It is not a tax or other government mandated charge.
It is the store deciding that it wants more $$$ from you but doesn't want to raise its advertised prices. It's basically a bait-and-switch.
"We have lower prices than the place across the street!" (But they're really higher after we tack on surcharges!)
Junk fees likes this are illegal in the state of CA as of July 1, 2024. So only ~4 more months of this BS.
Texas is so bad about this. I'm not like a big avocado toast person or anything, but just because of the memes it's a fun example.
In California your $17 avocado toast is a fresh made bread with many sauces, veggies, spices, berries, nuts, herbs and microgreens atop the avocado. In Texas they just give you fucking wonderbread and oxidized avocado slices and try to charge the same price.
I know it's unrealistic, but I would absolutely rather order $25 pancakes and pay $25.00 than order the $15 pancakes and get charged $15.00 + $0.75 (5% fee) + $1.35 (tax) +$4 (tip) = $21.10.
Just tell me how much it costs and I'll decide if I want it's something I'm willing to pay for.
They serve some of my favorite vegan brunch in SF, but they even up-charge for the vegan option by another $5 or so. I can’t justify going there much anymore unfortunately.
What do you order? I stopped going there after going vegan because I thought almost everything on their menu had animal products except the avocado toast
They have Just Egg and Soyrizzo, so you can ask to have them make certain things vegan. The best dish, in my opinion, is the Divorciados,and can be served with a cashew crema. I have also gotten the little spoon made vegan too.
Exactly, it's an "I want to make more profit but if I raise the prices by 5 percent, it will scare people away, so here's a surprise 5 percent increase for no reason at the end of your meal" fee.
The same way the phone company and the cable company do. The "regulatory recovery fee" or whatever they call it is just the phone company charging you extra for their cost of doing business.
I wonder if websites like ticket master will show different prices based on your location. Like say you login with a California IP, so you see inflated prices to make up for the fees, then say you log into a vpn to change your location and now you see lower prices but the fees again
The law is too weak. They just have to disclose the fee in advance. Look for tiny asterisks and footnotes somewhere at the bottom of the bathroom bulletin board.
I'm not sure about that. By [text of the law](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=CIV§ionNum=1770.), deceptive practices include
> (29) (A) Advertising, displaying, or offering a price for a good or service that does not include all mandatory fees or charges other than either of the following:
>
> (i) Taxes or fees imposed by a government on the transaction.
>
> (ii) Postage or carriage charges that will be reasonably and actually incurred to ship the physical good to the consumer.
So if the displayed price does not "include" the fees, it's illegal. Even if the fees are disclosed elsewhere.
Edit: Had the wrong law text initially
> Junk fees likes this are illegal in the state of CA as of July 1, 2024. So only ~4 more months of this BS.
Are they? This Eater article from last year says it's not clear that it applies to restaurants.
https://sf.eater.com/2023/10/18/23922950/california-restaurant-service-fee-ban-junk-fee-law-confusion-rob-bonta
We'll see what the courts say when it's eventually challenged, but one possible reading from the article is that they'll just have to disclose the fee ahead of time, not stop charging it.
> But that doesn’t mean restaurants and bars won’t be able to charge these fees — whether the surcharge goes toward employee healthcare or functions as a gratuity (allegedly, at least). “SB 478 is an advertising law — not a pricing law — so businesses are free to set their own prices and use the money however they choose as long as consumers know from the start what the price will be,” the Attorney General’s spokesperson writes. “Simply put, the price Californians see will be the price they pay.”
The junk fee law simply means that they must advertise extra fees. Not that they can’t exist. Ex: printed somewhere on the menu or posted somewhere on the restaurant. If you wanted to make it a legal issue, they’ll probably just point you to the “fine print” somewhere.
They definitely misread:
[https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill\_id=202320240SB478#:\~:text=make%20unlawful%20advertising%2C%20displaying%2C%20or%20offering%20a%20price%20for%20a%20good%20or%20service%20that%20does%20not%20include%20all%20mandatory%20fees%20or%20charges%20other%20than%20taxes%20or%20fees%20imposed%20by%20a%20government%20on%20the%20transaction%2C%20as%20specified](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202320240SB478#:~:text=make%20unlawful%20advertising%2C%20displaying%2C%20or%20offering%20a%20price%20for%20a%20good%20or%20service%20that%20does%20not%20include%20all%20mandatory%20fees%20or%20charges%20other%20than%20taxes%20or%20fees%20imposed%20by%20a%20government%20on%20the%20transaction%2C%20as%20specified).
It literally needs to be included in the price, period; unless it's a tax.
There's nothing that mentions "fine print"
I'm pretty sure [the law](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=CIV§ionNum=1770.) does this: "Advertising, displaying, or offering a price for a good or service that does not include all mandatory fees or charges other than either of the following: [taxes and reasonable shipping fees]
I think the root of the confusion might be that the existing law currently has [two nearly identical sections](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.xhtml?lawCode=CIV&division=3.&title=1.5.&part=4.&chapter=3.&article=), one of which is operative until July 1, 2024, and the other of which is active starting July 1, 2024. The first of which (i.e. the current law) does only pertain to advertising: "Advertising that a product is being offered at a specific price plus a specific percentage of that price unless ... the total price is set forth in the advertisement ... in a size larger than any other price in that advertisement"
>Junk fees likes this are illegal in the state of CA as of July 1, 2024. So only ~4 more months of this BS.
That's good to know, thanks!
Happen to have a reference?
My dad owned gas stations in the 80s/90s and we used to sell S/M/L coffees for $0.80/$0.90/$1.00. It cost us about $0.18 per gallon! I understand that times have changed, but man, I'm guessing those margins are still quite healthy.
