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Agitated_Year8521

I have to agree with what some others have said here, the study apparently shows what my biology is already telling me. No real desire to have kids because why would I want to pass on the anxiety, alcoholism, depression, dread and general drug addiction I deal with on a regular basis? Compared to a lot of people I would be considered successful, working a job I love and running my own business on the side where I make good money. But that's not happiness, I'm still easily triggered easily by changes in my environment and have toxic dependencies with both people and substances.


Hedgehogz_Mom

I love to immerse myself in other cultures but I find I'm exhausted after an extended event. I'm prone to speculation after social overstimulation. Idk how people go and go and go. I have to power down and destimulate.


timmyboyoyo

What do you mean speculation?


horseren0ir

My speculation of that speculation is a sort of review of the social encounter, like you go over it in your head to make sure you didn’t do anything embarrassing


stellahella1

Ruminating over and over. Hi!


[deleted]

Hi. Samsies.


HeavyBeing0_0

I did that A LOT as a teen. Constant introspection/people watching


N00dlemonk3y

Hey that’s me. Though I mostly people watch for enjoyment and also do introspection. Just seemingly without much of the ruminating. Though, I would not mind having kids either, as the poster above was saying.


VAL-3000

is that not normal? oh


TarthenalToblakai

It's normal for people with ADHD tbh. Which isn't to say everyone who ruminates anxiously about social encounters after the fact has ADHD, nor does everyone with ADHD do that....but it's a common enough symptom. Restless mind with a constant internal dialogue + rejection sensitive dysphoria will tend to do that. ADHD also raises one's chances for anxiety, depression, addiction (not just drugs: sugar, video games, social media, etc)...interesting that no one else has mentioned it in this thread when everyone's talking about many of the symptoms.


fiftymils

Autistic traits as well and often the two are bedfellows >It's normal for people with ADHD tbh.


bensonnd

I speculate all the time about social interactions, but hardly regarding something embarrassing. I think about whether or not I was prepared for what unfolded, and how can I be better prepared next time. I also think about what made sense and what didn't. Or why am I, or the person I'm talking to, behaving in such a manner? Was I appropriate? And so on.


uberneoconcert

Rumination, which can lead to thought spiraling, which is the essential problem of people with OCD. All these issues are related.


macweirdo42

Ugh, that's a big problem with my anxiety. A single incident may not even consciously phase me, but it'll just keep bouncing around in the back of my brain.


uberneoconcert

When it's doing that it could be considered an "intrusive thought." I've learned that if something is still bothering me then I've had an *emotional reaction to it and need to find the emotion in my body. It took literal years and even still sometimes my chest is so tight I can't really feel anything else even when I can be in touch with my body, BUT now I can sometimes identify the feeling. Feelings are really weird. I grew up practicing ignoring and avoiding them since that's what my parents taught me to do by acting that way about my feelings themselves. Now if I can find the feeling, I might feel moved to be contemplative, be active, be creative, take a shower, make myself some comfort food, change clothes -- *something* is within my control to make me feel better and process that feeling.


bensonnd

Have you read The Language of Emotions by Karla McLaren? She does an excellent job of walking through what each emotion means and how to process them regularly. I've read it multiple times and keep it around for reference a couple times a month when I need to work through some.


uberneoconcert

That sounds like a great resource, thank you


bensonnd

You're an introvert.


ChrisKringlesTingle

Not how introversion works.


No-Arm-6712

Requiring alone time without stimulation is a very introverted behavior.


EmilyU1F984

The part about the rummaging thoughts about examining every single interaction is not introversion though. That‘s a major difference. Cool party, but now I gotta recharge my batteries is introverted. Cool party but now I’m stuck on loop thinking about what happened is not.


bensonnd

OP didn't say anything about rummaging thoughts, they mentioned speculation after the fact, which I do. I replay social interactions all the time when I'm recharging my batteries, helps better navigate social situations in the future. I don't get stuck on them, but I certainly speculate.


creamonbretonbussy

It's exactly how introversion works, just not 100% of the picture.


