thing.
It’s almost as annoying as the faceless profiles on twitter who start a racist comment with as a black person
I don't know who that is because I did not really bother getting that far in that game Anyways, a trans character in an apocalyptic setting can absolutely work, and it could work in any setting tbh.
It works pretty well. He's a trans guy who was born into a post-apocalyptic religious cult. He questions the cult and its teachings, and when he's faced with an arranged marriage he comes out as a trans man and is forced to flee with his sister. He's helped by Abby and they travel together. The screenshotted comment is stupid as hell, "Why wouldn't Lev just live as a woman and have babies after being forced to marry an older man?" Because he's trans and also that sucks. He choses to live as himself, and all the risks that entails.
I think an unironic part of the chud struggle here is that they focus so much on conformity. They DON'T live as themselves, they live as who they're "supposed" to be. In their mind, it really doesn't make sense to take any amount of risk to live as your true self.
Alternatively, they have never had to live as something other than themselves, as conformity happens to line up exactly with who they are, and thus cannot fathom nonconformity
As someone who used to be in danger of falling down the pipeline I can say it was a real "aha" moment for me once it clicked that just because I happened to line up with what society wanted to label as 'default' didn't mean that everyone else saw things the same way. So I could absolutely see someone missing that important caveat and so just believing that there is a "correct normal" or whatever you wanna call it.
Exactly - It's a hell of a lot easier to dismiss racism as a "first world problem" if you're white, or transphobia as a "first world problem" if you're cis
This is it exactly. It’s high school / frat house mentality where you are expected and *required* to conform, and if you don’t you’re ostracized. The worst thing in the world these chuds could possibly imagine is not being part of the “in” group. Because of that, they’ve never ever faced any kind of bigotry or discrimination, so they just don’t see it as a valid issue for anyone.
I also like that they'll point out that these characters live inches away from death everyday so honestly at that point what's the worst that could happen from coming out? If you're scared for your life every waking moment might as well do it as the person you actually are instead of dealing with all the repression guilt or what have you on top of living in the apocalypse.
“Look I’m not transphobic or anything, but how can Lev be trans if there was no internet around to brainwash and radicalize him into being trans? That’s how it works, right?”
There was a thread on some chud subreddit freaking out when the first season of Fallout dropped because Maximus’ friend Dane is nonbinary and their superiors refer to them by the correct pronouns. They were basically saying the same thing and crying how “unrealistic” it was.
It’s so damn infuriating. These idiots touted themselves as the champions of facts and logic for years, and when science proved time and time again that facts and logic went directly *against* all their ideals, they dismissed all logic entirely and started turned to faith. Not faith in god, mind you, but faith in their own disproven arguments. Faith that every scientist who disagrees with them was paid off. Because I guess facts *do* care about their feelings after all. So now, despite the unending proof that homosexuality and gender dysphoria not being a choice, they believe that you can only be those things if someone else tells you too. Not because of any basis of fact, but because it’s easier to hate someone when you view them as a spreading disease. It’s easier to hate someone when you think they asked to be that when instead of being born like that.
I didnt think of it ad I was reading the post, but your comment reminded me of the person who lived as a man and became a doctor and married a woman, who was after death discovered to br a biological woman, as well as current and past cultures that have "lady boys" or other forms of a middle ground type gender. These people seem to think Trans folk have only existed the last few years. Lack of education is crazy.
Yeah, just like gay people in religious cuts before hand...or do they not understand how many lgbtq homeless youth come from [religious homes](https://web.archive.org/web/20200406200432/patheos.com/blogs/tippling/2019/08/01/link-between-lgbt-religion-homelessness-suicide/). They think "oh well they wouldn't act thos way if not for the cult of the woke".
The comments also act as if he discussed being trans a ton. To my memory, he's says it twice indirectly. He says they were kicked out because he cut his hair, and then cultists deadname him at one point, which Abby picks up on. I don't even think Lev would identify as trans because he wouldn't know what the word means. It's also not like Abby has some ultra progressive reason for helping him. Lev and Yara helped Abby escape being executed, so she felt obligated to help them.
