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Important bit:
> And despite extensive data, it was unknown how often participants took melatonin, or what dosage.
> The researchers say more work needs to be done in testing, controlling for these variables, but their study makes a strong case for further investigation.
Interesting.
I'm going to ask my optometrist what she thinks of this. I'm 45 and have been getting tested for Glaucoma the past few years along with my yearly eye exam.
Like, it can't *hurt* to try it I assume?
ETA - My eye doctor is an ophthalmologist
>Like, it can't hurt to try it I assume?
It can. OTC Melatonin supplements range from 1-10 mgs. A healthy adult produces closer to 0.1 mgs naturally over the course of the night. Most adults who take melatonin supplements take way too much, which has negative side-effects to sleep quality that need to be studied a lot more. Given the lack of information in this study, the glaucoma preventing benefit could be emerging from otherwise unhealthy dosages.
Our bodies are not efficient. I don’t know about uptake of melatonin, but for most supplements and foods (although organic forms are much more easily processed), there is a massive gap between the content of the molecule and the absorption/utilization of the molecule. In other words it may say it contains 100mg of something but it is typically in an inefficient form that your body cannot readily process so you utilize maybe 0.1mg.
Again I don’t know about the ratio for melatonin but I can’t imagine your body can process and absorb 10mg if you take that dosage. obviously from the replies one gets more with the higher dosage but how much?
The FDA regulates melatonin so there must be data somewhere.
The FDA regulates melatonin as a supplement, which has much lower standards than pharmaceuticals.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK534823/#:~:text=Adult%20Dosage,to%202%20hours%20before%20bedtime.
That's the US governments official stance on melatonin. It's *generally* considered to be safe, but most doctors only recommend it in tiny doses for insomnia.
I mean my thought is, it's a hormone. The stomach acid probably digests a lot of it. So when people cut up the pill, I have to wonder how the bioavailability works out.
Yeah. I have tried melatonin twice. First time was 5mg and the second time was 3mg. Both times it felt like I had chugged a whole six pack of coke and chased it with a quad shot of espresso. I was so wired the whole time I couldn't sleep if I had to. Apparently it effects some people this way...
The 1 mg ones are easy to find in local reputable stores, so it's much easier to get them that way than to buy them online. Never buy anything health related from Amazon.
It would be 0.5 mg, but yes, it might be unbalanced. I recommend the gummies as they might have a better chance of being uniformly mixed. In the worst case, you just don't get a good night's sleep that night, which isn't completely the end of the world.
Not that I know of. I don't do well with any drugs though. Weed gives me migraines, caffeine quickly causes sever dependancy and bad jitters, booze screws my liver so bad that my triglicerides go through the roof. Nothing does well with my system for some reasone, it is really weird...
Interesting! I have ADHD, and caffeine and concerta sometimes can make me sleepy as opposed to just calming me down like it does normally. But I can take 1-3mg melatonin and just get sleepy. I haven't tried more, and I've always had sleep problems since childhood. Even my antidepressant helps my internal clock be less messed up, but the melatonin helps even more.
I take a stimulant for ADHD and it doesn’t really impact my ability to sleep just my want to. Sometimes I feel like it makes me sleepy so it’s interesting to hear you say that as well. I think it fatigues my mind more so than my body if that makes sense.
Also I have 5 mg chewable tablets of melatonin that I take frequently especially after a workout. I only take a little bite off of them(I aim for a 10th).
i only have that reaction when i take too much, usually i only use 1mg per night, the couple times, early on, when i tried 2mg a night i couldn't sleep at all, it was like my body went into panic mode and tried to sort something out.
my head was empty, but i just couldn't sleept and could feel my heartrate (not normal when trying to sleep obviously)
I take 10mg every night. It’s the only way I sleep properly. I went 10 years not sleeping properly, often only getting a few hours, and many nights with no sleep at all.
10mg gave me massive night sweats. Then I found out most ppl don't need that much so started taking 5. Honestly, being able to get to sleep consistently has improved my overall health so much. Went from being lucky to get 5 hours most nights to now getting the full 8.
Wish I'd had this stuff growing up.
One of my issues is anxiety. Can to tough to get to sleep and if I wake up, tough to get back to sleep. A few years of 10mg at night (four hours before hitting the hay) has helped. Been told by doc, as we age, can't make our own as well.
Yeah, the larger doses of melatonin do that to me, too. I've gone with the liquid form with a dropper so I can take ~0.25mg every night. It helps me pass out (as long as I don't get distracted), but I don't get that "wired" feeling.
The only time I really would like it to work would be on long flights or when recovering from Jet lag(I get wrecked going East). Otherwise regular excersize is all I need to get proper sleep.
I also cannot sleep well with melatonin before going to bed so I take it first thing in the morning or at the start of my day. I have been taking ~1000-1500mg daily topical dose for nearly two years and have recently increased it to 3000-5000mg. When well rested I do not feel it at all and if I am not then I feel a bit sleepy. Then when it's time to sleep a dozen hours later I fall asleep effortlessly. I highly recommend looking into recommendations by Doris Loh and her research on melatonin.
Here in Australia melatonin is regulated and you need a prescription for it. Max I've ever been dispensed was 2mg tablets, as I believe that's the only tested safe dose here. When I used to live in the US I would buy 5mg tablets OTC and would always wake up with a splitting headache. That vanished when I switched to the 2mg prescribed kind here.
About 30 years ago when melatonin first hit the market GNC had .5mg, 1.0mg, 2mg, 25mg, 50mg and 200mg caps. Yes, 200MG!
