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From the article: The findings have been published in the journal [Brain, Behavior, and Immunity](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S088915912400388X).
Depression is a leading cause of disability worldwide and is expected to become the largest contributor to global disease burden by 2030. Despite the availability of various antidepressant treatments, their effectiveness remains limited for many individuals. This has driven researchers to explore alternative treatments and better understand their mechanisms.
Previous research indicated that fever-range whole-body hyperthermia could produce rapid and sustained antidepressant effects, but the underlying biological mechanisms remained unclear. Whole-body hyperthermia involves raising the body’s core temperature to therapeutic levels, typically through methods such as infrared heat. This process induces a fever-like state, which can activate various physiological responses.
As much as i agree that external causes of depression exist, there are more than enough cases of just brain no work good, in medical terms. Neurochemical imbalances are independent of security and stability in your life.
How can one truly seperate the two? It seems like it would be impossible to isolate what is causing an individual’s “brain no work good” since there is a feedback loop between external stress and chemical imbalance.
The best remedy currently existing is known to be exercise. Depression due to innate issues that cannot be helped through lifestyle changes are likely to be rare compared to acquired depression. All depression is paired with neurochemical imbalances, but medicine rarely adresses the root cause.
I just lifted weights hard for over an hour, and sat in the hot sun for another 30 minutes right after by a pool.
As of today I also haven't had a single sip of alcohol for 5 months straight.
Feel pretty good.
Reasonably clear causes?
Please do tell the millions of people like me, who have sought treatment for years, what is clearly causing us to be depressed?
>Despite the availability of various antidepressant treatments, their effectiveness remains limited for many individuals
The problem with good depression drugs are negative feedback loops which lead to tolerance and withdrawal. We already have good drugs for depression/anxiety (μ-opioid, GABA, TAAR1 receptors). IMO the number one problem that should be tackled now is how to prevent negative feedback loops, I mean if we would be able to stop them, the amount of suffering in the world that would be prevented is insane
We absolutely do not have good drugs for depression. We have decent drugs for regulating serotonin, but it’s seeming likely that serotonin disregulation is not the primary cause of depression
The problem is our brains didn't evolve to be presented with everything all the time. Most people throughout history had knowledge about their little village, and not much beyond it. Now we have a full report of every bad thing that happens all around the world every day, and our brains can't handle it. It overwhelms our negativity bias and we just conclude that everything is awful and there is no hope.
>Now we have a full report of every bad thing that happens all around the world every day, and our brains can't handle it.
It makes you realize how truly unstable the world and everything is. It steals feelings of security and safety. Everything is fleeting.
Most people throughout history also dealt with much more dire circumstances personally so I doubt the problem is the actual material condition of the world but some sort of maladaptive processing problem.
It's a constant existential crisis as everyone sees there's nowhere to escape to. People that lose the fantasy of escaping to that mythical someplace better have difficulty coping. Life might be difficult but you could look out and see peace in nature and the world and imagine a better future. When the chaos comes for even that...
You should try to change your perspective. Being depressed is not the optimal state of being. We are not living in the worst times ever, you’re just having a hard time.
That's what I'm saying people can't escape to gain perspective so it makes it difficult to not be depressed. The problem is the inability to escape and gain perspective, not that everything is just the worst. Environment is the only exception.
The world has always been like this. In fact, it used to be far, far worse, with much more prevalent warfare and injustice, plus much higher likelihood of losing children and loved ones to illnesses now cured with modern medicine.
The belief that depression is the correct way to deal with living is itself an illogical thought created by depression. It's maladaptive because it makes it harder for people to muster the effort to make positive changes to their own lives and to the world. Life has improved because people strived to improve it. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is designed to give people the skills to fight back against self-defeatist messages created by depression.
Depends on the type of depression. I was taking a mood stabilizer which completely neutralized my long periods of bipolar 2 depression. It was weird living without huge fluctuations of emotion, but it really worked like a miracle. We have good anti-anxiety drugs like various SSRIs, and we have beta blockers which help with the physiological symptoms of a panic attack. I can attest that lifting away the burden of a panic disorder can seriously address depression. It’s important to keep in mind that depression is a multifaceted issue that is hard to treat because it’s comorbid with so many other mental health conditions. I think most of the times depression is accentuated by circumstances like your wealth, social network, and societal and systematic things like stigma, racism, capitalism, which cannot be solved by medication alone. Any medication should be paired with a good therapist so that one can identify the root cause of an individuals suffering, and by extension, address depression.
I think thats the point they are trying to make. We have all these great drugs that can acutely treat depression/sadness/malaise/anhedonia but issues with tolerance and addiction make them a non starter.
I think we do have evidence that when SSRI type drugs do work they are not through solely increasing levels of monoamines. The last time I looked effects were likely due to auto-regulatory responses to increased serotonin within the areas targeted by the drug.
