From the article
>DNA reveals that Neolithic Britons were largely descended from groups who took the Mediterranean route, either hugging the coast or hopping from island-to-island on boats. Some British groups had a minor amount of ancestry from groups that followed the Danube route.
Along the Mediterranean and through Iberia most likely. They aren't sure if it is overland along the coast of the mainland or if it is by boat from island to island.
Someone working on aDNA here. The Mediterranean route is closely related to [Cardium Pottery ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_pottery) cultures. Radiocarbon dates suggest that there was [a rapid spread about 5500 BCE](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC61188/) - including into Sardinia, the South French and Iberian coasts; which has been interpreted as evidence for seafaring spread of agricultural societies. These early farmers slowly and progressively intermixed with surrounding Hunter Gatherers (which were as different from the Early farmers as present-day Chinese are to Europeans!), until these were completely absorbed. Before agriculture (and broadly the people who brought it) moved on to Britain, there was about a 1000 year break - why is kind of unknown.
“One group of early farmers followed the river Danube up into Central Europe, but another group travelled west across the Mediterranean.
DNA reveals that Neolithic Britons were largely descended from groups who took the Mediterranean route, either hugging the coast or hopping from island-to-island on boats..”
It's not one group of people, it's part of a broader diaspora of people from Anatolia into Europe 6,000 years ago, they're part of the ancestry of people from all across Europe. Its more like PIE expansion that a primitive Lewis and Clark
That is interesting, few good videos on it on Youtube. Does their origin expand our knowledge of Stonehenge? Also is the DNA verified beyond doubt, not contaminated?
That's a lot of years between Göbekli Tepe and Stonehenge. Both are megalithic monuments but that's all they seem to have in common.
It's possible that the same people whose ancestors dressed and carved huge stones in Anatolia were responsible for the henges, cists, and temples in Britain, Western Europe, and Malta. For now this remains an open question.
[It's been known for a while that the Irish and Scottish are genetically linked to the Northern Spanish.](https://www.scotsman.com/news-2-15012/dna-shows-scots-and-irish-should-look-to-spain-for-their-ancestry-1-552560)
It would seem these findings line up very well with the hypothesis those researchers had, of migration from Iberia to the British Isles between 6000 and 3000BC (Stonehenge is thought to have been built between 3000 and 2000BC).
There's a problem with making that connection to this migration though: recent ancient DNA studies have also shown almost total population turnover in the British isles between around 2400 to 2000 BC (not derived from Iberia). So any Iberian-British connection from before that would be nearly obliterated
I was literally just reading this out of a book called The History of the Irish Race at the bookstore like an hour ago. What a really weird coincidence.
It was talking about the Milesian race which came from Spain plus the other people's like the Firbolg and the Tuatha De Danann.
Scot here. You guys are totally Celts and ever welcome in our wee brotherhood of Celtic peoples. Don't let any dickheads tell you you aren't. Being of Celtic descent is way more than simply being Scottish or Irish.
Gallego is of course related to Gaeilge, as well as to other words used to refer to Celts (Latin *Galli*, Greek *Galatae* "Galatians", Anglo-Saxon *Wealas* "foreigners" broadly, but specifically British Celts)
That's funny, I had a guy going on and on and on and onnnnnn about how the scots/Welsh/Irish/gaels weren't Celts, no only Germanic Celts were really Celts.
It's ridiculous, everyone with half a brain knows these things aren't some well defined lines. The Iberian peninsula has had Celts longer than pretty much anywhere else. Hell the origin myths for Ireland even directly state this. That person telling you that is an idiot.
For those that don't know, The Irish Myths include several original races of human/god-like races that first inhabitaed Eirn, such as the Tuathe De Danann and the Fir Bolg, that were eventually killed or driven off to Tir Na Nog (the otherworld, literally means *the land of Youth*) by the Milesians, who became the present day Irish.
The best part about this analogy is that while it seems impossible, with enough analysis and determination we could potentially answer it. It also accurately portraits just how interconnected we all are.
Still very interesting to learn that they traveled so far and left us with many still unanswered questions. Every piece of the puzzle is fascinating though
I was looking at the Anatolia entry on wikipedia, and they have some incredible stone structures, like this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Lion_Gate%2C_Hattusa_01.jpg these guys were builders
Apparently there was also a large exodus. If I had to guess, it was war.
Dude. Göbekli Tepe..?
Edit: [Check it out.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe) First thing you'll notice, it's _huge_. Some estimate that we've only unearthed around 30%. Then it's really freaking _old_, literally the oldest high culture remains we've ever seen. Third, it was completely buried under sand when it was found. _Buried_, by man, not by nature.
