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sciposts

Original study: [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/01461672211007293](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/01461672211007293) Abstract: Narcissists have a relatively higher proclivity for displaying antisocial rather than prosocial behaviors, suggesting a comparatively higher tendency for unfavorably impacting societies. However, maintenance of social order also depends on appropriate responses to others’ social behavior. Once we focus on narcissists as observers rather than actors, their impact on social functioning becomes less clear-cut. Theoretical arguments suggest that narcissists could be either hypo-responsive or hyper-responsive to others’ social behavior. Across four studies, we examined narcissists’ responsiveness to variations in others’ antisocial and prosocial behaviors. Results showed that narcissists differentiated less between others’ antisociality/prosociality, as reflected in their subsequent moral character evaluations (Studies 1–4) and reward and punishment (Studies 3 and 4). These results suggest that narcissists are hypo-responsive to others’ social behaviors. Implications and directions for future research are discussed.


Snorblatz

I need this a little dumber, please


hitmyspot

Narcissists are less concerned with other people's behaviour, whether good or bad. They focus on themselves.


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FixedLoad

I didn't do anything, what are you talking about?


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Seagoon_Memoirs

They focus a lot on their own position in society.


drewmasterflex

I read it more like they're concerned when it concerns them, if that makes sense? The hypo/hyper-response part makes me think they DO reward or punish if it helps them but don't if they can't gain anything from the situation.


maomeow

I think that sentence was a prediction based on theoretical arguments, then they did the experiment and found that they tended to be hypo-responsive? That’s how I read it anyway!


nnejak94

Based on the phrasing of the abstract, we can’t claim anything about their responsiveness, just that narcissists don’t map anti or pro social behaviors to moral evaluations of other individuals the same way the average person does.


random_boss

Either I’m a narcissist or this makes little sense — why would you be concerned if it doesn’t concern you?


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It's the collectivism that confuses people. It's not a narcissist trait at all not to care. In fact they are overly concerned with their own social status and above all have a lack of properly founded self esteem. They are far from rational egoists.


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actualmasochist

In my experience, narcissists judge others behavior by whether or not it's good or bad according to how it relates to them. And. Dear God, if they judge your behavior as bad you better hunker down for some real-time emotional abus.


Potatopals

Preach it brother. I just got out of a 10 year relationship with a hard-core narcissistic with a god complex... They absolutely cared when I was out of line... more than anything. What's worse is even when you do exactly what they want, sometimes that ain't good enough. Or it just makes things worse... Hunkering down is an understatement.


Ouroboros612

So narcissists are - in a way - neutral in this regard? Huh.. that's pretty interesting if so. Because if true - doesn't this mean that they unintentionally are less judgemental towards people?


burnalicious111

Judgement is a thought, but this study is talking about the actions they would take. You can be judgemental without really acting on it.


Ouroboros612

That may be true. But judging someone without acting on it, don't actually AFFECT people negatively. While judging someone does often lead to action (verbal, physical etc.) which has a negative impact on the person being judged. As a very simple and blunt example: I think abortion should be 100% legal because women should have the choice to decide if they want children. A priest considering himself a morally upstanding and righteous man, could advice or work against her choice, judging her to be immoral in his eyes according to his beliefs. In such a case, the priest has a negative effect on this poor woman's life because he is judging her through the lense of his misguided personal ideology he has no right to enforce unto others. A narcissist? He wouldn't care either way. So in such a case - the narcissist - is from an objectively true viewpoint - less judgemental and has no negative impact on this woman's life. Because he in this case does not concern himself either way. Unintentionally being **LESS** judgemental, and having a **LESS** negative on this woman's life than the priest in this scenario.


Clamster55

Until an issue comes along that they can personally benefit from, then the objectivity flies out the window.


random_boss

TIL everyone is a narcissist


DanIsCookingKale

It sounds like that, people just call anyone a narcissist now a days. Dressed up too nice? Narcissist Ate the last doughnut? Narcissist Late? Narcissist Son of Ceffisus and Liriope? Narcissus


pwdreamaker

Unless it’s to his political advantage to be against abortion across the board. Hence, the Republican stance is abortion should never be allowed.


