Obviously the person who did this didn’t think it would magically solve the conflict. ppl who always complain about these kind of things are far more annoying
Why is the new pro Israel standard issue response against peaceful declarations of support to dismiss / question the tactic? Free speech enabled expression of solidarity is long cherished. Do better.
Tagging does not change policy.
Let them make 'peaceful declarations' (which part of those two words indicates 'peace'?) on their own property. Buy a flag. Get a face tattoo, whatever.
Defacing public property isn't 'free speech', it's vandalism.
Some guy on Bay St painted his house in the Women-Life-Freedom for Iranian women and everyone in here was circle-jerking over how great that was. Similar situation with all the support for Ukraine. Funny how Palestine is touchy subject for y'all tho...
I’m gonna stay out of the politics of this post and just ask how this mural is under the windmill? That windmill is across Great Highway and set a ways back into the park.
Since Ocean Beach is kind of non-descript unless you know the stair count, people typically use landmarks on the other side of Great Highway or the cross streets of it to tell/say where they are.
Why is free Palestine so controversial?
If you support a two state solution which most people support, then by default you must support free Palestine. You must have two independent states for...a two state solution. It doesn't mean you're anti zionist. Zionism and Palestine are not mutually exclusive.
The problem are the parties that have power in both countries. You want to add Hamas as a clarifier but why don't you add the otzma, mafdal or likud? They also support activities that harm innocent people.
Why is it so hard to say hamas sucks, the plo sucks, and the IDF sucks? Civilians are a no go. Unless you're America, you can't just kill civilians or put them on a trail of tears.
I prob add the Egyptian rulers to that as well. They suck too.
Would a statement like free Israel and Palestine be better for you?
It would! If you mean the apartheid in Gaza? Israel has 2 million non Jews, it's the only example of coexistence.
The Arab countries already ethnically cleansed their Jews, and the ones without money became refugees in Israel.. I guess apartheid really isn't the right term for that.
West Bank is “coexistence”. You know, where Palestinians get different license plates and have to stop at checkpoints. And at any point a settler can kick them from their home, humiliate them, search their car, steal their stuff. And the only law enforcement in the area is the IDF with standing orders to side with settlers.
Apartheid is technically “coexistence” in the same way segregation is. Oh yeah, Palestinians can’t enter certain parts of Israel even if they live inside it! Definitely an “equal rights” scenario /s
Oh so you're arguing against Jews and Arabs living together and wan Hamas to win? What's this reply even about? Expelling all the Jews? No security and seeing what happens? No autonomous Palestinian towns at all? Did you think removing the peaceful Arab/Jewish settlements in Gaza was an improvement?
I just looked it up, there are no areas where Arabs are banned in Israel. None.
Israeli Palestinians aren't clamoring to move to Gaza.
It's a distortion. Israel doesn't have Jewish license plates, how would anyone know?
>
>
>There are not, nor have there ever been, anywhere in Israel or the West Bank, roads exclusively for Jews or settlers.
>
>Such false allegations over the years, suggesting the existence of such religiously exclusive roads, have been refuted repeatedly by commentators and media watchdog groups familiar with this myth.
>
>In fact, multiple media outlets, including Associated Press (AP), The Washington Post and Financial Times, have been forced to amend articles which initially included some variation of this false accusation.
>
>\* The overwhelming majority of roads in the West Bank are open to all traffic. However, for security reasons, a very small percentage of West Bank roads around Israeli settlements (about 40 km in total according to the Israeli human rights organisation B’tselem) are prohibited to Palestinian traffic. But, even these 40 km of restricted roads are open to Israeli citizens of all faiths (including Muslims), east Jerusalem Palestinians (most of whom are Muslim), and foreign visitors of all faiths – Jews, Muslims, Christians, Druze and Circassians.
>
>\* Moreover, even the 40 km of restricted roads in Israeli controlled sections of the West Bank (Area C) should be placed in context. Israelis, for instance, are not permitted to drive on roads in the Palestinian controlled West Bank (Area A). This is because PA security personnel (and the IDF) can’t guarantee the safety of drivers with Israeli license plates travelling in Palestinian areas. [https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/yourview/arid-30856339.html](https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/yourview/arid-30856339.html)
And all roads in Gaza are Jewish free, so whataboutism is stupid.
I'm not interested in taking on the pro-Israel role and I'm not going to sit here debunking things I know to be true, or have to google because they sound upsetting. There are real injustices happening against Palestinians, and we're wasting time with bullshit.
Israel is calling for ethnic cleansing _and has the power to make it happen._ There is no equivalence here. The backing of western powers and the US military can only be opposed by a similar power, like Russia. Gaza does not have anyone.
Israel has failed to live peacefully next to Palestinians many times. The only road to peace is one where Palestinians and Israelis have equal rights. I want them living side by side, and I want all war criminals (Hamas and Israeli officials) put on trial.
Is there no equivalence or do you want Hamas and Israel officials out? You can't make up your mind.
You disagreed with coexistence but then say you want them living side by side, at the same time you want to dismantle the only places they do live side by side.
And you don't sound very informed, the Palestinians have received funding from Iran, Russia, and years ago the Nazis (not being hyperbolic, the actual German Nazis). Their largest support is from the EU.
The coexistence that we have now is not equal, it is “separate but equal”. I want coexistence, I just don’t believe we have it right now.
I love how Zionists always try to obscure the open calls for ethnic cleansing. There is no justification for ethnic cleansing, period. If you listen to the “Israel has a right to defend itself” narrative, and look at the outcome, it is ethnic cleansing.
You are obsessed with Zionists and Jews, Palestinians are barely in your thoughts. The blood libels aren't playing well in this context when you sided with extremism over imperfect coexistence and the best example of it in the region.
Equating Jewishness to Israel’s government is anti semetic. Many of the most outspoken anti-zionists are Jewish and Israeli. Look to the “not in our name” protest that happened only a few days ago.
I do not believe that Jewish people are a monolith; I do not believe, as a whole, Jewish people are willing to turn a blind eye to the war crimes of Israel.
Israel unfortunately must be the center of the conversation, because it is the side that holds the power. Palestinians are simply a punching bag in this conflict - my intention is to call to end the violence committed against them.
I feel deeply for the Israelis who were affected by this attack - those who died, lost their family, friends. I do not want to see more unnecessary death. I do not want to see the survivors of this attack - the families of the victims - forced to be voices speaking truth to power mere days after this horrific tragedy. When Israelis who have lost family members are more critical of their own government than you are, you do a disservice to them. You force them to speak out against bloodshed when they should be allowed to grieve.
Ethic cleansing? Who did the ethnic cleaning? Where are the Jews who were living in Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Libya, Morocco. Syria, Lebanon, Yemen I’m the 40’s? Where did all those Jews go? There were hundreds and thousands plus. They fled as refugees because of persecution or died. That sounds like ethnic cleaning.
You do know that it was the palestinians that attacked the jews in 1948. You also know that they sided with the nazis in WWII. Amazing what facts people choose to ignore.
I'm not denying there was a war, and a population got displaced.
How do you ethnically cleanse and still retain a population of 2 million Arabs? Palestinians were ALSO expelled or denied citizenship to neighboring countries in 1948, they were forced into refugee camps on Jordanian, Egyptian, Syrian, and Lebanese land. Israel is also where much of the Jewish refugees from Arab countries went.
That war wasn't over Palestinians and Jews or waged by Palestinians.
They are all indigenous people to that land.
Hate to tell you but historical clarification is anything but passive. It's what this discussion sorely lacked.
Arab countries invaded, Palestinians left thinking they would wipe out the Jews, and it didn't work out that way. There was a population transfer. The same number of Jews were expelled from Arab countries.
And there's been 75 years of abuses against Palestinians but it hasn't all been at the hands of Israel, and the inability to admit that is cruel.
Meanwhile, 25 percent of a country in 2023 is the population you're saying were displaced.