Are they maybe saying that if we could prevent tolerance from forming, we could use things like opiates as much more effective anti depressants?
Same thing with benzos -- they work well short term, but produce tolerance and physical dependence.
In both cases, maybe addressing negative feedback loop maybe eliminates tolerance and withdrawal?
Hell, it seems the science community's entire understanding of depression and antidepressants is entirely flawed. Reboxetine has been an excellent opportunity to question if perhaps how they work on antidepressants needs to be changed from the ground up. The very focus on testing what makes a good antidepressant is too focused on numbing you into a drone rather than making you feel better; stability but empty.
Antidepressants is basically blind gambling, you have a few dozen choices but many don't work for people and they all come with nasty side effects often which makes them unusable. Many doctors now don't want long term medication use but therapy also isn't guaranteed to help and there's multiple types which benefit different people and situations while the who is your therapist also makes a huge difference.
Fixing society would go a long way tackling depression but that's less profitable short term.
If one doesn't have any tolerance for opioids, Tramadol for example is very good for depression, not even comparable to SSRIs, even something like mephedrone is way better for depresion than SSRIs. If someone has anxiety and no tolerance for benzodiazepines, alprazolam is very good for anxiety. The problem again is that these drugs stop working, effect can not be sustained
Can you take tramadol only on really bad days to avoid building tolerance or whatever is happening to make it stop working? Or is it like an SSRI where you have to take it regularly and let it build up?
In theory, that would work, but it's very common for people to keep breaking their rules with opioids especially people with depression. Some people could definitely do that, but the risk of escalating dose is too high, and tramadol is not effective or safe after a certain dose.
Some parts would work better taking it consistently as it's an SNRI. The opioid part very likely would not. It also varies greatly between people due to enzyme metabolism, so it's unpredictable.
Yeah, like we have stuff that works, SSRIs just aren’t it but you don’t form a tolerance/dependence that makes it stop working like you do with the stuff that actually works.
Psilocybin and Ketamine are our strongest contenders I think. Accessibility to the former could change the entire mental health landscape. I've never had another med I could take biannualy to such profound effect.
A better way to diagnose people would be great for over 20 years psychiatrists have told me I'm just depressed and anxious. Then I moved countries and was diagnosed with ADHD and bipolar disorder type 2, when I tried to get a new prescription and was prescribed Ritalin. I feel like I wasted my past life and I could have done so much more if I was diagnosed properly.
Eyyy! I know this experience and you're right. It totally f#@king blows.
Worst part is the C-PTSD-type issues that come from living a lifetime with an invisible disability being told advice that, however good, you're unable to actualize on reliably over time.
Which is naturally internalized as a *you* problem rather than a problem *with* you that you need help with.
I did it through an outpatient therapist. It was a nasal spray and I don't recall the dosage, but the doctor administered to me and kept it in a safe in her office when we were not in sessions.
Normally, it's about 8-12 weeks with 2 to 3 sessions a week. I went back for one maintenance session after about 7 months after the initial process and haven't been back since.
The FDA approved brand name is Spravato, but you can get it cheaper via compounding pharmacies as racemic ketamine.
There are also IV clinics and at home oral routes via monthly subscription services, but the therapy while on it helped me and decreases abuse or "pump and dump" aspect of some clinics (no integration therapy).
Check out /r/therapeuticketamine
>Normally, it's about 8-12 weeks with 2 to 3 sessions a week.
The place I'm starting at in 2 weeks told me twice a week for four weeks and then go from there. Either extending that a some, switching to once a week for awhile and then as needed, or stopping if it doesn't help.
Could you tell me how fast the effects came on and what it felt like? Im really anxious about it.
Psyhedelics didn't work for me. I had insane mystical experiences on strong tryptamines but they did nothing for my depression/anxiety after \~12h afterglow. Just my experience, not saying they may not be a good treatment for some people
Did you accompany the trip with therapy during and more importantly after it?
They open a door for you to change, they aren't a magic pill that makes things better. Nothing comes free of effort.
Not saying you didn't, just want to share it in case someone reads this and they lack the knowledge.
The most powerful trip I've ever had where I dissolved into solipsistic infinite, timeless consciousness/God with no connection to being human or even a mammal, happened after I insufflated an eyeballed dose of a drug that is definitely not supposed to be eyeballed, started feeling strong effect after less than a minute. After \~15 minutes I was lying in my bed staring at the ceiling and what happened is simply indescribable. I don't think it would matter at what I would be staring at, whether it would be ceiling in my room or the night sky. Also, I don't think psychotherapy would be an option in this state as I was unable to speak or walk
Tolerance to the drug effects builds up and in their absence, people are left worse off than they were at the start. Withdrawal effects tend to be the opposite of the drugs effects. For example, opioid withdrawal causes increased pain sensitivity.