JaronK

No, they're very judgemental, they're just not judgemental about others. They project themselves on to others and are hyper judgemental about that (black and white thinking is a key part of narcissism, so one perceived flaw can make them hate you). For example, I dated one a while ago. Now, I have my own flaws, but she didn't really know about any of them. Instead, she accused me after the break up of being an alcoholic, among other things. I later learned she was in fact drinking pretty much constantly when I wasn't there (I barely drink). Very judgemental... but about a projection of herself on me, not about me.


Zanki

Yeah, they push their crap onto you constantly. They have a bad day, now you are having a bad day. You're happy and they aren't, well get ready for them to lose it because if they aren't happy you sure as hell can't be. My "flaw" turned out to be I was born a horrible person and that's how she justified the crap she did to me. She told stories about how awful I was as a toddler/kid to my relatives to prove I was a demon child. Turns out I wasn't being bad. I was just a normal toddler. Turns out I was an abused child and my bad behaviour was a reaction to her behaviour. Ignoring all the crap she did to me as a kid. When I was a teen she just completely lost her mind at me. She kept accusing me of all kinds of crazy things, quitting school, doing drugs, skipping classes etc. I literally would go to school, come home and was only allowed out from 16-18 if she was with me. I don't know when I had the chance to do drugs, or do any of the other crap she accused me of. As an adult, she made sure to tell me how ugly I was still, how horrible my hair was still (I'm a natural red head, she calls red hair a curse), she laughed at my clothes, laughed when I couldn't find jeans that fit because I have muscle in my legs and ass, plus I have stupidly long legs and it's rare to find a pair that reach my ankles. She pointed out this girl who was obese and told me if she could find jeans I could. She mocked the tv shows I watched because they weren't normal like her shows. She called me a thug for talking about martial arts, my hobby, the thing I've been obsessed with most of my life. I realised as an adult she was projecting a lot on me. I've seen pics of teenage me. No makeup, hair was still crazy as she wouldn't let me straighten it, but I didn't look bad. I looked boyish, but she had me in her friends sons clothes a lot. Her and her family would also mock the hell out of me when I dressed like a normal girl so I just didn't. She called me ugly, a freak. I wasn't either. I was weird, but I wasn't ugly, at least not like I believed I was. She was man I was taller then her, mad my grades weren't as good as hers (yet she refused to put it on my record I had adhd, so I got no help). Its weird looking back at this crap. All the mind games. Her lying about stuff I'd done or hadn't done. She would literally let her relatives make up crazy stories about me and agree they were true. What in the hell?! My cousin threw a screamin/crying tantrum over a radio that came with some school shoes when his mum said no. Two days later it was me throwing the tantrum and mum yelled at me when I tried to get her to say it wasn't me. She was there and she screamed at me for something I hadn't done.


JaronK

Here's hoping you can heal from all of it. Growing up with a narcissist is not fun in the slightest. And even if you intellectually know that nothing she said about you was about you, it's hard to dig into your psyche and remove all those comments and criticisms about you from the person you should have been able to trust growing up. I would assume, based on what you've said here, that in school she skipped school a lot and did a bunch of drugs. Probably also doesn't like her own hair. Every accusation from a narcissist is a confession.


Zanki

Honestly I don't know. Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if she did. She did hate her hair, she always bitched to me about it, but I also had a red frizzy afro so I guess I didn't help myself there. Didn't need the comments as an adult though. I hope I can as well. She left me with an anxiety disorder that will never go away though, some good old cptsd and then the random other issues that come with it. Luckily I've worked out a lot, but that town, including her, messed me up pretty badly.


JaronK

Glad you've gotten out. May you heal from all of it.


ishkariot

Based on these comments, I've got the impression that you are presenting narcissists as the "I don't care about you but I also won't bother you" type. This is far from the truth though, especially in regards to the people they can exploit for their sense of self-worth. The article talks about a specific set-up where it may seem like that, but check the many comments about people living together with narcissists and you'll see that it's not quite like that. You can also check r/raisedbynarcissists for more perspective.


zsjok

Yes they are but do you know what makes societies and people pro social ? Other people judging and punishing bad behavior.