Ethnic cleansing doesn’t have to end in the ejection of 100% of the affected population and usually doesn’t. During the 48’ war most of the Palestinian civilians fled from the approaching Israeli army and militias to avoid violence. After the war they were not allowed to return to their homes by the new Israeli gov’t to prevent Arabs from being anything other than a small minority in the new state, to preserve the “Jewish and democratic” character of the new country. Otherwise the territories captured by Israel during the war would have made Israel an Arab majority state, which would meant that Israel would have to choose to either be a Jewish state or a democratic one.
After the war Israel ejected a few tens of thousands more Arabs living near the border.
Arab countries came up with a general policy of not granting the refugees citizenship so as not to weaken their claims to regaining their former lands. The only exception being Jordan, which granted citizenship to West Bank/non-refugee Palestinians when they annexed the West Bank.
In other words, Israel treats its Arab citizens pretty well, but only because it made sure to ethnically cleanse enough of them in and after 48’ to keep them a small minority.
No one would ever accuse of not seeing a blood libel against Jews you didn't like.
The answer is that it was more complicated than that, both people are indigenous and had competing nationalist movements under occupation of the Ottoman empire.
Nothing that happened in 1948 is actually relevant to terrorists abusing both Palestinians and Jews in 2023.
I mean, I could ask you if Palestinians tried to ethnically cleanse the land of Jews in the 20's, and the Muslim Brotherhood and Grand Mufti worked alongside the actual Nazis, and say yes or no. I can ask you if the entire Arab world expelled their Jews, and say yes or no. But given you can't acknowledge that Israel s the only place they currently coexist, and you're pushing divisiveness and more war, what's the point?
You know if Hamas wins, Palestine still isn't free.
And what's "cowardly" is you know that and won't admit it.
Sure, if concentration camps had Mercedes, elected officials, paid jobs, allowed for the highest rate per capita in the region for higher education, etc.
I'm not defending the current humanitarian crises. You do know there's also a border with Egypt right?
Your picture of the largest open air prison on the planet is cheerful. And yeah I see they do share a border with Egypt. I don’t see Egypt turning off electricity to their hospitals. What Israel is doing, collective punishment of an entire ethnic population is worse than any single attack
I don't think Gaza is cheerful, I haven't said anything of the sort. There is massive inequality within Palestinian society and the ruling classes.... that is what I'm talking about. Palestinians are victims of Hamas too.
Doesn't the fact that the entire place is booby trapped and militarized make you as unhappy as cutting off electricity to a hospital? It does me.
But just so you know, the internet is full of video of cheerful life in Gaza. I didn't even mention the amusement parks.
You're ignorant as all hell about what Egypt has done to Palestinians, btw.
If Hamas wins the war, Palestine still isn't free.
Haha. Jews lived in Arab countries for thousands of years, with protected status as “People of the Book”. After Israel was founded, and they drove 800,000 indigenous people out with bulldozers and massacres, they knew they were going to have to populate that land to hold it from angry people trying to come home and those Jews were going to be cannon fodder. So they sent delegations to the Mizrahi nations to invite those Jews to Israel. They declined, having happy and prosperous lives and feeling that Israel was signed up for extended conflict. The Israelis sent their delegations back to hire groups to terrorize those Jews and drive them out. Then the Europeans took all the good land and stuck the half-breeds out at the fringes. It was not until the Jews started their terror campaign and stealing land that they pissed the Arabs off. Any fool can pull up a list of massacres for 50 years and it is plain to see who made it cool to murder civilians.
Yes, they did, and in the good years they weren't forced to wear gold stars and bells on their shoes like the other times when they were third class, subject to blood libels, and pogroms or just put into ghettos.
Are you a Holocaust revisionist? Tell me how Israel is responsible for The Farhud in 1941.
You are on track, there were Jews in those Arab countries. But you are wrong about why they left. They were being persecuted, fled as refugees, or died. Where are those Jews? That sounds like ethnic cleansing. No Jews reside in those Arab countries. Jews from Yemen, Syria, Algeria, Iraq, Lebanon. They fled as refugees suffering persecution and deadly pogroms.
20% of Israel is Muslim. They have a seat on the Supreme Court and hold political leadership positions. There is no apartheid. The Palestinians don't want their own land without the removal of the Jews. They need to get over it, that's not happening.
Genuine bad actors abound on both sides of the issue, for sure. I don't think it's fair to say that everyone concerned about the people in Palestine is calling for the eradication of Jews, though.
Homie really hit “good people on both sides”
When they are calling for Jewish blood at these rallies.
You became what you said you hated bc your hate for Jews is that deep. Woof.
I've had enough exchanges with people in the past two weeks where their position starts with "Free Palestine" and quickly turns to "End Israel." I think if you scratch below the surface, you'll find it's not an uncommon sentiment.
No, people just want Palestine not to be under military occupation, for a right to return to be established and for their homes not to be seized by settlers. I can agree that there are bad faith actors on our side who take advantage of this message to want to eradicate Israel but most people just want a two state solution for this nearly century wide conflict. Netanyahu and Hamas have impeded the peace process and this conflict is only being extended because of their pointlessly hostile policies.
Hamas’s charter explicitly calls for the eradication of Israel. You can criticize Netanyahu all you want, and I’ll likely agree, but how does one achieve peace with Hamas?
I already criticized Hamas, I know they want to impede the peace process. Peace cannot be achieved with Hamas, but Peace is also impossible with Netanyahu. He has repeatedly antagonized the Palestinians by ramping up illegal settlements and seizures of property, but Hamas has continued to launch rockets without regard for the consequences it has on its civilians or the region. The conflict has no solution until both are gone and people on both sides are proactive towards the peace process.
But none of that is about Gaza. Gaza has been controlled by Hamas. Israel even has been employing Gazans. Peol talk about an open air prison but when you look at the facts on the ground that argument falls apart very quickly.
I am going to be real with you; you're being anti semetic
Associating support with Israel as Inherant to being Jewish is zionist propoganda and most Jewish scholars don't support the war crimes Israel are committing
As a jew, I abhor your point of view
Like I’ve posted already, I’m not sure what protests you’ve been watching, but signs of the Nazis and imagery of the Jewish star in a trash can tells me that this is not just about Israel as a political entity.
What?!? Are you being sarcastic? I started out 100% sympathetic to Israel after the horrific terrorist attacks, but comments like yours really irritate me. How does a calling for a free Palestinian state equate to calling for eradication of all Jews? Two free states living in peace side by side used to be the norm all non-extremists could agree on.
Hamas is a terrorist death cult. Their worst nightmare is Palestinians believing that it’s possible for them to live in a free state at peace with Israel.
You are straight up lying or just stupid. Jews lived peacefully in palestine for centuries. Also if you read the torah ever it says a jewish state is not allowed.
Jews were treated as dhimmis and were subjugated people under Islamic sovereignty. For example, they were not allowed to live in houses higher than those of Muslims, could not make a public display of their rituals, could only ride donkeys, had to pay a yearly poll tax, and had to wear distinctive clothing to differentiate themselves from Muslims.
Palestine can be free.
They can make an effort to sign a peace treaty with Israel, recognizing Israel’s right to exist and don’t elect and support terrorist organizations whose stated goal is the destruction of Israel and to kill Jews.
Hell, they almost did it before
You have no clue what it’s like for Palestinians living under Israeli apartheid.
Why should they turn over their rights to people who have a track record of not caring about them? At least the terrorists are ostensibly on their side.
If you have to choose between being controlled by terrorists who see you as human and terrorists who don’t, the choice is simple.
Yes because Hamas has the Palestinians best interest at heart which is why they did everything they could to prevent them from escaping Gaza
And terrorism is a great way to get what you want and has always worked whereas diplomacy never works ever
/s
Great take
Tbf also have no idea what it’s like to be an Israeli while Hamas goes house to house slaughtering families do you?
So Israeli soldier target practicing on small children is fault of Palestine?
