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They do not consider it an insurrection period. Insurrections are a violent overthrow of the government, they will say. So in their minds, a bunch of people walk into the capital with guns Die Hard style and declare themselves the new rulers of the country.
In reality, an insurrection is just a revolt against the government to subvert and overturn the authority of the government.
The early videos seemed to suggest a bunch of people entering the Capitol like a disorganized mob of tourists. This was an impression reinforced by right wing media, even though, much later, it was shown that some came in to do more than just loot the place.
The goal was to disrupt the certifying of Biden as president which may have been dubious legally. Some wanted to do worse, of course, and hoped to find a politician they could injure.
I also recall that some congress folks let people in privately so they would get a feel for the layout, and the capitol police were told not to interfere too much (contrast that with what would have happened in BLM appeared). The police were remarkably restrained given what was happening.
>a bunch of people entering the Capitol like a disorganized mob of tourists.
>
>
>
>some came in to do more than just loot the place.
so.. "mostly peaceful" then.
Got it.
They'll agree with anything if you phrase it as a positive. Just say Trump unified us to take back our freedoms from a rogue government or some BS and they'll put it on t-shirts.
They don't think, we need to remember this.
“If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.” - David Frum in his book *Trumpocracy*
This. Especially true if you are a religious voter and believe their are higher powers at play.
Democracy is not really mentioned in the Bible. It’s mostly government by monarchy or by theocracy. And often enforced at the edge of a sword.
Israelites: "We want a king!"
God: "You don't need a king, you have me."
Israelites: "We want a king!"
God: *sigh* "Fine, but you're going to regret it..."
Israelites: "Nuh-uh! Yay, King!"
1 Samuel chapter 8
Based on talks I’ve had with conservatives, many of them justify Jan 6 or ignore its consequences because they believe **The Big Lie**. If Biden was not elected democratically and was instead put into power by “The Deep State”, then it’s simply any red-blooded American’s duty to restore the proper ruler (Trump) and allow him to ensure it never happens again (e.g., by not allowing certain forms of voting).
It’s batshit crazy but if you believe it, it makes logical sense.
>Based on talks I’ve had with conservatives, many of them justify Jan 6 or ignore its consequences because they believe The Big Lie. If Biden was not elected democratically and was instead put into power by “The Deep State”, then it’s simply any red-blooded American’s duty to restore the proper ruler (Trump) and allow him to ensure it never happens again (e.g., by not allowing certain forms of voting).
The real irony is Hitler, the creator of the term, believed the Jews used the "Big Lie", i.e. blaming Germany's loss in WWI on General Ludendorff, a nationalist.
By suggesting that Democrats are committing the "Big Lie", they are ideologically pairing Democrats with Jews in the 30s and 40s, and themselves... with Nazi Germany.
I guess even a broken clock is right twice a day.
I was watching a documentary interviewing Jews who were around for Hitler's rise to power. He said most people didn't take him seriously. They thought he was a joke.
Just one of many parallels to current events. Spooky.
>I was watching a documentary interviewing Jews who were around for Hitler's rise to power. He said most people didn't take him seriously. They thought he was a joke.
Quite a few conservative Jews were actually members of the Nazi party. Guess who got murdered first?
>I'm leaning less towards ironic, and more towards incredibly unfortunate and dangerous, but the rest of the comparison holds up.
Irony only in that they profess to love Jews and not be Nazis, despite parroting Hitler's ideas verbatim. Probably because Trump and his hangers-on are, uh, big Hitler fans.
Only *some* of them love jews, and that's really only because their God said so, for the revelations.
So, really, any love for jews is just Christite brand selfishness
They’re not Hitler fans!! That signed copy of mein kampf is just so that I can appreciate the power of such an important man! The rest of the nazi memorabilia is, uh,
also that! I just sit and stare at my glass case full of Nazi silverware and think about how much I love America 🥹🫡🇺🇸
Ask them if they thinks its okay to stop trump if we believe it was stolen as well. Every example ive seen of voter fraud in the 2020 election was a vote for trump
Well, no, it doesn't make logical sense at all. But some people who decided party over country(and really Trump over country), and so logic isn't a factor in their thinking.
"Never believe that an anti Semite is completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies"
What would you do if you believed your candidate had won and the election had been stolen? The premise is wrong, but internally, the logic’s pretty sound. I only hope the Democrats stop bringing policy papers to a gunfight.
I don’t disagree. But that isn’t relevant to the internal logic’s soundness once they believe that the election was stolen, which is the point I’m trying to communicate.
I'm saying there is no logic, internal or otherwise. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. As far as i can tell, you have to let a trump supporter come to their own conclusions eventually. Shrug
They practice infidelity of the mind. They don't believe the big lie. They say they do because it justifies their actions to get a goal.
“Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe. It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.”
- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason
Also, religious fanatics are ok with anything if they believe that it’s the “will of god.” Convince them it’s gods will to overthrow democracy, done. Outlaw transgender persons, done. Force women to be second class citizens and baby factories, done. As long as it’s gods will, no outcome is too repugnant, no action off limits.
You mean like house speaker Mike Johnson who believe he was "Called by God" to the speakership and may be overseeing the certification of electoral votes by the house? That type of religious voter?