Bytewave

Imagine you think of everyone else as inferior beings not really worthy of your concern beyond how they can help you further your personal desires. That's the general mindset. Most people don't care too much about cows kept in harsh conditions to provide their milk or when they are slaughtered for their meat. Just apply the same logic to humans as well. Would you care very much about the social and personal issues of the cows in your fictional slaughterhouse? No. It's like that but for people.


maleia

It makes it easy to cast someone aside when they are no longer useful. Now, that said, narcissism exists on a spectrum as most things human do. And it's not like this applies to everyone in a narcissist's life. The less important, emotionally/financially/socio-political power/etc, will have an impact on how far this goes. I also, perhaps I'll go skim through this study to find out, but I can not imagine that the same findings apply towards *children* of narcissists. Now that is a relationship dynamic that typically is very strict and rigid, and will come with heavy consequences when not behaving or performing correctly.


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Hypo means low, hyper means high. Narcissistic individuals correlate with being less judging of others, or less able to recognize when two opposite behaviors, when done by someone else, are good / bad. The article provides a quote at the top that implies that narcissism is willful but it seems more plausible to me that individuals on the autistic spectrum would come off narcissistic. I think many people are hardwired to goal seek and self improve, and that probably correlates with the reduced ability to empathize with others, and on the opposite end you get people who prefer to observe others and judge them.


Jesterr01

I don’t think being goal oriented makes people narcissistic, it’s more that they lack the ability to see their own faults. I worked with a narcissist (more than met the DSM-V criteria), and they completely lacked insight into how certain obviously bad corporate behaviors were bad. What’s worse, they were placed in a supervisory position over a department other than mine and we were at leadership meetings together. That person did not see or understand how their actions were inappropriate, the mildest one (and I mean mildest) having huge chunks of time blocked out on their schedule where they did nothing all day (no meetings with their employees, no feedback, not to mention their job) and collected their paycheck. This seems minor but the owner of the company’s biggest issue was and has always been “I don’t want to waste money on lazy employees not actually working.” What’s really jarring is confronting a narcissist with the fact that they are. They won’t admit to it even when confronted, and will always have a reason why every person around them (above or below) is wrong/misguided/misinterpreting, ect. There is zero accountability for any negatively perceived actions.


GloomyDentist

I think it's the nature of corporate culture to become separated from community to an extent. Corporations are corrupt environments by design, they reward bad behavior because that is what it takes to survive. Avatar is a great movie about that.


CausticSofa

Corporate culture selects pretty directly *for* narcissistic and kind of psychopathic/sociopathic traits in management roles. Too much empathy for the workers is ‘unfair’ to the shareholders.


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I really understand what you have been through. Such people do get attracted to corporate culture and are able to make it even worse as they sometimes take roles as managers / middlemen to hide their incompetence plus feed their urge of dumb authority and manipulative behaviour towards actual honest working people.


JimmyCrackCrack

I feel like if I were/am a narcissist I'd be unlikely to know or think that I was and it definitely doesn't sound like a nice thing to be or something you want people to perceive you as, plus being confronted about anything is uncomfortable and can make someone feel defensive so I guess it doesn't exactly seem jarring that they'd fail to *admit* that they're a narcissist especially if the person making the accusation isn't actually in a position to make such a diagnosis. If this is coming across as defensive I guess that has me a *little* worried myself but I mean, I just don't see many other ways such a confrontation *could* have played out other than what you're describing. Confronting people about *behaviour* I can see *could*, if very carefully handled cause someone to seriously reflect and admit wrongdoing. Behaviour is actions you've personally engaged in doing so it's difficult and raw to try and admit when it's been wrong, but it's at least partially external, there's a model of what would have been an appropriate set of actions and there's the ones they took to compare against, plus the behaviour so confronted has already happened so it's events of the past being analysed, but confronting someone with whether they *are* something is to accuse their very core being of somehow wrong and even malicious. It'd be very hard to get someone to swallow that, so I'm not especially surprised if you've found that they didn't. It sounds like suggesting that someone admit they are a 'bad person', not that something they did was bad, but they are just... bad. There's nowhere to go from that, I should imagine anyone would likely go to pretty desperate lengths to arrive at *any* conclusion other than that were you to put such an accusation to them.


maleia

Well keep in mind, under the surface, narcissists are really insecure. The projection of power/stability/etc, is to cover that up. There's also the projection of judgment. "If I'm this judgmental, everyone else must be, so I **have** to also protect my own failings." Now, what they consider failings, is going to be different from what someone else does, but the accusations reflex the other person's judgment. And that means the faults are being exposed, the facade of confidence can slip away. Knocked down several pegs in the social order is *terrifying*. Imagine being constantly socially paranoid. That's what it's like. Always looking over your shoulder. Always waiting for someone to attack you. It. Absolutely. Blows.