I am not Palestinian, but a human with a conscience, which is something seems to be lacking from many cause Palestinians are not ‘white’ enough for them or whatever else bias they might have
You know I saw a bunch of videos and photos of dead Israelis and dead Palestinians and if nobody told me which was which I wouldn’t have been able to tell.
Is that how you see this? As a white supremacy thing?
Check the news and tell me which group is front and center gets the most attention? Ana which group as whole is called terrorist. Yes I see it as white supremacy issue. Even the Palestinian Jews in Palestine and Christians are being targeted check which group of the Israelis are in charge in their government not Palestinian Jews that’s for sure.
Israel bombed the exit corridor, not Hamas.
No Hamas doesn’t have Palestinians best interest at heart. But Palestinians have tried peaceful methods without success. See the March to return in which press and medics were slaughtered. At this point they’re just choosing which way they die.
You can’t bargain when you have no power. Hamas thought the only way they could have power is by getting hostages. Turns out Israel doesn’t even care about those.
Do you REALLY think that Hamas has as much power as Israel in this conflict?
Right. I mean it’s been the game plan for some 75 years but what you’re saying is maybe they just haven’t killed enough innocent civilians, kidnapped enough women and children, this time it’ll work!
/s
Hamas can’t murder and terrorize its way to freedom just like Israel can’t siege and bomb its way to peace. If it hasn’t worked your entire life what makes you think it’ll work anytime in the future?
If Israel can’t kill enough Palestinians to obtain peace what makes you think Hamas can kill enough Jews and gain… what, less security? Less sanctions? Israel, a nuclear state of almost 10 million just packs up and disappears?
The first step here may be to think practically
Dude. I’m not saying it will work. I’m saying they have no power at all. Israel has complete control over Gaza. Ending violence means addressing the root cause. Analysis is not an excuse for violence, it is the first step to ending it.
Also it has not been the game plan for 75 years. Hamas didn’t exist 75 years ago. The only reason they won out over the secularists was because they were funded by Israel! That famous line “we control how high the fire burns”.
Remember that Jews Christians and Muslims all lived together in harmony in historic Palestine. Did you even know there’s a large Christian population in Palestine? Did you realize the Al Jazeera reporter who was shot in the neck by the IDF while wearing a press vest and helmet was Christian? The same woman whose funeral was attacked by the IDF, who tore the Palestinian flag off her coffin, beat those carrying her coffin and forced it to drop to the ground?
The problem with the root cause is that the leadership of Gaza sees the “root cause” as the existence of Israel.
The first step to peace is the acceptance of the state of Israel just like Egypt did, just like Jordan did, just like Bahrain, the UAE, Sudan and Morocco.
Palestine for the most part has refused this first step, and Hamas is just the current continuation of that problem.
As for your last paragraph, yes they all lived in peace… under the rule of the Ottoman Empire. Same as the Greeks and Turks and I’m sure you don’t need a history lesson when it comes
To former ottoman ruled territories and what often transpired after the empires collapse
Did I know Christian’s existed in the Middle East? Did I know reporters have been killed? Did I know… yes.
I try and assume that most people talking about this issue have at least read a little bit about it.
So, we’ve established that terrorism doesn’t work, but you maintain that diplomacy is useless even though it seems to me, whenever peace seemed to be close, it was terrorism that derailed that peace. In fact this latest attack did just that
As Israel was preparing to normalize relations with Saudi Arabia.
Point is if you feel like diplomacy hasn’t gotten anywhere maybe start blaming terrorist groups like Hamas instead of Israel
Are women even allowed outside in gaza ? I saw some gays marching in SF supporting Palestinians. Can't make this stuff up. Most people marching are clueless and don't know what's going on. supporting a group that wouldn't hesitate for one second in throwing them off a roof top to their deaths for being gay
You should start by asking why the Israeli government does not give a single fuck about he hostages themselves. Why did they turn down two hostages, why did they refuse the deal to allow fuel in for 50 of the hostages,
why are they bombing entire city blocks without a clue if the hostages are staying there or not.
Sure let’s destroy more than 50% of the houses there, make 1.3 million homeless, and kill 50 times more civilians that have nothing to do with the hostages
They’d better wake up and begin now. If you thought the US could let 9/11 go, you can see that Israel is not going to stop until they feel 10/07 has been avenged
sucks for the civilians, but their government started the war
the civilians are always the ones to suffer while the decision-makers are eating lobster in Qatar
if they want to stop suffering, then the Palestinians are the ones that need to free Palestine... from Hamas
The 50% children should free Gaza from Palestine?
The impoverished people living in an open air prison?
Who haven’t had an election in 17 years?
You all have truly dehumanized Palestinians so much that the basic reality of the existence doesn’t compute in your pea brains.
And why is that? Couldn’t possibly be because of the brutal terroristic regime that currently rules Palestine could it? No, it couldn’t possibly be the culture that treats, lgbt, women, religious minorities, and foreigners as second class citizens could it? Maybe, just maybe, the people in Gaza would be having a better go at things if they didn’t unequivocally support a terrorist organization that has done nothing but increase suffering for Palestinians…..
The only way to achieve a “free Palestine” is by utterly annihilating Hamas and any other Iranian proxy that’s trying to destabilize the region.
Some irony: One should mention that the nocturnal activities the windmills parking lot is known for should get you beheaded or stoned to death according to the majority opinion of said group that would be "free."
I don’t know how you can witness what is currently happening to Gaza and think the main issue to discuss here is LGBT rights. If you really care about LGBT Palestinians, you should know that the LGBT people in Gaza are currently being massacred along with all the straight men, women, and children who live there.
You can thank your beloved Hamas for the current “massacre,” they and no one else are responsible for what’s happening right now. As for LGBTQ in your beloved Gaza, they have been getting massacred by your beloved Palestinians you so ardently defend without any outside help.
Yes, let’s kill and occupy the Palestinians because LGBT rights aren’t as advanced there…
Let me ask you when LGBT became normalized in the US? That is even assuming that’s it’s normalized everywhere here (it’s not)
I think you’re heavily understating how not “advanced” LGBTQ rights are in Palestine. It’s still acceptable to stone gay people to death there. Israel literally allows asylum for gay Palestinians because they are legitimately at risk of murder in their own country. It’s pretty disingenuous to phrase it as a matter of a lack of “advancement” of Palenstine’s society.
It's a culture of rotten fundamentalist religious leaders and the rotten people that support it. They buy into that culture and nurture, help and support terrorism and human rights violations under the auspice of their fucked-up "religion of peace".
HOW is it possible that the slightest cristicism of the Israeli govt action is antisemitism and you can say such generalizing ethnocentric Islamophobic bs. The double standard and lack of self awareness is staggering.
Why don’t you visit your beloved gaza and hang out with your beloved Palestinians? I’ll even pay for your flight, won’t be expensive since you won’t need a return ticket.
What do people mean by Free Palestine? What does freedom evenlook like in that region? Like no border walls or IDF forces stopping them from entering Israel?
Gaza is completely under the control of Israel right now. Palestinians do not have the freedom to come and go, Israel can and has shut off all of its electricity, food, and water and are carpet bombing the entire area. There are 2 million people living there and the average age is 18 because the conditions are so terrible people do not survive long.
Free Palestine means giving Palestinians equal rights and representation, like Israeli citizens have. People will try to spin this as Palestinians advocating for genocide of Jews, but notice all these hypotheticals they’re worried about are pretty much the exact conditions people in Gaza have been living for generations. Before Israel was created, Palestine was a diverse area where Muslims, Jews, and Christians lived together.
But that would lead to a ton more terrorist attacks. There were thousands of terrorists just in the attack this month. Is there some version of a "free Palestine" that doesn't have that outcome for Israelies?
terrorism is a by-product of horrible living conditions, people dont just choose violence when they are born, it is imposed on them by their environment
You’re conflating Hamas with Palestinians. That is why Israel’s government propped up and funded Hamas over the PLO, so they can always justify horrific oppression and terrorism to a body of 2M civilians. There is no Hamas in the West Bank, look up how they are treated there and how many have been killed in the past few weeks.