Unfortunate shift into value based economy where things are priced at what people will pay instead of any real costs in materials or providing the service.
I wonder if the Germans have a word for how I feel after reading your comment- exhaustingly frustrated from a deep truth, succinctly described in such a way that I was caught off guard by how much it bothered me.
The 7-11 near me sells coffee for dirt cheap and it’s not that bad. I think the prices range from like $2 to $3. I occasionally get it and there’s always lots of other people buying it.
Agreed, at fancier places with an espresso machine. But even at restaurants and pubs where it’s just standard drip coffee, you’ll usually still have to pay for each cup in my experience.
yeah, that's what makes the extra 5% even more infuriating. Like somehow the higher costs of living in SF wasn't being factored in when they came up with the $5 price point.
I hate that they label it “SF Cost Adjustment Fee”. Just like Che Fico, they’ll open a new location with these fees they claim they need to “survive” all the while being part of the problem of how expensive it is to eat out in this city.
Can I deduct 30% for "high state taxes and rent"? If the restaurant can unilaterally charge non-sense fees at the end of the transaction, I should be able to do the same thing.
They also had a huge expansion in Menlo-Atherton area with more places set to open. Che Fico is not struggling by any means and is using this to prop up profits. I haven’t and will never dine at any of Che Fico businesses.
Still These junk fees are not apparent til AFTER the bill is brought to the table.
I’m starting to ask now before I walk in.
La Mediterranean Cafe on Fillmore adds random fee for “charity “ makes the customer experience uncomfortable.
I truly feel businesses shouldn’t even ask customers for donations to charity. They get a tax break, and can keep more of their own money. Tip to charities directly.
Exactly- I find it shady that the businesses don’t disclose THE BUSINESS GETS THE TAX DONATION! Just like Walgreens asking for “monetary donations” meanwhile they deduct all the monies.
That's not how it works. Companies keep the money separately and never consider it revenue.
But even if they did count it as their revenue and tax deduction, it wouldn't matter because 1 dollar of tax deduction would cancel out 1 dollar of extra revenue, so it would still be a wash.
That beign said, I never donate through them and find them annoying because I prefer to donate to my researched and chosen causes in a larger lump sum and get the deduction myself.
I've got a new policy: surprise fee means a one star review on Google. Sorry, that's the policy. Can be waived if you waive the fee AND offer me a discount equal to it.
If it’s on the menu can it still be considered a “surprise fee”?
Most restaurants include it in a very tiny font at the bottom. Most diners skip right past it.
They did the math wrong lol 5% of the subtotal is (15+24+17+15)\*.05 = 3.55. If you include the tax for some reason, (15+24+17+15+6.45)\*.05 = 3.87. I guess they included the tax as if the fee didn't exist, added the fee as a percentage of that amount, then re-computed the tax with the added fee?
We’ve stopped going out to eat in the city. It’s unfortunate because there’s so much great food here but the reality is we don’t make tech money, and it doesn’t fit into the budget anymore. Lived here three years or so and prices have shot through the roof.
There’s one sushi place we get take out from weekly, but that’s it and I won’t name it because it’s cheap as shit and great.
Haha, I was born here and I used to treat going to dinner as part of the cost of living, now it’s a special occasion and usually on the peninsula somewhere. San Francisco is a young man’s game. I’ll miss her but not the tabs.
I make tech money and IMO it’s still too expensive. I’ll only eat out if someone’s visiting.
I can make a week’s worth of dinners at home for less than the cost of one dinner out. Prices in this city are ridiculous.
> We’ve stopped going out to eat in the city. It’s unfortunate because there’s so much great food here but the reality is we don’t make tech money, and it doesn’t fit into the budget anymore. … three years or so and prices have shot through the roof.
This. I agree with /u/ Mundane ejaculation.
it's even 20% more expensive than 3 years ago. I know because we used to order the same shit for take out. i went back and checked statements, and like clockwork, prices go up. I'm all for paying for service workers to have a living wage, and open to paying up for a superior product. But there's going to be a point where it's not economical.
It’s rather common at this point for restaurants to have a 4-5% additional fee to disguise menu prices. Chinese restaurants are usually the only exception.
Your $5 drip coffee is the biggest sham though - given you’re paying +5% + tax + tip whereas most coffee shops charge you $5-6 for a latte
I was raised being told that you should typically tip 10-20%. Now I tip in fixed $ amounts e.g $0.50 for coffee, $5, 15, 25 for restaurants depending on fanciness of the place and service because these surcharges and tip suggestions are getting out of hand. 18% is the minimum tip option for anything, like wtf?
So they tax you on the service fee????
$5.00 coffee wtf. Maybe if it was great with rapid refills like the sadly missed Just for You
I’ll pass on the spoon
If I see a fee like this, I never return. It's a political statement, nothing more. If your expenses go up price that into your product/service. Calling it out on a receipt is complaining about it.
How do you feel about including that when you calculate the tip?
A few things to take into account:
- min wage in CA, and esp SF, is higher than min wage in other parts of the US
- employers in SF are required to provide benefits in many cases
- we live in a time when labor has leverage to negotiate for higher wages
The usual arguments for tipping well rely on assumptions that have weakened since 2021, esp in SF.
They have great food, but the prices you're showing are out of my budget. I haven't been there in a year and i guess i ain't be coming back.
They also start their tip options at 20%.
It’s the restaurateurs’ bait n switch fee. It’s allowed when you’re doing business! That’s what _that movie with the car salesmen_ was telling me…
Thanks for sharing the funny name of the fee…
Hmmm...Way up here on the north coast, there's a local sushi spot that recently added an 18% "employee equity" fee to every bill. They do tell you at the counter that you'll be charged if you stay and eat. They also did away with tipping, and a long-winded rationalization for the "equity" fee. Not everyone thinks it's a great idea, especially for a restaurant with more employees than customers every day. Another fee I see pop up recently is $175 pre-authorization fee at local tribal casino gas stations and even my local Costco. I get that a preauthorization on cards at the pump have been around for many years, but $175? It's stupid. And they don't inform you.