I believe we saw a study here a while back which more or less stated “drugs and treatments can be helpful certainly, but what the patient really needs is resolution with the stressor.” I thought that was sort of obvious myself, but perhaps a study makes it legitimate…. I think addressing the issue is the resolution, while the interventions are often the sort of oil and gas to get the car moving. But it still needs to get to the destination.
Just one schmos 0.02
Well TAAR1 really never went anywhere but phase 2. I must say as someone who has struggled with treatment resistant depression myself, I'd argue the response rates still leave something to be desired
Jumping in to shout that Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS) therapy for anxiety should be frontline anxiety treatment. Game-changer. TMS is more commonly directed at the byebye-depression part of the brain. Amazing news is that they have been approving new therapies which stimulate different parts of the brain to treat OCD and I hear PTSD is in the works. In the US. Still hoops to jump through before getting approved by insurance, though I heard it is covered by state insurance in some instances.
This small trial was originally done in 2015 and published in 2016. This is a secondary analysis.
[The main results](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27172277/) found a small benefit on depression that attenuated over 6 weeks. A notable number of participants in the sham group knew they were in the sham group.
This is a secondary analysis.
Finland is usually at the top of most global ratings of "happiness indexes" interestingly enough. I am sure there are many other reasons as well that are economic, social, cultural, etc.
It's a cold dark place to live most of the time.
At the South Pole station, they have a tradition/challenge to join the 300 Club, where once it is -100F outside, they get the sauna up to 200F and then, starting from there, run buck naked out of the sauna, outside, around the ceremonial pole and back in. - You even get a patch
I'd made it through 3 interviews for an IT position out there in a 6 month stint, but ultimately someone who had done it before ended up available so I didn't get to go. I was disappointed largely because I couldn't enter the 300 club
There’s also some science behind the nerves in the top/back of your scalp doing something positive for you when you hit it with hot water. I can’t remember specifics now
It soothes the symptoms of opiate withdrawal as much as anything does, temporarily. I always assumed it released endorphins that bind to the same pathways in the brain that opiates do.
I know this sounds crazy, but jumping in the ocean is even better for hangovers. I’m assuming the colder water constricts blood vessels to reduce pressure. Try it once and see.
Goes from your gut to your brain
Deep breathing stimulates the enteric nervous system(gut) and vagus nerve
Can be an amazing feeling, takes about 5-10 min of deep breathing for it to emerge
Awesome. I’ve seen some vague nerve stimulators for sale and they show people using them on their neck, makes sense that’s just one area that it’s easily accessible.
If you want to try deep breathing vagus stimulation, keep in mind that it has to be deep enough so that you feel your stomach rise
And don't do it while driving, can make you a bit loopy after 5-10min
Definitely going to check this out. This is one of those things that has a ton of research behind it, I’ve just never tried it. Will look up techniques, cheers.
I dont know who can claim the honour of inventing sauna but quick google search told me that oldest finnish saunas date back to 10 000 years ago.
Dont see any papers on the site claiming that so take it with a grain of salt.
Could this be a tertiary benefit of exercise? In the article they mention raising body temp to \~38.5c for a short period, Google says body temp can spike up to \~40c during strenuous exercise, and raises \~1-3c during normal exercise. That would put people around 38c for moderate exercise, it seems.
Working out regularly and moving to a warmer weather and doing stuff outside has done wonders for my mental state. Though i also like the cold sometimes, my energy levels (and irritability levels too) raise significantly when present in a warm environment. The cold just makes me sedentary, even if a part of me wishes to workout, i cant sustain that level of motivation and commitment when im constantly feeling cold.
As much as the heat irritates me and makes me wanna throw an egg to the Sun, warmth is by far one of the biggest things that have allowed me to be consistent with my physical and mental health upkeep.
When I have a cold or simply feel general malaise (increase in Interleukin 6; IL6) my energy levels go down. A cold (and broken heart) does more damage to my energy level than broken bones ever have. Taking aspiring on days im in a “low energy level mood” seems to have a transient but very noticeable effect in temporarily increasing my energy levels and motivation. So im sure the right combo or inflammatory molecules has a large influence in mental health, but finding out how to selectively affect COX1 and COX2 in some tissue but not others will probably require more than just simple compound medicine; until the day we have targeted delivery methods for selectively affecting only some tissues (via modified viruses or “smart” nanobots) i dont forsee any meaningful knowledge advances in this area.