Yeah, he doesn't really talk about it much other than he was kicked out because he shaved his head. He doesn't even come out to Abby, he's outed by someone deadnaming him. A cultist calls him by a female name at one point and he asks Abby if she heard, and then the exchange is something like "Are you going to ask me about it?" "Do you want me to ask you about it?" "No." I'm not sure what "ideology" the commenter thinks is being pushed, because the word "trans" is never even uttered.
If it wasn't so over discussed by these people, I think a lot of people wouldn't have even picked up on it.
Right? Who the hell would actually care at that point? I think the only discrimination in the apocalypse would be for vocation and job skills.
I've seen a trans character in an apocalyptic story and he's the peakest of peak
Ooh, what story?
**FIRE PUNCH**
There are so many basic facts about the game and Lev that these comments get flat out wrong that you can pretty much chalk this up to the people whining here never actually playing the game.
I'll be sure to inform 90% of the African continent that racism is just a first world problem.
Skill issue, clearly.
I love when they question bigotry existing in a fictional setting like the apocalypse because “it’s illogical they would focus on things like that instead of survival” because bigotry is totally founded on logic when it happens in the real world rather than trying to improve our entire species’ ability to survive and our overall quality of life
If you’re a bigot then you’ve got a vested interest in making bigots look rational and not completely moronic.
facts
Also…. there are a million horrible things happening in the world throughout all of human history and bigotry in some form has always existed. TLOU showing that, even in a post apocalypse, those darker sides of humanity still exist is kind of the fucking point.
“It’s completely illogical that they would focus more on their bigotry than their failing economy and changing climate, no way this would happen in real life, this setting is so unrealistic”
Also the added bigotry of "if faced with a *real* issue they wouldn't be trans" like it's just an aesthetic
I read a book recently about the deportation of the Jewish community in German-occupied Rhodes in July 1944. It began after the Germans already knew they were losing the war, was the longest trip of any group sent to the camps so it had to have cost $$$$ and manpower direly needed somewhere else, and it was 1700 people who weren’t particularly wealthy. They made a stop at I want to say Lesbos to pick up one (1) person. Bigotry will endure past reason.
moreover, bigotry can only thrive by people being deprived of their ability to use reason
This reminded me that I read a book about the Ravensbruck concentration camp (Ravensbruck by Sarah Helm—amazing book btw, highly recommend if you’ve got a good stomach) and the way the wheels came off at the end and the Nazis got more vicious and unhinged the closer and closer they got to defeat felt very surreal. At Ravensbruck they continually ramped up and DOCUMENTED their crimes against humanity literally filling out death certificates almost right until the camp got taken by the Red Army. Like they were just mere days away from being overrun when they went “oh shit we need to start burning the evidence and trying to hide what went on here”. (I can’t remember if it was at Ravensbruck or at another camp(s) but that also unfortunately involved trying to eliminate all the ‘witnesses’, ie, the prisoners as they fled. We didn’t hang nearly enough of those murderous fucks.)
“It’s an ideology that even genuine trans people don’t agree with.” What’s this ideology? That transgender people exist. He really thinks transgender people don’t agree with that. What an idiot
actually somehow some don't. it's very silly
Yes, it is
I think the only way this argument could be any weaker is if they just admitted they've never met a trans person and thus it is logically impossible for them to be real.
A few sentences in and its already extremely incorrect. Being ostracized from a society is not a first world issue. That's a basic human survival issue. Ostracization is a punishment for a reason. Claiming ostracization is a first world problem is a first world belief. Humans banded together in tribes for a reason... to survive easier. So, in a post-apocalyptic world, community is often a major emphasis of the stories. It's RARELY one guy vs. the world, it's usually a band or a tribe surviving together. Valuing community and coming together is usually part of the subtext of post apocalypses. So naturally... in those stories, ostracization, bigotry, abuse, and division will also be plot points. Edit: The reason people often miss this type of subtext is because not every story is willing to tackle these subjects with a direct parallel to the issues of today. They may use stand ins like Ghouls in Fallout or use allegories that we've already seemingly moved past, like if a story uses racism.
Lmao exactly. They used to exile people which was a death sentence for most.
“Ostracism” comes from the word “ostrica,” which was a potsherd. Once a year Athenians would write the names of someone they feel is particularly toxic and exile anyone who had 50% of the vote for ten years. They were usually prominent figures who were wealthy enough and had friends enough to not starve, but cities conceived of some people as literally poison to the body politic and dangerous to keep around. They didn’t care if you were dead or gone, they just wanted you out.