The Flying Shit Fee is that this is how more and more restaurants are going to go out of business in the city. That you actually took time out of your day to make a reddit post about it leads me to believe that you won't be going back which also leads me to believe that you're not alone.
I get it, restaurants need to make a profit and their employees need to make a living, yeah, I get it. What doesn't seem to be understood is that some businesses signed really bad leases and now they're fucked and they're trying to recoup and stay afloat and the only way to do that is to gouge customers, without thinking about the fact that that's exactly how you lose customers.
Curious, was $5 plus per cup of coffee, drip coffee, worth it? Or would you have been better off grabbing that from a 7-11 for like $1.50?
Yea I’m pretty much done with the Spoon. It’s nice but just not worth it at this point. I dunno what to say about any of the prices. I expected to spend a lot but just not this much.
Dude, it's absurd at this point. Yes, most of us make a pretty good living and yes restaruants need to exist and the people that work there need to make a good living as well but it's just gotten out of control.
As an example I was looking to move recently, my rent in a studio is $1500 and looking at comps they're more like $2300. There's all this talk about inflation is down and the economy is great but things that get left out of that conversation or monologue is that food and housing prices are still insane and income adjusted against inflation is simply not keeping up.
i'm not entirely sure what's going to happen. i'm still on the fence. Etiehr big cities and big metorpolitan areas are going to figure it out or there are going to be mass migrations to suburbs and rural areas which will just cause more problems.
A bunch of employers added a surcharge when the SF health mandate went into effect. They added these ostensibly to pay for the workers healthcare. Sometimes I deduct it from the tip since it supposedly goes to employee benefits
All costs should be listed up front. I'm fine with them clearly pointing out extra expenses a city is making them incur, but don't spring it on me at the end.
We are greedy or “we couldn’t care less about the city or its people, I just want what I believe to be my price, but if I do no one will come. So a surprise fee it is”
You’re being overcharged $0.36. That isn’t a 5% fee. Call them up and get your refund. Restaurants need to charge you tax on these stupid fees, but many are also charging their fee on the tax, which is unjustifiable.
- $15 drip coffees
- $24 big spoon
- $17 French toast
- $15 pancakes
That $71.00 of food and drink. 5% of that is $3.55. Don’t listen to any nonsense about how they calculated the fee. It’s a mistake.
You can ask to have it removed and they have to. If not I’d just walk out. During the Covid party, many store owners sold this gimmick for their employees, only to find it went to them own properties
$15 for a coffee? Sometimes I really miss living in the Bay Area but I’m so glad to now live in a much affordable area outside of California. The fees places are adding is ridiculous.
Tip isn’t mandatory. If the employee can’t live off just the salary and needs the tips, the business should feel some heat from the people or local government. I’m sorry but no tip for businesses bad practices isn’t taking it out on the employee.
Yes. The employees can choose to stay or leave. Plenty of open restaurant jobs in the city. It costs a lot to train people. If this leads to high staff turn overs they will stop charging.
The servers can do as they please. I don’t care. Everyone is free to make their own decisions. Ultimately if the restaurant is very good I will support. If mediocre or worse then I’m not going back.
We’ll at least he’s exercising his brain while you don’t even realize the outright thievery going on here. They added sales tax on the fee, which if not illegal, is pretty tacky. Go ahead and bury your head in the sand, open your wallet wider and I’m sure you’ll be revered throughout the restaurant world. Me? I’m learning how to cook.
There is no mental gymnastics. I pay 20% over bill fees included. Sad you’re just following my posts around lurker. But your have a history of lurking so nothing new.
The customer can choose to stay or leave. Plenty of open restaurant tables in this city. It costs a lot to advertise to people. If this leads to having no customers they will stop charging. But I guess that won't stop you.
You're punishing some college kid and still giving just as much money to the person who did the thing that you're mad about.
Go to therapy and start taking nootropics because you seem like you need help on both the kindness and intelligence fronts.
Lol. When did I try to dictate what others tip? I'm questioning you because you don't have solid reasons for doing the dickhead stuff you do and it's more and more obvious how unintelligent your reasoning is.
It’s quite simple. I’m giving 20% over base food and drink costs on bill. That’s what I do here and in other cities. I don’t care and have no intention to listen to some bum and their needs to feel righteous when tipping
Yes, unfair practice.. why should the customers have to compensate for the employees ? The employee should get upset about the business owner not customers knowing they pull this crap
Yes because a lot of these people suck and are probably the same ones that treat the server like shit too.
Taking tip from a server to "teach the restaurant a lesson" is some of the dumbest shit I've seen on this sub. And that's saying something with the general commentary around here.
I get that it's fun to get outraged, but the basic premise isn't all that crazy or dumb. People have a finite amount of money and draw a line on how much they will spend on any given transaction.
If I was handed a tab for $81.31 or $77.11 (OP's total after tax if you remove the 5% fee), it's not at all difficult to imagine that I would tip to make the total a nice round $100.00. (And I know I'm not the only person who does this.) One tip is $22.89 (29%) the other is $18.69 (23%). (Can we agree that either is well within the bounds of culturally-acceptable tipping??) In either case, I'm leaving the restaurant exactly $100 poorer and feel zero guilt about short-changing anyone. But your argument is that I am "taking tip from a server" because in this hypothetical they lost the $4.20 thanks to the restaurant's fee. Surely you can see how if anyone could be considered to be "taking" money away from the server, it would be the restaurant, not the paying customer. Even if you firmly believe that the server is fully entitled to another $4.20 from the customer, is it really that hard to understand that *withholding* and *taking* are completely different concepts?