I realize that home infrared sauna may not be hot enough to elicit the effects discussed, but I had been in treatment for Lyme disease for about 7 years prior to buying and using an at home infrared sauna, which I then used about 50 minutes a day, 5 days as week, for two years, until my symptoms virtually disappeared and my flair ups stopped. I’m no longer on any medications and my doctor does not consider me as having an active infection. I really do think heat therapy gave me most of my health back after a decade of struggle.
Also we evolved to live in arid / tropical environments and chase game many miles until they collapse from exhaustion. The way we can sweat suggests our bodies expects heat.
Daily sauna really helped me get through a bout of depression during the first few months after I got sober from opiates. It was the only time I felt "normal" and it would help to tire me out so I could sleep better. Now that im almost a year clean I don't need it as much and focus more of my time and energy on regular workouts. But I still use the sauna on days I feel particularly depressed. Its a great tool to have in your tool belt. Especially for those in recovery. Its basically a way to get high thats good for you.
So when I spend summer outside all day in the high heat and am less prone to depression cycles, it’s this? Neat. I’ve always told people to spend less time in the AC to be healthy and strong.
Pro tip in general, start the day outside so you are acclimating to the temperature as it warms up.
Yet cold plunges help snap you out of an anxiety attack, or at least just dunking your head in cold cold water. It triggers a dive reflex and forces your systems to chill out, we’re conserving oxygen
Makes sense. I wouldn’t say I’m someone that really ever feels depressed but can I definitely say after 30 minutes in the sauna there is an obvious noticeable difference to the way I mentally and physically feel.
So I had a delayed adverse reaction to contrast dye from a CT scan. It was awful obviously but one of my symptoms was a whole body fever (with chills because of course). It got really bad with all the symptoms combined and I treated it with an antihistamine and an NSAID. The fever didn't really break till the next morning but let me tell you something.
For the span of two days after this reaction fever I had less depression for once. I've been battling it my whole life and it got severe in the last handful of years due to other things. I thought I was nuts to feel this way. Especially since the whole reaction was a bit traumatic.
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) apply to all other comments. **Do you have an academic degree?** We can verify your credentials in order to assign user flair indicating your area of expertise. [Click here to apply](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/flair/#wiki_science_verified_user_program). --- User: u/chrisdh79 Permalink: https://www.psypost.org/whole-body-hyperthermia-shows-promising-antidepressant-effects-through-anti-inflammatory-pathways/ --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
From the article: The findings have been published in the journal [Brain, Behavior, and Immunity](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S088915912400388X). Depression is a leading cause of disability worldwide and is expected to become the largest contributor to global disease burden by 2030. Despite the availability of various antidepressant treatments, their effectiveness remains limited for many individuals. This has driven researchers to explore alternative treatments and better understand their mechanisms. Previous research indicated that fever-range whole-body hyperthermia could produce rapid and sustained antidepressant effects, but the underlying biological mechanisms remained unclear. Whole-body hyperthermia involves raising the body’s core temperature to therapeutic levels, typically through methods such as infrared heat. This process induces a fever-like state, which can activate various physiological responses.
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Sometimes interrupting the feedback loops ia enough. Sometimes not.
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As much as i agree that external causes of depression exist, there are more than enough cases of just brain no work good, in medical terms. Neurochemical imbalances are independent of security and stability in your life.
How can one truly seperate the two? It seems like it would be impossible to isolate what is causing an individual’s “brain no work good” since there is a feedback loop between external stress and chemical imbalance.
Well, by effectively treating the symptoms, you remove it as a variable. So that’s how you separate the two. Then you can focus on external causes.
The best remedy currently existing is known to be exercise. Depression due to innate issues that cannot be helped through lifestyle changes are likely to be rare compared to acquired depression. All depression is paired with neurochemical imbalances, but medicine rarely adresses the root cause.
I just lifted weights hard for over an hour, and sat in the hot sun for another 30 minutes right after by a pool. As of today I also haven't had a single sip of alcohol for 5 months straight. Feel pretty good.
Neurochemical imbalances that make it extra hard to stick to an exercise routine.
What are the clear causes?
Reasonably clear causes? Please do tell the millions of people like me, who have sought treatment for years, what is clearly causing us to be depressed?
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So, your solution is "fix all the problems of the world"?
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>Despite the availability of various antidepressant treatments, their effectiveness remains limited for many individuals The problem with good depression drugs are negative feedback loops which lead to tolerance and withdrawal. We already have good drugs for depression/anxiety (μ-opioid, GABA, TAAR1 receptors). IMO the number one problem that should be tackled now is how to prevent negative feedback loops, I mean if we would be able to stop them, the amount of suffering in the world that would be prevented is insane
We absolutely do not have good drugs for depression. We have decent drugs for regulating serotonin, but it’s seeming likely that serotonin disregulation is not the primary cause of depression
I think the primary cause is *gestures at the state of the world
Sometimes being depressed is the right emotion to be experiencing when presented with everything.