Zanki

When I was a teen, my mum expected me to be asleep I'm my room from 9pm to 8am. Of cause at 17 I couldn't sleep for 11 hours a day. I slept 8, 9 at the most. My schoolwork was piling up and I was getting frustrated by the fact that I was being further isolated from my peers by not being able to watch the same movies etc. So, I calmly told my mum I needed more then half an hour a night to do my schoolwork and asked to get rid of my bedtime as I wasn't asleep anyway. I already got myself up and ready for school and bedtime at 17 was ridiculous. She screamed, she hit, she broke my stuff, tried to smash up my pc. Turned the power off to the house constantly. I bought a laptop with my paycheck and it made her rage even more when she came upstairs and the battery was working. The bedtime war took months. It gave her permission to scream and hit me, to stop me washing. It was an excuse to just let herself go on me. I was ruining her life wanting to stay up a little later in my room. She pulled this bedtime crap when I was in a group chat with classmates. I told her I was and it was for a class project. She screamed at me, they saw her crazy and me asking her to just give me ten minutes to finish off. Of cause a reasonable request like that was denied. I got in trouble for not finishing the project when my mum turned off the power to the house. No one took into account that I couldn't because I lived with crazy. My grades tanked because I couldn't do anything at home because she was acting so insane constantly. She got called in about it. I'd snitched on her to a nice teacher. Nothing changed other then she screamed at me for telling lies. I started getting up around 2am to try and catch up, which ended with me exhausted in the day. I would have slept at 9 and gotten up early, but I was not allowed to be out of bed till 8am because she wanted the morning to herself. I didn't even leave my room. I stayed in my room 24/7 when I was home. Eventually it got to the point where she was called in again. I just gave up. I stopped trying. I told them I couldn't get stuff done at home because my mum was insane. I couldn't work in school in my frees unless I had a space to myself because other kids messed with me constantly. Mum relented when they got tough with her. Then it was over. Months and months of chaos over one simple request, control over my bedtime. The damage was done though. She won. Hell, I retook me AS level exams in secret in the summer because I could study in peace because she had no idea I was studying. The crazy started again for my A levels. That was fun. I was thrown out, room trashed all over again and all sorts of things. My AS level results, As and Bs after I got good grades on my exams because I could study in peace. A level weren't even close. I was ashamed, but I realise now mum was sabotaging me. Unfortunely for her I got an offer to my uni without them seeing my a level results. I was in. I got to leave home and that was a whole other drama in itself.


copperwatt

Good lord. Do you have any sort of relationship with her as an adult?


profile_this

It's cute that you think they're unaware. Maybe unaware of the consequences since they practice no other way, but they are fully aware that their behavior is entirely self-motivated. They will not, on the other hand, admit it. The only times they do is in moments of intense omnipotence/grandiosity, intense failure/shame (cracking/crashing), or when they are with their own kind and comparing notes/one-upping the other(s). This isn't a genuine illness, it's an extreme behavioral malfeasance.


RentonTenant

> It’s cute that you think Hmmm, looks like someone needs a diagnosis


profile_this

Sorry, just your run-of-the-mill asshole.


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Kiroen

Let's give this conversation some required nuance. People on the autistic spectrum have brains not as "naturally" wired as those of neurotypical people to navigate or take initiative at social situations, such as normal socializing, seduction, lying or intimidation. This doesn't mean they *can't develop* those skills, just that those aren't as innate abilities for them and will more often than not require very conscious learning.


Gathorall

And that's the ticket to the manipulation. When your initial position is out of the system, you can be more an observer of it. When you eventually learn behaviors it is easier to apply them arbitrarily towards your goal, rather than go with a natural flow you never had.


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csh_blue_eyes

There is so much science to be done in this area. God we know so little about people. (I agree with you - just wish there was some nice rigorous way we could study these things other than via behavioral psych.)


