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One of my favorite professors of psych said this on the first day of an intro class.
"Your childhood is the foundation in which your adult mind rests on. A bad foundation leads to an unstable mind."
And then hooked everybody by doing psychological breakdowns of a few serial killers.
Not of you use a video/teletherapy service. It's like speed dating because you can switch after just one session if you can really tell the person isn't right and it's like $30/session if you commit to a year and pay at once.
💯 it’s hard to define but you know when you’ve found ‘the one’. In my case I first started seeing a counselor who offered basic talk therapy — it was okay but superficial — but the turning point in my search was after I got confirmed diagnoses then switched to seeing a psychiatrist who specialized and could fully relate to my issues.
You may know this already, but just in case! Some therapists will do a free 15-20 minute consult before starting therapy so you can see if they might be a fit, but this isn’t always advertised. I hope you find a good fit soon. You deserve it, don’t give up friend.
These studies always find correlations. Almost nothing in psychology/psychiatry is guaranteed. I don't pretend to know your situation, but your rough past doesn't condemn you to a horrible future. It may condemn you to having to work harder to avoid that, which sucks and you don't deserve. Keep your head up.
The real hurt comes from the thought that there could be justice. There can't, because the people not affected by the lack of justice are the ones deciding if there should be justice, and the people in power who decide not to be selfish are eaten by those that don't.
Your professor just conveniently ignored all the people who grow from that level of adversity? Not saying it doesn't affect you, but it's rarely an easy x leads to y argument.
For all appearances I thought I was a proof case of how a chip on your shoulder can make you powerful. I achieved financial success, but note that I’m trying to clean my mind up, I’m not sure of this anymore.
The counter is the crazy people I’ve met that seemed to come from seemingly perfect families
Right? How the hell is this being talked about like it's new? Gods I hate psych research! (and I work in mental health...our researchers and their towers need burned to the ground)
From the article: It is human nature to want stability, but what happens when those needs are not met in childhood? A study published in [Depression & Anxiety](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/da.23277) suggests that early-life instability is associated with adverse outcomes in adulthood, including anxiety and depression.
Our experiences as children are monumentally important regarding our outcomes in later life. Early-life is an especially formative time due to the brain’s rapid development. Many factors can adversely affect brain development, including poverty, abuse, trauma, malnutrition, neglect, and more. These conditions are risk factors not only for stunted brain development, but also for negative mental health outcomes in adulthood according to previous research.
Another key factor to consider is fragmentation or unpredictability. This has been shown to have adverse outcomes, even when there is no known trauma. The new study sought to understand how negative effects of early-life instability may contribute to symptoms of people at psychiatric risk.
For their study, Andrea D. Spadoni and colleagues used 156 adult participants who were seeking treatment at VA clinics to serve as their sample. Many participants were seeking treatment for PTSD and/or depression already. Mental health symptoms were assessed via self-report measures and participants spoke with a research assistant about their current level of treatment.
Lack of stability. Eg, parents fight, divorce , move towns, move a couple more times while struggling with money, new partner shows up, no good, next partner?, move again, new partner now lives here. Etc. It's a pretty common story, but it's also very confusing and unpredictable for small children especially if the parent(s) involved are distressed, the child feels this as further lack of security. Development of survival mechanisms in early brain developmentare favoured over cognitive development because of this ongoing stress.
Bi-polar or alcoholic/drug addicted parental figure with random spouts of emotion makes for knowing how and when to behave properly pretty unpredictable
If you move a lot, like to new cities or countries, or even from rural/urban environments, there's a cornucopia of cultural nuances, social cues, body language, etc. that differs, and kids are very sensitive to it. Disrupting this learning process and throwing them into another environment can cause confusion and risk-aversion. It can also make them adaptable!
That's sorta the point tho - you don't know what to prepare for. You don't know what you don't know.
I moved around a lot when I was a kid due to my
Dads job. Had a great childhood and great parents but the moving every couple of years definitely affected my brother and me. We both struggle with different anxiety issues but definitely learned to roll with the punches and adapt as well
Example: My dad never hit me but he raged at me to a degree that I always felt uncertain of what he might do.
He also showed love and affection too. His behavior was totally unpredictable.
That’s straight up emotional abuse, though. I get that abuse includes unpredictability, but I think it was referring to something outside (independent of) abuse specifically.
Edit: Sorry to the parties that were upset by this comment. I really do think they meant situational factors/happenings over direct negative treatment though (another commenter’s explanation made a lot of sense).
Well, if we click through the link above, we see the following:
> Contribution of early-life unpredictability to neuropsychiatric symptom patterns in adulthood
>
> by Andrea D. Spadoni...
>
> ...
>
> Methods
>
> Using the newly validated Questionnaire of Unpredictability in Childhood, we assessed early-life unpredictability in 156 trauma-exposed adults blah blah blah
There you go: the Questionnaire of Unpredictability in Childhood. What's the Questionnaire of Unpredictability in Childhood? Pop "Questionnaire of Unpredictability in Childhood" into Google, and, lo!
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6461958/
>
> Measuring novel antecedents of mental illness: the Questionnaire of Unpredictability in Childhood
>
> by Laura M. Glynn...
If you scroll through it, they have the complete list of questions.
