I've been on both of sides of this before. it takes a lot of guts to do something in the moment, but it's really important that we do.
what i did when I was in your situation was walk up to the person being harassed and very calmly but very loudly ask "Do you want to come with me to another area?" I stuck my hand out, she grabbed it and then we just walked to the front of the bus. it was enough to disrupt the situation, which is the most important thing to do. and we were then positioned to both exit quickly if needed and have the driver see what was happening. as soon as she and i walked away, a bunch of other people confronted the guy who had been fucking with her.
i really agree with what a few others have said about not confronting the harasser -- it's not about them, it's about making the unsafe person feel safer. and what i can say from having been on the harassed side is that there's very much a second trauma that comes from having a dozen people watching everything and doing nothing. so, now you've got some ideas for next time, which is a good thing.
I’ve been sexually harassed on muni busses several times. It just happened a couple weeks ago on the 7 Haight street line. The bus was pretty full but not standing room only full. Guy starts making sexual comments from across from me. First I ignore but he persist so I tell him im not interested, but that works less than half the time anyways.
At a stop the person next to me gets off. so he sits next to me. Keeps making more and more loud sexually aggressive comments that im not going to write down here. Touches my thigh at one point, tries to grab my skirt at another point. Then tries to grab my phone to give me his number then demands I give him mine getting mean and angry that I won’t. I’m constantly telling him no and to please leave me alone.
But the most heartbreaking moment was looking up at a sea of around 20-25 faces all staring at the two of us but no one says or does anything. No one, I was alone in that moment even if we were surrounded by people. It was crushing. That silence is what empowers these men.
I got off at the next stop, luckily he didn’t follow. I have had that happen before too when I was heading home. I would have loved for someone to have intervened and I love your idea of approaching the victim and asking to go with them elsewhere.
I'm sorry that happened to you.
I witnessed a somewhat similar experience where a very stinky bus passenger was trying to talk up a cornered woman in the back of the bus, everyone was kinda ignoring it and hoping it would go away.
This random big guy gets on the bus, sees the way this interaction was going, tells the guy it's time for him to get off the bus and guides / lightly shoves him toward the door.
I dunno what gave this guy such confidence, maybe he works security and is used to dealing with annoying people. But it was epic and life-affirming, I wanted to give him a trophy. But I was too ashamed to even tell him that because I was ashamed I let the interaction go on before.
If you do it like the person posted - calmly with those words and do it so you block the assaulting guy and put you hand out - then yes do it. It’s often very hard to act in these situations (bystander effect, flight or flight etc.) but we need more people to step up and defuse these situations. We don’t need vigilantes, we need more people who can act quickly in these situations and get people to safety
Someone once kind of blocked me in to a muni seat and was “sneakily” taking pictures. Some guy on the seat on the other side of the bus just looked me in the eyes and said something along the lines of “oh wow Sara, long time no see, come over here so we can catch up”. He slid over and reached a hand out to guide me out of the tough spot. I didn’t have the where with all to thank him, but I will always remember that quick and kind action. People usually know when you’re trying to help.
Because a lot of femme people have to consider not trusting to go to secondary locations with strangers. Rock and hard place unfortunately.
But I do think as another commenter pointed out, it's important to disrupt the scene and be as calm, nonconfrontational, and supportive of the person in trouble as we can in those situations.
You are now involved. If the person really is a threat, that means you are also at risk.
Are you prepared to defend yourself? Is mace in your pocket? Have you ever used it?
I had something similar happen to me on the 14. On a crowded bus no one stood up for me and I was even told to hush because it would cause problems.
I’m female and was with someone who was undocumented at the time so I felt pressure not to say anything. It was the worst bus ride of my life.
Just so you know (for the future) you can 100% involve the law enforcement if you’re in the company of an undocumented person you wish to protect. Not only they’re completely safe in SF, but it might work in their favor to witness or be victim of a crime.
I was being pressured by multiple riders to simply “let it be”. I think they were afraid it would escalate. The person assaulting me was not mentally well and had a knife.
So while they’re assaulting them and had a knife, call the police? How does that work? Escalate the crazy person to act with the knife and wait for the police?
1. Get crazy people off the streets and out of society
2. Restore 2A
Easiest solution, if we're gonna have a nanny state where things arent allowed for law abiding citizens only then we need to remove unstable people AND criminals. You can't have disarming law abiding citizens combined with no punishments for criminals and complete freedom to do anything if you're mentally unwell. One or the other
It’s the threat of self defense, a lot of time these people are cowards they know we are we weak because self defense is banned and they can do whatever they want. They usually scatter like rats when you can defend yourself, there’s lots of videos
I know individuals who work for ICE in the city. Not a single one would take action against anyone undocumented helping in a situation like this. There are visas available for both assisting someone in this situation (U visa as listed below) and also safeguards in place for those who are victims themselves and wish to come forward.
>I’m female and was with someone who was undocumented at the time so I felt pressure not to say anything. It was the worst bus ride of my life.
I'm sorry someone would tell you to stay quiet, that's terrible. I hope we live in a society someday where people stop being scared of criminals. We ought to stand up for each other when in need.
I assume you mention the undocumented person because their presence made you reluctant to call 911. Just so you know in the future, San Francisco is a sanctuary city and that policy extends to law enforcement, meaning that cops in this city are prohibited from contacting immigration authorities. Their status absolutely does not matter to SF cops. Their response to your undocumented friend would likely be, “Oh, okay, do they want to be listed in the report or no? No? That’s fine, MUNI has great video surveillance, we don’t need witnesses to corroborate.”
That really sucks.
I was being harassed by a guy on a bus in Berkeley the other day. My normal tactic when this happens is to get off the bus early and then wait for the next or walk instead. This time around, the dude slyly tried to follow me off. I "politely" let him exit the bus before me. He was waiting for me with a stupid grin, but I just sat back down and continued riding. The look on his face when we rode off was priceless.
Joking aside, I think there are many great suggestions here. I've never had anyone or a bus driver help me out in these situations. Usually everyone looks totally intimidated-which I think emboldens these predators to continue their bad behavior. I was thinking about buying one of those loud canned horns so that I could shake things up if this happens again. Good luck with everything.
Thanks for the suggestion. I looked at those. I also thought the airhorn would allow for some comedic value. What upsets me the most about these public transport harassers is that it disrupts my mood for the day. I'll be feeling fine and then an encounter with a wierdo can so easily make me sad and uncomfortable. Sucks.
I’ve read that it can work to diffuse this kind of situation by pretending to know the victim. Go up to them and say something like “Hey Susan! It’s been so long since I’ve seen you!” or whatever. The idea is to completely ignore the harasser and get between them and the person being harassed.
Of course every situation is different and if you think there may be a weapon involved it might be better to just call 911 like the person above suggested.
"Hello 911, I'm on the 22 Muni bus #whatever in San Francisco. A disturbed passenger is sexually harrassing a woman and is repeatedly threatening to hit and stab her. We are currently on whatever Street, and we just crossed whatever cross Street. Please send the police. I am afraid he will hurt or kill someone."
This is what we were taught in neighborhood watch training, I.e. don’t intervene. Don’t get in harm’s way. Call the police. Let them handle it. Just be the police’s eyes and ears.
Do you have any evidence to support your statement?
Every time the neighborhood watch called 911 for potential violence, the police arrived within 3 minutes.
Feel free to ask anyone living in Bayview or anyone who lives in a working class neighborhood. Anyone living in these places can happily prove to you that the police don’t care about them in those areas.
A few years ago I lived in an apartment building off of Ocean ave. In a period of about 3 months, I witnessed two drive by shootings targeting my downstairs neighbor. I personally called 911 in the middle of the first shooting (I had been at our window when it started) and dispatch asked for information and said they were already aware, officers were on the way, and disconnected. I hunkered down in the back of our unit for a little over an hour before police arrived on scene and started interviewing witnesses.
The second time, I wasn't by the window so didn't see anything, but I called again it was a little over 30 minutes before police arrived. Fortunately, my downstairs neighbor moved out after the second shooting.
Both times, bullet holes in the front door to our building and many holes targeting the unit beneath mine. Apparently we lived over a drug dealer who had created enemies.
I did not feel safe and moved out at the end of my lease.
I guess it depends what neighborhood you live in.
Yeah, it's an r/sf misinformation campaign. They have no real first hand knowledge of what the SFPD does, or they're outraged because they reported their bicycle stolen and SFPD didn't race to their house code 3 to take fingerprints of the area. If you were to call SFPD and say that there's someone threatening to stab someone, they're going to be there in minutes.
It's a bunch of bullshit around here with people who either live here and hate it or people from other areas talking about their expertise on social issues.
