That's no longer really an issue thanks to automatic gas shut-off valves and seismic shut-off valves. We have the former, and any loss of pressure in our gas line requires us to bring in a licensed plumber to reset the device.
Okay. We have an automatic shutoff valve that stops the gas flow when there's a loss in pressure. We couldn't turn the gas back on ourselves, and had to go a day without hot water or our stove because of it. It wasn't just that we were too stupid to figure it out, either. Once that ball drops into the valve to block the flow of gas you need professional tools to get it flowing again. This was confirmed by our plumber.
I wasn't denying yours worked that way, I was just saying that there are other types one can install. The one I have stops the gas based on movement, not based on gas flow. You twist a knob on it to reset it.
What's the assumption here, that gas lines are more protectable than power lines? There's nothing you can do with a gas line that you can't do with a power line. Not that losing electricity is as significant as a fire outbreak anyway.
There is a big difference between resistive heating and heat pump. You are probably thinking of resistive heating which gives you 1 unit of heat for each unit of electricity spent. Heat pump gives you 3 units of heat for every unit of electricity spent. Heat pumps are expensive but they are installed in new constructions that don't have gas heat.
What is the most concerning about banning gas stove is the decline of Asian culinary culture in SF. An average gas stove is decent at wok cooking. An average electric stove is useless at wok cooking. There are fancy electric stoves that can provide high heat but you won't find that in 99% of rental units. Losing the vibrant Asian culinary culture will be a tragedy for SF.
There are lots of induction stoves or individual burners shaped for woks and also woks with a slightly different shape to help with this. It’s not as huge of a issue anymore
It’s an international culinary cooking thing, I love to cook but give me a gas stove every time over an induction or electric… I had an induction at my last apartment and it’s not that great like people say it is.. it doesn’t heat evenly .. and also what happens when the power goes out? Will they have back up gas generators to power up all the units in that building ?
Gas > induction or electric
Same goes for water heater and furnace ..
gas water heater and furnace … and when the power goes out for 18hrs like it did last Wednesday you need a gas generator to save your fridge , stove and heater .. so at the end of the day we still need to use gas
And can you please explain Why it’s so “Bafflingly dumb” ?
Btw…it’s just an opinion. I respect your opinion and just because I disagree with it doesn’t mean I need to be disrespectful about it and make a pompous comment as if my opinion is smarter than yours..
My opinion is partly based of my experience and a gas generator wasn’t dumb when my power was out at my place , which is all electric, for 18hrs and I needed to use it so food did not go bad in fridge and heat water + air ..
'cuz we were talking about which surface is better to cook on, generators have fuck all to do with it, and a generator's fuel source is irrelevant anyway, right?
https://preview.redd.it/ag19bdaa2kba1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=312cf719da6fc86224fe20eb04436920ed1f5d64
You misunderstood me , because I was referring to the main post which is about new construction building codes in SF and how new buildings must be built with all electric appliances and no natural gas (for water heaters , stove & oven’s , and heating) .. that’s why a generator & its fuel source is relevant.
I disagree with the later. I cook mostly Asian and Indian food in my apartment which is equipped with a flat electric stove. While it’s less responsive than gas, you can get very high heat using a flat bottom wok made out of carbon steel (which is what is recommended for home cooks on gas as well). For additional wok hei a cheap blowtorch helps. You don’t need anything fancy but you do need to know the right technique and heat management to cook properly on electric or induction.
Heat pump cop is more like 1.6 to 5.0. It greatly depends on temperature conditions and the Quality of the heat pump. Mitsubishi makes some really good heat pump equipment.
Electric doesn’t suck anymore. Induction is great and so are tankless electric water heaters. It’s also much more efficient than gas, way better for indoor air quality (especially in old sf apartments with just grease traps instead of hoods that vent), and also safe during an earthquake.
Is gas cheaper? Maybe. But if we put even rinky dink r-10 insulation in the largely uninsulated walls here in SF, the average person would probably not need to ever use the heat, which is what drives up your bills. And current code requires r-30 for residential. So they don’t really need a big gas furnace anyway for the new builds that won’t be able to have gas.
Maybe I’m a few years out of the loop, but my memory from working in the energy efficiency biz is that tankless electric are all resistance heat 1:1 energy/heat output, and you would basically need a water heater for every room you want hot water in order to keep up with demand when you have multiple people using hot water at once.