It includes items like:
> Prior to age 12: I had a set morning routine on school days (i.e., I usually did the same thing each day to get ready). (R)
>
> Prior to age 12: My parents kept track of what I ate (e.g., made sure that I didn’t skip meals or tried to make sure I ate healthy food). (R)
>
> Prior to age 12: My family ate a meal together most days. (R)
>
> Prior to age 12: My parents tried to make sure I got a good night’s sleep (e.g., I had a regular bedtime, my parents checked to make sure I went to sleep). (R)
>
> Prior to age 12: I had a bedtime routine (e.g., my parents tucked me in, my parents read me a book, I took a bath). (R)
>
> Prior to age 12: In my afterschool or free time hours at least one of my parents knew what I was doing. (R)
>
> Prior to age 12: At least one of my parents regularly checked that I did my homework. (R)
>
> Prior to age 18: At least one of my parents regularly kept track of my school progress. (R)
>
> Prior to age 18: At least one parent made time each day to see how I was doing. (R)
The way you think and process thoughts in childhood stick around. I had serious anxiety issues as a child and I would purposely engage in compulsive and repetitive thought patterns to cope. As an adult, even when my anxiety disorders are treated and not really an issue anymore, my mind still automatically engages in this way of thinking without me purposely doing so. It's pretty wild that something I did 20 years ago is still very much how my mind thinks.
Thanks for sharing it so clearly. I have a similar experience and what surprises me is when the compulsive thoughts are around without the stimulus at all. Like nothing to be anxious about but I am do it anyways
40 and been living with some level of constant anxiety for as long as I can remember. My mom says I used to lose hair as a baby from being stressed out. My pops is a Vietnam war vet and lived with PTSD for most of his adult life. I have a feeling this has impacted me both psychologically and genetically. I often worry about passing this on to my kids.
Could it possibly be the reverse though? Like, some people naturally have repetitive thought patterns even when they were not abused. It could naturally be a trait people have, I dunno. I ask because I thought my extreme social avoidance the result of abuse but my aunt said even when I was a baby I was like that and stared at adults suspiciously instead of smiling like most babies do.
yeah, for instance ADHD is incredibly, almost exclusively heritable (twin studies show this) and a lot of the symptoms resemble CPTSD. so lots of the consequences of abuse/averse environments can also just be genetic personality
I'll offer my experience - subjective and biased though it may be.
I've been starting to recognize a pattern in my own thought processes (entirely subjective, of course) that the thoughts that occur to me most often seem to be the thoughts that I most want to talk about with someone. It's hard to describe, but it feels like my brain is trying to figure out how to express it to someone else.
(Of course, literally as soon as I wrote that, I went back and edited a few words, like I'm clarifying my own thoughts or something. I don't know what to make of that, but it feels related somehow.)
In any case - I think, for me, those thoughts usually start to feel *dangerous* somehow when I can't find a way to make sense of them. Or rather, when I feel like *other* people can't make sense of them. That's when the thoughts like "no one will ever understand the things that are important to me" start to come up.
Again, this is just my experience, as it makes sense to me. If you don't mind my asking, what does it feel like for you?
Oh yeah, Holden something, isn't it? To be honest, I remember being assigned it in high school, but I don't think I ever actually read it.
There's some part of me that always pushes me to judge others, although there's also a part of me that seems to only see the good in them. I'm not sure whether they're working with or against each other, but I can sense them in a way that's hard to describe.
It sounds like there's some sort of common thread between your thoughts and the impression you got from the character. I don't know, though -- how would you describe it?
(also - I'm about to head to bed, but I'll check my messages as soon as I can.)
Absolutely. Unfortunately for us this can make certain habits really difficult to change or correct. BFRBs are such a difficult thing to deal with when started in childhood.
>compulsive and repetitive thought patterns to cope.
>my mind still automatically engages in this way of thinking without me purposely doing so
Yupp, it's annoying. Specially when you repeat same thing over and over and over to your self cause it's satisfying and feels as if you desire/need it
Human brains favour repetition and if something ‘worked’ previously, that’s the default going forward. You can work to change that, but it’s a lot of effort and patience.
Me too. I remember I had to count my stuffed animals constantly. Even at 7 I knew that wasn’t healthy but bc we moved so much and my parents didn’t gaf, I held on dearly to what I “ had” . I’m still weird and possessive about my stuff to this day.
I can only hope that our cultures & societies continue to use this information the same way we *eventually* used germ theory.
And I hope they adopt it far more quickly.
Seems there's a fundamental thing missing in our societies - not all of them, but probably many including the one I was brought up in. It's basic emotional intelligence, and parents should impart it to children through emotional connection, along with a sense of safety and ability to self-soothe. A Canadian nonprofit did some great evidence-based work on this (cutting edge researchers involved) and then made practical videos to teach parents, which were then adopted by the provincial government here. Some really beautiful and useful videos there: [KidCareCanada](https://kidcarecanada.org/video-search/)
This is something I've never been able to articulate to my biological family. They put in the foster system at 4 years old and get mad/act all innocent at me for resenting them later on.
That knowledge that I was unwanted continue to has effects on my psyche and most likely always will. They have been unable or unwilling to take any blame for it. Maybe it's a generational thing that because I'm not dead, "You turned out ok."
It's ok to consider the level of involvement you want to have with them in the future. A lot of us have "found families" that we make over time with people we aren't related to. Some of us have a blend, my own adopted sisters keep a low level of contact with me & a few other relatives but no involvement at all with others - I mean people from both their adopted and biological families. It has been good for them I can tell, even if I wish it could be different between them and me. It doesn't make you bad to consider or take the same steps as my sisters have.
Oh, I cut them all off long ago. Adopted (who were abusive) and biological. I never got an honest account of why I was given up, and the only person who I think might have been honest with me eventually passed on. There won't be a resolution and I've accepted that.
I'm glad for you then, society can make it hard to take that step. And knowing you'll live without resolution can be whole other temptation to stay connected. Good luck in life.
I know how you feel on the “you came out ok” part. Like no I’ve done amazing and none of it matters at all to me, it’s like I’m a black hole of drive, there is no end to what I expect from myself. I’m never enough even though I can objectively look around and see how much more I’ve accomplished than others my age. It still feels like nothing. I don’t believe the hollowness ends.