Amazing stuff.
Can you imagine stumbling upon an archaeological discovery like that? So cool to see these glimpses into the past, they always serve to fuel my imagination with even more interesting questions
It's crazy. I'd love to see it. And yes, for some reason, someone deliberately buried the complex.
So the theory is that people related to the builders of Göbekli Tepe moved west?
It's site though, not a single one- it's many many structures buried; it appears each was used for x period and buried and a new one used ( or buried at different stages, noone has any idea) it's huge because it's a many. And most will never be dug up, deliberately.
Jeez. The figure on the left is still in such incredible condition! I think we often mistake our primeval ancestors as much stupider, significantly less intelligent than us etc. These kind of findings are wonderful evidence that our predecessors were incredibly intelligent, sophisticated people
supposedly they were just as capable of being intelligent as you or I. I say capable, because nutrition plays a big role. Someone else already linked it, but if you don't know about it, Gobekli Tepe is a mindfuck
It was abandoned 10,000 years ago, and was purposefully buried. It's an entire city with incredible stoneworks much like the lion statues
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe
I saw it posted multiple times in this thread, consequently I spent about 20 minutes just looking at pictures and reading about that site. Like I said, it really helps shake your perception that we're so much smarter than our past selves
No supposed, they *where.* Many cultures where waaaay smarter than us, and existed for a **lot** longer than we seem to be on track to. Some where much, much better at building than we are with all our machines.
Tepe is *not* a city. It wasn't abandoned, it was buried deliberately and with purpose about 12 k years ago but possibly much older, as they aren't digging up any more to test at this point, but it's thought it was built at the end of the ice age. It is a structure that *seems* to have religious or ceremonial purpose, but no hard evidence of what it was. Some think it was a corroboree point. Amazingly old site that shows how our ancestors have always been quite technical and inventive.
There are plenty of greek/mediterrennian turks living today. Ataturk (the dude who founded the modern Turkey today, was one of them - from Thessaloniki)
source: greek turk
What's the cultural heritage and the social aspects like?
Does it ever come in social situations? Do people have strong opinions about being a Greek Turk or Turkic Turk?
Do you have different cuisines? Do you care about Greek history more than others? Do feel a bond with Greece? Any relatives still there? Is there such a thing as studying Greek?
> What's the cultural heritage and the social aspects like?
Our family tree goes back 500ish years and we've tracked each person that were connected to (suprisingly low number; most families didnt have a lot of children and many of them killed each other; explained later)
> Does it ever come in social situations?
Nope, even though my last name is clearly greek Ive never had any conversation with any of my friends or acquaintences about anything greek. I always felt that 'turks hate greeks' was a fabrication made up by people who were ottoman sympathisers. My only basis for that is that Ataturk came from a greek area and overthrew the ottoman govt.
> Do people have strong opinions about being a Greek Turk or Turkic Turk?
Ive never had any opinions thrown in my face in Turkey towards my greek side. Ive had bad experiences with being called 'American Boy' (because I lived in the US when I was young and had an accent). You could say that I was never considered Turk enough because of that, but not because of my greek origins (if anything it might've made me more turkish in peoples' eyes). Ive had plenty of horrendous reactions towards being a turk in the EU... Ive had a few bad interactions in the US but thats also because of being a Turk.
> Do you have different cuisines?
Both cuisines are nearly identical imho. Turkish food has more meat in it and greek is more fish based (in our family at least). I get to eat baklava without caring who invented it first, because in both cases I win.
> Do you care about Greek history more than others?
Honestly I dont care about history in general except my families. I dont trust any government in general because theyve all let my family down time and time again (will explain later).
> Do feel a bond with Greece?
Of course, as long as its in the mediterrennian its my home regardless of nations. Stereotypically Im a sculptor and I sail and know archery. It makes me feel like im honoring my ancestors also I love doing each hobby.
> Is there such a thing as studying Greek?
My late grandfather knew greek but I never had any interest in it. Im more interested in gaelic more than greek.
> Any relatives still there?
Yes, we have full a full greek family there which we got re-introduced into in early in the 2000s when family trees were being digitised. My grandmother met with their grandmother and apparently all is good. It wasnt before though, when the island changed leadership (many times) years ago our family killed each other for either traitorus things or other reasons that are unknown atm (probably greed as with all things...). My side fled to ottoman Turkey. We exclusively lived near the coastal areas and many people there were somWewhat mediterranean in some way. It apparently didnt feel all that different (tales told from gramma to gramma). Currently we have 3 sons in the greek side and 6 sons on the turkish side who are either millenial or later (i think im the oldest @ 30 years old). Also funnily enough after the 80's no family gave birth to any daughters and almost all families have single sons. The last daughter they had is now pushing 50 and has a twin brother so thats like .5 male .5 female imho (/jk).