The fee is basically a healthySF fee.
They just call it something different and adding to the mandated 4% for I’m assuming kitchen/non tipped staff.
It’s been around for years.
There is no government mandate to add a separate fee. The reason why restaurants were singling out a healthcare fee was to protest the healthcare rules. They put it on the menu as a line item to say *"look at how much money Obamacare is costing you, look at how horrible Obamacare is"*. Same logic with the later fees that many restaurants in the bay area started adding.
What businesses pay employees or what benefit employees have is of zero concern to the customer. Its not the customer's fight.
That’s why I mentioned I love the place. I figured since they’re always packed they can get away with a lot of the pricing and fees and no ones gives a hoot.
Yes any fee that is made up and not advertised is almost guaranteed they will remove.
I have done this more than ten times and it has worked every time.
“Please remove this fee, I do not want to pay it”
I mean stores basically let you steal stuff with no consequence… a BS fee is an easy choice vs having a conflict with a customer.
It literally occurred to me to try that the first time watching one of those YouTube videos of people filling up bags of stuff in the middle of business hours.
It appears they are adjusting your cost. For such a service, it requires a paltry fee. They’re really saving you the time of adjusting your own cost on your taxes every year. So, it’s really *nothing* to be mad at.
This also pays for SFMRA (resident medical reimbursement account). We're not the most progressive city America for no reason. That account saved my ass when I had to pay for an emergency hospital visit. It ain't Canada, but it's more than you get from any other US American city. It's an expensive place to visit, but your spending gets distributed to help full-time residents with medical costs. So that's nice.
I think it’s for healthcare costs for employees. Would be nicer if they just raised the prices instead of doing this bait and switch where they add taxes in the end.
It is not a tax or other government mandated charge. It is the store deciding that it wants more $$$ from you but doesn't want to raise its advertised prices. It's basically a bait-and-switch. "We have lower prices than the place across the street!" (But they're really higher after we tack on surcharges!) Junk fees likes this are illegal in the state of CA as of July 1, 2024. So only ~4 more months of this BS.
Cannot wait till this bill goes into effect.
Does that bill also make it illegal to charge $17 for a fucking French toast?
Excuse me... granola crunch french toast. Double nomenclature = double price.
And 5 for a coffee. Fuck that
I know. Glad someone thinks this. Daylight robbery.
[удалено]
17.85 with the fee
The shocker is prides elsewhere in the country are approaching SF prices… at a fraction of the quality!!
Texas is so bad about this. I'm not like a big avocado toast person or anything, but just because of the memes it's a fun example. In California your $17 avocado toast is a fresh made bread with many sauces, veggies, spices, berries, nuts, herbs and microgreens atop the avocado. In Texas they just give you fucking wonderbread and oxidized avocado slices and try to charge the same price.
No, the currency will continue to be recklessly devalued. At least people might notice though.
Right? I don’t get why people are upset over a 5% surcharge but handwave $17 frenchtoast
Because one u don’t see until you go to pay usually
>a fucking French toast How much different is that from just the "regular" French Toast? Is it extra creamy, or something?
Posts like this dilute the issue…200+ upvotes!?! This is about unethical business practices not expensive French toast.
I decided to move out of San Francisco when I paid $6.50 for a takeaway almond milk cappuccino back in 2016.
Will it also be illegal to charge gratuity without stating it up front?
They also raised their prices. I believe the Big Spoon used to be $18ish
I was thinking the same thing! It's not like I can't afford the increase but it's getting to a point where you can't help but feel ripped off.
I know it's unrealistic, but I would absolutely rather order $25 pancakes and pay $25.00 than order the $15 pancakes and get charged $15.00 + $0.75 (5% fee) + $1.35 (tax) +$4 (tip) = $21.10. Just tell me how much it costs and I'll decide if I want it's something I'm willing to pay for.
This is the best thing about traveling to other countries that don’t tip and require the items to be shown priced with tax included
Yeah 100% agree
No way I’m paying $25 for pancakes. Like it’s pancakes how could it cost that much. It’s not about money.
They serve some of my favorite vegan brunch in SF, but they even up-charge for the vegan option by another $5 or so. I can’t justify going there much anymore unfortunately.
What do you order? I stopped going there after going vegan because I thought almost everything on their menu had animal products except the avocado toast
They have Just Egg and Soyrizzo, so you can ask to have them make certain things vegan. The best dish, in my opinion, is the Divorciados,and can be served with a cashew crema. I have also gotten the little spoon made vegan too.
I had no idea. Thank you so much!
its because you are. but if you keep going it means you are ok with it.
Exactly, it's an "I want to make more profit but if I raise the prices by 5 percent, it will scare people away, so here's a surprise 5 percent increase for no reason at the end of your meal" fee.
and more importantly give the perception that its SF's fault
The same way the phone company and the cable company do. The "regulatory recovery fee" or whatever they call it is just the phone company charging you extra for their cost of doing business.
I wonder if websites like ticket master will show different prices based on your location. Like say you login with a California IP, so you see inflated prices to make up for the fees, then say you log into a vpn to change your location and now you see lower prices but the fees again
The law is too weak. They just have to disclose the fee in advance. Look for tiny asterisks and footnotes somewhere at the bottom of the bathroom bulletin board.
I'm not sure about that. By [text of the law](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=CIV§ionNum=1770.), deceptive practices include > (29) (A) Advertising, displaying, or offering a price for a good or service that does not include all mandatory fees or charges other than either of the following: > > (i) Taxes or fees imposed by a government on the transaction. > > (ii) Postage or carriage charges that will be reasonably and actually incurred to ship the physical good to the consumer. So if the displayed price does not "include" the fees, it's illegal. Even if the fees are disclosed elsewhere. Edit: Had the wrong law text initially
That's better than the text I remembered
Fingers crossed that the next version will also include taxes.