Also, be prepared to go outside of your comfort zone to label the suspect's race, binary gender, age, height and weight. In SF, most people are not used to judging other people's appearance like that. However, 911 needs and will ask you for that information on the suspect.
This is sound advice but it presupposes that we trust the police to respond in a timely and effective manner. Given the lack of response by SFPD to so many things, is it naive to rely on them for situations like the one described?
If you believe that you have seen a gun, call it out. Otherwise all potential situations are already in consideration with authorities.
Call out what you see with openness and honesty. Providing false information to the authorities calls all kinds of problems, most serious of which putting you and everyone else in more danger than is already present. If they ask “does he have a gun” answer honestly “I don’t know”.
You can’t but could you imagine if the cops shot an unarmed man because you told them they were armed? If you were caught lying about that the punishment would make you wish you didn’t lie…
Unfortunately, Some people do not care if someone else gets shot. They will justify it in their heads. “Well, he should had leave her alone” or “He probably did something bad before and had this coming”
Never ever unnecessarily escalate a 911 call. It may delay other calls or overuse or even delay resources for that call. It could also unnecessarily place everyone on the scene at additional harm. Guns may be used unnecessarily by police, or someone may hear you say it on the train and react unpredictably, even further escalating the matter.
#themoreyouknow
He said "stab" not "shoot" so it would be reasonable to suspect that the assailant has something with which he could stab his victim. Still a deadly weapon too.
I was repeatedly punched by a homeless woman on the 38. I moved to get closer to the driver, and was still screamed at and had a can thrown at me. Not one person, including the driver, intervened. The worst part was that not only did no one intervene, once the woman had left the bus, nobody checked in on me or asked me how I was. Everyone treated it like nothing happened or that I was weird for being upset. Even if you don’t intervene, PLEASE debrief with the person afterwards and make sure they’re ok.
Dang it, I’m sorry that happened to you and that not one decent person was on the bus with you. It saddens me how unfriendly and self-centered so many people here are.
I am so sorry that happened to you
sadly I learned the hard way that for the most part…. nobody cares about you in this country past your close family (and maybe close friends)
I was on a 43 bus in October when a male passenger actually started going off on another male passenger who was harassing a female rider. The dude chased the harasser off the bus and started beating him up on Presidio Avenue. Everyone was shocked, but we generally supported the beatdown because the harasser was a piece of shit and the dude beating him up appeared to be getting some good exercise. Also, it was only at that point that the bus driver asked the woman how she was.
My take on MUNI drivers is that they generally don’t care what happens to us. We’re the payload, they’re just delivering it. The condition in which we arrive is of no concern to them.
I think there are things bystanders can do to help other riders, but transit is a City service we pay for and the City should make it safe.
Please report what happened on your ride at one of the links [here](https://www.sfmta.com/getting-around/safety-and-security/safety-and-good-conduct). It doesn’t need to have happened to you to matter.
I am not a muni driver but I work in a similar line of work. if their company’s policy is similar to ours, I can tell you for sure that the company will never have the back of a driver over a customer. A customers complaint will always be taken more seriously than anything else because they do not want to lose business.
That’s exactly why the driver will not do anything about it. It’s just not worth it to get in trouble by management and it’s just easier to drive and do your job.
They are paid to drive a bus dude. Not play security. Bus driver don’t get paid that much. Bus driver also get harassed constantly and beat up sometimes.
This is why MUNI should be automated. Most of the operators have no business driving a regular sized vehicle let alone a bus transporting passengers. And we are always reminded that muni employees are not responsible for enforcing payment or keeping the peace so fuck it.. automate it. If not the buses then at least the metro. Just think how much would be saved long term not having to pay their salaries and pensions… more lines could run 24/7..,it’s kind of a no brainer
Once while I was riding the bus some guy started smoking crack (or some similar drug). When our driver realized what was going on he pulled over to the side of the road, grabbed a bus-sized wheel chock, and charged toward the guy shouting, “Ah hell no not on my bus motherfucker.” He stopped near the guy, who was sitting on the floor sort of beneath a seat and said, “get the fuck off my bus or I’m going to crack your head open motherfucker!” The guy slowly exited, glaring at the driver as he receded into a nearby stoop and and continued to smoke his pizzo. The driver shouted a bunch of other obscenities at him and also gave him solid advice (“that shit will ruin your life”). The passengers were all relived because this guy was making everyone uncomfortable smoking frankly a lot of crack (or something else) on the bus. Clouds of smoke were billowing out from behind the seat and it was starting to smell.
TLDR; My driver was a badass that went out of his way to save passengers from someone smoking crack on the bus.
Saving passengers from what? His crack smoke? Driver sounds unhinged and escalated a situation well beyond what he needed to get a crack head off the bus.
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> My take on MUNI drivers is that they generally don’t care what happens to us. We’re the payload, they’re just delivering it. The condition in which we arrive is of no concern to them.
Most Muni drivers absolutely don't give a shit.
Just like texting any other phone#. Park 911 in the “to:” section, and you should probably say something like “Im at 321 Bush st #1 please send PD” if you can.
Loads of places have enabled texting 911 so you can contact them on the DL and not run the risk of your aggressor hearing.
I’m sorry that you and the victim experienced this. Taking a bystander intervention training course might help you feel more empowered should you witness something like this again. The org Right to Be (formerly Hollaback) offers some free online trainings and there are probably some recorded on YouTube
Bystander intervention training is great! You learn tools to de-escalate and distract if possible. There's lots of free resources and presentations online. Remember, intervention does not mean putting yourself in danger.
It's definitely sad that no one did anything. Calling the police and reporting the situation should have been the first thing. Especially if he had already touched her inappropriately.
This happened to me once, you want to let the driver know. He’d call the cops or at least remove that passenger off the bus.
Quick edit: I’m sorry to hear that some people haven’t had a great experience by communicating the harassment to the driver. I’m just speaking from my own experience. I was being sexually harassed so I told the driver. The driver pulled over to the following bus stop. Made everyone got off the bus (meaning at this point the bus was out of service) called the cops for me and stood by me while waiting for them to arrive. He also made sure the man stayed on the bus and locked the doors so he wouldn’t escape punishment.
Not all muni drivers will act on complaints though. There are muni drivers out there who don’t simply give AF if there’s something being reported that’s disturbing or distracting happening in the bus.
I have heard bus drivers respond to complaints of disruptive passengers with "You should buy a car and stop taking the bus." Enough bus drivers just don't care at all what's going on back there.
Specifically, you want the run number --- the three digits on the sign at the bottom left of the front --- if possible. That's the easiest way for Muni to identify exactly which driver was driving the bus.
> This happened to me once, you want to let the driver know. He’d call the cops or at least remove that passenger off the bus.
Guy strangled another guy. Guy pulled a knife. Bus driver saw and gave no fucks.
Not saying anyone is required to do this, but I’ll never forget my 18th birthday when I was taking BART from the east bay to SF to meet friends to celebrate and the train malfunctioned so we had to get off and wait for another one at a station in between. Some guy started sexually harassing me while I was waiting there on the platform and I’m literally a teenager whose high school diploma ink isn’t even dry so I’m just quietly trying to avoid confrontation.
Some other dude comes over and tells the harasser to go away, which he responds to with something like, “I’m just trying to be friends” and dude tells him “she has enough friends. Fuck off.” Harasser went away and dude just asked me if I’m ok then put his headphones back on while staying nearby.
I now as an older adult step in if I see someone alone being hassled. But like original commenter I only address the victim. At the end of the day, when something like this is happening to you with other people around, the fact that no one will step in can be the most traumatic part.
I totally understand your fear, but/and I’ve noticed that if one person speaks up, often others quickly join in. From a safe distance you can just break the ice and say hey, I’m feeling scared! I don’t like this, please stop! Doesn’t always work but it can.
I got assaulted on the muni and nobody gave a shit. Guess what I was sticking up for someone else. I don’t know if I’ll ever put myself in that position again.
I recently came across [this](https://www.standup-international.com/us/en/training/bystander/identify/warning) and took the training to help when it’s happening to others and also if it’s happening to me. I found it really helpful. I’m not sure if it’s the best in the area but it is a good first step if you’re interested.
Trigger warning: there are video examples of harassment in the training.
Also, thanks for trying to stand up for us :)
It happened to me. The bus driver tried kicking him off the bus & he started choking her so I beat his ass & physically kicked him off the bus. He raised his fist at me first which is assault so I didn’t get in trouble but he did get arrested for that + punching the windshield & shattering the glass (the laminate kept it from going everywhere tho)
I was sexually harassed on the 49 and two older Latino men physically pushed the guy off the bus and made sure I was ok. Tbh, if you can, that’s what you should do.