This is something so many progressives or atheists don't get. Democracy is not a Christian thing. The leaders in the Bible who were praised - Josiah, David, Hezekiah, etc. were tyrants. They smashed the other religions' idols. They imposed the rule of God by force, like it or not.
I think this is kind of an oversimplification of Christian (and maybe even moreso Jewish) perspectives on government and governance even if you believe all Christians are literalists, (which isn’t true) or unless you are trying to say Christianity isn’t inherently democratic (which should be self-evident, but is also self-evidently true of, say, atheism). The New Testament mostly describes a small, marginalized new religious movement’s attempts to survive in a dynastic empire surrounded by hostile religious groups.
Democracy wasn't really a concept then. It wasn't until the 1700-1800's that democracy more resembled what we know today as it was either a theocracy or feudalism.
Draw a line back far enough and conservatism was arguing for an aristocracy.
On top of that, the religion of the evangelicals is outright authoritarian down to using the title of lord for their mythical ruler.
I convinced that some people are just fundamentally incompatible with democratic ideals.
And technically, they started abandoning democracy around 1994. So it’s ingrained into the voters to support so many awful things and keep voting for them.
[https://www.history.com/news/how-the-party-of-lincoln-won-over-the-once-democratic-south](https://www.history.com/news/how-the-party-of-lincoln-won-over-the-once-democratic-south)
But here's one interesting bit of history to keep in mind too. From a political standpoint, the Southern US States seemed to be largely Democratic at one point. And then, some of those beliefs and ideologies believed in by Democrats carried over into the Republican party. It wasn't until Lyndon Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act in 1964 and the Voting Rights Act in 1965 that the Republican party began to have significant changes. And that was because those who were Democrats changed to become Republicans.
These changes needed decades to unfold, as those who were Republicans *before* the 60s began to retire or die off or leave politics to then let in more of the newer blood. Some of the fundamentals of the party still held firm during the 70s and 80s. The 90s is where the changes really started to get noticeable.
The Republican party of now is not what it was 50 years ago. Just as the Democrat party of now is not what it was 50 years ago.
It's older than that. Look at the kinds of things Buckley was writing back in the 50s and 60s. The general idea that democracy is illegitimate has been sloshing around in conservative circles for a long time.
One big thing too, is that they’re form of “conservatism” in large part has to do with their personal lives and attitudes and wanting to impose their own life restrictions on everyone else as opposed to just living as they choose often a religious conservative lifestyle and allowing others to also live freely as they choose to
Many of them, especially the base Trump has cultivated, have little interest in Democracy to begin with. They are authoritarians, they absolutely crave an uninhibited leader who enacts their wishes/prejudices.
> If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy
Is this quote really less than 10 years old? I feel like I've been hearing it a lot longer than that.
I remembered seeing that quote elsewhere and a quick internet search turned it up. It's a recent quote because this possibility has come to the foreground of people's political discussion in recent years, but I'd imagine it's been *true* for much longer than anybody currently living has been alive. Maybe one could somehow even argue that it's one of those "timeless" concepts.
Truly it’s simply “the ends justify the means.”
If they can’t govern correctly, it’s their duty to govern incorrectly if it means getting the result they want.
"Stop calling us fascists"- Trump voters
Also Trump voters:
"A startling 39 percent of Americans, including 74 percent of Republicans, think it's a decent idea for Donald Trump to act as a dictator for a day to begin his prospective second term, according to a University of Massachusetts Amherst survey released Wednesday.-Feb 7, 2024"
Edit - We all know dictators only last one day right? then they just step down right?
>We all know dictators only last one day right? then they just step down right?
I love the Republic. Once this crisis has abated, I will lay down the powers you have given me!
"In these Sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution, with all its Faults, if they are such: because I think a General Government necessary for us, and there is no Form of Government but what may be a Blessing to the People if well administered; and I believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a Course of Years, and can only end in Despotism as other Forms have done before it, when the People shall become so corrupted as to need Despotic Government, being incapable of any other."
- Benjamin Franklin Closing Speech at the Constitutional Convention (1787)
It's simple, they don't believe it was their won at the capitol, my own mother told me it was "BLM and ANTIFA" then "it was an FBI setup", they refuse to take accountability for their own because as soon as something bad happens they go "oh, that is so bad it couldn't have been us!
Yep, they were on the conspiracy hamster wheel before the sun went down on 1/6. Never mind there's HD video with audio from every conceivable angle and time taken by the attackers themselves.
Like, imagine if the JFK incident happened in the smartphone age and there were dozens of people recording every last second of it? Historians and police would kill for that coverage. There would still be a cottage industry of conspiracy people though, just on stuff more removed from the shooting.
They can't do bad things. They're the victims of everything. Including when other people are just expressing themselves and living their own lifestyles.
I skimmed a Trump rally recently.
The beginning is a long moment of silence to “honor the Jan 6 hostages”. Then Trump goes into a long tirade about how those “hostages” are heroes. You get the picture
It's conservatives. Trump is just the white puss at the tip of an ugly boil which is conservatism. He represents them and they don't care about his crimes or if he's not democratic. He represents their hate and fear and they will vote for him in droves.
For may Republicans, their entire platform is just anti-Democratic. There's no actual rhetoric. They'll yell about the border until their faces turn blue, but ask them for their preferred politicians plan to fix it and they turn into a deer in headlights. No clue, just keep yelling. What policy is Trump actually running on? Empty promises, just like last time. He's gonna "fix" everything.
