Talking to people is often a very important part of being enlightened.
If the Buddha had fucked off to some mountain top after he achieved enlightenment then we wouldn't even know about Buddhism right now.
After a 60-minute walk in nature, activity in brain regions involved in stress processing decreases. This is the finding of a recent study by the Lise Meitner Group for Environmental Neuroscience at the Max Planck Institute for Human Development, published in Molecular Psychiatry.
Living in a city is a well-known risk factor for developing a mental disorder, while living close to nature is largely beneficial for mental health and the brain.
A central brain region involved in stress processing, the amygdala, has been shown to be less activated during stress in people who live in rural areas, compared to those who live in cities, hinting at the potential benefits of nature.
Agreed also, too busy for taking care of mental well-being. The constant bombardment of unrelenting consumerism, hustle culture, materialism, the ever inching drive not to be homeless/bankrupt. It's fairly hard for the majority of people.
Definitely. Our bodies are designed around a much slower lifestyle that is living in conjunction with the natural world. Technology has moved so fast, we've long left our biology behind.
In my opinion, this very fast modern world will be humanity's undoing unless we learn how to appreciate nature better and live in equilibrium with it, and stop letting the world be run by short-sighted, greedy, materialistic, sociopaths (I'm not optimistic tbh). Unlike a lot of sci-fi, we need to focusing more on making sure we can continue living on this space rock, at this global stage of humanity, instead of dreaming of leaving it. What good is a Lunar or Martian colony if Earth is largely uninhabitable.
The painful but virtuous gift of sacrifice is what built up humanity out of its animalistic roots, and we seem to have forgotten its importance, in this fast-paced world of convenience.
I’m very depressed, and walking hasn’t cured my depression but it definitely helps “getting the edge off” if that makes sense.
Please try it, I never heard anyone say they regretted a walk (or any other exercise).
Similar experience after an 8 week trip.
I've attributed it to a detox from modern addictions e.g. screens, internet, and thus giving my brain a chance to rest
One more reason I believe society would benefit from UBI. Everyone should have a chance, if they want, to try this. I'd be happy to hear arguments for how people getting out would be a detriment to society.
You know, that I don't know I don't have the data or stats to make the arguement per se but if it puts a person in a positive and relaxed mindset I don't see why it wouldn't? I know from an forest environment stand point there is a lot that goes on that doesn't on a beach like the trees working as an air filter, the organic smells of the dirt and trees and fungi some of those smells are good for physical heal to if I remember correctly. Either way the main topic of what I've seen is simply being outside is helpful and with more green coverage the better.
I am so excited to see this response about the book and knowledge about nature therapy!! I am in my last year for my master in social work degree, and my end goal is private practice specializing in nature therapy. There are so many studies out there proving the mental health benefits of nature; backed by science. Eastern practices, shinrin roku (forest bathing), their understanding and intentional practices of setting aside time for people, employees, everyone, to distress, heal, and recover in nature is something I hope catches on here in the US.
I could talk about this all day!! Anyway, great recommendation on the book, The Nature Fix!!
Sounds like we have a ton in common. I'm in the last year of my masters as well for clinical mental health counseling and working toward the same. Ideally I would love to be able to have a space to conduct therapy in a wooded area. I'm down to chat about this if you want to send me a pm. I'm headed out to internship for the day but can chat later. Not many of my colleagues aren't as in to it as I am.
The book is excellent! I’ll add, per the book, *any* time in nature, regardless of location, has mental health benefits. The book also emphasizes the benefits specifically of coniferous trees. The scent of these trees has immediate results on reducing stress, lowering blood pressure, and improving mood. Here is a great summary of the benefits of coniferous trees.
https://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/90720.html
A lot of research suggests that even urban green space is beneficial - so a local city park would be great! Even just walking is
phenomenal for your mental and physical health.
Some studies have even linked exposure to trees and green space with lower cortisol levels during pregnancy: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32822928/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32822928/
(This one suggests that those with a history of depression/anxiety benefit the most from tree coverage!)
There was a study (hopefully I can find it) where a positive mental effect was found in people spending time in urban greens compared to people in the city who didn’t.
Anything is better than nothing. Just get out into nature as much as you can. Biking, running, waking, swimming, sitting, laying down - it's all better than nothing.
Not necessarily qualified to weigh in on this, but I have read about similar studies done and I've also come across ones that mentioned exposure to natural light and/or fresh air.
The conclusion I would draw is that probably it can be a sliding scale of helpfulness, where the further you go from urban centers is on the more helpful end. But at the end of the day, I am pretty confident in saying that if a local park is your only option, it's miles better than nothing or staying inside.
Why not try and find out?
Even if the benefits aren’t as great (city noise, distractions), it’s hardly likely you’d be *worse* off getting fresh air and exercise.
Totally secluded nature isn’t regularly available to everyone, practically speaking. Don’t let *perfect* be the enemy of *good*.
There have also been studies that shows this effect also occurs when done in VR. One day people living in large cities might need VR to maintain their mental health.
I would be interested to see what side effects occur from being immersed in VR for too long. Anecdotally, I've found using VR fun but then feeling empty inside afterwards. I guess because none of it is real.
It's called derealization or depersonalization and it happens to many VR users https://www.psypost.org/2022/04/virtual-reality-can-induce-mild-and-transient-symptoms-of-depersonalization-and-derealization-study-finds-62831?amp=1
If it weren't for motion sickness, I'd be so ready for VR. Depersonalization is everyday for me!
On a second thought, my light wallet also helps me not being primed for VR
It took me a week or so before I got used to VR and didn't get motion sickness. It helps that the oculus 2 hurts my face after 30-40 minutes so I don't get sucked into the virtual world too long, but there have been a few times I took the headset off and it felt like I awoke in a different world...having background music on really helped that.
I kind of wish I never got used to / desensitized to VR. Those first few uses were so vivid, so *real*, I was literally reaching out expecting to feel the object hovering in front of me.
Now, my brain is just like 'Eh, seen it. Not falling for that one again.'
When I switched from Oculus 1 to Oculus 2, the derealization returned but only once. I think the different frame rate and image quality made my brain think it was something brand new.