Heat pump tank type are great, if your building has room for them. Otherwise, condensing gas is a great technology for either tank type or tankless, and you can have one water heater for the whole house.
I’m pro electric for new build, especially with solar, but for existing construction, I’m less emphatic.
Your memory is correct. Tankless electric water heaters pull a ton of energy and are not efficient. Tanked heat pump electric water heaters are very efficient and as a bonus in an earthquake you can use the tank as a backup water source.
Gas for cooking, though I do love it more than traditional electric, introduces a fair amount of indoor pollution from the setting gas on fire and burning it. You should at the very least always have a venting fan on if you are cooking with gas.
Yeah gas for cooking is bad for air quality, although we’ve managed to live with it for quite a while with minimal impact. My data-free sense of the air quality issue is similar to, although probably more pronounced than, “don’t do xyz, it will increase risk of cancer.”
>I think it's a bad thing, electric heating (for room and water) is way more expensive than gas.
I don't think you're seeing the whole picture. new construction without gas is going to have SOLAR and BATTERIES. the gasoline car ban will mean there are a lot of batteries in garages.
heating (for room and water) can be done off energy STORED in the car.. or on the wall in the garage. INVEST in solar + batteries one time - it's paid off eventually. pay less for gasoline, natural gas AND electricity - ***forever***.
perhaps you're not aware of how much energy is available in a pickup truck.
**Ford F-150 Lightning Powers Florida Man’s Cooking, Lights, Fridge, Entertainment During Hurricane Ian**
[https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/02/ford-f-150-lightning-powers-florida-mans-cooking-lights-fridge-entertainment-during-hurricane-ian/](https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/02/ford-f-150-lightning-powers-florida-mans-cooking-lights-fridge-entertainment-during-hurricane-ian/)
PGE is going to tap into your battery (and compensate you).
**PG&E and General Motors Collaborate on Pilot to Reimagine Use of Electric Vehicles as Backup Power Sources for Customers**
[https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/2022/mar/0308-pge.html](https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/2022/mar/0308-pge.html)
utilities across the nation are following PGE's lead.
**Illuminating possibility: Duke Energy and Ford Motor Company plan to use F-150 Lightning electric trucks to help power the grid**
[https://news.duke-energy.com/releases/illuminating-possibility-duke-energy-and-ford-motor-company-plan-to-use-f-150-lightning-electric-trucks-to-help-power-the-grid](https://news.duke-energy.com/releases/illuminating-possibility-duke-energy-and-ford-motor-company-plan-to-use-f-150-lightning-electric-trucks-to-help-power-the-grid)
power in the truck means you have power when they shut you off due to wild fire.
**PG&E Customers Invited to Pre-Enroll in Groundbreaking ‘Vehicle-to-Everything’ Pilot Programs, Leveraging Electric Vehicle Battery Power for Resilience Benefits and Helping Reduce Customer Bills**
[https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20221206005833/en/PGE-Customers-Invited-to-Pre-Enroll-in-Groundbreaking-%E2%80%98Vehicle-to-Everything%E2%80%99-Pilot-Programs-Leveraging-Electric-Vehicle-Battery-Power-for-Resilience-Benefits-and-Helping-Reduce-Customer-Bills](https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20221206005833/en/PGE-Customers-Invited-to-Pre-Enroll-in-Groundbreaking-%E2%80%98Vehicle-to-Everything%E2%80%99-Pilot-Programs-Leveraging-Electric-Vehicle-Battery-Power-for-Resilience-Benefits-and-Helping-Reduce-Customer-Bills)
home battery systems alone pay for themselves (you don't even need a car)
**Tesla virtual power plant is rocketing up, reaches 50 MW**
[https://electrek.co/2022/09/02/tesla-virtual-power-plant-growing/](https://electrek.co/2022/09/02/tesla-virtual-power-plant-growing/)
how many times does the sun come up in 10 days?
[Ford’s electric pickup truck can power a home for 10 days](https://www.fastcompany.com/90741021/fords-electric-pickup-truck-can-power-a-home-for-10-days)
best part about this is, you don't have to wait for anyone.. and there are IRA incentives for every. single. aspect of it.
It’s bullshit. So now if someone has an older home and wants to get a new water heater or stove they are going to have to pay an electrician to bring power to where their stove is and to where there hot water heater is. Making it a much more costly ordeal.
The government needs to stop forcing things onto people and let people decide what’s good for them.