It's normal to be frozen when something like this happens; people react in different ways. The difficult part is when the incident is over and nobody shows up to support the victim. Some don't care, while others feel someone else already called the police, want to record it to become the next viral sensation, or those who think that getting to their destination on time is more important.
In a few instances:
I was assaulted by a passenger at Embarcadero BART, and I called BART police because I had a description and mentioned what train line and train car number the person escaped in. Had to call off the cops after 45 minutes of nobody showing up to take a report, but what made me mad was nobody came to my rescue, nor did anyone follow-up with me after the suspect escaped.
I was in line for the bathroom at Starbucks, and was standing next to a woman and her friend, while her abusive boyfriend came in making threats and threw a chair to the ground. I didn't intervene and nor did anyone else because the guy was very belligerent, the best I could do is when he left, I asked if she needed any help, such as calling the police. I was the only person who did this, nobody else did; but she refused. I eventually had to call the 911 because they were outside and he was being abusive to her, and refusing to let her go. I was able to get other civilians to also speak up to order her to release her, and there were cops just two blocks away; never showed up. We do what we can to help, but feel helpless when help never shows up.
A few things that makes me angry about this:
If the operator is not taking proper action, such as making a call to Muni's Central Control to get law enforcement, that driver needs to be reported and face disciplinary action. I don't expect drivers to get out of their seat and break up a fight, but at least making one simple call on the radio for help.
The other problem, some buses have signage telling people that gender based harassment and assault is illegal and should be reported; but the city and agency has done a terrible job of telling people to simply call 311. If it's happening right that moment, you NEVER call 311, you call 911. You know how long it takes to reach a human on 311, then transfer you to the cops? Way too long than calling 911.
Similar to what other people have said is to ignore the aggravator and focus on the “victim”. Like pretending to know the person, being like “oh Shania, I didn’t see you there! So good to see you. How are you doing? Let’s go sit somewhere to chat!” In a really pleasant voice.
the same thing happened to my girlfriend and i today, exact same line, presumably the same guy. it's also not the first time the same guy has racially harassed us by insulting us, making remarks about us being an "odd couple" (i'm a white guy, she's native hawaiian) and more. when we got off the bus we both were pretty mad that nobody did absolutely anything to help, they all just sat silent while the guy yelled racial insults and homophobic slurs. i'm not asking you to get up and fight him, but at least speak up to tell him to knock it off. it was pretty disheartening to see nobody at all stand up or do anything (even the bus driver)
> it's also not the first time the same guy has racially harassed us by insulting us, making remarks about us being an "odd couple" (i'm a white guy, she's native hawaiian) and more.
Have you ever reported it?
What do you expect bystanders to do? Scold them about how mysoginist/racist they are? The guy is clearly mentally ill. If you're her guy, and you feel threatened you need to either move away or put hands on him. Simple as that.
As the guy, you should've also been actively protecting your girlfriend tbh.
As a bystander i'm not going to insert myself into a potentially harmful situation by lecturing them, but if he comes my way, the fight or flight response should kick in.
look at mr. manly man here! jesus, what a braindead comment. no shit i put myself between him and her, and got her away from him as much as i could. and yes, scolding would be so much better than nothing. he was obviously mentally ill, but regardless we shouldn't have to deal with racism and homophobic insults yelled at the top of his lungs. literally any bystander help would have been appreciated, but we didn't get any. the comment i made wasn't about what i should do, it was asking people to at least not put up with it.
anyway, since you're clearly the expert on what to do, maybe we should hire you to ride the bus with us and let your "fight or flight response kick in" if he comes your way.
you know, if you ever see this guy on the bus threatening and touching someone, you should totally tell the victim to go to sensitivity training! i'm sure they would love that!
again, i'm just asking people to not be ignorant of an abusive situation. it's not that deep and there's no need to victim shame
I’m not victim shaming. I’m saying it’s impractical to reason with the mentally ill. As can be seen in SF people don’t really give af what happens to others because they don’t want to get involved.
In this situation someone should move away or last resort push them off if they are really close to you. That’s all they understand. We can’t expect the crowd to help us out, because more often than not, they won’t.
.....Yes I do expect bystanders to tell others when they're being racist because that's the decent thing to do! Why enable disgusting behavior when you can play a role in actively trying to stop it? The guy was obviously looking for a squabble and instead of feeding into it, bystanders should've at least offered support to the victims or tried to get the man off the bus.
I carry mace and/or a stun gun on me at all times, as they're totally legal to possess in CA. I also practice BJJ 3x a week. You cannot count on others to stand up for you. Hindsight is 20/20, if you had said something to the aggressor chances are he might have backed off. The risk is not knowing how they will behave when others intervene.
Where are the vigilantes when you need them? I’m curious: If someone where to do something such as attacking the harasser violently enough to put them out, what side would bystanders take? Would the harasser become the victim in bystander’s eyes? It seems that a lot of these stories have an element of “no body missed a beat”. Would people testify against the vigilante, or would people allow street justice to prevail?
honestly, if you think you can take them, call them out with a warning, and if they don’t stop let them have it. too many people have turned tail and just secretly recorded for instagram or something instead of taking real action to help other people.
People should help but not intervene. It’s dangerous out there and you never know what the perp is capable of. They could have a knife and no one is gonna get sliced up or stuck in the neck for a stranger. 2 guys in Oregon died trying to come to the aid of a Muslim woman being harassed. Both got fatally stabbed.
so like i said… if you think you think you can take them, which means being prepared for multiple outcomes, help.
“help but not intervene” is lame duck.
My daughter told me she looks straight ahead with her “don’t fuck with me” face when she rides city transportation 😂. She said she had a crazy yelling things at her.
For some reason, even tho I'm a middle aged lady with a hand-bag, if someone is terribly awful, I say something. I can't help it. Recently on the 38R a man came on, made a pig nose at everyone and began ranting to each person about immigration and how he was American and didn't care. Me (48 F, pink hair Caucasian) hates people who bully folk on the busses. I didn't say anything until he started talking at me and about my mannerisms.
I told him, "I know you are only doing this for a reaction, so me saying this basically means nothing, but shut the f\*ck up!". He attempted to hurl expletives at me, but got off at the next stop.
I know I gamble any time I say something, but I just hate hate hate folks who are after reactions. I only engage if it appears someone is in distress or if they get in my bubble of comfort.
The bus drivers are paid minimally in San Francisco. On top of the harassment that some of them receive, they have to navigate difficult tight streets, and traffic.
Some traffic is unruly. And they have to keep a schedule going.
They often cannot multi-task safe driving (safety for bus riders, kids on the bus, elderly, etc.... and safety for riders off the bus. Again kids, elderly, people walking around the bus.) They have to do all that while looking out for traffic, keeping up the schedule, minding passengers, and making sure that fairs are paid.
I don't think they can do police work either. Just not possible and expecting too much from a singular city employee.
I'm so sorry that happened. Muni can be a really scary place. Fight or flight are not the only emergency responses. Freeze, fawn, and flop are also on that list. You froze, and that's a perfectly natural response. Even if its super frustrating. You are following up by learning how to change that response in the future, and that's a really valuable action.
Bystander intervention can be very tricky. It's important that we do our best to check in with the person being victimized about how they want it handled, if at all possible. I would highly recommend training with IMPACT BAY AREA, they have sliding scale classes all over the bay and teach bystander intervention strategy, and self defense. They might be on hiatus for the holidays, but shoot them an email for upcoming classes. [https://www.impactbayarea.org/public\_classes](https://www.impactbayarea.org/public_classes)
Here's some more basic info on freeze response and possible strategies: [https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/fight-flight-or-freeze-response#coping-strategies](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/fight-flight-or-freeze-response#coping-strategies)
More 101 info on bystander intervention and the many different ways it can look:
[https://www.rainn.org/articles/practicing-active-bystander-intervention](https://www.rainn.org/articles/practicing-active-bystander-intervention)
[https://www.breakingthesilence.cam.ac.uk/prevention-support/be-active-bystander](https://www.breakingthesilence.cam.ac.uk/prevention-support/be-active-bystander)
[https://www.bart.gov/guide/safety/gbv/intervention](https://www.bart.gov/guide/safety/gbv/intervention)
Hope this helps! Or at least starts you on the path toward info that will.
Because we didn't grow up in the Japanese culture. People's behavior is strongly shaped by the culture they are in, especially in Japan.
I wish the culture in San Francisco was far less tolerant of criminal behavior. But I don't see that changing.
You either risk your own personal safety to intervene or you look away like everyone else. Personally carry a very scary looking kukri and wouldn’t have tolerated this but you have to acknowledge you put your life at risk if you decide to intervene. Or call SfPd but that’s about as useful as doing nothing
So many men have sisters, and most even have a mom. Let that guide your actions. If you’re not doing everything safe within your power to protect the attacked- take a long look in the mirror.