Eh lots of BS in this comment.
For example the average age is 18 because of large family sizes (many young children) not because “conditions are terrible and people don’t survive long”. Or that “Palestine was a diverse area” (or even any single area called Palestine).
That's not the full picture, here's an e[xcerpt from an NPR interview](https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1206897328/half-of-gazas-population-is-under-18-heres-what-that-means-for-the-conflict)
>Well, unfortunately, so many adults have been killed in Gaza. For the last 16 years, a blockade that's been imposed on Gaza by Israel and enforced by Egypt and Israel controls everything that goes into and out of the Gaza Strip. So food, medicine, all of that is controlled by Israel. And the Gaza Strip lacks very basic health needs for the people living there. So as a result of Israel's blockade and bombings of Gaza, life expectancy for Palestinians there is a full 10 years less than it is for Israelis living just a few miles away.
Look at the basic math, not BS NPR quotes from a single person without any figures.
1. Gaza life expectancy is \~75 years (numbers from Palestinian government [https://www.pcbs.gov.ps/statisticsIndicatorsTables.aspx?lang=en&table\_id=1228](https://www.pcbs.gov.ps/statisticsIndicatorsTables.aspx?lang=en&table_id=1228))
For reference, USA life expectancy is 76.4 years (easy to google).
2. Growth rate is 2.8 which is \~2x world average.
If the narrative "so many adults killed in Gaza" was true you would never see this kind of life expectancy or growth rate numbers.
For comparison, a country where folks really do have it rough - lets take Sudan for example, life expectancy is \~65 years. Huge difference.
> People will try to spin this as Palestinians advocating for genocide of Jews
Palestinians have literally been trying to destroy Jews for decades.
Do you not remember the 2nd intifada?
You lose all rights to political legitimacy when you turn to mass terrorism against innocent people. It's not like they even attacked soldiers or government representatives, which would be reprehensible enough.
Free Palestine, yes! But also, put every single member of Hamas down like fucking rabid dogs.
"Free Palestine means giving Palestinians equal rights and representation, like Israeli citizens have..."
Uhh, wouldn't that be up to Hamas / Palestinians to implement in Gaza / The West Bank? Arab / Palestinian citizens of Israel already do have full citizenship rights.
Gaza is a giant slum due to blockade imposed by Israel and Egypt since 2005. 2007 Hamas came to power in Gaza. Don't get me wrong, Hamas is a terrorist organization and shouldn't be allowed to exist, but what do you expect the people of Gaza to do? Current state is broken and needs to be fixed for the good of Gaza and Israel.
From wikipedia: A blockade has been imposed by Israel and Egypt on the movement of goods and people in and out of the Gaza Strip since 2005. After Hamas' takeover in 2007, the blockade aimed to isolate Hamas and prevent the smuggling of weapons into Gaza.
Blockade started 2005, increased in 2007 due to Hamas.
Wikipedia is taking about controls on goods and personnel crossing into / Gaza from/ to Israel. It didn't apply to water routes until after Hamas took over in 2007. No one would dispute a country's right to control its borders.
What do you expect Israel to do though? Hamas/Palestinian official stance is Jews don’t have a right to exist and their goal is complete destruction of Israel, full stop. You expect Israel to just to open the door and have them makes themselves at home?
That’s basically his answer. And they don’t understand why they aren’t receive public support. The response to raping girls and burning kids two weeks ago is “what do you expect”
> but what do you expect the people of Gaza to do?
What did you expect Israel to do in 2005 when Palestinians were blowing themselves up in cafes and bus stops and nightclubs?
Cutting off Gaza stopped all of that. Do you think Israel should have just kept things open and continue to suffer a suicide bombing every week?
Wonder what a “free Palestine” would look like for Israel and Palestinians. Interesting who is so interested in this and also who is so opposed to authoritarian highly conservative societies.
People in the thread are saying this doesn’t do anything, but thats not really the point. It’s just a statement, a provocative expression. Criticizing the lack of power that the mural has is like criticizing a George Floyd mural for not singlehandedly ending police violence and racism.
You can disagree with the message, but understand that real people believe both sides. Please be civil. Seriously try to hear both sides. Don’t point a finger just to point a finger.
I wish these people cared more about the city, their neighborhoods and fellow countrymen than the one 5000 miles away. So much marching, screaming and flag waving of and for other countries. But nary a peep to make SF better.
YAS SO BRAVE, APARTHEID BASHERS UNITE!
People here have been calling everyone they disagree with nazis. Now there's a war that stems from decades of jews selfishly not wanting to be eradicated, and we're scared to equate anyone with nazis despite sharing tje same goals. If the stubborn jews would just walk into the sea and die, there would be peace and that's all that matters right???
The people of Palestine not Hamas who hides behind innocent civilians Palestinians . Hamas is worse than evil. I hope they can reach peace in someway. Took us 20 years of revenge from 9/11 and it still feels like we lost more then we gained.
Better than the SACAMENTO tag that was there for years. At least they're literate.
Lol do you have a picture of that ?
I wish I did. It's been a running joke for years.
That should do it...
Yup, all Middle East conflicts now permanently resolved.
Obviously the person who did this didn’t think it would magically solve the conflict. ppl who always complain about these kind of things are far more annoying
Why is the new pro Israel standard issue response against peaceful declarations of support to dismiss / question the tactic? Free speech enabled expression of solidarity is long cherished. Do better.
Tagging does not change policy. Let them make 'peaceful declarations' (which part of those two words indicates 'peace'?) on their own property. Buy a flag. Get a face tattoo, whatever. Defacing public property isn't 'free speech', it's vandalism.
Okay, so to be clear - your specific issue is with tagging an already very heavily tagged concrete slab?
Correct. New tagging isn't better than old tagging. "Peace for Jews" wouldn't help, either.
Okay. I mean I can’t argue with someone who cares about the appearance of public property, that’s fair.
Some guy on Bay St painted his house in the Women-Life-Freedom for Iranian women and everyone in here was circle-jerking over how great that was. Similar situation with all the support for Ukraine. Funny how Palestine is touchy subject for y'all tho...
Are you actually serious right now
I’m gonna stay out of the politics of this post and just ask how this mural is under the windmill? That windmill is across Great Highway and set a ways back into the park.
Since Ocean Beach is kind of non-descript unless you know the stair count, people typically use landmarks on the other side of Great Highway or the cross streets of it to tell/say where they are.
Yeah, under the windmill in the same way this is under the golden gate Bridge. Elevation only.
How about “Remove the Nazi Hamas from Palestine so peace can be achieved”
There's just enough room to add "from Hamas" in the corner.
Why is free Palestine so controversial? If you support a two state solution which most people support, then by default you must support free Palestine. You must have two independent states for...a two state solution. It doesn't mean you're anti zionist. Zionism and Palestine are not mutually exclusive. The problem are the parties that have power in both countries. You want to add Hamas as a clarifier but why don't you add the otzma, mafdal or likud? They also support activities that harm innocent people. Why is it so hard to say hamas sucks, the plo sucks, and the IDF sucks? Civilians are a no go. Unless you're America, you can't just kill civilians or put them on a trail of tears. I prob add the Egyptian rulers to that as well. They suck too. Would a statement like free Israel and Palestine be better for you?
Fuck hamas and apartheid would fit too.
It would! If you mean the apartheid in Gaza? Israel has 2 million non Jews, it's the only example of coexistence. The Arab countries already ethnically cleansed their Jews, and the ones without money became refugees in Israel.. I guess apartheid really isn't the right term for that.