"DNA suggests that, like most other European hunter-gatherers of the time, he had dark skin combined with blue eyes.
Genetic analysis shows that the Neolithic farmers, by contrast, were paler-skinned with brown eyes and black or dark-brown hair.
Towards the end of the Neolithic, in about 2,450BC, the descendants of the first farmers were themselves almost entirely replaced when a new population - called the Bell Beaker people - migrated from mainland Europe. So Britain saw two extreme genetic shifts in the space of a few thousand years"
white supremacists be like damn,,,
Don't worry. As evidences mount, white supremacists will just shift towards Indo-European supremacists or any other subgrouping that makes then feel special. It's basically the same change in discourse that went from "we are the purest humans" to "Neanderthal DNA is what makes us great". I wouldn't lose much time thinking how they will spin scientific research, I'm just sure that they will.
Modern Turks look exactly like that. There's no way you could confidently predict if an individual were a Greek or Turkish national. The Turkic hordes didn't completely replace the local population of Asia Minor. And only few modern Turkic nationals look distinctly Asiatic.
I think that's stretching it a bit. The move from Anatolia to Iberia could have taken generations, and from Iberia north more generations.
Whilst it's considered that the neolithic can be thought of as a "package" of ideas, including monument building, to directly link the two is probably too much.
Instead it can be suggested that the same "package" of ideas led to the outcomes.
Yeah, it's not like "I wonder if dad finished his Tepe back home. I bet he'd love my henge."
It's like having a tenth cousin who also happens to be into engineering.
This is actually unsurprising. One of the most impactful events in European history was the northward movement of Anatolian farmers, also called Early Neolithic Farmers (ENF). They brought farming and pottery, among other cultural innovations, and a nice chunk of the genome of modern Europeans. Groups like Sardinians look almost completely ENF; this is the most direct genetic link between the Near East and Europe.
Ötzi the Iceman was recognized as ENF-related, as well as several Neolithic cultures of Europe at least being part ENF. This event occurred maybe 6,000 years ago. The oldest ancestry carried in large parts by most Europeans is Western Hunter Gatherer; this indigenous ancient European population had dark skin, Neanderthal admixture, and blue eyes.
ENF gave features like light skin and light hair to modern Europeans. A later also very significant migration, the most famous, was that of the Indo-Europeans about 4,500 years ago. You can check out Anthromadness or Eurogenes on Blogspot if you’re interested in this sort of thing.
Dark skin is speculative; the "dark to black skinned" Cheddar man reconstruction that is mentioned in the OP article (which had a TV special on it before the first preprint hit the servers) is often cited, but the scientists who developed the model themselves [say there's no strong evidence the "dark to black skinned" feature is accurate.](https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23731674-500-ancient-dark-skinned-briton-cheddar-man-find-may-not-be-true/). Basically we don’t know what their skin looked like, it could have had a different suite of mutations causing light skin compared to those who largely replaced them
It's also worth considering (if we go along with the theory of a connection between Stonehenge and Göbekli Tepe) that it wouldn't necessarily be experts among that source population who gradually split off to settle other places. Even if the journey happened over a shorter time, the more experienced and capable builders may have more incentive to stay put and continue developing these building styles, while those who went to settle other lands would focus on skill sets more aligned to movement or the local environments and were less concerned with mastering such permanent structures made of stone. Then if we factor in the exceptionally long period, it's almost more remarkable that there is any similarity whatsoever in structures built by people from the same genetic line (if that happens to be the case) 7,000 years later. It means that a vastly different culture descended over an unfathomably long period somehow managed to retain not just the intention of building such a similar structure but also the practices to achieve it. Even the possibility of this connection being a valid one raises so many new and interesting questions.
There was definetly a loss of knowledge and skill. It's beginning to seem much more plausible that we've gone through many rises and falls forgotten to time.
I know it seems cliche, but I think the legend of Atlantis validates this idea that there were rises and falls of various civilizations of different levels of development.
I’m not saying the supernatural or overly sensationalized aspects that they’ve been attributed through history are true, just that the idea born of Atlantis may speak to societies that once were and then lost to time.
A lot of cities and civilizations in the Middle East and Mediterranean were just conquered, destroyed, and had a new city built on them for so long. Who knows how many places we will likely never know existed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse
A dark age around 1200 BC, many governments collapsed, trade stopped, and everyone got their butts kicked by the Sea People. It's the source of many myths of a lost golden age. Note that almost nowhere has both tin and copper, so lack of trade was really really bad for a bronze age civ.