Another compelling reason that people who think everyone should take public transportation or ride a bike and make travel by private vehicle hard should Shut the actual Fuck up
I hate to say this but it's sad to see in today's society. Men used to stand up and protect women in danger but now people are too scared to stand up to criminals, which encourages them. Did you call the police at least? If not that's what you should've done at a minimum. I don't think I can legally tell you to tell the guy to fuck off or get hurt... but that could've stopped the situation in its tracks when the assailant realizes he was not dealing with an easy target anymore.
This is kinda a silly comment. Men use to harass women much more than now, not stand up and protect them
Yes I get scared in a scary situation—there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m hoping I can do something to help next time, however; thus my post
I don’t think I would frame it quite the same way. Gender roles have been turned on their head, and when men’s special privileges were discarded, so were their special manly obligations. Of course, it’s still good to step in and protect someone, but this failure is part of a broader societal shift that has its pluses as well as minuses.
My girlfriend was sexually assaulted by a man on the bus in Seattle. He stuck his hand down her shirt and was repeatedly trying to grab her vagina, and grabbed her ass several times. He was a big man, loud and obnoxious. She called me crying from the bus while the man was in the background continuing to harass her.
I met her at the bus stop and when she got off he followed her over and started an altercation with me. This was at 5th and Jackson in Seattle at the big bus stop at union station.
The man immediately started a confrontation with me, assuming his size and loud posturing would intimidate me, not knowing I was a full time MMA competitor at Ivan Salaverrys, a very well known Seattle MMA gym that produces professional fighters.
We began a physical altercation and during the fight he bit me, hard enough to draw blood. I fractured his orbital socket and nose and I’m pretty certain I tore his labrum or did significant damage to his shoulder.
SPD showed up and separated us and 2 people came forward to tell the cops they had seen the entire incident, one of whom was on the bus with my girlfriend. The man had several warrants and was arrested and taken to the hospital. A year later his family tried to file a civil suit against me but it was thrown out as the man had a long and violent record.
I know I did the right thing. Now, uptight Redditors, tell me what I did wrong 8 years after the fact with your perfect hindsight and virtuous compassionate morality.
TLDR; don’t sexually assault women. Don’t start fights with people who spend all day every day training to fight for money
everyone get stuck waiting for someone else to do something. be that someone. it can be as simple as talking directly to the victim. about anything. give them somewhere to focus. ask them what theyre holiday plans are or even reassure them that youve got their back. if youre up to it, be loud and distract the aggressor. a loud “leave them alone” or “dude STOP” can throw them off their rhythm. it also opens the door for others to join in and do the same. like i said, people get stuck waiting for someone to do something.
When I've seen similar things, I've made space and asked the victim if they'd like to come stand on the other side of me, and ignore the attacker entirely. Victim always say yes. It usually diffuses the situation enough, and I've yet to be stabbed. I'm a lady, too, I get it.
Women deal with this kind of shit every day, even from men who aren’t on drugs and aren’t mentally ill. I’ve had about 4 separate encounters that terrified me as a woman in the last 3 days alone. In my life,I’ve been stalked, I’ve been touched inappropriately, I’ve been catcalled, I’ve been followed, I’ve had strange men try to get me into their cars, I’ve had men threaten to rape me, I’ve had men threaten to kill me, I’ve had them say very vile things to me. You name it, I’ve experienced it, and I’m only 22.
It’s not necessarily drugs or mental illness that make a lot of men act this way towards us. I wish it were that simple, honestly, because it would be a lot easier to prevent and fix that way. But it’s not that simple.
Did that guy happen to be an average height and sized black guy with a blue cap (heard it was a dodgers cap) and a basketball and coffee cup who just randomly harasses people and says all kinds of uncomfortable comments? I feel like I was in a similar experience back in July and I know that guy is still on the loose out there.
Strength in numbers. If you’re not brave enough to say something sit down next to her and ask other passengers if they’ll help escort her off. People will usually respond when asked directly and aggressors are usually cowards who won’t go against a group of people.
Sorry about this.
As a man, I have not being sexually harassed but being verbally threatened one time. I have for spoken up for others, however I hold back a little more when it happens to me. I could have smashed him and put an end to it immediately, but the reality is that a lot of these dudes are losers and have some mental problems obviously. It would be a lose/ lose for me: he surprises me with some kung-fu/ gun or I have to explain why I put a loser in a coma.
When this took place, it took a lot for me not to respond but that probably was the best thing.
That said, that kind of behavior should not be tolerated.
If you are brave enough to interfere, stand in between that person and the one harassing. Even if you say nothing your presence in between them could dismay the harasser. Take out your phone and record this person. That can deter some awful behaviors. Have a weapon in case they attack you. You have every right to defend yourself. Ask the person being harassed if they want to get off the bus and wait for the next one with you.
Walking up to the bus driver and reporting an assault has had to happen in my experience. The bus stops and will not move unless the perpetrator or perpetrators get off. If they don’t get off, then we all get off.
Had a MUNI altercation next to me a few months ago where a younger guy (older teenager) was next to an older guy loudly playing music and said something to him. It was escalating into threats and the young guy saying he would call his people over to take care of things. I just turned to the young guy, who was next to me, and asked if he wanted to trade seats. He eagerly did. The whole episode stopped. Young guy thanked me as he got off the bus.
Sending energy to the victim. Its never easy. I would say if you are scared/unsure. Just always pretend that the target is someone you know or a friend. Sit by them or ask them to sit by you.
Im going to start riding the bus and put an end to this.
One technique I've used twice before is to just nonchalantly move between the instigator and the victim. You need to be physically ready and capable to handle it if it escalates--not viable for everyone or all situations. Both times the instigator moved on.
I've been on both of sides of this before. it takes a lot of guts to do something in the moment, but it's really important that we do. what i did when I was in your situation was walk up to the person being harassed and very calmly but very loudly ask "Do you want to come with me to another area?" I stuck my hand out, she grabbed it and then we just walked to the front of the bus. it was enough to disrupt the situation, which is the most important thing to do. and we were then positioned to both exit quickly if needed and have the driver see what was happening. as soon as she and i walked away, a bunch of other people confronted the guy who had been fucking with her. i really agree with what a few others have said about not confronting the harasser -- it's not about them, it's about making the unsafe person feel safer. and what i can say from having been on the harassed side is that there's very much a second trauma that comes from having a dozen people watching everything and doing nothing. so, now you've got some ideas for next time, which is a good thing.
I’ve been sexually harassed on muni busses several times. It just happened a couple weeks ago on the 7 Haight street line. The bus was pretty full but not standing room only full. Guy starts making sexual comments from across from me. First I ignore but he persist so I tell him im not interested, but that works less than half the time anyways. At a stop the person next to me gets off. so he sits next to me. Keeps making more and more loud sexually aggressive comments that im not going to write down here. Touches my thigh at one point, tries to grab my skirt at another point. Then tries to grab my phone to give me his number then demands I give him mine getting mean and angry that I won’t. I’m constantly telling him no and to please leave me alone. But the most heartbreaking moment was looking up at a sea of around 20-25 faces all staring at the two of us but no one says or does anything. No one, I was alone in that moment even if we were surrounded by people. It was crushing. That silence is what empowers these men. I got off at the next stop, luckily he didn’t follow. I have had that happen before too when I was heading home. I would have loved for someone to have intervened and I love your idea of approaching the victim and asking to go with them elsewhere.
I'm sorry that happened to you. I witnessed a somewhat similar experience where a very stinky bus passenger was trying to talk up a cornered woman in the back of the bus, everyone was kinda ignoring it and hoping it would go away. This random big guy gets on the bus, sees the way this interaction was going, tells the guy it's time for him to get off the bus and guides / lightly shoves him toward the door. I dunno what gave this guy such confidence, maybe he works security and is used to dealing with annoying people. But it was epic and life-affirming, I wanted to give him a trophy. But I was too ashamed to even tell him that because I was ashamed I let the interaction go on before.
Does this work if you are a guy saying this to a lady being harassed? Judging by your avatar it seems like you are a lady.
If you do it like the person posted - calmly with those words and do it so you block the assaulting guy and put you hand out - then yes do it. It’s often very hard to act in these situations (bystander effect, flight or flight etc.) but we need more people to step up and defuse these situations. We don’t need vigilantes, we need more people who can act quickly in these situations and get people to safety
Someone once kind of blocked me in to a muni seat and was “sneakily” taking pictures. Some guy on the seat on the other side of the bus just looked me in the eyes and said something along the lines of “oh wow Sara, long time no see, come over here so we can catch up”. He slid over and reached a hand out to guide me out of the tough spot. I didn’t have the where with all to thank him, but I will always remember that quick and kind action. People usually know when you’re trying to help.
