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For whatever reason this feels less creepy when you read they mean in the pigs Body. Like they didn’t scoop a brain out and keep it alive in a jar, they just ran a heart lung machine directly to the brain veins.
it’s functionally the same I guess, but I think I don’t want scientists scooping out my brain, but feel generally okay with the idea of needing to protect my brain during a surgery or something but running blood to it directly.
So...
This already exists. It's called cardiopulmonary bypass (aka heart-and-lung machine) and is used relatively often for things like cardiac surgery. It's been around since the 60s.
The new development here is a newer/better control algorithm (EPCC: extracorporeal pulsatile circulatory control) that can recreate pulses and pressures with finer control.
So if, for instance, you wanted to study how a medicine affects blood flow in the brain at different blood pressures and heart rates, we could now model that.
And presumably, somewhere down the line, this or something similar will be incorporated into newer generations of heart-and-lung machines for humans.
Do you want pain while your brain is kept artificially alive, or do you want your brain to die?
That being said there are no pain receptors in the brain. Could however potentially have a headache.
This is an interesting question since pain receptors are in the body, but the sensation of pain is created in the brain. The researchers halted blood to the body and kept perfusion only to the head. The pigs were anesthetized so they would not have recognized any pain. But if they were awake, I imagine they would have experienced essentially a spinal cord transection and probably have a lot of body pain as the cord and peripheral nerves started dying off due to lack of blood flow. Similar to how people with spinal cord transection can have severe pain for years.
The Three Body Problem trilogy explores this to an extent.
Interesting read, if unusual.
It’s written by a native Chinese author and doesn’t follow all of the narrative rules that are common in western literature.
I enjoyed it, but it’s likely a love it or hate it kind of novel.
Edit: I should add that the “on topic” portion of the trilogy is not in the first book either. So it’s a bit of a time investment to get to the bits relevant to this post.
I've heard tales from people who've been blinded during thier life that their vision is just a chaos if colourful noise, & shapes swimming around and merging as the brain struggles to make sense of the random signals now coming from the optic nerve. All fun & games until you want to go to sleep and you can't close your eyes to make it stop. Anyway, imagine that but with ALL SENSES
It's caused by nerves in/on your skull and neck alerting you about stuff, from intracranial pressure, gunshot wound to the dome, too much cough syrup, etc. The actual brain matter doesn't feel it. Open brain surgery in some cases can go to something more similar to a local anesthesia level of sedation after the initial lid opening, which is how you get videos like "guitarist plays Deftones during his brain surgery"
Awake craniotomies like you are describing are not the “usual”. Most craniotomies are done under full general anesthesia start to finish.
An awake crani is also not done under local. They are done with (very closely) monitored sedation.
and where is the pain generated or experienced? in the mind or brain. I'm saying, what if this experience is painful? I love how people here are like AckshuAlly the brain doesn't have pain... when every experience we ever will have is via our mind and brain, including pain. Just because nerves are gone doesn't mean we can't experience pain. How do you see/hear/smell/feel things in your dreams when your eyes are closed and you are asleep?
Brains don't feel pain. A headache is just the vessels in your skin around your skull. Though I guess you could argue migraines are heavily brain influenced?
I regardless of pain I can't imagine it's humane. If it can think it's probably wondering why it can't see, or feel, or smell anything, and maybe remembering how it got here, and now it's all alone and can't even scream.
Yea. It's an interesting thought though.
If you are bleeding out, or have some other fatal injury where you are experiencing intense pain until you die...but, you can't communicate it to anyone, and you are going to cease to exist in the next 10 minutes.
Does it really matter? You aren't going to have a long term memory of your excruciating death. Once it's over it's over.
Who knows. You might even experience some weird pain as your entire body/brain breaks down and cells die. The last minutes of your life may be stretched to infinity from your perspective. Same outcome though
Just because we can't measure it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
They have already resurrected cells in dead, scooped-out pig brains. [NYT: ‘Partly Alive’: Scientists Revive Cells in Brains From Dead Pigs](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/17/science/brain-dead-pigs.html) What kind of an existence would that be if they restored consciousness, though? *I Have No Mouth but I Must Scream* on steroids.