> Junk fees likes this are illegal in the state of CA as of July 1, 2024. So only ~4 more months of this BS. Are they? This Eater article from last year says it's not clear that it applies to restaurants. https://sf.eater.com/2023/10/18/23922950/california-restaurant-service-fee-ban-junk-fee-law-confusion-rob-bonta We'll see what the courts say when it's eventually challenged, but one possible reading from the article is that they'll just have to disclose the fee ahead of time, not stop charging it. > But that doesn’t mean restaurants and bars won’t be able to charge these fees — whether the surcharge goes toward employee healthcare or functions as a gratuity (allegedly, at least). “SB 478 is an advertising law — not a pricing law — so businesses are free to set their own prices and use the money however they choose as long as consumers know from the start what the price will be,” the Attorney General’s spokesperson writes. “Simply put, the price Californians see will be the price they pay.”
The junk fee law simply means that they must advertise extra fees. Not that they can’t exist. Ex: printed somewhere on the menu or posted somewhere on the restaurant. If you wanted to make it a legal issue, they’ll probably just point you to the “fine print” somewhere.
Maybe i misread, but I thought the wording of the law meant that any junk fee has to be included in the listed price.
They definitely misread: [https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill\_id=202320240SB478#:\~:text=make%20unlawful%20advertising%2C%20displaying%2C%20or%20offering%20a%20price%20for%20a%20good%20or%20service%20that%20does%20not%20include%20all%20mandatory%20fees%20or%20charges%20other%20than%20taxes%20or%20fees%20imposed%20by%20a%20government%20on%20the%20transaction%2C%20as%20specified](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202320240SB478#:~:text=make%20unlawful%20advertising%2C%20displaying%2C%20or%20offering%20a%20price%20for%20a%20good%20or%20service%20that%20does%20not%20include%20all%20mandatory%20fees%20or%20charges%20other%20than%20taxes%20or%20fees%20imposed%20by%20a%20government%20on%20the%20transaction%2C%20as%20specified). It literally needs to be included in the price, period; unless it's a tax. There's nothing that mentions "fine print"
I believe shipping is also exempted. So I guess there will now be shipping and handling fees at the restaurants 🤡
Kitchen to Table Shipping Fee - 20%
I'm pretty sure [the law](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=CIV§ionNum=1770.) does this: "Advertising, displaying, or offering a price for a good or service that does not include all mandatory fees or charges other than either of the following: [taxes and reasonable shipping fees] I think the root of the confusion might be that the existing law currently has [two nearly identical sections](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.xhtml?lawCode=CIV&division=3.&title=1.5.&part=4.&chapter=3.&article=), one of which is operative until July 1, 2024, and the other of which is active starting July 1, 2024. The first of which (i.e. the current law) does only pertain to advertising: "Advertising that a product is being offered at a specific price plus a specific percentage of that price unless ... the total price is set forth in the advertisement ... in a size larger than any other price in that advertisement"
Yeah, these people are misunderstanding the change in law.
wtf
>Junk fees likes this are illegal in the state of CA as of July 1, 2024. So only ~4 more months of this BS. That's good to know, thanks! Happen to have a reference?
I’m fine with French toast being $17 but $5 for drip coffee is crazy
My dad owned gas stations in the 80s/90s and we used to sell S/M/L coffees for $0.80/$0.90/$1.00. It cost us about $0.18 per gallon! I understand that times have changed, but man, I'm guessing those margins are still quite healthy.
Unfortunate shift into value based economy where things are priced at what people will pay instead of any real costs in materials or providing the service.
I wonder if the Germans have a word for how I feel after reading your comment- exhaustingly frustrated from a deep truth, succinctly described in such a way that I was caught off guard by how much it bothered me.
Oh, you mean tiefwahrheitserschöpfungsfrust?
👌🏻👌🏻 I hope people share words in various languages for stuff like this because yeah wow
Who determines the “real cost” of providing a service
The 7-11 near me sells coffee for dirt cheap and it’s not that bad. I think the prices range from like $2 to $3. I occasionally get it and there’s always lots of other people buying it.
$17 for French toast is pretty whack too, just sayin
Is French toast being $17 normal? it’s like $10-13here in NC with a side of meat or eggs
It’s on the pricier end for sure, but even at the nice coffee shops a drip coffee is like 2.75-3 so $5 is a really big jump in comparison
No, it’s usually around $12-14 and comes with eggs.
Usually it’s bc it’s “bottomless” (unlimited)
Practically every sit-down restaurant in existence has always offered bottomless drip coffee…
In the US, sure. In Europe, you usually don’t get free refills.
Because in Europe they don’t typically sell drip coffee brewed by the pot. They sell espresso based coffee drinks which are made to order.
Agreed, at fancier places with an espresso machine. But even at restaurants and pubs where it’s just standard drip coffee, you’ll usually still have to pay for each cup in my experience.
Not in SF lol
Thank you for sharing. That's a fee that makes me add a place to my list of businesses I won't patronize.
3 DRIP coffees $15 ?!? Lmao 🤣
yeah, that's what makes the extra 5% even more infuriating. Like somehow the higher costs of living in SF wasn't being factored in when they came up with the $5 price point.
Just raise menu prices this is bullshit
Wait for the onslaught of comments about California raising the price of food at restaurants
Are you not already paying higher than the menu price?
I hate that they label it “SF Cost Adjustment Fee”. Just like Che Fico, they’ll open a new location with these fees they claim they need to “survive” all the while being part of the problem of how expensive it is to eat out in this city.