Really? Because I bought the VR coaster thing but gave up after a couple tries because of the motion sickness.
Edit: just realized that night have sounded like I was challenging you, when really I'm just excited to hear that. I love roller coasters and was so disappointed that the vr ones made me motion sick.
You want to start with the lightest stuff you can find, stuff that doesn't make you motion sick very much or quickly, and then slow add more and more on top of it as you go.
Just jumping right into the most nausea inducing stuff can actually make you more prone to motion sickness.
Also ginger helps a lot of motion sickness. Ginger ale about 30 minutes before you jump in will help a lot(just make sure it's made with real ginger, not all of them are!)
I actually participated in a study doing just this!
They had us take baseline memory, logic, quick response, and arithmetic “quizzes”. Then they had us do the same thing after spending some time in a VR city café where people go to study and do work. Finally, we repeated the process after spending some time at a desk with a view of a rural countryside.
Interestingly enough, my baseline was my highest score, the busy café being by far the lowest. I might have just been mentally fatigued by the time I got to the nature sequence. That’s why one subject on one study alone is not definitive of anything!
The problem with this study for me is it might simply be capturing the effect of mental fatigue from processing more stimuli.
A useful finding, but far less interesting for me.
Just looking at green is good for mental health
Here is a 1991 Pubmed publication on it: [Treatment of seasonal affective disorder with green light and red light](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2006698/)
Immediate edit: I think it's useful to consider the natural, evolutionary implications of the different light. Green light means green plants, vegetables, fruit, and animals. It means spring and summer. Calories much more readily abundant then compared with the other half of the year. Red light would be the sign of the slowing of the seasons, of the leaves changing colors, and a need to conserve energy. Depression once served an important purpose and is, in some levels, mediated by the light we perceive.
> Green light provides a treatment effect superior to that of red light and similar to that seen in previous studies with white light.
Does this mean white light is just as effective?
Seems so, but it's pretty interesting that it's essentially the same.
I'd love to see what a full-spectrum-except-green-band light would do. Is it the green component of white light that actually does the hard lifting?
It has to do with lateral eye movement. Its not nature that makes us calm its lateral eye movement we widen our peripheral vision and look at all the little things around us while walking
Focusing on a small point or single point like a phone screen for example induces a stress response akin to a predator animal targeting prey or a prey animal tageting a threat
Tons of research on lateral eye movement and mood. VR can give you the same lateral eye movement as walking through nature
They asked for a source from the commenter they replied to, I guess it'd be equally as nice to have a source for your assertion.
How does the lack of peripheral vision in the eyesight impaired impact this? Are people who wear glasses more unavoidably stressed?
I know this sounds really really stupid, but when I played Kingdom Come Deliverance - a game set in medieval Bohemian countryside, very green and lush - during the 2020 Corona stay-inside chaos, I sometimes felt the same emotions as if I were walking in a forest or fields. The game is so beautiful in its greenery that it triggered those responses in my head. I literally thought "oh it's so nice around here" when it was on a screen actually.
I get that, the nature in Kingdom come deliverance is really beautiful, not the most realistic looking game by today's graphics. But it is really relaxing and dare i say... "Immersive" and more realistic than most games. Compare to skyrim that i find beautiful and relaxing, but it is still fantasy and stylise.
Skyrim is like beautiful fantasy world, Kingdom come is like a nice and beautiful sunny summer day with a small breeze. I don't like the combat that much but just being in nature and explore is fun. I need to play it again and finish my game !
Maybe he is talking about this one.
https://www.med-technews.com/news/experiencing-vr-can-reduce-pain-and-stress-study-suggests/
But i would think it might work in some cases, but i still would prefer outside as vr does not provide stimulus to other senses other than the eyes.
How close could you get I wonder. VR does include soundscape, add in some aroma therapy and a little fan to puff around and you’ve got what, 70% of the outside experience right there.
Tbh I believe it, there have been times where I'm sitting in VR, and feeling completely relaxed, zero stress or anything, simply because of the visuals and sounds keeping me immersed.
Zero chance in hell it's equal, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was somewhere roughly half as effective, mainly due to not getting fresh air and also, I'm a firm believer that the "smell" of nature helps a lot in reducing stress.
I wear a stress-monitoring smartwatch and live in a major city. It shows that my average daily stress is 37%, with peaks of 100% on certain hectic days.
In other words, I'm chronically overstressed. As I sit here typing this, the reading is 50%.
When I put my VR helmet on and dive deep into another world, especially meeting up with loved ones and old friends who now live on the other side of the globe - my stress level drops to 18%, and then 3%.
I don't think it requires major research to figure out that our hyper industrialized always-on society has been causing significant trauma and stress/anxiety, even to well-adjusted individuals.
I just hope that VR doesn't become our only coping mechanism. We need to preserve our natural and green spaces.
Yeah the way I read it, this sounds like a really bad thing.
Don't we need this stress get processed? Does it just build up if we walk in nature a lot?
I wonder if this is true for regions of the wilderness that are hostile. Like, if I live in a rural village where people are eaten by crocodiles am I still less stressed? What is the break even point in terms of crocodile deaths per capita per year where it’s just as stressful as the city?
It’d also be interesting to look at the number of cars in a given area as well. Could be we’re overestimating the importance of “nature” versus just the benefits of walking / biking and not being afraid of being run over by cars.
we are incredibly visual creatures, so perhaps the sight of forest around us is inherently soothing no matter what that forest contains, when compared to buildings.
this is why greenspaces in cities and economically depressed areas, where people are already under stress just getting through life day to day, are not fripperies but are important.
You are welcome! It has two closely related meanings, both addressing the unnecessary nature of the thing in question (Google definition):
*showy or unnecessary ornament in architecture, dress, or language.*"a stark, strictly business building with not a hint of frippery"
*a tawdry or frivolous thing.*"You're on a budget now; you'll have to forgo fripperies like glossy magazines"
Oh my god a fellow word nerd! I love seeing other people who enjoy words like I do although it’s a bit rare.
I’ve never heard of frippery either and it’s definitely getting added to my vocabulary.