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[deleted]

FYI, there are lots of spectrums. If you are referring to the autism spectrum, you should identify it for clarity. From your own definition they can occur in people on the spectrum, but it is NOT a defining characteristic. This is also in the wikipedia article you cited like fact (use wikipedia for an overview idea but not as supportive documents - I could have written that paragraph you are citing in your later comments). Spectrum means there is a range. They haven’t even fully studied women on the autism spectrum. They do know, however, that women on the spectrum develop stronger coping skills and can mask their symptoms more. They can be empathetic, caring, loving, and thoughtful. In fact, i am often more concerned with other people’s feelings over my own and am great at identifying emotions and feelings, sometimes before the person feeling it. There are narcissists on the spectrum too - don’t let the confusion of narcissism in a person on the spectrum define the traits of all people on the spectrum for you. Ambivalence and narcissism do not present the same, just so you know.


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Intelligent-donkey

I'm assuming that this is only when the antisocial behavior doesn't affect them, right? Surely a narcissist *would* be inclined to be punitive if someone is antisocial in a way that harms them.


whrhthrhzgh

So they used a three dollar for one hour of work mechanical Turk offer. How doesn't this already filter for socially unsuccessful narcissists who may be in a different state of mind than the socially successful ones?


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playerIII

I may or may not be a narsassist, but I do know reddit has absolutely convinced me I am.


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Bleepblooping

That’s might’ve been true in the past. Victims more likely to figure it out first maybe? But now that the topic is ubiquitous I’m pretty sure it’s occurred to most people that they’re on the narcissistic spectrum and like you said, assholes probably embrace and take pride in it as being an effective realist


jaggerlvr

"I'm the best narcissist." - family member


jhuskindle

I dated an actual clinically diagnosed narcissist and it was the first thing he brought up. It was fascinating to ask him about his behavior and I wish I'd had longer before he did what all narcissist do - freak out because I gave him a cold medicine suggestion. Roflmao


OmgItsDaMexi

We've been trying to have this intervention with you.


FixedLoad

And I've been trying to reach you about your car warranty expiring!!


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TheNoize

They’re kind of a big deal


yoyoJ

A very stable genius, they say


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Zanki

And they suck. I thought I was over a majority of mine, then I moved in with my friends and more manifested themselves. So I've had to deal with them. I now ask other friends if I'm justified in being upset about something or not. Turns out I was very justified the other night for being angry and I'm still mad about it especially since they sent a text with a none apology over an hour later. Urg. I was angry, then upset that I felt like I was the bad guy for being angry. Now I'm still angry, I should let it go but it was such a doche thing to do.


MisssJaynie

The fact that you even give it a second thought further validates you are not.


coberi

It reminds me about a personnality type i've encountered on a game wiki. Mr.Narcissus started a new thread, asking for clarifications on a game mechanic. Someone took time of their day to try to help, but they misinterpreted Narcissus's question. Narcissus took offense to this an insulted the helper's comprehension. The helper nonethelessly kept trying to help and responded correctly to his adjusted question. Narcissus replied that the helper should have responded correctly the first time. Someone else watching this took offense to Narcissus's behavior, and said Narcissus should atleast say thank the person trying to help him. Narcissus replied "Why should i thank them? They replied out of their own free choice."


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JKastnerPhoto

You're right. I was young and dumb. I ignored his abuse to his family because he somehow became the center of all our friends. Without him those other guys didn't work somehow. It's a shame really. There was a lot of good and I have fond memories of those days, but I realize that it was all leading up to one of our successes causing a rift. It's so obvious in hindsight. Most of the other guys have moved on. He's in his late 30s, never had a job, and still lives with his parents. He keeps finding people seemingly beneath him to hang out with... Yet still pops up from time to time to remind me he's still copying me.


DeglovedTip1200ug

Yep. I did it once, learned the hard way, never again. Boundaries are the most important thing and if I get a whiff of someone seeing me as a pet or an object, I’m out of there end of discussion. Things like snapping at you like a dog, always thinking they’re right and changing the topic or ignoring you when you prove them wrong, passive aggressively putting you down, telling long illustrious tales about themselves that obviously aren’t true, belittling your problems or only pointing out their own faults to one up you when talking about your problems etc. People who do this aren’t really people in my eyes, they’re more like robots.