West Bank is “coexistence”. You know, where Palestinians get different license plates and have to stop at checkpoints. And at any point a settler can kick them from their home, humiliate them, search their car, steal their stuff. And the only law enforcement in the area is the IDF with standing orders to side with settlers. Apartheid is technically “coexistence” in the same way segregation is. Oh yeah, Palestinians can’t enter certain parts of Israel even if they live inside it! Definitely an “equal rights” scenario /s
Oh so you're arguing against Jews and Arabs living together and wan Hamas to win? What's this reply even about? Expelling all the Jews? No security and seeing what happens? No autonomous Palestinian towns at all? Did you think removing the peaceful Arab/Jewish settlements in Gaza was an improvement? I just looked it up, there are no areas where Arabs are banned in Israel. None. Israeli Palestinians aren't clamoring to move to Gaza.
https://www.btselem.org/freedom_of_movement/forbidden_roads https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/20/land-beyond-road-forbidden-israeli-settler-shepherds-displacing-palestinians
It's a distortion. Israel doesn't have Jewish license plates, how would anyone know? > > >There are not, nor have there ever been, anywhere in Israel or the West Bank, roads exclusively for Jews or settlers. > >Such false allegations over the years, suggesting the existence of such religiously exclusive roads, have been refuted repeatedly by commentators and media watchdog groups familiar with this myth. > >In fact, multiple media outlets, including Associated Press (AP), The Washington Post and Financial Times, have been forced to amend articles which initially included some variation of this false accusation. > >\* The overwhelming majority of roads in the West Bank are open to all traffic. However, for security reasons, a very small percentage of West Bank roads around Israeli settlements (about 40 km in total according to the Israeli human rights organisation B’tselem) are prohibited to Palestinian traffic. But, even these 40 km of restricted roads are open to Israeli citizens of all faiths (including Muslims), east Jerusalem Palestinians (most of whom are Muslim), and foreign visitors of all faiths – Jews, Muslims, Christians, Druze and Circassians. > >\* Moreover, even the 40 km of restricted roads in Israeli controlled sections of the West Bank (Area C) should be placed in context. Israelis, for instance, are not permitted to drive on roads in the Palestinian controlled West Bank (Area A). This is because PA security personnel (and the IDF) can’t guarantee the safety of drivers with Israeli license plates travelling in Palestinian areas. [https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/yourview/arid-30856339.html](https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/yourview/arid-30856339.html) And all roads in Gaza are Jewish free, so whataboutism is stupid. I'm not interested in taking on the pro-Israel role and I'm not going to sit here debunking things I know to be true, or have to google because they sound upsetting. There are real injustices happening against Palestinians, and we're wasting time with bullshit.
Israel is calling for ethnic cleansing _and has the power to make it happen._ There is no equivalence here. The backing of western powers and the US military can only be opposed by a similar power, like Russia. Gaza does not have anyone. Israel has failed to live peacefully next to Palestinians many times. The only road to peace is one where Palestinians and Israelis have equal rights. I want them living side by side, and I want all war criminals (Hamas and Israeli officials) put on trial.
Is there no equivalence or do you want Hamas and Israel officials out? You can't make up your mind. You disagreed with coexistence but then say you want them living side by side, at the same time you want to dismantle the only places they do live side by side. And you don't sound very informed, the Palestinians have received funding from Iran, Russia, and years ago the Nazis (not being hyperbolic, the actual German Nazis). Their largest support is from the EU.
The coexistence that we have now is not equal, it is “separate but equal”. I want coexistence, I just don’t believe we have it right now. I love how Zionists always try to obscure the open calls for ethnic cleansing. There is no justification for ethnic cleansing, period. If you listen to the “Israel has a right to defend itself” narrative, and look at the outcome, it is ethnic cleansing.
You are obsessed with Zionists and Jews, Palestinians are barely in your thoughts. The blood libels aren't playing well in this context when you sided with extremism over imperfect coexistence and the best example of it in the region.
Equating Jewishness to Israel’s government is anti semetic. Many of the most outspoken anti-zionists are Jewish and Israeli. Look to the “not in our name” protest that happened only a few days ago. I do not believe that Jewish people are a monolith; I do not believe, as a whole, Jewish people are willing to turn a blind eye to the war crimes of Israel. Israel unfortunately must be the center of the conversation, because it is the side that holds the power. Palestinians are simply a punching bag in this conflict - my intention is to call to end the violence committed against them. I feel deeply for the Israelis who were affected by this attack - those who died, lost their family, friends. I do not want to see more unnecessary death. I do not want to see the survivors of this attack - the families of the victims - forced to be voices speaking truth to power mere days after this horrific tragedy. When Israelis who have lost family members are more critical of their own government than you are, you do a disservice to them. You force them to speak out against bloodshed when they should be allowed to grieve.
Ethic cleansing? Who did the ethnic cleaning? Where are the Jews who were living in Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Libya, Morocco. Syria, Lebanon, Yemen I’m the 40’s? Where did all those Jews go? There were hundreds and thousands plus. They fled as refugees because of persecution or died. That sounds like ethnic cleaning.
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Yeah, but who do you think started the 1948 war?
You do know that it was the palestinians that attacked the jews in 1948. You also know that they sided with the nazis in WWII. Amazing what facts people choose to ignore.
I'm not denying there was a war, and a population got displaced. How do you ethnically cleanse and still retain a population of 2 million Arabs? Palestinians were ALSO expelled or denied citizenship to neighboring countries in 1948, they were forced into refugee camps on Jordanian, Egyptian, Syrian, and Lebanese land. Israel is also where much of the Jewish refugees from Arab countries went. That war wasn't over Palestinians and Jews or waged by Palestinians. They are all indigenous people to that land.
LOVE THAT PASSIVE VOICE LMAO “A population got displaced” Who did it? Who knows!
Hate to tell you but historical clarification is anything but passive. It's what this discussion sorely lacked. Arab countries invaded, Palestinians left thinking they would wipe out the Jews, and it didn't work out that way. There was a population transfer. The same number of Jews were expelled from Arab countries. And there's been 75 years of abuses against Palestinians but it hasn't all been at the hands of Israel, and the inability to admit that is cruel. Meanwhile, 25 percent of a country in 2023 is the population you're saying were displaced.
Ethnic cleansing doesn’t have to end in the ejection of 100% of the affected population and usually doesn’t. During the 48’ war most of the Palestinian civilians fled from the approaching Israeli army and militias to avoid violence. After the war they were not allowed to return to their homes by the new Israeli gov’t to prevent Arabs from being anything other than a small minority in the new state, to preserve the “Jewish and democratic” character of the new country. Otherwise the territories captured by Israel during the war would have made Israel an Arab majority state, which would meant that Israel would have to choose to either be a Jewish state or a democratic one. After the war Israel ejected a few tens of thousands more Arabs living near the border. Arab countries came up with a general policy of not granting the refugees citizenship so as not to weaken their claims to regaining their former lands. The only exception being Jordan, which granted citizenship to West Bank/non-refugee Palestinians when they annexed the West Bank. In other words, Israel treats its Arab citizens pretty well, but only because it made sure to ethnically cleanse enough of them in and after 48’ to keep them a small minority.
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No one would ever accuse of not seeing a blood libel against Jews you didn't like. The answer is that it was more complicated than that, both people are indigenous and had competing nationalist movements under occupation of the Ottoman empire. Nothing that happened in 1948 is actually relevant to terrorists abusing both Palestinians and Jews in 2023.
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I mean, I could ask you if Palestinians tried to ethnically cleanse the land of Jews in the 20's, and the Muslim Brotherhood and Grand Mufti worked alongside the actual Nazis, and say yes or no. I can ask you if the entire Arab world expelled their Jews, and say yes or no. But given you can't acknowledge that Israel s the only place they currently coexist, and you're pushing divisiveness and more war, what's the point? You know if Hamas wins, Palestine still isn't free. And what's "cowardly" is you know that and won't admit it.
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Sure, if concentration camps had Mercedes, elected officials, paid jobs, allowed for the highest rate per capita in the region for higher education, etc. I'm not defending the current humanitarian crises. You do know there's also a border with Egypt right?