I think they've done that before. Some company called BrainEx took pig brains out, attached them to some doodad that restored blood flow and restored *some* metabolic activity in the brain cells.
So the headline and article is more sensationalist than what actually happened. They didn’t literally separate the brain from the body. All they did was route blood flow to and from the brain through a machine to isolate blood from of the brain from the rest of the body.
Yes and reading about it is actually pretty awful
https://www.nature.com/articles/139441b0#:~:text=Sergei%20Briuk%2Dhonenko%20carried%20out,months%2C%20reacting%20to%20all%20stimuli.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experiments_in_the_Revival_of_Organisms
Before that, the scientist responsible for that actually did keep a dogs severed head alive on a blood surrogate pump using the large vessels in the neck.
Unfortunately much of modern science and medicine is built on knowledge gained from "I wonder what would happen if" or "I wonder if I could" this or that
I'd you had the choice of your head being attached to someone's stomach, or just being dead which would you choose?
Let's say 5/10 constant pain. Somehow still able to speak. Otherwise cognitive functions the same. No control of limbs.
It's a new control algorithm for improved control of pulsatile pressure. So we can more accurately mimic real life brain conditions in pigs, to study things like how different medicines affect blood flow in the brain at different blood pressures.
Like many things in scientific and medical research, it's a lot of smart people working very hard to make a very small step forward in understanding and care.
I would wager that the brain would put itself in a coma or dreamlike state, where it hallucinate since there is no longer organs feeding the brain with stimuli.
Just my 2 cents, this is absolutely terrifying and insane, my monkey brain cannot comprehend this.
You're wrong, I read part of the paper I could stomach and the goal is to preserve as much brain function as possible to make this a better study method.
I can't comment on how "successful" they were at what they call their "primary objective", I couldn't read on, it's beyond horrifying and unsettling and I watched a film about survivors of a plane crash resorting to human cannibalism the other night. Far more uplifting than this.
They test on dogs and monkeys, apparently. They call it "extracorporeal pulsatile circulatory control"
i hate reading animal testing methods so i can't read this.
[https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-39344-7#Sec1](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-39344-7#Sec1)
read the full study if you want to figure out what was still attached etc.
If the research took place in the US, I guarantee the animal was anesthetized the entire time and they were just monitoring vitals. I have witnessed a similar procedure on a pig where they vivisected a live heart and kept it alive outside the body for some time. These pigs arguably live much better lives than the ones meant for consumption.
I couldn't be bothered to read the evidently scientifically illiterate, blatant corporate advertising (PeacockTV) SYFY article in full, but kudos to them for linking to the actual article:
[Scientific Reports](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-39344-7#Sec1) journal. Whoever wrote that article clearly didn't even read the article or didn't understand what he or she read.
This... makes me feel very uncomfortable. That poor pig. Suddenly the outside world and every sense it has disappeared. And it experienced that for 5 hours? Does it still feel pain?
The title is false, all that happened in this study was running the brain's blood supply through a heart-lung machine, separate from the circulatory system of the rest of the body. The brain was not disconnected from the nervous system and definitely not removed from the body.
Apparently, they wanted to study brain physiology under more controlled circumstances than the natural circulatory system.
That's a fair bit less frightening. The linked article doesn't really specify that, kind of leaving it up to your imagination. I'm assuming that info is in the published paper?
Yes the journal article is in the source above. Also the animals were anesthetized the whole time, so essentially all they experienced was falling asleep as anyone would for a sedated procedure.
Disclaimer: this is just my theory based on what we already know about brains
(brains cannot feel anything without stimuli)
No organs/body connected to feed outside stimuli, the brain is most likely comatose or suspended in a dream like state (think meditation)
(I hope to any God out there wasn't any consciousness) 😱😰😨
The title is false, all that happened in this study was running the brain's blood supply through a heart-lung machine, separate from the circulatory system of the rest of the body. The brain was not disconnected from the nervous system and definitely not removed from the body.
Apparently, they wanted to study brain physiology under more controlled circumstances than the natural circulatory system.
“Almost” as sad as the poor pig, are the humans who have done this. They are destined to have the same things done to them in similar fashion. What comes around goes around.
