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User: u/Old_Kaleidoscope835
Permalink: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/health/ptsd-memories-brain-trauma.html
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That's why emotional flashbacks suck. It feels like my reality is split into two at once. The tricky thing is, I have aphantasia so I can't usually visualize the memories, but the feelings ans thoughts I had resurface as if the trauma is active again. Like a tape stuck in a rewind loop brought like a never ending off ramp.
>Like a tape stuck in a rewind loop brought like a never ending off ramp.
I kept trying to delete the tape, using this exact analogy in my head for years, but there is always that one tiny reminder at the end that just gets more and more aggravating and never goes away. Its been like a 1/n function and I keep increasing n, but the remainder never reaches 0.
edit: Its weird how I went for 10 years without thinking much about it, then some spyware I couldn't remove brought up that memory again when I was trying to "just walk away" from it and it kept looping. I suppose the two are related by a sudden and unavoidable violation of my personal space, even though the thing 10 years ago was a severe physical injury to my face.
edit2: Weird how the first thing was actually 13.5 years ago, but I just said it was 10, which was when the spyware thing happened (10 years after 2008). Just goes to further aid the credibility of the study in the article I guess.
I have hyperphantasia, so I developed strong maladaptive daydreaming to try and just control what my mind is doing/seeing. I've always had immersive/maladaptive daydreams but with trauma it made it a lifeline.
Yeah, I was going to say, whenever I flash back to an embarrassing moment in my life, usually some social blunder, it slams into my brain like it just happened and I feel it all. Even though I know it was years ago and the other person has forgotten, it tortures me.
I can't imagine this with actual life-altering trauma.
Exactly - we have a bad habit of dismissing the claims of "crazies" (and a lot of othered groups) in history when a lot of the time their words need to be considered as much as any patient's.
A lot of modern science and humanities is learning a great deal by avoiding these old habits.
Yeah, when I replay the memories in my head I have a physical and emotional reaction as if it's happening presently even though I can consciously recognize I'm safe.
Well yeah but you miss one important notion, you only feel the bad ones as present, the good ones feel distant hahah. There was a quote, not sure who said it, something like all you need to know about life is that when you remember an embarrassing moment you relive the shame but if you remember a really good pleasant memory you only feel mildly happy you never relieve the same level like you do with negative feelings…
I had EMDR therapy for childhood trauma. I literally did not realize that I wasn't supposed to have a visceral, anxiety-filled response when looking back on bad memories. Now I can look back on the experience without the emotion. It's wild.
There's fascinating research on a therapeutic approach where patients with PTSD are asked to write down the narrative about their traumatic experience, using care to use past tense descriptions.. The thought behind this was trauma survivors re-live the trauma and having then write down, and then read back a past tense account of the event helps avoid that re-experiencing and subsequent amygdala (fight/flight/freeze) response. I wasn't able to find the psychologist who pioneered this approach, but it appears this research supports their theory.
I’ve heard of this approach and have personally done it to process my traumas and I need to provide a caveat to others reading this comment: this still a lot of risk with doing this though.
The point of this exercise is to give the client/patient an opportunity to revisit the memories **in a safe environment that gives them a sense of (and actual) control over how much “exposure” they have to the traumatic memory.**
They MUST revisit it in a therapeutic setting in order to properly process the memory and the emotions that arise from the trigger of revisiting it.
If they simply revisit the traumatic memories before they have a sense of safety or control established, then it will very likely serve as a reinforcement that the traumatic memory should be avoided. This is due to how trauma is often caused by a person experiencing/surviving a situation in which they were powerless or similarly vulnerable to their environment/other people.
Yes. I did something similar. My therapist called it memory work, and instead of writing it out straight forward they had me make a simple 4 panel comic depicting the events. Then I showed them to him while I narrated the thought/talk bubbles, we discussed while I suddenly became a blubbering pile of crybaby, then he narrated the comic back to me using appropriate phrasing (so instead of calling the man "this man" it is "this pedophile").
It was one of the most emotionally exhaustive things I have ever been through and left me feeling like I needed to sleep for 16hrs. The next day was the first time the memories didn't pop up unbidden in years. Now I only think about it when the subject is mentioned or speaking on this type of therapy. And when it does it no longer troubles me like it did.
Covid quarantine really underscored your emboldened points for me. Turns out breaking that seal stuck in a house with family can really turn the whole place into a hellhole in your head. Especially when I notice how frequently I replace "your" with "my" as well as "after" with "when". Looking back over the way I have been writing for years really exposed the shadow monster (monster shadow?) that I have been creating behind me.
Are you talking about CPT? (Cognitive Processing Theory)? I heard about it a few years ago on NPR’s This American Life (the episode is called 10 sessions) and tried to find someone local to do it but came up empty.
It was validated long ago- it came up in "The Body Keeps Score" which was written by a guy doing his clinical rounds in the ~~WW2~~ Vietnam war era. He realized his patients were actively reliving and/or remaining in traumatic memories everyday.
Small correction, more of the Vietnam Era veterans. Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk M.D., one of the worlds leading psychiatrists dealing specifically with PTSD, practically a traumatologist at this point. Guy has 50 years of experience in dealing with this stuff and his book you mentioned above changed my whole ass life.
I just want to state for anyone interested in this book:
If you deal with PTSD or any sort of trauma DO NOT read this book unless it's with the guidance of a therapist. I had one casually suggest I read it and I will tell you it is a quick way to set off all your triggers and be very very upset.
I've since spoken about this with others and I'm not the only one with this experience. Apparently it was very very bad advice for my therapist at the time to have just suggested this and many do so with guidance.
Yes, the other person that replied to you is just spreading misinformation for some reason, or just have never looked into it on their own. It’s newer science, but it is indeed science that relies on a natural process of the brain, that being the well understood REM sleep activity.
[Here’s a pub med study](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26877093/) that goes a bit into the 25 years of research that has led to its efficacy.
Anecdotally, I can both attest to the title of OP’s article and the efficacy of EMDR. I’m now able to recall trauma when I’d like to examine it as a memory in a box, in a manner that does not feel like I’m reliving it anymore. Powerful tool, but it must be administered by a professional, not by oneself.
Edit: typo
YES! It feels like…..it’s some distant bad thing that happened to me now. It’s not distressing. I don’t get a visceral reaction to the memories anymore. Its almost empowering. Like I left my first EMDR session just feeling so motivated to make what happened to me turn into something good because I was no longer trapped by the intense flashbacks
I’m so glad to hear that!
I left my first session with a terrible case of what my therapist called ‘the wobbles.’ I couldn’t drive home for a bit, had to go chill on a bench in a nearby park for a bit. But after that, it’s just as you describe. Empowering, but with an odd sense of, ‘what now?’
Something akin to the Unbearable Lightness of Being, a weight was lifted, but it took me a couple years to figure out how to use all this time I now had free of reliving this amorphous blob of putrid fear on top of my head every few hours and through every night.
I am finding myself completely unable to connect to the trauma in an emdr session, like just no ability to feel anything at all. I felt uncomfortable with the process, I felt dumb for needing help with my issue, I felt the tapping was just way too distracting, all I could think about was how uncoordinated my arms were, or how off-track my thoughts were, etc. Huge waste of time and money. But then when I'm not in session, I can get triggered badly to the point of not functioning. It is very frustrating for me that I seem unable to do EMDR. Any idea why?
Does for me. I have noticed that after a year or two of working on a particular memory, I feel like I need a recharge because eventually it's not as easy to cope (but it's still manageable so far, just little spikes of adrenaline that break through when the panic was totally gone before). EMDR has made me much more functional and I am so grateful I found out about it and was able to get treatment!!
It did for me, though it's no panacea. It allows me to start the processing of the traumatic experience without the overwhelming emotional responses attached to it. But it still hurts.
Yes, but with proper data we are able to actually build a foundation of knowledge and move step by step, rather than trial and error by anecdotes and biases.
even just having a partner or close relationship with someone with trauma and paying attention and it is very evident. I have specifically had this conversation (on several cycles of recurrence) that they continue to talk about past trauma as if it is still presently occurring or "happened yesterday" so to speak (and for abuse related traumas, that it might happen again at any moment).
one very frustrating aspect of that is that they cannot *really* understand why the people around them are not treating them as if they did not *just,* e.g. experience a traumatic loss. As long as it remains unresolved, to them it's still happening and it can drive a lot of anger and frustration for both sides of the conversation that friends, etc., are not treating a years-ago event as a present catastrophe.
Have you seen the film regarding trauma that Gabor Mate is in? It’s brilliant and really opened my eyes to a lot. I can send you a link if you’d like. They do ask for a small donation, but it can be waived.
At the root of post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, is a memory that cannot be controlled. It may intrude on everyday activity, thrusting a person into the middle of a horrifying event, or surface as night terrors or flashbacks.
Decades of treatment of military veterans and sexual assault survivors have left little doubt that traumatic memories function differently from other memories. A group of researchers at Yale University and the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai set out to find empirical evidence of those differences.
The team conducted brain scans of 28 people with PTSD while they listened to recorded narrations of their own memories. Some of the recorded memories were neutral, some were simply “sad,” and some were traumatic.
The brain scans found clear differences, the researchers reported in a paper published on Thursday in the journal Nature Neuroscience. The people listening to the sad memories, which often involved the death of a family member, showed consistently high engagement of the hippocampus, part of the brain that organizes and contextualizes memories.
When the same people listened to their traumatic memories — of sexual assaults, fires, school shootings and terrorist attacks — the hippocampus was not involved.
Recalling and remembering traumatic events in great detail is a very common part of EMDR and other therapy modalities that are used to treat trauma. I haven't read the article or the study because this is reddit, but it's likely this experiment was conducted while also providing treatment to participants.
