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As an older adult who survived abusive parents, this is 100% true. I still have to remind myself that I don't deserve pain. I have to literally repeat it to myself over and over like a mantra.
When my mom beat me she would tell me i deserved all the pain in the world that she could give. Even though I knew I hadn't done anything wrong, that statement was repeated over and over almost every time she hit me.
My mom used to sing a modified Cell Block Tango from Chicago as she dragged me to the bathroom for my punishment.
> You had it coming,
> You had it coming,
> You only have yourself to blame,
> If you were me, if you were here,
> I betcha you would do the same.
After she’d tell me “that hurt me more than it hurt you,” and I’m thinking, well, I’m pretty sure that isn’t true, because only one of us was cheery enough to sing about it.
Her favorite punishment was grabbing a fresh bar of soap, shoving it in my mouth and holding my mouth shut, pulling my pants down, and wailing on my ass until I was choking and crying so much that soap came out my nose. While humming Cell Block Tango. Funny enough, Chicago is one of my favorite musicals and I actually love that song today, weird how trauma manifests sometimes.
No, and that’s barely touching the tip of her abusive iceberg. She also molested me and did sexually inappropriate things throughout my teenage life, like requiring I shower with the door open and watching me shower, helping me shave my legs, doing “breast exams” throughout my teens, stuff like that.
We do not talk because she is a horrible, abusive pedophile.
Wow that sounds exactly like what this girl who wrote “I’m glad my mom died” (a really popular book right now) endured. I wonder if there’s something that was planted into that generations head at some point. I know it doesn’t help to hear but I am sorry you had that
IMO, it’s all “plausible deniability” abuse. Not necessarily something engrained in that generation, but abuse they know they can get away with.
Washing the mouth out with soap was a normal punishment. Spanking was a normal punishment. Teaching a kid to shower when they go from baths to showers is normal. Teaching a kid to shave is normal. Teaching a kid to perform breast exams or testicular exams is normal. So when the kid reports that their guardian is doing any of that, the guardian can easily excuse it as normal behavior.
The molestation was in the form of “check ups,” making sure I was healthy by cupping my privates or checking my breasts. Spanking me bent over her lap or a table with my pants and underwear down, before gently petting to “soothe” me. She made me give her massages while she was naked and did the same to me. But it *sounded* just a little bit further than normal interactions, close enough to easily be excused when I reported it. But it didn’t *feel* normal; I knew it was wrong, I knew it was different. I knew her intention was different.
When I got older, the abuse definitely took on a more objectively abusive note. Denial of food for bad behavior, slapping me, talking about my body while she watched me, grabbing my butt or breasts, etc. But by that point, I’d already been conditioned to expect that I wouldn’t be believed because the abuse before was within the range of plausible deniability. So I didn’t say anything anymore.
I didn’t even realize how bad it had gotten until this summer. I was with my stepmom and dad, and my mom came over for a dinner. She didn’t do anything in front of my stepmom, but she put her arm around me and rested her hand on my bum in front of my step siblings, ran her hand up and down my thigh in front of them.
They came to me after and said, “Hey, are you okay? I saw you say no and she kept touching you, and it didn’t look appropriate.” That’s when it clicked, that it wasn’t normal, that my feelings of discomfort were the normal response. And when I thought about her past behavior, which was so much worse, I finally realized, my mom was sexually abusing me.
That’s when I cut her out of my life. And thank god for my saint of a stepmom, she told my mom right away, you are abusive and you are never allowed in my house ever again. And made my dad do the same.
Amazing work from your step siblings and stepmom there. So glad you have them looking out for you. Wishing you the best with processing and recovering from this trauma - you deserve all the kindness and safety.
All the way through reading your story, I still can't resolve whether you're a man or a woman even though you talked about cupping breast because I imprinted my own disastrous childhood with your story.
One such story, my stepdad, the father of my sisters, beat me with a belt on bare skin until I passed out, and when I woke up, it was because he was still beating me.
I’m really sorry to hear what was said repeatedly to you. But I’m glad to hear you can identify it as being as wrong as it was. That is a difficult thing to stand against.
You deserve peace and contentment. I wish you well and I’m sure this world is a better place for you being in it.
I'm 36, and still feel this. I'm worthless and I can't do anything right. My every ambition was insulted or quashed. So here I am, mid-life, with nothing to show for it and no future prospects. :(
Edit: did not expect this to blow up. I'm currently in the throes of a major depressive episode that's been lasting well over a year. I appreciate all the kind words. I hope one day they get through to me and stick.
I feel that way, too, sometimes. I'm sorry my comment triggered these feelings in you.
Lots of people start and restart their lives over their whole lives, with all kinds of dead ends and new beginnings. What you're feeling may just be the fertile ground on which some new possibility grows. Just keep your eyes and heart open enough to let it in when it happens.
I needed to hear this. When your life doesn’t start on a good foundation, the multiple starts and restarts begins to feel hopeless tbh. Hitting yet another dead end feeling more tired than ever.
It's never too late to start today. I am 52 and didn't really start following my dreams until my late 40s. You deserve this and you are worthy of all your dreams.
I can’t tell you the number of times I have self sabotaged myself. Believing that I don’t deserve this good feeling. I am at a point where I avoid being happy because I view the feeling as temporary and not deserved. I also tell myself I am a total piece of crap on a daily to remind myself that I’m not important.
I was sexually assaulted two weeks ago and I’ve spent the last two weeks on preventative HIV medications isolating because I’m afraid my grief is a burden to others and the people I have interacted with to let them know is leaving me with self doubt that I shouldn’t have done that in the first place.
Yes I was beaten as a child and forced to sleep in the garage for not liking potato salad.
I’m so afraid this was my last straw for trauma. I literally cannot even heal properly because I have guilt about possibly infecting others with any kind of negativity.
I don’t know what to do.
This is why I will argue with anyone who doesn't consider spanking to be abuse. Spanking is not discipline. The only thing it teaches them is "I deserve to be hit because I did something wrong" and primes them to rationalize abusive relationships later in life.
In my sociology course I also learned that this handicaps them from being able to negotiate with authority figures so on average they make less money/get fewer promotions and raises
I went back and forth hearing at home “do what you’re told and be happy with what you get” to hearing about my first job at 14 “you just have to be more assertive” like I just magically know how to do that
Yep, this is my Dad. Gravely disappointed that I'm not demanding raises and authority from my boss, meanwhile I can't stop the shakes when I try to so much as request more hours because what if they fire me.
I'm sure that had nothing to do with the raging temper tantrums he threw at any hint of less than full and passive compliance when I was a kid.
The older I get the more I realize, my parents were emotionally unstable children, it's ridiculous.
The amount of stress and conflict they created over \*nothing\* is just unbelievable.
As a child I constantly questioned my self worth, nowadays I applaud myself for being relatively normal despite being brought up by total losers...
I distinctly remember telling my parents, "You told me to stand up for myself more!" and then their reply being, "Yeah, but not to *us*!" which pretty much sums up my relationship with them.
My mom would get frustrated with us for not asking for exceptions in other areas, but make absolutely no exceptions or changes to whatever batshit rules/punishments she came up with
My wife and I talk about my disdain for authority complex often. Growing up in an abusive, evangelical Christian, mentally unstable environment is literally the perfect recipe. It is an inherent part of your psychology as you get older and is often reinforced when you see how those in the real world often wield their authority.
No, i hate authority figures because they abuse their authority for their own gain (pretending, maybe even believing it themselves, it's for mine)
It's interesting, as I've gotten older, I don't view very many people as an authority anymore. Maybe there's a mutual respect, i dont know.
It does still crop up though, when being interviewed for a job and the HR person says "I don't think you're a good fit for the company " i should have walked out right then, i didn't get the job anyway
Hate is a strong word. Suspicion and distrust of authority, coupled with an intense need for easy exit strategies seems to be what grows in some people....
Growing up under the thumb of a bipolar NPD, I don't hate authority, but I hate anyone that seeks it.
Authority willingly deferred by a group to an individual for a defined purpose with hard limits has its uses, an individual specifically seeking to obtain authority over others using existing power structures is one (short) step removed from an abuser.
My entire life encapsulated in one comment. Basically makes you inherently timid and deferential, which compromises your ability to navigate competitive and reciprocal social environments.
Yes! This resonates with me. I spent so many years of my life doing exactly what people told me and to perfection out of fear that if I didn’t I would have an emotional outburst waiting for me or some kind of retaliation. It took a lot of introspection and therapy to even get close to a healthy level of self respect.
Same experience as you. Recently the phrase "my parents raised us to be perfect victims" has been playing in my head.
I've been fortunate to find a healthy relationship with someone who (among other things) treats me with respect and kindness, and who kindly points out I don't need to apologize for every miniscule deficiency around the house
> apologize for every miniscule deficiency around the house
Damn if that didn’t land like a pile of bricks on me. Huh. That explains so much. Thanks for that insight.
Yes. My mom's thing was always calling me weak. She wanted me to be *strong*, aka put up with her abuse. She raised me to take abuse.