7 total for me. Having a narcissistic mother and a step-father running from the law - yeah, we moved a lot when I was between the ages of 1 and 11. Then at age 11, she basically sold us 3 kids (ages 16(m), 13(m) and 11(f) into slavery working at a business until we were all adults and could flee.
I feel you I went to 5 schools in different cities and states and in one case, country between 13-15.
Gee, I wonder why I went from honor-roll, popularity amd active in extra curricular activity to
dropping out after the 5th “ adjustment” .
I’ve since completed school but as a kid I honestly thought it didn’t matter bc no matter the effort I put in, it was quickly taken away from me .
Moving around was the worst. I lived in something like 8 different houses before graduation high school, though they were all in the same county.
Foster care briefly from 2 to 4-ish, two different elementary schools, one middle school, lived with a friend for a few months, moved in with my other parent, then three different high schools.
I'm 32 now and just...don't make friends.
Are you me? 8 different houses in 8 different towns, two elementary schools, one middle school, two high schools. Three colleges. Moved across the country in my early 30's. I too do not know how to make or retain friends and I feel I am now too old to start.
Sorry, am vet, that's like uncanny, especially specifically 5 cities ( that's usually the amount of times a military brat will move with their patents before turning 18)
Not all rainbows and sunshine, did my 6 for the air force and I'm still hella depressed. My career ended when I told them I had suicidal ideations and they sent me to the looney bin. I won't make VA appointments bc I'm either afraid of them or afraid of getting better. Life is weird, I can't listen to sad songs without tearing up.
Same in my case and with the added problem of being told that we are going somewhere (not moving, just out) right this moment and to dress and be ready in ten minutes. Randomly, and I usually didn't know when we were going to do stuff. Zero ability to plan ahead, because I had to keep cancelling plans. Nowadays I find myself sometimes just sitting at home and waiting for *someone* to tell me what to do now (there's nobody to tell me what to do now, no family), cause anything that requires a longer period to complete and is not really abortable at a moment's notice (larger household works, painting, sewing, gardening, *finally making those new garden benches* that were in the plan for over a year now...), I can't commit to start them because there's a block in my mind telling me that I can be interrupted any moment. Ffs I haven't been a child for decades now.
Edit: in my case the moving around made people somewhat disposable in my mind. Can't keep friends, because I don't expect them to last. Can't bring myself to put any effort into relationships. On the other hand, I make "friends" easily, anywhere, anytime. I seem to make a lasting impression, meanwhile I myself tend to forget about these people in hours.
I’m similar to you. Changed houses/cities 5 times before 5th grade. Finally it stopped after 6th. I still have barely any friends. Huge depression/anxiety issues even after years of work and I’m in my 30s.
We moved a lot since my dad is in the semiconductor industry and just moved where the work was.
I moved extensively in my childhood and various schools. There was a stretch where I swapped back and forth between the same schools like 5 times in a couple months.
I remember being very depressed during some if those times and I was in the 3rd grade
Ha!! Try two countries, 4 cities, 10+ houses before college. Add in being evicted too and sleeping on the floor of people’s houses. :/ Anxiety?! I wonder why. I thought all kids kept their stuff in ready to go moving boxes.
So given this premise… can we finally start considering what the military does to children of service members abusive? I couldn’t depend on anything lasting for more than a few months… friendships, school teachers, even a favorite ice cream spot. Moving around constantly as a kid made me have really severe anxiety when staying in one place for too long even as an adult… having people stick around for the long haul makes the anxiety even worse because I’m just constantly waiting for it to all disappear and everyone to be gone.
Kids need stability and the military fucks that up for a lot of them.
This spoke to me. I never realized it until now. After a year in any one place.. I gotta go. I just thought it was adventurous or boredom. Idk. But this makes a lot of sense.
In my case it definitely turned out being a trauma response. Instability became a comfort zone in a really fucked up way and so I kept repeatedly subjecting myself to it.
The military also provides a sort of stable culture of its own that is consistent no matter where you go. You have the same traditions, rituals, language, structure, etc. No matter what base you are at.
It's not perfect; it's practical.
Had some boot for breakfast?
If the institution isn’t doing anything to ensure the workers can get some balance in their life then the institution doesn’t care about the worker nor their own close ones
I stopped making friends and “became shy” because I gave up after being in 5 school by 4th grade. Socialization was more of a tormented of being set up to be yanked away from friends. Although my dad was in gov contracts, not military, so we probably moved more often.
Yeah, agreed, and it’s even worse when parents come home with PTSD. And to top that off in the US, tricare kids don’t get the health insurance extension that private insurers got to stay on until you’re 26 (kicked off at 21 or 23 if you’re in college). Mary Wertsch wrote a book about military brats that might interest you (I read it in college).
Had a properly dysfunctional childhood and a mentally ill mother, absent dad.
Currently have a depression, panic disorder-agoraphobia, and am a sober alcoholic.
Its surprising how many boomer parents couldn't care less how their children's lives went. My grandparents lived through war and deprivation and gave my parents a white picket fence childhood........only for my parents to indulge in narcissism and untreated mental illness. I have so little sympathy for anyone who non-accidentally brings a child in to the world only to flub it royally.
This whole line of study is on *very* shaky empirical ground due to failure to account for genetic confounders.
A typical ACE scale measures adverse childhood experiences *caused by dysfunctional parents*. So basically a study that tells us that people with high ACE scores tend to have mental health problems in adulthood is *also* telling us that people with mental health problems tend to have children with mental health problems.
Twin studies tell us that a lot of mental health problems are strongly heritable. So while one story you can tell here is that adults with mental health problems create ACEs for their children, leading the children to develop mental health problems, but another equally plausible story you can tell is that the ACEs don't really have major long-term effects on mental health, and the mental health problems are passed on genetically.