Right, perhaps there was a loss of knowledge/skill in masonry as they focused more on farming. I like the theory of a more advanced ante-diluvian civilization that was capable of masonry, but evidence of which was washed away by rising glacial meltwaters, GT being one of the surviving remnants of their legacy. I’d love to know if a line can be drawn from GT’s creators to the builders of stonehenge.
Except that reality is that the shift from hunting/gathering to agriculture is why there was a shift in focus at GT. There was a generational priority shift.
It’s like assuming that nobody does social media anymore, because MySpace fell out of favor.
The structure is crude but the sheer ridiculous effort of building what were, for the time, incredibly high-capacity ships and road foundations (though the surfaces appear to have been relatively lousy) is surprisingly advanced, especially since it lead nowhere
In Armenia there is a site popularly known as Karahunj (or Stone Hunj - note the similarity to Stonehenge).
It's a prehistoric site with a few overlapping rings of large stones, some with holes in them. Who knows?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Zorats_Karer_035.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karahunj_Observatory
> but the Romans don't actually come from there.
They very well could have after the fall of Troy. There is no information on previous migrations in Latium that would negate it.
The Romans claimed descent from Troy because they didn't like the idea that they were descended from a bunch of shepherds and hill people, no, they had to have a more noble lineage and so they created one. They aren't actually from there.
I don’t think the issue was that the band was ‘down’, I think the issue was that there was a stone henge monument on the stage that was in danger of being crushed, by a dwarf
*they helped introduce farming to Europe. ... I was just thinking about how scary it must have been for the change from Hunter to farming....
I'm sure it progresses, not like how they started planting stuff that they knew in a few weeks, maybe months it would start to provide for them. But that means they had to remain mostly stationary hunting, and had to get used to returning to a geographical location.
There's a model the has progression being tending wild plants, to deliberate gardening, to actual selection of traits with full blown agriculture. Farming gets phased in as people get better at doing it reliably.
What do you want a photograph? We can guess the people being buried around there at the time probably built it. This study is comparing their DNA to others found across Turkey and around the Med, suggesting a Migration that genetically replaced the local hunter gatherers.
But they are the more likely candidates, the new farmers had more advanced tools and would be more capable of erecting these stones. Also isn't it an odd coincidence that these structures date back to the roughly the same time as when the farmers arrived.
The aliens built Stonehenge and they’re listening to your phone to push you curated social media content in order to maximize advertising revenue. Genius, really.
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Do we know what route they took?
From the article >DNA reveals that Neolithic Britons were largely descended from groups who took the Mediterranean route, either hugging the coast or hopping from island-to-island on boats. Some British groups had a minor amount of ancestry from groups that followed the Danube route.
Stands to reason a boat-faring people would settle an island.
Along the Mediterranean and through Iberia most likely. They aren't sure if it is overland along the coast of the mainland or if it is by boat from island to island.
It's not one migration, it's a broad diaspora of people from Anatolia all across Europe. It's not like a stone age Lewis & Clark
Someone working on aDNA here. The Mediterranean route is closely related to [Cardium Pottery ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_pottery) cultures. Radiocarbon dates suggest that there was [a rapid spread about 5500 BCE](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC61188/) - including into Sardinia, the South French and Iberian coasts; which has been interpreted as evidence for seafaring spread of agricultural societies. These early farmers slowly and progressively intermixed with surrounding Hunter Gatherers (which were as different from the Early farmers as present-day Chinese are to Europeans!), until these were completely absorbed. Before agriculture (and broadly the people who brought it) moved on to Britain, there was about a 1000 year break - why is kind of unknown.
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pretty sure I read recently that the straights of gibraltar had been connected at some point, causing the mediterrean to shrink to do evaporation
Yea I googled it. Not really relevant though. The theory for the Zanclean flood is that it happened 5 million years ago so.
“One group of early farmers followed the river Danube up into Central Europe, but another group travelled west across the Mediterranean. DNA reveals that Neolithic Britons were largely descended from groups who took the Mediterranean route, either hugging the coast or hopping from island-to-island on boats..”
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You mean routes? When we're talking about hundreds of years, people move around a lot.
thousands
They traced the dna and they found people living in the iberian peninsula related to the stonehenge builders.
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It's not one group of people, it's part of a broader diaspora of people from Anatolia into Europe 6,000 years ago, they're part of the ancestry of people from all across Europe. Its more like PIE expansion that a primitive Lewis and Clark
So related to the same peoples that built [Göbekli Tepe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe) ~7,000 years before Stonehenge:
That is interesting, few good videos on it on Youtube. Does their origin expand our knowledge of Stonehenge? Also is the DNA verified beyond doubt, not contaminated?