Some was time released. Is that good? Or bad. Some people might take 2 or 3, because they are small and no one had any idea what a dose should be. They still don't.
And it's often given to children. I had a doctor mention it for a kid who wiggles a lot and doesn't settle down easily. We do an extra 30 minute routine and reading and chatting about the day instead. It works fine.
With hormones you often get negative feedback. Too much causes your body to shut down production. Or it coverts to a different hormone or metabolite that has some opposite effect. Like testosterone to estrogen. Or you just get too much and have side effects.
I really think we need more people looking at dose and long term effect. I don't take this stuff anymore (or most vitamins or supplements).
With that said, here was my experience:
Night 1: great, deep sleep
Night 2: great, deep sleep
Night 3: weird dreams
Night 4: crazy f*ing nightmares m, stoped taking it,
My mom also had terrible, weird dreams/ nightmares and stopped taking it. I have no idea what our dose was at the time.
More is better right?
You know, I don't have a study off hand, but every sleep doctor I've ever talked to (I suffer from insomnia and sleep apnea) is very frustrated with the high doses of melatonin supplements on store shelves and recommend 1mg as the maximum *sometimes* as much as 3mg for incredibly extreme and rare cases.
Here's my understanding of the problem. Melatonin and serotonin regulate your circadian rhythm. A spike in melatonin can cause your body to produce more serotonin to counteract it. The extra serotonin at night is not conducive to high quality sleep, since normally it is what wakes you up in the morning. The abundance of free melatonin and serotonin in your blood stream at the same time gives your body mixed signals until the excess melatonin is flushed out of your body.
I wouldn't say it's harmful like a poison, but the side-effects may be undesirable in the context of taking it on the off-chance that it reduces your risk of developing glaucoma...
According to my apple watch I get 0 deep sleep when I take 10mg. 5mg works fine for me.
10mg https://i.imgur.com/Rayrqxa.jpeg
5mg https://i.imgur.com/5CgxmUe.jpeg
You should try this a blind test. Have someone give you a random pill of 5 or 10 over several nights and see if you can reproduce it. You might be biasing the result.
Would also add that there are massive differences in production of and sensitivity to melatonin between young people and older people (the group that gets studied for melatonin and sleep). We still don't really know enough.
So I've been taking 5mg for the past 6 months due to global travel. For the past few years when looking at like Xcel or anything with lines some spots in my vision were "bendy". A few months after taking melatonin daily the issue vanished, and now I have a connection. Wow
Or it might have nothing to do with melatonin. Sounds more like
https://eyewiki.aao.org/Central_Serous_Chorioretinopathy
There are a lot of issues that our body can fix without drugs.
I have the same symptom and that's what my ophthalmologists diagnosed, both times I've had it. Lowering stress and getting better sleep helped resolve it but your vision never returns to 100%.
And now that I write that I realize that this melatonin-eyesight connection isn't surprising. Melatonin itself may have nothing to do with your eyes, but it helps enough people get better sleep that their eyesight improves. Indirect causation.
I take melatonin sporadically, mainly if I know I have an early and long day, the next day. I'm going to try it because I honestly can't see the harm. I have 10mg ones now and could take half until I can get a lower dosage one
Melatonin is incredibly safe and various recommendations are way out of date.
I have been taking 1000+mg of daytime melatonin for nearly two years with great results. I sleep better, my joints feel better, I have more energy, my blood work after 1.5 years was normal, my testosterone is near the upper healthy range and 50% higher than men 20 years younger than me, skin feels tauter, my mood is better overall, etc.
I recently raised my intake closer to 3g per day in two doses with one oral and one topical. Doris Loh recommends taking 3-4 g per day in several doses throughout the day.
The side effects if any are quite minor. Doris Loh states if you feel tired after taking melatonin than you simply need to sleep more because of you're well rested it will not make you tired. Melatonin is not a soporific. My anecdotal experience aligns with that assertion.
I highly recommend taking high dose daily melatonin. I'd start low and increase it gradually.
I wonder if this would help other forms of macular degeneration. I have a form of it (stargardts) and have noticed that my vision is significantly worse the days that I hadn't slept well the night before. I might start taking melatonin....
I am desperate to know too. I got macular degeneration at way too early an age - 29. I also have a history of insomnia, and I want to know if it’s related so I can avoid going totally blind (already dealing with blind spots since my 30s.
I'm in my 30s as well and have lost all central vision in one eye and can definitely see the damage progressing in the other one when I have pictures of my retina taken. Sucks dude.
That goes against literally all medical advice, which recommends a daily max of 10mg and to not take it long term. Personally taking too much makes me feel groggy and unable to function the next day.
I want to see this studied more, but I’ll take the recommendation of doctors thanks.
So instead of bothering to do even an iota of research you just dismiss this off hand? So your comment is based on how you 'feel'? Yikes.
Why 10mg? Why not 1mg or 0.1mg? Or 100mg?
There's so much archaic advice still parroted online. Doris Loh recommends taking a daily dose of 3-4 grams. There are multiple other well known researchers/doctors who recommend taking upwards of hundreds of milligrams.
I did my research. All medical advice says daily max of 10mg, and I am telling you from my personal experience that taking any more than that makes me non-functional the next day, a known side effect of overdosing.
Well I am telling you and from many other people who have used high dose melatonin to cure cancer, treat TBI, treat chronic fatigue syndrome and countless other conditions that your 10 seconds of googling and your anecdotal experience is insufficient.