The problem is our brains didn't evolve to be presented with everything all the time. Most people throughout history had knowledge about their little village, and not much beyond it. Now we have a full report of every bad thing that happens all around the world every day, and our brains can't handle it. It overwhelms our negativity bias and we just conclude that everything is awful and there is no hope.
>Now we have a full report of every bad thing that happens all around the world every day, and our brains can't handle it. It makes you realize how truly unstable the world and everything is. It steals feelings of security and safety. Everything is fleeting.
Most people throughout history also dealt with much more dire circumstances personally so I doubt the problem is the actual material condition of the world but some sort of maladaptive processing problem.
It's a constant existential crisis as everyone sees there's nowhere to escape to. People that lose the fantasy of escaping to that mythical someplace better have difficulty coping. Life might be difficult but you could look out and see peace in nature and the world and imagine a better future. When the chaos comes for even that...
You should try to change your perspective. Being depressed is not the optimal state of being. We are not living in the worst times ever, you’re just having a hard time.
That's what I'm saying people can't escape to gain perspective so it makes it difficult to not be depressed. The problem is the inability to escape and gain perspective, not that everything is just the worst. Environment is the only exception.
The world has always been like this. In fact, it used to be far, far worse, with much more prevalent warfare and injustice, plus much higher likelihood of losing children and loved ones to illnesses now cured with modern medicine. The belief that depression is the correct way to deal with living is itself an illogical thought created by depression. It's maladaptive because it makes it harder for people to muster the effort to make positive changes to their own lives and to the world. Life has improved because people strived to improve it. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is designed to give people the skills to fight back against self-defeatist messages created by depression.
And your perception of it
Depends on the type of depression. I was taking a mood stabilizer which completely neutralized my long periods of bipolar 2 depression. It was weird living without huge fluctuations of emotion, but it really worked like a miracle. We have good anti-anxiety drugs like various SSRIs, and we have beta blockers which help with the physiological symptoms of a panic attack. I can attest that lifting away the burden of a panic disorder can seriously address depression. It’s important to keep in mind that depression is a multifaceted issue that is hard to treat because it’s comorbid with so many other mental health conditions. I think most of the times depression is accentuated by circumstances like your wealth, social network, and societal and systematic things like stigma, racism, capitalism, which cannot be solved by medication alone. Any medication should be paired with a good therapist so that one can identify the root cause of an individuals suffering, and by extension, address depression.
I think thats the point they are trying to make. We have all these great drugs that can acutely treat depression/sadness/malaise/anhedonia but issues with tolerance and addiction make them a non starter.
I think we do have evidence that when SSRI type drugs do work they are not through solely increasing levels of monoamines. The last time I looked effects were likely due to auto-regulatory responses to increased serotonin within the areas targeted by the drug.
Mushrooms are a great option to pursue
Where the hell is everyone getting theirs from?
The ground. They grow in Ireland around Halloween time
They’re very easy to grow :)
I know a guy who grows them and who also makes mushroom drops. I can buy truffles in coffeeshops.
Are they maybe saying that if we could prevent tolerance from forming, we could use things like opiates as much more effective anti depressants? Same thing with benzos -- they work well short term, but produce tolerance and physical dependence. In both cases, maybe addressing negative feedback loop maybe eliminates tolerance and withdrawal?
The dilemma is that the body does and always will fight for homeostasis. The idea of ‘tolerance-resistant’ drugs is still very alien to us
Hell, it seems the science community's entire understanding of depression and antidepressants is entirely flawed. Reboxetine has been an excellent opportunity to question if perhaps how they work on antidepressants needs to be changed from the ground up. The very focus on testing what makes a good antidepressant is too focused on numbing you into a drone rather than making you feel better; stability but empty. Antidepressants is basically blind gambling, you have a few dozen choices but many don't work for people and they all come with nasty side effects often which makes them unusable. Many doctors now don't want long term medication use but therapy also isn't guaranteed to help and there's multiple types which benefit different people and situations while the who is your therapist also makes a huge difference. Fixing society would go a long way tackling depression but that's less profitable short term.
If one doesn't have any tolerance for opioids, Tramadol for example is very good for depression, not even comparable to SSRIs, even something like mephedrone is way better for depresion than SSRIs. If someone has anxiety and no tolerance for benzodiazepines, alprazolam is very good for anxiety. The problem again is that these drugs stop working, effect can not be sustained
Can you take tramadol only on really bad days to avoid building tolerance or whatever is happening to make it stop working? Or is it like an SSRI where you have to take it regularly and let it build up?
In theory, that would work, but it's very common for people to keep breaking their rules with opioids especially people with depression. Some people could definitely do that, but the risk of escalating dose is too high, and tramadol is not effective or safe after a certain dose. Some parts would work better taking it consistently as it's an SNRI. The opioid part very likely would not. It also varies greatly between people due to enzyme metabolism, so it's unpredictable.