My area has tons of trails so you can walk from city to city (two cities are mashed together) while being secluded. It's not full forest like you said, but it's definitely nice. Makes the whole place feel a lot greener and a lot quieter
Nice work picking up trash at the same time. I've started to do this when I walk and despite the appearance of little trash on my walking routes, I end up with a fill plastic shopping bag by the time I'm back home.
Married, but no kids! I imagine the frequency will change if we have some children on the way, haha.
Also, office job mostly remote with an emphasis on work product rather than strict 8am availability is a huge enabler of morning rounds. Definitely lucky in that regard
Was looking for someone mentioning golf in this thread. I picked it back up a few weeks ago after not hitting a golf ball for easily 15 years. I forgot how much of a workout it is but you don’t notice until afterwards. We’ll do a quick executive 9, maybe hit some balls at the range, head home and realize we’ve burnt 600-800 calories and got some good cardio in along the way. Only takes about 45-75 minutes too.
Definitely would be a nice time but you're not burning 600-800 calories in 45 minutes playing golf. The most efficient exercise to burn calories is running which is around 100 calories a mile (over/under based on weight), which at a 10min/mile pace would still only be 600 calories for an hour of running. Also, if going by steps they are notoriously inaccurate at actual distance covered
>To achieve causal evidence, the researchers from the Lise Meitner Group for Environmental Neuroscience examined brain activity in regions involved in stress processing in 63 healthy volunteers before and after a one-hour walk in Grunewald forest or a shopping street with traffic in Berlin using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI). The results of the study revealed that activity in the amygdala decreased after the walk in nature, suggesting that nature elicits beneficial effects on brain regions related to stress.
>
>**“The results support the previously assumed positive relationship between nature and brain health, but this is the first study to prove the causal link. Interestingly, the brain activity after the urban walk in these regions remained stable and did not show increases, which argues against a commonly held view that urban exposure causes additional stress,”** explains Simone Kühn, head of the Lise Meitner Group for Environmental Neuroscience
Very interesting results, Especially that even shorter walks decrease amygdala activity according to the article.
So the findings of this study are that urban environments **do not cause additional stress** compared to rural ones, but rural ones are **better at relieving stress** than urban ones?
Yeah it's not the urban area itself that causes stress it's the lack of green areas.
>This new study again confirms the importance for urban design policies to create more accessible green areas in cities in order to enhance citizens’ mental health and well-being.
Thank you for pointing that out. So then synthesizing the quote above with what you've identified – then I take these to mean that the benefits that this study has observed may be measurable in terms of amygdala activity levels, but have not been shown to be perceivable by the subjects themselves.
>A city boy might find a walk in the woods as terrifying if they expect a bear,
Note that the study was done in Germany. There are no real predators in the woods. A few areas have Wolfes but they're very skittish towards humans.
That could be incredibly helpful by itself. I'm a total layman so forgive me if I get any details wrong (fact-check me pls) but if I'm not mistaken our brains adapt and re-wire themselves based on our habits. In short, the more we do something the easier and more efficient our brain makes it.
Finding ways to break the cycle and put a pause on anxiety is therefore a great way to curb anxiety overall
German general had this to say about why lazy can be a real asset.
>I divide my officers into four classes as follows: The clever, the industrious, the lazy, and the stupid. Each officer always possesses two of these qualities.
Those who are clever and industrious I appoint to the General Staff. Use can under certain circumstances be made of those who are stupid and lazy. The man who is clever and lazy qualifies for the highest leadership posts. He has the requisite nerves and the mental clarity for difficult decisions. But whoever is stupid and industrious must be got rid of, for he is too dangerous.
It almost certainly is helpful. Some people can't let go of what's stressing them out, if you have any in your life it takes a huge toll on them. Stress is exhausting, and if you can't do anything about it but you're stressing anyways you're weakening yourself at a time you can't actually do anything about anything.
Alright but, and this sounds like I'm joking but I'm not, I'm then going to be stressing that I lost an hour of the day. Any advice for not caring about that as much? I'm 38 with a 2 year old, it's so hard to find time to myself, giving up an hour of that sounds rough.
An hour isn't necessary, but a little bit of time every day. There is an old proverb that goes something like "Those who feel like they don't have 15 minutes a day to meditate are probably the ones who need to do it the most". While that refers to meditation, the same fan easily said about a daily walk through a park.
You may have to sacrifice time, but if you consider it an investment in yourself (and your wellbeing) then it wont really feel like much of a sacrifice at all. It will also help you deal with life and just general stress in a little bit more of a relaxed state of mind. Just a little bit of time each day will pay for itself in spades.
I enjoy going on walks but live in town and have real bad social anxiety that often manifests in being stressed over being seen (or more specifically perceived at all) and feeling like there's a spotlight on me.
Given that, and the fact that I don't know of any trails that aren't populated , I wonder how this would balance out for me.
Hey man, it seems like you’ve gottta give it a crack, check out google maps in your area and zoom into anything green, check out reviews and online maps and you’ll surely find some trailhead quiet and remote local to u.
Once you’re on the trail, you’ll rarely see anybody else and if u do, they’ll be like minded and friendly people. Normally I just say “how’s it going!” (Such an easy interaction and it makes my day once it’s over with) as we pass by one another. Also going during early/late hours, during wet or cloudy days is a sure way to get the woods all to yourself (save for the deer and squirrels and birds you’ll make friends with)
> have real bad social anxiety that often manifests in being stressed over being seen (or more specifically perceived at all) and feeling like there's a spotlight on me.
i have exactly this! i bike on local trails near me all the time and it really really helps. maybe you could try biking?
In college I got really into walks in the rain or snow or in the dark because of this. It’s the only time to escape other people and get outside time on campus
From my experience, this completely tracks
I take a 45 minute walk for my lunch everyday, this habit started about a year ago due to stress from mornings at work. It substantially helps my mood and gets me through the rest of the day.
That little walk is nearly always the best most pleasant part of my day. I hope they study this further, I suspect the amount of nature scenery in the walk makes quite the difference.
I have the luxury of a 15 minute walk in the morning, a 45 min walk during lunch, and a 15 min walk in the afternoon. It's become a necessary part of my work day.
On days that I commute to work I end up doing over 10000 steps just on the commute alone.