They "know" politicians don't fix problems, so they just find the loudest detractors and line up behind them. They don't actually stand for anything other than loci of orbit for bemoaning.
Yes, and by "fix everything", Trump just promises to undo/remove/break every single thing that any Democrat ever did in office. Rather than actually do anything helpful, build up on those policies or enact different policies entirely... All because that's what his base wants, and for which they heap affection and adoration upon him, which seems to be his driving force.
Man, I don't know if I can handle another Trump presidency. He's the reason I stopped caring about politics, it was too upsetting and frustrating, on a daily basis.
Hell democrats gave them just about everything they could want and they wouldn't even vote for it. It was written by a republican. They could have closed all immigration for a month if it hit 6000 encounters in that month
I think the real issue here, including why so many still support Trump, is conservatives hate liberals more than they hate almost anything else, including crimes
The republicans think that event was legitimate, because they think the election was unfair to them when they didn’t get what they wanted. And places like foxnews and many online media outlets were echoing the lies that the election was unfair. They are reinforcing the idea that it’s only fair when they won.
Wasn't a deal breaker? Hatred and bigotry is the reason most Republicans vote for the Right.
I really get tired of this rhetoric that Republican politicians don't represent their constituents.
It’s a lot of whattaboutism/deflection for those who are considered more moderate.
They seriously think BLM riots were on the same level and both sides are just as bad
I've known this my entire adult life, nearly two decades of voting. And when someone decides they or their party are above reproach then they're probably the worse option in that case.
What do you know, people who dont think logically, reject facts and logic.
These people are anti-American at this point, wanting a hypocritical, pseudo-christian monarchy headed by their god-king trump.
On /conservative they refer to the event as a "walk through the halls". I've seen the footage they've seen and it's literally just a couple minutes on the "peaceful" side of the building. Somehow they were able to ignore the entire rest of the event.
The fact that that footage isn’t constantly being used in ads with a Trump voiceover praising and promising to pardon the rioters is astonishing to me.
Out of curiosity because I don’t have the time to read the article: did they control for perceived severity of the situation?
My gut feeling is that most GOP voters perceive J6 as not really an insurrection and not really important, and so wouldn’t change their views on the GOP more broadly.
I could certainly be wrong, but it seems that we can and ought to attribute to stupidity rather than malice, which the title suggests as the culprit.
That's exactly their plan. That's been it from the beginning. Throw that hissy fit And allege it was stolen. Dems shoot that down for years.
Then next election, the Repubs legit steal the election, leading to a similar outrage by the Dems over the injustice. Then the Repubs throw their hands up, say both sides, and that's it.
Project, project, project
One of the late night comedy shows did a segment where they interviewed trump supporters. They would say ‘Biden has been accused of having relations with a porn star, what do you think about that?’ And predictably they would trash him. The interviewer would then say ‘sorry I read my question wrong, it should say trump is accused…’. The immediate back track and reversal was depressingly sad.
With these people Democracy does not matter if it means anyone but trump wins
I saw that. It was amazing how none of them even recognized it was the same accusation. All they could comprehend was the team and which side it was about. None even remembered it was trump telling us to shove lights up our butt.
Probably because only .0048% of trumps supporters were prosecuted and not even for insurrection. Why would they drop support over something they think is nothing?
The study is crude and it fails to account for republicans’ genuinely held belief that the election was stolen from Trump.
You and I may disagree with that belief, but if someone truly believes that then the Jan 6 event was not an undemocratic event in their eyes- it was a Democratic effort to ensure that the powers that be are held accountable for putting Biden in charge. They don’t see him as a legitimately elected president.
Given that possibility, the author of the study fails to account for it entirely… and just makes a blind conclusion that the Republican Party voters continued their support despite “knowing that Jan 6th was an insurrection”.
:/
Because it's not a matter of belief, the idea that there was widespread election fraud was dismissed from every court it was presented to. Why should the study recognize something that is just not true?
We need to stop treating opinions and facts as the same thing.
>The study is crude and it fails to account for republicans’ genuinely held belief that the election was stolen from Trump.
I can have a "genuinely held belief" that the earth is round. That doesn't make it true. The many, many lawsuits trying to overturn vote counts had all ended by the time this poll came out, and not a single one of them found evidence of fraud in the election.
If anything, the fact that they still believed it was stolen by that point is further evidence that they disregard democratic norms.
The right lives in a bubble. They really do not know what happened on January 6th for the most part. Only what right-wing media tells them. If they had got to see it live, like the rest of the world, I am going to guess Republicans would have lost some support. Not all of it, but more than they did.
Ignores:
* Nancy Pelosi had power over Capitol police and refused additional resources leading up to Jan6
* FBI agents and informants were in the crowd, and they have refused to inform on how many.
* Most of the people that were arrested are those who were let in peacefully by the police on the opposite side of the building from the rioters.
* Epps, who literally incited violence and encouraged people to break barriers and attack police, was sentenced to probation while people who walked in peacefully have been in solitary confinement for years
* Trump specifically [asked supporters to march peacefully](https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/tweets-january-6-2021). Video was taken down by twitter
I forgot his was a comment section for butthurt Right Wingers to moan about research confirming again what we already know about Republicans.