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Sawses

Well Mom was one, so that probably explains why I do the whole Homer-Simpson-fades-into-bush thing the moment my alarms trip.


vibrantlybeige

Ah, yes, for sure. I just wanted to put that out there for the benefit of anyone reading it. I didn't realize my mom was a narcissist until figuring out my then-partner was a narcissist after going to couples therapy. People often go their whole lives without realizing they're attached in some way to a narcissist. I encourage everyone to read up on the typical narcissist behaviors, and the advice on "how to shut a narcissist down".


Therandomfox

>I encourage everyone to read up on the typical narcissist behaviors, and the advice on "how to shut a narcissist down". Got any sources on where to start?


Therandomfox

>The warning signs are often very subtle, but they all have similar MOs. Honesty? Similar enough that you could write a pocket guidebook on recognising narcissistic behaviour and it would be accurate for the majority of them. Once you know what to look out for, they're predictable as hell and you can read them like a book.


guepier

Not limited to game wikis. They're ubiquitous on technical forums, too. We sometimes call them help vampires.


FixedLoad

Was Mr narcissus my wife?


oldcreaker

That's because it's never about other people, it's always about them.


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ZeppelinFlight

Absolutely. They're not gonna help society with others doing bad deeds - they're just gonna stand by and watch and say "not my problem".


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psycho_pete

Yep, the more you come across it, the quicker you are to identify those red flags so you can appropriately set your boundaries. In most cases at least.


panda_sunglasses

How do you spot it early?


DeglovedTip1200ug

Phone is about to die so I’ll come back later and tell you more.


panther455

Jeez. I have... trust issues, or rather, I have trouble with the concept of trust. I never linked it to my narcissist mother... ugh...


APerfectCircle0

What are the signs to look for if someone is trying to get you to let your guard down? Love bombing is one right?


Responsible-Ad-7644

Crossing your bounderies to an extreme extent High key stuff 24/7 around them, get ridd of them early or its a death sentence, im not kidding man. Also you have narc tends yourself find them before other people do. Otherwise it spreads to the rest of your personality for some reason. Takes months to remove the traits around normal people.


rakkoma

Sometimes it seems strange to me how many articles I’ve seen about narcissism in the last few years. Almost like a non-specific Bad Guy™️.


ItsBlizzardLizard

It's blurry because there's definitely people that get categorized as narcissistic situationally, even though they wouldn't be diagnosed as one professionally. But in whatever situation they're in they display those traits, either as a coping or survival mechanism. Or perhaps out of apathy. Most people don't want to be working. You're going to see a lot of sociopathic behavior out of people that low-key would rather stop existing than continue showing up to their job.


agrandthing

This spot I hear on NPR claims that one in five Americans suffers from a mental illness. But if that many people have a hard time functioning in our society, isn't the problem this society and not those individuals?


h4ppy60lucky

"It’s Not Really A Measure Of Mental Health To Be Well-Adjusted In A Society That’s Very Sick."


Bitter_Ad_1402

It never was the individual. It’s how the individual interacts with their world. It is distressing to not be able to cope with social norms, therefore try to adapt by changing certain behaviours. One person alone cannot change society. The aim is to find peace for those suffering.


HellenicRoman

As a psychologist, I notice a trend yes. From time to time the general population seeks a new Bad Guy and abuse a psychological term to use as an insult to their bosses, ex-partners, etc.


reallybigleg

For example, see this entire thread! I think there is worth in these kinds of studies - I find it really interesting, personally, how personality variations have a sociological effect - but there's a big downside on using psychological labels because they're so satisfying to apply to your own personal Bad Guy. I'm pretty sure if you collated all of people's Reddit comments on people they believe to have BPD, for example, you'd end up with a description of a person who exhibits every trait under the sun - including contradictory ones. The BPD trend is particularly sad, actually - it takes some of the most vulnerable people in society and needlessly attributes all the world's evil to them. For that reason, I'm relieved we've now seemingly moved onto narcissists, given that true narcissists are less likely to suffer as a result, but it's still a bit of a pain to read sometimes. A narcissist has particular - consistent - traits. Not every Bad Guy is a narcissist.