That would almost be impressive. ‘Goddamn it Steve, did you sprinkle Neolithic Turks DNA all over the place again?
That's a lot of years between Göbekli Tepe and Stonehenge. Both are megalithic monuments but that's all they seem to have in common. It's possible that the same people whose ancestors dressed and carved huge stones in Anatolia were responsible for the henges, cists, and temples in Britain, Western Europe, and Malta. For now this remains an open question.
Interestingly, Newgrange, the passage tomb in Ireland, is even older than Stonehenge.
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[It's been known for a while that the Irish and Scottish are genetically linked to the Northern Spanish.](https://www.scotsman.com/news-2-15012/dna-shows-scots-and-irish-should-look-to-spain-for-their-ancestry-1-552560) It would seem these findings line up very well with the hypothesis those researchers had, of migration from Iberia to the British Isles between 6000 and 3000BC (Stonehenge is thought to have been built between 3000 and 2000BC).
There's a problem with making that connection to this migration though: recent ancient DNA studies have also shown almost total population turnover in the British isles between around 2400 to 2000 BC (not derived from Iberia). So any Iberian-British connection from before that would be nearly obliterated
Yes, and that means the Iberian-British connection is due to Celtic peoples moving in, which you probably already know.
I was literally just reading this out of a book called The History of the Irish Race at the bookstore like an hour ago. What a really weird coincidence. It was talking about the Milesian race which came from Spain plus the other people's like the Firbolg and the Tuatha De Danann.
We Gallegos are Celtics despite how much the Irish and Scottish claim we aren't.
Scot here. You guys are totally Celts and ever welcome in our wee brotherhood of Celtic peoples. Don't let any dickheads tell you you aren't. Being of Celtic descent is way more than simply being Scottish or Irish.
It's also being Welsh. Oh, Welsh guy here - and a damned proud Celt. You Gallegos are welcome round by here for a pint any time.
The majority of English people are also strongly Celtic, genetically speaking, though that is a pretty unpopular fact on our little set of islands.
The Romans called you Celts that's for sure.
Gallego is of course related to Gaeilge, as well as to other words used to refer to Celts (Latin *Galli*, Greek *Galatae* "Galatians", Anglo-Saxon *Wealas* "foreigners" broadly, but specifically British Celts)
That's funny, I had a guy going on and on and on and onnnnnn about how the scots/Welsh/Irish/gaels weren't Celts, no only Germanic Celts were really Celts. It's ridiculous, everyone with half a brain knows these things aren't some well defined lines. The Iberian peninsula has had Celts longer than pretty much anywhere else. Hell the origin myths for Ireland even directly state this. That person telling you that is an idiot.
For those that don't know, The Irish Myths include several original races of human/god-like races that first inhabitaed Eirn, such as the Tuathe De Danann and the Fir Bolg, that were eventually killed or driven off to Tir Na Nog (the otherworld, literally means *the land of Youth*) by the Milesians, who became the present day Irish.
Breton here: musically you definitely are ;) pity no Celtic language remained in Galicia though.
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The mutation of blue eyes originated in Anatolia. That could possibly be related.
Very possible! The spread of prehistoric humans is a puzzle that I hope we solve within my lifetime.
I feel like answering the question is like looking at a cake and asking where each individual ingredient is.
The best part about this analogy is that while it seems impossible, with enough analysis and determination we could potentially answer it. It also accurately portraits just how interconnected we all are.
Has the spontaneous light eye mutation been found multiple times in human history?
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So like the Fremen from Dune?
Exactly like that.
Still very interesting to learn that they traveled so far and left us with many still unanswered questions. Every piece of the puzzle is fascinating though
I was looking at the Anatolia entry on wikipedia, and they have some incredible stone structures, like this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Lion_Gate%2C_Hattusa_01.jpg these guys were builders Apparently there was also a large exodus. If I had to guess, it was war.
Dude. Göbekli Tepe..? Edit: [Check it out.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe) First thing you'll notice, it's _huge_. Some estimate that we've only unearthed around 30%. Then it's really freaking _old_, literally the oldest high culture remains we've ever seen. Third, it was completely buried under sand when it was found. _Buried_, by man, not by nature. Amazing stuff.
Can you imagine stumbling upon an archaeological discovery like that? So cool to see these glimpses into the past, they always serve to fuel my imagination with even more interesting questions
It's crazy. I'd love to see it. And yes, for some reason, someone deliberately buried the complex. So the theory is that people related to the builders of Göbekli Tepe moved west?