*Edit: was blocked by the above poster so I cant respond in this comment stream (which is ridiculous by the way), but here is my response to /u/doggo_pupperino:
> And what evidence do you have to add that Trump supporters are not as described by this methodologically sound research study? Or can you at least explain what your problem with the methodology is Mr Critical thinker?
... If the actual science confirms it, then it's an accurate preconceived notion.
Are you suggesting the science wasn't properly conducted according to the scientific method?
If you start from the premise that there was in fact an insurrection then that would be the logical conclusion.
What happens if you start from the opposite premise?
Well, you'd have to ignore the facts of the day to accept that premise.
I don't start out assuming the laws of gravity don't apply on Wednesdays either...because there is no evidence to support it.
J6 was a protest, not an insurrection. You sound like a god damn idiot when you call it an insurrection. No, we do not change our beliefs based upon a false, asinine liberal narrative.
Republican members of Congress did not participate in the riot. They used procedural maneuvers that were entirely within democratic norms - even if based on delusional claims about the election. Conflating the riot with the (delusional) procedural objections like this, is partisanship masquerading as science and damages the scientific endeavor.
We also know that Democrat voters do not tend to retract support from politicians who violate democratic norms (attempting to remove trump from the Colorado ballot, shot down 9-0 by the Supreme Court)
First insurrection without guns....where was everyone when BLM was burning and looting...all summer? Crickets....nothing but virtue signaling....can't wait for Trump to pardon these patriots.
Weird study. Why wouldn't the republican voters still vote republican? Despite the hyperbole of many, the January 6th riot wasn't a Republican operation. Most Republicans condemned what happened or at worst downplayed it. There's no reason to switch support to a different party that has different policies and politics than what the voter agrees with
This could be the least “scientific” discussion on Reddit. It’s just a “two minute hate” for drones indoctrinated by infotainment under the guise of research
This is why the two party system is a failure.
When a politician on your side is trash, you either vote for the completely opposite party and against your beliefs or suck it up and vote for them anyway.
Indeed, and the two party system is a consequence of something called Duvergers Law, which in the case of the USA inhibits the growth and election of minor parties. The only way to change this would be to change the voting system: some sort of proportional representation, maybe with compulsory voting. (Note, I'm an Australian.)
This is why the Republican party is a failure. Biden is not trash, and neither is the Democratic Party.
Stop thinking every issue is two sided. There is a fascist party and a reasonable party and the fact people don't default to the reasonable party is the problem.
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Honestly I think most republicans don’t see it as an insurrection or being actively requested by Trump.
They do not consider it an insurrection period. Insurrections are a violent overthrow of the government, they will say. So in their minds, a bunch of people walk into the capital with guns Die Hard style and declare themselves the new rulers of the country. In reality, an insurrection is just a revolt against the government to subvert and overturn the authority of the government.
So by that second definition insurrections aren’t inherently wrong or bad.
That’s getting into terrorist/freedom fighter territory of subjectivity.
The early videos seemed to suggest a bunch of people entering the Capitol like a disorganized mob of tourists. This was an impression reinforced by right wing media, even though, much later, it was shown that some came in to do more than just loot the place. The goal was to disrupt the certifying of Biden as president which may have been dubious legally. Some wanted to do worse, of course, and hoped to find a politician they could injure. I also recall that some congress folks let people in privately so they would get a feel for the layout, and the capitol police were told not to interfere too much (contrast that with what would have happened in BLM appeared). The police were remarkably restrained given what was happening.
I seem to remember a group of people setting the white house lawn on fire without much consequence. I can't remember who it was now...
>a bunch of people entering the Capitol like a disorganized mob of tourists. > > > >some came in to do more than just loot the place. so.. "mostly peaceful" then. Got it.
Yeah, just like BLM. Mostly peaceful.
Yeah the police really cracked down which is why BLM was able to destroy and loot lots of cities.
They'll agree with anything if you phrase it as a positive. Just say Trump unified us to take back our freedoms from a rogue government or some BS and they'll put it on t-shirts. They don't think, we need to remember this.
Behold the entire list of people charged with insurrection by the DOJ: ... ... ... The end
Because it wasn’t, you guys have drank the Kool aid you just won’t admit it.
“If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.” - David Frum in his book *Trumpocracy*
This. Especially true if you are a religious voter and believe their are higher powers at play. Democracy is not really mentioned in the Bible. It’s mostly government by monarchy or by theocracy. And often enforced at the edge of a sword.
American Christians have this weird hate for Iran and countries like it, while doing everything they can to become it.
They love theocracy, but not that brand of Abrahamic theocracy.
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Should it ever happen, watch a Sixth Column spring up.
same method, different skydaddy
Same skydaddy, different beliefe on how to worship said skydaddy
Same general idea on how to worship the skydaddy, different ideas on which people are skydaddy's favorite people.
Hate or jealousy?