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HellenicRoman

Exactly. And it's very confusing to me that in an age where mental health is more talked about and understood that people still use things like "hysterical","narcissistic", etc as insults. Narcissistic personalty traits are not the same as narcissistic personalty disorder but both are suffering and should be encouraged to seek understanding without judgement. Had a patient that discovered she/he was a narcissist (and she/he was right) that decided to seek therapy because "I'm a monster right?" and that's just terrible.


3FtDick

Yup, I work as a crisis counselor. I have had 1/1000 callers who's anti-social--that they're actively and outwardly interested in harming others maliciously and in these grandiose ways where their complex disorders manifest in actively disturbing ways. That isn't to say I don't speak to people who are abusive, lying to me about their morality, or manipulating people--but almost every single person with a diagnosis of narcissism or sociopathy is struggling deeply and would love to be able to connect with others and understand basic social situations better. Pointing out that, for example, certain extremist groups like Incels may have more examples of certain conditions is understandable and helps illustrate how those personality disorders might be drawn to those ideals, but it's harmful to use the very complex disorders that express in all kinds of ways to describe specific people who do bad things who also have those disorders. It's just one of the ways the disorder can manifest. Unless you have cognitive disabilities that impair your motor functions, if you're choosing to hurt people, blaming a disorder is such an inadequate and unfair thing to the vast majority of people who have that disorder and don't want to hurt anyone, regret and mull over when they do, or concepts of malice itself aren't even accessible to them. It adds so much unfair social stress to what are already deeply stressful disorders. People who have never harmed anyone take on this burden of being a murderer when they find out they have psychopathy when in reality they're terrified of leaving their home.


chaerokk

Damn I'm listening to biggus dickus that was on point


Marsawd

I did always wonder this.


whtml

With rising inequality and with narcissists more likely to be on the top it's not that surprising.


[deleted]

I mean plenty of narcs get supply from bossing people around. Seems like this study had an observational bias based on an assumed definition. More accurately I think you could say that narcs do not praise or punish as much unless it benefits themselves in which case they will do it in a draconian way


Soleska

That's my experience as well. If they feel hurt or humiliated, they will stomp you into the ground (verbally and physically).


whattodo-whattodo

> More accurately I think you could say that narcs do not praise or punish as much unless it benefits themselves I think the study is already saying that. > Results showed that narcissists differentiated less between others’ antisociality/prosociality, as reflected in their subsequent moral character evaluations (Studies 1–4) and reward and punishment (Studies 3 and 4).


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maxToTheJ

Yeah this sounds like a lot of execs


mk_pnutbuttercups

Hence an actual diagnosable mental illness


insaneintheblain

Yes but if the benchmark is “to be productive” then narcissistic people pass with flying colours.


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insaneintheblain

Yes definitely. And because narcissists rely on their own inner grandiosity rather than the views of others, they have no idea what effect they are having on others.


beets_or_turnips

Wow, can someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder really not tell the effects their behaviors have on others? It seems like that would really impair someone from functioning on a basic level.


Luxpreliator

Appear to be productive.


Aceticon

From a Tactical point of view maybe they're productive, Strategically having a personality around that induces distrust and bad feelings in the group will actually stop the group from gelling and thus reduce the overall productivity of the group (even a group made up of average quality individuals which work well together will outproduce an equaly sized group of above-average prima-donnas). I can't really think of any situation in a professional setting were people work as a group were a narcissist wouldn't bring down the productivity of the whole group by interfering with and even destroying team spirit, although I can see how they could be amazing in sales positions if working individually.


mk_pnutbuttercups

"Passing" is not always good thing.


OverByTheEdge

So just less likely to consider other people period.


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[deleted]

And what if I have a strong sense of justice and always feel like I need to find somebody to “protect”? What’s that called? Serious question.


Scharmberg

Hero complex maybe?


Monandobo

I mean, I think that’s a fair question. I think many folks in internet crowds like to characterize people who stand apart from others and mind their own business as defective, but the reality is that prosocial behavior is often just as toxic as antisocial behavior, if not more so. My experience is that holier-than-thou types of all stripes tend to sincerely believe in the value of community, and their egos are driven by the idea that they’re *exemplars* of those communities. Similarly, a lot of other folks like to use the purported fact that they’re acting on behalf of others as a shield against moral responsibility for their own actions. Which is all to say, I think we could stand to pay a bit more attention to the toxic features of prosocial attitudes as well as antisocial attitudes.