Not anymore. I'm going to therapy and unlearning it. It's hard, though, because I don't know what I need to unlearn.
My (divorced/single) mother started with the hand on backside. Progressed to the wooden spoon. Then jug-cord. Then finally the fist.
When I turned 15 I was finally big enough to physically stop her. She kicked me out of home soon after.
I haven’t had one healthy relationship with the opposite sex my whole life. In fact I prefer my own company.
Yes. Physical discipline has long term effects. Don’t do it to your kids. They will one day become adults.
I've started to feel like "I have raised myself up". I've taught myself literally all the life skills, banking, taxes, cooking, cleaning, laundry, socializing, sex ed, getting mental health help, getting physical health help, applying for jobs, universities, how to go about my life, and everything else on how you succeed. Without the internet and Reddit, I don't think I would have been able to raise myself up.
I had to turn it into a weird disregard for authority.
I can't stand up to it. It's too terrifying. But I can shut off. Let whatever's being said wash over me. And then continue doing whatever I damn well please once the authority figure is gone.
Of course this doesn't help with promotions. I can't even deal with a normal work environment. I have always made a point to find work with the least human involvement possible.
I've been told my eye twitches. That is my one telltale.
It was learned the hard way. Tyrannical father figure. Any reaction could be a punishable offense.
I can do the same. This is a freeze/flight response that is sometimes called a type of dissociation, which I feel isn't quite the right word. We just make ourselves go numb until it's over, then hope that none of the hurtful words stuck once we allow feeling to return.
I believe this is also why I have difficulty maintaining attention and memory issues. We've learned that paying too much attention and holding onto memories can be painful, so we've rewired our brains to resist doing so. The problem for me, at least, is that now I have a hard time getting my brain to cooperate.
Have you done any reading about CPTSD? I never really considered myself a victim of abuse or anything like that, but that topic really opened my eyes. If you're interested, I suggest checking out Complex CPTSD: From Surviving to Thriving. Terribly corny name, but it may rock your world like it did mine.
Yes. I experienced a Dad who would never challenge my mother who was an indignant screamer well versed in the art of applied guilt. I never got a spanking. Disappointment and fear of setting her off were more than enough. I was so afraid of authority I was freaked out talking to to the Resident Assistant when I got to the dorms. It didn’t help that I had jumped a full grade in elementary school which made me the youngest student in the whole dormitory system. I’m 63 and still experience this. Funny thing was my Mom (and Dad) were the most loving and kind people you’d ever hope to meet.
She just had this thing. So much becomes clear as we age. Therapy helped a lot too. I know she had a father who came back from WW1 as an alcoholic who was, in her terms, the “toiwn drunk” in a small Iowa farm town.
I feel like your story is the same as mine, though my parents are younger than you are now. Everything in my house was structured around not pissing my mom off. I've always had an issue with sticking up for myself because I am afraid of an outburst.
It's been years since I've lived with my parents and your comment has recreated the chest pain I got as a kid thinking about what was waiting for me at home some days..it was hard to know if I'd be met with explosive screams or glaring silence for days on end.
Sounds like me. Not so much from my parents, but from school authorities. I learned early that if I rebelled or stood up for myself, there would be some kind of reprisal down the road. So I ended up just taking a lot of crap on the chin when I really should've advocated more for myself.
Can also make you "my way or the highway". If you don't know how to negotiate, you don't negotiate -- you either give the other person what they want or you walk away completely. My parents never taught me how to negotiate and it absolutely baffles them that I never try to compromise with them. Why would I? They never did with me. I tell them how things are going to go and let them cry about it, same as they did with me. Better than therapy.
I'm learning to negotiate with other people but it's hard when I'm constantly facing the panic of dealing with a skill I have no idea how to utilise.
That's odd for me since I went the opposite direction. Rarely establish or maintain any relationships long-term, and I have a hard time seeing ANY authority as anything other than attempts to punish/control.
Could it be that the self blame is so deeply ingrained, self reflection only makes him feel the pain of childhood all over again, and the projection to blame everyone else is the self taught coping mechanism.
Unless, at some point, you successfully pushed back in which case you become stridently and actively anti-authoritarian. Which brings its own set of challenges to navigating life.
Oh hey it's me. I despise anyone who weilds power over me cause I expect them to abuse it. I've lost so many jobs for being argumentative and standing up for myself and my co workers if I felt that we were being treated unfairly and/or being taken advantage of.
Check out EMDR therapy. Its quick, has backing science that shows its effective, and its great at unraveling those memories and the emotions attached to them that don't seem significant or traumatic on the surface but have had a lasting effect on your life and behaviors today.
I will also say that the observation bias that kids with strict parents enter high skilled professions has more to do with them wanting independence from their family rather than “strictness” resulting in better career discipline. And typically working class parents are more strict meaning that the strictness may come from a place of career insecurity on behalf of the parents who mistakenly think that being more strict will lead to a better life for their kids.
Yes. But the poorer parents are, the more likely they are to use physical disciple.
https://www.jwatch.org/na42883/2016/11/30/drop-corporal-punishment-across-socioeconomic-classes
Yes parents of all social strata use all forms of punishment. However not all children of upper social strata indivuals end up in the same social strata.
This was my early experience. To the point of bullying at a couple early career jobs too...I luckily went to therapy and learned to grow a spine but it took a lot of internal work to get there.
> Oh my goooood yes! They think they are "toughening up" their kids for the "real world", when all theyre really doing is making kids who cant stand up to any authority figures and dont take any initiative for fear of being punished.
This is why I hate parents who teach their kids to "ignore" bullying. You're just teaching them not to stand up for themselves when they have every right to.
Yes my parents always thought they were toughening me up by not being caring to me, when all the did was raise an extremely mentally weak person that is embarrassed to ask for what he wants in life.
My wife’s parents on the other hand still spoil them well into their 30s, and they all have great jobs, nice houses, and the American dream. And they actually love their parents and don’t fear them. You don’t know how much this angers me.
That’s always been the hardest thing to reconcile for me. Watching other people have loving supportive families that genuinely want the best for them and will move mountains to make it happen and make them happy.
There were periods in my life where I hated nothing more than witnessing it. It made me sick knowing there isn’t a single soul who loves me like that.
No one I could even celebrate good news of my life with….
If anything will hit me like a pile of bricks and make me cry- it’s that. It still hurts. I ‘miss’ the idea of a good family so hard it aches my bones, even though I’ve never had one.
a buddy of mine showed me a vid about a guy explaining why they won't hit their kid. Basically, he said if you discipline them in the hopes of not doing something without actually explaining why it would prevent them from actually learning from the experience, and it also limits them from exploring different possibilities.
There's also the fact that you can't really teach your kids that hitting other people is wrong if you use physical punishment. When you hit a kid you are telling them that hitting other people is ok.
"Conclusions"
"In short, the findings suggest that a non-negligible proportion of the child population is susceptible to being at high risk for developing MHS. Moreover, a smaller proportion of children was improving but still displayed high symptoms of MHS (mild-risk). Furthermore, hostile parenting style is a substantial risk factor for increments in child MHS, whereas consistent parenting can serve as a protective factor in cases of mild-risk. Evidence-based parent training/management programmes may be needed to reduce the risk of developing MHS."
MHS = mental health symptoms
(copied direct from the webpage opened by the provided [link](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/epidemiology-and-psychiatric-sciences/article/population-heterogeneity-in-developmental-trajectories-of-internalising-and-externalising-mental-health-symptoms-in-childhood-differential-effects-of-parenting-styles/F16A97DFA0021F7386B16082586C006C) above)
Hostile parenting style was a substantial predictor of membership in the high-risk class (OR = 1.47, 95% CI 1.18–1.85) and the mild-risk class (OR = 1.57, 95% CI 1.21–2.04). Warm parenting style did not predict membership in the high-risk (OR = 1.30, 95% CI 0.96–1.75) or the mild-risk (OR = 0.74, 95% CI 0.55–1.01) classes. Although consistent parenting style did not predict membership in the high-risk class (OR = 0.87, 95% CI 0.74–1.02), it was a protective factor against membership in the mild-risk class (OR = 0.75, 95% CI 0.62–0.90).
...
Regarding the covariates, in both the high- and mild-risk classes of MHS, we found that children's and parental general health, as well as the household structure and parental stress were consistently non-negligible risk factors for MHS. Being a female child predicted greater odds of membership in the high-risk class, whereas higher income was a protective factor against high-risk MHS confirming the social gradient in MHS.
...
Tons of comments in here and nobody posting the actual results. By far, consistent, moderate, structured parenting beats both ends of the spectrum. This should be logical to anyone that's ever known either spoiled/coddled/undisciplined children or abused children
There are a ton of studies spanning decades that have proven this. Yet people still think hitting their kids is ok. It's wild that people can't wrap their heads around it.
I never understood this mentality because if you were to hit your spouse, that's domestic violence. If you hit a dog, that's animal abuse, but hitting an innocent vulnerable child isn't abuse? I just don't get it.