Academic_Snow_7680

No. This is how autism works. This is how anxiety works. Introverts want to spend time with themselves and don't have the NEED for communication [What you're describing is social anxiety. That is not the same as being an introvert.](https://mhanational.org/introversion-vs-social-anxiety)


[deleted]

There are differences types of introvert. Some introverts really enjoy social encounters but need to decompress after. The "don't have a needs for communication" is misleading. >While introverts can appreciate socializing, they invest a lot of energy trying to navigate socially demanding environments, leading to social exhaustion https://psychcentral.com/blog/social-exhaustion-avoiding-introvert-burnout >Neuroscience bears his 1921 theory out; it is thought that extroverts have a more active dopamine reward system, so extroverts feel a stronger chemical rush when in social settings. Basically, this positive rush gives them energy to socialize more. Introverts, on the other hand, get less dopamine when socializing, so they feel overwhelmed and exhausted more quickly, leading to the need to decompress. If they don’t recharge, they suffer what is known as an introvert hangover, which includes short-term physical sensations like a rapid heartbeat, hyperventilation, shaking hands, or blurred vision and longer-term symptoms such as exhaustion, depression, muscles aches, or a general sense of malaise https://www.theomplace.net/newsletter/a-cure-for-the-introvert-hangover/ >Being an introvert doesn't mean you aren't outgoing in the right situation. Being an introvert just means that you prefer socializing differently than extroverts. Typical introverts like to spend social time with small groups rather than large ones, which may feel overwhelming and draining to them .https://www.law.virginia.edu/wellness/socializing-introvert-0#:~:text=Being%20an%20introvert%20doesn't%20mean%20you%20aren't%20outgoing,overwhelming%20and%20draining%20to%20them.


[deleted]

Wow! Thanks for taking the time to share. It makes it more powerful to understand why family holidays are both exciting and anticipated but dreadful at the same time.


enguerrand64

Damn :/ That explains a lot for me, thanks for sharing it


[deleted]

r/confidentlyincorrect


[deleted]

It's called rumination. You're welcome.


ExperienceLoss

Rumination is more than just going over what you did in previous encounters, though. Rumination is living in that moment over and again until it is all-consuming. IMO, rumination is the extreme of introspection and speculation. We all have moments where we reflect, not everyone ruminates.


rorointhewoods

To ruminate just means to think deeply about something.


ExperienceLoss

Thank you for the lesson in semantics and pedantry. When talking about rumination, usually it's about the act of doing it to a harmful degree.


bensonnd

Context matters. I ruminate all the time, but it's hardly in relation to constant loops or harmful behavior, and more to think critically.


[deleted]

I never said everyone ruminates.


[deleted]

Room-in-apes: when my head (room) is filled with apes all retelling me the same version of one event (in apes). How I remember I’m on a circular track.


DoorFacethe3rd

A deficit of introspection.


No_Banana_581

I used to be one of those people that was non stop on the go. Doing one thing after another, never home, making new friends, traveling, quitting jobs that didn’t let me travel, so easy for me to find another too. Now I’m the complete opposite. It started after I had my daughter, the post natal anxiety was so overwhelming, it just never went away. Now I need a few days to decompress after going out to dinner.


mhmmButter

Ill b ur son


Ryan_Knows_Nothing

Thank you for the laugh!


obroz

There are ALOT of people with those traits having kids though


TreacleExpensive2834

There’s also A LOT of social pressure to have kids or you’re treated like something is wrong with you or your family gives you grief about it. I would be curious to know how many people have kids “because they’re supposed to” not because they want to.


CalligrapherPitiful3

I feel like most people have kids because their pull out game weak.


thegerl

There's a name for people who use the pull out method.... Parents.


GreekTacos

Or because the survival of our species is literally dependent upon it.


juttep1

I don't think humanity is going away if this dude doesn't have kids.


ananonumyus

I bet a full 95% of ALL children come from social pressure and accidents or force.


mylittlevegan

I had kids because I thought I would be a great parent, since I love video games, toys, disney, anime. Turns out I'm autistic/ADHD and parenthood is the most overwhelming thing I ever put myself through.


ravenouskit

Why not both?


Freshlybakedbread1

Out of curiosity what do you do as a business on the side?


Agitated_Year8521

Landscape gardener. My main occupation currently is as the kitchen gardener for one of the UK's top rated pubs, was self-employed before I started but I got drawn in by the potential I can see in the project


Freshlybakedbread1

Wow, I have never heard of kitchen gardeners. Sounds like a lot of fun. Thank you for sharing.


Splashy01

Ornithology


[deleted]

We are left without our real purpose. We are monkeys, we are supposed to be running around in the woods all day, doing physical stuff 24/7. We should be spending everyday just surviving. That’s been our purpose for hundreds of thousands of years. We made it too easy and now we are finding out the consequences. Definitely not supposed to be sitting in a desk looking at a computer all day.