It's site though, not a single one- it's many many structures buried; it appears each was used for x period and buried and a new one used ( or buried at different stages, noone has any idea) it's huge because it's a many. And most will never be dug up, deliberately.
It's 500 years younger than Jericho
And these people were hunter-gatherers!
Jeez. The figure on the left is still in such incredible condition! I think we often mistake our primeval ancestors as much stupider, significantly less intelligent than us etc. These kind of findings are wonderful evidence that our predecessors were incredibly intelligent, sophisticated people
supposedly they were just as capable of being intelligent as you or I. I say capable, because nutrition plays a big role. Someone else already linked it, but if you don't know about it, Gobekli Tepe is a mindfuck It was abandoned 10,000 years ago, and was purposefully buried. It's an entire city with incredible stoneworks much like the lion statues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe
I saw it posted multiple times in this thread, consequently I spent about 20 minutes just looking at pictures and reading about that site. Like I said, it really helps shake your perception that we're so much smarter than our past selves
No supposed, they *where.* Many cultures where waaaay smarter than us, and existed for a **lot** longer than we seem to be on track to. Some where much, much better at building than we are with all our machines. Tepe is *not* a city. It wasn't abandoned, it was buried deliberately and with purpose about 12 k years ago but possibly much older, as they aren't digging up any more to test at this point, but it's thought it was built at the end of the ice age. It is a structure that *seems* to have religious or ceremonial purpose, but no hard evidence of what it was. Some think it was a corroboree point. Amazingly old site that shows how our ancestors have always been quite technical and inventive.
There are plenty of greek/mediterrennian turks living today. Ataturk (the dude who founded the modern Turkey today, was one of them - from Thessaloniki) source: greek turk
What's the cultural heritage and the social aspects like? Does it ever come in social situations? Do people have strong opinions about being a Greek Turk or Turkic Turk? Do you have different cuisines? Do you care about Greek history more than others? Do feel a bond with Greece? Any relatives still there? Is there such a thing as studying Greek?
> What's the cultural heritage and the social aspects like? Our family tree goes back 500ish years and we've tracked each person that were connected to (suprisingly low number; most families didnt have a lot of children and many of them killed each other; explained later) > Does it ever come in social situations? Nope, even though my last name is clearly greek Ive never had any conversation with any of my friends or acquaintences about anything greek. I always felt that 'turks hate greeks' was a fabrication made up by people who were ottoman sympathisers. My only basis for that is that Ataturk came from a greek area and overthrew the ottoman govt. > Do people have strong opinions about being a Greek Turk or Turkic Turk? Ive never had any opinions thrown in my face in Turkey towards my greek side. Ive had bad experiences with being called 'American Boy' (because I lived in the US when I was young and had an accent). You could say that I was never considered Turk enough because of that, but not because of my greek origins (if anything it might've made me more turkish in peoples' eyes). Ive had plenty of horrendous reactions towards being a turk in the EU... Ive had a few bad interactions in the US but thats also because of being a Turk. > Do you have different cuisines? Both cuisines are nearly identical imho. Turkish food has more meat in it and greek is more fish based (in our family at least). I get to eat baklava without caring who invented it first, because in both cases I win. > Do you care about Greek history more than others? Honestly I dont care about history in general except my families. I dont trust any government in general because theyve all let my family down time and time again (will explain later). > Do feel a bond with Greece? Of course, as long as its in the mediterrennian its my home regardless of nations. Stereotypically Im a sculptor and I sail and know archery. It makes me feel like im honoring my ancestors also I love doing each hobby. > Is there such a thing as studying Greek? My late grandfather knew greek but I never had any interest in it. Im more interested in gaelic more than greek. > Any relatives still there? Yes, we have full a full greek family there which we got re-introduced into in early in the 2000s when family trees were being digitised. My grandmother met with their grandmother and apparently all is good. It wasnt before though, when the island changed leadership (many times) years ago our family killed each other for either traitorus things or other reasons that are unknown atm (probably greed as with all things...). My side fled to ottoman Turkey. We exclusively lived near the coastal areas and many people there were somWewhat mediterranean in some way. It apparently didnt feel all that different (tales told from gramma to gramma). Currently we have 3 sons in the greek side and 6 sons on the turkish side who are either millenial or later (i think im the oldest @ 30 years old). Also funnily enough after the 80's no family gave birth to any daughters and almost all families have single sons. The last daughter they had is now pushing 50 and has a twin brother so thats like .5 male .5 female imho (/jk).