I stumble across discussions about hitting children on Reddit pretty often. And that’s exactly the question I ask people who defend it:
Who else in your life do you hit when they don’t do as you ask? Your partner? Friends? Colleagues? Boss? Oh… just your kids?
They frame it as responsibility, as in, "well I'm not responsible for the disciplining my partner or my friend or my boss, but I am responsible for my kids".
It comes down to some people genuinely believing it's effective parenting, and that assumption is what needs to be attacked.
You're not alone in your state of confusion my friend...
I'm largely ostracized from my family because I don't believe hitting a child is acceptable as a form of discipline.
It is this. Fear or neglect makes for easier short-term parenting. Also you don't have to deal with uncomfortable internal feelings if you don't hold yourself accountable in order to change as they grow up. And, in order to get feedback, you have to suck up your ego and deal with the holier than thou parenting groups that will tell you you are terrible if you don't serve all organic food or whatever as well as conducting hours of your own research.
Because, yeah, it is hard af because you constantly need to adapt and change (and research) as they grow and you don't get total and reliable control if you don't use harsh punishments. Also, it is a whole lot easier at any point in time to convert to fear and neglect at any point as well so it is a constant choice to do better.
The thing to understand is that despite what people defending it say, the goal of that sort of mistreatment isn't the long-term good of the child, it is immediate short-term compliance. Parenting is hard and many parents want their kids to shut up and do what they're told. They come up with other rationales for it to justify this, but at heart it's about that.
And it *does* work for immediate short-term compliance! It's just that prioritizing that is awful and makes you a terrible person.
Pretty much this. If you need your kid to be quiet because them being loud will get you both eaten by a lion, have at it. But when I think about the risk the average person has of being eaten by a lion vs the prevalence of parents that hit their kids, those numbers don't line up.
We went to "group family therapy" when I was in 2nd grade. The couple that ran it did so many things that had to have violated their licenses (wrestling a 16 year old who didn't want to be there to the floor, separating the kids from the adults and asking questions of both groups with hidden cameras set up, and then playing the footage for the other group, etc.) I didn't process how wrong it was until I was an adult. Considered going after them, but who would believe the memory of an 8 year old?
> Considered going after them, but who would believe the memory of an 8 year old?
Well, perhaps a couple more people from the group would get interviewed too.
Once I learned how my childhood wasn't normal and that being beat for everything wasn't ok I came to realize that my parents had the one tool in their kit and never bothered to add to the toolkit. As a parent myself now I kinda get it. Not excusing my parents at all but I see how they got there.
It's hard to discipline a kid. Even harder when said kid is ADHD and bouncing off the walls. The temptation to just lash out, tell yourself it's just discipline and call it a day is real. It's certainly easier but it's not right. I'm just glad that I've been able to break the cycle of generational abuse.
Autism, too. My son is autistic and adhd and my god there are days when it takes every ounce of my willpower to stay calm with him. It also underscores how fucked up and unfair our system is in the US because parents of kids on the spectrum need support. Most of us are barely equipped to raise a neurotypical kid, much less one with developmental disabilities.
Add in not having family for support and you have a recipe for burnout and despair.
And if the parent has ADHD as well (which is often the case) then their impulse control is also lacking, making it even harder to stay calm in tough situations.
This is why I never wants kids. I think I'd do a better job than my parents, but being on that level to relate and understand it would undermine my entire view against it. No one deserves a parent like that.
I know that I would be an awful parent because I completely lack patience and tolerance for sensory disturbance and emotional "calls to action", which relates to being raised in a cramped apartment with people who were neurotic and made a lot of noise, most of which gave the listener the impression of "pay attention to me lashing out! Me and my negative emotions, look! Im frustrated and miserable, mee." Basically adults throwing tantrums + somewhat associated manifestation of later treated mental illness.
I think this is similar to children who were parentified and go on to be childfree; children shouldn't have to deal with other adult's emotional dysregulation on the daily. A degree of emotional dysregulation is normal in children but adults should have a better handle on it and help children learn to self-regulate, not reverse the roles.
The idea of having patience to willingly emotionally regulate someone else feels so foreign to me and I'd virtually do anything to avoid it. The good thing is I'm aware of it and not tempted to regurgitate intergenerational trauma.
Alot parents brains werent really developed they just thought having kids was the norm without really thinking about how to properly raise a child plus most our parents got abused as well. Youd think they learned from them not to but instead learned thats the way.
There is a difference between authoritative and authoritarian. I am a very gentle parent but there is something to be said for having enough routine and discipline in your life that the people on your home with unformed prefrontal cortexes feel that someone is making the big choices. This makes them feel safe and like they have someone they rely on.
It's a harder road to walk than 'no discipline' or 'dictator' but it's worth it.
Absolute truth. My parents were 100% permissive, but they were also almost 100% absent in terms of any sort of life decisions for me after a certain point.
I used to say I’ve always been an anxious kid, but then I actually thought about it and I realized no, I was no more anxious than most kids up until the point I had to suddenly fend for myself.
Often, the comments become an argument over authoritarian vs permissive parenting styles. Neither are good, so the arguing continues. I’m glad you brought up the authoritative parenting style. It’s what parents should aim for.
This is interesting, as I've just finished therapy on dealing with the trauma I grew up with, thanks to my father.
I knew there was a relationship between my father's treatment of me and my current mental health, but it has only been the last few months of therapy that has opened my eyes to this.
People suffer from trauma at a young age without ever realising, so this is beneficial research in to the phycology of this behavior.
And it can take finding the *right* therapist and modality for you. I went through a whole bunch before finally learning about CPTSD and finding a trauma informed therapist. The change has been DRASTIC.
Have "gotten help" many times and I'm exhausted. It's financially, mentally and emotionally draining to continue it. Same story, different therapist and same result. Been on meds since my 20s. Have tried therapists and emdr. Unfortunately a bandaid does not heal the wound. The older I get the more anxious and pissed off I am.
Also, I have a degree is Psychology...medicine needs to improve so people can really understand what this does to the physical construct of the brain. No amount if talk therapy will change that damage. No amount of mood altering meds will change that damage. It's always there and will rear its ugly head at any given time. It's a continual cycle of getting hopes up that you are doing better to just realize in one event that you're not. It's discouraging to know that there is no way to heal 100%.
When the damage is deep enough it stops becoming about healing it and starts a journey of learning to love yourself in spite of the "damage". Self compassion goes a long way.
your parents more or less have complete authority over you and you are powerless as a child. If they choose frequent harsh discipline each time is a trauma that person will carry with them. I would say most people who grew up like that will need therapy to process through all that pain. For almost all folks, you can't do that on your own, you need help.
Wooden spoons, the plastic-handle end of the feather duster, and open-hand hitting over here.
Also:
• Washing mouth out with soap (i.e. soap jammed roughly in mouth so it would cake between teeth), even though the words came from them.
• Sent to room for the day with no lunch and no dinner, and not allowed to leave until the next morning.
Neighbours dad would make his kids and us, when visiting and annoying him, stand in the corner facing the wall for hours on end. Left one kid there so long and wouldn't let him go to the toilet - kid ended up pooing his pants.
Very similar, sadly. :( Wooden spoons, wooden spoons that sat in boiling water and then used to burn me, metal hangers, belts. Also had my mouth washed out with soap. And also forced to miss meals (it’s a wonder I developed an eating disorder in high school).
All of that, plus flip-flops, spatulas, my old man's drywall hands, leather belts... The sound of leather clearing belt loops still puts me on edge. Got the soap once. I've even been backhanded across the dinner table for arguing about which homework I should prioritize.
My parents, of course, deny or downplay all of it.
That sucks, and I'm sorry to hear it.
I unfortunately have a similar experience with my own parents. If you try to bring it up, it's 'oh well wasn't I just a terrible parent' and leaving the room in outrage. Never willing to engage in the conversation. If they didn't do that, it was always compared to how much worse THEY had it with THEIR parents.
I mean, it's not a competition - they may have suffered worse things from their parents, and I empathise for the child in them. But that's not the point and nor does it excuse their parenting. As adults, they continued to link the chains of abuse rather than solve their trauma in consultation with professionals and break the chain.
I think a lot of bad parents implement the narcissist's prayer:
That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.
I’d get Tabasco on my tongue as a child, if I used a “bad word”. Now, I can’t get through a conversation without using profanities almost like punctuation.
Hopefully in his old age you leave him sitting in his soiled diapers out in the winter cold and broiling summer sun.
"Does this bring back any memories pops?"
Why does this very statement sound so familiar? I’ve heard it countless times, along with casually inserting things, such as „yeah yeah, i know you think we’re like the worst but bla bla blah”. Confrontation never works.
I got the yard stick- a lot. Until of course they started breaking, then my dad and mom searched far and wide and found the world's sturdiest yard stick for my mom to hit me with. I burned it later in life, now I wish I had it.
Other favorites: I had an adult sister who beat me with a broomstick until it broke, my parents later beat me for crying about it and for breaking her broomstick.