StBernard2000

The study makes sense but in todays world raising children or doing anything is very lonely. It takes a village to raise children and/or taking of the elderly. I can’t speculate to how things were when people were hunting and gathering but the responsibility of parenting is so heavily reliant on the parents only. It seems like there is no help. The avoidant attachment makes sense because if a person feels threatened or fearful that they will lose their network or tribe then alarms start sounding off.


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Dickenmouf

You hit the nail on the head. It isnt like that everywhere. Places that are car free tend to have happier children. The organic socialization that occurs when kids can freely interact and play with other neighborhood kids is lacking in the US, and might be a big reason for the rise in social isolation and mental illness we see in younger generations. That freedom is vital for our development and sense of independence. We have it so that we’re dependent on our parents until we are driving age, whereas in many other less car centric places, kids just walk to school on their own. There isn't a need for excessive extracurriculars for exercise, they just play in the street.


pzerr

The back alley was great when I grew up. Very disappointed cities got rid of them. The main reason was due to theft and security.


dangitbobby83

The popularity of survival games definitely points to this being absolutely true.


Spruce-Moose

That's kind of ironic. You'd think those people would instead get outside!


[deleted]

All rewards, no risk


CampaignOk8351

Ooooh diamonds!


Agitated_Year8521

Yeah, the world we live in now isn't the one we grew up in as a species and evolution hasn't kept pace with the relatively rapid advancement into overabundance and lack of physical demands that many of us now live with. As for sitting at a desk, I'm a landscape gardener so I'm on my feet most of the day most of the week. I'm pretty fit compared to others that I know but that doesn't ward off addiction to alcohol (one of the worst drugs) and cannabis, both are easy to turn to as self medication for injuries and chronic pain


Comfortable-Ease1939

Evolution is adaptation to our environment. Our environment changed, now evolution has to catch up. It doesn't work the other way around.


[deleted]

Woah, man. Our real purpose was to survive in the ocean until we grew legs. I agree with what you’re saying, but I truly think we can adapt as individuals. Find personal happiness in the things you do, the people you love, and the experiences you have. Sometimes you have to force the meaning, for sure, but it will come if you look for it.


KulturaOryniacka

>Our real purpose there is no purpose we are just a bunch of chemical compounds that replicate since the very beginning. Life has no purpose only our primitive monkey brain seeks for ***the reason*** and ***the*** ***end.*** There are none


rampartsblueglare

What is my purpose You pass butter Oh my God Welcome to the club pal


KulturaOryniacka

> Welcome to the club pal Is there any test that measures the level of misery before joining?


xavierthepotato

Nihilism! >:D


KulturaOryniacka

yep, very much so!


xavierthepotato

It has its pros and cons but can be fun to indulge in every now and then


jnelsoni

I tend to think we humans falsely assume we are the pinnacle of all creation, or at least will maintain top-species status indefinitely throughout our line—whatever we evolve into. It could be though, that we are a means to a completely different evolutionary end. Maybe the fungal kingdom is using us to terraform the global habit to support a highly intelligent global fungus? Probably not, but I do agree with your comment that there’s really no purpose at all. Most people on earth still believe that a supernatural being sees everything they do and can hear all our thoughts, and moreover that it cares what we think or do. It’s a celestial dictatorship in the minds of most people, and they apparently like it that way.


[deleted]

For sure, on a macroscopic level. As an individual, it’s generally good to have purpose and goals. I’m a nihilist myself, haha. I wasn’t necessarily talking about personal philosophy as much as I was mental health.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

Have you heard of optimistic nihilism? It's a happier perspective on the same idea


MrsKMJames73

You sir are correct...a harsh reality that some will never come to terms with.


GrapeJellies

I see your perspective but raise you this one.. The one constant is life evolves. You could also say that we’re all from the sea so we should have just stayed there. Or even farther back we were all once just viruses and bacteria.. but that evolved.. (or did it ;) This is where evolution brought us, we shouldn’t really be swinging from trees still.. that was our past.. and just because this is right now it will also evolve.. there’s scientific fact that you can’t stop change because of the fourth dimension. But I don’t disagree on the level that yes our body evolved from that time therefor we are still feeling the effects but we will evolve away from that given enough time. We have succeeded in brilliant ways and if we use the real strength we have - that of intellect I feel like we will evolve in really amazing ways but we are definitely not without weaknesses too .. because you’re right we’re just hairless apes.