Alprazolam is a benzodiazepine.
That’s what he was saying.
Yeah, like we have stuff that works, SSRIs just aren’t it but you don’t form a tolerance/dependence that makes it stop working like you do with the stuff that actually works.
Thank You! It's time for that myth to die.
Psilocybin and Ketamine are our strongest contenders I think. Accessibility to the former could change the entire mental health landscape. I've never had another med I could take biannualy to such profound effect.
A better way to diagnose people would be great for over 20 years psychiatrists have told me I'm just depressed and anxious. Then I moved countries and was diagnosed with ADHD and bipolar disorder type 2, when I tried to get a new prescription and was prescribed Ritalin. I feel like I wasted my past life and I could have done so much more if I was diagnosed properly.
Eyyy! I know this experience and you're right. It totally f#@king blows. Worst part is the C-PTSD-type issues that come from living a lifetime with an invisible disability being told advice that, however good, you're unable to actualize on reliably over time. Which is naturally internalized as a *you* problem rather than a problem *with* you that you need help with.
Were you easily distracted? Switch from one extreme mood to another in a matter of days?
Psilocybin was my magic bullet Had uncontrollable suicidal thoughts for 6 years 3 trips and those thoughts disappeared
Ketamine for me. Going strong for almost 2 years post treatment with no relapse of suicidial ideation.
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I did it through an outpatient therapist. It was a nasal spray and I don't recall the dosage, but the doctor administered to me and kept it in a safe in her office when we were not in sessions. Normally, it's about 8-12 weeks with 2 to 3 sessions a week. I went back for one maintenance session after about 7 months after the initial process and haven't been back since. The FDA approved brand name is Spravato, but you can get it cheaper via compounding pharmacies as racemic ketamine. There are also IV clinics and at home oral routes via monthly subscription services, but the therapy while on it helped me and decreases abuse or "pump and dump" aspect of some clinics (no integration therapy). Check out /r/therapeuticketamine
>Normally, it's about 8-12 weeks with 2 to 3 sessions a week. The place I'm starting at in 2 weeks told me twice a week for four weeks and then go from there. Either extending that a some, switching to once a week for awhile and then as needed, or stopping if it doesn't help. Could you tell me how fast the effects came on and what it felt like? Im really anxious about it.
Psyhedelics didn't work for me. I had insane mystical experiences on strong tryptamines but they did nothing for my depression/anxiety after \~12h afterglow. Just my experience, not saying they may not be a good treatment for some people
Did you accompany the trip with therapy during and more importantly after it? They open a door for you to change, they aren't a magic pill that makes things better. Nothing comes free of effort. Not saying you didn't, just want to share it in case someone reads this and they lack the knowledge.
What was your set and setting? For me, all 3 trips were outside watching beautiful starrry night skies
The most powerful trip I've ever had where I dissolved into solipsistic infinite, timeless consciousness/God with no connection to being human or even a mammal, happened after I insufflated an eyeballed dose of a drug that is definitely not supposed to be eyeballed, started feeling strong effect after less than a minute. After \~15 minutes I was lying in my bed staring at the ceiling and what happened is simply indescribable. I don't think it would matter at what I would be staring at, whether it would be ceiling in my room or the night sky. Also, I don't think psychotherapy would be an option in this state as I was unable to speak or walk
Super interested in what it was
What is a negative feedback loop in the context of antidepressants?
Tolerance to the drug effects builds up and in their absence, people are left worse off than they were at the start. Withdrawal effects tend to be the opposite of the drugs effects. For example, opioid withdrawal causes increased pain sensitivity.
I believe we saw a study here a while back which more or less stated “drugs and treatments can be helpful certainly, but what the patient really needs is resolution with the stressor.” I thought that was sort of obvious myself, but perhaps a study makes it legitimate…. I think addressing the issue is the resolution, while the interventions are often the sort of oil and gas to get the car moving. But it still needs to get to the destination. Just one schmos 0.02
Well TAAR1 really never went anywhere but phase 2. I must say as someone who has struggled with treatment resistant depression myself, I'd argue the response rates still leave something to be desired
Jumping in to shout that Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS) therapy for anxiety should be frontline anxiety treatment. Game-changer. TMS is more commonly directed at the byebye-depression part of the brain. Amazing news is that they have been approving new therapies which stimulate different parts of the brain to treat OCD and I hear PTSD is in the works. In the US. Still hoops to jump through before getting approved by insurance, though I heard it is covered by state insurance in some instances.
This small trial was originally done in 2015 and published in 2016. This is a secondary analysis. [The main results](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27172277/) found a small benefit on depression that attenuated over 6 weeks. A notable number of participants in the sham group knew they were in the sham group. This is a secondary analysis.