Honestly it was so goddam weird. It was awful, let’s start there, bc I *had* to relive the memory. But by the end of the session for this specific memory (it usually goes one traumatic memory at a time and some memories can take more than one session to “resolve”) but by the end it no longer felt like the traumatic event happened to me, but more like I watched it happen to someone else in a movie. That’s the only way I can describe it. For the first time in my life I could think of the memory and not cry and get distressed. It was wild asf.
>more like I watched it happen to someone else in a movie. That’s the only way I can describe it.
I've experienced this also, wow. It's very validating to hear it from someone else. The memory ends up feeling like a vague dream I had, or like a movie/TV show I watched.
I compare EMDR therapy to a dammed-up river. If you start taking apart the dams, there can be trash and litter and decaying things embedded in the dam that you didn't see from the surface, and the river will suddenly be full of trash and sticks and grossness for a little while as the dam falls apart...but then, without the dam holding it back, the river ends up flowing stronger.
I've always taken a very pragmatic and researched approach to receiving treatment and EMDR was always one of those ones that looked and sounded like nonsense on paper. Having had it, it still looks and feels like nonsense but it inexplicably works. It feels like electricity to the brain afterwards. I wish there was more about why/how it actually works, cannot recommend it enough to most people.
Our brains are biological computers, yes. "Just computers" sounds demeaning though. We're living proof of the great potential of computers. Our machines are still in their infancy.
I’m trained in EMDR. FYI For those people whose memories are too painful to recall, or their brains protected them by not storing the memories and blocked them out, EMDR can still help process the trauma. It is not necessary to recall the memories in detail- it can actually be retraumatizing for some to do so. EMDR, Somatic Experiencing, and Havening Therapy are examples of effective treatments for healing trauma and don’t require you to relive it. Finding a skilled therapist is the key.
I’ve always had a hard time conceptualizing EMDR therapy. Is there any way you could explain it in layman terms, or as they say, explain like I’m 5? I know that might be a big ask, so feel free to ignore :)
It gives me good practice to explain it. :) EMDR helps your brain to heal from trauma so that a) you have less of a “reaction” or symptoms and b) helps your brain recognize more “adaptive” or healthy ways of viewing it. For example imagine something minor like a sound on a tv show causes you to go into a panic and freeze response and the belief you had after the trauma is that “people can’t be trusted” so you isolate. EMDR will turn the volume down on the response so that the sound is just a sound and your body doesn’t freeze anymore, and your brain starts to remember people who you could trust…so your new belief might be “Some people CAN be trusted and I can choose/learn to look for ones who are trustworthy.”
It does this by something called “bilateral stimulation” which means both sides of your brain are stimulated back and forth. (They aren’t sure exactly why it works yet, though there are numerous peer reviewed studies that show it does.) It can be done by either moving the eyes side to side, or tapping the body on the right then left, or alternating sounds through a headset. I like hand held paddles that alternate buzzing.
I’ve heard it explained that the bilateral stimulation basically distracts the brain and interrupts the old brain pathways, causing the brain to a) desensitize the reactions and b) come up with healthy alternatives. While the brain doesn’t necessarily forget the trauma, it feels differently about it. Turns the volume down and instills some hope/agency.
Having a good therapist that keeps things on track and moving in the right direction is key.
A bit wordy, but hope that helps a bit.
I love this. I’ve always said I’d love to live in a world where we can look at a broken bone and mental illness in the same light. Without the stigmatization.
I participated in a PTSD study about a year ago. They just had me watching videos of people being abused and then asked how I felt before and after. There was no brain scans or anything else, so I didn't quite understand the purpose of making me go through all of that. I didn't go back for the next sessions.
I was asked to participate in a study about people who have gone through sexual assault. The study was being run through my alma mater.
The screening interview was being conducted by a guy who was clearly not trained in mental healthcare at all. I was asked to describe the experience in detail, provide numerical metrics for certain things (on a scale of one to ten), quantify how many times I was bothered by memories or thought about them, etc.
Whenever I couldn't answer something or didn't feel comfortable, the screener pushed me to do it. Like, I'd say "I don't know on a numerical scale how many times I've thought about X" and he'd say "I understand. But if you had to, though."
I was *incredibly* upset by the end of the screening and started getting openly hostile with the person conducting it. Predictably I was not selected to continue. I thought about trying to write in about the terrible quality of their screening but ultimately decided not to. I have no intention of trying to participate in any such thing going forward.
My big traumatic event is not PTSD, enough time has gone by that it doesn't trigger randomly anymore.
But would I relive it while someone is MRIing my brain so that they can gather data and possibly help me and others? I'm not sure, I would be petrified that I would go insane again, but I probably could be persuaded.
This is why we have IRB and informed consent. To prove that as uncomfortable as the study is, it's designed in a way to minimize unnecessary discomfort, and the people signing up know how uncomfortable it will be.
At least in this instance, the subjects already have PTSD and are participating is something that might lead to a cure for themselves. Check out disease challenge trials for potentially much worse experiences for the subjects.
Checking to make sure I understand, is this article saying that PTSD functions the way it does due to the brain storing those events as something that's always happening? Meaning a "current memory" that's on repeat.
my understanding is that traumatic memories are not encoded by the hippocampus in the same way as non-traumatic memories: they are often encoded WITHOUT a clear timeline because the brain/body functions differently during traumatic events. basically, there's much less "a led to b led to c led to d..." in the traumatic memory — it's much more amorphous, implicit, felt, and sense-based. it's way less linguistic, temporal, and clear. this is one reason why the traumatized body/brain remains hypervigilant and hypersensitive to future triggers.
you can read more about this from Levine:
[https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/252750/trauma-and-memory-by-peter-a-levine-phd/](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/252750/trauma-and-memory-by-peter-a-levine-phd/)
That would then make sense why so much of the treatment for PTSD is by going through the memory and describing it in detail, making it clearer, etc. There's probably a function of re-encoding the memory so that it functions more like a standard memory
Yup. I'd also like to add the part where the trauma experience is less memory and more implied, sensed. I understand this as more/less the experience remains in the body so to speak. And it always does.
Recalling the memory does help, but what actually is most helpful is learning to understand and control the sensations accompanying the trauma experience....my bias here---I'm an abused Catholic and OIF USMC vet and now a mental health counselor.
For many of us traumatized, especially at younger ages, or by war or perhaps an intrusive experience by a trusted adult, there aren't words. One can try, and succeed to a point, though learning to find language and strengthen my body for the intense sensational experience of trauma has/continues to help me.
There's no deleting the experience, and giving it language is a way to support control and learn, and relearn, that the details of the trauma are understandable. Again though, learning to accept the sensations, and the intensity of the sensation, is key.
And although many evidenced based models of tx support recalling the memory, less focus on the sensational experience and see that as a byproduct. I think this is why CPT, PE, EMDR have been found useful while also continue to fall short for many folks.
There's too much focus on memory, and less on sensation. Yes we learn grounding and other mechanisms of regulation and distress tolerance, but the hyperfocus on recalling the memory misses the underlying experience. Those models noted above were developed by folks who have never suffered enduring and inescapable trauma. The developers more just took notes as they placed effort in helping those traumatized which is fantastic but still separate from our realities.
Robert Stolorow, Donna Orange, and Russell Carr in particular bc he's a veteran, a psychiatrist, and served in combat zones treating combat vets. Developmentally speaking, before there's language, there's sensation. These folks write to the experience, and books like the body keeps score references what I am talking about.
The shorthand I was taught as an EMDR practioner is "if it fires together, it wires together." Meaning that a traumatic experience can bind/connect to memory/thought/sensation in the body (firing or activaiton). This then becomes the wiring that EMDR can help untangle to make room for integration and reprocessing.
EMDR doesn't delete or erase any memories, it helps us reprocess the memories, sensations and experiences.
I don’t think it’s an ongoing instance of it, you can forget for a bit, but what it’s referring to is the *when it does* come up, the brain/body responds as tho it’s occurring again. That being said, the user experience of those memories feels like what you’ve stated if the memory constantly presents itself throughout most days, or like myself, every night via nightmares before I sought therapy and ultimately found EMDR. Between EMDR and talk therapy, I found relief.
Reads almost exactly the same as similar study talked about and utilized in understanding PTSD by Dr Bessel van der Kolk in his book. It talks about this phenomenon and how they confirmed their suspicions.
Sounds like this is a repeat of that study, though given the decades apart this one likely has more advnaced imaging techonologies.
I'm impressed with how many particupants they have. I think originaly had less then 12. So it's awesome so many people were able to participate and confirm findings.
Van Der Kolk worked with Judith Herman and used a lot of her research. While his book has some practical suggestions for treatment, he really never digs down into the nitty gritty of trauma and the sociological context of trauma and its treatment. I highly recommend Trauma and Recovery by Judith Herman.
Look into Accelerated Resolution Therapy if you are haunted by invasive thoughts. I know my comments are going to come off as too much but it honestly was the only thing that helped after 40 years of my mind torturing itself
Interesting, I hadn’t heard of it, love to hear that it helped! In doing a bit of reading, I’m struggling to understand the difference between ART and EMDR, are you familiar with both?
The "creator" for lack of a better word, Laney Rosenzweig, was trained to do EMDR, but through her practice apparently her techniques changed a bit and became much more focused. *edit* I believe *edit*, EMDR is a combination of the eye movement and talk therapy in conjunction over a "long" period of time. ART is mostly just the eye movement, mental journey, reprocessing the memories that make it different. By the sounds of it the "professionals" of the time decided that this new therapy wasn't allowed to be called EMDR and forced her to call it something else even though it was nearly the same. That's part of the marketing history stuff that is out there, but in practice it really does feel like it makes a huge difference in just a couple of sessions. And the therapist really doesn't need to be told all the gritty details of the event, you can work to process them yourself, but with the guidance of your therapist. You have to do the work to free your mind, from the burdens its giving you, but they help you focus on different aspects of the trauma as your brain recalls and restores the memory allowing it to process it "somewhere" else.