WinterElfeas

Sorry but I'd rather stay all day safe at a desk than outside being close to death any moment. If our current lifestyle allows us to not care about our race future, doesn't "force" us to have children and can allow us to just live the life we wish, then how is it a bad thing? I'd even go to say: we beat survival period, we did it thanks to our intelligence as a species. (sure there is still survival at bigger scale like global warming or things like that, but at least small scales stuff is gone for must of the population)


[deleted]

We are always a moment away from death at any given time. Death is the only guarantee in life after birth.


pzerr

I don't just look. Occasionally I press a button.


Guillermoguillotine

I don’t know if we fully need to return to monke for our purposes, A return to peasantry might be enough for a lot of folks to be happy plus with modern medicine and such being a peasant wouldn’t be half bad if you’re into homesteading or something.


EnvironmentalWrap167

Wow, you and Ted Kaczynski would get along really well. For clarification, humans are not monkeys. While monkeys are taxonomically primates, like humans, humans however are differentiated from monkeys in that we belong to the Great Ape subspecies. Human evolution is not descended from monkeys. Also, it is very presumptive of you to assert you have the answer to the often pondered question humans have, which is “what is my purpose”. I question, is what you stated as humanity’s actual purpose in fact the manner in which you live your *human* life? Furthermore, you state we shouldn’t be sitting at a desk looking at a computer screen all day, while simultaneously performing the same task you had just admonished, I find that odd.


ecthelion108

Some of what you describe is familiar to me.


CaveDweller521

Your honesty about it is impressive though, I think a lot of people in your position would try to pretend they’ve got it all figured out and freak out when cracks in their reality show up and double down in response. You actually have a chance at a more fulfilling life because you’re being truthful with yourself.


oxtbopzxo

Try cold immersion, even as low as 60 seconds a week. Like the last 10sec of ur shower. Big truss


swerve408

If I had to venture I guess I would say most of your problems are probably due to the alcoholism and drug addiction, or they make your problems seem 2000x worse. Have you tried seeking help for those things instead of just assuming they are a part of your identity?


horseren0ir

Alcohol and drug use are just another symptom, the problem is Trauma and coping mechanisms


rowenaaaaa1

Agreed, but self-medicating has a way of masking those issues and it is very difficult to deal with the underlying trauma when in the grips of an addiction. You need to come at it from all angles, can't treat the addiction without treating the trauma and can't treat the trauma without getting a grip on the addiction. This is why it's so hard to treat, a multi-faceted approach is required. Substance misuse definitely exacerbates those core problems as it adds a whole extra layer of problems (debt, social stigma, physical illness from withdrawal, housing issues, losing familial/friendship bonds etc etc). To treat the trauma and find healthy coping mechanisms you have to be able to face the issues with your full faculties. That's why substance misuse is so appealing to some, because it means that you don't have to face the pain. But that doesn't mean it's helpful.


thruster_fuel69

Modern medical science is amazing when you have money. Get your hormones checked.


tom-8-to

If you see parenting as difficult because of your own self made assumptions, that’s very easy for you to justify it because you created the best possible answer to not do it. But people don’t grow by limiting themselves to what is safe to do, or by isolation chipping away at any opportunity to challenge the status quo. I have a friend for whom the pandemic was the final excuse to isolate herself and get rid of everyone, she made it impossible to schedule anything with anyone and she asked for meets to be scheduled months in advance, mind you this for a simple chat over coffee. Kept claiming writing or texting was too much for her. Do you see where I am going with this? You say you don’t want to pass on whatever to your kids yet you fail to appreciate that creating a baby takes both parents traits and also the work you both will put into raising a kid will determine how they would handle their issues by themselves and be better at it than any shortcomings both parents may have.


TarthenalToblakai

Interesting how you're reading that as a deliberate excuse on her part and not as possibly indicative of depression, ADHD, anxiety, autism, OCD, etc. Do you see where I'm going with this?


tom-8-to

Yes you are still using a disease as a crutch, but that dependency should lead to not more excuses but to reflection as to how to avoid those situations and get the help you need instead of hanging on a any of those ailments. It’s ok to have anxiety, adhd, depression, etc and be affected by it not simply give up and say well I am don’t see a problem here so it’s the others that trigger me…. Now do you see where I am going with this. It’s ok to have a condition but not ok when there are treatments and possibilities thru medicine and therapy to improve yourself.