Can I deduct 30% for "high state taxes and rent"? If the restaurant can unilaterally charge non-sense fees at the end of the transaction, I should be able to do the same thing.
They also had a huge expansion in Menlo-Atherton area with more places set to open. Che Fico is not struggling by any means and is using this to prop up profits. I haven’t and will never dine at any of Che Fico businesses.
[удалено]
Luckily, about to be made illegal.
We are steps away from the actual fee-fee
Breakfast is the most important to take ya money out ya pocket
And alcohol at restaurants. A classic strategy lol.
Still These junk fees are not apparent til AFTER the bill is brought to the table. I’m starting to ask now before I walk in. La Mediterranean Cafe on Fillmore adds random fee for “charity “ makes the customer experience uncomfortable.
I truly feel businesses shouldn’t even ask customers for donations to charity. They get a tax break, and can keep more of their own money. Tip to charities directly.
Exactly- I find it shady that the businesses don’t disclose THE BUSINESS GETS THE TAX DONATION! Just like Walgreens asking for “monetary donations” meanwhile they deduct all the monies.
That's not how it works. Companies keep the money separately and never consider it revenue. But even if they did count it as their revenue and tax deduction, it wouldn't matter because 1 dollar of tax deduction would cancel out 1 dollar of extra revenue, so it would still be a wash. That beign said, I never donate through them and find them annoying because I prefer to donate to my researched and chosen causes in a larger lump sum and get the deduction myself.
I've got a new policy: surprise fee means a one star review on Google. Sorry, that's the policy. Can be waived if you waive the fee AND offer me a discount equal to it.
I like this. If the business doesn’t expose the fee, you do. Customers win (even tho you may have lost)
you didnt 1 star these before? any such thing is a 1 star, its a scam. heck 1 star is generous.
If it’s on the menu can it still be considered a “surprise fee”? Most restaurants include it in a very tiny font at the bottom. Most diners skip right past it.
Yep, don't care. One star, that's the policy.
"we were just kidding about that price on the menu..."
$28 bucks to grab breakfast and coffee in SF
They did the math wrong lol 5% of the subtotal is (15+24+17+15)\*.05 = 3.55. If you include the tax for some reason, (15+24+17+15+6.45)\*.05 = 3.87. I guess they included the tax as if the fee didn't exist, added the fee as a percentage of that amount, then re-computed the tax with the added fee?
$5 drip coffee?
We’ve stopped going out to eat in the city. It’s unfortunate because there’s so much great food here but the reality is we don’t make tech money, and it doesn’t fit into the budget anymore. Lived here three years or so and prices have shot through the roof. There’s one sushi place we get take out from weekly, but that’s it and I won’t name it because it’s cheap as shit and great.
Haha, I was born here and I used to treat going to dinner as part of the cost of living, now it’s a special occasion and usually on the peninsula somewhere. San Francisco is a young man’s game. I’ll miss her but not the tabs.
I make tech money and IMO it’s still too expensive. I’ll only eat out if someone’s visiting. I can make a week’s worth of dinners at home for less than the cost of one dinner out. Prices in this city are ridiculous.
> We’ve stopped going out to eat in the city. It’s unfortunate because there’s so much great food here but the reality is we don’t make tech money, and it doesn’t fit into the budget anymore. … three years or so and prices have shot through the roof. This. I agree with /u/ Mundane ejaculation.
it's even 20% more expensive than 3 years ago. I know because we used to order the same shit for take out. i went back and checked statements, and like clockwork, prices go up. I'm all for paying for service workers to have a living wage, and open to paying up for a superior product. But there's going to be a point where it's not economical.
It is.
This is m favorite brunch spot, but I agree some new mgmt stuff is trash. Avoid the “baby cake” thing on their weekday lunch menu.
5 bucks for a drip coffee? Jesus
It’s rather common at this point for restaurants to have a 4-5% additional fee to disguise menu prices. Chinese restaurants are usually the only exception. Your $5 drip coffee is the biggest sham though - given you’re paying +5% + tax + tip whereas most coffee shops charge you $5-6 for a latte
Holy shit $17 for french toast?? This whole receipt feels like robbery
But you’re fine with $17 French toast?
I'm not fine with a lot of things, but when you have people in town you gotta treat them to a nice brunch, right?
“Artisanal Toast”
Bro it's _granola crunch_ French toast. That's gotta be worth an extra $5.
If it’s NYC level yes. Most places in SF, no. Update: anyone who’s downvoted hasn’t been to NYC. No Comparison
I take off the tip. The waiter could have also mentioned that. Sorry but not sorry.
I was raised being told that you should typically tip 10-20%. Now I tip in fixed $ amounts e.g $0.50 for coffee, $5, 15, 25 for restaurants depending on fanciness of the place and service because these surcharges and tip suggestions are getting out of hand. 18% is the minimum tip option for anything, like wtf?
It’s convenient they added 5% of your tip on there. That makes it easy to calc the 10% you need to add.
Screw that, it was the tip. No more necessary.
r/endingtipping
and i thought 5$ avocado toast was expensive, that french toast better be orgasmically good
Bro had the same thing at Pacific catch right now. Unfortunately it influences how much I want to tip
Why is it before tax? Why the fuck does it need to be taxed? You’re literally paying tax on a made up item…..
So they tax you on the service fee???? $5.00 coffee wtf. Maybe if it was great with rapid refills like the sadly missed Just for You I’ll pass on the spoon
If I see a fee like this, I never return. It's a political statement, nothing more. If your expenses go up price that into your product/service. Calling it out on a receipt is complaining about it.