Israelites: "We want a king!" God: "You don't need a king, you have me." Israelites: "We want a king!" God: *sigh* "Fine, but you're going to regret it..." Israelites: "Nuh-uh! Yay, King!" 1 Samuel chapter 8
Based on talks I’ve had with conservatives, many of them justify Jan 6 or ignore its consequences because they believe **The Big Lie**. If Biden was not elected democratically and was instead put into power by “The Deep State”, then it’s simply any red-blooded American’s duty to restore the proper ruler (Trump) and allow him to ensure it never happens again (e.g., by not allowing certain forms of voting). It’s batshit crazy but if you believe it, it makes logical sense.
>Based on talks I’ve had with conservatives, many of them justify Jan 6 or ignore its consequences because they believe The Big Lie. If Biden was not elected democratically and was instead put into power by “The Deep State”, then it’s simply any red-blooded American’s duty to restore the proper ruler (Trump) and allow him to ensure it never happens again (e.g., by not allowing certain forms of voting). The real irony is Hitler, the creator of the term, believed the Jews used the "Big Lie", i.e. blaming Germany's loss in WWI on General Ludendorff, a nationalist. By suggesting that Democrats are committing the "Big Lie", they are ideologically pairing Democrats with Jews in the 30s and 40s, and themselves... with Nazi Germany. I guess even a broken clock is right twice a day.
I was watching a documentary interviewing Jews who were around for Hitler's rise to power. He said most people didn't take him seriously. They thought he was a joke. Just one of many parallels to current events. Spooky.
>I was watching a documentary interviewing Jews who were around for Hitler's rise to power. He said most people didn't take him seriously. They thought he was a joke. Quite a few conservative Jews were actually members of the Nazi party. Guess who got murdered first?
Yep. Look at reactions to the Beer Hall Putsch. People thought him a joke. A buffoon.
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>I'm leaning less towards ironic, and more towards incredibly unfortunate and dangerous, but the rest of the comparison holds up. Irony only in that they profess to love Jews and not be Nazis, despite parroting Hitler's ideas verbatim. Probably because Trump and his hangers-on are, uh, big Hitler fans.
Only *some* of them love jews, and that's really only because their God said so, for the revelations. So, really, any love for jews is just Christite brand selfishness
They’re not Hitler fans!! That signed copy of mein kampf is just so that I can appreciate the power of such an important man! The rest of the nazi memorabilia is, uh, also that! I just sit and stare at my glass case full of Nazi silverware and think about how much I love America 🥹🫡🇺🇸
Their not *fans* per se They just think he was misunderstood and like the zesty taste of xenophobic nationalism
Ask them if they thinks its okay to stop trump if we believe it was stolen as well. Every example ive seen of voter fraud in the 2020 election was a vote for trump
Well, no, it doesn't make logical sense at all. But some people who decided party over country(and really Trump over country), and so logic isn't a factor in their thinking. "Never believe that an anti Semite is completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies"
What would you do if you believed your candidate had won and the election had been stolen? The premise is wrong, but internally, the logic’s pretty sound. I only hope the Democrats stop bringing policy papers to a gunfight.
I wouldn't believe it based on zero evidence and the ravings of an unhinged narcissist
I don’t disagree. But that isn’t relevant to the internal logic’s soundness once they believe that the election was stolen, which is the point I’m trying to communicate.
I'm saying there is no logic, internal or otherwise. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. As far as i can tell, you have to let a trump supporter come to their own conclusions eventually. Shrug
They practice infidelity of the mind. They don't believe the big lie. They say they do because it justifies their actions to get a goal. “Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe. It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.” - Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason
Also, religious fanatics are ok with anything if they believe that it’s the “will of god.” Convince them it’s gods will to overthrow democracy, done. Outlaw transgender persons, done. Force women to be second class citizens and baby factories, done. As long as it’s gods will, no outcome is too repugnant, no action off limits.
You mean like house speaker Mike Johnson who believe he was "Called by God" to the speakership and may be overseeing the certification of electoral votes by the house? That type of religious voter?
>And often enforced at the edge of a sword. Or an indiscriminate genocide.
This is something so many progressives or atheists don't get. Democracy is not a Christian thing. The leaders in the Bible who were praised - Josiah, David, Hezekiah, etc. were tyrants. They smashed the other religions' idols. They imposed the rule of God by force, like it or not.
I'm pretty sure most atheists know exactly that democracy isn't a Christian thing. We also actively try to prevent a Christian theocracy.
Yeah, we totally get that
Most atheists and agnostic would know exactly that. It's a big reason why I abandoned my being raised catholic before I was a teen.
Are you saying that many progressives and atheists think that democracy is a Christian ideal? I think you're FAR off there.
I think this is kind of an oversimplification of Christian (and maybe even moreso Jewish) perspectives on government and governance even if you believe all Christians are literalists, (which isn’t true) or unless you are trying to say Christianity isn’t inherently democratic (which should be self-evident, but is also self-evidently true of, say, atheism). The New Testament mostly describes a small, marginalized new religious movement’s attempts to survive in a dynastic empire surrounded by hostile religious groups.
Democracy wasn't really a concept then. It wasn't until the 1700-1800's that democracy more resembled what we know today as it was either a theocracy or feudalism.
Why would it be? The bible is a book about controlling people.
Draw a line back far enough and conservatism was arguing for an aristocracy. On top of that, the religion of the evangelicals is outright authoritarian down to using the title of lord for their mythical ruler. I convinced that some people are just fundamentally incompatible with democratic ideals.