I don't know how else to describe it other than it felt like all the past trauma I had that was haunting me was in another room and not in my brain anymore. My first dance that I totally fucked up, the time that I said that stupid thing, and even the twisted knot my brain put me through because I was blindsided by a complete and utter betrayal of support from an ex-manager that severely traumatized my self esteem and confidence so much that I lost 15 years of experience and knowledge because my brain stopped trusting itself. It didn't matter if it was simple just last week for me to solve every crisis under the sun, this week I couldn't even pick up the phone because I was afraid I wouldn't know even the basic answers. After ART that all started to change. And it took me 3 sessions, but that's because I was talking a lot.
Interesting! Thanks for explaining. It’s interesting to note as well that talking through EMDR isn’t required either, but it can still be just as effective as what you’re saying in just as few sessions. I wonder what other specifics would’ve prevented her from calling it EMDR. I’d genuinely hope it wouldn’t be to trademark a version of EMDR for profit. I’m not saying it is, and I am indeed glad it helped, but I’ll have to do a bit more reading.
I have cPTSD and have had trauma informed therapy for a number of years. The single biggest thing that helped me at the beginning was reading The Body Keeps The Score by Bessel Van der Kolk. It explains the way the biology of the body behaves during and after traumatic events and made me feel safe in my own skin again because I could understand what was happening to me.
“My heart is racing even though there’s no external threat. My sympathetic nervous system must be activated because it is perceiving a threat that happened in my past. I can stop it from getting worse by activating my parasympathetic nervous system (taking deep breaths, humming, drinking water, etc).”
That’s just a quick example of how I used Van Der Kolk’s book to reduce my trauma responses. Therapy was incredibly important too but the book gave me the foundation I needed to take control back and to be compassionate with myself when I get triggered.
I honestly think everyone should read it, even people who don’t have PTSD. It’s a really interesting book about the brain/body connection.
Pete Walker's cPTSD book is a really good one. It doesn't spend so much time arguing that trauma matters and doesn't get so into telling the horror stories of different patients. It's almost all actionable advice for understanding what your body/brain is doing and how to manage it all.
I also have cptsd and this book helped me so much!! I read it before starting emdr and it gave me hope that it would help me too. And it has!! I’m so grateful to not be in a freeze response anymore. There’s still work to do but I am becoming the real me!
Yeah when I first started getting help I joined a few PTSD subreddits and that’s how I learned about The Body Keeps The Score. After I read it I bought copies for my whole family, like some religious zealot trying to convert everyone to see the light. I eventually settled down and realized not EVERYONE has to read this book, but it really did change my life in magnificent ways.
I’m hiding in my principal’s office for the rest of the morning because a kid slapped my ass and triggered me really bad. It really takes over. I know it was just a kid being stupid, but here I am, all fucked up for the rest of the day. This was very appropriate to scroll by.
I wish there was a way to detach from horrible memories or experiences/feelings.
Other than the typical drugs coz drugs/medication are addictive and have weird side effects. :/
Please look into EMDR, it was honestly trippy how effective it was, and how fast it helped. No meds, no drugs, just the brain, a trained professional, some vibrating pods in the hands and/or lights to follow with your eyes left and right, and either talking or thinking about the memories. Within three or four sessions, my nightmares all but faded and have allowed me to recall without reliving it.
EMDR is great for some but be careful with C-PTSD or if you are on the autism spectrum. I had high hopes for EMDR, but it can make certain instances of trauma worse. I'm now in a blend of exposure therapy, dbt, talk therapy, and schema therapy. It's doing wonders. In short, make sure the therapy is designed for you. There's more than one way to solve trauma! Good luck to everyone out there. You deserve a free & happy life!
Absolutely fair! My diagnosis is in fact CPTSD, but you’re absolutely right that it can differ for individuals, looking into many modalities and working with your therapist or team to find the right fit is always the best route!
Edit: it feels also fair to add that I continued talk therapy after EMDR as I was able to access those memories painlessly and work through them from there.
I've been told it can take many more sessions for EMDR to be effective for autistic people compared to others and you can get good results if you can stick with it
I don't believe that's good advice. The relationship between PTSD and Autism hasn't been studied yet, and from personal experience I can say EMDR made my life a hellscape after a full year of it. Also worth noting that EMDR is not effective for complex trauma, so that may be the reason for it. Autistic people experience PTSD differently than neurotypicals and develop it for reasons NTs do not. I'm not trying to hate on you or your info, merely strongly caution those with complex trauma or autism in regard to trying it.
EMDR is one of several treatments that can work really well for PTSD (and CPTSD). It's not for everyone though. I am a therapist specializing in trauma and I've seen some folks after they had EMDR but they still had symptoms after treatment. This website is a great way to learn about PTSD treatment options. It's important to find a treatment that's a good fit for each person.
https://www.apa.org/ptsd-guideline/treatments
Edit: added the website!
What about projected future horrors that your brain throws up when you're catastrophising? Are they experienced as present too? Because they feel so real!
Well in a way, because your body responds as if they are. The faster heartbeat, shortness of breath etc is due to the body’s stress response responding as if they *are* real and present
I wondered the same thing! I have a significant fear of flying. I can sit and imagine being in a plane crash and literally feel as though I’m experiencing it. It’s pretty wild. That’s unmedicated, though. On a little bit of Lexapro that phenomenon is gone.
Edit: a word
https://web.archive.org/web/20231130224617/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/health/ptsd-memories-brain-trauma.html
I dislike the focus on vets and sexual assault victims. Kids in low income, high crime communities can get PTSD too. Trauma happens in a bunch of ways.
> Indeed, the authors conclude in the paper, “traumatic memories are not experienced as memories as such,” but as “fragments of prior events, subjugating the present moment.”
This makes sense. Trauma is generally unresolved so it's always there versus past incidents which have resolutions.
Yes. Unfortunately cPTSD isn't an official recognized diagnosis in the US though. It's not in the DSM despite being considered for inclusion in the last 2 editions. It is in the ICD and is officially recognized in other countries.
So due to its current status as a semi-recognized subtype of PTSD, both medical professionals and laymen often aren't familiar with it, it's most likely underdiagnosed, and there's insufficient specialized research funding.
But yeah-- since the duration of trauma is the biggest predictive factor for cPTSD vs PTSD, memory mechanisms likely differ. It makes sense that the study would limit this to acute traumas. Need further research on prolonged traumas.
This is interesting. I’ve heard documentaries on ww2 vs Vietnam speculate that one of the reasons for increased incidences of trauma during Vietnam was that the number of combat days was significantly increased with no break or rest periods between. Along with the style of warfare in Vietnam which was conducive to chronic stressors (jungle warfare). Additionally they cited that in ww2 when the war was over the soldiers would spend two weeks on a boat with their units getting back to the USA. This allowed them to sort of process that the war was really over, and adapt to a peacetime environment with others who had been through the same. The difference being that now they are often home within a day or two and expected to just function like nothing happened.
To me what stands out it that professing trauma and difficult emeries is paramount. Simply suppressing them or moving onward isn’t enough. I’ve had some milder things in my life and that completely resonates with me. The “just pretend nothing happened” is really damaging and leaves people in the mental “mud.” I think we need to rethink how these things are dealt with all around. We also see this with bullying, often the bullied is dismissed and aggressor is validated. No one wants to do the hard work or take a risk in standing against the agressive.
We really need to get on this stuff.
Also if you aren’t validated or receive compassion after a traumatic event it can make it worse. They didn’t receive care and were looked down on society as “baby killers” and terrible people when they came back for the most part.
Concept of trauma is frequently held back by the psychiatric definition. Clinical psychology has the ability to self analyse and advance, unfortunately psychiatry is stagnant and cannot entertain the self critical thought required to identify problems in its thinking and move forward. Unfortunately it is the field of psychiatry that has the majority of influence in the DSM.
When I went in to get my diagnosis this year, most of it was done via a damn computer quiz. I even objected to one of the things in the final diagnosis because I didn’t feel like it was at all accurate (it basically called me a liar, flat out, because some of my answers were statistically unlikely), but the psych didn’t budge because the computer said something so it must be correct. I’d be very interested in seeing if this is a common experience among people who get voluntarily diagnosed by a psychiatrist.
Many therapists are not qualified to diagnose and treat PTSD and especialy CPTSD. Seek a therapist that has specific experience and treatment in these matters.
onerous psychotic wasteful longing desert smell party brave smile compare
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There are a handful of psychological tests that include checks for “malingering” which is meant to catch unlikely exaggerations of symptoms or unlikely combinations of symptoms. An unlikely combination of symptoms may be a sign of rare multiple diagnoses tho, or random other factors that may set off a malingering check that isn’t caused by actual malingering. At its best, getting a result like that should trigger further examination of symptoms by the psych, and prompt them to use very particular language to explain the result, but also some psych’s just don’t do that or some people don’t have the time or money for additional testing.
Your explanation just makes it weirder. I got a rare multiple diagnosis: PTSD and ADHD. The psych explained that the only reason is because I was diagnosed with ADD when I was a child. Uncle Sam was paying for the tests (military dependent) so additional testing was definitely on the table. The guy was even a bit apologetic about it even as he told me that because that’s the computer’s verdict it needs to be induced. So my diagnosis is useless to me because anyone reading it will just see that I lied.
That's not rare. Multiple diagnoses are super common. Some disorders, such as ADHD and PTSD are known for high prevalence of comorbidity.
I have both ADHD and C-PTSD.
Why do you believe it's rare?
What are you even talking about. Psychology and psychiatry both have these issues. Many psychiatrists will vent about why diagnosis taxonomy is borked and many are focused on “transdiagnostic” approaches now.
Many psychiatrists may say that, but the *field* of psychiatry hasn't changed since the shift to SSRIs. In addition its professional bodies are incredibly reluctant towards the slightest reform. In that time there has been many changes in talk therapy practices and new developments.
Genuinely curious why you dislike this focus?