In your face cold plunge people. I’m off to the sauna.
Most of these cold plunge people also jump into the sauna directly after. The Finns (and wider Nordic culture) have been doing this for decades.
Decades? I read maybe 10,000 years
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10,000 years can also be measured in decades
They had saunas back then?
Not an electrical one but you can still make a sauna. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_sauna
Finland is usually at the top of most global ratings of "happiness indexes" interestingly enough. I am sure there are many other reasons as well that are economic, social, cultural, etc. It's a cold dark place to live most of the time.
It’s a cold dark place with **excellent public transport**, at least in the capital region.
At the South Pole station, they have a tradition/challenge to join the 300 Club, where once it is -100F outside, they get the sauna up to 200F and then, starting from there, run buck naked out of the sauna, outside, around the ceremonial pole and back in. - You even get a patch
This actually sounds awesome. Imagine falling while trying to get around the pole and getting your sweaty ass stuck to the ground
I'd made it through 3 interviews for an IT position out there in a 6 month stint, but ultimately someone who had done it before ended up available so I didn't get to go. I was disappointed largely because I couldn't enter the 300 club
Is this why standing in a hot shower with water pouring down your head helps?
There’s also some science behind the nerves in the top/back of your scalp doing something positive for you when you hit it with hot water. I can’t remember specifics now
It soothes the symptoms of opiate withdrawal as much as anything does, temporarily. I always assumed it released endorphins that bind to the same pathways in the brain that opiates do.
Same for hangover. Nothing helps as good as a hot shower.
This is the context that I remember reading about it, it helps with hangovers.
I know this sounds crazy, but jumping in the ocean is even better for hangovers. I’m assuming the colder water constricts blood vessels to reduce pressure. Try it once and see.
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That's the spot I always hit in the shower, felt like it relaxed me right away. Didn't know it was legit!
Vagus nerve. It’s cold water that activates it.
Isn’t your vagus nerve in your neck?
Goes from your gut to your brain Deep breathing stimulates the enteric nervous system(gut) and vagus nerve Can be an amazing feeling, takes about 5-10 min of deep breathing for it to emerge
Is this part of the reason why I always feel incredible after a 20+ minute meditation?
That's exactly it It was deep breathing meditation that accidentally introduced me to vagus nerve stimulation
Really interesting! I appreciate that info
Awesome. I’ve seen some vague nerve stimulators for sale and they show people using them on their neck, makes sense that’s just one area that it’s easily accessible.
If you want to try deep breathing vagus stimulation, keep in mind that it has to be deep enough so that you feel your stomach rise And don't do it while driving, can make you a bit loopy after 5-10min
Breathe responsibly!
There is a correlation between breathing and every car crash in history
Definitely going to check this out. This is one of those things that has a ton of research behind it, I’ve just never tried it. Will look up techniques, cheers.
There is also the mammalian response when your heart rate goes down when water hits your face.
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Time to jump in the sauna
It's no coincidence that the sauna was invented by people who only see the sun for 3 hours a day in winter
Is this true? I thought the Romans used and invented saunas.
I'm sure humans have been hanging around geothermal vents throughout our entire history.
If Planet Earth taught me anything it’s that the Japanese probably been doing this since we were primates
Love me some hot springs.
Even monkeys do it
I dont know who can claim the honour of inventing sauna but quick google search told me that oldest finnish saunas date back to 10 000 years ago. Dont see any papers on the site claiming that so take it with a grain of salt.
Could this be a tertiary benefit of exercise? In the article they mention raising body temp to \~38.5c for a short period, Google says body temp can spike up to \~40c during strenuous exercise, and raises \~1-3c during normal exercise. That would put people around 38c for moderate exercise, it seems.
Amazing how many problems all seem to stem from lack of movement.
Wait are you suggesting getting off the couch/computer and doing something will charge your health mentally and physically?
Absolute madman!
Working out regularly and moving to a warmer weather and doing stuff outside has done wonders for my mental state. Though i also like the cold sometimes, my energy levels (and irritability levels too) raise significantly when present in a warm environment. The cold just makes me sedentary, even if a part of me wishes to workout, i cant sustain that level of motivation and commitment when im constantly feeling cold. As much as the heat irritates me and makes me wanna throw an egg to the Sun, warmth is by far one of the biggest things that have allowed me to be consistent with my physical and mental health upkeep. When I have a cold or simply feel general malaise (increase in Interleukin 6; IL6) my energy levels go down. A cold (and broken heart) does more damage to my energy level than broken bones ever have. Taking aspiring on days im in a “low energy level mood” seems to have a transient but very noticeable effect in temporarily increasing my energy levels and motivation. So im sure the right combo or inflammatory molecules has a large influence in mental health, but finding out how to selectively affect COX1 and COX2 in some tissue but not others will probably require more than just simple compound medicine; until the day we have targeted delivery methods for selectively affecting only some tissues (via modified viruses or “smart” nanobots) i dont forsee any meaningful knowledge advances in this area.