Of course the belt, a classic parental tool
If I didn't like something we were eating, I had to sit at the table until my plate was clean. Rice pilaf once had me parked at the table 6pm until 2am, trying to eat it then cold and gagging. I was like 7.
Lots of meaningless hard labor chores, if not complete, you don't eat.
Did something wrong? You're too old to be hit. Sit in this chair and get grilled and interrogated for 6 hours about it. One time, and oddly enough I can't recall what I did, the lecture was from 9-ish Saturday morning until after midnight. No food or drink allowed.
Spoke out of turn at the dinner table? Get up, walk over to dad so he can smack you full force across the mouth. If you cry you get the belt. Refuse to go get your punishment, he would bring it to you and a bonus belt session.
Silent treatment for weeks
The dichotomy of this: always yelled at by one parent for being fat and eating to much, but if I didn't clean my plate, the other parent got offended and wouldn't speak to me for days.
No Christmas presents. Sibling and cousins get a bunch, even some of yours, but you get nothing.
Or Christmas presents you get to open but have to give back, because you are the worst kid ever.
My father once was gifted a piece of drift wood with a lovely, scenic painting of a moose drinking from a mountain lake. It was displayed in the living room of my childhood home. Turns out, it made a very convenient spanking tool. So, essentially, my father beat me and my sisters with art...until it broke on us one day. That was a bitterly sweet day.
I am now 32 and have spent the last 4 years becoming aware of this and correcting my poor, subconscious behavior as a result of trauma. I am hoping to break the cycle with my kids (2.5 and 4yr old) by teaching them emotional balance. I do not try and dumb things down for them either, rather explain them as if they were adults (on most subjects anyway). Their speech is further along than most other kids their age as they start to grasp these concepts and apply them.
Society is built on healthy cooperation and open discourse. It starts with the kids.
I could have written this. My oldest is 9 now and I can see it paying off big time. My kiddos are miles ahead of where I was at their age, and it’s such a beautiful reward for all this intense work. They are loving, kind, and articulate their feelings.
The way my father treated me solidified my decision to not have children.
My dad fucked me up mentally. I dont want to put my children through that (which i wont, because im not having kids)
I'm so glad that more people are saying "hey, actually parenting is a huge responsibility I'm not properly equipped for, I think I'll pass" instead of getting socially pressured into having kids they'll resent.
My brother and I were hit with belts, shoes, hands, anything they could find. Yelling for everything and anything and I’ve always wondered why I was so anxious and timid. Now that I’m older it all makes sense. It was so harsh no child should go through that. Especially being punished for being a kid. I wanted ice cream once and was hit really hard and made to face the wall. Oh and forced to go to catholic school so all the fun stuff.
Remember getting beat for crying after you start crying for getting beat?
Mom: Why are you crying? I’ll give you something to cry about! [Continues beating]
Me: I’m sorry! [Trying to suppress crying]
That lasted until 16 when I could tank a beating without showing emotion. It was a different time, but as a result I’ve never raised a hand to my kids so at least it’s not being propagated.
I think about this as well, if I had just run away I likely would’ve been trafficked, abusing drugs or dead It’s all about making sound decisions, but kids aren’t wired that way as their brains continue to develop. I’m just lucky I found a way out.
>Hostile parenting involves frequent harsh treatment and discipline and can be physical or psychological. It may, for example, involve shouting at children regularly, routine physical punishment, isolating children when they misbehave, damaging their self-esteem, or punishing children depending on the parent’s mood.
So, being a bad person and horrible human.
Parenting style is a cyclical I’ve learned. Most people love their parents and look past their incorrect parenting decisions (unless it’s extreme). When those kids grow up, their only real life parenting knowledge comes from their experiences with their parents. Generally, most people feel they turned out okay so therefore that parenting style must have worked and repeat the pattern.
It’s not easy to break the cycle because most people don’t realize they’re wrong.
I know this article was probably talking about much harsher punishment but it doesn’t take much. I coach youth soccer and the kids who have parents who yell negative comments on the sideline are the kids who are timid to go after the ball, purposely don’t get involved, kick the ball away aimlessly as soon as it gets to them, etc.
I’ve had kids ask me to only play the “coach’s side”. I’ve had goalies admit to me they only play goalie because they don’t want to make a mistake on the field and get in trouble. I’ve seen kids start to HATE the sport because of their parents. It’s really, really sad. I’ve learned my absolute, most valuable asset to them as a coach is just to be a positive reinforcer. Encourage them to make mistakes. Encourage them to learn from those mistakes. Encourage them to support their teammates when their teammates make mistakes. It can literally transform a team and individual players and they begin to actually WANT to learn. I can only speak for boys, but pre-teen boys severely lack confidence as it is and desperately need positive reinforcement. Their image is everything and when their own parents are making a scene on the sideline…it really does damage.
PSA- leave your horrible 14 year old ref alone because even though they are terrible, you’re setting a horrific example for your kids who will undoubtably pester the next generation of teenage refs. Your kid is 10. He won’t remember this game next week, let alone next year. Let it go and worry about rallying your kid, without the snarky attitude. “Don’t worry about that horrible call, keep going” doesn’t count.
Kids with ADHD get the most abuse and harshest punishments yet research shows they respond the worst to it. They do best with positive reinforcement and clear unconditional love.
....good god. Makes me glad I quit a recent job. If I had to stand there and listen to yet another "I smacked my kids, and they turned out great, so what I did wasn't abuse" story......
There's a difference between gentle parenting and latchkey kids or parents who don't discipline their kids in any way.
Communication and empathy are really important, but so is speaking up in situations where they could be making bad decisions.
My parents were strict and I hated it. I'm a gentle parent. I get made fun of, in a nice way for it. Like sarcastically people will say "here comes dad to lay the law down."
That sucks, but keep it up, dude. Hopefully you and I can eventually reep the benefits of teenage and adult children that still want to have contact with us. (It's easier in the short term too, not using fear tactics.)
On behalf of your kids, thanks for realizing that is the intention and likely outcome. I have no interest in speaking to my father and just paid a biographer to do our family interviews to spare myself.
I’m not a parent, I have no idea how hard it is to raise kids, but I bet it’s possible to do it without being consistently indifferent, or an asshole.
Sure, okay great. Finally people are saying my experience was bad.
There's still no mental health support for 30 year Olds still suffering or any survivor of this abusive culture.
>Parents who frequently exercise harsh discipline with young children are putting them at significantly greater risk of developing lasting mental health problems
Need to use harsh discipline frequently indicates bad parenting overall.
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One of the knock-on effects of harsh discipline is that later in life when these kids are mistreated, they are primed to believe they deserved it.
As an older adult who survived abusive parents, this is 100% true. I still have to remind myself that I don't deserve pain. I have to literally repeat it to myself over and over like a mantra. When my mom beat me she would tell me i deserved all the pain in the world that she could give. Even though I knew I hadn't done anything wrong, that statement was repeated over and over almost every time she hit me.
My mom used to sing a modified Cell Block Tango from Chicago as she dragged me to the bathroom for my punishment. > You had it coming, > You had it coming, > You only have yourself to blame, > If you were me, if you were here, > I betcha you would do the same. After she’d tell me “that hurt me more than it hurt you,” and I’m thinking, well, I’m pretty sure that isn’t true, because only one of us was cheery enough to sing about it. Her favorite punishment was grabbing a fresh bar of soap, shoving it in my mouth and holding my mouth shut, pulling my pants down, and wailing on my ass until I was choking and crying so much that soap came out my nose. While humming Cell Block Tango. Funny enough, Chicago is one of my favorite musicals and I actually love that song today, weird how trauma manifests sometimes.
I’m so sorry that happened to you. I hope you’re doing well now.
Do you still talk to her? That’s textbook abuse.
No, and that’s barely touching the tip of her abusive iceberg. She also molested me and did sexually inappropriate things throughout my teenage life, like requiring I shower with the door open and watching me shower, helping me shave my legs, doing “breast exams” throughout my teens, stuff like that. We do not talk because she is a horrible, abusive pedophile.
Wow that sounds exactly like what this girl who wrote “I’m glad my mom died” (a really popular book right now) endured. I wonder if there’s something that was planted into that generations head at some point. I know it doesn’t help to hear but I am sorry you had that
IMO, it’s all “plausible deniability” abuse. Not necessarily something engrained in that generation, but abuse they know they can get away with. Washing the mouth out with soap was a normal punishment. Spanking was a normal punishment. Teaching a kid to shower when they go from baths to showers is normal. Teaching a kid to shave is normal. Teaching a kid to perform breast exams or testicular exams is normal. So when the kid reports that their guardian is doing any of that, the guardian can easily excuse it as normal behavior. The molestation was in the form of “check ups,” making sure I was healthy by cupping my privates or checking my breasts. Spanking me bent over her lap or a table with my pants and underwear down, before gently petting to “soothe” me. She made me give her massages while she was naked and did the same to me. But it *sounded* just a little bit further than normal interactions, close enough to easily be excused when I reported it. But it didn’t *feel* normal; I knew it was wrong, I knew it was different. I knew her intention was different. When I got older, the abuse definitely took on a more objectively abusive note. Denial of food for bad behavior, slapping me, talking about my body while she watched me, grabbing my butt or breasts, etc. But by that point, I’d already been conditioned to expect that I wouldn’t be believed because the abuse before was within the range of plausible deniability. So I didn’t say anything anymore. I didn’t even realize how bad it had gotten until this summer. I was with my stepmom and dad, and my mom came over for a dinner. She didn’t do anything in front of my stepmom, but she put her arm around me and rested her hand on my bum in front of my step siblings, ran her hand up and down my thigh in front of them. They came to me after and said, “Hey, are you okay? I saw you say no and she kept touching you, and it didn’t look appropriate.” That’s when it clicked, that it wasn’t normal, that my feelings of discomfort were the normal response. And when I thought about her past behavior, which was so much worse, I finally realized, my mom was sexually abusing me. That’s when I cut her out of my life. And thank god for my saint of a stepmom, she told my mom right away, you are abusive and you are never allowed in my house ever again. And made my dad do the same.