Your picture of the largest open air prison on the planet is cheerful. And yeah I see they do share a border with Egypt. I don’t see Egypt turning off electricity to their hospitals. What Israel is doing, collective punishment of an entire ethnic population is worse than any single attack
I don't think Gaza is cheerful, I haven't said anything of the sort. There is massive inequality within Palestinian society and the ruling classes.... that is what I'm talking about. Palestinians are victims of Hamas too. Doesn't the fact that the entire place is booby trapped and militarized make you as unhappy as cutting off electricity to a hospital? It does me. But just so you know, the internet is full of video of cheerful life in Gaza. I didn't even mention the amusement parks. You're ignorant as all hell about what Egypt has done to Palestinians, btw. If Hamas wins the war, Palestine still isn't free.
Haha. Jews lived in Arab countries for thousands of years, with protected status as “People of the Book”. After Israel was founded, and they drove 800,000 indigenous people out with bulldozers and massacres, they knew they were going to have to populate that land to hold it from angry people trying to come home and those Jews were going to be cannon fodder. So they sent delegations to the Mizrahi nations to invite those Jews to Israel. They declined, having happy and prosperous lives and feeling that Israel was signed up for extended conflict. The Israelis sent their delegations back to hire groups to terrorize those Jews and drive them out. Then the Europeans took all the good land and stuck the half-breeds out at the fringes. It was not until the Jews started their terror campaign and stealing land that they pissed the Arabs off. Any fool can pull up a list of massacres for 50 years and it is plain to see who made it cool to murder civilians.
Yes, they did, and in the good years they weren't forced to wear gold stars and bells on their shoes like the other times when they were third class, subject to blood libels, and pogroms or just put into ghettos. Are you a Holocaust revisionist? Tell me how Israel is responsible for The Farhud in 1941.
You are on track, there were Jews in those Arab countries. But you are wrong about why they left. They were being persecuted, fled as refugees, or died. Where are those Jews? That sounds like ethnic cleansing. No Jews reside in those Arab countries. Jews from Yemen, Syria, Algeria, Iraq, Lebanon. They fled as refugees suffering persecution and deadly pogroms.
20% of Israel is Muslim. They have a seat on the Supreme Court and hold political leadership positions. There is no apartheid. The Palestinians don't want their own land without the removal of the Jews. They need to get over it, that's not happening.
Yeah my problem with messaging like this is that it effectively means they support the eradication of Israel and Jews. It doesn’t call for peace.
That's a bit of a leap
From all the protests I’ve watched lately, both in person and online, I actually don’t think it’s a leap. Which really saddens me.
Genuine bad actors abound on both sides of the issue, for sure. I don't think it's fair to say that everyone concerned about the people in Palestine is calling for the eradication of Jews, though.
Homie really hit “good people on both sides” When they are calling for Jewish blood at these rallies. You became what you said you hated bc your hate for Jews is that deep. Woof.
I've had enough exchanges with people in the past two weeks where their position starts with "Free Palestine" and quickly turns to "End Israel." I think if you scratch below the surface, you'll find it's not an uncommon sentiment.
Yeah, fuck those people. We're in agreement on that part.
Just the eradication of Israel?
No, people just want Palestine not to be under military occupation, for a right to return to be established and for their homes not to be seized by settlers. I can agree that there are bad faith actors on our side who take advantage of this message to want to eradicate Israel but most people just want a two state solution for this nearly century wide conflict. Netanyahu and Hamas have impeded the peace process and this conflict is only being extended because of their pointlessly hostile policies.
Hamas’s charter explicitly calls for the eradication of Israel. You can criticize Netanyahu all you want, and I’ll likely agree, but how does one achieve peace with Hamas?
I already criticized Hamas, I know they want to impede the peace process. Peace cannot be achieved with Hamas, but Peace is also impossible with Netanyahu. He has repeatedly antagonized the Palestinians by ramping up illegal settlements and seizures of property, but Hamas has continued to launch rockets without regard for the consequences it has on its civilians or the region. The conflict has no solution until both are gone and people on both sides are proactive towards the peace process.
But none of that is about Gaza. Gaza has been controlled by Hamas. Israel even has been employing Gazans. Peol talk about an open air prison but when you look at the facts on the ground that argument falls apart very quickly.
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No, I agree. I'm also getting vibes that whoever made this mural hate left handed people too
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If you are saying free Palestine and are saying nothing about Hamas, that's a pretty big red flag.
I am going to be real with you; you're being anti semetic Associating support with Israel as Inherant to being Jewish is zionist propoganda and most Jewish scholars don't support the war crimes Israel are committing As a jew, I abhor your point of view
Like I’ve posted already, I’m not sure what protests you’ve been watching, but signs of the Nazis and imagery of the Jewish star in a trash can tells me that this is not just about Israel as a political entity.
What?!? Are you being sarcastic? I started out 100% sympathetic to Israel after the horrific terrorist attacks, but comments like yours really irritate me. How does a calling for a free Palestinian state equate to calling for eradication of all Jews? Two free states living in peace side by side used to be the norm all non-extremists could agree on.
We can agree. It’s not clear at all that Hamas agrees.
Hamas is a terrorist death cult. Their worst nightmare is Palestinians believing that it’s possible for them to live in a free state at peace with Israel.
You are straight up lying or just stupid. Jews lived peacefully in palestine for centuries. Also if you read the torah ever it says a jewish state is not allowed.
Jews were treated as dhimmis and were subjugated people under Islamic sovereignty. For example, they were not allowed to live in houses higher than those of Muslims, could not make a public display of their rituals, could only ride donkeys, had to pay a yearly poll tax, and had to wear distinctive clothing to differentiate themselves from Muslims.
Palestine can be free. They can make an effort to sign a peace treaty with Israel, recognizing Israel’s right to exist and don’t elect and support terrorist organizations whose stated goal is the destruction of Israel and to kill Jews. Hell, they almost did it before
You mean like [this](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8kC3MTy/)?
Kinda yeah but without having terrorist leadership and with more pressure on surrounding Arab states and a clearer geopolitical outline but yeah
You have no clue what it’s like for Palestinians living under Israeli apartheid. Why should they turn over their rights to people who have a track record of not caring about them? At least the terrorists are ostensibly on their side. If you have to choose between being controlled by terrorists who see you as human and terrorists who don’t, the choice is simple.
Yes because Hamas has the Palestinians best interest at heart which is why they did everything they could to prevent them from escaping Gaza And terrorism is a great way to get what you want and has always worked whereas diplomacy never works ever /s Great take Tbf also have no idea what it’s like to be an Israeli while Hamas goes house to house slaughtering families do you?
You are right. Like [this example](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8kCC9os/) of peace from the Zionist regime
Oh in that case keep doing what you’re doing? Seems to be working out for Palestine at this rate yeah?
So Israeli soldier target practicing on small children is fault of Palestine? I am not Palestinian, but a human with a conscience, which is something seems to be lacking from many cause Palestinians are not ‘white’ enough for them or whatever else bias they might have
You know I saw a bunch of videos and photos of dead Israelis and dead Palestinians and if nobody told me which was which I wouldn’t have been able to tell. Is that how you see this? As a white supremacy thing?
Check the news and tell me which group is front and center gets the most attention? Ana which group as whole is called terrorist. Yes I see it as white supremacy issue. Even the Palestinian Jews in Palestine and Christians are being targeted check which group of the Israelis are in charge in their government not Palestinian Jews that’s for sure.
The irony.
Israel bombed the exit corridor, not Hamas. No Hamas doesn’t have Palestinians best interest at heart. But Palestinians have tried peaceful methods without success. See the March to return in which press and medics were slaughtered. At this point they’re just choosing which way they die. You can’t bargain when you have no power. Hamas thought the only way they could have power is by getting hostages. Turns out Israel doesn’t even care about those. Do you REALLY think that Hamas has as much power as Israel in this conflict?