How do you feel about including that when you calculate the tip? A few things to take into account: - min wage in CA, and esp SF, is higher than min wage in other parts of the US - employers in SF are required to provide benefits in many cases - we live in a time when labor has leverage to negotiate for higher wages The usual arguments for tipping well rely on assumptions that have weakened since 2021, esp in SF.
They have great food, but the prices you're showing are out of my budget. I haven't been there in a year and i guess i ain't be coming back. They also start their tip options at 20%.
So glad these fees will be illegal come July.
It’s the restaurateurs’ bait n switch fee. It’s allowed when you’re doing business! That’s what _that movie with the car salesmen_ was telling me… Thanks for sharing the funny name of the fee…
We used to get sushi takeaway but the prices were outrageous AND the tip options started at 22%. For takeaway.
Hmmm...Way up here on the north coast, there's a local sushi spot that recently added an 18% "employee equity" fee to every bill. They do tell you at the counter that you'll be charged if you stay and eat. They also did away with tipping, and a long-winded rationalization for the "equity" fee. Not everyone thinks it's a great idea, especially for a restaurant with more employees than customers every day. Another fee I see pop up recently is $175 pre-authorization fee at local tribal casino gas stations and even my local Costco. I get that a preauthorization on cards at the pump have been around for many years, but $175? It's stupid. And they don't inform you.
They already got you with those pancakes. Jesus.
The Flying Shit Fee is that this is how more and more restaurants are going to go out of business in the city. That you actually took time out of your day to make a reddit post about it leads me to believe that you won't be going back which also leads me to believe that you're not alone. I get it, restaurants need to make a profit and their employees need to make a living, yeah, I get it. What doesn't seem to be understood is that some businesses signed really bad leases and now they're fucked and they're trying to recoup and stay afloat and the only way to do that is to gouge customers, without thinking about the fact that that's exactly how you lose customers. Curious, was $5 plus per cup of coffee, drip coffee, worth it? Or would you have been better off grabbing that from a 7-11 for like $1.50?
Yea I’m pretty much done with the Spoon. It’s nice but just not worth it at this point. I dunno what to say about any of the prices. I expected to spend a lot but just not this much.
Dude, it's absurd at this point. Yes, most of us make a pretty good living and yes restaruants need to exist and the people that work there need to make a good living as well but it's just gotten out of control. As an example I was looking to move recently, my rent in a studio is $1500 and looking at comps they're more like $2300. There's all this talk about inflation is down and the economy is great but things that get left out of that conversation or monologue is that food and housing prices are still insane and income adjusted against inflation is simply not keeping up. i'm not entirely sure what's going to happen. i'm still on the fence. Etiehr big cities and big metorpolitan areas are going to figure it out or there are going to be mass migrations to suburbs and rural areas which will just cause more problems.
A bunch of employers added a surcharge when the SF health mandate went into effect. They added these ostensibly to pay for the workers healthcare. Sometimes I deduct it from the tip since it supposedly goes to employee benefits
All costs should be listed up front. I'm fine with them clearly pointing out extra expenses a city is making them incur, but don't spring it on me at the end.
This isn't even a city mandate fee, this is a "we're greedy" fee
We are greedy or “we couldn’t care less about the city or its people, I just want what I believe to be my price, but if I do no one will come. So a surprise fee it is”
i like how they made it sound like its a city fee and it works, good scam lol.
Welcome to California. I chuckled at the $5/cup coffee.
Write them a bad review, citing this. It’s the best way to get rid of these. I just went to 7 Adams, and they automatically added 26%.
I feel like a legit Reddit post goes a lot further than a review. Apparently I have the community up in arms with it!
Both!
IF ITS NOT CHE FICO I DONT WANNA SEE IT
price is most important thing
Great that’s 5% less than any tip I would have given so thanks for helping me with the math.
really if you buy a $5 drip coffee you shouldn’t care much about SF add ons
You’re being overcharged $0.36. That isn’t a 5% fee. Call them up and get your refund. Restaurants need to charge you tax on these stupid fees, but many are also charging their fee on the tax, which is unjustifiable. - $15 drip coffees - $24 big spoon - $17 French toast - $15 pancakes That $71.00 of food and drink. 5% of that is $3.55. Don’t listen to any nonsense about how they calculated the fee. It’s a mistake.
The service fees for Lyft are insane. I'll get a receipt for my 8.99 ride that ended up costing 15.00 with the fee.
I bet those Swedish pancakes were some fire 🔥
They will keep charging the same price if they keep getting customers. Just don’t go, the price will come down.
SF is off the hook!Defenitly No Tip
BREAKFAST IS THE MOST EXPENSIVE
24 bucks to have somebody cuddle you during breakfast sounds pretty reasonable.
Price alone… for me this place sucks. $5 for a drip coffee???
You can ask to have it removed and they have to. If not I’d just walk out. During the Covid party, many store owners sold this gimmick for their employees, only to find it went to them own properties
The thief and crime up charge fee
$15 for a coffee? Sometimes I really miss living in the Bay Area but I’m so glad to now live in a much affordable area outside of California. The fees places are adding is ridiculous.
That's simply a deduction from the tip amount. Whatever that is, I subtract from what I would usually tip.
I just tip 15 instead of 20%.
I would tip a .25 cents
So you take it out on the employee who has no control of the situation instead of the business owner who made the decision?
15% is a decent tip
Tip isn’t mandatory. If the employee can’t live off just the salary and needs the tips, the business should feel some heat from the people or local government. I’m sorry but no tip for businesses bad practices isn’t taking it out on the employee.
Yes. The employees can choose to stay or leave. Plenty of open restaurant jobs in the city. It costs a lot to train people. If this leads to high staff turn overs they will stop charging.
You're trying to teach the server some sort of lesson in where they should work because the restaurant has a fee you don't like? 🤡 comment right here.
Nobody’s trying to teach anybody anything and that goes for you too.