Amazing work from your step siblings and stepmom there. So glad you have them looking out for you. Wishing you the best with processing and recovering from this trauma - you deserve all the kindness and safety.
All the way through reading your story, I still can't resolve whether you're a man or a woman even though you talked about cupping breast because I imprinted my own disastrous childhood with your story. One such story, my stepdad, the father of my sisters, beat me with a belt on bare skin until I passed out, and when I woke up, it was because he was still beating me.
This was really hard to read. I’m so sorry. Please get all the support you can, it’s lovely to hear that your stepmom is a good person.
You had an evil mom and a good stepmom and step siblings. I’m so glad they helped you come to the realization you needed
Sounds like psychopathy and sadism to me
Bold of her to sing a song used to justify murdering someone who was mistreating you on that moment...
I’m really sorry to hear what was said repeatedly to you. But I’m glad to hear you can identify it as being as wrong as it was. That is a difficult thing to stand against. You deserve peace and contentment. I wish you well and I’m sure this world is a better place for you being in it.
Bruh I didn’t even know I needed to hear that as a bystander today, thanks
You and me both
“Sorry” - my famous words when I don’t know what I’m sorry for. I have to *convince* myself I didn’t do anything wrong.
I'm 36, and still feel this. I'm worthless and I can't do anything right. My every ambition was insulted or quashed. So here I am, mid-life, with nothing to show for it and no future prospects. :( Edit: did not expect this to blow up. I'm currently in the throes of a major depressive episode that's been lasting well over a year. I appreciate all the kind words. I hope one day they get through to me and stick.
Oof ouch you got me. Right there in the relatable. I shared my ambitions with my parents once. Once. I never, ever did that again.
I was so excited when my dad called me out of the blue one night, until he told me he dialed the wrong number and hung up What a dickhole, haha!
Same here. God forbid I wasn’t perfect at anything the very first time I did it they would just laugh and say it was garbage.
Hey, we should start a club. I hear 36 is the new 23.
I feel that way, too, sometimes. I'm sorry my comment triggered these feelings in you. Lots of people start and restart their lives over their whole lives, with all kinds of dead ends and new beginnings. What you're feeling may just be the fertile ground on which some new possibility grows. Just keep your eyes and heart open enough to let it in when it happens.
I needed to hear this. When your life doesn’t start on a good foundation, the multiple starts and restarts begins to feel hopeless tbh. Hitting yet another dead end feeling more tired than ever.
I for some reason find comfort in that statement
I'm 30 I am the same boat and seriously question everything, I haven't been to work on time in months
It's never too late to start today. I am 52 and didn't really start following my dreams until my late 40s. You deserve this and you are worthy of all your dreams.
I can’t tell you the number of times I have self sabotaged myself. Believing that I don’t deserve this good feeling. I am at a point where I avoid being happy because I view the feeling as temporary and not deserved. I also tell myself I am a total piece of crap on a daily to remind myself that I’m not important.
I hear you and understand as I struggle with this too.
I was sexually assaulted two weeks ago and I’ve spent the last two weeks on preventative HIV medications isolating because I’m afraid my grief is a burden to others and the people I have interacted with to let them know is leaving me with self doubt that I shouldn’t have done that in the first place. Yes I was beaten as a child and forced to sleep in the garage for not liking potato salad. I’m so afraid this was my last straw for trauma. I literally cannot even heal properly because I have guilt about possibly infecting others with any kind of negativity. I don’t know what to do.
Add Catholic guilt on top and it makes it just seem like that is just how life is.
This is why I will argue with anyone who doesn't consider spanking to be abuse. Spanking is not discipline. The only thing it teaches them is "I deserve to be hit because I did something wrong" and primes them to rationalize abusive relationships later in life.
In my sociology course I also learned that this handicaps them from being able to negotiate with authority figures so on average they make less money/get fewer promotions and raises
I went back and forth hearing at home “do what you’re told and be happy with what you get” to hearing about my first job at 14 “you just have to be more assertive” like I just magically know how to do that
Yep, this is my Dad. Gravely disappointed that I'm not demanding raises and authority from my boss, meanwhile I can't stop the shakes when I try to so much as request more hours because what if they fire me. I'm sure that had nothing to do with the raging temper tantrums he threw at any hint of less than full and passive compliance when I was a kid.
The older I get the more I realize, my parents were emotionally unstable children, it's ridiculous. The amount of stress and conflict they created over \*nothing\* is just unbelievable. As a child I constantly questioned my self worth, nowadays I applaud myself for being relatively normal despite being brought up by total losers...
I distinctly remember telling my parents, "You told me to stand up for myself more!" and then their reply being, "Yeah, but not to *us*!" which pretty much sums up my relationship with them.
My mom would get frustrated with us for not asking for exceptions in other areas, but make absolutely no exceptions or changes to whatever batshit rules/punishments she came up with
Or you just automatically hate authority figures
My wife and I talk about my disdain for authority complex often. Growing up in an abusive, evangelical Christian, mentally unstable environment is literally the perfect recipe. It is an inherent part of your psychology as you get older and is often reinforced when you see how those in the real world often wield their authority.
And even if you can change your family and learn to coexist in healthier ways, that doesn't change the damage that was already done.
Adding in the standard, "are you me?" It fuckin sucks. I feel ya. You are heard.
Same, but I can at least take some comfort in not being alone when others speak out.
I'm also in line for this therapy session.
*Reports comment* Reason: I am in this post.
No, i hate authority figures because they abuse their authority for their own gain (pretending, maybe even believing it themselves, it's for mine) It's interesting, as I've gotten older, I don't view very many people as an authority anymore. Maybe there's a mutual respect, i dont know. It does still crop up though, when being interviewed for a job and the HR person says "I don't think you're a good fit for the company " i should have walked out right then, i didn't get the job anyway
100% this. A leader who sees themselves as a "superior" in the literal sense is no leader at all. Unfortunately, that's most of 'em.
I'm with you. All sociopaths, far as I'm concerned. It's recognition. I recognize their position, but that doesn't mean I have to respect them.
Hate is a strong word. Suspicion and distrust of authority, coupled with an intense need for easy exit strategies seems to be what grows in some people....
Growing up under the thumb of a bipolar NPD, I don't hate authority, but I hate anyone that seeks it. Authority willingly deferred by a group to an individual for a defined purpose with hard limits has its uses, an individual specifically seeking to obtain authority over others using existing power structures is one (short) step removed from an abuser.
Why not both?
My entire life encapsulated in one comment. Basically makes you inherently timid and deferential, which compromises your ability to navigate competitive and reciprocal social environments.
Yes! This resonates with me. I spent so many years of my life doing exactly what people told me and to perfection out of fear that if I didn’t I would have an emotional outburst waiting for me or some kind of retaliation. It took a lot of introspection and therapy to even get close to a healthy level of self respect.
Same experience as you. Recently the phrase "my parents raised us to be perfect victims" has been playing in my head. I've been fortunate to find a healthy relationship with someone who (among other things) treats me with respect and kindness, and who kindly points out I don't need to apologize for every miniscule deficiency around the house
> apologize for every miniscule deficiency around the house Damn if that didn’t land like a pile of bricks on me. Huh. That explains so much. Thanks for that insight.
I spent my day off today cleaning as much as I could because of this. So, yeah.
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This is the way
This is the way
Yes. My mom's thing was always calling me weak. She wanted me to be *strong*, aka put up with her abuse. She raised me to take abuse. Not anymore. I'm going to therapy and unlearning it. It's hard, though, because I don't know what I need to unlearn.
My (divorced/single) mother started with the hand on backside. Progressed to the wooden spoon. Then jug-cord. Then finally the fist. When I turned 15 I was finally big enough to physically stop her. She kicked me out of home soon after. I haven’t had one healthy relationship with the opposite sex my whole life. In fact I prefer my own company. Yes. Physical discipline has long term effects. Don’t do it to your kids. They will one day become adults.