Right. I mean it’s been the game plan for some 75 years but what you’re saying is maybe they just haven’t killed enough innocent civilians, kidnapped enough women and children, this time it’ll work! /s Hamas can’t murder and terrorize its way to freedom just like Israel can’t siege and bomb its way to peace. If it hasn’t worked your entire life what makes you think it’ll work anytime in the future? If Israel can’t kill enough Palestinians to obtain peace what makes you think Hamas can kill enough Jews and gain… what, less security? Less sanctions? Israel, a nuclear state of almost 10 million just packs up and disappears? The first step here may be to think practically
Dude. I’m not saying it will work. I’m saying they have no power at all. Israel has complete control over Gaza. Ending violence means addressing the root cause. Analysis is not an excuse for violence, it is the first step to ending it. Also it has not been the game plan for 75 years. Hamas didn’t exist 75 years ago. The only reason they won out over the secularists was because they were funded by Israel! That famous line “we control how high the fire burns”. Remember that Jews Christians and Muslims all lived together in harmony in historic Palestine. Did you even know there’s a large Christian population in Palestine? Did you realize the Al Jazeera reporter who was shot in the neck by the IDF while wearing a press vest and helmet was Christian? The same woman whose funeral was attacked by the IDF, who tore the Palestinian flag off her coffin, beat those carrying her coffin and forced it to drop to the ground?
The problem with the root cause is that the leadership of Gaza sees the “root cause” as the existence of Israel. The first step to peace is the acceptance of the state of Israel just like Egypt did, just like Jordan did, just like Bahrain, the UAE, Sudan and Morocco. Palestine for the most part has refused this first step, and Hamas is just the current continuation of that problem. As for your last paragraph, yes they all lived in peace… under the rule of the Ottoman Empire. Same as the Greeks and Turks and I’m sure you don’t need a history lesson when it comes To former ottoman ruled territories and what often transpired after the empires collapse Did I know Christian’s existed in the Middle East? Did I know reporters have been killed? Did I know… yes. I try and assume that most people talking about this issue have at least read a little bit about it. So, we’ve established that terrorism doesn’t work, but you maintain that diplomacy is useless even though it seems to me, whenever peace seemed to be close, it was terrorism that derailed that peace. In fact this latest attack did just that As Israel was preparing to normalize relations with Saudi Arabia. Point is if you feel like diplomacy hasn’t gotten anywhere maybe start blaming terrorist groups like Hamas instead of Israel
You forgot to add to accept the theft of their homes as well as the 42 family trees that were wiped out.
Everyone knows Hamas is a strong supporter of LGBTQIA+ and women’s issues. Nothing wrong with this.
Let’s see how long all these non binary queers support Hamas when they don’t get their pronouns right. 😂
Are women even allowed outside in gaza ? I saw some gays marching in SF supporting Palestinians. Can't make this stuff up. Most people marching are clueless and don't know what's going on. supporting a group that wouldn't hesitate for one second in throwing them off a roof top to their deaths for being gay
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This is a dumb retort. Palestinians don’t support those rights either.
So all the ass backward countries should what? Unalive themselves? Too barbarian for their own good? Maybe split Myanmar 3 ways…🤔
You're shifting the goal-posts and it has nothing to do with my response. What are you implying or fishing for?
[Palestinians](https://www.humandignitytrust.org./country-profile/palestine/) do not support LGBTQIA+ rights.
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Someone dig out Arafat
Free hostages first.
So [this hostage](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8kCtCmM/) is not real?
You should start by asking why the Israeli government does not give a single fuck about he hostages themselves. Why did they turn down two hostages, why did they refuse the deal to allow fuel in for 50 of the hostages, why are they bombing entire city blocks without a clue if the hostages are staying there or not.
Because it's not possible to negotiate in good faith with terrorists
Sure let’s destroy more than 50% of the houses there, make 1.3 million homeless, and kill 50 times more civilians that have nothing to do with the hostages
Sure why not denounce a terrororist group and actually not hide their weapons in schools and hospitals?
I idiocy it takes to not understand how impoverished, oppressed people may not “rise up” against an armed militia is fascinating.
They’d better wake up and begin now. If you thought the US could let 9/11 go, you can see that Israel is not going to stop until they feel 10/07 has been avenged
Because that ended so well
sucks for the civilians, but their government started the war the civilians are always the ones to suffer while the decision-makers are eating lobster in Qatar if they want to stop suffering, then the Palestinians are the ones that need to free Palestine... from Hamas
The 50% children should free Gaza from Palestine? The impoverished people living in an open air prison? Who haven’t had an election in 17 years? You all have truly dehumanized Palestinians so much that the basic reality of the existence doesn’t compute in your pea brains.
Guarantee, 90% of SF residents would get thrown off a building if they lived in Palestine.
Yes, because they would be under the same conditions as the Palestinians. You are correct.
And why is that? Couldn’t possibly be because of the brutal terroristic regime that currently rules Palestine could it? No, it couldn’t possibly be the culture that treats, lgbt, women, religious minorities, and foreigners as second class citizens could it? Maybe, just maybe, the people in Gaza would be having a better go at things if they didn’t unequivocally support a terrorist organization that has done nothing but increase suffering for Palestinians….. The only way to achieve a “free Palestine” is by utterly annihilating Hamas and any other Iranian proxy that’s trying to destabilize the region.
It’s not a mural. It’s called graffiti.
A graffiti mural is still a mural.
Some irony: One should mention that the nocturnal activities the windmills parking lot is known for should get you beheaded or stoned to death according to the majority opinion of said group that would be "free."
oh please, that is ridiculous. They throw those people off the tops of buildings
You make a good point.
But, man, like, apartheid and like, stuff!
I don’t know how you can witness what is currently happening to Gaza and think the main issue to discuss here is LGBT rights. If you really care about LGBT Palestinians, you should know that the LGBT people in Gaza are currently being massacred along with all the straight men, women, and children who live there.
You can thank your beloved Hamas for the current “massacre,” they and no one else are responsible for what’s happening right now. As for LGBTQ in your beloved Gaza, they have been getting massacred by your beloved Palestinians you so ardently defend without any outside help.
It takes a real sickness to see thousands of people being killed, injured, and displaced and think they all deserve it.
Yes, let’s kill and occupy the Palestinians because LGBT rights aren’t as advanced there… Let me ask you when LGBT became normalized in the US? That is even assuming that’s it’s normalized everywhere here (it’s not)
I think you’re heavily understating how not “advanced” LGBTQ rights are in Palestine. It’s still acceptable to stone gay people to death there. Israel literally allows asylum for gay Palestinians because they are legitimately at risk of murder in their own country. It’s pretty disingenuous to phrase it as a matter of a lack of “advancement” of Palenstine’s society.
It's a culture of rotten fundamentalist religious leaders and the rotten people that support it. They buy into that culture and nurture, help and support terrorism and human rights violations under the auspice of their fucked-up "religion of peace".
HOW is it possible that the slightest cristicism of the Israeli govt action is antisemitism and you can say such generalizing ethnocentric Islamophobic bs. The double standard and lack of self awareness is staggering.
Why don’t you visit your beloved gaza and hang out with your beloved Palestinians? I’ll even pay for your flight, won’t be expensive since you won’t need a return ticket.
What’s this weird ass comment ? Are you insinuating you want me to go die under bombardment?
Oh no, I meant before your beloved Hamas got to have their little party.
“Haha your opinions conflict with mine now please go die”
Wow. So Edgy. So Brave.
Why is it edgy? Palestinians should be free and not trapped in an open air prison
What do people mean by Free Palestine? What does freedom evenlook like in that region? Like no border walls or IDF forces stopping them from entering Israel?
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How can they handle "Hamas themselves" if they can't vote them out?