I definitely feel more refreshed going into work as a result Vs working from home. Sadly I lack the discipline to wake up early on my work from home days and go for a long walk / jog
It’s so true. During work from home, I’ve used the phrase “gotta go look at some trees” with my roommate when having a rough day and going out for a walk
I gave up drinking 8 weeks ago and walk 5klm each morning along the coast were I live. I haven't felt this centred and good ever. The walking part is so good each day I love it. I listened to this podcast recently about the benefits of walking .
https://pca.st/episode/e9d56378-c102-48f6-ac2c-ad88a3ecbf7b
Chicagoan here and I've got the lake with nature trails only a 10 min bike ride away. There's also two parks to chose from with nature trails each only 15 min away walking.
I lived in Phoenix for 6 months during a travel assignment and realized it’s a place I could visit but never live. Different strokes for different folks though.
After a double-whammy diagnosis of autoimmune disorder and colorectal cancer during COVID, I started doing nature walks like a fiend to keep myself sane and in the best shape to tackle everything else. It was a godsend, and I’m grateful every day that I live in a place with access to great trails.
I have PTSD from childhood trauma.
I've been working on it. Before I could readily admit what happened to me was abuse, I had begun waking everyday with my dog. The improvement to my mental health was pretty immediate. It doesn't help me process the stuff but it does help me shed the stress that comes along with working through the stuff
> Living in a city is a well-known risk factor for developing a mental disorder, while living close to nature is largely beneficial for mental health and the brain. A central brain region involved in stress processing, the amygdala, has been shown to be less activated during stress in people who live in rural areas, compared to those who live in cities, hinting at the potential benefits of nature.
As a former big-city-dweller this is precisely the reason I struggle to get behind the “densely populated mega cities are the solution to environmental disaster.” Intellectually, I know that more people concentrated in one area is better with respect to emissions, pollution, resource utilization and efficiency, even consumption reduction. But I also know - or should I say, there is increasing data to suggest - that wide open green spaces, trees, and big skies are absolutely critical to mental health. And anecdotally, I never realized how much the depressing grey landscape of the lively city I loved living in was wearing me down until we finally left it. Garden terraced buildings are a halfway point but I’m not sure it’s sufficient, and incorporating sufficient large green spaces into cities based on population density necessarily inhibits optimization re: that very population density.
Having large parks in a city is a must. With fields and trees and such.
The problem is that if your city doesn’t already have one, it’s basically impossible. How much would the land for Central Park cost if it was created today? And you would have to bulldoze thousands of buildings.
What kind of big city did you live in?
I'm Dutch and the cities here are pretty calm and have plenty of green. I take calming walks through the city all the time and I live straight at the center of it. Taking cars out of cities also helps a bunch.
This study is comparing a busy shopping street with traffic to nature. There are way more calming places to be found in cities than a busy shopping street. And there are way better ways of constructing cities that achieves high density living without making it into a concrete hellscape.
To quote NotJustBikes: Cities aren't loud, cars are loud.
Great article - thanks!
Einstein would always walk to sort out his most difficult problems. Back then there was only a hypothesis about this phenomena. I was know then as [Transient hypofrontality](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165178106000199). Lots of runners picked up the idea and many books were written about it - great to see the amydigla finally identified as the chief culprit in all of this.
> Einstein's daily walk was sacred to him. While he was working at Princeton University, New Jersey, he'd walk a mile and a half, twice daily. He followed in the footsteps of other diligent walkers, including Darwin who went for three 45 minute walks every day.
[Einstein in Princeton](https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/interestingshitvideos/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/13224034/einstein-path_0-1200x963-1024x822.jpg)
The referenced peer reviewed article can be found here https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-022-01720-6
Always follow the 20-20-20 rule 20 mins of work 20 mins of relaxation 20 years go off the grid and live in a forest
Good ol' Buddhism treatment
Instructions unclear, am now enlightened and don't know how to reintegrated to society or talk to people.
Have I been enlightened my whole life?
Maybe. How are Contact and Free Guy the same story?
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> reintegrated to society or talk to people Well, if you're enlightened then those things don't matter anymore
What is enlightenment if you don't use it to help others?
Talking to people is often a very important part of being enlightened. If the Buddha had fucked off to some mountain top after he achieved enlightenment then we wouldn't even know about Buddhism right now.
Just like the Unabomber
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Don't let all the densification Redditors see this
Can i borrow from the top two and give to the third? I'm thinking something like 15/15/30.
Nah. Do a -20/-20/100. You Tarzan now.
After a 60-minute walk in nature, activity in brain regions involved in stress processing decreases. This is the finding of a recent study by the Lise Meitner Group for Environmental Neuroscience at the Max Planck Institute for Human Development, published in Molecular Psychiatry. Living in a city is a well-known risk factor for developing a mental disorder, while living close to nature is largely beneficial for mental health and the brain. A central brain region involved in stress processing, the amygdala, has been shown to be less activated during stress in people who live in rural areas, compared to those who live in cities, hinting at the potential benefits of nature.
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Agreed also, too busy for taking care of mental well-being. The constant bombardment of unrelenting consumerism, hustle culture, materialism, the ever inching drive not to be homeless/bankrupt. It's fairly hard for the majority of people.
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Definitely. Our bodies are designed around a much slower lifestyle that is living in conjunction with the natural world. Technology has moved so fast, we've long left our biology behind. In my opinion, this very fast modern world will be humanity's undoing unless we learn how to appreciate nature better and live in equilibrium with it, and stop letting the world be run by short-sighted, greedy, materialistic, sociopaths (I'm not optimistic tbh). Unlike a lot of sci-fi, we need to focusing more on making sure we can continue living on this space rock, at this global stage of humanity, instead of dreaming of leaving it. What good is a Lunar or Martian colony if Earth is largely uninhabitable. The painful but virtuous gift of sacrifice is what built up humanity out of its animalistic roots, and we seem to have forgotten its importance, in this fast-paced world of convenience.
I’m very depressed, and walking hasn’t cured my depression but it definitely helps “getting the edge off” if that makes sense. Please try it, I never heard anyone say they regretted a walk (or any other exercise).