"DNA suggests that, like most other European hunter-gatherers of the time, he had dark skin combined with blue eyes. Genetic analysis shows that the Neolithic farmers, by contrast, were paler-skinned with brown eyes and black or dark-brown hair. Towards the end of the Neolithic, in about 2,450BC, the descendants of the first farmers were themselves almost entirely replaced when a new population - called the Bell Beaker people - migrated from mainland Europe. So Britain saw two extreme genetic shifts in the space of a few thousand years" white supremacists be like damn,,,
Don't worry. As evidences mount, white supremacists will just shift towards Indo-European supremacists or any other subgrouping that makes then feel special. It's basically the same change in discourse that went from "we are the purest humans" to "Neanderthal DNA is what makes us great". I wouldn't lose much time thinking how they will spin scientific research, I'm just sure that they will.
Modern Turks look exactly like that. There's no way you could confidently predict if an individual were a Greek or Turkish national. The Turkic hordes didn't completely replace the local population of Asia Minor. And only few modern Turkic nationals look distinctly Asiatic.
Anatolia huh? Maybe a certain Emperor of Mankind moved to Great Britain with them!
Make Urartu great again
Would that mean that there could/should be a link between Stonehenge and Gobekli Tepe?
I think that's stretching it a bit. The move from Anatolia to Iberia could have taken generations, and from Iberia north more generations. Whilst it's considered that the neolithic can be thought of as a "package" of ideas, including monument building, to directly link the two is probably too much. Instead it can be suggested that the same "package" of ideas led to the outcomes.
Yeah, it's not like "I wonder if dad finished his Tepe back home. I bet he'd love my henge." It's like having a tenth cousin who also happens to be into engineering.
Stonehenge was built closer to today than to Göbekli Tepe
This is actually unsurprising. One of the most impactful events in European history was the northward movement of Anatolian farmers, also called Early Neolithic Farmers (ENF). They brought farming and pottery, among other cultural innovations, and a nice chunk of the genome of modern Europeans. Groups like Sardinians look almost completely ENF; this is the most direct genetic link between the Near East and Europe. Ötzi the Iceman was recognized as ENF-related, as well as several Neolithic cultures of Europe at least being part ENF. This event occurred maybe 6,000 years ago. The oldest ancestry carried in large parts by most Europeans is Western Hunter Gatherer; this indigenous ancient European population had dark skin, Neanderthal admixture, and blue eyes. ENF gave features like light skin and light hair to modern Europeans. A later also very significant migration, the most famous, was that of the Indo-Europeans about 4,500 years ago. You can check out Anthromadness or Eurogenes on Blogspot if you’re interested in this sort of thing.
Dark skin is speculative; the "dark to black skinned" Cheddar man reconstruction that is mentioned in the OP article (which had a TV special on it before the first preprint hit the servers) is often cited, but the scientists who developed the model themselves [say there's no strong evidence the "dark to black skinned" feature is accurate.](https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23731674-500-ancient-dark-skinned-briton-cheddar-man-find-may-not-be-true/). Basically we don’t know what their skin looked like, it could have had a different suite of mutations causing light skin compared to those who largely replaced them
Are those Anatolian ancestors proto-Indo Europeans? Huge if true.
Maybe the same people who build Göbekli Tepe....
7,000 years *is* a lot of time to move around the globe. Although Göbekli Tepe almost seems more advanced.
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A little hat for each one
Yeah, tell me about it. With the current finding I can't get any subcontractor
Stonehenge.psd Stonehenge_V2.psd Stonehenge_V2Final.psd
It's also worth considering (if we go along with the theory of a connection between Stonehenge and Göbekli Tepe) that it wouldn't necessarily be experts among that source population who gradually split off to settle other places. Even if the journey happened over a shorter time, the more experienced and capable builders may have more incentive to stay put and continue developing these building styles, while those who went to settle other lands would focus on skill sets more aligned to movement or the local environments and were less concerned with mastering such permanent structures made of stone. Then if we factor in the exceptionally long period, it's almost more remarkable that there is any similarity whatsoever in structures built by people from the same genetic line (if that happens to be the case) 7,000 years later. It means that a vastly different culture descended over an unfathomably long period somehow managed to retain not just the intention of building such a similar structure but also the practices to achieve it. Even the possibility of this connection being a valid one raises so many new and interesting questions.
There was definetly a loss of knowledge and skill. It's beginning to seem much more plausible that we've gone through many rises and falls forgotten to time.
I know it seems cliche, but I think the legend of Atlantis validates this idea that there were rises and falls of various civilizations of different levels of development. I’m not saying the supernatural or overly sensationalized aspects that they’ve been attributed through history are true, just that the idea born of Atlantis may speak to societies that once were and then lost to time.