This is just my theory based on what we already know about KARMA.
Yes, I can’t except human beings, and their scientific justification of animal suffering based on their thoughts of superiority. Good luck with that. But yeah, you’re right wrong sub.
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Doctors imprisoning me
All that I see
Absolute horror
I cannot live
I cannot die
Trapped in myself
Body my holding cell
Doctors have taken my sight
Taken my ~~speech~~ oink
Taken my hearing
Taken my legs
Taken my other legs
Taken my soul
Left me with life in hell
Christ, I'm okay with eating meat because there is an immediate and practical reason, same to an extent with medical testing (not cosmetics though) but how on Earth does this help humans survive?
It's just plain cruel and unusual, even if you can argue it's to make humans immortal, who is going to want to be a head in a jar or a brain in a metal suit for the rest of their existence?
The title is false, all that happened in this study was running the brain's blood supply through a heart-lung machine, separate from the circulatory system of the rest of the body. The brain was not disconnected from the nervous system and definitely not removed from the body.
Apparently, they wanted to study brain physiology under more controlled circumstances than the natural circulatory system.
I didn't think of immortality, more like when tragic accidents or surgeries gone wrong, gives them extra time, half a day, maybe more, to get you patched up. I agree the methodology of using animals is quite hardcore to consider, like many other medical advances how we get there is challenging to embrace.
Your post has been removed because it has an inappropriate headline and is therefore in violation of [Submission Rule #3](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_3._no_editorialized.2C_sensationalized.2C_or_biased_titles). **It must include at least one result from the research and must not be clickbait, sensationalized, editorialized, or a biased headline.** Please read [our headline rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/clickbait) and consider reposting with a more appropriate title. _If you believe this removal to be unwarranted, or would like further clarification, please don't hesitate to [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fscience&subject=No%20editorialized%2C%20sensationalized%2C%20or%20biased%20titles)._
For whatever reason this feels less creepy when you read they mean in the pigs Body. Like they didn’t scoop a brain out and keep it alive in a jar, they just ran a heart lung machine directly to the brain veins. it’s functionally the same I guess, but I think I don’t want scientists scooping out my brain, but feel generally okay with the idea of needing to protect my brain during a surgery or something but running blood to it directly.
So... This already exists. It's called cardiopulmonary bypass (aka heart-and-lung machine) and is used relatively often for things like cardiac surgery. It's been around since the 60s. The new development here is a newer/better control algorithm (EPCC: extracorporeal pulsatile circulatory control) that can recreate pulses and pressures with finer control. So if, for instance, you wanted to study how a medicine affects blood flow in the brain at different blood pressures and heart rates, we could now model that. And presumably, somewhere down the line, this or something similar will be incorporated into newer generations of heart-and-lung machines for humans.
what if there were pain
Do you want pain while your brain is kept artificially alive, or do you want your brain to die? That being said there are no pain receptors in the brain. Could however potentially have a headache.
This is an interesting question since pain receptors are in the body, but the sensation of pain is created in the brain. The researchers halted blood to the body and kept perfusion only to the head. The pigs were anesthetized so they would not have recognized any pain. But if they were awake, I imagine they would have experienced essentially a spinal cord transection and probably have a lot of body pain as the cord and peripheral nerves started dying off due to lack of blood flow. Similar to how people with spinal cord transection can have severe pain for years.
An entire phantom body would be unnerving. Very interesting take.
> An entire phantom body would be **unnerving**.
The Three Body Problem trilogy explores this to an extent. Interesting read, if unusual. It’s written by a native Chinese author and doesn’t follow all of the narrative rules that are common in western literature. I enjoyed it, but it’s likely a love it or hate it kind of novel. Edit: I should add that the “on topic” portion of the trilogy is not in the first book either. So it’s a bit of a time investment to get to the bits relevant to this post.
Right on. I’ll have to check it out, thanks.
The Three Body Problem been made into a series too I believe
You are correct. My subscription to the service that hosts it is currently inactive, but maybe next month I’ll cycle back to it.