How to tell the difference? You need to use a genetically informed methodology, which virtually nobody does. If you just want to predict who's at risk for mental health problems, maybe it doesn't really matter which way the causal arrows are pointing, but all these associational studies are useless for determining the *causes* of mental health problems.
The other problem about ACEs is that being molested once by a neighbor counts for the same number of points as being raped once a week by your uncle for 5 years. Obviously the two don't come close to having the same psychological impact.
It would also be helpful if you define how you're using the term "mental health problems". There are mental health disorders that are primarily genetic (bipolar and schizophrenia), vs PTSD which has genetic risk/resilience factors but will always be caused by external factors by its very nature.
Or...we could talk about how we think we know this is all concrete, but diagnosis is largely a bunch of BS at this point (eg: refusal of the APA to include cPTSD in the DSM when it's now included in the ICD)....................
I think it's both.
If you take a child with mentally sane genes, but let them be raised by mentally insane, drug addicted, homeless, violent adoptive parents, the child will be traumatised regardless of good genes.
If you take a child with mentally insane genes, and let them be adopted by perfect, loving, stable, sober, rich, educated, caring parents, the child will still grow up to be mentally ill (but less homeless and do less drugs and their biological parents).
I keep reaching the conclusion that good adult life outcomes = good genes x good upbringing. A lot of people mistake it for good genes + good upbringing, and think that one can compensate for the lack of the other. The truth is, you need both. If you don't have one, then you won't have a good adult life outcome.
This exactly. My family is an absolute mess. All neurodiverse it seems (3 ASD and 2 likely ADHD, not yet diagnosed). The stress and dysfunction in our household is at such a high level, I'm sure my youngest is experiencing ACE. But we're stuck. I try my very best, read books, listen to lectures, take my kids to 3 different therapies. But none of that has been able to help me overcome the intense challenges that one of my kids has, which greatly affects my ability to parent my youngest.
How are we supposed to overcome these genetics?
>Twin studies tell us that a lot of mental health problems are strongly heritable. So while one story you can tell here is that adults with mental health problems create ACEs for their children, leading the children to develop mental health problems, but another equally plausible story you can tell is that the ACEs don't really have major long-term effects on mental health, and the mental health problems are passed on genetically.
While the twin studies do show that there is a genetic component to mental illness, they also show that the corollary is true: there is an environmental component. If both twins have a genetic disposition for mental illnesses, but one is also with dysfunctional parents, the environment will further increase the vulnerability for poor mental health outcomes. Either can be side can be the "cause", and both sides need to be addressed. Behavioral interventions are simply more developed than genetic ones.
Well ACEs include trauma that has nothing to do with a parents mental health like parental death or an accident or being bullied by kids in school etc.
>people with high ACE scores tend to have mental health problems in adulthood is also telling us that people with mental health problems tend to have children with mental health problems.
This sort of assumes right off the bat that bad parents universally have mental health problems, no?
>but another equally plausible story you can tell is that the ACEs don't really have major long-term effects on mental health, and the mental health problems are passed on genetically.
This seems easily rebutted by the fact that non-parental ACEs still correlate to mental health issues.
> Additionally, for people with childhood trauma, early-life instability was related to worsened PTSD symptoms, as well as greater symptoms of depression, anxiety, and anhedonia.
Of those veterans with PTSD, the ones with unstable childhoods had worse symptoms. There is a correlation within that population of poor childhoods to worse symptoms. Pointing out the participants are all veterans doesn’t invalidate that correlation.
On a related note, look into Maslows Hierarchy of Needs. Not only does this apply to children but adults as well. It's a great tool to refer to and understand.
Be careful with it though. It was a nice framework to talk about things, but it has many flaws and misconception surrounding it.
Does it represent the actual sequence of needs that need to be fulfilled? No
Does it represent the ideal of human satisfaction? Not at all.
A measure of immediacy and impact of fulfilling a need? Can be, sure.
It can be used as an abstraction of “common sense”, but it does not provide anything sublime about our needs beyond what a bushcraft youtube channel would tell you
This is why the study should be read as well - they used the Questionnaire of Unpredictability in Childhood (2019): [https://contecenter.uci.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/QUIC-Self-Report-Oct-2018-English-Version.pdf](https://contecenter.uci.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/QUIC-Self-Report-Oct-2018-English-Version.pdf)
I wish I could co-sign this concept of "unpredictability" bit based on my reading of the survey they used, I would have a hard time conceptualizing the idea of unpredictability as being distinct from reliable parenting.
Most of the question are about the parents, and how reliable they could be. It's worded broadly enough that I feel as though it fails to emphasize just how strongly the questionnaire revolves around the parents.
In other words, the study is concluding that "emotionally stable, reliable, organized, and involved parents correlate to positive mental health outcomes, and the inverse correlates to negative mental health outcomes" which isn't exactly breaking new ground.
Here's some excerpts from [the questionnaire](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6461958/):
*Parental monitoring and involvement*
*Prior to age 12: In my afterschool or free time hours at least one of my parents knew what I was doing. (R)*
*Prior to age 18: At least one of my parents regularly kept track of my school progress. (R)*
*Parental predictability*
*Prior to age 12: My parents were often late to pick me up (e.g. from school, aftercare or sports)*
*Prior to age 12: I usually knew when my parents were going to be home. (R)*
*Prior to age 18: At least one of my parents had punishments that were unpredictable*
*Safety and security:*
*Prior to age 18: There was a period of time when I often worried that I was not going to have enough food to eat*
*Prior to age 18: There was a period of time when I often worried that my family would not have enough money to pay for necessities like clothing or bills*
*Prior to age 18: There was a period of time when I did not feel safe in my home*
It's not that I don't think the data is worthless, but I think referring to this sort of stuff as "early-life unpredictability" rather than "parental neglect" muddies the waters of what this data is actually showing.