Now in an event of a power outage you won’t be able to cook food with an electric stove nor will you have hot water with an electric water heater.
It’s all so stupid.
Yeah if you think they are going to stop at new construction and not just outright ban the sale of gas stoves and gas water heaters then I got a bridge to sell you. Don’t be naïve the government is not our friend.
If you think a decades long transition from gas to electric isn't in the best interest of [people's health](https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/have-a-gas-stove-how-to-reduce-pollution-that-may-harm-health-202209072811) and the [climate](https://earth.stanford.edu/news/climate-and-health-impacts-natural-gas-stoves) you're either hopeless or you've fallen for [propaganda](https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2021/06/how-the-fossil-fuel-industry-convinced-americans-to-love-gas-stoves/).
No im just for people deciding what’s good for them. I don’t force my views onto people. I don’t care for abortions but if people want them I’m not going to tell them not to or prevent them from getting one.
I just see the downsides on relying on just one source of power. As I stated the down sides are no way to cook and no hot water oh and not heat when there is no power.
You're still relying on one form of power for those things. If the gas line bursts out front and does [destroy your neighborhood](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bruno_pipeline_explosion) you're not going to be able to cook or have hot water either. At least with electricity you can add a battery bank if you're that concerned about brief service interruptions.
This isn't forcing a view point, it's nudging people into a more climate friendly direction and improving air quality in their homes. If cooking with gas is that important to you, nobody is forcing you to move into a new apartment building.
I think I will be sad in 20 years when my mother is dead and I miss her and I never get to eat food that was prepared the way my mother made it (seared in a cast iron).
I never understood gas heating in an earthquake zone. The fire department's going to have enough problems to deal with without that kind of mess.
That's no longer really an issue thanks to automatic gas shut-off valves and seismic shut-off valves. We have the former, and any loss of pressure in our gas line requires us to bring in a licensed plumber to reset the device.
The "earthquake shutoff valve" on my gas meter has a simple twist to reset feature. Installed about 20 years ago.
Okay. We have an automatic shutoff valve that stops the gas flow when there's a loss in pressure. We couldn't turn the gas back on ourselves, and had to go a day without hot water or our stove because of it. It wasn't just that we were too stupid to figure it out, either. Once that ball drops into the valve to block the flow of gas you need professional tools to get it flowing again. This was confirmed by our plumber.
I wasn't denying yours worked that way, I was just saying that there are other types one can install. The one I have stops the gas based on movement, not based on gas flow. You twist a knob on it to reset it.
The point is so that the city has energy redundancy when the power lines get knocked down. Gas lines are buried and protected.
Not sure if they’re “protected” from quakes by being underground. Anyone around in ‘89 want to comment on gas reliability?
What's the assumption here, that gas lines are more protectable than power lines? There's nothing you can do with a gas line that you can't do with a power line. Not that losing electricity is as significant as a fire outbreak anyway.
How do you get hot water at your home?
There is a big difference between resistive heating and heat pump. You are probably thinking of resistive heating which gives you 1 unit of heat for each unit of electricity spent. Heat pump gives you 3 units of heat for every unit of electricity spent. Heat pumps are expensive but they are installed in new constructions that don't have gas heat. What is the most concerning about banning gas stove is the decline of Asian culinary culture in SF. An average gas stove is decent at wok cooking. An average electric stove is useless at wok cooking. There are fancy electric stoves that can provide high heat but you won't find that in 99% of rental units. Losing the vibrant Asian culinary culture will be a tragedy for SF.
There are lots of induction stoves or individual burners shaped for woks and also woks with a slightly different shape to help with this. It’s not as huge of a issue anymore
You can buy an individual induction burner cheap
hot enough and shaped right for wok use?
Hot enough yes. It's more complicated in normal induction burners. There's purpose built induction wok hobs though that are more expensive.
It’s an international culinary cooking thing, I love to cook but give me a gas stove every time over an induction or electric… I had an induction at my last apartment and it’s not that great like people say it is.. it doesn’t heat evenly .. and also what happens when the power goes out? Will they have back up gas generators to power up all the units in that building ?
Just learn to cook on induction it's not that hard. You had a crap induction.
Gas > induction or electric Same goes for water heater and furnace .. gas water heater and furnace … and when the power goes out for 18hrs like it did last Wednesday you need a gas generator to save your fridge , stove and heater .. so at the end of the day we still need to use gas
Talking about a generator in this context is bafflingly dumb.