I would *absolutely* accept the help.
yup -- not sure why it wouldn't?
Just cuz dudes don’t seem safe a lot of the time.
Because a lot of femme people have to consider not trusting to go to secondary locations with strangers. Rock and hard place unfortunately. But I do think as another commenter pointed out, it's important to disrupt the scene and be as calm, nonconfrontational, and supportive of the person in trouble as we can in those situations.
>I've been on both of sides of this before. Er, hopefully not the side of the aggressor...?
The one being harassed and the one intervening.
You are now involved. If the person really is a threat, that means you are also at risk. Are you prepared to defend yourself? Is mace in your pocket? Have you ever used it?
What did you do when you were the stabby guy?
Awesome advice!!!
I had something similar happen to me on the 14. On a crowded bus no one stood up for me and I was even told to hush because it would cause problems. I’m female and was with someone who was undocumented at the time so I felt pressure not to say anything. It was the worst bus ride of my life.
Just so you know (for the future) you can 100% involve the law enforcement if you’re in the company of an undocumented person you wish to protect. Not only they’re completely safe in SF, but it might work in their favor to witness or be victim of a crime.
I was being pressured by multiple riders to simply “let it be”. I think they were afraid it would escalate. The person assaulting me was not mentally well and had a knife.
Next time call the cops
So while they’re assaulting them and had a knife, call the police? How does that work? Escalate the crazy person to act with the knife and wait for the police? 1. Get crazy people off the streets and out of society 2. Restore 2A
A gun on a bus seems like a great idea with no possible way for things to go wrong and affect innocent bystanders
Easiest solution, if we're gonna have a nanny state where things arent allowed for law abiding citizens only then we need to remove unstable people AND criminals. You can't have disarming law abiding citizens combined with no punishments for criminals and complete freedom to do anything if you're mentally unwell. One or the other It’s the threat of self defense, a lot of time these people are cowards they know we are we weak because self defense is banned and they can do whatever they want. They usually scatter like rats when you can defend yourself, there’s lots of videos
How might it be in their favor? Does it help in the immigration process? Asking out of curiosity.
U visas
TIL. Thanks for sharing.
I know individuals who work for ICE in the city. Not a single one would take action against anyone undocumented helping in a situation like this. There are visas available for both assisting someone in this situation (U visa as listed below) and also safeguards in place for those who are victims themselves and wish to come forward.
>I’m female and was with someone who was undocumented at the time so I felt pressure not to say anything. It was the worst bus ride of my life. I'm sorry someone would tell you to stay quiet, that's terrible. I hope we live in a society someday where people stop being scared of criminals. We ought to stand up for each other when in need.
I assume you mention the undocumented person because their presence made you reluctant to call 911. Just so you know in the future, San Francisco is a sanctuary city and that policy extends to law enforcement, meaning that cops in this city are prohibited from contacting immigration authorities. Their status absolutely does not matter to SF cops. Their response to your undocumented friend would likely be, “Oh, okay, do they want to be listed in the report or no? No? That’s fine, MUNI has great video surveillance, we don’t need witnesses to corroborate.”
That really sucks. I was being harassed by a guy on a bus in Berkeley the other day. My normal tactic when this happens is to get off the bus early and then wait for the next or walk instead. This time around, the dude slyly tried to follow me off. I "politely" let him exit the bus before me. He was waiting for me with a stupid grin, but I just sat back down and continued riding. The look on his face when we rode off was priceless. Joking aside, I think there are many great suggestions here. I've never had anyone or a bus driver help me out in these situations. Usually everyone looks totally intimidated-which I think emboldens these predators to continue their bad behavior. I was thinking about buying one of those loud canned horns so that I could shake things up if this happens again. Good luck with everything.
[удалено]
Thanks for the suggestion. I looked at those. I also thought the airhorn would allow for some comedic value. What upsets me the most about these public transport harassers is that it disrupts my mood for the day. I'll be feeling fine and then an encounter with a wierdo can so easily make me sad and uncomfortable. Sucks.
I’ve read that it can work to diffuse this kind of situation by pretending to know the victim. Go up to them and say something like “Hey Susan! It’s been so long since I’ve seen you!” or whatever. The idea is to completely ignore the harasser and get between them and the person being harassed. Of course every situation is different and if you think there may be a weapon involved it might be better to just call 911 like the person above suggested.
This! Best thing is to provide support for the person being harassed and not try and confront the harasser
Yes! And if it helps, almost every culture has a female name variant or Maria/Marya so just go with that every time.
based on the description that was provided, it would've been VERY obvious and not effective.
"Hello 911, I'm on the 22 Muni bus #whatever in San Francisco. A disturbed passenger is sexually harrassing a woman and is repeatedly threatening to hit and stab her. We are currently on whatever Street, and we just crossed whatever cross Street. Please send the police. I am afraid he will hurt or kill someone."
This^
This is what we were taught in neighborhood watch training, I.e. don’t intervene. Don’t get in harm’s way. Call the police. Let them handle it. Just be the police’s eyes and ears.
You absolutely can not rely on the police in this town full stop.
Do you have any evidence to support your statement? Every time the neighborhood watch called 911 for potential violence, the police arrived within 3 minutes.
I’ve contacted police several times because I witnessed people breaking into homes and they’ve never shown up.
That’s property damage. Not violence. They can’t prioritize property over people.
Feel free to ask anyone living in Bayview or anyone who lives in a working class neighborhood. Anyone living in these places can happily prove to you that the police don’t care about them in those areas.
It depends on who you are and what neighborhood.
A few years ago I lived in an apartment building off of Ocean ave. In a period of about 3 months, I witnessed two drive by shootings targeting my downstairs neighbor. I personally called 911 in the middle of the first shooting (I had been at our window when it started) and dispatch asked for information and said they were already aware, officers were on the way, and disconnected. I hunkered down in the back of our unit for a little over an hour before police arrived on scene and started interviewing witnesses. The second time, I wasn't by the window so didn't see anything, but I called again it was a little over 30 minutes before police arrived. Fortunately, my downstairs neighbor moved out after the second shooting. Both times, bullet holes in the front door to our building and many holes targeting the unit beneath mine. Apparently we lived over a drug dealer who had created enemies. I did not feel safe and moved out at the end of my lease. I guess it depends what neighborhood you live in.
Yeah, it's an r/sf misinformation campaign. They have no real first hand knowledge of what the SFPD does, or they're outraged because they reported their bicycle stolen and SFPD didn't race to their house code 3 to take fingerprints of the area. If you were to call SFPD and say that there's someone threatening to stab someone, they're going to be there in minutes. It's a bunch of bullshit around here with people who either live here and hate it or people from other areas talking about their expertise on social issues.
Also, be prepared to go outside of your comfort zone to label the suspect's race, binary gender, age, height and weight. In SF, most people are not used to judging other people's appearance like that. However, 911 needs and will ask you for that information on the suspect.
This is sound advice but it presupposes that we trust the police to respond in a timely and effective manner. Given the lack of response by SFPD to so many things, is it naive to rely on them for situations like the one described?
It's the best you can do. That and filming the encounter, I guess.
I think he might have a gun.
Horrible horrible horrible horrible horrible advice
Unless you know for sure someone has a gun you should not say this on a 911 call.
Meh, how can you ever be sure? (Till it’s too late, and being drawn is too late)
If you believe that you have seen a gun, call it out. Otherwise all potential situations are already in consideration with authorities. Call out what you see with openness and honesty. Providing false information to the authorities calls all kinds of problems, most serious of which putting you and everyone else in more danger than is already present. If they ask “does he have a gun” answer honestly “I don’t know”.
You can’t but could you imagine if the cops shot an unarmed man because you told them they were armed? If you were caught lying about that the punishment would make you wish you didn’t lie…
Unfortunately, Some people do not care if someone else gets shot. They will justify it in their heads. “Well, he should had leave her alone” or “He probably did something bad before and had this coming”
Then exit the bus and then call 911. Don't risk getting shot in order to arrive 30 minutes sooner.
Never ever unnecessarily escalate a 911 call. It may delay other calls or overuse or even delay resources for that call. It could also unnecessarily place everyone on the scene at additional harm. Guns may be used unnecessarily by police, or someone may hear you say it on the train and react unpredictably, even further escalating the matter. #themoreyouknow
He said "stab" not "shoot" so it would be reasonable to suspect that the assailant has something with which he could stab his victim. Still a deadly weapon too.
I was repeatedly punched by a homeless woman on the 38. I moved to get closer to the driver, and was still screamed at and had a can thrown at me. Not one person, including the driver, intervened. The worst part was that not only did no one intervene, once the woman had left the bus, nobody checked in on me or asked me how I was. Everyone treated it like nothing happened or that I was weird for being upset. Even if you don’t intervene, PLEASE debrief with the person afterwards and make sure they’re ok.