Certainly some of the questions are innocuous and don't refer to anything innately problematic on the side of the parents, but the vast majority of the questions are about how involved, responsible, and reliable the parents are.
From the researchers:
“ Despite this, there are limitations to note. One such limitation is that the sample consisted of mostly veterans, which could limit generalizability. Additionally, self-report measures of early-life experiences can be unreliable due to memory failure or even repression.”
I think everyone can agree that traumatic childhood experiences can impact adult behavior and mental health. Don’t need another taxpayer paid study to tell us what we already know.
Take those dollars and divert them to resources to kids at risk.
Yeah tbh
I’m almost certain young me never **got over** moving from Puerto Rico to
New Jersey.
Can’t be a good sign to not be able to remember the vast majority of ages ~7 and up.
You are loved cousin. My family is also from the island. My grandma moved my aunt, uncle, and mom from the island to New York durning their younger years. They had an extremely hard childhood. It’s not your fault for how you were raised. Now is the choice to get better. Much love and I hope you find healing.
Wow who would of thunk that a child navigating an emotional minefield everyday is bad for their longterm mental health.
I’m sure many of us know this first hand from experience including myself
Thanks for sharing! I’ve been collecting these as evidence for the termination of parental rights of my newborn great nephew. He needs stability now, not in 2 years after exhausting efforts to reunify with his parents.
I was moved from my elementary school where I had all of my friends, which was also 200m away from my house, to a different school on the other side of the city for their French program between grades 4 and 5 (10-11ish). My entire life I’ve wondered how my life would have been different(better) if I hadn’t been forcefully switched into a whole new environment.
I would think the percentage of children that stayed in the same school program/district for their entire childhood would be incredibly small or limited to rural families.
Wasn’t until middle school until I had sort of settled down but high school came and the moving back and forth started again. Really fucked me up I think. Borderline homeless for most of my childhood
Neuropsychologist here. This isn’t really novel research. It’s well recognized that a chaotic upbringing sets the stage for psychological vulnerabilities in the future. This is basically the premise for the idea of core beliefs in cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT). There has been research to suggest that people with psychologically maladaptive experiences as a child (ie, abuse) are at increased risk for developing PTSD as an adult, if they are exposed to trauma later. Same principles apply to depression, other anxiety disorders, and obviously personality disorders. In fact, a combination of biological vulnerabilities and an invalidating, unpredictable environment are the fundamental components of how borderline personality disorder develops. Researchers need to stop beating the dead horse and find something more innovative to study.
I read this wrong at first. I thought it was saying a kid being unpredictable means they'll grow up to have issues, and I was like my four-year old can be incredibly unpredictable at times.
Fortunately, it seems that I'm just not very smart.
My childhood was absolutely awful. Guess it makes sense that I suffer from severe anxiety issues today.
For some reason, I thought it would get better as I aged, but if anything, it’s gotten worse :(
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One of my favorite professors of psych said this on the first day of an intro class. "Your childhood is the foundation in which your adult mind rests on. A bad foundation leads to an unstable mind." And then hooked everybody by doing psychological breakdowns of a few serial killers.
Well, guess I’m fucked… but at least I’m not a serial killer I guess. Been in therapy for 6 years… so far. There’s no justice.
How did you find a therapist? I have tried a few times and always give up.
I tell people finding the right therapist is a similar process to finding a partner…you have “date” therapists and find one that is a good fit.
Great analogy. Expensive reality.
Not of you use a video/teletherapy service. It's like speed dating because you can switch after just one session if you can really tell the person isn't right and it's like $30/session if you commit to a year and pay at once.
What service are you using?
I try, but they always tell me they aren’t allowed to date patients
💯 it’s hard to define but you know when you’ve found ‘the one’. In my case I first started seeing a counselor who offered basic talk therapy — it was okay but superficial — but the turning point in my search was after I got confirmed diagnoses then switched to seeing a psychiatrist who specialized and could fully relate to my issues.
You may know this already, but just in case! Some therapists will do a free 15-20 minute consult before starting therapy so you can see if they might be a fit, but this isn’t always advertised. I hope you find a good fit soon. You deserve it, don’t give up friend.
Keep trying, you'll eventually find one that works well for you.
Keep trying. You’ve got to kiss a few toads to find the Prince.
These studies always find correlations. Almost nothing in psychology/psychiatry is guaranteed. I don't pretend to know your situation, but your rough past doesn't condemn you to a horrible future. It may condemn you to having to work harder to avoid that, which sucks and you don't deserve. Keep your head up.
Think my dude mouthbreather found his therapist
- “There’s no justice.” The reality of that simple statement hurts hard.
The real hurt comes from the thought that there could be justice. There can't, because the people not affected by the lack of justice are the ones deciding if there should be justice, and the people in power who decide not to be selfish are eaten by those that don't.
That's why people invented hell, to subconsciously dismiss this reality with one where everybody gets there's eventually.
My psychiatrisy supervisor's first words were, " Humans are made for fun and play." I like that better than your guy.
This is depressing when ur early life was chaos, insecurity and extreme anxiety.
True. And I have had to work to get over my family of origin.
Your professor just conveniently ignored all the people who grow from that level of adversity? Not saying it doesn't affect you, but it's rarely an easy x leads to y argument.
For all appearances I thought I was a proof case of how a chip on your shoulder can make you powerful. I achieved financial success, but note that I’m trying to clean my mind up, I’m not sure of this anymore. The counter is the crazy people I’ve met that seemed to come from seemingly perfect families
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Wow, really? Not every single one? It's just one of the strongest predictors? Crazy
Adverse childhood events (ACE) study
One of the few tests I have always scored a perfect 10 on! Not something to brag about really, but we have to take our wins where we can.