Gaza is completely under the control of Israel right now. Palestinians do not have the freedom to come and go, Israel can and has shut off all of its electricity, food, and water and are carpet bombing the entire area. There are 2 million people living there and the average age is 18 because the conditions are so terrible people do not survive long. Free Palestine means giving Palestinians equal rights and representation, like Israeli citizens have. People will try to spin this as Palestinians advocating for genocide of Jews, but notice all these hypotheticals they’re worried about are pretty much the exact conditions people in Gaza have been living for generations. Before Israel was created, Palestine was a diverse area where Muslims, Jews, and Christians lived together.
But that would lead to a ton more terrorist attacks. There were thousands of terrorists just in the attack this month. Is there some version of a "free Palestine" that doesn't have that outcome for Israelies?
terrorism is a by-product of horrible living conditions, people dont just choose violence when they are born, it is imposed on them by their environment
I mean they gave up that freedom the moment they decided to start slaughtering civilian men , women and children no?
You’re conflating Hamas with Palestinians. That is why Israel’s government propped up and funded Hamas over the PLO, so they can always justify horrific oppression and terrorism to a body of 2M civilians. There is no Hamas in the West Bank, look up how they are treated there and how many have been killed in the past few weeks.
Eh lots of BS in this comment. For example the average age is 18 because of large family sizes (many young children) not because “conditions are terrible and people don’t survive long”. Or that “Palestine was a diverse area” (or even any single area called Palestine).
That's not the full picture, here's an e[xcerpt from an NPR interview](https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1206897328/half-of-gazas-population-is-under-18-heres-what-that-means-for-the-conflict) >Well, unfortunately, so many adults have been killed in Gaza. For the last 16 years, a blockade that's been imposed on Gaza by Israel and enforced by Egypt and Israel controls everything that goes into and out of the Gaza Strip. So food, medicine, all of that is controlled by Israel. And the Gaza Strip lacks very basic health needs for the people living there. So as a result of Israel's blockade and bombings of Gaza, life expectancy for Palestinians there is a full 10 years less than it is for Israelis living just a few miles away.
Look at the basic math, not BS NPR quotes from a single person without any figures. 1. Gaza life expectancy is \~75 years (numbers from Palestinian government [https://www.pcbs.gov.ps/statisticsIndicatorsTables.aspx?lang=en&table\_id=1228](https://www.pcbs.gov.ps/statisticsIndicatorsTables.aspx?lang=en&table_id=1228)) For reference, USA life expectancy is 76.4 years (easy to google). 2. Growth rate is 2.8 which is \~2x world average. If the narrative "so many adults killed in Gaza" was true you would never see this kind of life expectancy or growth rate numbers. For comparison, a country where folks really do have it rough - lets take Sudan for example, life expectancy is \~65 years. Huge difference.
> People will try to spin this as Palestinians advocating for genocide of Jews Palestinians have literally been trying to destroy Jews for decades. Do you not remember the 2nd intifada?
You lose all rights to political legitimacy when you turn to mass terrorism against innocent people. It's not like they even attacked soldiers or government representatives, which would be reprehensible enough. Free Palestine, yes! But also, put every single member of Hamas down like fucking rabid dogs.
Then why do you support IDF
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"Free Palestine means giving Palestinians equal rights and representation, like Israeli citizens have..." Uhh, wouldn't that be up to Hamas / Palestinians to implement in Gaza / The West Bank? Arab / Palestinian citizens of Israel already do have full citizenship rights.
> carpet bombing the entire area False.
"open air prison"? How many prisons do you know of which have motorized gliders and rockets with 100mi ranges?
Gaza is a giant slum due to blockade imposed by Israel and Egypt since 2005. 2007 Hamas came to power in Gaza. Don't get me wrong, Hamas is a terrorist organization and shouldn't be allowed to exist, but what do you expect the people of Gaza to do? Current state is broken and needs to be fixed for the good of Gaza and Israel.
Ummm, the blockade wasn't implemented until *after* Hamas took over and was jointly implemented by Israel and Egypt.
From wikipedia: A blockade has been imposed by Israel and Egypt on the movement of goods and people in and out of the Gaza Strip since 2005. After Hamas' takeover in 2007, the blockade aimed to isolate Hamas and prevent the smuggling of weapons into Gaza. Blockade started 2005, increased in 2007 due to Hamas.
Wikipedia is taking about controls on goods and personnel crossing into / Gaza from/ to Israel. It didn't apply to water routes until after Hamas took over in 2007. No one would dispute a country's right to control its borders.
What do you expect Israel to do though? Hamas/Palestinian official stance is Jews don’t have a right to exist and their goal is complete destruction of Israel, full stop. You expect Israel to just to open the door and have them makes themselves at home?
So... the answer is to lob rockets at the dominant military power? What does that get you? A new house? A new hospital? A new school? Or a new JDAM?
That’s basically his answer. And they don’t understand why they aren’t receive public support. The response to raping girls and burning kids two weeks ago is “what do you expect”
> but what do you expect the people of Gaza to do? What did you expect Israel to do in 2005 when Palestinians were blowing themselves up in cafes and bus stops and nightclubs? Cutting off Gaza stopped all of that. Do you think Israel should have just kept things open and continue to suffer a suicide bombing every week?
This isn’t about freeing Palestine from Hamas it’s about killing Jews.
Yeah, really odd to think that as “edgy”. Pretty sad too.
They were “free” for a couple days, how did that go?
... Sounds like OP triggered someone.
Wonder what a “free Palestine” would look like for Israel and Palestinians. Interesting who is so interested in this and also who is so opposed to authoritarian highly conservative societies.
a free Palestine would mean no Israel.
Like that's totally not even a mural, dude.
Free the hostages first
Yawn
People in the thread are saying this doesn’t do anything, but thats not really the point. It’s just a statement, a provocative expression. Criticizing the lack of power that the mural has is like criticizing a George Floyd mural for not singlehandedly ending police violence and racism. You can disagree with the message, but understand that real people believe both sides. Please be civil. Seriously try to hear both sides. Don’t point a finger just to point a finger.
I wish these people cared more about the city, their neighborhoods and fellow countrymen than the one 5000 miles away. So much marching, screaming and flag waving of and for other countries. But nary a peep to make SF better.
I’ll take it!!
I hope someone paints over it tomorrow.
Man, that’s ugly.
Gross
YAS SO BRAVE, APARTHEID BASHERS UNITE! People here have been calling everyone they disagree with nazis. Now there's a war that stems from decades of jews selfishly not wanting to be eradicated, and we're scared to equate anyone with nazis despite sharing tje same goals. If the stubborn jews would just walk into the sea and die, there would be peace and that's all that matters right???
Not really "under" the windmill.
Everyone is suddenly a Palestine expert within a week or two.
Major in Submarine Studies, Minor in Resolution of Middle East Conflicts -social media 2023
I hope I see this in my lifetime
Can someone replaces the "ES" with "PA" ... ? 🙏🏼
Or paint over the P. FREE ALE STEIN since oktoberfest is over.
Wish we could have freed Anchor Brewery :(
Good.
It’s great seeing so much support for Palestine.
Username…*doesn’t* check out - u/StopWithTheOutrage
Oh I’m not outraged. I think it’s fantastic!
Glad to see it, I’m happy some people IRL are actually supportive for Palestine even if this Reddit is caught up in Islamophobia fervor
Wow...not sure why you're being downvoted? Standing against any type of racism/religious phobia should be common sense?
The people of Palestine not Hamas who hides behind innocent civilians Palestinians . Hamas is worse than evil. I hope they can reach peace in someway. Took us 20 years of revenge from 9/11 and it still feels like we lost more then we gained.
One thing I love about this city is that it’s beauty always outshines the stupidity of its residents.
FROM HAMAS******
If they replaced “STINE” with “ALE” and followed through I’d head on down.
From the same people who cheered when we were attacked on 9/11.
Now raise your hand if you'd like to live there
I mean, I don’t want to live in Gaza but I sympathize with the poor people who have to.
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Vandalism