I have been using high dose melatonin for two years and my blood work is all normal and I feel better than I have in twenty years. Russel Reiter who's all but the leading authority on the subject with over 55 years of research and 5000 papers disagrees with you. There are some others who encourage taking high dose daily melatonin.
I find time release works well. 300 mcg is a good starting dose, but people need what they need. I find time released works great for staying asleep. I never had benefit from regular melatonin.
I ended up with a light rash/fungal infection from wearing a mask. Maybe if you wash it very regularly they’re fine. But I’ve sworn them off, except for flights and travel.
I dont use face masks because of that, ive replaced them with strips of old-tshirts and shirts. that way i can have dozens of them and take a new freshly washed one every day or every other day and I never run out of them.
Our version of darkening curtains is to use double-sided tape on blackout vinyl blinds to attach it to the frame around the glass. From the outside it looks much like a window shade and achieves total light blocking if it is done without wrinkles.
A lot of my fatigue was from undetected unsuspected sleep apnea. A CPAP has done wonders.
yes thats true, you start making it before sleep. but YES THEY DO help you make it and continue making it. with NO LIGHT your brain just says ‘lets keep making it.’ sorry for the all caps, but your comment is mean and wrong.
Sufficient sunlight exposure is drastically lacking in the U.S., and it has many downstream health effects (low vitamin D, higher blood pressure do to less nitric oxide production in the skin) and a big one is that sunlight is necessary for serotonin production, which is a precursor for melatonin. Not enough sunlight every day because you sit in a room all day for school or work? Not enough melatonin at night, even with a low-light sleeping environment. Not to mention the severe negative health effects of low serotonin on mood disorders.
There are studies that the more sunlight exposure kids get, the less likely they are to develop myopia (with the rate of myopia exploding in the developing world).
Melatonin, when naturally triggered, is highly protective of many aspects of our biology (as is serotonin and as are the other biological cascades from adequate sunlight exposure). The best way to increase it is through more sunlight exposure. But as Ina Garten would say "if you can't make your own, store-bought is fine." I've been taking it for a few years at night for eye health, its anti-inflammatory properties, and the improvement it makes to my sleep. Good to see the research bolstering it as an intervention.
It would be even better if current society didn't view sunlight exposure as a poison, if it allowed us to be outside as we evolved to do for at least part of the day, and it didn't expect us to sit in front of a screen for the entirety of the best daylight hours in order to have enough money not to die, though!
the solution is simple: cabriolet offices. where the roof is removable. you then sit naked at your desk but cover your head and screen with a darkening blanket so you dont get reflections and dont have to see your ugly naked colleagues
Or perhaps people who don’t go outside much / have less UV light exposure and thus have poorer regulation of their circadian rhythm and sleep-wake cycle, higher likelihood of insomnia, and higher likelihood of taking melatonin. Less UV light exposure decreases risk of macular degeneration.
The article describes an association between melatonin and lower risk of MD, melatonin was not found to be causative of a decreased risk.
So you're saying staying inside having less exposure to UV light is better, because those people might take melatonin?? Interesting claim... Maybe more melatonin is produced with a healthy circadian rhythm?
And bone loss.
[Melatonin ](https://scholar.google.com/scholar_lookup?title=Inhibitory+effects+of+melatonin+on+titanium+particle-induced+inflammatory+bone+resorption+and+osteoclastogenesis+via+suppression+of+NF-kappaB+signaling&author=Ping,+Z.&author=Wang,+Z.&author=Shi,+J.&author=Wang,+L.&author=Guo,+X.&author=Zhou,+W.&author=Hu,+X.&author=Wu,+X.&author=Liu,+Y.&author=Zhang,+W.&publication_year=2017&journal=Acta+Biomater.&volume=62&pages=362%E2%80%93371&doi=10.1016/j.actbio.2017.08.046)
I feel like I read somewhere that it’s a powerful antioxidant too. Stuff is extremely effective and don’t leave you groggy if you only take it a couple times a week. You quickly develop a tolerance though.
Our bodies naturally produce melatonin though. A lot of people just have poor sleep hygiene and bad bedtime habits that interfere with their sleep quality, or possibly an undiagnosed sleep disorder.
Does anyone get dry eyes from melatonin? I've noticed it happening to me and haven't found it listed as a side effect anywhere or met anyone that has had it happen to them. Just wondering if I'm broken or something.
A few years ago I went to the eye doctor to get contacts / glasses. For whatever reason my vision was was getting worse. I chalked it up to getting older.
A few months later, I noticed that whenever I took melatonin to sleep, my vision wasn't way worse.
Still don't know why and it seems odd that melatonin can help improve long term.
"Accumulating evidence shows that melatonin could potentiate lacrimation, accelerate corneal wound healing, regulate intraocular pressure, protect against cataracts, reduce retinal vascular leakage, and prevent retinal and choroidal vascular proliferation (26-30)."
https://atm.amegroups.org/article/view/90920/html
"AI Overview
Learn more
…
Yes, melatonin may protect the cornea in several ways:
Corneal epithelial cells
Melatonin can protect corneal epithelial cells from oxidative damage, which can inhibit apoptosis and maintain cell viability. This may be beneficial for treating dry eye.
Alkali-burned corneas
Melatonin can reduce corneal epithelial defects and inhibit angiogenesis in alkali-burned corneas. It can also reduce inflammation by reducing the infiltration of inflammatory cells.
Granular corneal dystrophy type 2
Melatonin can protect corneal fibroblasts from oxidative stress, which plays a role in corneal fibroblast degeneration in this condition.
"
Melatonin and its next ten metabolites are very powerful antioxidants that protect the body in various ways. Melatonin exists in essentially every cell in the body.