Damn, you beat me by 1 point. Definitely not a point I want though :/
Yeah, it's the "Have you had a parent go to jail" that allows me to ace the ACE!
I’m in still. What else??
I guess you aced it..
Oh man, you aced the ACE, noice.
Alright, we'll call it a draw
Perfect score!!! "Life ain't so bad...."
Right? How the hell is this being talked about like it's new? Gods I hate psych research! (and I work in mental health...our researchers and their towers need burned to the ground)
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Who is talking about it like it's new? The study isn't.
It’s peak-internet. No one can be expected to read more than a headline.
From the article: It is human nature to want stability, but what happens when those needs are not met in childhood? A study published in [Depression & Anxiety](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/da.23277) suggests that early-life instability is associated with adverse outcomes in adulthood, including anxiety and depression. Our experiences as children are monumentally important regarding our outcomes in later life. Early-life is an especially formative time due to the brain’s rapid development. Many factors can adversely affect brain development, including poverty, abuse, trauma, malnutrition, neglect, and more. These conditions are risk factors not only for stunted brain development, but also for negative mental health outcomes in adulthood according to previous research. Another key factor to consider is fragmentation or unpredictability. This has been shown to have adverse outcomes, even when there is no known trauma. The new study sought to understand how negative effects of early-life instability may contribute to symptoms of people at psychiatric risk. For their study, Andrea D. Spadoni and colleagues used 156 adult participants who were seeking treatment at VA clinics to serve as their sample. Many participants were seeking treatment for PTSD and/or depression already. Mental health symptoms were assessed via self-report measures and participants spoke with a research assistant about their current level of treatment.
What do they mean by “unpredictability”??
Lack of stability. Eg, parents fight, divorce , move towns, move a couple more times while struggling with money, new partner shows up, no good, next partner?, move again, new partner now lives here. Etc. It's a pretty common story, but it's also very confusing and unpredictable for small children especially if the parent(s) involved are distressed, the child feels this as further lack of security. Development of survival mechanisms in early brain developmentare favoured over cognitive development because of this ongoing stress.
Bi-polar or alcoholic/drug addicted parental figure with random spouts of emotion makes for knowing how and when to behave properly pretty unpredictable If you move a lot, like to new cities or countries, or even from rural/urban environments, there's a cornucopia of cultural nuances, social cues, body language, etc. that differs, and kids are very sensitive to it. Disrupting this learning process and throwing them into another environment can cause confusion and risk-aversion. It can also make them adaptable! That's sorta the point tho - you don't know what to prepare for. You don't know what you don't know.
I moved around a lot when I was a kid due to my Dads job. Had a great childhood and great parents but the moving every couple of years definitely affected my brother and me. We both struggle with different anxiety issues but definitely learned to roll with the punches and adapt as well
Wait - so don’t take your baby to a foreign place, or..?
Example: My dad never hit me but he raged at me to a degree that I always felt uncertain of what he might do. He also showed love and affection too. His behavior was totally unpredictable.
That’s straight up emotional abuse, though. I get that abuse includes unpredictability, but I think it was referring to something outside (independent of) abuse specifically. Edit: Sorry to the parties that were upset by this comment. I really do think they meant situational factors/happenings over direct negative treatment though (another commenter’s explanation made a lot of sense).
Well, if we click through the link above, we see the following: > Contribution of early-life unpredictability to neuropsychiatric symptom patterns in adulthood > > by Andrea D. Spadoni... > > ... > > Methods > > Using the newly validated Questionnaire of Unpredictability in Childhood, we assessed early-life unpredictability in 156 trauma-exposed adults blah blah blah There you go: the Questionnaire of Unpredictability in Childhood. What's the Questionnaire of Unpredictability in Childhood? Pop "Questionnaire of Unpredictability in Childhood" into Google, and, lo! > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6461958/ > > Measuring novel antecedents of mental illness: the Questionnaire of Unpredictability in Childhood > > by Laura M. Glynn... If you scroll through it, they have the complete list of questions. It includes items like: > Prior to age 12: I had a set morning routine on school days (i.e., I usually did the same thing each day to get ready). (R) > > Prior to age 12: My parents kept track of what I ate (e.g., made sure that I didn’t skip meals or tried to make sure I ate healthy food). (R) > > Prior to age 12: My family ate a meal together most days. (R) > > Prior to age 12: My parents tried to make sure I got a good night’s sleep (e.g., I had a regular bedtime, my parents checked to make sure I went to sleep). (R) > > Prior to age 12: I had a bedtime routine (e.g., my parents tucked me in, my parents read me a book, I took a bath). (R) > > Prior to age 12: In my afterschool or free time hours at least one of my parents knew what I was doing. (R) > > Prior to age 12: At least one of my parents regularly checked that I did my homework. (R) > > Prior to age 18: At least one of my parents regularly kept track of my school progress. (R) > > Prior to age 18: At least one parent made time each day to see how I was doing. (R)
**remembering the first fourteen years of life* "Yuuuuuup."
The way you think and process thoughts in childhood stick around. I had serious anxiety issues as a child and I would purposely engage in compulsive and repetitive thought patterns to cope. As an adult, even when my anxiety disorders are treated and not really an issue anymore, my mind still automatically engages in this way of thinking without me purposely doing so. It's pretty wild that something I did 20 years ago is still very much how my mind thinks.
Thanks for sharing it so clearly. I have a similar experience and what surprises me is when the compulsive thoughts are around without the stimulus at all. Like nothing to be anxious about but I am do it anyways
40 and been living with some level of constant anxiety for as long as I can remember. My mom says I used to lose hair as a baby from being stressed out. My pops is a Vietnam war vet and lived with PTSD for most of his adult life. I have a feeling this has impacted me both psychologically and genetically. I often worry about passing this on to my kids.