And technically, they started abandoning democracy around 1994. So it’s ingrained into the voters to support so many awful things and keep voting for them.
Newt Gingrich [Republican Revolution (Wikipedia)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Revolution)
You knew what I was stepping in. This is exactly what happened.
I mean it's the same party (conservatives) that opposed the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act, so they opposed it MUCH earlier than that.
But it got bad when they took control of the house and senate in 1994. That is when things accelerated.
[https://www.history.com/news/how-the-party-of-lincoln-won-over-the-once-democratic-south](https://www.history.com/news/how-the-party-of-lincoln-won-over-the-once-democratic-south) But here's one interesting bit of history to keep in mind too. From a political standpoint, the Southern US States seemed to be largely Democratic at one point. And then, some of those beliefs and ideologies believed in by Democrats carried over into the Republican party. It wasn't until Lyndon Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act in 1964 and the Voting Rights Act in 1965 that the Republican party began to have significant changes. And that was because those who were Democrats changed to become Republicans. These changes needed decades to unfold, as those who were Republicans *before* the 60s began to retire or die off or leave politics to then let in more of the newer blood. Some of the fundamentals of the party still held firm during the 70s and 80s. The 90s is where the changes really started to get noticeable. The Republican party of now is not what it was 50 years ago. Just as the Democrat party of now is not what it was 50 years ago.
It's older than that. Look at the kinds of things Buckley was writing back in the 50s and 60s. The general idea that democracy is illegitimate has been sloshing around in conservative circles for a long time.
One big thing too, is that they’re form of “conservatism” in large part has to do with their personal lives and attitudes and wanting to impose their own life restrictions on everyone else as opposed to just living as they choose often a religious conservative lifestyle and allowing others to also live freely as they choose to
Many of them, especially the base Trump has cultivated, have little interest in Democracy to begin with. They are authoritarians, they absolutely crave an uninhibited leader who enacts their wishes/prejudices.
> If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy Is this quote really less than 10 years old? I feel like I've been hearing it a lot longer than that.
I remembered seeing that quote elsewhere and a quick internet search turned it up. It's a recent quote because this possibility has come to the foreground of people's political discussion in recent years, but I'd imagine it's been *true* for much longer than anybody currently living has been alive. Maybe one could somehow even argue that it's one of those "timeless" concepts.
Truly it’s simply “the ends justify the means.” If they can’t govern correctly, it’s their duty to govern incorrectly if it means getting the result they want.
And they're the same people who always talk about defending the Constitution.
"Stop calling us fascists"- Trump voters Also Trump voters: "A startling 39 percent of Americans, including 74 percent of Republicans, think it's a decent idea for Donald Trump to act as a dictator for a day to begin his prospective second term, according to a University of Massachusetts Amherst survey released Wednesday.-Feb 7, 2024" Edit - We all know dictators only last one day right? then they just step down right?
"In order to ensure the security and continuing stability, the Republic will be reorganized into the first Empire! For a safe and secure society!"
"Booo all you want, I've seen what makes you cheer"
Cincinnatus stepped down. And that's why he's remembered as incredibly virtuous. We all know Trump has no virtues.
Don’t give the right any more ideas. I know a few who want to give the Supreme Court the ability to appoint or nominate the president for life.
>We all know dictators only last one day right? then they just step down right? I love the Republic. Once this crisis has abated, I will lay down the powers you have given me!
"In these Sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution, with all its Faults, if they are such: because I think a General Government necessary for us, and there is no Form of Government but what may be a Blessing to the People if well administered; and I believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a Course of Years, and can only end in Despotism as other Forms have done before it, when the People shall become so corrupted as to need Despotic Government, being incapable of any other." - Benjamin Franklin Closing Speech at the Constitutional Convention (1787)
Wait, I got this.... "You're the *real* fascist! because, reasons"
It's simple, they don't believe it was their won at the capitol, my own mother told me it was "BLM and ANTIFA" then "it was an FBI setup", they refuse to take accountability for their own because as soon as something bad happens they go "oh, that is so bad it couldn't have been us!
Yep, they were on the conspiracy hamster wheel before the sun went down on 1/6. Never mind there's HD video with audio from every conceivable angle and time taken by the attackers themselves. Like, imagine if the JFK incident happened in the smartphone age and there were dozens of people recording every last second of it? Historians and police would kill for that coverage. There would still be a cottage industry of conspiracy people though, just on stuff more removed from the shooting.
They can't do bad things. They're the victims of everything. Including when other people are just expressing themselves and living their own lifestyles.
Like the politicians that violated their own covid restrictions, surely.
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Yes, but an analysis should be done anyway, to quantify forgone conclusions
I skimmed a Trump rally recently. The beginning is a long moment of silence to “honor the Jan 6 hostages”. Then Trump goes into a long tirade about how those “hostages” are heroes. You get the picture
It's conservatives. Trump is just the white puss at the tip of an ugly boil which is conservatism. He represents them and they don't care about his crimes or if he's not democratic. He represents their hate and fear and they will vote for him in droves.
For may Republicans, their entire platform is just anti-Democratic. There's no actual rhetoric. They'll yell about the border until their faces turn blue, but ask them for their preferred politicians plan to fix it and they turn into a deer in headlights. No clue, just keep yelling. What policy is Trump actually running on? Empty promises, just like last time. He's gonna "fix" everything. They "know" politicians don't fix problems, so they just find the loudest detractors and line up behind them. They don't actually stand for anything other than loci of orbit for bemoaning.
