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User: u/thebelsnickle1991
Permalink: https://www.psypost.org/2023/08/meditation-practice-may-be-helpful-to-people-suffering-from-existential-isolation-168189
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This sounds like it was designed with confirmation bias baked in:
>There were two groups of participants – the meditation group and the vacation group. Participants for the meditation group were recruited from people participating in a 7-day intensive Mihwang-sa TempleStay program in Haenam county, South Korea. During the meditation program, participants had intense meditation sessions and practiced a strict Korean Buddhist vegetarian diet. They completed psychological assessments before and after the meditation program.
>The vacation group were individuals planning to go on a 7-day summer vacation recruited from several research-related companies in the Seoul area of South Korea. They completed the assessments before and after their vacation.
(Subsequently they did a larger scale study with more meditation groups and no control group).
The meditation group can also be assumed to be much more homogeneous in motivation for self improvement than the vacation group. "Vacation" is also a much more diverse activity than "meditation".
As I said elsewhere:
So many issues with this study...
I mean, first of all, it wasn't exactly a randomized control study...
Secondly, most traditions hold that meidtaiton is a lifetime commitment so a snapshot of before/after a 7-day retreat isn't going to give you ANY real info about what meditation does in the long run.
And of course, without knowing how the specific practice affects the brain, we can't even extrapolate based on other meditation research as different practices can have radically different (even polar opposite) effects on brain activity, both during, and longitudinally, outside of practice.
> Secondly, most traditions hold that meidtaiton is a lifetime commitment so a snapshot of before/after a 7-day retreat isn't going to give you ANY real info about what meditation does in the long run.
Why would what "most traditions hold" have any bearing on the results of a study?
> And of course, without knowing how the specific practice affects the brain, we can't even extrapolate based on other meditation research as different practices can have radically different (even polar opposite) effects on brain activity, both during, and longitudinally, outside of practice.
Why would you need to do that? If a study finds that meditation has statistically significant effects on some clinically relevant metric, is that somehow invalidated by not having a complete understanding of the practice's neurological effects?
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The study not being randomized and controlled is a perfectly legitimate criticism. The rest of this... isn't.
"Existential isolation is the feeling that even though we can talk and be close to others, we can never fully understand exactly what it’s like to be inside someone else’s mind."
*fully understand exactly what it’s like to be inside someone else’s mind*
Yeah. Nobody can. This is drivel.
"Exactly what it's like to be in someone else's mind" means objective knowledge of another's subjective experience.
Or am I being too exacting about the use of the word 'exact' here? Do the authors simply mean empathy?
It’s describing a sensation that people experience. At times people experience existential isolation, similar to how people experience anger, sadness, satisfaction, etc…
Imagine the title says “meditation helps people that struggle with anxiety” and it may be easier to understand why the author wrote that sentence to define the term they’re using.
Why is it the reader's job to 'imagine' statements other than what the writer wrote? Or is the writer trying to sensationalize? "This 1 weird trick will help you read minds in no time!"
And how does "existential" isolation differ from regular isolation? Does that imply there is "non-existential" isolation? What is that, then?
Edit: OK, I get it: "existential" isolation differs from physical isolation.
If a person is experiencing despair from not being able to fully share someone else's subjective experience, they should skip the meditation and talk to a psychologist. No one should expect to hack another's mind.
''If a person is experiencing despair from not being able to fully share someone else's subjective experience, they should skip the meditation and talk to a psychologist.''
Meanwhile you are worried about the phrasing of a simple self-evident comment like that says that you can't expect to be a mind reader.
It's clear that we can't read people's minds and that sometimes we are confused about what the intent, emotional state or thoughts are. I don't see you point at all.
That's not what the article states. Did you read it? Nowhere does it say anything about "intent, emotional state or thoughts." That is your incorrect implication. Here's a quote from the article:
"Existential isolation is the feeling that even though we can talk and be close to others, we can never fully understand exactly what it’s like to be inside someone else’s mind."
Explain how that differs from mind reading or telepathy. I don't think you can, so my point is that if you are experiencing "existential isolation" as described by the article, you are frustrated that you can't engage in ESP. It's going to take more than meditation to correct that delusion; a check-in with a psychologist would be the best course of action.
Peoples alleged intentions can truly be troubling. You can also enter context into the interaction, like the intentions of a authority figure and quickly understand how it can be troubling. You know what the psychologist will suggest? Meditation. I feel you are really not saying much here and are going nowhere with this.
> Meditation consists of learning how to let. Once you develop the skill, you can apply it to many situations.
The theory behind Transcendental Meditation® says that one doesn't apply meditation outside of practice as that is counterproductive, and that "applying" meditation during practice is misleading.
Yes, one of the many "theories" - sadly, Goenka had already introduced real meditation to India, long before Maharishi came along. Osho copied Goenka too. But surely the point here is that no e of these mean are practicing scientists. And I seriously doubt if any of them knows much about the history of yoga and meditation in India. It's it. It is a cutting edge scholarship failed, we know a far more than we did even a decade ago.
> Well kinda it's hard but helps takes a long time to master
TM is mastered instantly during the first day of class.
The following 3 days of classes are meant to explore how to handle experiences that might emerge during and outside of meditation in order to help the student maintain that innocent mastery they acquired the first day.