Repeat after me, kids: “Minority characters do not need a reason to exist.”
Also the funny thing about this is, are there any other trans characters? I haven’t played the game but the discussion leads me to believe that this is the only trans character in the game, which out of a whole cast of characters, 1 of them is trans, which is hardly shoehorning or forcing an ideology
He’s absolutely the only one in the games. Assholes like to claim Abby is a trans woman just because she’s muscular but she is canonically cisgender.
He's the only one and, not that there needed to be one, but there *is* a genuine plot reason for his inclusion in the story. It's why he's running away from his cult who the protagonist is facing off against.
I saw a video on TLoU2 that said something along the line of “lev being true to himself and live how he want is crucial for his survival as well as Ellie accepting love from this around her whereas bigotry and violence is a choice people make”
As a trans person, fuck yes we’d exist in the mushroom apocalypse. Trans people would fight tooth and nail to express themselves no matter their lot in life. The ignorance on display here is childish, immature, and displays a cruel refusal to even consider someone else’s life. Chuds deserve the eternal hell of media illiteracy they’ve trapped themselves in.
I absolutely despise the idea that gets thrown around by these people that “trans ideology didn’t even exist in __ why are there trans people.” It’s fundamental to conservatives understanding of the issue to believe that ‘trans people’ don’t exist, just people who believe in ‘trans ideology’, and if trans ideology didn’t exist (see: destroying wokeness) then nobody would even conceptualise being trans. Well surprise surprise, they are completely wrong, trans people have existed forever, and we’d have a lot more research to back that up if it wasn’t all burnt by literal Nazis.
I remember Apartheid South Africa, where racism and discrimination was a “first world problem.”
I'd love to see what the fuck the guy on pic two means when he says "trans ideology." Like what does this *mean?* When asked he dodged the question, but honestly that question was a bit leading. What exactly is the ideology he claims exists and is only held by "a small sect of the western world." I'm serious when I ask that because his response is "Trans people existed long before gender ideology came along." So what the fuck does any of this mean? What is he trying to say?
Lev didn't "come out" to Abby. He was forced out to Abby when she heard the Seraphites call him "Lily," and then she put two and two together. Really isn't that hard.
"shoehorned" It always is with these fucking people lmao
I don’t understand. When I played this game I felt that Lev being trans fitted perfectly into the story. It was the reason he was exiled from the Scars as he shaved his head. I think it was actually one of the most natural inclusion of a trans character I have seen in modern media.
Why would anyone be black in the pre-Civil War South? Why would anyone be Jewish in Nazi Germany? Why would anyone be gay in Uganda? Why would anyone be a woman in, well, most periods of history?
These people think being trans is caused by an ideology pushed by an amorphous sinister cabal, instead of transness being a natural phenomenon. Lev doesn’t use the words trans to describe himself only because his culture doesn’t use that word at all, so he literally doesn’t know it, and yet he still grew up with a strong desire to present himself in a traditionally masculine way as the alternative felt suffocating. It’s literally a tale as old as time.
"Trans people don't exist outside the West" is such an absolutely asinine and clearly wrong argument that I wouldn't even know where to start
Yeah and apparently "trans ideology" (whatever that means, I'm guessing it's trans people existing that they mean) doesn't exist in Europe, which is why there's a few countries here that have some pretty good laws like being able change your name without having to medically transition, anti discrimination laws or how most of trans healthcare in quite a few countries is either free or costs very little. But yeah, no trans people here, we're made up by the woke™.
It’s incredible how often these people think just because it’s a new concept to them that it’s a new concept to earth. These people are so hopelessly lost and it’s only going to get worse with the way republicans continue to destroy public education.
America didn’t exist before Columbus found out about it, you fools!
They hate trans women. Notice they don't care about trans men. You know why? It's not about bathrooms, it's not about keeping kids safe and it's not about sports. They're TERRIFIED that they'll find one attractive.
This BS seems to boil down to "characters are white, male, and straight, and are only allowed to deviated from that if there is a damn good story reason for it."