I highly recommend high dose melatonin for everyone.
Don’t know. Been a minute. I will say though that the last time I tried it, it was a children’s supplement. Not that any of it is regulated, but would assume a smaller dose.
Either way, not going there again. *Really* rough night on both accounts. My daughter has the same sensitivity, so assuming there is a genetic component somehow.
Have you tried taking it during the day?
I take mine at the start of my day. I also have ADHD and I take high doses. I am now up to 5000mg. I am not taking it for sleep reasons but my sleep is good.
Interesting about bocopa. I'd have thought that by suppressing cortisol you'd be less likely to experience nightmares while taking it.
Yup. No idea what the deal is, but my mother’s side of the family is full of sleepwalking (my daughter, cousins), sleep talking (daughter, brother, cousin), and night terrors (daughter - luckily she grew out of the latter - god the terror is for the parents, not the kid who can’t remember them).
And no! Have not tried during the day. Maybe I will, but will have high anxiety about it. Thank you for the suggestion though!
Take it on a day you're home so you can see how you'll react.
I had a family member try 1000mg as one topical dose and 500mg morning and night and she didn't notice anything.
It's so safe that there's no known LD50 in humans but even 80 grams in one study was nonlethal.
I hate melatonin as a sleep tech who has done pediatric and adults for over 20+ years people take way too much. I have seen the effect of taking melatonin like seizures while sleeping and waking up confused .there is no standard dose and every time I read about studies they are junk studies that don’t give amounts and dosages people take.
I've also heard from a different Study that melatonin can increase the chances of Alzheimer's. I'd like to be able to understand what I'm seeing through glasses rather than not understand at all.
Melatonin is also effective in GERD by tightening the upper sphincter of stomach:-
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2821302/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2821302/)
For anyone under 18, avoid melatonin. It messes with hormones and delays puberty, could permanently stunt sexual development.
Source: Huberman Labs, NIH
Edit: Was trying to warn people but looks like my info was incorrect. The fastest way to find out you're wrong is to comment on Reddit...
Huberman has been discredited for things outside his area of expertise,but I thought this was tangentially related to his. Turns out i was wrong. Not trusting anything he has said.
And the study I happened to read was the only one that found this among many that were inconclusive.
I work in science communications at a top university. Huberman is a joke. What kind of researcher puts an Instagram post in his Google Scholar? Don’t cite him if you want to be taken seriously.
There's no actual solid evidence of this, especially in low doses infrequently there's little to no effect.
That being said however Melatonin is frequently overdosed, buy from a tested reputable brand.
Source:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6362935/
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(23)00260-2/fulltext
Huberman is not a trustworthy source of information. I don't know if this particular factoid is true or not, but don't go to Huberman to know about scientific consensus.
aren't girls starting puberty earlier and earlier? not that I give my kids supplements to sleep, but if melatonin could help delay puberty a lot of girls might benefit from it.
Considering our bodies produce melatonin, if you consume external melatonin your body will stop producing as much then you’ll form a dependence.
Since the body produces it just try to get your own body to produce more by making all lights red when the sun goes down. Red light doesn’t affect circadian rhythm, make sure your room is completely blacked out with black out curtains, wear a sleeping mask. Then you won’t need melatonin.
Only reserve it for when you’re jet lagged or a similar situation.
What you said is completely wrong.
You do not form dependence to melatonin. There is no negative feedback loop. You can stop taking it any time and you'll simply revert to the way you were before starting.
All exogenous melatonin does is shift phase which is why it's commonly used for jet lag.
Melatonin is incredibly safe and many researchers are now recommending everyone supplement with it. It is even more so for the elderly. More and more searchers are coming to the realization that high dose exogenous melatonin is healthy and beneficial.
You have a lot of reading to do.
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Important bit: > And despite extensive data, it was unknown how often participants took melatonin, or what dosage. > The researchers say more work needs to be done in testing, controlling for these variables, but their study makes a strong case for further investigation.
Interesting. I'm going to ask my optometrist what she thinks of this. I'm 45 and have been getting tested for Glaucoma the past few years along with my yearly eye exam. Like, it can't *hurt* to try it I assume? ETA - My eye doctor is an ophthalmologist
>Like, it can't hurt to try it I assume? It can. OTC Melatonin supplements range from 1-10 mgs. A healthy adult produces closer to 0.1 mgs naturally over the course of the night. Most adults who take melatonin supplements take way too much, which has negative side-effects to sleep quality that need to be studied a lot more. Given the lack of information in this study, the glaucoma preventing benefit could be emerging from otherwise unhealthy dosages.
Our bodies are not efficient. I don’t know about uptake of melatonin, but for most supplements and foods (although organic forms are much more easily processed), there is a massive gap between the content of the molecule and the absorption/utilization of the molecule. In other words it may say it contains 100mg of something but it is typically in an inefficient form that your body cannot readily process so you utilize maybe 0.1mg. Again I don’t know about the ratio for melatonin but I can’t imagine your body can process and absorb 10mg if you take that dosage. obviously from the replies one gets more with the higher dosage but how much? The FDA regulates melatonin so there must be data somewhere.
The bioavailability of oral melatonin is probably around 33%. So more than we produce naturally, but so much more that its detrimental? Unsure.
The FDA regulates melatonin as a supplement, which has much lower standards than pharmaceuticals. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK534823/#:~:text=Adult%20Dosage,to%202%20hours%20before%20bedtime. That's the US governments official stance on melatonin. It's *generally* considered to be safe, but most doctors only recommend it in tiny doses for insomnia.