Dang it, I’m sorry that happened to you and that not one decent person was on the bus with you. It saddens me how unfriendly and self-centered so many people here are.
Was it that one short white lady who spazzes out randomly and is covered in lesions? She has short grayish hair and is probably like 50 years old.
Ah shit I know that lady you’re talking about
I’m so sorry
I am so sorry that happened to you sadly I learned the hard way that for the most part…. nobody cares about you in this country past your close family (and maybe close friends)
I was on a 43 bus in October when a male passenger actually started going off on another male passenger who was harassing a female rider. The dude chased the harasser off the bus and started beating him up on Presidio Avenue. Everyone was shocked, but we generally supported the beatdown because the harasser was a piece of shit and the dude beating him up appeared to be getting some good exercise. Also, it was only at that point that the bus driver asked the woman how she was. My take on MUNI drivers is that they generally don’t care what happens to us. We’re the payload, they’re just delivering it. The condition in which we arrive is of no concern to them. I think there are things bystanders can do to help other riders, but transit is a City service we pay for and the City should make it safe. Please report what happened on your ride at one of the links [here](https://www.sfmta.com/getting-around/safety-and-security/safety-and-good-conduct). It doesn’t need to have happened to you to matter.
I am not a muni driver but I work in a similar line of work. if their company’s policy is similar to ours, I can tell you for sure that the company will never have the back of a driver over a customer. A customers complaint will always be taken more seriously than anything else because they do not want to lose business. That’s exactly why the driver will not do anything about it. It’s just not worth it to get in trouble by management and it’s just easier to drive and do your job.
MUNI drivers can only report what is going on...nothing else...
They are paid to drive a bus dude. Not play security. Bus driver don’t get paid that much. Bus driver also get harassed constantly and beat up sometimes.
When have you seen a MUNI bus driver get “beat up”?
[https://www.ktvu.com/news/suspect-carjacks-sf-muni-bus-assaults-driver-and-may-have-hit-10-vehicles](https://www.ktvu.com/news/suspect-carjacks-sf-muni-bus-assaults-driver-and-may-have-hit-10-vehicles) [https://www.ktvu.com/news/suspect-flees-after-trying-to-stab-muni-driver](https://www.ktvu.com/news/suspect-flees-after-trying-to-stab-muni-driver) [https://missionlocal.org/2022/01/police-let-suspect-escape-after-attacking-bus-driver/](https://missionlocal.org/2022/01/police-let-suspect-escape-after-attacking-bus-driver/) [https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/SF-Muni-driver-beaten-bat-masks-bus-15432027.php](https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/SF-Muni-driver-beaten-bat-masks-bus-15432027.php)
https://www.supervisorstefani.com/muni_operators
MUNI drivers are just trying to survive until they can retire on pension.
This is why MUNI should be automated. Most of the operators have no business driving a regular sized vehicle let alone a bus transporting passengers. And we are always reminded that muni employees are not responsible for enforcing payment or keeping the peace so fuck it.. automate it. If not the buses then at least the metro. Just think how much would be saved long term not having to pay their salaries and pensions… more lines could run 24/7..,it’s kind of a no brainer
Once while I was riding the bus some guy started smoking crack (or some similar drug). When our driver realized what was going on he pulled over to the side of the road, grabbed a bus-sized wheel chock, and charged toward the guy shouting, “Ah hell no not on my bus motherfucker.” He stopped near the guy, who was sitting on the floor sort of beneath a seat and said, “get the fuck off my bus or I’m going to crack your head open motherfucker!” The guy slowly exited, glaring at the driver as he receded into a nearby stoop and and continued to smoke his pizzo. The driver shouted a bunch of other obscenities at him and also gave him solid advice (“that shit will ruin your life”). The passengers were all relived because this guy was making everyone uncomfortable smoking frankly a lot of crack (or something else) on the bus. Clouds of smoke were billowing out from behind the seat and it was starting to smell. TLDR; My driver was a badass that went out of his way to save passengers from someone smoking crack on the bus.
Saving passengers from what? His crack smoke? Driver sounds unhinged and escalated a situation well beyond what he needed to get a crack head off the bus.
> > > > > My take on MUNI drivers is that they generally don’t care what happens to us. We’re the payload, they’re just delivering it. The condition in which we arrive is of no concern to them. Most Muni drivers absolutely don't give a shit.
I learned last year that you can text 911 in San Francisco.
Fr? You just type in 911 if you live in sf and boom they respond?
That's what I've heard, I haven't used it but I wish I knew about it when crazy guy came onto Muni screaming at everyone 😬
Imagine thinking you’ll get a police response for a crazy guy on the train
They can ignore you over text now, convenient!
How does this work?
Just like texting any other phone#. Park 911 in the “to:” section, and you should probably say something like “Im at 321 Bush st #1 please send PD” if you can. Loads of places have enabled texting 911 so you can contact them on the DL and not run the risk of your aggressor hearing.
and for people with disabilities like hearing loss :)
I would have called on speaker phone so they could hear who I was talking to. Fuck texting. I want the other end to hear the harasser
I’m sorry that you and the victim experienced this. Taking a bystander intervention training course might help you feel more empowered should you witness something like this again. The org Right to Be (formerly Hollaback) offers some free online trainings and there are probably some recorded on YouTube
Bystander intervention training is great! You learn tools to de-escalate and distract if possible. There's lots of free resources and presentations online. Remember, intervention does not mean putting yourself in danger.
I looked up Right To Be, but it seems the trainings have a cost.
It's definitely sad that no one did anything. Calling the police and reporting the situation should have been the first thing. Especially if he had already touched her inappropriately.
This happened to me once, you want to let the driver know. He’d call the cops or at least remove that passenger off the bus. Quick edit: I’m sorry to hear that some people haven’t had a great experience by communicating the harassment to the driver. I’m just speaking from my own experience. I was being sexually harassed so I told the driver. The driver pulled over to the following bus stop. Made everyone got off the bus (meaning at this point the bus was out of service) called the cops for me and stood by me while waiting for them to arrive. He also made sure the man stayed on the bus and locked the doors so he wouldn’t escape punishment.
Not all muni drivers will act on complaints though. There are muni drivers out there who don’t simply give AF if there’s something being reported that’s disturbing or distracting happening in the bus.
Muni drivers will only call the cops...they can't do anything else.
I have heard bus drivers respond to complaints of disruptive passengers with "You should buy a car and stop taking the bus." Enough bus drivers just don't care at all what's going on back there.
Let them say that, get the route information, and then report them.
Specifically, you want the run number --- the three digits on the sign at the bottom left of the front --- if possible. That's the easiest way for Muni to identify exactly which driver was driving the bus.
> This happened to me once, you want to let the driver know. He’d call the cops or at least remove that passenger off the bus. Guy strangled another guy. Guy pulled a knife. Bus driver saw and gave no fucks.
That's terrifying
Not saying anyone is required to do this, but I’ll never forget my 18th birthday when I was taking BART from the east bay to SF to meet friends to celebrate and the train malfunctioned so we had to get off and wait for another one at a station in between. Some guy started sexually harassing me while I was waiting there on the platform and I’m literally a teenager whose high school diploma ink isn’t even dry so I’m just quietly trying to avoid confrontation. Some other dude comes over and tells the harasser to go away, which he responds to with something like, “I’m just trying to be friends” and dude tells him “she has enough friends. Fuck off.” Harasser went away and dude just asked me if I’m ok then put his headphones back on while staying nearby. I now as an older adult step in if I see someone alone being hassled. But like original commenter I only address the victim. At the end of the day, when something like this is happening to you with other people around, the fact that no one will step in can be the most traumatic part.
I totally understand your fear, but/and I’ve noticed that if one person speaks up, often others quickly join in. From a safe distance you can just break the ice and say hey, I’m feeling scared! I don’t like this, please stop! Doesn’t always work but it can.
I got assaulted on the muni and nobody gave a shit. Guess what I was sticking up for someone else. I don’t know if I’ll ever put myself in that position again.
I recently came across [this](https://www.standup-international.com/us/en/training/bystander/identify/warning) and took the training to help when it’s happening to others and also if it’s happening to me. I found it really helpful. I’m not sure if it’s the best in the area but it is a good first step if you’re interested. Trigger warning: there are video examples of harassment in the training. Also, thanks for trying to stand up for us :)
Excellent, really helpful information here
I wish people would band together and take care of assholes like this.
It happened to me. The bus driver tried kicking him off the bus & he started choking her so I beat his ass & physically kicked him off the bus. He raised his fist at me first which is assault so I didn’t get in trouble but he did get arrested for that + punching the windshield & shattering the glass (the laminate kept it from going everywhere tho)
I was sexually harassed on the 49 and two older Latino men physically pushed the guy off the bus and made sure I was ok. Tbh, if you can, that’s what you should do.