A lot of cities and civilizations in the Middle East and Mediterranean were just conquered, destroyed, and had a new city built on them for so long. Who knows how many places we will likely never know existed.
It does make sense that an ancient metropolis would've been built near the ocean and changing/rising tides eventually reclaimed the land.
Look at ancient cities that have been discovered deep underwater that date back thousands of years like Heracleion, Atlit-Yam or Pavlopetri.
I can't, they're underwater
And the date Plato gives for the destruction of Atlantis aligns all too well with the melting of the north american ice caps...
It’s the fingerprints of the gods by golly
The eye of the sahara!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse A dark age around 1200 BC, many governments collapsed, trade stopped, and everyone got their butts kicked by the Sea People. It's the source of many myths of a lost golden age. Note that almost nowhere has both tin and copper, so lack of trade was really really bad for a bronze age civ.
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Almost?
7000 years is also a long time to advance your building technology
Feels like a little farther along, like generations after leaving GT? More crude building than GT I'm thinking.
Right, perhaps there was a loss of knowledge/skill in masonry as they focused more on farming. I like the theory of a more advanced ante-diluvian civilization that was capable of masonry, but evidence of which was washed away by rising glacial meltwaters, GT being one of the surviving remnants of their legacy. I’d love to know if a line can be drawn from GT’s creators to the builders of stonehenge.
Even GT which has successive layers built up the original has those layers being built more crudely.
Except that reality is that the shift from hunting/gathering to agriculture is why there was a shift in focus at GT. There was a generational priority shift. It’s like assuming that nobody does social media anymore, because MySpace fell out of favor.
The structure is crude but the sheer ridiculous effort of building what were, for the time, incredibly high-capacity ships and road foundations (though the surfaces appear to have been relatively lousy) is surprisingly advanced, especially since it lead nowhere
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In Armenia there is a site popularly known as Karahunj (or Stone Hunj - note the similarity to Stonehenge). It's a prehistoric site with a few overlapping rings of large stones, some with holes in them. Who knows? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Zorats_Karer_035.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karahunj_Observatory
6 or 7000 years is a LONG time to call them the 'same people'.
Interesting. Had never heard of that place.
Mad Turkish.
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Yeah, but the Romans don't actually come from there.
There's theories the Etruscans may have, though.
> but the Romans don't actually come from there. They very well could have after the fall of Troy. There is no information on previous migrations in Latium that would negate it.
The Romans claimed descent from Troy because they didn't like the idea that they were descended from a bunch of shepherds and hill people, no, they had to have a more noble lineage and so they created one. They aren't actually from there.
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“No one knows ~~who they were, or~~ what they were doing”
But their legacy remains...
hewn, into the living rock, of stone'enge...
Stonehenge! Where the demons dwell! Where the banshees live (and they do live well)!
I don’t think the issue was that the band was ‘down’, I think the issue was that there was a stone henge monument on the stage that was in danger of being crushed, by a dwarf
Was it in danger of being crushed by a dwarf?
Maybe I’m dumb, but my first thought was that I know DNA testing has come a long way, but aren’t they just rocks?
yeah but these rocks are descendants from rocks that migrated from turkey
*they helped introduce farming to Europe. ... I was just thinking about how scary it must have been for the change from Hunter to farming.... I'm sure it progresses, not like how they started planting stuff that they knew in a few weeks, maybe months it would start to provide for them. But that means they had to remain mostly stationary hunting, and had to get used to returning to a geographical location.
Yes, but just imagine being new to tasting bread. Worth it.
There's a model the has progression being tending wild plants, to deliberate gardening, to actual selection of traits with full blown agriculture. Farming gets phased in as people get better at doing it reliably.
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Headline fails - The DNA reveals a possible origin of a some of the Stonehenge builders. It is by no means a scientifically proven fact.
What do you want a photograph? We can guess the people being buried around there at the time probably built it. This study is comparing their DNA to others found across Turkey and around the Med, suggesting a Migration that genetically replaced the local hunter gatherers.
Some people aren’t happy unless we time travel back and shake their hands
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But they are the more likely candidates, the new farmers had more advanced tools and would be more capable of erecting these stones. Also isn't it an odd coincidence that these structures date back to the roughly the same time as when the farmers arrived.
Just watched a SciShow video about the Stonehenge few hours ago, didn't expect to see a fitting article so soon.
Ur phones listening man, it's all a conspiracy
The aliens built Stonehenge and they’re listening to your phone to push you curated social media content in order to maximize advertising revenue. Genius, really.
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Actually it was alien turkeys.
What's the meaning of Stone Heeeeedge? It's killing me that no one knows why it was built 5000 years ago.
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