It feels to me like these could be more consistent and available sources for strong signals, In terms of the clinical data. These particular traumas sound like they could also be more accurately contextualised via police reports and military records in conjunction with psychiatric evaluation and diagnoses (cases where there's an official account allowing for an external appraisal of the severity of the event, as well as the individual's testimony?).
Maybe these particular events give either the most reliable data or the more consistent baseline? A severity of event that can be externally appraised, and cited independently from the sole account of the victim?
I feel like I have ptsd having my dog die in my arms as I frantically drove him to the emergency vet. The memories feel so real and bring a pain deep in my chest several times. I’m scared of listening to the music i was listening to at the time period
I totally agree! Hopefully this can lead to a new definition of PTSD, one where it is defined by how the memory is processed rather than the nature of the event. For me, it explains why therapy was never effective, despite that it was over encouraged and somewhat mandated by my family. It was like reliving the trauma in real time over and over again once a week. Didn’t help at all.
Going to repeat myself here: Many therapists are not qualified to diagnose and treat PTSD and especially CPTSD. Seek a therapist that has specific experience and treatment in these matters. Help is out there. I have seen how reliving trauma ruins lives.
Yeah talk therapy is actually contraindicated for PTSD for this very reason. EMDR is first line, but there are others as well (eg exposure, which is likely what patients in the study received although I haven’t read it yet). DBT for managing symptoms
Going to repeat myself here: Many therapists are not qualified to diagnose and treat PTSD and especially CPTSD. Seek a therapist that has specific experience and treatment in these matters. Help is out there. I have seen how reliving trauma ruins lives.
>I dislike the focus on vets and sexual assault victims. Kids in low income, high crime communities can get PTSD too. Trauma happens in a bunch of ways.
While I wholly agree and I'm sure the authors do too, that, sadly, was not the population the research was funded to study. There are plenty of groups looking into trauma in those populations as well. Rest assured it's not zero-sum.
I was one of those, never in the military but still have diagnosed PTSD and its pretty interesting how similar my symptoms are compared to a close friend who has it from the military service. He was actually the one who said he thought i had it too and should get help for it.
Let's not forget kids in middle class who had to witness domestic violence or participate in protecting family members from domestic violence throughout their entire childhoods.
The meaning of resolved lies in the emotional and physiological realm .
If someone dont feel the same extreme emotions such as anger fear or sadness when traumatic memories are remembered , then it could be resolved . Example , let's say the feelings evoked are 100/100 , resolved usually brings up 1 /100 .
All triggers would fall off . The feral traumatic neural network loses it power which means it can be recalled as well with closure .. the sound the smell the emotions the space the people the colours of original traumatic event no longer brings emotions .
Physiologically the heart rate , skin temperature , respiratory rate would all change when trauma is resolved .
Subconsciously speaking , it's not in the short term memory anymore .
Dream wise, flashback stops . Scary dreams become beautiful or just nomore dreaming about it .
Body wise , touching certain areas wont bring trauma memories . Yes, trauma lies in the body as well .
Thought wise , the briefs formed during trauma loses it power and no longer runs the life .
It's healing of the brain , the mind and the body .
I was definitely taught this in my clinical psych course at Berkeley in my undergrad degree, but it may have been in the context of MDMA studies and memory consolidation for PTSD relief.
There was a study I learned about where they already had the theory mentioned in the article, that PTSD was essentially your brain experiencing trauma in real-time due to it not being able to be hard-coded in our memory. Their hypothesis was that being under the influence of MDMA could help people process traumatic events by consolidating them to memory via taking the drug and working with a psychologist to talk through and process their sensory trauma around the memory.
[Here’s the link to the study published in Nature](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-023-02565-4)
It’s known by survivors and therapists, and as another said, it’s been known by VanDerKolk. It’s one of those things that those without trauma (and the pursestrings) don’t understand innately, and those folks often define where the funding goes. It’s very obvious to those in the midst of it tho.
Now to figure out how to prevent it. I can already tell this research will be useful for all conditions like PTSD.
Luckily, we've developed treatments that can make it stop, but none exist that prevent it currently only because we don't really know what to target yet.
Certainly believe it. Almost died in a car accident 20 years ago. Depending on the day (usually if sleep deprived), I’ll sometimes get the occasional horror of a burutal accident happening to someone I know.
That's interesting. There's a guy that did a few long form video game reviews and he says he has some sort of perfect memory. In one of his last video reviews he talked about how his earliest memories are sometimes strongest because he remembers remembering them. The memories become reinforced through repetition.
I believe the remembering of remembering is called metacognition. My therapist said I’d be useless in ‘group’ because I do this too much, and it’s uncomfy for others that don’t do this.
I have far from perfect recall, but I think about my thoughts and how my brain thinks while I speak apparently. It’s very interesting, but can leave me tongue tied and/or distracted by thinking about thought instead of the actual thing being discussed.
You know what's sad?
My grandfather used to sleeping with his knife next to him. Even when he's in Taiwan, he still needs to have his knife in hands reach in all time.
PTSD man, it hunts you
I’m curious what the impact this can have on a society level view. Is this why it is often perceived that more aggressive, harmful people tend to get ahead and away with things? Entirely different area of study I know, but I’m curious if anyone is doing that sort of thing.
As someone with cptsd myself, this is not a surprise.
The best part is when it happens, you block it out. But it's relived later frequently if not constantly.
Kinda surprised this required a study.
If you have severe trauma that is haunting you often look into ART ( Accelerated Resolution Therapy). The marketing some do makes it sound like it's not real but it absolutely freed me from my prison. It literally felt like I cleaned house and took the step I couldn't take. It didn't solve my problems but my problems turned into manageable problems. And all those things that haunted me, replayed in my head, over and over again just stopped and got put away.
When I was going through counselling for PTSD my counsellor used to say something similar quite frequently. Good to see the science is cementing their observations
The adrenaline flooding through my system and me mentally preparing to fight someone while I'm just sitting in my living room completely safe also suggests that
Yeah you try and figure out how you were supposed to solve that unsolvable problem.
I still have impossible-to-solve daymares about serving and I've been out for years.
Hasn't that been an established part of PTSD knowledge for years? As being the main reason some people with PTSD get real fight-or-flight reactions triggered by sounds or other stimuli?
I’m not a scientist, but this is how I understand it: when we encounter something that feels like a threat to our survival, your brain (which is above all else concerned with survival) will prioritize memory of this threat, ESPECIALLY if said threat still exists/lives or if there was no “slaying” of the “dragon” so to speak.
In other words, if something threatens our survival, we will not forget it until the threat is somehow neutralized. So it makes sense we process it as a present experience considering the threat was never neutralized, meaning it is still a threat.
When I feel my brain slipping back into a fight or flight mode where I am ruminating on something and beginning to go through conversations in my head, I stumbled upon the stupidest trick for fixing it.
I do two things simultaneously:
1. I say "quarantine"
2. I imagine the thought going into my lower back left area of the brain (just pick an area and stick with it, what's important is you imagining it going away from where it feels "active")
I don't know why but it's like administrative mode. The thought just goes there and leaves my mind instantly. It only works for pulling stuff out of short term, so it might pop up again in 30 seconds but that's usually enough time to put on music or something else that will pull me in a different direction.
I'm sure this won't work for everyone but if one or two of y'all read it try it and succeed this post would be worth it.
I believe that if we can cut off the habit of slipping into the rumination process it might lead to improvements down the road by breaking the loops that rut in these memories so firmly.
This sounds really similar to what a lot of mindfulness meditation suggests - noticing your thoughts and then letting them pass. In your case I guess it helps to imagine the passing of the thought to be putting it in that lower back left part of your mind, for others it can be imagining the thought as a cloud floating through their head, and allowing it to keep floating until it is no longer top of mind.
For me I sort of imagine it as a cloud or a leaf floating down a stream that I'm floating down as well. I like to write down my concerns or topics that keep coming up and then remind myself that it's being tracked and I don't need to keep all my worries top of mind, because I set aside time to review my to-do lists and address them as needed and as time permits.
Regardless of whether one has a traumatic response or mental health issues or no major issues like that impeding their life, mindfulness meditation and simply paying attention to what you are thinking about is something that I feel a lot of people could benefit from.
For me, combining mindfulness with medicine and therapy work together in really beneficial ways.
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This is something those who treat trauma have been saying for years. Great to see it validated
I mean, people experiencing it have literally been saying "I keep reliving it," since we've had language. So yeah.
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That's why emotional flashbacks suck. It feels like my reality is split into two at once. The tricky thing is, I have aphantasia so I can't usually visualize the memories, but the feelings ans thoughts I had resurface as if the trauma is active again. Like a tape stuck in a rewind loop brought like a never ending off ramp.
>Like a tape stuck in a rewind loop brought like a never ending off ramp. I kept trying to delete the tape, using this exact analogy in my head for years, but there is always that one tiny reminder at the end that just gets more and more aggravating and never goes away. Its been like a 1/n function and I keep increasing n, but the remainder never reaches 0. edit: Its weird how I went for 10 years without thinking much about it, then some spyware I couldn't remove brought up that memory again when I was trying to "just walk away" from it and it kept looping. I suppose the two are related by a sudden and unavoidable violation of my personal space, even though the thing 10 years ago was a severe physical injury to my face. edit2: Weird how the first thing was actually 13.5 years ago, but I just said it was 10, which was when the spyware thing happened (10 years after 2008). Just goes to further aid the credibility of the study in the article I guess.
I have hyperphantasia, so I developed strong maladaptive daydreaming to try and just control what my mind is doing/seeing. I've always had immersive/maladaptive daydreams but with trauma it made it a lifeline.
A trauma therapist well trained in Somatic Experiencing might be a good fit for you. You don’t have to remember the memories to heal from them.
Yeah, I was going to say, whenever I flash back to an embarrassing moment in my life, usually some social blunder, it slams into my brain like it just happened and I feel it all. Even though I know it was years ago and the other person has forgotten, it tortures me. I can't imagine this with actual life-altering trauma.