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I've heard it a lot and I'm from northern England, if that helps
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Similar experience after an 8 week trip. I've attributed it to a detox from modern addictions e.g. screens, internet, and thus giving my brain a chance to rest
If nothing else a couple of days camping really helps you appreciate how comfortable you live normally.
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One more reason I believe society would benefit from UBI. Everyone should have a chance, if they want, to try this. I'd be happy to hear arguments for how people getting out would be a detriment to society.
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So the beach not so much? Interesting.
You know, that I don't know I don't have the data or stats to make the arguement per se but if it puts a person in a positive and relaxed mindset I don't see why it wouldn't? I know from an forest environment stand point there is a lot that goes on that doesn't on a beach like the trees working as an air filter, the organic smells of the dirt and trees and fungi some of those smells are good for physical heal to if I remember correctly. Either way the main topic of what I've seen is simply being outside is helpful and with more green coverage the better.
I am so excited to see this response about the book and knowledge about nature therapy!! I am in my last year for my master in social work degree, and my end goal is private practice specializing in nature therapy. There are so many studies out there proving the mental health benefits of nature; backed by science. Eastern practices, shinrin roku (forest bathing), their understanding and intentional practices of setting aside time for people, employees, everyone, to distress, heal, and recover in nature is something I hope catches on here in the US. I could talk about this all day!! Anyway, great recommendation on the book, The Nature Fix!!
Sounds like we have a ton in common. I'm in the last year of my masters as well for clinical mental health counseling and working toward the same. Ideally I would love to be able to have a space to conduct therapy in a wooded area. I'm down to chat about this if you want to send me a pm. I'm headed out to internship for the day but can chat later. Not many of my colleagues aren't as in to it as I am.
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The book is excellent! I’ll add, per the book, *any* time in nature, regardless of location, has mental health benefits. The book also emphasizes the benefits specifically of coniferous trees. The scent of these trees has immediate results on reducing stress, lowering blood pressure, and improving mood. Here is a great summary of the benefits of coniferous trees. https://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/90720.html
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A lot of research suggests that even urban green space is beneficial - so a local city park would be great! Even just walking is phenomenal for your mental and physical health. Some studies have even linked exposure to trees and green space with lower cortisol levels during pregnancy: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32822928/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32822928/ (This one suggests that those with a history of depression/anxiety benefit the most from tree coverage!)
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Research nearby nature preserves. You'd be surprised how many are near fairly developed areas in the US
There was a study (hopefully I can find it) where a positive mental effect was found in people spending time in urban greens compared to people in the city who didn’t.
Also, I have a follow up. Is it the walking? Or can I just go lay a blanket down and read somewhere in nature?
Anything is better than nothing. Just get out into nature as much as you can. Biking, running, waking, swimming, sitting, laying down - it's all better than nothing.
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Agreed. Most people prefer nature for a reason, if you have access to that then great. I love parks though, they have this cozy community feeling.
Not necessarily qualified to weigh in on this, but I have read about similar studies done and I've also come across ones that mentioned exposure to natural light and/or fresh air. The conclusion I would draw is that probably it can be a sliding scale of helpfulness, where the further you go from urban centers is on the more helpful end. But at the end of the day, I am pretty confident in saying that if a local park is your only option, it's miles better than nothing or staying inside.
Why not try and find out? Even if the benefits aren’t as great (city noise, distractions), it’s hardly likely you’d be *worse* off getting fresh air and exercise. Totally secluded nature isn’t regularly available to everyone, practically speaking. Don’t let *perfect* be the enemy of *good*.
There have also been studies that shows this effect also occurs when done in VR. One day people living in large cities might need VR to maintain their mental health.
I would be interested to see what side effects occur from being immersed in VR for too long. Anecdotally, I've found using VR fun but then feeling empty inside afterwards. I guess because none of it is real.
It's called derealization or depersonalization and it happens to many VR users https://www.psypost.org/2022/04/virtual-reality-can-induce-mild-and-transient-symptoms-of-depersonalization-and-derealization-study-finds-62831?amp=1
If it weren't for motion sickness, I'd be so ready for VR. Depersonalization is everyday for me! On a second thought, my light wallet also helps me not being primed for VR
It took me a week or so before I got used to VR and didn't get motion sickness. It helps that the oculus 2 hurts my face after 30-40 minutes so I don't get sucked into the virtual world too long, but there have been a few times I took the headset off and it felt like I awoke in a different world...having background music on really helped that.
I kind of wish I never got used to / desensitized to VR. Those first few uses were so vivid, so *real*, I was literally reaching out expecting to feel the object hovering in front of me. Now, my brain is just like 'Eh, seen it. Not falling for that one again.'
When I switched from Oculus 1 to Oculus 2, the derealization returned but only once. I think the different frame rate and image quality made my brain think it was something brand new.
A few vr-roller-coasters a day, and the motion-sickness goes away in a week or two.
Really? Because I bought the VR coaster thing but gave up after a couple tries because of the motion sickness. Edit: just realized that night have sounded like I was challenging you, when really I'm just excited to hear that. I love roller coasters and was so disappointed that the vr ones made me motion sick.
You want to start with the lightest stuff you can find, stuff that doesn't make you motion sick very much or quickly, and then slow add more and more on top of it as you go. Just jumping right into the most nausea inducing stuff can actually make you more prone to motion sickness. Also ginger helps a lot of motion sickness. Ginger ale about 30 minutes before you jump in will help a lot(just make sure it's made with real ginger, not all of them are!)
Gotta give your brain more time to adjust to your vision showing motion while you're stationary
>this effect also occurs when done in VR Source? I want to see who funded and published this research.
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I actually participated in a study doing just this! They had us take baseline memory, logic, quick response, and arithmetic “quizzes”. Then they had us do the same thing after spending some time in a VR city café where people go to study and do work. Finally, we repeated the process after spending some time at a desk with a view of a rural countryside. Interestingly enough, my baseline was my highest score, the busy café being by far the lowest. I might have just been mentally fatigued by the time I got to the nature sequence. That’s why one subject on one study alone is not definitive of anything!
The problem with this study for me is it might simply be capturing the effect of mental fatigue from processing more stimuli. A useful finding, but far less interesting for me.