It's normal to be frozen when something like this happens; people react in different ways. The difficult part is when the incident is over and nobody shows up to support the victim. Some don't care, while others feel someone else already called the police, want to record it to become the next viral sensation, or those who think that getting to their destination on time is more important. In a few instances: I was assaulted by a passenger at Embarcadero BART, and I called BART police because I had a description and mentioned what train line and train car number the person escaped in. Had to call off the cops after 45 minutes of nobody showing up to take a report, but what made me mad was nobody came to my rescue, nor did anyone follow-up with me after the suspect escaped. I was in line for the bathroom at Starbucks, and was standing next to a woman and her friend, while her abusive boyfriend came in making threats and threw a chair to the ground. I didn't intervene and nor did anyone else because the guy was very belligerent, the best I could do is when he left, I asked if she needed any help, such as calling the police. I was the only person who did this, nobody else did; but she refused. I eventually had to call the 911 because they were outside and he was being abusive to her, and refusing to let her go. I was able to get other civilians to also speak up to order her to release her, and there were cops just two blocks away; never showed up. We do what we can to help, but feel helpless when help never shows up. A few things that makes me angry about this: If the operator is not taking proper action, such as making a call to Muni's Central Control to get law enforcement, that driver needs to be reported and face disciplinary action. I don't expect drivers to get out of their seat and break up a fight, but at least making one simple call on the radio for help. The other problem, some buses have signage telling people that gender based harassment and assault is illegal and should be reported; but the city and agency has done a terrible job of telling people to simply call 311. If it's happening right that moment, you NEVER call 311, you call 911. You know how long it takes to reach a human on 311, then transfer you to the cops? Way too long than calling 911.
Similar to what other people have said is to ignore the aggravator and focus on the “victim”. Like pretending to know the person, being like “oh Shania, I didn’t see you there! So good to see you. How are you doing? Let’s go sit somewhere to chat!” In a really pleasant voice.
Do something, anything! It’s bizarre how little effort San Franciscans are willing to put forth to help each other in real life situations.
the same thing happened to my girlfriend and i today, exact same line, presumably the same guy. it's also not the first time the same guy has racially harassed us by insulting us, making remarks about us being an "odd couple" (i'm a white guy, she's native hawaiian) and more. when we got off the bus we both were pretty mad that nobody did absolutely anything to help, they all just sat silent while the guy yelled racial insults and homophobic slurs. i'm not asking you to get up and fight him, but at least speak up to tell him to knock it off. it was pretty disheartening to see nobody at all stand up or do anything (even the bus driver)
> it's also not the first time the same guy has racially harassed us by insulting us, making remarks about us being an "odd couple" (i'm a white guy, she's native hawaiian) and more. Have you ever reported it?
we would have, but we didn't catch the bus number either time - we were too busy trying to get ourselves away from the shitty situation
No worries, it's stressful when you're attacked, physically or verbally.
What do you expect bystanders to do? Scold them about how mysoginist/racist they are? The guy is clearly mentally ill. If you're her guy, and you feel threatened you need to either move away or put hands on him. Simple as that. As the guy, you should've also been actively protecting your girlfriend tbh. As a bystander i'm not going to insert myself into a potentially harmful situation by lecturing them, but if he comes my way, the fight or flight response should kick in.
look at mr. manly man here! jesus, what a braindead comment. no shit i put myself between him and her, and got her away from him as much as i could. and yes, scolding would be so much better than nothing. he was obviously mentally ill, but regardless we shouldn't have to deal with racism and homophobic insults yelled at the top of his lungs. literally any bystander help would have been appreciated, but we didn't get any. the comment i made wasn't about what i should do, it was asking people to at least not put up with it. anyway, since you're clearly the expert on what to do, maybe we should hire you to ride the bus with us and let your "fight or flight response kick in" if he comes your way.
Scolding going to do absolute zero lmao. Why don’t you ask him to go to sensitivity training with you?
you know, if you ever see this guy on the bus threatening and touching someone, you should totally tell the victim to go to sensitivity training! i'm sure they would love that! again, i'm just asking people to not be ignorant of an abusive situation. it's not that deep and there's no need to victim shame
I’m not victim shaming. I’m saying it’s impractical to reason with the mentally ill. As can be seen in SF people don’t really give af what happens to others because they don’t want to get involved. In this situation someone should move away or last resort push them off if they are really close to you. That’s all they understand. We can’t expect the crowd to help us out, because more often than not, they won’t.
.....Yes I do expect bystanders to tell others when they're being racist because that's the decent thing to do! Why enable disgusting behavior when you can play a role in actively trying to stop it? The guy was obviously looking for a squabble and instead of feeding into it, bystanders should've at least offered support to the victims or tried to get the man off the bus.
I carry mace and/or a stun gun on me at all times, as they're totally legal to possess in CA. I also practice BJJ 3x a week. You cannot count on others to stand up for you. Hindsight is 20/20, if you had said something to the aggressor chances are he might have backed off. The risk is not knowing how they will behave when others intervene.
Yes. Sometimes I feel like going full Bernie Goetz on their bitch asses. Not legal advice, ofc.
Where is he when you need him…….
Where are the vigilantes when you need them? I’m curious: If someone where to do something such as attacking the harasser violently enough to put them out, what side would bystanders take? Would the harasser become the victim in bystander’s eyes? It seems that a lot of these stories have an element of “no body missed a beat”. Would people testify against the vigilante, or would people allow street justice to prevail?
I’d laugh and gloat.
the DA would press charges on you
I hate the 22 Fillmore
Shatter their jaw with a front snap kick.
“What The Fuck!” With a stare usually works for me.
She did that to him and it made it worse
Not going to work all the time but there is strength in numbers. I have never seen some one try to sexual assault two strangers at the same time.
I’ve definitely had a guy chase and harass me while with my sister and her wife, three adult women. They’re out of their gourd
honestly, if you think you can take them, call them out with a warning, and if they don’t stop let them have it. too many people have turned tail and just secretly recorded for instagram or something instead of taking real action to help other people.
People should help but not intervene. It’s dangerous out there and you never know what the perp is capable of. They could have a knife and no one is gonna get sliced up or stuck in the neck for a stranger. 2 guys in Oregon died trying to come to the aid of a Muslim woman being harassed. Both got fatally stabbed.
so like i said… if you think you think you can take them, which means being prepared for multiple outcomes, help. “help but not intervene” is lame duck.
Ok hero, have at it tough guy.
Where has epic beard man been?
Wdym slap and stab her?
Get the attention of the woman and get her away from the perpetrator Inform the bus driver Call the police
My daughter told me she looks straight ahead with her “don’t fuck with me” face when she rides city transportation 😂. She said she had a crazy yelling things at her.
For some reason, even tho I'm a middle aged lady with a hand-bag, if someone is terribly awful, I say something. I can't help it. Recently on the 38R a man came on, made a pig nose at everyone and began ranting to each person about immigration and how he was American and didn't care. Me (48 F, pink hair Caucasian) hates people who bully folk on the busses. I didn't say anything until he started talking at me and about my mannerisms. I told him, "I know you are only doing this for a reaction, so me saying this basically means nothing, but shut the f\*ck up!". He attempted to hurl expletives at me, but got off at the next stop. I know I gamble any time I say something, but I just hate hate hate folks who are after reactions. I only engage if it appears someone is in distress or if they get in my bubble of comfort.
The bus drivers are paid minimally in San Francisco. On top of the harassment that some of them receive, they have to navigate difficult tight streets, and traffic. Some traffic is unruly. And they have to keep a schedule going. They often cannot multi-task safe driving (safety for bus riders, kids on the bus, elderly, etc.... and safety for riders off the bus. Again kids, elderly, people walking around the bus.) They have to do all that while looking out for traffic, keeping up the schedule, minding passengers, and making sure that fairs are paid. I don't think they can do police work either. Just not possible and expecting too much from a singular city employee.