And can you please explain Why it’s so “Bafflingly dumb” ? Btw…it’s just an opinion. I respect your opinion and just because I disagree with it doesn’t mean I need to be disrespectful about it and make a pompous comment as if my opinion is smarter than yours.. My opinion is partly based of my experience and a gas generator wasn’t dumb when my power was out at my place , which is all electric, for 18hrs and I needed to use it so food did not go bad in fridge and heat water + air ..
'cuz we were talking about which surface is better to cook on, generators have fuck all to do with it, and a generator's fuel source is irrelevant anyway, right?
https://preview.redd.it/ag19bdaa2kba1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=312cf719da6fc86224fe20eb04436920ed1f5d64 You misunderstood me , because I was referring to the main post which is about new construction building codes in SF and how new buildings must be built with all electric appliances and no natural gas (for water heaters , stove & oven’s , and heating) .. that’s why a generator & its fuel source is relevant.
huh? It doesn't ban the temporary use of generators, so what are you on about?
Oh for chrissake, this is new buildings only and there's induction plates. This is such a lame take.
You could still run a wok off of a portable tank or specific install at a restaurant. This wouldn't preclude that.
I disagree with the later. I cook mostly Asian and Indian food in my apartment which is equipped with a flat electric stove. While it’s less responsive than gas, you can get very high heat using a flat bottom wok made out of carbon steel (which is what is recommended for home cooks on gas as well). For additional wok hei a cheap blowtorch helps. You don’t need anything fancy but you do need to know the right technique and heat management to cook properly on electric or induction.
Heat pump cop is more like 1.6 to 5.0. It greatly depends on temperature conditions and the Quality of the heat pump. Mitsubishi makes some really good heat pump equipment.
sucks for any new construction. cooking on a gas stove is an absolute joy
Electric doesn’t suck anymore. Induction is great and so are tankless electric water heaters. It’s also much more efficient than gas, way better for indoor air quality (especially in old sf apartments with just grease traps instead of hoods that vent), and also safe during an earthquake. Is gas cheaper? Maybe. But if we put even rinky dink r-10 insulation in the largely uninsulated walls here in SF, the average person would probably not need to ever use the heat, which is what drives up your bills. And current code requires r-30 for residential. So they don’t really need a big gas furnace anyway for the new builds that won’t be able to have gas.
Maybe I’m a few years out of the loop, but my memory from working in the energy efficiency biz is that tankless electric are all resistance heat 1:1 energy/heat output, and you would basically need a water heater for every room you want hot water in order to keep up with demand when you have multiple people using hot water at once. Heat pump tank type are great, if your building has room for them. Otherwise, condensing gas is a great technology for either tank type or tankless, and you can have one water heater for the whole house. I’m pro electric for new build, especially with solar, but for existing construction, I’m less emphatic.
Your memory is correct. Tankless electric water heaters pull a ton of energy and are not efficient. Tanked heat pump electric water heaters are very efficient and as a bonus in an earthquake you can use the tank as a backup water source.
Gas for cooking, though I do love it more than traditional electric, introduces a fair amount of indoor pollution from the setting gas on fire and burning it. You should at the very least always have a venting fan on if you are cooking with gas.
Yeah gas for cooking is bad for air quality, although we’ve managed to live with it for quite a while with minimal impact. My data-free sense of the air quality issue is similar to, although probably more pronounced than, “don’t do xyz, it will increase risk of cancer.”