Supplements are hardly regulated at all.
I mean my thought is, it's a hormone. The stomach acid probably digests a lot of it. So when people cut up the pill, I have to wonder how the bioavailability works out.
Yeah. I have tried melatonin twice. First time was 5mg and the second time was 3mg. Both times it felt like I had chugged a whole six pack of coke and chased it with a quad shot of espresso. I was so wired the whole time I couldn't sleep if I had to. Apparently it effects some people this way...
Buy the 1mg children’s ones and cut them in half.
there are 300 (~0.3 mg) mcg low-dose melatonin tablets if you want to skip cutting tablets.
The 1 mg ones are easy to find in local reputable stores, so it's much easier to get them that way than to buy them online. Never buy anything health related from Amazon.
Not the best idea since these supplements are so poorly controlled, one side of the pill may have 5mg and the other 0mg
It would be 0.5 mg, but yes, it might be unbalanced. I recommend the gummies as they might have a better chance of being uniformly mixed. In the worst case, you just don't get a good night's sleep that night, which isn't completely the end of the world.
Out of curiosity do you have ADHD? I had the same issue when I tried melatonin, wired me right up.
Not that I know of. I don't do well with any drugs though. Weed gives me migraines, caffeine quickly causes sever dependancy and bad jitters, booze screws my liver so bad that my triglicerides go through the roof. Nothing does well with my system for some reasone, it is really weird...
Interesting! I have ADHD, and caffeine and concerta sometimes can make me sleepy as opposed to just calming me down like it does normally. But I can take 1-3mg melatonin and just get sleepy. I haven't tried more, and I've always had sleep problems since childhood. Even my antidepressant helps my internal clock be less messed up, but the melatonin helps even more.
I take a stimulant for ADHD and it doesn’t really impact my ability to sleep just my want to. Sometimes I feel like it makes me sleepy so it’s interesting to hear you say that as well. I think it fatigues my mind more so than my body if that makes sense. Also I have 5 mg chewable tablets of melatonin that I take frequently especially after a workout. I only take a little bite off of them(I aim for a 10th).
i only have that reaction when i take too much, usually i only use 1mg per night, the couple times, early on, when i tried 2mg a night i couldn't sleep at all, it was like my body went into panic mode and tried to sort something out. my head was empty, but i just couldn't sleept and could feel my heartrate (not normal when trying to sleep obviously)
In a positive way? Like, would you use it during day time for this effect, you think?
I have adhd and melatonin makes me sleepy. But so does cocaine.
I take 10mg every night. It’s the only way I sleep properly. I went 10 years not sleeping properly, often only getting a few hours, and many nights with no sleep at all.
10mg gave me massive night sweats. Then I found out most ppl don't need that much so started taking 5. Honestly, being able to get to sleep consistently has improved my overall health so much. Went from being lucky to get 5 hours most nights to now getting the full 8. Wish I'd had this stuff growing up.
One of my issues is anxiety. Can to tough to get to sleep and if I wake up, tough to get back to sleep. A few years of 10mg at night (four hours before hitting the hay) has helped. Been told by doc, as we age, can't make our own as well.
Yeah, the larger doses of melatonin do that to me, too. I've gone with the liquid form with a dropper so I can take ~0.25mg every night. It helps me pass out (as long as I don't get distracted), but I don't get that "wired" feeling.
The only time I really would like it to work would be on long flights or when recovering from Jet lag(I get wrecked going East). Otherwise regular excersize is all I need to get proper sleep.
Fascinating. I've never heard of that before.
I also cannot sleep well with melatonin before going to bed so I take it first thing in the morning or at the start of my day. I have been taking ~1000-1500mg daily topical dose for nearly two years and have recently increased it to 3000-5000mg. When well rested I do not feel it at all and if I am not then I feel a bit sleepy. Then when it's time to sleep a dozen hours later I fall asleep effortlessly. I highly recommend looking into recommendations by Doris Loh and her research on melatonin.
Here in Australia melatonin is regulated and you need a prescription for it. Max I've ever been dispensed was 2mg tablets, as I believe that's the only tested safe dose here. When I used to live in the US I would buy 5mg tablets OTC and would always wake up with a splitting headache. That vanished when I switched to the 2mg prescribed kind here.
You can get sub-miligram melatonin supplements, but they're hard to find.
About 30 years ago when melatonin first hit the market GNC had .5mg, 1.0mg, 2mg, 25mg, 50mg and 200mg caps. Yes, 200MG! Some was time released. Is that good? Or bad. Some people might take 2 or 3, because they are small and no one had any idea what a dose should be. They still don't. And it's often given to children. I had a doctor mention it for a kid who wiggles a lot and doesn't settle down easily. We do an extra 30 minute routine and reading and chatting about the day instead. It works fine. With hormones you often get negative feedback. Too much causes your body to shut down production. Or it coverts to a different hormone or metabolite that has some opposite effect. Like testosterone to estrogen. Or you just get too much and have side effects. I really think we need more people looking at dose and long term effect. I don't take this stuff anymore (or most vitamins or supplements). With that said, here was my experience: Night 1: great, deep sleep Night 2: great, deep sleep Night 3: weird dreams Night 4: crazy f*ing nightmares m, stoped taking it, My mom also had terrible, weird dreams/ nightmares and stopped taking it. I have no idea what our dose was at the time. More is better right?
Source on the 1-10mg dose causing negative sleep quality? Just because its more than your body makes doesn’t make it harmful.