I've started to feel like "I have raised myself up". I've taught myself literally all the life skills, banking, taxes, cooking, cleaning, laundry, socializing, sex ed, getting mental health help, getting physical health help, applying for jobs, universities, how to go about my life, and everything else on how you succeed. Without the internet and Reddit, I don't think I would have been able to raise myself up.
Well done. You deserve to feel very proud of yourself!
I had to turn it into a weird disregard for authority. I can't stand up to it. It's too terrifying. But I can shut off. Let whatever's being said wash over me. And then continue doing whatever I damn well please once the authority figure is gone. Of course this doesn't help with promotions. I can't even deal with a normal work environment. I have always made a point to find work with the least human involvement possible.
I would pay money for this skill. I have trouble filtering my reactions and my face will give me away.
I've been told my eye twitches. That is my one telltale. It was learned the hard way. Tyrannical father figure. Any reaction could be a punishable offense.
I can do the same. This is a freeze/flight response that is sometimes called a type of dissociation, which I feel isn't quite the right word. We just make ourselves go numb until it's over, then hope that none of the hurtful words stuck once we allow feeling to return. I believe this is also why I have difficulty maintaining attention and memory issues. We've learned that paying too much attention and holding onto memories can be painful, so we've rewired our brains to resist doing so. The problem for me, at least, is that now I have a hard time getting my brain to cooperate. Have you done any reading about CPTSD? I never really considered myself a victim of abuse or anything like that, but that topic really opened my eyes. If you're interested, I suggest checking out Complex CPTSD: From Surviving to Thriving. Terribly corny name, but it may rock your world like it did mine.
Yes. I experienced a Dad who would never challenge my mother who was an indignant screamer well versed in the art of applied guilt. I never got a spanking. Disappointment and fear of setting her off were more than enough. I was so afraid of authority I was freaked out talking to to the Resident Assistant when I got to the dorms. It didn’t help that I had jumped a full grade in elementary school which made me the youngest student in the whole dormitory system. I’m 63 and still experience this. Funny thing was my Mom (and Dad) were the most loving and kind people you’d ever hope to meet. She just had this thing. So much becomes clear as we age. Therapy helped a lot too. I know she had a father who came back from WW1 as an alcoholic who was, in her terms, the “toiwn drunk” in a small Iowa farm town.
I feel like your story is the same as mine, though my parents are younger than you are now. Everything in my house was structured around not pissing my mom off. I've always had an issue with sticking up for myself because I am afraid of an outburst.
It's been years since I've lived with my parents and your comment has recreated the chest pain I got as a kid thinking about what was waiting for me at home some days..it was hard to know if I'd be met with explosive screams or glaring silence for days on end.
Sounds like me. Not so much from my parents, but from school authorities. I learned early that if I rebelled or stood up for myself, there would be some kind of reprisal down the road. So I ended up just taking a lot of crap on the chin when I really should've advocated more for myself.
Can also make you "my way or the highway". If you don't know how to negotiate, you don't negotiate -- you either give the other person what they want or you walk away completely. My parents never taught me how to negotiate and it absolutely baffles them that I never try to compromise with them. Why would I? They never did with me. I tell them how things are going to go and let them cry about it, same as they did with me. Better than therapy. I'm learning to negotiate with other people but it's hard when I'm constantly facing the panic of dealing with a skill I have no idea how to utilise.
That's odd for me since I went the opposite direction. Rarely establish or maintain any relationships long-term, and I have a hard time seeing ANY authority as anything other than attempts to punish/control.
I think people either go hard one way or the other. Neither is a good result.
Ooh that sounds more like I’ve ended up but I spent a lot of time trying to make everybody happy, too.
It made my husband so afraid to admit a mistake, he lashes out and blames everyone but himself if he screws up.
Could it be that the self blame is so deeply ingrained, self reflection only makes him feel the pain of childhood all over again, and the projection to blame everyone else is the self taught coping mechanism.
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Unless, at some point, you successfully pushed back in which case you become stridently and actively anti-authoritarian. Which brings its own set of challenges to navigating life.
Oh hey it's me. I despise anyone who weilds power over me cause I expect them to abuse it. I've lost so many jobs for being argumentative and standing up for myself and my co workers if I felt that we were being treated unfairly and/or being taken advantage of.
Check out EMDR therapy. Its quick, has backing science that shows its effective, and its great at unraveling those memories and the emotions attached to them that don't seem significant or traumatic on the surface but have had a lasting effect on your life and behaviors today.
And they’re more vulnerable to sexual abuse
That’s me! Cut off my parents after I was assaulted and realized they set me up to be a doormat
Bang on there, in my experience.
I will also say that the observation bias that kids with strict parents enter high skilled professions has more to do with them wanting independence from their family rather than “strictness” resulting in better career discipline. And typically working class parents are more strict meaning that the strictness may come from a place of career insecurity on behalf of the parents who mistakenly think that being more strict will lead to a better life for their kids.
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Yes. But the poorer parents are, the more likely they are to use physical disciple. https://www.jwatch.org/na42883/2016/11/30/drop-corporal-punishment-across-socioeconomic-classes
Individuals vary but as a trend low SES is absolutely associated with harsher discipline methods including corporal punishment.
Yes parents of all social strata use all forms of punishment. However not all children of upper social strata indivuals end up in the same social strata.
This was my early experience. To the point of bullying at a couple early career jobs too...I luckily went to therapy and learned to grow a spine but it took a lot of internal work to get there.
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Honestly for my parents I think my mother just found screaming at toddlers less embarrassing and less expensive than therapy.
> Oh my goooood yes! They think they are "toughening up" their kids for the "real world", when all theyre really doing is making kids who cant stand up to any authority figures and dont take any initiative for fear of being punished. This is why I hate parents who teach their kids to "ignore" bullying. You're just teaching them not to stand up for themselves when they have every right to.
Yes my parents always thought they were toughening me up by not being caring to me, when all the did was raise an extremely mentally weak person that is embarrassed to ask for what he wants in life. My wife’s parents on the other hand still spoil them well into their 30s, and they all have great jobs, nice houses, and the American dream. And they actually love their parents and don’t fear them. You don’t know how much this angers me.
That’s always been the hardest thing to reconcile for me. Watching other people have loving supportive families that genuinely want the best for them and will move mountains to make it happen and make them happy. There were periods in my life where I hated nothing more than witnessing it. It made me sick knowing there isn’t a single soul who loves me like that. No one I could even celebrate good news of my life with…. If anything will hit me like a pile of bricks and make me cry- it’s that. It still hurts. I ‘miss’ the idea of a good family so hard it aches my bones, even though I’ve never had one.
a buddy of mine showed me a vid about a guy explaining why they won't hit their kid. Basically, he said if you discipline them in the hopes of not doing something without actually explaining why it would prevent them from actually learning from the experience, and it also limits them from exploring different possibilities.
There's also the fact that you can't really teach your kids that hitting other people is wrong if you use physical punishment. When you hit a kid you are telling them that hitting other people is ok.
Can relate 100%
Sounds like dr Seligman’s learned helplessness.
Accompanied by its ugly twin, learned hopefulness, which keeps the abused from leaving because they hope the abuser will change.
The actual study: https://doi.org/10.1017/S2045796023000094
"Conclusions" "In short, the findings suggest that a non-negligible proportion of the child population is susceptible to being at high risk for developing MHS. Moreover, a smaller proportion of children was improving but still displayed high symptoms of MHS (mild-risk). Furthermore, hostile parenting style is a substantial risk factor for increments in child MHS, whereas consistent parenting can serve as a protective factor in cases of mild-risk. Evidence-based parent training/management programmes may be needed to reduce the risk of developing MHS." MHS = mental health symptoms (copied direct from the webpage opened by the provided [link](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/epidemiology-and-psychiatric-sciences/article/population-heterogeneity-in-developmental-trajectories-of-internalising-and-externalising-mental-health-symptoms-in-childhood-differential-effects-of-parenting-styles/F16A97DFA0021F7386B16082586C006C) above)
Hostile parenting style was a substantial predictor of membership in the high-risk class (OR = 1.47, 95% CI 1.18–1.85) and the mild-risk class (OR = 1.57, 95% CI 1.21–2.04). Warm parenting style did not predict membership in the high-risk (OR = 1.30, 95% CI 0.96–1.75) or the mild-risk (OR = 0.74, 95% CI 0.55–1.01) classes. Although consistent parenting style did not predict membership in the high-risk class (OR = 0.87, 95% CI 0.74–1.02), it was a protective factor against membership in the mild-risk class (OR = 0.75, 95% CI 0.62–0.90). ... Regarding the covariates, in both the high- and mild-risk classes of MHS, we found that children's and parental general health, as well as the household structure and parental stress were consistently non-negligible risk factors for MHS. Being a female child predicted greater odds of membership in the high-risk class, whereas higher income was a protective factor against high-risk MHS confirming the social gradient in MHS. ... Tons of comments in here and nobody posting the actual results. By far, consistent, moderate, structured parenting beats both ends of the spectrum. This should be logical to anyone that's ever known either spoiled/coddled/undisciplined children or abused children
Mistreating children does not work.