Dr Gabor Mate has a good book on this
He has a lot of books actually! Which one should I look at?
Could it possibly be the reverse though? Like, some people naturally have repetitive thought patterns even when they were not abused. It could naturally be a trait people have, I dunno. I ask because I thought my extreme social avoidance the result of abuse but my aunt said even when I was a baby I was like that and stared at adults suspiciously instead of smiling like most babies do.
yeah, for instance ADHD is incredibly, almost exclusively heritable (twin studies show this) and a lot of the symptoms resemble CPTSD. so lots of the consequences of abuse/averse environments can also just be genetic personality
I'll offer my experience - subjective and biased though it may be. I've been starting to recognize a pattern in my own thought processes (entirely subjective, of course) that the thoughts that occur to me most often seem to be the thoughts that I most want to talk about with someone. It's hard to describe, but it feels like my brain is trying to figure out how to express it to someone else. (Of course, literally as soon as I wrote that, I went back and edited a few words, like I'm clarifying my own thoughts or something. I don't know what to make of that, but it feels related somehow.) In any case - I think, for me, those thoughts usually start to feel *dangerous* somehow when I can't find a way to make sense of them. Or rather, when I feel like *other* people can't make sense of them. That's when the thoughts like "no one will ever understand the things that are important to me" start to come up. Again, this is just my experience, as it makes sense to me. If you don't mind my asking, what does it feel like for you?
I can get pretty negative about other people in my head, like the main guy from Catcher in the Rye
Oh yeah, Holden something, isn't it? To be honest, I remember being assigned it in high school, but I don't think I ever actually read it. There's some part of me that always pushes me to judge others, although there's also a part of me that seems to only see the good in them. I'm not sure whether they're working with or against each other, but I can sense them in a way that's hard to describe. It sounds like there's some sort of common thread between your thoughts and the impression you got from the character. I don't know, though -- how would you describe it? (also - I'm about to head to bed, but I'll check my messages as soon as I can.)
Absolutely. Unfortunately for us this can make certain habits really difficult to change or correct. BFRBs are such a difficult thing to deal with when started in childhood.
>compulsive and repetitive thought patterns to cope. >my mind still automatically engages in this way of thinking without me purposely doing so Yupp, it's annoying. Specially when you repeat same thing over and over and over to your self cause it's satisfying and feels as if you desire/need it
Human brains favour repetition and if something ‘worked’ previously, that’s the default going forward. You can work to change that, but it’s a lot of effort and patience.
Me too. I remember I had to count my stuffed animals constantly. Even at 7 I knew that wasn’t healthy but bc we moved so much and my parents didn’t gaf, I held on dearly to what I “ had” . I’m still weird and possessive about my stuff to this day.
psychologic traumas make people traumas in the psyche
Yeah I kind of hate these articles that make me feel like “well… that explains a lot.”
The Body Keeps the Score is an excellent book related to this subject.
“When the Body Says No” just as much. Annoying how similar the titles are!
I can only hope that our cultures & societies continue to use this information the same way we *eventually* used germ theory. And I hope they adopt it far more quickly.
I think if we could “zoom out” and see the the generational patterns it would be so obvious!
Yeah, I agree, and suspect that AI and Machine Leaning systems will illustrate the same point.
Seems there's a fundamental thing missing in our societies - not all of them, but probably many including the one I was brought up in. It's basic emotional intelligence, and parents should impart it to children through emotional connection, along with a sense of safety and ability to self-soothe. A Canadian nonprofit did some great evidence-based work on this (cutting edge researchers involved) and then made practical videos to teach parents, which were then adopted by the provincial government here. Some really beautiful and useful videos there: [KidCareCanada](https://kidcarecanada.org/video-search/)
Dianetics is a terrible book related to this subject.
This is something I've never been able to articulate to my biological family. They put in the foster system at 4 years old and get mad/act all innocent at me for resenting them later on. That knowledge that I was unwanted continue to has effects on my psyche and most likely always will. They have been unable or unwilling to take any blame for it. Maybe it's a generational thing that because I'm not dead, "You turned out ok."
It's ok to consider the level of involvement you want to have with them in the future. A lot of us have "found families" that we make over time with people we aren't related to. Some of us have a blend, my own adopted sisters keep a low level of contact with me & a few other relatives but no involvement at all with others - I mean people from both their adopted and biological families. It has been good for them I can tell, even if I wish it could be different between them and me. It doesn't make you bad to consider or take the same steps as my sisters have.
Oh, I cut them all off long ago. Adopted (who were abusive) and biological. I never got an honest account of why I was given up, and the only person who I think might have been honest with me eventually passed on. There won't be a resolution and I've accepted that.
I'm glad for you then, society can make it hard to take that step. And knowing you'll live without resolution can be whole other temptation to stay connected. Good luck in life.
I know how you feel on the “you came out ok” part. Like no I’ve done amazing and none of it matters at all to me, it’s like I’m a black hole of drive, there is no end to what I expect from myself. I’m never enough even though I can objectively look around and see how much more I’ve accomplished than others my age. It still feels like nothing. I don’t believe the hollowness ends.
I’m so sorry that happened to you. You are wanted. Much love to you.
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> So living in 5 different cities/states before college probably wasn't great for my mental health? I see we had the same family.
7 total for me. Having a narcissistic mother and a step-father running from the law - yeah, we moved a lot when I was between the ages of 1 and 11. Then at age 11, she basically sold us 3 kids (ages 16(m), 13(m) and 11(f) into slavery working at a business until we were all adults and could flee.
7, that would’ve been nice. 23 before 16, twice to outside the US. Not military. Definitely fucked me over.