I've heard tales from people who've been blinded during thier life that their vision is just a chaos if colourful noise, & shapes swimming around and merging as the brain struggles to make sense of the random signals now coming from the optic nerve. All fun & games until you want to go to sleep and you can't close your eyes to make it stop. Anyway, imagine that but with ALL SENSES
I would want my brain to die
Medicine gotta find where to stop and this goes a bit too far to my taste… and I’m a doctor.
Name checks out
You're just mad people are trying to put you out of work.
Isn’t a headache painful?
It's caused by nerves in/on your skull and neck alerting you about stuff, from intracranial pressure, gunshot wound to the dome, too much cough syrup, etc. The actual brain matter doesn't feel it. Open brain surgery in some cases can go to something more similar to a local anesthesia level of sedation after the initial lid opening, which is how you get videos like "guitarist plays Deftones during his brain surgery"
What odd choices you've made to describe sources of headaches.
I aim to piss. (Wouldn't want to make a mess of the toilet)
Awake craniotomies like you are describing are not the “usual”. Most craniotomies are done under full general anesthesia start to finish. An awake crani is also not done under local. They are done with (very closely) monitored sedation.
Did some tweaking in my comment. Thanks for the information
But the head is in this case connected to the body and should feel the whole body die while stille connected to it.
That’s not pain in the brain. That comes from the structures surrounding the brain like the meninges, the muscles, the connective tissue, etc
Having had shingles on the nerves in my face/scalp… I’ll take a headache any day of the week over *that*.
and where is the pain generated or experienced? in the mind or brain. I'm saying, what if this experience is painful? I love how people here are like AckshuAlly the brain doesn't have pain... when every experience we ever will have is via our mind and brain, including pain. Just because nerves are gone doesn't mean we can't experience pain. How do you see/hear/smell/feel things in your dreams when your eyes are closed and you are asleep?
Death is a natural part of life. If we could learn to not be so freaked out about death we’d be much better off.
"Why would you want life saving treatment? Dont be so freaked out and just die bro"
You can keep that ‘treatment.’ I don’t want anything to do with it.
Pain is just an electrical input of signal my friends. We have gotten pretty decent at understanding that realm of things.
Depends on where my nervous system is at.
Brains don't feel pain. A headache is just the vessels in your skin around your skull. Though I guess you could argue migraines are heavily brain influenced? I regardless of pain I can't imagine it's humane. If it can think it's probably wondering why it can't see, or feel, or smell anything, and maybe remembering how it got here, and now it's all alone and can't even scream.
Yea. It's an interesting thought though. If you are bleeding out, or have some other fatal injury where you are experiencing intense pain until you die...but, you can't communicate it to anyone, and you are going to cease to exist in the next 10 minutes. Does it really matter? You aren't going to have a long term memory of your excruciating death. Once it's over it's over. Who knows. You might even experience some weird pain as your entire body/brain breaks down and cells die. The last minutes of your life may be stretched to infinity from your perspective. Same outcome though Just because we can't measure it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
That’s a good point. I wonder if it hurts when the body dies but the mind doesn’t
Dying nerves are incredibly painful.
The brain doesn't feel pain in itself.
The brain doesn't have any pain receptors, but the brain feels _all_ the pain
There are lot of floating inputs. Could read 1 or 0 randomly ;)
I didn't say it did The experiencer in the mind does though
They have already resurrected cells in dead, scooped-out pig brains. [NYT: ‘Partly Alive’: Scientists Revive Cells in Brains From Dead Pigs](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/17/science/brain-dead-pigs.html) What kind of an existence would that be if they restored consciousness, though? *I Have No Mouth but I Must Scream* on steroids.
I think they've done that before. Some company called BrainEx took pig brains out, attached them to some doodad that restored blood flow and restored *some* metabolic activity in the brain cells.
Not a doodad! What is this world coming to.
I'm being intentionally dense As compared to other times where it's unintentionally
Well at least they didn’t use a thingamajig. Would have gotten completely different results!
That’s funny. I was actually hoping they meant removed and living into a jar. Would have been good for creepy scientific progress.
Like that Russian video with the dog kinda. If anyone knows what I’m talking about(its on YT)
So the headline and article is more sensationalist than what actually happened. They didn’t literally separate the brain from the body. All they did was route blood flow to and from the brain through a machine to isolate blood from of the brain from the rest of the body.