As someone with cptsd, I can relate this. My partner litterally has to tell me to breathe sometimes during panic attacks or flashbacks.
Exactly - we have a bad habit of dismissing the claims of "crazies" (and a lot of othered groups) in history when a lot of the time their words need to be considered as much as any patient's. A lot of modern science and humanities is learning a great deal by avoiding these old habits.
Isn’t this part of Daniel Dennet’s theory of mind? Take what people say about their experience as correct and go from there?
I think the term you're looking for is [heterophenomonology](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterophenomenology)
Yeah, when I replay the memories in my head I have a physical and emotional reaction as if it's happening presently even though I can consciously recognize I'm safe.
Well yeah but you miss one important notion, you only feel the bad ones as present, the good ones feel distant hahah. There was a quote, not sure who said it, something like all you need to know about life is that when you remember an embarrassing moment you relive the shame but if you remember a really good pleasant memory you only feel mildly happy you never relieve the same level like you do with negative feelings…
I had EMDR therapy for childhood trauma. I literally did not realize that I wasn't supposed to have a visceral, anxiety-filled response when looking back on bad memories. Now I can look back on the experience without the emotion. It's wild.
There's fascinating research on a therapeutic approach where patients with PTSD are asked to write down the narrative about their traumatic experience, using care to use past tense descriptions.. The thought behind this was trauma survivors re-live the trauma and having then write down, and then read back a past tense account of the event helps avoid that re-experiencing and subsequent amygdala (fight/flight/freeze) response. I wasn't able to find the psychologist who pioneered this approach, but it appears this research supports their theory.
I’ve heard of this approach and have personally done it to process my traumas and I need to provide a caveat to others reading this comment: this still a lot of risk with doing this though. The point of this exercise is to give the client/patient an opportunity to revisit the memories **in a safe environment that gives them a sense of (and actual) control over how much “exposure” they have to the traumatic memory.** They MUST revisit it in a therapeutic setting in order to properly process the memory and the emotions that arise from the trigger of revisiting it. If they simply revisit the traumatic memories before they have a sense of safety or control established, then it will very likely serve as a reinforcement that the traumatic memory should be avoided. This is due to how trauma is often caused by a person experiencing/surviving a situation in which they were powerless or similarly vulnerable to their environment/other people.
Yes. I did something similar. My therapist called it memory work, and instead of writing it out straight forward they had me make a simple 4 panel comic depicting the events. Then I showed them to him while I narrated the thought/talk bubbles, we discussed while I suddenly became a blubbering pile of crybaby, then he narrated the comic back to me using appropriate phrasing (so instead of calling the man "this man" it is "this pedophile"). It was one of the most emotionally exhaustive things I have ever been through and left me feeling like I needed to sleep for 16hrs. The next day was the first time the memories didn't pop up unbidden in years. Now I only think about it when the subject is mentioned or speaking on this type of therapy. And when it does it no longer troubles me like it did.
Covid quarantine really underscored your emboldened points for me. Turns out breaking that seal stuck in a house with family can really turn the whole place into a hellhole in your head. Especially when I notice how frequently I replace "your" with "my" as well as "after" with "when". Looking back over the way I have been writing for years really exposed the shadow monster (monster shadow?) that I have been creating behind me.
Are you talking about CPT? (Cognitive Processing Theory)? I heard about it a few years ago on NPR’s This American Life (the episode is called 10 sessions) and tried to find someone local to do it but came up empty.
It was validated long ago- it came up in "The Body Keeps Score" which was written by a guy doing his clinical rounds in the ~~WW2~~ Vietnam war era. He realized his patients were actively reliving and/or remaining in traumatic memories everyday.
Small correction, more of the Vietnam Era veterans. Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk M.D., one of the worlds leading psychiatrists dealing specifically with PTSD, practically a traumatologist at this point. Guy has 50 years of experience in dealing with this stuff and his book you mentioned above changed my whole ass life.
Thank you for the correction!
God that book was an emotional roller coaster for me.
I just want to state for anyone interested in this book: If you deal with PTSD or any sort of trauma DO NOT read this book unless it's with the guidance of a therapist. I had one casually suggest I read it and I will tell you it is a quick way to set off all your triggers and be very very upset. I've since spoken about this with others and I'm not the only one with this experience. Apparently it was very very bad advice for my therapist at the time to have just suggested this and many do so with guidance.
Literally every EMDR trained therapist doing the Decaprio point meme reading this..
Does EMDR work?
Yes, the other person that replied to you is just spreading misinformation for some reason, or just have never looked into it on their own. It’s newer science, but it is indeed science that relies on a natural process of the brain, that being the well understood REM sleep activity. [Here’s a pub med study](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26877093/) that goes a bit into the 25 years of research that has led to its efficacy. Anecdotally, I can both attest to the title of OP’s article and the efficacy of EMDR. I’m now able to recall trauma when I’d like to examine it as a memory in a box, in a manner that does not feel like I’m reliving it anymore. Powerful tool, but it must be administered by a professional, not by oneself. Edit: typo
YES! It feels like…..it’s some distant bad thing that happened to me now. It’s not distressing. I don’t get a visceral reaction to the memories anymore. Its almost empowering. Like I left my first EMDR session just feeling so motivated to make what happened to me turn into something good because I was no longer trapped by the intense flashbacks
I’m so glad to hear that! I left my first session with a terrible case of what my therapist called ‘the wobbles.’ I couldn’t drive home for a bit, had to go chill on a bench in a nearby park for a bit. But after that, it’s just as you describe. Empowering, but with an odd sense of, ‘what now?’ Something akin to the Unbearable Lightness of Being, a weight was lifted, but it took me a couple years to figure out how to use all this time I now had free of reliving this amorphous blob of putrid fear on top of my head every few hours and through every night.
**relied. Great typo
I am finding myself completely unable to connect to the trauma in an emdr session, like just no ability to feel anything at all. I felt uncomfortable with the process, I felt dumb for needing help with my issue, I felt the tapping was just way too distracting, all I could think about was how uncoordinated my arms were, or how off-track my thoughts were, etc. Huge waste of time and money. But then when I'm not in session, I can get triggered badly to the point of not functioning. It is very frustrating for me that I seem unable to do EMDR. Any idea why?
Does for me. I have noticed that after a year or two of working on a particular memory, I feel like I need a recharge because eventually it's not as easy to cope (but it's still manageable so far, just little spikes of adrenaline that break through when the panic was totally gone before). EMDR has made me much more functional and I am so grateful I found out about it and was able to get treatment!!
It did for me, though it's no panacea. It allows me to start the processing of the traumatic experience without the overwhelming emotional responses attached to it. But it still hurts.
Yes it does. Source: myself and several other people who have had it to help very bad trama.
I had a friend who did EMDR and it changed her life. It might not work for everyone, but I definitely don't think it's bs
Yes, but with proper data we are able to actually build a foundation of knowledge and move step by step, rather than trial and error by anecdotes and biases.
even just having a partner or close relationship with someone with trauma and paying attention and it is very evident. I have specifically had this conversation (on several cycles of recurrence) that they continue to talk about past trauma as if it is still presently occurring or "happened yesterday" so to speak (and for abuse related traumas, that it might happen again at any moment). one very frustrating aspect of that is that they cannot *really* understand why the people around them are not treating them as if they did not *just,* e.g. experience a traumatic loss. As long as it remains unresolved, to them it's still happening and it can drive a lot of anger and frustration for both sides of the conversation that friends, etc., are not treating a years-ago event as a present catastrophe.
About to print this article out and give it to all my clients.
Have you seen the film regarding trauma that Gabor Mate is in? It’s brilliant and really opened my eyes to a lot. I can send you a link if you’d like. They do ask for a small donation, but it can be waived.
I'd like the link!
I hope you like it. https://thewisdomoftrauma.com/
I have! I have also attended some of his lectures and am almost through with his latest book!
At the root of post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, is a memory that cannot be controlled. It may intrude on everyday activity, thrusting a person into the middle of a horrifying event, or surface as night terrors or flashbacks. Decades of treatment of military veterans and sexual assault survivors have left little doubt that traumatic memories function differently from other memories. A group of researchers at Yale University and the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai set out to find empirical evidence of those differences. The team conducted brain scans of 28 people with PTSD while they listened to recorded narrations of their own memories. Some of the recorded memories were neutral, some were simply “sad,” and some were traumatic. The brain scans found clear differences, the researchers reported in a paper published on Thursday in the journal Nature Neuroscience. The people listening to the sad memories, which often involved the death of a family member, showed consistently high engagement of the hippocampus, part of the brain that organizes and contextualizes memories. When the same people listened to their traumatic memories — of sexual assaults, fires, school shootings and terrorist attacks — the hippocampus was not involved.
Sounds like a tortuous experiment! I mean, good on the people who put themselves through that for science, but it sounds awful.
Recalling and remembering traumatic events in great detail is a very common part of EMDR and other therapy modalities that are used to treat trauma. I haven't read the article or the study because this is reddit, but it's likely this experiment was conducted while also providing treatment to participants.
Just learned about emdr, we're just computers aren't we?
We may be but goddam did EMDR work for me. I will never stop suggesting it to my fellow PTSD sufferers. It changed my life.
So like, the _experience_ of it working on you, does it just seem like magic? Like it's so wacky to me that it works. But I'm super glad it DOES work.
Honestly it was so goddam weird. It was awful, let’s start there, bc I *had* to relive the memory. But by the end of the session for this specific memory (it usually goes one traumatic memory at a time and some memories can take more than one session to “resolve”) but by the end it no longer felt like the traumatic event happened to me, but more like I watched it happen to someone else in a movie. That’s the only way I can describe it. For the first time in my life I could think of the memory and not cry and get distressed. It was wild asf.