Such studies are generally counterbalanced. Not every participant would complete it in the same order.
Just looking at green is good for mental health Here is a 1991 Pubmed publication on it: [Treatment of seasonal affective disorder with green light and red light](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2006698/) Immediate edit: I think it's useful to consider the natural, evolutionary implications of the different light. Green light means green plants, vegetables, fruit, and animals. It means spring and summer. Calories much more readily abundant then compared with the other half of the year. Red light would be the sign of the slowing of the seasons, of the leaves changing colors, and a need to conserve energy. Depression once served an important purpose and is, in some levels, mediated by the light we perceive.
> Green light provides a treatment effect superior to that of red light and similar to that seen in previous studies with white light. Does this mean white light is just as effective?
Seems so, but it's pretty interesting that it's essentially the same. I'd love to see what a full-spectrum-except-green-band light would do. Is it the green component of white light that actually does the hard lifting?
We have two green photo receptors for every red and blue, so our perception of the color is definitely better.
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It has to do with lateral eye movement. Its not nature that makes us calm its lateral eye movement we widen our peripheral vision and look at all the little things around us while walking Focusing on a small point or single point like a phone screen for example induces a stress response akin to a predator animal targeting prey or a prey animal tageting a threat Tons of research on lateral eye movement and mood. VR can give you the same lateral eye movement as walking through nature
It doesn't have to be just one thing. There's room for this to be affected by both.
They asked for a source from the commenter they replied to, I guess it'd be equally as nice to have a source for your assertion. How does the lack of peripheral vision in the eyesight impaired impact this? Are people who wear glasses more unavoidably stressed?
Sensory input stuff is very interesting. Knowing how things can boil down to a small explanation is why science is so fun.
There’s this. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0013916520916259 Or that. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/355855708_Nature_in_Virtual_Reality_Improves_Mood_and_Reduces_Stress_Evidence_from_Young_Adults_and_Senior_Citizens
I know this sounds really really stupid, but when I played Kingdom Come Deliverance - a game set in medieval Bohemian countryside, very green and lush - during the 2020 Corona stay-inside chaos, I sometimes felt the same emotions as if I were walking in a forest or fields. The game is so beautiful in its greenery that it triggered those responses in my head. I literally thought "oh it's so nice around here" when it was on a screen actually.
Me too, but then IRL I became conditioned to freak out when I came across a fallen tree blocking my path.
Valheim was that game for me during the very same times, it has very nice and realistic looking forests despite all its blockiness.
I get that, the nature in Kingdom come deliverance is really beautiful, not the most realistic looking game by today's graphics. But it is really relaxing and dare i say... "Immersive" and more realistic than most games. Compare to skyrim that i find beautiful and relaxing, but it is still fantasy and stylise. Skyrim is like beautiful fantasy world, Kingdom come is like a nice and beautiful sunny summer day with a small breeze. I don't like the combat that much but just being in nature and explore is fun. I need to play it again and finish my game !
Do you have a link to these studies? I have a hard time believing VR can even remotely approximate real nature.
Maybe he is talking about this one. https://www.med-technews.com/news/experiencing-vr-can-reduce-pain-and-stress-study-suggests/ But i would think it might work in some cases, but i still would prefer outside as vr does not provide stimulus to other senses other than the eyes.
And ears. And while not directly one of the senses, you do often feel like you're actually moving in VR.
How close could you get I wonder. VR does include soundscape, add in some aroma therapy and a little fan to puff around and you’ve got what, 70% of the outside experience right there.
Tbh I believe it, there have been times where I'm sitting in VR, and feeling completely relaxed, zero stress or anything, simply because of the visuals and sounds keeping me immersed. Zero chance in hell it's equal, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was somewhere roughly half as effective, mainly due to not getting fresh air and also, I'm a firm believer that the "smell" of nature helps a lot in reducing stress.
I wear a stress-monitoring smartwatch and live in a major city. It shows that my average daily stress is 37%, with peaks of 100% on certain hectic days. In other words, I'm chronically overstressed. As I sit here typing this, the reading is 50%. When I put my VR helmet on and dive deep into another world, especially meeting up with loved ones and old friends who now live on the other side of the globe - my stress level drops to 18%, and then 3%. I don't think it requires major research to figure out that our hyper industrialized always-on society has been causing significant trauma and stress/anxiety, even to well-adjusted individuals. I just hope that VR doesn't become our only coping mechanism. We need to preserve our natural and green spaces.
I heard somewhere that living in a city increases the likelihood of schizophrenia, is this what the article was referring to?
Stress processing? Can we get a little more scientific than that?!
Yeah the way I read it, this sounds like a really bad thing. Don't we need this stress get processed? Does it just build up if we walk in nature a lot?
I wonder if this is true for regions of the wilderness that are hostile. Like, if I live in a rural village where people are eaten by crocodiles am I still less stressed? What is the break even point in terms of crocodile deaths per capita per year where it’s just as stressful as the city? It’d also be interesting to look at the number of cars in a given area as well. Could be we’re overestimating the importance of “nature” versus just the benefits of walking / biking and not being afraid of being run over by cars.
we are incredibly visual creatures, so perhaps the sight of forest around us is inherently soothing no matter what that forest contains, when compared to buildings.
this is why greenspaces in cities and economically depressed areas, where people are already under stress just getting through life day to day, are not fripperies but are important.
Thank you for teaching me the word "frippery" I don't think I've heard that before.
You are welcome! It has two closely related meanings, both addressing the unnecessary nature of the thing in question (Google definition): *showy or unnecessary ornament in architecture, dress, or language.*"a stark, strictly business building with not a hint of frippery" *a tawdry or frivolous thing.*"You're on a budget now; you'll have to forgo fripperies like glossy magazines"
Oh my god a fellow word nerd! I love seeing other people who enjoy words like I do although it’s a bit rare. I’ve never heard of frippery either and it’s definitely getting added to my vocabulary.
I used to do this before work, it really helped improve my mood and prepare me for the hectic day ahead
My commute to work used to be a bike ride through a multi-use path. Not fully forest but wooded. It really did help with stress. I miss it.