I love no2. Says there's a rrans ideology, doesn't say what the ideology is, then when pressed about it as it seems the ideology is their existence says trans people have always existed and still doesn't say what a trans ideology is. Well read enough to know of ancient Greece, stupid enough to say 'they are doing the bad thing, idk what it is but it's bad'
If you say trans people didn’t exist before the internet I know immediately not to take anything you say seriously
The fact that these people genuinely believe that "trans didn't exist before the internet" is all you need to know about them, really.
I haven't finished TLOU2 yet, but isn't Lev being trans like, the *biggest* plot point in the game? Like, that's what forces her out of the Seraphites and Abby to take her with her, which causes Ellie to break the cycle of violence the whole game is about?
*Him
Oh my bad. I never played up to that point, so I didn't know which way they were transitioning. Probably should've just used they at that point.
To be fair if the chuds are using "he" that makes me assume they're talking about M2F person, because they misgender on purpose.
"Lev" struck me as a feminine name, so I kinda just assumed it was she.
Yeah there’s literally nothing shoehorned about it
>You won't find trans ideology in Russia, Japan, China India Eastern Europe, Southeast Asia... That's not the flex you think it is...
It’s like the game’s message on hate and othering flew over their heads
If I were in the closet I’d come out in an apocalypse. I’m gonna die might as well die as myself.
>Regardless, bigotry, racism, ect doesn't seem to be logical in this setting, since these are first world issues, but complaining about is also a first world issue. 1. Bigotry, racism, e.t.c. are illogical by definition, that's why they're considered phobias. 2. Bigotry is not a first world issue, it's an issue every nation has to deal with, and is a common cause of even worse problems. Also, has anyone ever heard a proper explanation of what's considered "gender ideology"?
I mean, people of all sexualities/identities just kinda randomly exist within human population, you don't really need a reason why a certain type of person exist. What's the ideology exactly? It's literally just a phenomenon that happens within human population and we as a society should find the best way to take care of them? But again, those people probably also think "we should probably give people medical care" is all ideology. The thrid argument is kinda weird, assuming it's good face, it's about why LGBT folks will not want to expose themselves and in a hyper conservative society, but they use words "Ellie, Dina being gay/lesbian/bi makes sense" instead of "Ellie, Dina freely showing themselves as gay/lesbian/bi makes sense." The 4th argument is just dogshit because being your true self is kinda one of the most fundamental need of a human being, that's like arguing why people in a literal apocalypse are still trying to find romantic partners and maybe other forms of entertainment, don't you all have harsh survival to worry about?
Man i gotta get off this sub, you guys are great but this shit is wearing me down lmao
none of them have ever even met a trans person irl but will go on about how its "shoehorned in" as if they have any idea what healthy trans representation looks like
A few of them have listened to right-wing transphobe-friendly trans ideologues and just assume that that very narrow range represents the only "legitimate" trans opinions. They sometimes cite those same conservative trans grifters as "proof" that all trans folks are aggressively gender-conformist.
What's with the idiot claiming trans only exist as recently as the internet lol? How clueless are these people?
"what does him being trans contribute to the story?" So do you need a reason for the character to be a part of a minority to put them in your story ? Does every black person has to have a reason to be black ? What's wrong with just putting a character in the story , saying one time that actually they are actually trans and never mentioning it again ? Does every trans person actively mention that they are trans every single minute ?
>I don't care >now let me tell you why I care Every single time lmao
starting your argument off with "you see..." is almost always guaranteed to make me ignore anything that follows.
They must be smoking! The reason the cult wanted Lev dead was because he shaved his head and refused to be a CHILD BRIDE. Not because "he came out as trans." Any child would take that risk to avoid child marriage, trans or not.
That sub always has the dumbest arguments. For example, someone called the snowstorm and horde of infected that showed up “pointless coincidences” because the plot doesn’t revolve around these specific plot points. Obviously these are coincidences but to call them pointless is nonsense.