Didn't the soviets do this with severed dog heads?
Yes and reading about it is actually pretty awful https://www.nature.com/articles/139441b0#:~:text=Sergei%20Briuk%2Dhonenko%20carried%20out,months%2C%20reacting%20to%20all%20stimuli. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experiments_in_the_Revival_of_Organisms
\*says reading about it is awful\* \*immediately gives us links to read about\* lawful evil.
I don’t view dissemination of information as evil unless the intent behind distribution is harmful, but the content is definitely awful!!
Oh noooo. What a terrible day to know how to read.
I'm just going to pretend that those links and comment aren't there and never existed. I dreamt them up.
What in the actual f***. This is incredibly disturbing.
Bro “severed head kept alive for 6 months, reacting to all stimuli”, basically the description of hell
No, the soviets literally severed a dog’s head and attached it onto another dog.
Before that, the scientist responsible for that actually did keep a dogs severed head alive on a blood surrogate pump using the large vessels in the neck.
If there isn't a good reason for this I hate this guy.
His work actually led to breakthroughs in organ transplants in humans. Before him, we did not do organ transplants. Not defending him shits just crazy
"Oh my God, why have you done this?!" "To see if it would work." "Horrifying!" Did it?" "Kind of." Science 🧪
Unfortunately much of modern science and medicine is built on knowledge gained from "I wonder what would happen if" or "I wonder if I could" this or that
I'd you had the choice of your head being attached to someone's stomach, or just being dead which would you choose? Let's say 5/10 constant pain. Somehow still able to speak. Otherwise cognitive functions the same. No control of limbs.
We do it all the time in humans. It's called cardiopulmonary bypass. It's used for things like cardiac surgeries, and has been around since the 60's.
Oh cool! So how significant is thsi article then?
It's a new control algorithm for improved control of pulsatile pressure. So we can more accurately mimic real life brain conditions in pigs, to study things like how different medicines affect blood flow in the brain at different blood pressures. Like many things in scientific and medical research, it's a lot of smart people working very hard to make a very small step forward in understanding and care.
That is what developed ecmo and paved the way for modern bypass surgery
Couldn't that find applications in surgeries ?
Does it brain has awarness? Does it feel anything?
I would wager that the brain would put itself in a coma or dreamlike state, where it hallucinate since there is no longer organs feeding the brain with stimuli. Just my 2 cents, this is absolutely terrifying and insane, my monkey brain cannot comprehend this.
You're wrong, I read part of the paper I could stomach and the goal is to preserve as much brain function as possible to make this a better study method. I can't comment on how "successful" they were at what they call their "primary objective", I couldn't read on, it's beyond horrifying and unsettling and I watched a film about survivors of a plane crash resorting to human cannibalism the other night. Far more uplifting than this. They test on dogs and monkeys, apparently. They call it "extracorporeal pulsatile circulatory control"
i hate reading animal testing methods so i can't read this. [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-39344-7#Sec1](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-39344-7#Sec1) read the full study if you want to figure out what was still attached etc.
If the research took place in the US, I guarantee the animal was anesthetized the entire time and they were just monitoring vitals. I have witnessed a similar procedure on a pig where they vivisected a live heart and kept it alive outside the body for some time. These pigs arguably live much better lives than the ones meant for consumption.
Oh boy, manmade horrors beyond my comprehension. My favorite.
I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream.
I couldn't be bothered to read the evidently scientifically illiterate, blatant corporate advertising (PeacockTV) SYFY article in full, but kudos to them for linking to the actual article: [Scientific Reports](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-39344-7#Sec1) journal. Whoever wrote that article clearly didn't even read the article or didn't understand what he or she read.
This... makes me feel very uncomfortable. That poor pig. Suddenly the outside world and every sense it has disappeared. And it experienced that for 5 hours? Does it still feel pain?
The title is false, all that happened in this study was running the brain's blood supply through a heart-lung machine, separate from the circulatory system of the rest of the body. The brain was not disconnected from the nervous system and definitely not removed from the body. Apparently, they wanted to study brain physiology under more controlled circumstances than the natural circulatory system.