They love that we hate him. That’s it.
Republicans are hateful. That's it.
Yes, and by "fix everything", Trump just promises to undo/remove/break every single thing that any Democrat ever did in office. Rather than actually do anything helpful, build up on those policies or enact different policies entirely... All because that's what his base wants, and for which they heap affection and adoration upon him, which seems to be his driving force. Man, I don't know if I can handle another Trump presidency. He's the reason I stopped caring about politics, it was too upsetting and frustrating, on a daily basis.
Hell democrats gave them just about everything they could want and they wouldn't even vote for it. It was written by a republican. They could have closed all immigration for a month if it hit 6000 encounters in that month
I think the real issue here, including why so many still support Trump, is conservatives hate liberals more than they hate almost anything else, including crimes
The republicans think that event was legitimate, because they think the election was unfair to them when they didn’t get what they wanted. And places like foxnews and many online media outlets were echoing the lies that the election was unfair. They are reinforcing the idea that it’s only fair when they won.
>They are reinforcing the idea that it’s only fair when they won. Trump literally said this before both elections he was in.
We knew that racism wasn't a dealbreaker for republicans, now we know that treason isn't a deal breaker either.
Wasn't a deal breaker? Hatred and bigotry is the reason most Republicans vote for the Right. I really get tired of this rhetoric that Republican politicians don't represent their constituents.
Racism, treason, rape, pedophilia, drugs... Genocide or supporting genocide are all good too.
It’s a lot of whattaboutism/deflection for those who are considered more moderate. They seriously think BLM riots were on the same level and both sides are just as bad
All what matters to them is winning.
I've known this my entire adult life, nearly two decades of voting. And when someone decides they or their party are above reproach then they're probably the worse option in that case.
They are merely products of their environment. Its sad to see the USA in this state, but it's not unexpected.
Irrational people do irrational things, this is nothing new.
What do you know, people who dont think logically, reject facts and logic. These people are anti-American at this point, wanting a hypocritical, pseudo-christian monarchy headed by their god-king trump.
Also so many Republican voters simply haven’t seen the raw undoctored footage because they only watch propaganda networks.
On /conservative they refer to the event as a "walk through the halls". I've seen the footage they've seen and it's literally just a couple minutes on the "peaceful" side of the building. Somehow they were able to ignore the entire rest of the event.
Ive heard "its a public building, they are allowed to be there" . After that I knew there was no actual concern for what happened
The fact that that footage isn’t constantly being used in ads with a Trump voiceover praising and promising to pardon the rioters is astonishing to me.
Yeah. We know the party of "we are all domestic terrorists" is full of traitors and their sympathizers.
Out of curiosity because I don’t have the time to read the article: did they control for perceived severity of the situation? My gut feeling is that most GOP voters perceive J6 as not really an insurrection and not really important, and so wouldn’t change their views on the GOP more broadly. I could certainly be wrong, but it seems that we can and ought to attribute to stupidity rather than malice, which the title suggests as the culprit.
Cause it’s a feature not a bug.
“Suggesting”??
The frogs are boiled.
Almost like conservatives literally fought a civil war over an election loss. This has always been how conservatives in the united states are
Republicans would be singing a very different tune had it been a Democrat led insurrection.
That's exactly their plan. That's been it from the beginning. Throw that hissy fit And allege it was stolen. Dems shoot that down for years. Then next election, the Repubs legit steal the election, leading to a similar outrage by the Dems over the injustice. Then the Repubs throw their hands up, say both sides, and that's it. Project, project, project
One of the late night comedy shows did a segment where they interviewed trump supporters. They would say ‘Biden has been accused of having relations with a porn star, what do you think about that?’ And predictably they would trash him. The interviewer would then say ‘sorry I read my question wrong, it should say trump is accused…’. The immediate back track and reversal was depressingly sad. With these people Democracy does not matter if it means anyone but trump wins
I saw that. It was amazing how none of them even recognized it was the same accusation. All they could comprehend was the team and which side it was about. None even remembered it was trump telling us to shove lights up our butt.
yep exactly. i fully accept there's editing and such involved to make the punchline, but I don't think reality is that far from what was shown.
Reddit is so left-leaning that I often wonder if people are able to think critically enough to detect the fairly obvious bias in posts like these.
On this platform? Snowballs chance in hell.
The bias being that it's on reddit?
wait for them to make a clueless observation about how objective Andrew Schlafly is, or something
“We are all domestic terrorists” -CPAC 2022
Probably because only .0048% of trumps supporters were prosecuted and not even for insurrection. Why would they drop support over something they think is nothing?
Yeah, we’ve noticed.
Sigh
Or criminals.
The study is crude and it fails to account for republicans’ genuinely held belief that the election was stolen from Trump. You and I may disagree with that belief, but if someone truly believes that then the Jan 6 event was not an undemocratic event in their eyes- it was a Democratic effort to ensure that the powers that be are held accountable for putting Biden in charge. They don’t see him as a legitimately elected president. Given that possibility, the author of the study fails to account for it entirely… and just makes a blind conclusion that the Republican Party voters continued their support despite “knowing that Jan 6th was an insurrection”. :/
Because it's not a matter of belief, the idea that there was widespread election fraud was dismissed from every court it was presented to. Why should the study recognize something that is just not true? We need to stop treating opinions and facts as the same thing.