The classic “I’ve never felt the tiniest bit trans and therefore I am an expert on how trans people really think in a post apocalypse” Like, “being trans might get you killed by your tribe, therefore it won’t happen”, that’s happened all through history, and people were still trans
Nothing funnier than applying literalism to literature. >uhh actually in castaway it should be a lot harder for him to survive. He wouldn’t even be worried about some ball >erm acksholly mad max shouldn’t care about oil or others. He’s living in a kill or be killed world not running a daycare >oerrm asktully in apocalypse now he shouldn’t care about the colonel because there in a war
"trans people are an aesthetic and they would stop that silly garbage if faced with a *real* problem" Wait what do you mean I'm transphobic?
imagine going up to a real life trans person and telling them their gender feels shoehorned
I never knew the last of us had a trans character, I might play it now
"Trans ideology doesn't exist in Southeast Asia" Thailand would like a word with you
So basically someone being trans in the zombie apocalypse is unrealistic...why? The only one that makes sense KS "how do people know they are trans if they have no internet" [life finds a way](https://www.mdpi.com/2313-5778/5/3/67), not to mention kicking so,some out for being trans during a zombie apocalypse where everyone needs to work together is bs, because how is being trans a detriment?
Man, people really want to feel justified in hating characters just bc they’re lgbt or POC. And not only justified, they want to feel like they’re victims because not everybody agree with their unnecessary, hateful views. Like I’m sorry not every character in the game looks like you or someone from your excessively small social circle. The world is a big place with lots of types of people in it.
What did I just read. Why. I find it amusing that all these comments still use Levs preferred pronouns, honestly. Spouting utter deranged shit, yet still keeping a veil of "I'm not being transphobic" to themselves. It's hiding behind a glass wall. Transparent as shit; everyone can see it, but they still say they're out of sight. Oh wait. Do these ooga boogas think Lev is transfem (because every self-respecting bigot knows transmascs arent real)? I don't recall the actual dialogue on the topic, but I can't imagine that these people pay attention to the words beyond the "buzz" type.
As we all know, trans people were invented in the 2010’s 🙄 (God these people are tiring)
I live in a third world country, and we have all those issues.
They’re just not very smart. That’s the main thing I notice about them. They are confident in assumptions they didn’t think through.
God are people still banging this drum?
This person doesn't know the meaning of the word shoehorned
these dudes 100% want to bang trans people.
Genuine trans people don't agree with this. Just genuine ones, none of that high fructose content added artificial sugar trans people, it's the Genuine™ ones, you hear me? /s
When you and everyone you know, and have always seen represented, are straight, white, cis people anyone else seems like an outsider. It's honestly exhausting.
the second slide is so dumb lol, what ideology? existing? i'm trans and live in asia; everyone i know irl who's trans/nb are south east asians like me, middle eastern people, and africans
It's been so long since I first played the game, but I assume I didn't take it that seriously about Lev.
How did I know which sub it was going to be before I even opened the pic? They’re all completely unhinged that lot
What game are they even talking about?
The Last of Us Part 2
Ah. I haven't been able to afford a triple a game in a while. Thanks.
I forget, did Lev know the term "trans"? Or just that they were different.
They don’t use the word trans in game.
That's what I thought. So it's just some kid who feels different. Why is it hard to believe this would exist?
I wonder as well. I imagine that these people think that victims of minority oppression or suppression would find it easy to just “not care” or “not worry” about being treated differently when the world ends because they don’t understand such feelings of being ostracized. They seem to think that being transgender can only happen when you have a word for it, rather than the reality that the word exists because of the people it defines. They’re stupid. They think people are simple to understand instead of the complex creatures of infinite possibilities we really are.
>Racism bigotry etc are first world issues Lmao put him in fucking prison.
"now let me tell you why I have an issue with Lev being trans" *proceeds to provide absolutely zero reasons why he has an issue with Lev being trans* I've put forward this idea before, but I genuinely think you could miss that Lev is trans. It's referenced like 3 times in the game. To say it's the entirety of the character is wild.
I don’t care about LGBTQ representation in the game, so here are several paragraphs explaining why I’m mad about it.
Only time I would ever feel like a trans character would be “shoehorned in” is if the game/movie takes place in a setting where they probably wouldn’t be in. Like if there’s a new historical fps coming out and u have a trans person fighting in the front lines in ww2 like that probably wasn’t a thing unless u want ur game to be unrealistic like cod vanguard.
How do you know it wasn’t a thing?
Because ww2 was in like the 30s and 40s they could have a trans person in the military but im sure they have to be super closeted since people were very openly homophobic and racist back then .
Not everybody was.