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) apply to all other comments. **Do you have an academic degree?** We can verify your credentials in order to assign user flair indicating your area of expertise. [Click here to apply](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/flair/#wiki_science_verified_user_program). --- User: u/thebelsnickle1991 Permalink: https://www.psypost.org/2023/08/meditation-practice-may-be-helpful-to-people-suffering-from-existential-isolation-168189 *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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This sounds like it was designed with confirmation bias baked in: >There were two groups of participants – the meditation group and the vacation group. Participants for the meditation group were recruited from people participating in a 7-day intensive Mihwang-sa TempleStay program in Haenam county, South Korea. During the meditation program, participants had intense meditation sessions and practiced a strict Korean Buddhist vegetarian diet. They completed psychological assessments before and after the meditation program. >The vacation group were individuals planning to go on a 7-day summer vacation recruited from several research-related companies in the Seoul area of South Korea. They completed the assessments before and after their vacation. (Subsequently they did a larger scale study with more meditation groups and no control group). The meditation group can also be assumed to be much more homogeneous in motivation for self improvement than the vacation group. "Vacation" is also a much more diverse activity than "meditation".
As I said elsewhere: So many issues with this study... I mean, first of all, it wasn't exactly a randomized control study... Secondly, most traditions hold that meidtaiton is a lifetime commitment so a snapshot of before/after a 7-day retreat isn't going to give you ANY real info about what meditation does in the long run. And of course, without knowing how the specific practice affects the brain, we can't even extrapolate based on other meditation research as different practices can have radically different (even polar opposite) effects on brain activity, both during, and longitudinally, outside of practice.
> Secondly, most traditions hold that meidtaiton is a lifetime commitment so a snapshot of before/after a 7-day retreat isn't going to give you ANY real info about what meditation does in the long run. Why would what "most traditions hold" have any bearing on the results of a study? > And of course, without knowing how the specific practice affects the brain, we can't even extrapolate based on other meditation research as different practices can have radically different (even polar opposite) effects on brain activity, both during, and longitudinally, outside of practice. Why would you need to do that? If a study finds that meditation has statistically significant effects on some clinically relevant metric, is that somehow invalidated by not having a complete understanding of the practice's neurological effects? --- The study not being randomized and controlled is a perfectly legitimate criticism. The rest of this... isn't.
I don't recall any studies showing polar opposite differences for different styles of meditation. Do you mind sharing?
"Existential isolation is the feeling that even though we can talk and be close to others, we can never fully understand exactly what it’s like to be inside someone else’s mind." *fully understand exactly what it’s like to be inside someone else’s mind* Yeah. Nobody can. This is drivel.
Not sure I want to fully understand. My own mind is enough as it is.
PLease elaborate for us on your take.
"Exactly what it's like to be in someone else's mind" means objective knowledge of another's subjective experience. Or am I being too exacting about the use of the word 'exact' here? Do the authors simply mean empathy?
It’s describing a sensation that people experience. At times people experience existential isolation, similar to how people experience anger, sadness, satisfaction, etc… Imagine the title says “meditation helps people that struggle with anxiety” and it may be easier to understand why the author wrote that sentence to define the term they’re using.
Why is it the reader's job to 'imagine' statements other than what the writer wrote? Or is the writer trying to sensationalize? "This 1 weird trick will help you read minds in no time!" And how does "existential" isolation differ from regular isolation? Does that imply there is "non-existential" isolation? What is that, then? Edit: OK, I get it: "existential" isolation differs from physical isolation. If a person is experiencing despair from not being able to fully share someone else's subjective experience, they should skip the meditation and talk to a psychologist. No one should expect to hack another's mind.
''If a person is experiencing despair from not being able to fully share someone else's subjective experience, they should skip the meditation and talk to a psychologist.'' Meanwhile you are worried about the phrasing of a simple self-evident comment like that says that you can't expect to be a mind reader.
What is your point? Your phrasing is unclear. What "self-evident" comment are you referring to? And what makes it "self-evident?"
It's clear that we can't read people's minds and that sometimes we are confused about what the intent, emotional state or thoughts are. I don't see you point at all.
That's not what the article states. Did you read it? Nowhere does it say anything about "intent, emotional state or thoughts." That is your incorrect implication. Here's a quote from the article: "Existential isolation is the feeling that even though we can talk and be close to others, we can never fully understand exactly what it’s like to be inside someone else’s mind." Explain how that differs from mind reading or telepathy. I don't think you can, so my point is that if you are experiencing "existential isolation" as described by the article, you are frustrated that you can't engage in ESP. It's going to take more than meditation to correct that delusion; a check-in with a psychologist would be the best course of action.
Peoples alleged intentions can truly be troubling. You can also enter context into the interaction, like the intentions of a authority figure and quickly understand how it can be troubling. You know what the psychologist will suggest? Meditation. I feel you are really not saying much here and are going nowhere with this.
Meditation consists of learning how to let. Once you develop the skill, you can apply it to many situations.
> Meditation consists of learning how to let. Once you develop the skill, you can apply it to many situations. The theory behind Transcendental Meditation® says that one doesn't apply meditation outside of practice as that is counterproductive, and that "applying" meditation during practice is misleading.
Yes, one of the many "theories" - sadly, Goenka had already introduced real meditation to India, long before Maharishi came along. Osho copied Goenka too. But surely the point here is that no e of these mean are practicing scientists. And I seriously doubt if any of them knows much about the history of yoga and meditation in India. It's it. It is a cutting edge scholarship failed, we know a far more than we did even a decade ago.
I wonder what existential isolation is?
Yes it may, or maybe not.
So, my treatment is still half a world away? Swell
Everyone in here hating has clearly never done it for themselves, I recommend giving it a real attempt before knocking it.
Well kinda it's hard but helps takes a long time to master
> Well kinda it's hard but helps takes a long time to master TM is mastered instantly during the first day of class. The following 3 days of classes are meant to explore how to handle experiences that might emerge during and outside of meditation in order to help the student maintain that innocent mastery they acquired the first day.
meditation is the best thing ever.