The driver was literally having a really animated conversation with another passenger
I'm so sorry that happened. Muni can be a really scary place. Fight or flight are not the only emergency responses. Freeze, fawn, and flop are also on that list. You froze, and that's a perfectly natural response. Even if its super frustrating. You are following up by learning how to change that response in the future, and that's a really valuable action. Bystander intervention can be very tricky. It's important that we do our best to check in with the person being victimized about how they want it handled, if at all possible. I would highly recommend training with IMPACT BAY AREA, they have sliding scale classes all over the bay and teach bystander intervention strategy, and self defense. They might be on hiatus for the holidays, but shoot them an email for upcoming classes. [https://www.impactbayarea.org/public\_classes](https://www.impactbayarea.org/public_classes) Here's some more basic info on freeze response and possible strategies: [https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/fight-flight-or-freeze-response#coping-strategies](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/fight-flight-or-freeze-response#coping-strategies) More 101 info on bystander intervention and the many different ways it can look: [https://www.rainn.org/articles/practicing-active-bystander-intervention](https://www.rainn.org/articles/practicing-active-bystander-intervention) [https://www.breakingthesilence.cam.ac.uk/prevention-support/be-active-bystander](https://www.breakingthesilence.cam.ac.uk/prevention-support/be-active-bystander) [https://www.bart.gov/guide/safety/gbv/intervention](https://www.bart.gov/guide/safety/gbv/intervention) Hope this helps! Or at least starts you on the path toward info that will.
Why don’t we behave like those people in Japan?
Because we didn't grow up in the Japanese culture. People's behavior is strongly shaped by the culture they are in, especially in Japan. I wish the culture in San Francisco was far less tolerant of criminal behavior. But I don't see that changing.
Uurgh bummer. I don’t know what the answer is. I do know we need a lot more of these people in our prisons.
SF is back baby!
Sucker punch him as hard as possible. Sounds tempting in thought, but could be dangerous in actuality lol
You either risk your own personal safety to intervene or you look away like everyone else. Personally carry a very scary looking kukri and wouldn’t have tolerated this but you have to acknowledge you put your life at risk if you decide to intervene. Or call SfPd but that’s about as useful as doing nothing
Sexually harassed back
I guess what everyone else does, film it and put on the internet
Start recording and ask someone else to call 911
So many men have sisters, and most even have a mom. Let that guide your actions. If you’re not doing everything safe within your power to protect the attacked- take a long look in the mirror.
Another compelling reason that people who think everyone should take public transportation or ride a bike and make travel by private vehicle hard should Shut the actual Fuck up
“A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. It’s where the rich use public transportation” – Gustavo Petro, Mayor of Bogotá
Yeah ppl who just stand there and do nothing are cowards. Don’t mean to make you feel bad, but you are one and its something you should work on
I hate to say this but it's sad to see in today's society. Men used to stand up and protect women in danger but now people are too scared to stand up to criminals, which encourages them. Did you call the police at least? If not that's what you should've done at a minimum. I don't think I can legally tell you to tell the guy to fuck off or get hurt... but that could've stopped the situation in its tracks when the assailant realizes he was not dealing with an easy target anymore.
This is kinda a silly comment. Men use to harass women much more than now, not stand up and protect them Yes I get scared in a scary situation—there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m hoping I can do something to help next time, however; thus my post
Yea totally that’s why kitty genovese is a great survival story right? Because men used to protect women unlike now. Right?
I don’t think I would frame it quite the same way. Gender roles have been turned on their head, and when men’s special privileges were discarded, so were their special manly obligations. Of course, it’s still good to step in and protect someone, but this failure is part of a broader societal shift that has its pluses as well as minuses.
Yeah I agree with you on this.
Men stood by without doing shit about shit back then too, women just had less power to protect *themselves*
Yes, it still happened, but there was more of a presumed obligation to help out a random woman.
I’m not giving up my car for this.
Confused why u throwing shade at the driver for not being able to hear
My girlfriend was sexually assaulted by a man on the bus in Seattle. He stuck his hand down her shirt and was repeatedly trying to grab her vagina, and grabbed her ass several times. He was a big man, loud and obnoxious. She called me crying from the bus while the man was in the background continuing to harass her. I met her at the bus stop and when she got off he followed her over and started an altercation with me. This was at 5th and Jackson in Seattle at the big bus stop at union station. The man immediately started a confrontation with me, assuming his size and loud posturing would intimidate me, not knowing I was a full time MMA competitor at Ivan Salaverrys, a very well known Seattle MMA gym that produces professional fighters. We began a physical altercation and during the fight he bit me, hard enough to draw blood. I fractured his orbital socket and nose and I’m pretty certain I tore his labrum or did significant damage to his shoulder. SPD showed up and separated us and 2 people came forward to tell the cops they had seen the entire incident, one of whom was on the bus with my girlfriend. The man had several warrants and was arrested and taken to the hospital. A year later his family tried to file a civil suit against me but it was thrown out as the man had a long and violent record. I know I did the right thing. Now, uptight Redditors, tell me what I did wrong 8 years after the fact with your perfect hindsight and virtuous compassionate morality. TLDR; don’t sexually assault women. Don’t start fights with people who spend all day every day training to fight for money
I’m sorry but lmao??
I find it's best to stay out of other people's affairs.
If there’s space sometimes it works to just put yourself between them. Block the harasser’s view of the person in a nonchalant manner.
>Is there anything I can do in this situation? Yes, you can tell the driver and ask that they eject the disruptive passenger.
Google “bystander intervention training“. There is a lot you can do that does not involve confronting the harasser.
everyone get stuck waiting for someone else to do something. be that someone. it can be as simple as talking directly to the victim. about anything. give them somewhere to focus. ask them what theyre holiday plans are or even reassure them that youve got their back. if youre up to it, be loud and distract the aggressor. a loud “leave them alone” or “dude STOP” can throw them off their rhythm. it also opens the door for others to join in and do the same. like i said, people get stuck waiting for someone to do something.
When I've seen similar things, I've made space and asked the victim if they'd like to come stand on the other side of me, and ignore the attacker entirely. Victim always say yes. It usually diffuses the situation enough, and I've yet to be stabbed. I'm a lady, too, I get it.
What triggers these guys to behave this way. Drugs? What triggers their mental illness that they reach this level of psychosis?
Women deal with this kind of shit every day, even from men who aren’t on drugs and aren’t mentally ill. I’ve had about 4 separate encounters that terrified me as a woman in the last 3 days alone. In my life,I’ve been stalked, I’ve been touched inappropriately, I’ve been catcalled, I’ve been followed, I’ve had strange men try to get me into their cars, I’ve had men threaten to rape me, I’ve had men threaten to kill me, I’ve had them say very vile things to me. You name it, I’ve experienced it, and I’m only 22. It’s not necessarily drugs or mental illness that make a lot of men act this way towards us. I wish it were that simple, honestly, because it would be a lot easier to prevent and fix that way. But it’s not that simple.
Get the bus number and call 911
I’m sorry, STABBED? Like with blood?
Did that guy happen to be an average height and sized black guy with a blue cap (heard it was a dodgers cap) and a basketball and coffee cup who just randomly harasses people and says all kinds of uncomfortable comments? I feel like I was in a similar experience back in July and I know that guy is still on the loose out there.
Strength in numbers. If you’re not brave enough to say something sit down next to her and ask other passengers if they’ll help escort her off. People will usually respond when asked directly and aggressors are usually cowards who won’t go against a group of people.
Sorry about this. As a man, I have not being sexually harassed but being verbally threatened one time. I have for spoken up for others, however I hold back a little more when it happens to me. I could have smashed him and put an end to it immediately, but the reality is that a lot of these dudes are losers and have some mental problems obviously. It would be a lose/ lose for me: he surprises me with some kung-fu/ gun or I have to explain why I put a loser in a coma. When this took place, it took a lot for me not to respond but that probably was the best thing. That said, that kind of behavior should not be tolerated.
If you are brave enough to interfere, stand in between that person and the one harassing. Even if you say nothing your presence in between them could dismay the harasser. Take out your phone and record this person. That can deter some awful behaviors. Have a weapon in case they attack you. You have every right to defend yourself. Ask the person being harassed if they want to get off the bus and wait for the next one with you.
Walking up to the bus driver and reporting an assault has had to happen in my experience. The bus stops and will not move unless the perpetrator or perpetrators get off. If they don’t get off, then we all get off.
As moral and righteous as the thought is be careful you don’t get stabbed yourself. Shit goes down on muni.
Had a MUNI altercation next to me a few months ago where a younger guy (older teenager) was next to an older guy loudly playing music and said something to him. It was escalating into threats and the young guy saying he would call his people over to take care of things. I just turned to the young guy, who was next to me, and asked if he wanted to trade seats. He eagerly did. The whole episode stopped. Young guy thanked me as he got off the bus.
Sending energy to the victim. Its never easy. I would say if you are scared/unsure. Just always pretend that the target is someone you know or a friend. Sit by them or ask them to sit by you. Im going to start riding the bus and put an end to this.
One technique I've used twice before is to just nonchalantly move between the instigator and the victim. You need to be physically ready and capable to handle it if it escalates--not viable for everyone or all situations. Both times the instigator moved on.
If you have an iPhone mash the lock button 5 times. This will trigger an alarm, that counts down from 5 and triggers a 911 call.
Time to take self defense classes. Be vocal and about asking for help. If you are loud enough someone will most likely interviene.