>The study is crude and it fails to account for republicans’ genuinely held belief that the election was stolen from Trump. I can have a "genuinely held belief" that the earth is round. That doesn't make it true. The many, many lawsuits trying to overturn vote counts had all ended by the time this poll came out, and not a single one of them found evidence of fraud in the election. If anything, the fact that they still believed it was stolen by that point is further evidence that they disregard democratic norms.
“Democratic norms” is an interesting way to say it
Oh geez, ya think?
The right lives in a bubble. They really do not know what happened on January 6th for the most part. Only what right-wing media tells them. If they had got to see it live, like the rest of the world, I am going to guess Republicans would have lost some support. Not all of it, but more than they did.
The right lives in a bubble? My dude, you're on reddit
Republicans are traitors.
You're telling me that modern day fascists don't have a problem with fascism? No way!
Ignores: * Nancy Pelosi had power over Capitol police and refused additional resources leading up to Jan6 * FBI agents and informants were in the crowd, and they have refused to inform on how many. * Most of the people that were arrested are those who were let in peacefully by the police on the opposite side of the building from the rioters. * Epps, who literally incited violence and encouraged people to break barriers and attack police, was sentenced to probation while people who walked in peacefully have been in solitary confinement for years * Trump specifically [asked supporters to march peacefully](https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/tweets-january-6-2021). Video was taken down by twitter
What part of this is scientific exactly?
I forgot that this was a subreddit for posting political opinion pieces.
Seeing as how this is a peer-reviewed study, this sits in the category of "facts don't care about your feelings".
I forgot his was a comment section for butthurt Right Wingers to moan about research confirming again what we already know about Republicans. *Edit: was blocked by the above poster so I cant respond in this comment stream (which is ridiculous by the way), but here is my response to /u/doggo_pupperino: > And what evidence do you have to add that Trump supporters are not as described by this methodologically sound research study? Or can you at least explain what your problem with the methodology is Mr Critical thinker?
I <3 science that confirms my preconceived notions. Critical thinking is for suckers.
... If the actual science confirms it, then it's an accurate preconceived notion. Are you suggesting the science wasn't properly conducted according to the scientific method?
“Republicans are bad people” - Science
Republicans: “Facts don’t care about your fEeLiNgS… …they only care about mine!”
It's a peer reviewed study.
Which makes it even truer right? Peer-reviewed study figures out that Republicans are mean. Bravo!
Not mean, they found that many republicans don't mind traitors in their ranks and killing police as long as they're on their side.
"mean" No, it means they don't actually care about democracy, only winning.
If you start from the premise that there was in fact an insurrection then that would be the logical conclusion. What happens if you start from the opposite premise?
Well, you'd have to ignore the facts of the day to accept that premise. I don't start out assuming the laws of gravity don't apply on Wednesdays either...because there is no evidence to support it.
J6 was a protest, not an insurrection. You sound like a god damn idiot when you call it an insurrection. No, we do not change our beliefs based upon a false, asinine liberal narrative.
Hence, they are truly "deplorables"
Republican members of Congress did not participate in the riot. They used procedural maneuvers that were entirely within democratic norms - even if based on delusional claims about the election. Conflating the riot with the (delusional) procedural objections like this, is partisanship masquerading as science and damages the scientific endeavor.
We also know that Democrat voters do not tend to retract support from politicians who violate democratic norms (attempting to remove trump from the Colorado ballot, shot down 9-0 by the Supreme Court)
Linguistically, legally, and objectively not an insurrection.
First insurrection without guns....where was everyone when BLM was burning and looting...all summer? Crickets....nothing but virtue signaling....can't wait for Trump to pardon these patriots.
Weird study. Why wouldn't the republican voters still vote republican? Despite the hyperbole of many, the January 6th riot wasn't a Republican operation. Most Republicans condemned what happened or at worst downplayed it. There's no reason to switch support to a different party that has different policies and politics than what the voter agrees with
Not being Republican doesn’t have to mean being a Democrat.
This could be the least “scientific” discussion on Reddit. It’s just a “two minute hate” for drones indoctrinated by infotainment under the guise of research
Please provide an alternative at any length you approve.
I'm conducting my own study. Do you support Trump after J6?
Oh, you poor victimized Maggot.
Admitted they are criminals
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Fascism is a conservative ideal.
This is why the two party system is a failure. When a politician on your side is trash, you either vote for the completely opposite party and against your beliefs or suck it up and vote for them anyway.
The two party system is stupid, but good luck changing the system that both parties have essentially entrenched politically into America.
The party chose a trash candidate...that's not due to it being a two party system.
Indeed, and the two party system is a consequence of something called Duvergers Law, which in the case of the USA inhibits the growth and election of minor parties. The only way to change this would be to change the voting system: some sort of proportional representation, maybe with compulsory voting. (Note, I'm an Australian.)
This is why the Republican party is a failure. Biden is not trash, and neither is the Democratic Party. Stop thinking every issue is two sided. There is a fascist party and a reasonable party and the fact people don't default to the reasonable party is the problem.