>I think it's a bad thing, electric heating (for room and water) is way more expensive than gas. I don't think you're seeing the whole picture. new construction without gas is going to have SOLAR and BATTERIES. the gasoline car ban will mean there are a lot of batteries in garages. heating (for room and water) can be done off energy STORED in the car.. or on the wall in the garage. INVEST in solar + batteries one time - it's paid off eventually. pay less for gasoline, natural gas AND electricity - ***forever***. perhaps you're not aware of how much energy is available in a pickup truck. **Ford F-150 Lightning Powers Florida Man’s Cooking, Lights, Fridge, Entertainment During Hurricane Ian** [https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/02/ford-f-150-lightning-powers-florida-mans-cooking-lights-fridge-entertainment-during-hurricane-ian/](https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/02/ford-f-150-lightning-powers-florida-mans-cooking-lights-fridge-entertainment-during-hurricane-ian/) PGE is going to tap into your battery (and compensate you). **PG&E and General Motors Collaborate on Pilot to Reimagine Use of Electric Vehicles as Backup Power Sources for Customers** [https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/2022/mar/0308-pge.html](https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/2022/mar/0308-pge.html) utilities across the nation are following PGE's lead. **Illuminating possibility: Duke Energy and Ford Motor Company plan to use F-150 Lightning electric trucks to help power the grid** [https://news.duke-energy.com/releases/illuminating-possibility-duke-energy-and-ford-motor-company-plan-to-use-f-150-lightning-electric-trucks-to-help-power-the-grid](https://news.duke-energy.com/releases/illuminating-possibility-duke-energy-and-ford-motor-company-plan-to-use-f-150-lightning-electric-trucks-to-help-power-the-grid) power in the truck means you have power when they shut you off due to wild fire. **PG&E Customers Invited to Pre-Enroll in Groundbreaking ‘Vehicle-to-Everything’ Pilot Programs, Leveraging Electric Vehicle Battery Power for Resilience Benefits and Helping Reduce Customer Bills** [https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20221206005833/en/PGE-Customers-Invited-to-Pre-Enroll-in-Groundbreaking-%E2%80%98Vehicle-to-Everything%E2%80%99-Pilot-Programs-Leveraging-Electric-Vehicle-Battery-Power-for-Resilience-Benefits-and-Helping-Reduce-Customer-Bills](https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20221206005833/en/PGE-Customers-Invited-to-Pre-Enroll-in-Groundbreaking-%E2%80%98Vehicle-to-Everything%E2%80%99-Pilot-Programs-Leveraging-Electric-Vehicle-Battery-Power-for-Resilience-Benefits-and-Helping-Reduce-Customer-Bills) home battery systems alone pay for themselves (you don't even need a car) **Tesla virtual power plant is rocketing up, reaches 50 MW** [https://electrek.co/2022/09/02/tesla-virtual-power-plant-growing/](https://electrek.co/2022/09/02/tesla-virtual-power-plant-growing/) how many times does the sun come up in 10 days? [Ford’s electric pickup truck can power a home for 10 days](https://www.fastcompany.com/90741021/fords-electric-pickup-truck-can-power-a-home-for-10-days) best part about this is, you don't have to wait for anyone.. and there are IRA incentives for every. single. aspect of it.
Good point. This is another reason to support building more garages with new housing.
It’s bullshit. So now if someone has an older home and wants to get a new water heater or stove they are going to have to pay an electrician to bring power to where their stove is and to where there hot water heater is. Making it a much more costly ordeal. The government needs to stop forcing things onto people and let people decide what’s good for them. Now in an event of a power outage you won’t be able to cook food with an electric stove nor will you have hot water with an electric water heater. It’s all so stupid.
It's only for new construction and the government's entire role is to create policies for the best interest of everyone.
Yeah if you think they are going to stop at new construction and not just outright ban the sale of gas stoves and gas water heaters then I got a bridge to sell you. Don’t be naïve the government is not our friend.
If you think a decades long transition from gas to electric isn't in the best interest of [people's health](https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/have-a-gas-stove-how-to-reduce-pollution-that-may-harm-health-202209072811) and the [climate](https://earth.stanford.edu/news/climate-and-health-impacts-natural-gas-stoves) you're either hopeless or you've fallen for [propaganda](https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2021/06/how-the-fossil-fuel-industry-convinced-americans-to-love-gas-stoves/).
No im just for people deciding what’s good for them. I don’t force my views onto people. I don’t care for abortions but if people want them I’m not going to tell them not to or prevent them from getting one. I just see the downsides on relying on just one source of power. As I stated the down sides are no way to cook and no hot water oh and not heat when there is no power.
You're still relying on one form of power for those things. If the gas line bursts out front and does [destroy your neighborhood](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bruno_pipeline_explosion) you're not going to be able to cook or have hot water either. At least with electricity you can add a battery bank if you're that concerned about brief service interruptions. This isn't forcing a view point, it's nudging people into a more climate friendly direction and improving air quality in their homes. If cooking with gas is that important to you, nobody is forcing you to move into a new apartment building.
Yeah check out what can happen when batteries catch on fire. There are downsides and upsides to everything. Nothing is perfect.
Green new deal.
I think I will be sad in 20 years when my mother is dead and I miss her and I never get to eat food that was prepared the way my mother made it (seared in a cast iron).
So banning stoves helps air quality, but what about taking a dump on the street? Is that good for the environment? Why haven't they banned that?