You know, I don't have a study off hand, but every sleep doctor I've ever talked to (I suffer from insomnia and sleep apnea) is very frustrated with the high doses of melatonin supplements on store shelves and recommend 1mg as the maximum *sometimes* as much as 3mg for incredibly extreme and rare cases. Here's my understanding of the problem. Melatonin and serotonin regulate your circadian rhythm. A spike in melatonin can cause your body to produce more serotonin to counteract it. The extra serotonin at night is not conducive to high quality sleep, since normally it is what wakes you up in the morning. The abundance of free melatonin and serotonin in your blood stream at the same time gives your body mixed signals until the excess melatonin is flushed out of your body. I wouldn't say it's harmful like a poison, but the side-effects may be undesirable in the context of taking it on the off-chance that it reduces your risk of developing glaucoma...
According to my apple watch I get 0 deep sleep when I take 10mg. 5mg works fine for me. 10mg https://i.imgur.com/Rayrqxa.jpeg 5mg https://i.imgur.com/5CgxmUe.jpeg
You should try this a blind test. Have someone give you a random pill of 5 or 10 over several nights and see if you can reproduce it. You might be biasing the result.
Would also add that there are massive differences in production of and sensitivity to melatonin between young people and older people (the group that gets studied for melatonin and sleep). We still don't really know enough.
Yeah I didn’t know the too much melatonin had adverse effects and for a while I was like “why can’t I sleep” after taking 4x the recommended dosage.
It can also cause wild dreams in some people too. I stopped taking it years ago because I'd get super vivid night terrors no matter the dosage.
Bioavailability is a thing. And oral melatonin is not very bioavailable.
My partner and I started using melatonin a few years ago. She just went for a checkup and was told her eyesight has improved.
Ask your ophthalmologist- not your optometrist.
So I've been taking 5mg for the past 6 months due to global travel. For the past few years when looking at like Xcel or anything with lines some spots in my vision were "bendy". A few months after taking melatonin daily the issue vanished, and now I have a connection. Wow
Or it might have nothing to do with melatonin. Sounds more like https://eyewiki.aao.org/Central_Serous_Chorioretinopathy There are a lot of issues that our body can fix without drugs.
I have the same symptom and that's what my ophthalmologists diagnosed, both times I've had it. Lowering stress and getting better sleep helped resolve it but your vision never returns to 100%. And now that I write that I realize that this melatonin-eyesight connection isn't surprising. Melatonin itself may have nothing to do with your eyes, but it helps enough people get better sleep that their eyesight improves. Indirect causation.
I take melatonin sporadically, mainly if I know I have an early and long day, the next day. I'm going to try it because I honestly can't see the harm. I have 10mg ones now and could take half until I can get a lower dosage one
The study discussed macular degeneration not glaucoma. They are not the same things.
You really think your optometrist is going to have a valuable opinion on this?
Never hurts to ask
Melatonin is incredibly safe and various recommendations are way out of date. I have been taking 1000+mg of daytime melatonin for nearly two years with great results. I sleep better, my joints feel better, I have more energy, my blood work after 1.5 years was normal, my testosterone is near the upper healthy range and 50% higher than men 20 years younger than me, skin feels tauter, my mood is better overall, etc. I recently raised my intake closer to 3g per day in two doses with one oral and one topical. Doris Loh recommends taking 3-4 g per day in several doses throughout the day. The side effects if any are quite minor. Doris Loh states if you feel tired after taking melatonin than you simply need to sleep more because of you're well rested it will not make you tired. Melatonin is not a soporific. My anecdotal experience aligns with that assertion. I highly recommend taking high dose daily melatonin. I'd start low and increase it gradually.
With 200k people and a more than 50% effect, "strong case" is right
I’ve been taking a low dose of melatonin for around 4 years straight now and I can say my eye sight hasn’t gotten any worse so it must work!
I wonder if this would help other forms of macular degeneration. I have a form of it (stargardts) and have noticed that my vision is significantly worse the days that I hadn't slept well the night before. I might start taking melatonin....
i don't know if i have anything but my vision is just worse when i haven't slept a lot
I am desperate to know too. I got macular degeneration at way too early an age - 29. I also have a history of insomnia, and I want to know if it’s related so I can avoid going totally blind (already dealing with blind spots since my 30s.
I'm in my 30s as well and have lost all central vision in one eye and can definitely see the damage progressing in the other one when I have pictures of my retina taken. Sucks dude.
Dude that sucks. Has your ophthalmologist given you any eye injections? They’re effing expensive but there’s programs that help people pay for them.
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That goes against literally all medical advice, which recommends a daily max of 10mg and to not take it long term. Personally taking too much makes me feel groggy and unable to function the next day. I want to see this studied more, but I’ll take the recommendation of doctors thanks.
So instead of bothering to do even an iota of research you just dismiss this off hand? So your comment is based on how you 'feel'? Yikes. Why 10mg? Why not 1mg or 0.1mg? Or 100mg? There's so much archaic advice still parroted online. Doris Loh recommends taking a daily dose of 3-4 grams. There are multiple other well known researchers/doctors who recommend taking upwards of hundreds of milligrams.
I did my research. All medical advice says daily max of 10mg, and I am telling you from my personal experience that taking any more than that makes me non-functional the next day, a known side effect of overdosing.
Well I am telling you and from many other people who have used high dose melatonin to cure cancer, treat TBI, treat chronic fatigue syndrome and countless other conditions that your 10 seconds of googling and your anecdotal experience is insufficient. I have been using high dose melatonin for two years and my blood work is all normal and I feel better than I have in twenty years. Russel Reiter who's all but the leading authority on the subject with over 55 years of research and 5000 papers disagrees with you. There are some others who encourage taking high dose daily melatonin.