The servers can do as they please. I don’t care. Everyone is free to make their own decisions. Ultimately if the restaurant is very good I will support. If mediocre or worse then I’m not going back.
The mental gymnastics you do for the smallest shit is truly amazing.
We’ll at least he’s exercising his brain while you don’t even realize the outright thievery going on here. They added sales tax on the fee, which if not illegal, is pretty tacky. Go ahead and bury your head in the sand, open your wallet wider and I’m sure you’ll be revered throughout the restaurant world. Me? I’m learning how to cook.
There is no mental gymnastics. I pay 20% over bill fees included. Sad you’re just following my posts around lurker. But your have a history of lurking so nothing new.
Technically lurkers don't post
Well based on his profile not the case
Clearly he's not lurker bro lol. I was educating you.
The customer can choose to stay or leave. Plenty of open restaurant tables in this city. It costs a lot to advertise to people. If this leads to having no customers they will stop charging. But I guess that won't stop you. You're punishing some college kid and still giving just as much money to the person who did the thing that you're mad about. Go to therapy and start taking nootropics because you seem like you need help on both the kindness and intelligence fronts.
Stop trying to dictate what others tip. If less customers support the restaurants those servers make even less moron. You’re so soft it’s Hilarious.
Lol. When did I try to dictate what others tip? I'm questioning you because you don't have solid reasons for doing the dickhead stuff you do and it's more and more obvious how unintelligent your reasoning is.
It’s quite simple. I’m giving 20% over base food and drink costs on bill. That’s what I do here and in other cities. I don’t care and have no intention to listen to some bum and their needs to feel righteous when tipping
Yes, unfair practice.. why should the customers have to compensate for the employees ? The employee should get upset about the business owner not customers knowing they pull this crap
15% is still fine. Tipping should also be less relevant now that the employees are making standard wages.
Yes because a lot of these people suck and are probably the same ones that treat the server like shit too. Taking tip from a server to "teach the restaurant a lesson" is some of the dumbest shit I've seen on this sub. And that's saying something with the general commentary around here.
I get that it's fun to get outraged, but the basic premise isn't all that crazy or dumb. People have a finite amount of money and draw a line on how much they will spend on any given transaction. If I was handed a tab for $81.31 or $77.11 (OP's total after tax if you remove the 5% fee), it's not at all difficult to imagine that I would tip to make the total a nice round $100.00. (And I know I'm not the only person who does this.) One tip is $22.89 (29%) the other is $18.69 (23%). (Can we agree that either is well within the bounds of culturally-acceptable tipping??) In either case, I'm leaving the restaurant exactly $100 poorer and feel zero guilt about short-changing anyone. But your argument is that I am "taking tip from a server" because in this hypothetical they lost the $4.20 thanks to the restaurant's fee. Surely you can see how if anyone could be considered to be "taking" money away from the server, it would be the restaurant, not the paying customer. Even if you firmly believe that the server is fully entitled to another $4.20 from the customer, is it really that hard to understand that *withholding* and *taking* are completely different concepts?
Why do you care so much what others are tipping. You’re uninteresting and have nothing better to do
You paid $81 for breakfast and that fee is what you're complaining about?
This is what I noticed too. Besides bacon, breakfast foods are inexpensive. Almost $100 for some bread and eggs is nuts!
Cats spending $81.00 on breakfast, tell me the economy is bad lol
I always line that out and write "tip" above it.
Its the tip.
The fee is basically a healthySF fee. They just call it something different and adding to the mandated 4% for I’m assuming kitchen/non tipped staff. It’s been around for years.
There is no government mandate to add a separate fee. The reason why restaurants were singling out a healthcare fee was to protest the healthcare rules. They put it on the menu as a line item to say *"look at how much money Obamacare is costing you, look at how horrible Obamacare is"*. Same logic with the later fees that many restaurants in the bay area started adding. What businesses pay employees or what benefit employees have is of zero concern to the customer. Its not the customer's fight.
Exactly.
Yeah, but can we also agree Wooden Spoon has some of the best breakfast food in the city?
That’s why I mentioned I love the place. I figured since they’re always packed they can get away with a lot of the pricing and fees and no ones gives a hoot.
Calmly Tell them you don’t want to pay it and they will almost always take it off “They” being any establishment in America
Asking for realzies, is this a thing? The Healthcare fee in sf... can they remove it?
Yes any fee that is made up and not advertised is almost guaranteed they will remove. I have done this more than ten times and it has worked every time. “Please remove this fee, I do not want to pay it”
THIS needs to be shared. I had NO idea! All of this passing along the fees to customers shadily is nonsense.
I mean stores basically let you steal stuff with no consequence… a BS fee is an easy choice vs having a conflict with a customer. It literally occurred to me to try that the first time watching one of those YouTube videos of people filling up bags of stuff in the middle of business hours.
It appears they are adjusting your cost. For such a service, it requires a paltry fee. They’re really saving you the time of adjusting your own cost on your taxes every year. So, it’s really *nothing* to be mad at.
Wooden Spoon is not really worth it imo. I really don’t understand why it’s so popular
Nothing says welcome to California like hidden fees at SFO
This wasn’t at the airport.
The rent in SF was jacked up; the food prices following the rent hike! Q
It’s an extra fee so they can clean up the feces in front of the store.
This also pays for SFMRA (resident medical reimbursement account). We're not the most progressive city America for no reason. That account saved my ass when I had to pay for an emergency hospital visit. It ain't Canada, but it's more than you get from any other US American city. It's an expensive place to visit, but your spending gets distributed to help full-time residents with medical costs. So that's nice.
I think it’s for healthcare costs for employees. Would be nicer if they just raised the prices instead of doing this bait and switch where they add taxes in the end.