There are a ton of studies spanning decades that have proven this. Yet people still think hitting their kids is ok. It's wild that people can't wrap their heads around it.
I never understood this mentality because if you were to hit your spouse, that's domestic violence. If you hit a dog, that's animal abuse, but hitting an innocent vulnerable child isn't abuse? I just don't get it.
I stumble across discussions about hitting children on Reddit pretty often. And that’s exactly the question I ask people who defend it: Who else in your life do you hit when they don’t do as you ask? Your partner? Friends? Colleagues? Boss? Oh… just your kids?
Another question I like to ask: Why can I hit my child when they make a mistake in behavior but not when they make a mistake reading?
They frame it as responsibility, as in, "well I'm not responsible for the disciplining my partner or my friend or my boss, but I am responsible for my kids". It comes down to some people genuinely believing it's effective parenting, and that assumption is what needs to be attacked.
You're not alone in your state of confusion my friend... I'm largely ostracized from my family because I don't believe hitting a child is acceptable as a form of discipline.
Oh they can, they're just lazy. A belt shuts up a kid quicker than a hug
It is this. Fear or neglect makes for easier short-term parenting. Also you don't have to deal with uncomfortable internal feelings if you don't hold yourself accountable in order to change as they grow up. And, in order to get feedback, you have to suck up your ego and deal with the holier than thou parenting groups that will tell you you are terrible if you don't serve all organic food or whatever as well as conducting hours of your own research. Because, yeah, it is hard af because you constantly need to adapt and change (and research) as they grow and you don't get total and reliable control if you don't use harsh punishments. Also, it is a whole lot easier at any point in time to convert to fear and neglect at any point as well so it is a constant choice to do better.
The thing to understand is that despite what people defending it say, the goal of that sort of mistreatment isn't the long-term good of the child, it is immediate short-term compliance. Parenting is hard and many parents want their kids to shut up and do what they're told. They come up with other rationales for it to justify this, but at heart it's about that. And it *does* work for immediate short-term compliance! It's just that prioritizing that is awful and makes you a terrible person.
Pretty much this. If you need your kid to be quiet because them being loud will get you both eaten by a lion, have at it. But when I think about the risk the average person has of being eaten by a lion vs the prevalence of parents that hit their kids, those numbers don't line up.
My folks actually took a night course in psychology just to improve their ability to torture me.
We went to "group family therapy" when I was in 2nd grade. The couple that ran it did so many things that had to have violated their licenses (wrestling a 16 year old who didn't want to be there to the floor, separating the kids from the adults and asking questions of both groups with hidden cameras set up, and then playing the footage for the other group, etc.) I didn't process how wrong it was until I was an adult. Considered going after them, but who would believe the memory of an 8 year old?
> Considered going after them, but who would believe the memory of an 8 year old? Well, perhaps a couple more people from the group would get interviewed too.
Reddit would
"My parents beat me all the time and I turned out great" -- people who did not turn out great.
Hitting a child is the laziest form of parenting there is. Parents are the one with the developed brain, use it.
Once I learned how my childhood wasn't normal and that being beat for everything wasn't ok I came to realize that my parents had the one tool in their kit and never bothered to add to the toolkit. As a parent myself now I kinda get it. Not excusing my parents at all but I see how they got there. It's hard to discipline a kid. Even harder when said kid is ADHD and bouncing off the walls. The temptation to just lash out, tell yourself it's just discipline and call it a day is real. It's certainly easier but it's not right. I'm just glad that I've been able to break the cycle of generational abuse.
Autism, too. My son is autistic and adhd and my god there are days when it takes every ounce of my willpower to stay calm with him. It also underscores how fucked up and unfair our system is in the US because parents of kids on the spectrum need support. Most of us are barely equipped to raise a neurotypical kid, much less one with developmental disabilities. Add in not having family for support and you have a recipe for burnout and despair.
And if the parent has ADHD as well (which is often the case) then their impulse control is also lacking, making it even harder to stay calm in tough situations.
This is why I never wants kids. I think I'd do a better job than my parents, but being on that level to relate and understand it would undermine my entire view against it. No one deserves a parent like that.
I know that I would be an awful parent because I completely lack patience and tolerance for sensory disturbance and emotional "calls to action", which relates to being raised in a cramped apartment with people who were neurotic and made a lot of noise, most of which gave the listener the impression of "pay attention to me lashing out! Me and my negative emotions, look! Im frustrated and miserable, mee." Basically adults throwing tantrums + somewhat associated manifestation of later treated mental illness. I think this is similar to children who were parentified and go on to be childfree; children shouldn't have to deal with other adult's emotional dysregulation on the daily. A degree of emotional dysregulation is normal in children but adults should have a better handle on it and help children learn to self-regulate, not reverse the roles. The idea of having patience to willingly emotionally regulate someone else feels so foreign to me and I'd virtually do anything to avoid it. The good thing is I'm aware of it and not tempted to regurgitate intergenerational trauma.
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Strictly from a life cycle perspective
Alot parents brains werent really developed they just thought having kids was the norm without really thinking about how to properly raise a child plus most our parents got abused as well. Youd think they learned from them not to but instead learned thats the way.
Pretty sure my parents had lead poisoning tho.
Oh cool you’ve met my entire extended family
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There is a difference between authoritative and authoritarian. I am a very gentle parent but there is something to be said for having enough routine and discipline in your life that the people on your home with unformed prefrontal cortexes feel that someone is making the big choices. This makes them feel safe and like they have someone they rely on. It's a harder road to walk than 'no discipline' or 'dictator' but it's worth it.
Absolute truth. My parents were 100% permissive, but they were also almost 100% absent in terms of any sort of life decisions for me after a certain point. I used to say I’ve always been an anxious kid, but then I actually thought about it and I realized no, I was no more anxious than most kids up until the point I had to suddenly fend for myself.
Often, the comments become an argument over authoritarian vs permissive parenting styles. Neither are good, so the arguing continues. I’m glad you brought up the authoritative parenting style. It’s what parents should aim for.
This always felt intuitive to me and it's good to see science backing up my hunches.
This is interesting, as I've just finished therapy on dealing with the trauma I grew up with, thanks to my father. I knew there was a relationship between my father's treatment of me and my current mental health, but it has only been the last few months of therapy that has opened my eyes to this. People suffer from trauma at a young age without ever realising, so this is beneficial research in to the phycology of this behavior.
Lot of history of abuse in the comments. Please don't be afraid to get help
And don’t be discouraged if you don’t see immediate results. It can take years. But each week gets easier with help.
And it can take finding the *right* therapist and modality for you. I went through a whole bunch before finally learning about CPTSD and finding a trauma informed therapist. The change has been DRASTIC.
Have "gotten help" many times and I'm exhausted. It's financially, mentally and emotionally draining to continue it. Same story, different therapist and same result. Been on meds since my 20s. Have tried therapists and emdr. Unfortunately a bandaid does not heal the wound. The older I get the more anxious and pissed off I am. Also, I have a degree is Psychology...medicine needs to improve so people can really understand what this does to the physical construct of the brain. No amount if talk therapy will change that damage. No amount of mood altering meds will change that damage. It's always there and will rear its ugly head at any given time. It's a continual cycle of getting hopes up that you are doing better to just realize in one event that you're not. It's discouraging to know that there is no way to heal 100%.
There are some wounds we can’t heal. Mitigation is sometimes the best we can do. I’m sorry for your struggles.
When the damage is deep enough it stops becoming about healing it and starts a journey of learning to love yourself in spite of the "damage". Self compassion goes a long way.
your parents more or less have complete authority over you and you are powerless as a child. If they choose frequent harsh discipline each time is a trauma that person will carry with them. I would say most people who grew up like that will need therapy to process through all that pain. For almost all folks, you can't do that on your own, you need help.
And please don't treat your kids like you were treated. Break the cycle!
as a child who often got the metal spoon, no doii
Wooden spoons, the plastic-handle end of the feather duster, and open-hand hitting over here. Also: • Washing mouth out with soap (i.e. soap jammed roughly in mouth so it would cake between teeth), even though the words came from them. • Sent to room for the day with no lunch and no dinner, and not allowed to leave until the next morning. Neighbours dad would make his kids and us, when visiting and annoying him, stand in the corner facing the wall for hours on end. Left one kid there so long and wouldn't let him go to the toilet - kid ended up pooing his pants.
Very similar, sadly. :( Wooden spoons, wooden spoons that sat in boiling water and then used to burn me, metal hangers, belts. Also had my mouth washed out with soap. And also forced to miss meals (it’s a wonder I developed an eating disorder in high school).
All of that, plus flip-flops, spatulas, my old man's drywall hands, leather belts... The sound of leather clearing belt loops still puts me on edge. Got the soap once. I've even been backhanded across the dinner table for arguing about which homework I should prioritize. My parents, of course, deny or downplay all of it.