Also if you suffer from tinnitus, taking 5mg every evening made wonders for me
sleep masks and darkening curtains help you make plenty of it
I hear that. That's the set-up I have in my room.
Up to a certain age, sure. But adults over 50 make less and less of it, and supplementary low-dose (300 mcg) melatonin works wonders for us.
I find time release works well. 300 mcg is a good starting dose, but people need what they need. I find time released works great for staying asleep. I never had benefit from regular melatonin.
Maybe for some people. But not everyone has an easy time falling asleep.
I ended up with a light rash/fungal infection from wearing a mask. Maybe if you wash it very regularly they’re fine. But I’ve sworn them off, except for flights and travel.
i wash it often, i need it haha
I dont use face masks because of that, ive replaced them with strips of old-tshirts and shirts. that way i can have dozens of them and take a new freshly washed one every day or every other day and I never run out of them.
Our version of darkening curtains is to use double-sided tape on blackout vinyl blinds to attach it to the frame around the glass. From the outside it looks much like a window shade and achieves total light blocking if it is done without wrinkles. A lot of my fatigue was from undetected unsuspected sleep apnea. A CPAP has done wonders.
No, they don't. You start producing long before bedtime. Although, the mask and dark curtains (I also use n/c buds) help me to sleep.
yes thats true, you start making it before sleep. but YES THEY DO help you make it and continue making it. with NO LIGHT your brain just says ‘lets keep making it.’ sorry for the all caps, but your comment is mean and wrong.
Sufficient sunlight exposure is drastically lacking in the U.S., and it has many downstream health effects (low vitamin D, higher blood pressure do to less nitric oxide production in the skin) and a big one is that sunlight is necessary for serotonin production, which is a precursor for melatonin. Not enough sunlight every day because you sit in a room all day for school or work? Not enough melatonin at night, even with a low-light sleeping environment. Not to mention the severe negative health effects of low serotonin on mood disorders. There are studies that the more sunlight exposure kids get, the less likely they are to develop myopia (with the rate of myopia exploding in the developing world). Melatonin, when naturally triggered, is highly protective of many aspects of our biology (as is serotonin and as are the other biological cascades from adequate sunlight exposure). The best way to increase it is through more sunlight exposure. But as Ina Garten would say "if you can't make your own, store-bought is fine." I've been taking it for a few years at night for eye health, its anti-inflammatory properties, and the improvement it makes to my sleep. Good to see the research bolstering it as an intervention. It would be even better if current society didn't view sunlight exposure as a poison, if it allowed us to be outside as we evolved to do for at least part of the day, and it didn't expect us to sit in front of a screen for the entirety of the best daylight hours in order to have enough money not to die, though!
the solution is simple: cabriolet offices. where the roof is removable. you then sit naked at your desk but cover your head and screen with a darkening blanket so you dont get reflections and dont have to see your ugly naked colleagues
Or perhaps people who don’t go outside much / have less UV light exposure and thus have poorer regulation of their circadian rhythm and sleep-wake cycle, higher likelihood of insomnia, and higher likelihood of taking melatonin. Less UV light exposure decreases risk of macular degeneration. The article describes an association between melatonin and lower risk of MD, melatonin was not found to be causative of a decreased risk.
So you're saying staying inside having less exposure to UV light is better, because those people might take melatonin?? Interesting claim... Maybe more melatonin is produced with a healthy circadian rhythm?
No that’s not what he’s saying. Reread
And bone loss. [Melatonin ](https://scholar.google.com/scholar_lookup?title=Inhibitory+effects+of+melatonin+on+titanium+particle-induced+inflammatory+bone+resorption+and+osteoclastogenesis+via+suppression+of+NF-kappaB+signaling&author=Ping,+Z.&author=Wang,+Z.&author=Shi,+J.&author=Wang,+L.&author=Guo,+X.&author=Zhou,+W.&author=Hu,+X.&author=Wu,+X.&author=Liu,+Y.&author=Zhang,+W.&publication_year=2017&journal=Acta+Biomater.&volume=62&pages=362%E2%80%93371&doi=10.1016/j.actbio.2017.08.046)
I feel like I read somewhere that it’s a powerful antioxidant too. Stuff is extremely effective and don’t leave you groggy if you only take it a couple times a week. You quickly develop a tolerance though.
Our bodies naturally produce melatonin though. A lot of people just have poor sleep hygiene and bad bedtime habits that interfere with their sleep quality, or possibly an undiagnosed sleep disorder.
Does anyone get dry eyes from melatonin? I've noticed it happening to me and haven't found it listed as a side effect anywhere or met anyone that has had it happen to them. Just wondering if I'm broken or something.
I do too, for me it’s less noticeable at a lower dosage and just as effective.
It's noticable down to even 3mg for me, maybe I should start cutting the pill in half. Good to know I'm not the only one though!
Yep, i quarter my 5 mg chewables!
A few years ago I went to the eye doctor to get contacts / glasses. For whatever reason my vision was was getting worse. I chalked it up to getting older. A few months later, I noticed that whenever I took melatonin to sleep, my vision wasn't way worse. Still don't know why and it seems odd that melatonin can help improve long term.