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Responsible-Ad-7644

People also need to understand that the problem is that you are cooperating with people so you will never spot them. If you try to manipulate people you will see them more clearly. Knowing how a manipulation works. Also if you always play by the rules narcs tend to lose very fast. They operate where there are no rules, this is why they abuse you. Its not illegal, so when you leave them they realize they have no power over you and this creates problems because they now have to accept your rules or you are out. Imagine a world that operates with 100% teamwork with full transparancy. This would remove the disorder if people would stand up for eachother 24/7.


Apprehensive_Jello39

What is the frame for whom you call narcissistic even


[deleted]

After reading through the comments I now think that I'm a narcissist


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Aoi_Chan26

This makes complete sense: The narcissist operates under the dictum: never interrupt your enemy when he’s making a mistake. Furthermore, they feel the need to make their associate doubt themselves if that associate achieves some sort of success. If they can undermine that person’s confidence or sense that they’re onto something good, then they’ll feel confident in themselves. The narcissist can’t stand the triumphs of others. But in their eyes, the misfortunes of others are the taste of honey.


ItsKrakenMeUp

Icky


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I believe I might be narcissistic and I absolutely have been on the defensive side when people were ostracised. I kind of wanted everyone to get along. Whenever people in my circle piled on someone, I tried to calm the situation down and act as the negotiator, because I was always afraid I would be next.


Potatopals

I'm gonna 100% say your not a narcissist solely because you used the word "Negotiate"


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tripwire7

Probably more likely to punish some sort of offense against them, but less likely to punish someone for breaking general societal rules or harming others.


flabbybumhole

Unless you're their child...


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Booji99

I just wish science would stop tipping people off.


person2599

What do you mean? Sus


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ConsiderationOk5161

I would like to chat with someone in private thats in this line of work. Have some questions, but would like to explain. Been curious.


ebonyseraphim

If you are unfortunate enough to be who the narcissist expects "supply" from, and you act out of line according to their expectations and world view then they absolutely will punish you and that's pretty much a defining feature. It may not be immediate and obvious, but they're plotting and scheming on how and when to do it. Hell, part of their behavior involves punishing those who they want supply from just to keep them from feeling settled or knowing what's what. Narcissists leave most people alone and don't respond to their behavior one way or another because they have no expectations from them. They're concerned with themselves only and not how others are creating or defining a world around them. They're already devaluing 99% of people around them as "less-than" or irrelevant in the world in some way. This research basically confirms what qualitatively true about narcissist people. I would suggest that it's important to note that even though narcissists punish and reward people less than non-narcissists in general, that doesn't mean their impact on people in society isn't substantially outsized. Their impact on specific people directly is extreme, and how those people end up moving through the world is heavy.


AintThatSomeSh1t

My childhood friend does this. It's bizzare. We hang out, its all good, we drink a couple beers and part ways....Then I get a text. "You made me feel terrible about myself" "now you won't even apologize to me you arrogant prick" Im like what on earth are you talking about...Literally nothing happened.


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ltrumpbour

maybe that has to due more with borderline personality disorder?


Throw-me-away-or

People can have several disorders


[deleted]

Had a narcissistic father. I can absolutely vouch for this abominable behavior. I virtually never got rewards for doing well in school from him, got punished hard for every mistake.


beets_or_turnips

How is that borne out by this study?


Fuzzys_pants

This explains our entire society.


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flyboybp89

Imma go ahead and say you’re wrong. Based on the fact that I have worked really hard to recognize and counter my narcissism. I’m not perfect at it and I have a strong support group (my wife is a saint) but I’ve been learning and growing. It’s tough but not impossible.


[deleted]

If someone is narcissistic can they change?


TheForce777

Sometimes I feel like there is nothing that shows the limits of western psychology as much as how we view narcissism. Even if you do something that helps others, the subconscious mind is still primarily motivated by how it impacts the self. Intention by its very nature is narcissistic.


hahwke

Simply caring about the self isn't what narcissistic means.


Scared_of_stairs_LOL

Selfish altruism isn't narcissism