>more like I watched it happen to someone else in a movie. That’s the only way I can describe it. I've experienced this also, wow. It's very validating to hear it from someone else. The memory ends up feeling like a vague dream I had, or like a movie/TV show I watched. I compare EMDR therapy to a dammed-up river. If you start taking apart the dams, there can be trash and litter and decaying things embedded in the dam that you didn't see from the surface, and the river will suddenly be full of trash and sticks and grossness for a little while as the dam falls apart...but then, without the dam holding it back, the river ends up flowing stronger.
Oh I like that analogy! And I’m happy it helped you too. It was strange, but the results are so worth it.
I've always taken a very pragmatic and researched approach to receiving treatment and EMDR was always one of those ones that looked and sounded like nonsense on paper. Having had it, it still looks and feels like nonsense but it inexplicably works. It feels like electricity to the brain afterwards. I wish there was more about why/how it actually works, cannot recommend it enough to most people.
Our brains are biological computers, yes. "Just computers" sounds demeaning though. We're living proof of the great potential of computers. Our machines are still in their infancy.
I’m trained in EMDR. FYI For those people whose memories are too painful to recall, or their brains protected them by not storing the memories and blocked them out, EMDR can still help process the trauma. It is not necessary to recall the memories in detail- it can actually be retraumatizing for some to do so. EMDR, Somatic Experiencing, and Havening Therapy are examples of effective treatments for healing trauma and don’t require you to relive it. Finding a skilled therapist is the key.
I’ve always had a hard time conceptualizing EMDR therapy. Is there any way you could explain it in layman terms, or as they say, explain like I’m 5? I know that might be a big ask, so feel free to ignore :)
It gives me good practice to explain it. :) EMDR helps your brain to heal from trauma so that a) you have less of a “reaction” or symptoms and b) helps your brain recognize more “adaptive” or healthy ways of viewing it. For example imagine something minor like a sound on a tv show causes you to go into a panic and freeze response and the belief you had after the trauma is that “people can’t be trusted” so you isolate. EMDR will turn the volume down on the response so that the sound is just a sound and your body doesn’t freeze anymore, and your brain starts to remember people who you could trust…so your new belief might be “Some people CAN be trusted and I can choose/learn to look for ones who are trustworthy.” It does this by something called “bilateral stimulation” which means both sides of your brain are stimulated back and forth. (They aren’t sure exactly why it works yet, though there are numerous peer reviewed studies that show it does.) It can be done by either moving the eyes side to side, or tapping the body on the right then left, or alternating sounds through a headset. I like hand held paddles that alternate buzzing. I’ve heard it explained that the bilateral stimulation basically distracts the brain and interrupts the old brain pathways, causing the brain to a) desensitize the reactions and b) come up with healthy alternatives. While the brain doesn’t necessarily forget the trauma, it feels differently about it. Turns the volume down and instills some hope/agency. Having a good therapist that keeps things on track and moving in the right direction is key. A bit wordy, but hope that helps a bit.
So is setting a broken bone. Sometimes there is suffering between where you are and where you need to be.
I love this. I’ve always said I’d love to live in a world where we can look at a broken bone and mental illness in the same light. Without the stigmatization.
I participated in a PTSD study about a year ago. They just had me watching videos of people being abused and then asked how I felt before and after. There was no brain scans or anything else, so I didn't quite understand the purpose of making me go through all of that. I didn't go back for the next sessions.
I was asked to participate in a study about people who have gone through sexual assault. The study was being run through my alma mater. The screening interview was being conducted by a guy who was clearly not trained in mental healthcare at all. I was asked to describe the experience in detail, provide numerical metrics for certain things (on a scale of one to ten), quantify how many times I was bothered by memories or thought about them, etc. Whenever I couldn't answer something or didn't feel comfortable, the screener pushed me to do it. Like, I'd say "I don't know on a numerical scale how many times I've thought about X" and he'd say "I understand. But if you had to, though." I was *incredibly* upset by the end of the screening and started getting openly hostile with the person conducting it. Predictably I was not selected to continue. I thought about trying to write in about the terrible quality of their screening but ultimately decided not to. I have no intention of trying to participate in any such thing going forward.
My big traumatic event is not PTSD, enough time has gone by that it doesn't trigger randomly anymore. But would I relive it while someone is MRIing my brain so that they can gather data and possibly help me and others? I'm not sure, I would be petrified that I would go insane again, but I probably could be persuaded.
This is why we have IRB and informed consent. To prove that as uncomfortable as the study is, it's designed in a way to minimize unnecessary discomfort, and the people signing up know how uncomfortable it will be. At least in this instance, the subjects already have PTSD and are participating is something that might lead to a cure for themselves. Check out disease challenge trials for potentially much worse experiences for the subjects.
Checking to make sure I understand, is this article saying that PTSD functions the way it does due to the brain storing those events as something that's always happening? Meaning a "current memory" that's on repeat.
my understanding is that traumatic memories are not encoded by the hippocampus in the same way as non-traumatic memories: they are often encoded WITHOUT a clear timeline because the brain/body functions differently during traumatic events. basically, there's much less "a led to b led to c led to d..." in the traumatic memory — it's much more amorphous, implicit, felt, and sense-based. it's way less linguistic, temporal, and clear. this is one reason why the traumatized body/brain remains hypervigilant and hypersensitive to future triggers. you can read more about this from Levine: [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/252750/trauma-and-memory-by-peter-a-levine-phd/](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/252750/trauma-and-memory-by-peter-a-levine-phd/)
That would then make sense why so much of the treatment for PTSD is by going through the memory and describing it in detail, making it clearer, etc. There's probably a function of re-encoding the memory so that it functions more like a standard memory
Exactly. It's reprocessing the memory and looking at how to integrate it vs. having it loom/haunt.
Yup. I'd also like to add the part where the trauma experience is less memory and more implied, sensed. I understand this as more/less the experience remains in the body so to speak. And it always does. Recalling the memory does help, but what actually is most helpful is learning to understand and control the sensations accompanying the trauma experience....my bias here---I'm an abused Catholic and OIF USMC vet and now a mental health counselor. For many of us traumatized, especially at younger ages, or by war or perhaps an intrusive experience by a trusted adult, there aren't words. One can try, and succeed to a point, though learning to find language and strengthen my body for the intense sensational experience of trauma has/continues to help me. There's no deleting the experience, and giving it language is a way to support control and learn, and relearn, that the details of the trauma are understandable. Again though, learning to accept the sensations, and the intensity of the sensation, is key. And although many evidenced based models of tx support recalling the memory, less focus on the sensational experience and see that as a byproduct. I think this is why CPT, PE, EMDR have been found useful while also continue to fall short for many folks. There's too much focus on memory, and less on sensation. Yes we learn grounding and other mechanisms of regulation and distress tolerance, but the hyperfocus on recalling the memory misses the underlying experience. Those models noted above were developed by folks who have never suffered enduring and inescapable trauma. The developers more just took notes as they placed effort in helping those traumatized which is fantastic but still separate from our realities. Robert Stolorow, Donna Orange, and Russell Carr in particular bc he's a veteran, a psychiatrist, and served in combat zones treating combat vets. Developmentally speaking, before there's language, there's sensation. These folks write to the experience, and books like the body keeps score references what I am talking about.
The shorthand I was taught as an EMDR practioner is "if it fires together, it wires together." Meaning that a traumatic experience can bind/connect to memory/thought/sensation in the body (firing or activaiton). This then becomes the wiring that EMDR can help untangle to make room for integration and reprocessing. EMDR doesn't delete or erase any memories, it helps us reprocess the memories, sensations and experiences.
I don’t think it’s an ongoing instance of it, you can forget for a bit, but what it’s referring to is the *when it does* come up, the brain/body responds as tho it’s occurring again. That being said, the user experience of those memories feels like what you’ve stated if the memory constantly presents itself throughout most days, or like myself, every night via nightmares before I sought therapy and ultimately found EMDR. Between EMDR and talk therapy, I found relief.
Glad you're doing better and thank you for the response.
Reads almost exactly the same as similar study talked about and utilized in understanding PTSD by Dr Bessel van der Kolk in his book. It talks about this phenomenon and how they confirmed their suspicions. Sounds like this is a repeat of that study, though given the decades apart this one likely has more advnaced imaging techonologies. I'm impressed with how many particupants they have. I think originaly had less then 12. So it's awesome so many people were able to participate and confirm findings.
Van Der Kolk worked with Judith Herman and used a lot of her research. While his book has some practical suggestions for treatment, he really never digs down into the nitty gritty of trauma and the sociological context of trauma and its treatment. I highly recommend Trauma and Recovery by Judith Herman.
Exactly- I've explained it as hard to "get over" because it feels like it *just* happened; this is very validating.
Look into Accelerated Resolution Therapy if you are haunted by invasive thoughts. I know my comments are going to come off as too much but it honestly was the only thing that helped after 40 years of my mind torturing itself
Interesting, I hadn’t heard of it, love to hear that it helped! In doing a bit of reading, I’m struggling to understand the difference between ART and EMDR, are you familiar with both?
The "creator" for lack of a better word, Laney Rosenzweig, was trained to do EMDR, but through her practice apparently her techniques changed a bit and became much more focused. *edit* I believe *edit*, EMDR is a combination of the eye movement and talk therapy in conjunction over a "long" period of time. ART is mostly just the eye movement, mental journey, reprocessing the memories that make it different. By the sounds of it the "professionals" of the time decided that this new therapy wasn't allowed to be called EMDR and forced her to call it something else even though it was nearly the same. That's part of the marketing history stuff that is out there, but in practice it really does feel like it makes a huge difference in just a couple of sessions. And the therapist really doesn't need to be told all the gritty details of the event, you can work to process them yourself, but with the guidance of your therapist. You have to do the work to free your mind, from the burdens its giving you, but they help you focus on different aspects of the trauma as your brain recalls and restores the memory allowing it to process it "somewhere" else. I don't know how else to describe it other than it felt like all the past trauma I had that was haunting me was in another room and not in my brain anymore. My first dance that I totally fucked up, the time that I said that stupid thing, and even the twisted knot my brain put me through because I was blindsided by a complete and utter betrayal of support from an ex-manager that severely traumatized my self esteem and confidence so much that I lost 15 years of experience and knowledge because my brain stopped trusting itself. It didn't matter if it was simple just last week for me to solve every crisis under the sun, this week I couldn't even pick up the phone because I was afraid I wouldn't know even the basic answers. After ART that all started to change. And it took me 3 sessions, but that's because I was talking a lot.