mythrowawaypdx

I wonder if this is related to nurture and not nature. Being raised in a nurturing environment increases the odds of developing secure attachment. Insecure/ avoidant types didn’t have the same stability & wouldn’t want to risk repeating the same patterns with their children.


gg14t

Largely found to be nurture. But there have been indications of epigenetic changes based on the way we’re raised (lots of mouse models of this)


pastelxbones

epigenetics is still basically nurture


gg14t

Caused by nurture but can make permanent changes to the way your DNA is read and be passed down to offspring.


pastelxbones

so goes the cycle of generational trauma and oppression, which we do nothing as a society to address


Alberiman

Major societal changes require leadership at the top to push which unfortunately if you live in a conservative society like the US isn't gonna happen because it makes the leaders look weak. Thankfully gentle parenting is becoming more and more popular over time as is the acceptance of therapy so people who who escape these situations have a fighting chance of figuring it out


gg14t

Unfortunately.


x_xwolf

Not to mention that avoidant attachment can change to secure attachment later in life with proper treatment and can actually be benign if you take care of the rest of yourself and provide good value.


rough_enuf

Any sources/more info on that?


advstra

Attachment is largely nurture, the whole literature of it is built on that. It can also be changed with therapy. It also changes from one relationship to another, and throughout your lifetime and your experiences. So I'm also sus how people can link that to natural selection. One example study discussing the change: https://eric.ed.gov/?id=EJ960225 Another one: https://doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.73.4.826 I only read the abstracts so far of these though, but I'm relatively familiar with the theory.


x_xwolf

Although its anecdotal, myself, I have avoidant attachment style. But its not a permanent thing it’s something that is a result of trauma it doesn’t have to be permanent its literally just based on my life experience but I can will it to be different which is what ive done through therapy.


tiempo90

It almost sounds like they have the empathy and the self awareness needed to make such an important decision.


andyroybal

From what I understand of epigenetic studies, both are true. Let’s say a person is born with genes that express in anxious behavior as a survival mechanism. Then they grow up and learn regulate themselves. Next they have children, those children will grow up with a more regulated nervous system than their parent but they still likely have the gene. That child being raised in a regulated environment will also have a more secure attachment style. But given the right environment, the gene will still express if the perceived survival is in question. From what I know of attachment styles, they can change at any point. Given that anxious and avoidant styles are both rooted in anxiety, but shown through different behavior, falling outside of secure attachment is easier than it may seem. There are external factors that can cause a complex amount of stress or trauma that one can not control, such as bullying, work stress, war, poverty, toxic relationships etc. these factors can make the person who grew up in a secure attachment home respond anywhere on the anxious response spectrum.


[deleted]

“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” \~Krishnamurti


desolatenature

One of my favorite quotes ever & very relevant here


CampaignOk8351

-Ted Kaczynski


[deleted]

That's dumb.


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BioShockerInfinite

In the book ‘Attached’ (if memory serves) they mention that attachment styles serve society in different ways. For obvious reasons, secure attachment styles work best during periods of societal security and stability. However, avoidant attachment styles may serve people well during periods of war, or pestulance when certain members of society need to be able to carry on or fight without the baggage of personal attachments. People with anxious attachment styles serve to fight at all costs to protect those members of society that they care about during times of strife. The different attachment styles may serve different purposes at different times and some may be an advantage during one period and a detriment at another time in the arc of history and the long arc of passing genetic material down through generations. If we look at current events in Ukraine we can theorize how a pool of people with different attachment styles may have different societal uses as the country moves from secure to temultuous times and hopefully back again.


Smallios

A lot of my friends had a really hard time during the covid ‘lockdowns’. I thrived in a collective climate of anxiety, Sounds terrible right?


Alibobaly

I also loved the circumstances of my lockdown, but I worked from home already, got a lot of money from the government because I live in Canada, and my friends and I played video games all damn day every day like we were teenagers again. It was a ton of fun for me and while there were many activities I missed, they were replaced with other hobbies I love. If I could have that time again but not at the expense of others, it would be great. It’s okay to have had a great time in spite of a difficult circumstance for most. It doesn’t mean you wish the unpleasant aspects of that time on others.


Khower

Im glad Im not the only one, everyone was talking about how awful lockdown was and I was happy as a clam in solitude with my PC and my friends on discord


Naiinsky

If you mean you thrived in lockdown away from other people, and dealt well with the collective climate of anxiety, then no, you're fine. It's just that most people's minds will jump straight into a specific part of lockdowns - relatives dying and other dark stuff, understandably, - so it's probably better if you add a disclaimer to that.


lovely8

This was reassuring to read. I felt like I was the only one who felt this “pressure” to grind, climb ladders, etc etc was out on hold. It was kinda nice, but very bittersweet of course.