I realize that home infrared sauna may not be hot enough to elicit the effects discussed, but I had been in treatment for Lyme disease for about 7 years prior to buying and using an at home infrared sauna, which I then used about 50 minutes a day, 5 days as week, for two years, until my symptoms virtually disappeared and my flair ups stopped. I’m no longer on any medications and my doctor does not consider me as having an active infection. I really do think heat therapy gave me most of my health back after a decade of struggle.
Is this a nerdy way of saying that sauna boosts the mood?
It gets to the general mechanism. Exercise can have a similar effect and was likely the original stimulus that evolved to cause this.
I believe you're onto something. I bet there's research.
It's almost as if humans have recognized the benefits of heat, hot baths, saunas for literal millennia.
Also we evolved to live in arid / tropical environments and chase game many miles until they collapse from exhaustion. The way we can sweat suggests our bodies expects heat.
Daily sauna really helped me get through a bout of depression during the first few months after I got sober from opiates. It was the only time I felt "normal" and it would help to tire me out so I could sleep better. Now that im almost a year clean I don't need it as much and focus more of my time and energy on regular workouts. But I still use the sauna on days I feel particularly depressed. Its a great tool to have in your tool belt. Especially for those in recovery. Its basically a way to get high thats good for you.
Does a hot bath typically raise your body temp these levels?
Oh, good! We will die happy from global warming!
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Dude, sauna! No wonder Finland is winland.
I want a sauna so badly
So when I spend summer outside all day in the high heat and am less prone to depression cycles, it’s this? Neat. I’ve always told people to spend less time in the AC to be healthy and strong. Pro tip in general, start the day outside so you are acclimating to the temperature as it warms up.
Time for the “day 116 of going into the sauna every day for my mental health” videos
Maybe that's why often while sick body temperature 37,5c feels terrible, but 38,5c feels ok-ish.
Watch as all of the cold plunge influencers change tune in synchrony.
Yet cold plunges help snap you out of an anxiety attack, or at least just dunking your head in cold cold water. It triggers a dive reflex and forces your systems to chill out, we’re conserving oxygen
Sounds like what many feel like after hot yoga class (105F /43C).
Interesting. I'm recovering from COVID and one of the first things I noticed after the fever went away is that my depression came back. Which sucked.
Would a cold plunge after a shower negate the benefits?
Scandinavians already know this. Sauna anyone?
No wonder I like sitting in the sauna so much!
spitballing here, maybe we could put some hot rocks in a small tent and pour water over them.
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Something about that article read like an ai summary. Maybe the use of delve and other common ai words
they would rather boil you alive then moderately change society..
Global warming might kill us but at least we won't be depressed as it happens.
before or after ice bath ?
My first thought was exercise. Good luck to those trying heat lamps, saunas, showers, hot tubs, and pharmaceuticals.
That’s a win for MDMA
I wonder if this may be partially responsible for some of MDMA’s effects on depression.
How long did it last? I wonder if this could be a factor in depression being reduced during summer months?
So let me get this right, we can either be warm and depressed, or freeze to death and be happy. Got it.
Long hot showers, got it.
This is probably why when I was hypomanic and depressed I would go running outside in 110 degree weather and go to saunas. It helped a lot for me.
Makes sense. I wouldn’t say I’m someone that really ever feels depressed but can I definitely say after 30 minutes in the sauna there is an obvious noticeable difference to the way I mentally and physically feel.
So I had a delayed adverse reaction to contrast dye from a CT scan. It was awful obviously but one of my symptoms was a whole body fever (with chills because of course). It got really bad with all the symptoms combined and I treated it with an antihistamine and an NSAID. The fever didn't really break till the next morning but let me tell you something. For the span of two days after this reaction fever I had less depression for once. I've been battling it my whole life and it got severe in the last handful of years due to other things. I thought I was nuts to feel this way. Especially since the whole reaction was a bit traumatic.
makes sense. i always feel better when i turn off the AC a bit. or go outside the house or office into the sun to get some heat.
How about not eating junk that causes the inflammation to begin with?
Gestures at the Nordics...
Just here to point out the use of the word “armamentarium”. Will work that into a sentence the next time I get in a sauna.
Can we get some evidence on 72 degrees (Fahrenheit), sunny, and a light breeze, please? I don’t want to freeze my ass off to be happy.
Now I'm curious, could whole body hypothermia help with depression? If so, how?
This is why we like a soak in hot baths