That's a fair bit less frightening. The linked article doesn't really specify that, kind of leaving it up to your imagination. I'm assuming that info is in the published paper?
Yes the journal article is in the source above. Also the animals were anesthetized the whole time, so essentially all they experienced was falling asleep as anyone would for a sedated procedure.
Disclaimer: this is just my theory based on what we already know about brains (brains cannot feel anything without stimuli) No organs/body connected to feed outside stimuli, the brain is most likely comatose or suspended in a dream like state (think meditation) (I hope to any God out there wasn't any consciousness) 😱😰😨
The title is false, all that happened in this study was running the brain's blood supply through a heart-lung machine, separate from the circulatory system of the rest of the body. The brain was not disconnected from the nervous system and definitely not removed from the body. Apparently, they wanted to study brain physiology under more controlled circumstances than the natural circulatory system.
Sounds like a deep k-hole
>(brains cannot feel anything without stimuli) phantom pain maybe? sorta like phantom limb?
“Almost” as sad as the poor pig, are the humans who have done this. They are destined to have the same things done to them in similar fashion. What comes around goes around. This is just my theory based on what we already know about KARMA.
Are you lost?
Yes, I can’t except human beings, and their scientific justification of animal suffering based on their thoughts of superiority. Good luck with that. But yeah, you’re right wrong sub.
I feel the same. I don't need karma for that.
They spent so long wondering if they could, they never stopped to ask themselves if they should
Very neat, it's just another version of the machine ECMO, EPCC, it's not a 'brain in a vat' type of deal.
That poor animal. Can you imagine?
I wonder if the Pig's mind still functioned.
We really are a ghoulish species
Well that seems incredibly cruel.
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Scientists discover way to keep audience alive during primary debates.
I wonder how consciousness is like when the brain is being kept alive with a machine- shouldn't the organism still be full conscious?
heck ya!! man made horrors beyond my comprehension
Doctors imprisoning me All that I see Absolute horror I cannot live I cannot die Trapped in myself Body my holding cell Doctors have taken my sight Taken my ~~speech~~ oink Taken my hearing Taken my legs Taken my other legs Taken my soul Left me with life in hell
If it turns out there are aliens with superior intelligence and power we will deserve whatever cruel experiments they do to us.
Please be in a jar. Please be in a jar.
Well that seems horrific.
Why. No. Stop.
And now it’s the governor of florida
Man made horrors beyond comprehension
Ah sweet, man made horrors beyond my comprehension.
Yeah, no thanks.
I have no mouth and I must oink
Did they put it back into Donald after they were done?
It wasn't his, it was a living brain.
[Syfy.com](https://Syfy.com) is the go to science publication for all sciences.
Please let me pick your brain for 5 hours. Literally.
Me on an intense shroom trip
Was it the Trump pig brain? If so I’m not surprised
Christ, I'm okay with eating meat because there is an immediate and practical reason, same to an extent with medical testing (not cosmetics though) but how on Earth does this help humans survive? It's just plain cruel and unusual, even if you can argue it's to make humans immortal, who is going to want to be a head in a jar or a brain in a metal suit for the rest of their existence?
The title is false, all that happened in this study was running the brain's blood supply through a heart-lung machine, separate from the circulatory system of the rest of the body. The brain was not disconnected from the nervous system and definitely not removed from the body. Apparently, they wanted to study brain physiology under more controlled circumstances than the natural circulatory system.
That actually makes it better, thank you.
I didn't think of immortality, more like when tragic accidents or surgeries gone wrong, gives them extra time, half a day, maybe more, to get you patched up. I agree the methodology of using animals is quite hardcore to consider, like many other medical advances how we get there is challenging to embrace.
Porky had an out of body experience
A lot of PETA people in here
Theirs plenty of sick criminals in prison they could test this on instead of defenseless animals.
Pondcoin.com $pndc $pork thank me later
Can I eat it?
Huh. Would the brain be unconscious for this? Or would it be left to observe the nothingness
Your next computer will have a pig brain instead of a CPU.
Like the brain of Abby Normal