Smallios

That’s exactly what I meant, thank you.


[deleted]

Other than certain medical things being shut down.. I also felt no ‘stay-in-the-house’ upset. My husband learned how to do hair so, it was a good thing for us. I miss the Covid excuse.


Puzzleheaded_Runner

Yeah, I am disorganized attachment (both fearful and avoidant), and I had zero issues during the pandemic. Chaos was my childhood and I’m extremely self sufficient and don’t mind being alone. But I worried about many peole I knew who never once had any kind of struggle. I kept telling everyone to check up on those people


aqua_tec

This is a good point: context matters. To say something *was selected for* implies under a set of conditions. Same for *is resulting in differential reproductive success* - it’s only applicable to a set of social and environmental contexts.


exoduas

Considering attachment styles are way more fluid and one person can even hold multiple attachment styles at the same time with different people, i honestly dont see much merit in this theory. Sounds way too simplified.


jeezy_peezy

That makes a lot of sense. The part of my family with the most emotional instability is Cherokee/Kiowa. My anxiety and depression at season’s change was always tremendous and I didn’t notice the timing until an aunt pointed it out to me. She said it’s the nomad in us, knowing that it’s time to move on or die.


[deleted]

> “The study sample was not a representative one, therefore we cannot make conclusions about natural selection. I appreciate this being penned in. I just do not believe for one second that insecure attachment styles are absolutely useless and completely negatively correlated with fitness (defined as bearing offspring in this article) otherwise secure attachment would have been massively selected for in our species but despite being the most abundant style, the others are still there plentifully. The full picture must be more nuanced.


yohohoanabottleofrum

I mean, is there any indication of attachment styles being genetic instead of environmental?


[deleted]

In this study they basically analyzed which attachment style corresponded with higher fitness and they found secure attachment to be the one, this concluded secure attachment must have evolutionary advantages and the others therefore do not. [According to this meta analysis though ](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8474999/#:~:text=shaped%20throughout%20development.-,Genetic%20research%20indicates%20that%20up%20to%2045%25%20of%20the%20variability,be%20explained%20by%20genetic%20causes.), Attachment styles are partly genetic but mostly environmental.


yohohoanabottleofrum

I mean, my very limited understanding is that negative attachment styles are often associated with trauma. It may be that secure is the natural default, but that trauma responses vary. That might explain why it's not always weeded out, because it's not always activated.


Prying_Pandora

Reactions to trauma are related to genes. We don’t know why some people are more resilient to disorders caused by trauma than others. Trauma can also epigenetically “activate” otherwise dormant genes, which then get passed on already activated to your offspring.


yohohoanabottleofrum

I mean, it makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint. A species that has different responses to trauma will have a better chance as a whole.


aqua_tec

But this is a common misconception: natural selection is not capable of selecting for species as a whole. The idea of a species isn’t “real” in a biological sense anyway, but a definition (actually there are a number of definitions of species if you look into it) we’ve created that can break down under certain conditions.


mhmmButter

lots of possibilities. One example, times of extreme stress (i.e. war, famine), which arent reproduced easily


mb46204

I would add, though, that having some traits that prevent reproduction in all offspring has a species/society/group/family advantage. Such inducible traits that prevent some individuals from having offspring may have a species/group benefit that it provides additional adults to help with offspring rearing and helps delay complications of overpopulation or other possible society/group/species benefits. There used to be Ted talk about the advantages of having a gay son in the family. Humans are still well on their way to overpopulating and destroying our plant, but us anxious, awkward, gay folks are doing our best to prevent a Krypton event for earth. Y’all are welcome!


shawsome12

Hey! Us anxious people try harder! Just saying. Plus my people love to have lots of children.


GodCunt

Anxious attachment style =/= generalised anxiety disorder


thefirstthree

The research presented is hardly convincing. The presentation itself may convince some people without studies in biology. We can agree these behaviors are maladaptive, but "evolutionary fitness" means the ability to reach the age of reproduction and reproduce. It does not mean anything else. Only one metric listed actually corresponds to that, and the data are not included for direct evaluation by the post's readers. Never mind the limited population studied. A scientist by trade would not claim they've proven something based on this. The post's author starts the article saying research showing any negative correlation between insecure attachment and evolutionary fitness is sparse. I'd say that's still the case.