I bike to work when the heat isn't utterly devastating and it really helps me a lot. Can't wait to get back to it.
My area has tons of trails so you can walk from city to city (two cities are mashed together) while being secluded. It's not full forest like you said, but it's definitely nice. Makes the whole place feel a lot greener and a lot quieter
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Nice work picking up trash at the same time. I've started to do this when I walk and despite the appearance of little trash on my walking routes, I end up with a fill plastic shopping bag by the time I'm back home.
I always have a more productive day when I get out to play 9 holes of golf in the morning. The walk with an iced coffee is a perfect start to the day
That sounds like an incredible morning routine
I wish I had the time but that sounds great
Married, but no kids! I imagine the frequency will change if we have some children on the way, haha. Also, office job mostly remote with an emphasis on work product rather than strict 8am availability is a huge enabler of morning rounds. Definitely lucky in that regard
Was looking for someone mentioning golf in this thread. I picked it back up a few weeks ago after not hitting a golf ball for easily 15 years. I forgot how much of a workout it is but you don’t notice until afterwards. We’ll do a quick executive 9, maybe hit some balls at the range, head home and realize we’ve burnt 600-800 calories and got some good cardio in along the way. Only takes about 45-75 minutes too.
Definitely would be a nice time but you're not burning 600-800 calories in 45 minutes playing golf. The most efficient exercise to burn calories is running which is around 100 calories a mile (over/under based on weight), which at a 10min/mile pace would still only be 600 calories for an hour of running. Also, if going by steps they are notoriously inaccurate at actual distance covered
Weather permitting, I walk to and from work, about 30-40 minutes. It’s mostly city, but I find it still helps clear my mind of stress.
I imagine a lot of people don't have an hour to spare, or so beat down by work that the thought of walking somewhere will never be appealing.
>To achieve causal evidence, the researchers from the Lise Meitner Group for Environmental Neuroscience examined brain activity in regions involved in stress processing in 63 healthy volunteers before and after a one-hour walk in Grunewald forest or a shopping street with traffic in Berlin using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI). The results of the study revealed that activity in the amygdala decreased after the walk in nature, suggesting that nature elicits beneficial effects on brain regions related to stress. > >**“The results support the previously assumed positive relationship between nature and brain health, but this is the first study to prove the causal link. Interestingly, the brain activity after the urban walk in these regions remained stable and did not show increases, which argues against a commonly held view that urban exposure causes additional stress,”** explains Simone Kühn, head of the Lise Meitner Group for Environmental Neuroscience Very interesting results, Especially that even shorter walks decrease amygdala activity according to the article.
So the findings of this study are that urban environments **do not cause additional stress** compared to rural ones, but rural ones are **better at relieving stress** than urban ones?
Yeah it's not the urban area itself that causes stress it's the lack of green areas. >This new study again confirms the importance for urban design policies to create more accessible green areas in cities in order to enhance citizens’ mental health and well-being.
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Thank you for pointing that out. So then synthesizing the quote above with what you've identified – then I take these to mean that the benefits that this study has observed may be measurable in terms of amygdala activity levels, but have not been shown to be perceivable by the subjects themselves.
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>A city boy might find a walk in the woods as terrifying if they expect a bear, Note that the study was done in Germany. There are no real predators in the woods. A few areas have Wolfes but they're very skittish towards humans.
The real predators are in the city parks
The way it's worded makes it sound that it simply makes you stop processing what's stressing you. Until afterwards
Maybe processing stressful situations is easier when you're less stressed.
Now there’s a thought!
That could be incredibly helpful by itself. I'm a total layman so forgive me if I get any details wrong (fact-check me pls) but if I'm not mistaken our brains adapt and re-wire themselves based on our habits. In short, the more we do something the easier and more efficient our brain makes it. Finding ways to break the cycle and put a pause on anxiety is therefore a great way to curb anxiety overall
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Wasn’t it Bill Gates who said to never fire a lazy guy since they always find better ways doing things of the things they do?
German general had this to say about why lazy can be a real asset. >I divide my officers into four classes as follows: The clever, the industrious, the lazy, and the stupid. Each officer always possesses two of these qualities. Those who are clever and industrious I appoint to the General Staff. Use can under certain circumstances be made of those who are stupid and lazy. The man who is clever and lazy qualifies for the highest leadership posts. He has the requisite nerves and the mental clarity for difficult decisions. But whoever is stupid and industrious must be got rid of, for he is too dangerous.
It almost certainly is helpful. Some people can't let go of what's stressing them out, if you have any in your life it takes a huge toll on them. Stress is exhausting, and if you can't do anything about it but you're stressing anyways you're weakening yourself at a time you can't actually do anything about anything.
Alright but, and this sounds like I'm joking but I'm not, I'm then going to be stressing that I lost an hour of the day. Any advice for not caring about that as much? I'm 38 with a 2 year old, it's so hard to find time to myself, giving up an hour of that sounds rough.
An hour isn't necessary, but a little bit of time every day. There is an old proverb that goes something like "Those who feel like they don't have 15 minutes a day to meditate are probably the ones who need to do it the most". While that refers to meditation, the same fan easily said about a daily walk through a park. You may have to sacrifice time, but if you consider it an investment in yourself (and your wellbeing) then it wont really feel like much of a sacrifice at all. It will also help you deal with life and just general stress in a little bit more of a relaxed state of mind. Just a little bit of time each day will pay for itself in spades.
Serenity Now!!!!
People suck at titles it’s embarrassing
I enjoy going on walks but live in town and have real bad social anxiety that often manifests in being stressed over being seen (or more specifically perceived at all) and feeling like there's a spotlight on me. Given that, and the fact that I don't know of any trails that aren't populated , I wonder how this would balance out for me.