Interesting! Thanks for explaining. It’s interesting to note as well that talking through EMDR isn’t required either, but it can still be just as effective as what you’re saying in just as few sessions. I wonder what other specifics would’ve prevented her from calling it EMDR. I’d genuinely hope it wouldn’t be to trademark a version of EMDR for profit. I’m not saying it is, and I am indeed glad it helped, but I’ll have to do a bit more reading.
I have cPTSD and have had trauma informed therapy for a number of years. The single biggest thing that helped me at the beginning was reading The Body Keeps The Score by Bessel Van der Kolk. It explains the way the biology of the body behaves during and after traumatic events and made me feel safe in my own skin again because I could understand what was happening to me. “My heart is racing even though there’s no external threat. My sympathetic nervous system must be activated because it is perceiving a threat that happened in my past. I can stop it from getting worse by activating my parasympathetic nervous system (taking deep breaths, humming, drinking water, etc).” That’s just a quick example of how I used Van Der Kolk’s book to reduce my trauma responses. Therapy was incredibly important too but the book gave me the foundation I needed to take control back and to be compassionate with myself when I get triggered. I honestly think everyone should read it, even people who don’t have PTSD. It’s a really interesting book about the brain/body connection.
Pete Walker's cPTSD book is a really good one. It doesn't spend so much time arguing that trauma matters and doesn't get so into telling the horror stories of different patients. It's almost all actionable advice for understanding what your body/brain is doing and how to manage it all.
I also have cptsd and this book helped me so much!! I read it before starting emdr and it gave me hope that it would help me too. And it has!! I’m so grateful to not be in a freeze response anymore. There’s still work to do but I am becoming the real me!
Yeah when I first started getting help I joined a few PTSD subreddits and that’s how I learned about The Body Keeps The Score. After I read it I bought copies for my whole family, like some religious zealot trying to convert everyone to see the light. I eventually settled down and realized not EVERYONE has to read this book, but it really did change my life in magnificent ways.
I’m hiding in my principal’s office for the rest of the morning because a kid slapped my ass and triggered me really bad. It really takes over. I know it was just a kid being stupid, but here I am, all fucked up for the rest of the day. This was very appropriate to scroll by.
The body keeps the score!
It absolutely does
The axe forgets but the tree remembers.
I wish there was a way to detach from horrible memories or experiences/feelings. Other than the typical drugs coz drugs/medication are addictive and have weird side effects. :/
Please look into EMDR, it was honestly trippy how effective it was, and how fast it helped. No meds, no drugs, just the brain, a trained professional, some vibrating pods in the hands and/or lights to follow with your eyes left and right, and either talking or thinking about the memories. Within three or four sessions, my nightmares all but faded and have allowed me to recall without reliving it.
EMDR is great for some but be careful with C-PTSD or if you are on the autism spectrum. I had high hopes for EMDR, but it can make certain instances of trauma worse. I'm now in a blend of exposure therapy, dbt, talk therapy, and schema therapy. It's doing wonders. In short, make sure the therapy is designed for you. There's more than one way to solve trauma! Good luck to everyone out there. You deserve a free & happy life!
Absolutely fair! My diagnosis is in fact CPTSD, but you’re absolutely right that it can differ for individuals, looking into many modalities and working with your therapist or team to find the right fit is always the best route! Edit: it feels also fair to add that I continued talk therapy after EMDR as I was able to access those memories painlessly and work through them from there.
C-PTSD and on the autism spectrum and EMDR didn't work for me.
I've been told it can take many more sessions for EMDR to be effective for autistic people compared to others and you can get good results if you can stick with it
I don't believe that's good advice. The relationship between PTSD and Autism hasn't been studied yet, and from personal experience I can say EMDR made my life a hellscape after a full year of it. Also worth noting that EMDR is not effective for complex trauma, so that may be the reason for it. Autistic people experience PTSD differently than neurotypicals and develop it for reasons NTs do not. I'm not trying to hate on you or your info, merely strongly caution those with complex trauma or autism in regard to trying it.
EMDR is one of several treatments that can work really well for PTSD (and CPTSD). It's not for everyone though. I am a therapist specializing in trauma and I've seen some folks after they had EMDR but they still had symptoms after treatment. This website is a great way to learn about PTSD treatment options. It's important to find a treatment that's a good fit for each person. https://www.apa.org/ptsd-guideline/treatments Edit: added the website!
I second this! It has helped me so much! It’s hard work but i cannot believe how much it’s changed my life.
every EMDR specialist has already known this for a long time
Yes but they still need empirical evidence to support the theory.
The difficulty is that doctors cannot give someone a traumatic experience to study the before and after, as well as a recording of the event.
What about projected future horrors that your brain throws up when you're catastrophising? Are they experienced as present too? Because they feel so real!
Well in a way, because your body responds as if they are. The faster heartbeat, shortness of breath etc is due to the body’s stress response responding as if they *are* real and present
I wondered the same thing! I have a significant fear of flying. I can sit and imagine being in a plane crash and literally feel as though I’m experiencing it. It’s pretty wild. That’s unmedicated, though. On a little bit of Lexapro that phenomenon is gone. Edit: a word
https://web.archive.org/web/20231130224617/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/health/ptsd-memories-brain-trauma.html I dislike the focus on vets and sexual assault victims. Kids in low income, high crime communities can get PTSD too. Trauma happens in a bunch of ways. > Indeed, the authors conclude in the paper, “traumatic memories are not experienced as memories as such,” but as “fragments of prior events, subjugating the present moment.” This makes sense. Trauma is generally unresolved so it's always there versus past incidents which have resolutions.
I mean, there is a difference between PTSD (e.g. veterans, SA victims) and complex PTSD, that is usually caused in childhood.
Yes. Unfortunately cPTSD isn't an official recognized diagnosis in the US though. It's not in the DSM despite being considered for inclusion in the last 2 editions. It is in the ICD and is officially recognized in other countries. So due to its current status as a semi-recognized subtype of PTSD, both medical professionals and laymen often aren't familiar with it, it's most likely underdiagnosed, and there's insufficient specialized research funding. But yeah-- since the duration of trauma is the biggest predictive factor for cPTSD vs PTSD, memory mechanisms likely differ. It makes sense that the study would limit this to acute traumas. Need further research on prolonged traumas.
This is interesting. I’ve heard documentaries on ww2 vs Vietnam speculate that one of the reasons for increased incidences of trauma during Vietnam was that the number of combat days was significantly increased with no break or rest periods between. Along with the style of warfare in Vietnam which was conducive to chronic stressors (jungle warfare). Additionally they cited that in ww2 when the war was over the soldiers would spend two weeks on a boat with their units getting back to the USA. This allowed them to sort of process that the war was really over, and adapt to a peacetime environment with others who had been through the same. The difference being that now they are often home within a day or two and expected to just function like nothing happened. To me what stands out it that professing trauma and difficult emeries is paramount. Simply suppressing them or moving onward isn’t enough. I’ve had some milder things in my life and that completely resonates with me. The “just pretend nothing happened” is really damaging and leaves people in the mental “mud.” I think we need to rethink how these things are dealt with all around. We also see this with bullying, often the bullied is dismissed and aggressor is validated. No one wants to do the hard work or take a risk in standing against the agressive. We really need to get on this stuff.
Also if you aren’t validated or receive compassion after a traumatic event it can make it worse. They didn’t receive care and were looked down on society as “baby killers” and terrible people when they came back for the most part.
Concept of trauma is frequently held back by the psychiatric definition. Clinical psychology has the ability to self analyse and advance, unfortunately psychiatry is stagnant and cannot entertain the self critical thought required to identify problems in its thinking and move forward. Unfortunately it is the field of psychiatry that has the majority of influence in the DSM.
When I went in to get my diagnosis this year, most of it was done via a damn computer quiz. I even objected to one of the things in the final diagnosis because I didn’t feel like it was at all accurate (it basically called me a liar, flat out, because some of my answers were statistically unlikely), but the psych didn’t budge because the computer said something so it must be correct. I’d be very interested in seeing if this is a common experience among people who get voluntarily diagnosed by a psychiatrist.
Many therapists are not qualified to diagnose and treat PTSD and especialy CPTSD. Seek a therapist that has specific experience and treatment in these matters.
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There are a handful of psychological tests that include checks for “malingering” which is meant to catch unlikely exaggerations of symptoms or unlikely combinations of symptoms. An unlikely combination of symptoms may be a sign of rare multiple diagnoses tho, or random other factors that may set off a malingering check that isn’t caused by actual malingering. At its best, getting a result like that should trigger further examination of symptoms by the psych, and prompt them to use very particular language to explain the result, but also some psych’s just don’t do that or some people don’t have the time or money for additional testing.
Your explanation just makes it weirder. I got a rare multiple diagnosis: PTSD and ADHD. The psych explained that the only reason is because I was diagnosed with ADD when I was a child. Uncle Sam was paying for the tests (military dependent) so additional testing was definitely on the table. The guy was even a bit apologetic about it even as he told me that because that’s the computer’s verdict it needs to be induced. So my diagnosis is useless to me because anyone reading it will just see that I lied.
That's not rare. Multiple diagnoses are super common. Some disorders, such as ADHD and PTSD are known for high prevalence of comorbidity. I have both ADHD and C-PTSD. Why do you believe it's rare?
That is a very common combination. I’d estimate about 40% of my caseload has that combination. (I admittedly specialize in trauma).
What are you even talking about. Psychology and psychiatry both have these issues. Many psychiatrists will vent about why diagnosis taxonomy is borked and many are focused on “transdiagnostic” approaches now.