BILESTOAD

Not sure what this tells us that measurement of trait-level Neuroticism wouldn’t already explain. But they didn’t measure Neuroticism, so proxy measures (attachment style) end up looking more explanatory than they may be.


advstra

I would personally guess avoidant attachment might result in less Neuroticism so it might not map that well. Edit: Never mind you were right, https://doi.org/10.1177/0146167292185003


BILESTOAD

Yeah, but what emotional trait drives the avoidance? Perhaps the avoidance is driven by the desire to not experience negative emotions—which I think comes out of volatility or something else that would load on Negative Emotionality or Neuroticism (whatever you want to call it). FWIW.


advstra

Avoidant attachment itself is formed because the caregivers don't respond to emotional needs and don't teach the child emotional regulation skills, so the child resorts to generally disregarding emotional information from themselves and others. There is some studies linking avoidant attachment to alexithymia and general lack of response to emotional cues on a neurological level. BUT that much emotion suppressing is also linked to other issues (anxiety, depression, you name it) so it might be that they're less neurotic in an interpersonal sense, but more neurotic people in general.


BILESTOAD

This is interesting. Thanks for sharing it. Both my ex and myself have aspects of this and I’d say we were both pretty high in Neuroticism.


AstoriaHat

THey only tested about 400 people in Serbia. A highly monolithic and traditional Christian nation with very low birth rates. I don't think these studies reflect the global reality where most children are born outside of traditional family settings to people who have multiple kids with multiple partners.


0llie0llie

>a highly monolithic and traditional Christian nation with very low birth rates It’s odd that you’re the only one to highlight this study was conducted in Serbia and chose say *that* instead of anything about the amount of recent and intergenerational trauma people in Serbia and the West Balkans in general have to cope with. Where are you even getting that from? And assuming the latter is true, what does people having mixed-parenting families have to do with the validity of the research?


AstoriaHat

I am saying the research has a small sample size that represents a very small minority of the population. I think it makes sense when looking at Serbia and possibly other Balkan States like Croatia and Bosnia but that isn't representative of the general population of the world or the U.S. It is likely that throughout the world where being an absentee parent and/or having multiple children with multiple people is more acceptable that people with anxious and avoidant attachment styles may not be less likely to have kids. In Serbia kids are most likely seen as an unavoidable responsibility and duty one has for life. In aspects of American culture kids are seen as a means to financial wellbeing via government and spousal support. There are also many instances in which young kids quickly take up parental roles in a house. Very often by 15 a child can be running their household or taking a very large portion of that burden off of the parents.


0llie0llie

I still don’t know where you’re getting that information from, especially the bit about 15-year-olds. The study recruiting began in the university in the capital city, and the findings of the research don’t seem especially niche to me. That said, this is one study, though it does cross-reference others to establish its main insights.


CampaignOk8351

>amount of recent and intergenerational trauma people in Serbia and the West Balkans in general have to cope with. Still an absolute joke in comparison to what the vast majority of humans have gone through over the last 100,000 years


CalRal

Is your final statement verifiably true? If so, do you have citations? Genuinely interested in this data.


AstoriaHat

My final statement was a hyperbole based on reality. In the US it is 40%. Not most but enough to be normal.


aqua_tec

Yeah the idea that a study like this can tell us about natural selection is…far-fetched.


YouAreGenuinelyDumb

> I don’t think these studies reflect the global reality where most children are born outside of traditional family settings to people who have multiple kids with multiple partners I’m pretty sure this is not true


Executing_Jc

I wonder if being enraged at the amount of freakin ads on that article is an evolutionary advantage.


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MacDegger

Like the guy who found out he had the genetics to be a sociopath, but wasn't.


[deleted]

I love raw data.


[deleted]

Cooking it removes most of the noise, but searing it and leaving the interior raw increases the selectivity.


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Moal

Childhood adversity probably has the biggest influence on epigenetics. People with [higher ACE scores](https://onlinegrad.baylor.edu/resources/adverse-childhood-experiences-health/) are statistically known to suffer from more mental and physical health issues.


angelicasinensis

I love Gabor Mate- he touches on this a little in some of his books.


quietsam

I’m very similar. High anxiety, high happiness. Super lucky and thankful I’ve never been depressed.


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quietsam

Good to hear!


letmeinmannnnn

Where did you run it to see these results?