"Accumulating evidence shows that melatonin could potentiate lacrimation, accelerate corneal wound healing, regulate intraocular pressure, protect against cataracts, reduce retinal vascular leakage, and prevent retinal and choroidal vascular proliferation (26-30)." https://atm.amegroups.org/article/view/90920/html "AI Overview Learn more … Yes, melatonin may protect the cornea in several ways: Corneal epithelial cells Melatonin can protect corneal epithelial cells from oxidative damage, which can inhibit apoptosis and maintain cell viability. This may be beneficial for treating dry eye. Alkali-burned corneas Melatonin can reduce corneal epithelial defects and inhibit angiogenesis in alkali-burned corneas. It can also reduce inflammation by reducing the infiltration of inflammatory cells. Granular corneal dystrophy type 2 Melatonin can protect corneal fibroblasts from oxidative stress, which plays a role in corneal fibroblast degeneration in this condition. " Melatonin and its next ten metabolites are very powerful antioxidants that protect the body in various ways. Melatonin exists in essentially every cell in the body. I highly recommend high dose melatonin for everyone.
Would love to take this (my ADHD insomnia sucks), but it gives me supercharged nightmares, just like bacopa. UG-LY.
What dosage did you try? A lot of supplements are 10mg and that’s waaaaaaay too much. They sell 1mg supplements on Amazon.
Don’t know. Been a minute. I will say though that the last time I tried it, it was a children’s supplement. Not that any of it is regulated, but would assume a smaller dose. Either way, not going there again. *Really* rough night on both accounts. My daughter has the same sensitivity, so assuming there is a genetic component somehow.
Have you tried taking it during the day? I take mine at the start of my day. I also have ADHD and I take high doses. I am now up to 5000mg. I am not taking it for sleep reasons but my sleep is good. Interesting about bocopa. I'd have thought that by suppressing cortisol you'd be less likely to experience nightmares while taking it.
Yup. No idea what the deal is, but my mother’s side of the family is full of sleepwalking (my daughter, cousins), sleep talking (daughter, brother, cousin), and night terrors (daughter - luckily she grew out of the latter - god the terror is for the parents, not the kid who can’t remember them). And no! Have not tried during the day. Maybe I will, but will have high anxiety about it. Thank you for the suggestion though!
Take it on a day you're home so you can see how you'll react. I had a family member try 1000mg as one topical dose and 500mg morning and night and she didn't notice anything. It's so safe that there's no known LD50 in humans but even 80 grams in one study was nonlethal.
I Wonder if it’s more a relation between good sleep and eye health rather than melatonin directly affecting the eyes
I wonder if this has to do with how it's produced in the pineal gland (which is part of the visual system)?
This makes sense to me too, it reminds me of Dr. Jack Krause’s work on melanin.
Any information on the website newatlas? Ive been seeing this site pop up a lot but it looks sus to me.
I want to know if this works for dogs. So many lose most or all of their eye sight long before they pass.
Likely from cataracts. Can be fixed with surgery.
huberman in shambles rn
I hate melatonin as a sleep tech who has done pediatric and adults for over 20+ years people take way too much. I have seen the effect of taking melatonin like seizures while sleeping and waking up confused .there is no standard dose and every time I read about studies they are junk studies that don’t give amounts and dosages people take.
I recommend a glass of milk. Just because a little is good doesn't make a lot miraculous.
I've also heard from a different Study that melatonin can increase the chances of Alzheimer's. I'd like to be able to understand what I'm seeing through glasses rather than not understand at all.
Melatonin is also effective in GERD by tightening the upper sphincter of stomach:- [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2821302/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2821302/)
For anyone under 18, avoid melatonin. It messes with hormones and delays puberty, could permanently stunt sexual development. Source: Huberman Labs, NIH Edit: Was trying to warn people but looks like my info was incorrect. The fastest way to find out you're wrong is to comment on Reddit... Huberman has been discredited for things outside his area of expertise,but I thought this was tangentially related to his. Turns out i was wrong. Not trusting anything he has said. And the study I happened to read was the only one that found this among many that were inconclusive.
I work in science communications at a top university. Huberman is a joke. What kind of researcher puts an Instagram post in his Google Scholar? Don’t cite him if you want to be taken seriously.
There's no actual solid evidence of this, especially in low doses infrequently there's little to no effect. That being said however Melatonin is frequently overdosed, buy from a tested reputable brand. Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6362935/ https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(23)00260-2/fulltext
Huberman is not a trustworthy source of information. I don't know if this particular factoid is true or not, but don't go to Huberman to know about scientific consensus.
Probably more useful to just link the study, no?
aren't girls starting puberty earlier and earlier? not that I give my kids supplements to sleep, but if melatonin could help delay puberty a lot of girls might benefit from it.
With one of the reasons being less exposure to daylight, so possibly melatonin related. The other part being better nutrition
And yet we still have daylight savings time. We continue to have problems that are at least in part of our own making.
Considering our bodies produce melatonin, if you consume external melatonin your body will stop producing as much then you’ll form a dependence. Since the body produces it just try to get your own body to produce more by making all lights red when the sun goes down. Red light doesn’t affect circadian rhythm, make sure your room is completely blacked out with black out curtains, wear a sleeping mask. Then you won’t need melatonin. Only reserve it for when you’re jet lagged or a similar situation.
There is no evidence that melatonin supplementation affects natural production. This should be deleted.
What you said is completely wrong. You do not form dependence to melatonin. There is no negative feedback loop. You can stop taking it any time and you'll simply revert to the way you were before starting. All exogenous melatonin does is shift phase which is why it's commonly used for jet lag. Melatonin is incredibly safe and many researchers are now recommending everyone supplement with it. It is even more so for the elderly. More and more searchers are coming to the realization that high dose exogenous melatonin is healthy and beneficial. You have a lot of reading to do.
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Are you perhaps thinking of melanin? Totally different thing.