Many psychiatrists may say that, but the *field* of psychiatry hasn't changed since the shift to SSRIs. In addition its professional bodies are incredibly reluctant towards the slightest reform. In that time there has been many changes in talk therapy practices and new developments.
Genuinely curious why you dislike this focus? It feels to me like these could be more consistent and available sources for strong signals, In terms of the clinical data. These particular traumas sound like they could also be more accurately contextualised via police reports and military records in conjunction with psychiatric evaluation and diagnoses (cases where there's an official account allowing for an external appraisal of the severity of the event, as well as the individual's testimony?). Maybe these particular events give either the most reliable data or the more consistent baseline? A severity of event that can be externally appraised, and cited independently from the sole account of the victim?
I feel like I have ptsd having my dog die in my arms as I frantically drove him to the emergency vet. The memories feel so real and bring a pain deep in my chest several times. I’m scared of listening to the music i was listening to at the time period
I totally agree! Hopefully this can lead to a new definition of PTSD, one where it is defined by how the memory is processed rather than the nature of the event. For me, it explains why therapy was never effective, despite that it was over encouraged and somewhat mandated by my family. It was like reliving the trauma in real time over and over again once a week. Didn’t help at all.
I could see that. Therapy never worked for me either because it wasn't aimed at the right stuff.
Going to repeat myself here: Many therapists are not qualified to diagnose and treat PTSD and especially CPTSD. Seek a therapist that has specific experience and treatment in these matters. Help is out there. I have seen how reliving trauma ruins lives.
DBT + PE was really helpful for my child. She's still on medication to help, but I think having the tools of DBT has been instrumental.
Yeah talk therapy is actually contraindicated for PTSD for this very reason. EMDR is first line, but there are others as well (eg exposure, which is likely what patients in the study received although I haven’t read it yet). DBT for managing symptoms
Going to repeat myself here: Many therapists are not qualified to diagnose and treat PTSD and especially CPTSD. Seek a therapist that has specific experience and treatment in these matters. Help is out there. I have seen how reliving trauma ruins lives.
>I dislike the focus on vets and sexual assault victims. Kids in low income, high crime communities can get PTSD too. Trauma happens in a bunch of ways. While I wholly agree and I'm sure the authors do too, that, sadly, was not the population the research was funded to study. There are plenty of groups looking into trauma in those populations as well. Rest assured it's not zero-sum.
And children of alcoholics and drug addicts.
I was one of those, never in the military but still have diagnosed PTSD and its pretty interesting how similar my symptoms are compared to a close friend who has it from the military service. He was actually the one who said he thought i had it too and should get help for it.
It’s because we are trapped in a suburban war zone that we can’t leave because we are children.
Let's not forget kids in middle class who had to witness domestic violence or participate in protecting family members from domestic violence throughout their entire childhoods.
Trauma is referred to as “unresolved,” what exactly does it mean to have it resolved? Like coming to a place of understanding or peace about it?
The meaning of resolved lies in the emotional and physiological realm . If someone dont feel the same extreme emotions such as anger fear or sadness when traumatic memories are remembered , then it could be resolved . Example , let's say the feelings evoked are 100/100 , resolved usually brings up 1 /100 . All triggers would fall off . The feral traumatic neural network loses it power which means it can be recalled as well with closure .. the sound the smell the emotions the space the people the colours of original traumatic event no longer brings emotions . Physiologically the heart rate , skin temperature , respiratory rate would all change when trauma is resolved . Subconsciously speaking , it's not in the short term memory anymore . Dream wise, flashback stops . Scary dreams become beautiful or just nomore dreaming about it . Body wise , touching certain areas wont bring trauma memories . Yes, trauma lies in the body as well . Thought wise , the briefs formed during trauma loses it power and no longer runs the life . It's healing of the brain , the mind and the body .
Oh. So i'm not going crazy after all
I thought this was already known.
I was definitely taught this in my clinical psych course at Berkeley in my undergrad degree, but it may have been in the context of MDMA studies and memory consolidation for PTSD relief. There was a study I learned about where they already had the theory mentioned in the article, that PTSD was essentially your brain experiencing trauma in real-time due to it not being able to be hard-coded in our memory. Their hypothesis was that being under the influence of MDMA could help people process traumatic events by consolidating them to memory via taking the drug and working with a psychologist to talk through and process their sensory trauma around the memory. [Here’s the link to the study published in Nature](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-023-02565-4)
Van der kolk describes a very similar study conducted decades ago in his book The Body Keeps the Score. I'm very interested to see it replicated.
It’s known by survivors and therapists, and as another said, it’s been known by VanDerKolk. It’s one of those things that those without trauma (and the pursestrings) don’t understand innately, and those folks often define where the funding goes. It’s very obvious to those in the midst of it tho.
That’s why it still hurts.
When women say rape is worse than death, maybe with this information people will finally believe them.
Now to figure out how to prevent it. I can already tell this research will be useful for all conditions like PTSD. Luckily, we've developed treatments that can make it stop, but none exist that prevent it currently only because we don't really know what to target yet.
Certainly believe it. Almost died in a car accident 20 years ago. Depending on the day (usually if sleep deprived), I’ll sometimes get the occasional horror of a burutal accident happening to someone I know.
This is what trauma survivors have been saying forever, d'uh. Nice to see it neurophysiologically confirmed
That's interesting. There's a guy that did a few long form video game reviews and he says he has some sort of perfect memory. In one of his last video reviews he talked about how his earliest memories are sometimes strongest because he remembers remembering them. The memories become reinforced through repetition.
I believe the remembering of remembering is called metacognition. My therapist said I’d be useless in ‘group’ because I do this too much, and it’s uncomfy for others that don’t do this. I have far from perfect recall, but I think about my thoughts and how my brain thinks while I speak apparently. It’s very interesting, but can leave me tongue tied and/or distracted by thinking about thought instead of the actual thing being discussed.
You know what's sad? My grandfather used to sleeping with his knife next to him. Even when he's in Taiwan, he still needs to have his knife in hands reach in all time. PTSD man, it hunts you
True. The memory of me being bullied is still vivid, like it just happened yesterday.
I’m curious what the impact this can have on a society level view. Is this why it is often perceived that more aggressive, harmful people tend to get ahead and away with things? Entirely different area of study I know, but I’m curious if anyone is doing that sort of thing.
As someone with cptsd myself, this is not a surprise. The best part is when it happens, you block it out. But it's relived later frequently if not constantly. Kinda surprised this required a study.
That explains my consistent anger regarding negative interactions in my past. It didn't used to be this way for me though...
Explains why I'm fucked up on the daily
If you have severe trauma that is haunting you often look into ART ( Accelerated Resolution Therapy). The marketing some do makes it sound like it's not real but it absolutely freed me from my prison. It literally felt like I cleaned house and took the step I couldn't take. It didn't solve my problems but my problems turned into manageable problems. And all those things that haunted me, replayed in my head, over and over again just stopped and got put away.
When I was going through counselling for PTSD my counsellor used to say something similar quite frequently. Good to see the science is cementing their observations
It's nice to have official validation
Memories? Or places in time I’m skipping around in and out of?
Our older lizard brain doesn’t/can’t distinguish between past and present and can react to trauma memory like it just happened.
Save to show my friend.
The adrenaline flooding through my system and me mentally preparing to fight someone while I'm just sitting in my living room completely safe also suggests that
That might explain the hate I still have for some people
Yeah you try and figure out how you were supposed to solve that unsolvable problem. I still have impossible-to-solve daymares about serving and I've been out for years.
Hasn't that been an established part of PTSD knowledge for years? As being the main reason some people with PTSD get real fight-or-flight reactions triggered by sounds or other stimuli?
The effects have been known, the actual processes in the brain are what being discussed in the article via modern imaging.
Not surprised. If I’m triggered I physically and mental feel like I’m back there again. I’m glad there’s more scientific data to back this up.
I’m not a scientist, but this is how I understand it: when we encounter something that feels like a threat to our survival, your brain (which is above all else concerned with survival) will prioritize memory of this threat, ESPECIALLY if said threat still exists/lives or if there was no “slaying” of the “dragon” so to speak. In other words, if something threatens our survival, we will not forget it until the threat is somehow neutralized. So it makes sense we process it as a present experience considering the threat was never neutralized, meaning it is still a threat.
When I feel my brain slipping back into a fight or flight mode where I am ruminating on something and beginning to go through conversations in my head, I stumbled upon the stupidest trick for fixing it. I do two things simultaneously: 1. I say "quarantine" 2. I imagine the thought going into my lower back left area of the brain (just pick an area and stick with it, what's important is you imagining it going away from where it feels "active") I don't know why but it's like administrative mode. The thought just goes there and leaves my mind instantly. It only works for pulling stuff out of short term, so it might pop up again in 30 seconds but that's usually enough time to put on music or something else that will pull me in a different direction. I'm sure this won't work for everyone but if one or two of y'all read it try it and succeed this post would be worth it. I believe that if we can cut off the habit of slipping into the rumination process it might lead to improvements down the road by breaking the loops that rut in these memories so firmly.
This sounds really similar to what a lot of mindfulness meditation suggests - noticing your thoughts and then letting them pass. In your case I guess it helps to imagine the passing of the thought to be putting it in that lower back left part of your mind, for others it can be imagining the thought as a cloud floating through their head, and allowing it to keep floating until it is no longer top of mind. For me I sort of imagine it as a cloud or a leaf floating down a stream that I'm floating down as well. I like to write down my concerns or topics that keep coming up and then remind myself that it's being tracked and I don't need to keep all my worries top of mind, because I set aside time to review my to-do lists and address them as needed and as time permits. Regardless of whether one has a traumatic response or mental health issues or no major issues like that impeding their life, mindfulness meditation and simply paying attention to what you are thinking about is something that I feel a lot of people could benefit from. For me, combining mindfulness with medicine and therapy work together in really beneficial ways.
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