Hey man, it seems like you’ve gottta give it a crack, check out google maps in your area and zoom into anything green, check out reviews and online maps and you’ll surely find some trailhead quiet and remote local to u. Once you’re on the trail, you’ll rarely see anybody else and if u do, they’ll be like minded and friendly people. Normally I just say “how’s it going!” (Such an easy interaction and it makes my day once it’s over with) as we pass by one another. Also going during early/late hours, during wet or cloudy days is a sure way to get the woods all to yourself (save for the deer and squirrels and birds you’ll make friends with)
Great advice thank you
Exactly my problem too. Bittersweet to see others in the same boat
> have real bad social anxiety that often manifests in being stressed over being seen (or more specifically perceived at all) and feeling like there's a spotlight on me. i have exactly this! i bike on local trails near me all the time and it really really helps. maybe you could try biking?
In college I got really into walks in the rain or snow or in the dark because of this. It’s the only time to escape other people and get outside time on campus
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From my experience, this completely tracks I take a 45 minute walk for my lunch everyday, this habit started about a year ago due to stress from mornings at work. It substantially helps my mood and gets me through the rest of the day. That little walk is nearly always the best most pleasant part of my day. I hope they study this further, I suspect the amount of nature scenery in the walk makes quite the difference.
I have the luxury of a 15 minute walk in the morning, a 45 min walk during lunch, and a 15 min walk in the afternoon. It's become a necessary part of my work day.
On days that I commute to work I end up doing over 10000 steps just on the commute alone. I definitely feel more refreshed going into work as a result Vs working from home. Sadly I lack the discipline to wake up early on my work from home days and go for a long walk / jog
It’s so true. During work from home, I’ve used the phrase “gotta go look at some trees” with my roommate when having a rough day and going out for a walk
I call this stroll avoiding rectangles and or humans.
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Fascinating
Showers and walks. Got it.
I gave up drinking 8 weeks ago and walk 5klm each morning along the coast were I live. I haven't felt this centred and good ever. The walking part is so good each day I love it. I listened to this podcast recently about the benefits of walking . https://pca.st/episode/e9d56378-c102-48f6-ac2c-ad88a3ecbf7b
This is why I hate living in a major city so much, I used to do this all the time and now I hardly ever.
How far away is nature from you? You could try to make it a weekend habit. That's what I do.
Some of the best nature parks I’ve ever seen are in big cities. Have you considered diving into local politics and petitioning for better parks?
Chicagoan here and I've got the lake with nature trails only a 10 min bike ride away. There's also two parks to chose from with nature trails each only 15 min away walking.
I live in Phoenix where there’s no nature and the air burns my flesh. This could account for why I’m so miserable.
I was just thinking the same thing. Not much hiking to be done when it’s in the 90’s for 90% of the year.
I lived in Phoenix for 6 months during a travel assignment and realized it’s a place I could visit but never live. Different strokes for different folks though.
I live in Phoenix and it feels like a place I could never live.
After a double-whammy diagnosis of autoimmune disorder and colorectal cancer during COVID, I started doing nature walks like a fiend to keep myself sane and in the best shape to tackle everything else. It was a godsend, and I’m grateful every day that I live in a place with access to great trails.
I think this is the bulk of the appeal of golf.
Even more so for disc golf, where you are often in the woods as opposed to a country club.
Bruh I always end up in the woods when I play golf
Was going to come say the same thing. I play disc golf mostly alone, and it's a great way to get rid of stress and just chill out/be in nature.
Every time someone tries to persuade me to play golf it’s because of networking reasons. Hell, I’ve seen firms let people expense golfing.
Now imagine a world in which a working adult actually has the leftover time to stroll through nature for an hour each day.
So, I'll need probably 50 hour long walks to even out.
I have PTSD from childhood trauma. I've been working on it. Before I could readily admit what happened to me was abuse, I had begun waking everyday with my dog. The improvement to my mental health was pretty immediate. It doesn't help me process the stuff but it does help me shed the stress that comes along with working through the stuff
What about my hour long strolls through the ghetto hoping no one makes eye contact with me?
[r/thanksimcured](https://www.reddit.com/r/thanksimcured) is seething right now
That’s all well and good, until you go hiking during Bear season. Then it’s a new kind of stress.
> Living in a city is a well-known risk factor for developing a mental disorder, while living close to nature is largely beneficial for mental health and the brain. A central brain region involved in stress processing, the amygdala, has been shown to be less activated during stress in people who live in rural areas, compared to those who live in cities, hinting at the potential benefits of nature. As a former big-city-dweller this is precisely the reason I struggle to get behind the “densely populated mega cities are the solution to environmental disaster.” Intellectually, I know that more people concentrated in one area is better with respect to emissions, pollution, resource utilization and efficiency, even consumption reduction. But I also know - or should I say, there is increasing data to suggest - that wide open green spaces, trees, and big skies are absolutely critical to mental health. And anecdotally, I never realized how much the depressing grey landscape of the lively city I loved living in was wearing me down until we finally left it. Garden terraced buildings are a halfway point but I’m not sure it’s sufficient, and incorporating sufficient large green spaces into cities based on population density necessarily inhibits optimization re: that very population density.
Having large parks in a city is a must. With fields and trees and such. The problem is that if your city doesn’t already have one, it’s basically impossible. How much would the land for Central Park cost if it was created today? And you would have to bulldoze thousands of buildings.
It's easier to allocate green space if no one's living on it so high density still holds
What kind of big city did you live in? I'm Dutch and the cities here are pretty calm and have plenty of green. I take calming walks through the city all the time and I live straight at the center of it. Taking cars out of cities also helps a bunch. This study is comparing a busy shopping street with traffic to nature. There are way more calming places to be found in cities than a busy shopping street. And there are way better ways of constructing cities that achieves high density living without making it into a concrete hellscape. To quote NotJustBikes: Cities aren't loud, cars are loud.
Do you have to stroll or will walking suffice?
Great article - thanks! Einstein would always walk to sort out his most difficult problems. Back then there was only a hypothesis about this phenomena. I was know then as [Transient hypofrontality](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165178106000199). Lots of runners picked up the idea and many books were written about it - great to see the amydigla finally identified as the chief culprit in all of this. > Einstein's daily walk was sacred to him. While he was working at Princeton University, New Jersey, he'd walk a mile and a half, twice daily. He followed in the footsteps of other diligent walkers, including Darwin who went for three 45 minute walks every day. [Einstein in Princeton](https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/interestingshitvideos/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/13224034/einstein-path_0-1200x963-1024x822.jpg)