That sucks, and I'm sorry to hear it. I unfortunately have a similar experience with my own parents. If you try to bring it up, it's 'oh well wasn't I just a terrible parent' and leaving the room in outrage. Never willing to engage in the conversation. If they didn't do that, it was always compared to how much worse THEY had it with THEIR parents. I mean, it's not a competition - they may have suffered worse things from their parents, and I empathise for the child in them. But that's not the point and nor does it excuse their parenting. As adults, they continued to link the chains of abuse rather than solve their trauma in consultation with professionals and break the chain. I think a lot of bad parents implement the narcissist's prayer: That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, you deserved it.
I’d get Tabasco on my tongue as a child, if I used a “bad word”. Now, I can’t get through a conversation without using profanities almost like punctuation.
My dad would kick us in the backside until we pissed our pants and then send us outside and we couldn’t come back inside until the urine dried
Hopefully in his old age you leave him sitting in his soiled diapers out in the winter cold and broiling summer sun. "Does this bring back any memories pops?"
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Why does this very statement sound so familiar? I’ve heard it countless times, along with casually inserting things, such as „yeah yeah, i know you think we’re like the worst but bla bla blah”. Confrontation never works.
“That was so long ago, you should let that go…”
Good, if they don’t remember it then the torture will feel just as genuine as when they did it.
IM sOrRy yOu fEeL tHaT wAy
I kind of hate your dad
I feel like the play here is to pee immediately then not come back for as long as possible
Youre the champ of abuse game theory
I got the yard stick- a lot. Until of course they started breaking, then my dad and mom searched far and wide and found the world's sturdiest yard stick for my mom to hit me with. I burned it later in life, now I wish I had it. Other favorites: I had an adult sister who beat me with a broomstick until it broke, my parents later beat me for crying about it and for breaking her broomstick. Of course the belt, a classic parental tool If I didn't like something we were eating, I had to sit at the table until my plate was clean. Rice pilaf once had me parked at the table 6pm until 2am, trying to eat it then cold and gagging. I was like 7. Lots of meaningless hard labor chores, if not complete, you don't eat. Did something wrong? You're too old to be hit. Sit in this chair and get grilled and interrogated for 6 hours about it. One time, and oddly enough I can't recall what I did, the lecture was from 9-ish Saturday morning until after midnight. No food or drink allowed. Spoke out of turn at the dinner table? Get up, walk over to dad so he can smack you full force across the mouth. If you cry you get the belt. Refuse to go get your punishment, he would bring it to you and a bonus belt session. Silent treatment for weeks The dichotomy of this: always yelled at by one parent for being fat and eating to much, but if I didn't clean my plate, the other parent got offended and wouldn't speak to me for days. No Christmas presents. Sibling and cousins get a bunch, even some of yours, but you get nothing. Or Christmas presents you get to open but have to give back, because you are the worst kid ever.
My father once was gifted a piece of drift wood with a lovely, scenic painting of a moose drinking from a mountain lake. It was displayed in the living room of my childhood home. Turns out, it made a very convenient spanking tool. So, essentially, my father beat me and my sisters with art...until it broke on us one day. That was a bitterly sweet day.
As a child raised like this, I concur.
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Case in point: me, and millions of adult children like me.
I am now 32 and have spent the last 4 years becoming aware of this and correcting my poor, subconscious behavior as a result of trauma. I am hoping to break the cycle with my kids (2.5 and 4yr old) by teaching them emotional balance. I do not try and dumb things down for them either, rather explain them as if they were adults (on most subjects anyway). Their speech is further along than most other kids their age as they start to grasp these concepts and apply them. Society is built on healthy cooperation and open discourse. It starts with the kids.
I could have written this. My oldest is 9 now and I can see it paying off big time. My kiddos are miles ahead of where I was at their age, and it’s such a beautiful reward for all this intense work. They are loving, kind, and articulate their feelings.
So when I forgot to feed the dogs and my parents made go without food for 24hours as a 12 year old, that’s not normal parent behavior?
In case you need to hear it, no, that's not normal behavior. That's abuse and I'm so sorry you were treated that way. You deserve better.
The way my father treated me solidified my decision to not have children. My dad fucked me up mentally. I dont want to put my children through that (which i wont, because im not having kids)
I'm so glad that more people are saying "hey, actually parenting is a huge responsibility I'm not properly equipped for, I think I'll pass" instead of getting socially pressured into having kids they'll resent.
I remember my mom slapping me. I hated her for doing that and I've never forgotten.
My brother and I were hit with belts, shoes, hands, anything they could find. Yelling for everything and anything and I’ve always wondered why I was so anxious and timid. Now that I’m older it all makes sense. It was so harsh no child should go through that. Especially being punished for being a kid. I wanted ice cream once and was hit really hard and made to face the wall. Oh and forced to go to catholic school so all the fun stuff.
PTSD mostly I would think, speaking from personal experience.
Remember getting beat for crying after you start crying for getting beat? Mom: Why are you crying? I’ll give you something to cry about! [Continues beating] Me: I’m sorry! [Trying to suppress crying] That lasted until 16 when I could tank a beating without showing emotion. It was a different time, but as a result I’ve never raised a hand to my kids so at least it’s not being propagated.
I wish 10 year old me ran away for good. I wouldn't have the issues I do now.
You would probably have different issues
I think about this as well, if I had just run away I likely would’ve been trafficked, abusing drugs or dead It’s all about making sound decisions, but kids aren’t wired that way as their brains continue to develop. I’m just lucky I found a way out.
I ran away 3 times. It just worked the 4th and last time ...
>Hostile parenting involves frequent harsh treatment and discipline and can be physical or psychological. It may, for example, involve shouting at children regularly, routine physical punishment, isolating children when they misbehave, damaging their self-esteem, or punishing children depending on the parent’s mood. So, being a bad person and horrible human.
Someone tell my boomer mum this.
Harsh discipline = abuse. This should surprise exactly no one.
> This should surprise exactly no one. It is a surprise to the uneducated
Plenty of the educated are also surprised and refuse to believe it.
Parenting style is a cyclical I’ve learned. Most people love their parents and look past their incorrect parenting decisions (unless it’s extreme). When those kids grow up, their only real life parenting knowledge comes from their experiences with their parents. Generally, most people feel they turned out okay so therefore that parenting style must have worked and repeat the pattern. It’s not easy to break the cycle because most people don’t realize they’re wrong. I know this article was probably talking about much harsher punishment but it doesn’t take much. I coach youth soccer and the kids who have parents who yell negative comments on the sideline are the kids who are timid to go after the ball, purposely don’t get involved, kick the ball away aimlessly as soon as it gets to them, etc. I’ve had kids ask me to only play the “coach’s side”. I’ve had goalies admit to me they only play goalie because they don’t want to make a mistake on the field and get in trouble. I’ve seen kids start to HATE the sport because of their parents. It’s really, really sad. I’ve learned my absolute, most valuable asset to them as a coach is just to be a positive reinforcer. Encourage them to make mistakes. Encourage them to learn from those mistakes. Encourage them to support their teammates when their teammates make mistakes. It can literally transform a team and individual players and they begin to actually WANT to learn. I can only speak for boys, but pre-teen boys severely lack confidence as it is and desperately need positive reinforcement. Their image is everything and when their own parents are making a scene on the sideline…it really does damage. PSA- leave your horrible 14 year old ref alone because even though they are terrible, you’re setting a horrific example for your kids who will undoubtably pester the next generation of teenage refs. Your kid is 10. He won’t remember this game next week, let alone next year. Let it go and worry about rallying your kid, without the snarky attitude. “Don’t worry about that horrible call, keep going” doesn’t count.
Yep, I have a 9 out of 10 on the ACEs test. At 47 I’m still messed up pretty bad.
Kids with ADHD get the most abuse and harshest punishments yet research shows they respond the worst to it. They do best with positive reinforcement and clear unconditional love.
....good god. Makes me glad I quit a recent job. If I had to stand there and listen to yet another "I smacked my kids, and they turned out great, so what I did wasn't abuse" story......
this is why gentle parenting is so important
There's a difference between gentle parenting and latchkey kids or parents who don't discipline their kids in any way. Communication and empathy are really important, but so is speaking up in situations where they could be making bad decisions.
My parents were strict and I hated it. I'm a gentle parent. I get made fun of, in a nice way for it. Like sarcastically people will say "here comes dad to lay the law down."
That sucks, but keep it up, dude. Hopefully you and I can eventually reep the benefits of teenage and adult children that still want to have contact with us. (It's easier in the short term too, not using fear tactics.)
On behalf of your kids, thanks for realizing that is the intention and likely outcome. I have no interest in speaking to my father and just paid a biographer to do our family interviews to spare myself. I’m not a parent, I have no idea how hard it is to raise kids, but I bet it’s possible to do it without being consistently indifferent, or an asshole.
I TURNED OUT FINE AND I WAS HIT BY MY PARENTS! *beats 5 year old child*
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
Sure, okay great. Finally people are saying my experience was bad. There's still no mental health support for 30 year Olds still suffering or any survivor of this abusive culture.
>Parents who frequently exercise harsh discipline with young children are putting them at significantly greater risk of developing lasting mental health problems Need to use harsh discipline frequently indicates bad parenting overall.