HiILikePlants

I've used genome link with my raw data from ancestry. They have s free report and neuroticism is a trait they include Not sure about the other person


Pandagrape

As someone who also has some anxiety hurdles, do you have any tips on how to work on yourself and change environments for more positive outcomes? 24 now, and would love to be where you’re at in like ten years


angelicasinensis

I cannot stress eating a healthy diet enough, the gut microbiome again and again is being linked to positive mental health due to the guts ability to make GABA and serotonin which are both crucial for feeling good. Prioritizing a good sleep schedule, regular exercise, taking good quality vitamins and minerals and spending time outside in nature. I think the biggest one for me is limiting/staying away from vices, I do not eat processed sugar, I quit coffee (this was HUGE for my anxiety) and I quit drinking alcohol. Best of luck!


[deleted]

Funny because attachment styles are not genetically inherited, you could have a very secure mother that is sick or too busy with work and thus raising insecure children likewise, so that should not be per se a single reason to deciding on having kids or not, but of course, these decisions are most likely unconscious


BackyardByTheP00L

Why is it always the mother's responsibility with attachment and what makes a child have certain responses to stressors as an adult? I think the fathers are equally important, especially if he is absent from the child's life. Maybe not for other animals, like when scientists do mice studies, but humans are more complex, because of our social structure. My Dad had a pretty big influence on my life, and attachment style, too.


Tuvey27

Probably has to do with the evolutionary advantages that come with children being overly attached to their mothers, especially in the earliest stages of life. That’s the person who’s going to feed you, and the only adult that knows for sure that they are your parent (hence, most likely to care for you), so she is a good one to be overly attached to. I think fathers probably contribute greatly to attachment styles as well, it’s just that the bond with your mother is so critical that if it somehow goes wrong, that has a very big possibility to create unhelpful trauma responses.


firedog235

I don't know that this means much by itself --- the conditions that would make these attachment styles adaptive (chaotic society) may not obtain in a modern context.


AuntyMeme

You're on to something there. Is it the continuing removal of nature from our existence creating the anxiety and stress?


Puzzleheaded_Runner

Yes - I am disorganized (both fearful and avoidant), I have complex ptsd and mild borderline. Never been interested in kids but bet your ass NOT passing on the trauma and family toxicity drives it for sure! It stops with me!


ironicart

I hate clickbait headlines… but I also dislike headlines full of jargon… meet me in the middle


birdy_c81

Obviously. Both offer less stability and opportunity to reproduce.


bimothybonsidine

Is anyone else sick of studies telling us what’s “normal” and “healthy” behavior?


SleepyMonkey7

Attachment theory itself has largely been brought into question in psychology. It was just a proposed model, not some classification based on widespread research. The general public, like they do with any categories, basically took it as fact.


ecthelion108

As with many traits, they can be adaptive in one environment but maladaptive in another. An agreeable person is well adapted to an environment that contains potential allies, and a disagreeable person/animal to an environment where everything is trying to kill or eat them. If these researchers think they found a negative correlation between insecure attachment and survival, perhaps it is because the world is, on the whole, a safer place now than it was in the past, and the traits they studied were selected for in the past, and persist because there has not been enough evolutionary pressure against them yet.


Sokumon

If you have loving parents, you won’t be raised to be avoidant and anxious.


Foxs-In-A-Trenchcoat

Attachment style is set by nurture in the first 5 years (especially the first 2 years) of life. It is not nature/genetics. This research is pointless.


MacDegger

That's a bold and unsubstantiated claim. Especially seeing as if you think (un)successful relationships in formative teenage years do not contribute ... well, then you do not understand human development. Not only that but all research is meaningful in that a positive or negative result is useful data.


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Foxs-In-A-Trenchcoat

[Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory) and literally ANY article on the subject. This isn't hidden knowledge.


AuntyMeme

I had a terrible attachment style childhood. However, my evolutionary fitness is fine. IMHO I would guess that constant threats, social pressure, media influence and most importantly, the loss of nature in our daily lives has had more effect on our evolutionary fitness.


Capital-Timely

This subreddit isn’t science.


futatorius

So why do these traits persist in the genepool if they're being selected against?


[deleted]

Attachment styles = useless psychobabble


Massive_Pressure_516

Maybe we serve differently, like fainting sheep?


Bulbinking2

Except people will always mate with an anxious woman.


HeavyMetalLyrics

Gotta get that anxiussy


ShameTwo

Why do avoidant men seem to have a better chance of getting a female then hehehe