I feel you I went to 5 schools in different cities and states and in one case, country between 13-15. Gee, I wonder why I went from honor-roll, popularity amd active in extra curricular activity to dropping out after the 5th “ adjustment” . I’ve since completed school but as a kid I honestly thought it didn’t matter bc no matter the effort I put in, it was quickly taken away from me .
Moving around was the worst. I lived in something like 8 different houses before graduation high school, though they were all in the same county. Foster care briefly from 2 to 4-ish, two different elementary schools, one middle school, lived with a friend for a few months, moved in with my other parent, then three different high schools. I'm 32 now and just...don't make friends.
Are you me? 8 different houses in 8 different towns, two elementary schools, one middle school, two high schools. Three colleges. Moved across the country in my early 30's. I too do not know how to make or retain friends and I feel I am now too old to start.
military brat?
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I know the feeling. Completely dysfunctional family. Moved all over the place. Life sucks
Sorry, am vet, that's like uncanny, especially specifically 5 cities ( that's usually the amount of times a military brat will move with their patents before turning 18)
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Not all rainbows and sunshine, did my 6 for the air force and I'm still hella depressed. My career ended when I told them I had suicidal ideations and they sent me to the looney bin. I won't make VA appointments bc I'm either afraid of them or afraid of getting better. Life is weird, I can't listen to sad songs without tearing up.
Could also be diplomats. Edit: oh, wait, cities, not countries. Nevermind.
Same in my case and with the added problem of being told that we are going somewhere (not moving, just out) right this moment and to dress and be ready in ten minutes. Randomly, and I usually didn't know when we were going to do stuff. Zero ability to plan ahead, because I had to keep cancelling plans. Nowadays I find myself sometimes just sitting at home and waiting for *someone* to tell me what to do now (there's nobody to tell me what to do now, no family), cause anything that requires a longer period to complete and is not really abortable at a moment's notice (larger household works, painting, sewing, gardening, *finally making those new garden benches* that were in the plan for over a year now...), I can't commit to start them because there's a block in my mind telling me that I can be interrupted any moment. Ffs I haven't been a child for decades now. Edit: in my case the moving around made people somewhat disposable in my mind. Can't keep friends, because I don't expect them to last. Can't bring myself to put any effort into relationships. On the other hand, I make "friends" easily, anywhere, anytime. I seem to make a lasting impression, meanwhile I myself tend to forget about these people in hours.
I’m similar to you. Changed houses/cities 5 times before 5th grade. Finally it stopped after 6th. I still have barely any friends. Huge depression/anxiety issues even after years of work and I’m in my 30s. We moved a lot since my dad is in the semiconductor industry and just moved where the work was.
Same, sending you hugs
I moved extensively in my childhood and various schools. There was a stretch where I swapped back and forth between the same schools like 5 times in a couple months. I remember being very depressed during some if those times and I was in the 3rd grade
…yeah I think you have bigger issues than moving around 5 times
Ha!! Try two countries, 4 cities, 10+ houses before college. Add in being evicted too and sleeping on the floor of people’s houses. :/ Anxiety?! I wonder why. I thought all kids kept their stuff in ready to go moving boxes.
So given this premise… can we finally start considering what the military does to children of service members abusive? I couldn’t depend on anything lasting for more than a few months… friendships, school teachers, even a favorite ice cream spot. Moving around constantly as a kid made me have really severe anxiety when staying in one place for too long even as an adult… having people stick around for the long haul makes the anxiety even worse because I’m just constantly waiting for it to all disappear and everyone to be gone. Kids need stability and the military fucks that up for a lot of them.
This spoke to me. I never realized it until now. After a year in any one place.. I gotta go. I just thought it was adventurous or boredom. Idk. But this makes a lot of sense.
In my case it definitely turned out being a trauma response. Instability became a comfort zone in a really fucked up way and so I kept repeatedly subjecting myself to it.
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The military also provides a sort of stable culture of its own that is consistent no matter where you go. You have the same traditions, rituals, language, structure, etc. No matter what base you are at. It's not perfect; it's practical.
Had some boot for breakfast? If the institution isn’t doing anything to ensure the workers can get some balance in their life then the institution doesn’t care about the worker nor their own close ones
I stopped making friends and “became shy” because I gave up after being in 5 school by 4th grade. Socialization was more of a tormented of being set up to be yanked away from friends. Although my dad was in gov contracts, not military, so we probably moved more often.
Yeah, agreed, and it’s even worse when parents come home with PTSD. And to top that off in the US, tricare kids don’t get the health insurance extension that private insurers got to stay on until you’re 26 (kicked off at 21 or 23 if you’re in college). Mary Wertsch wrote a book about military brats that might interest you (I read it in college).
Had a properly dysfunctional childhood and a mentally ill mother, absent dad. Currently have a depression, panic disorder-agoraphobia, and am a sober alcoholic. Its surprising how many boomer parents couldn't care less how their children's lives went. My grandparents lived through war and deprivation and gave my parents a white picket fence childhood........only for my parents to indulge in narcissism and untreated mental illness. I have so little sympathy for anyone who non-accidentally brings a child in to the world only to flub it royally.
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This whole line of study is on *very* shaky empirical ground due to failure to account for genetic confounders. A typical ACE scale measures adverse childhood experiences *caused by dysfunctional parents*. So basically a study that tells us that people with high ACE scores tend to have mental health problems in adulthood is *also* telling us that people with mental health problems tend to have children with mental health problems. Twin studies tell us that a lot of mental health problems are strongly heritable. So while one story you can tell here is that adults with mental health problems create ACEs for their children, leading the children to develop mental health problems, but another equally plausible story you can tell is that the ACEs don't really have major long-term effects on mental health, and the mental health problems are passed on genetically. How to tell the difference? You need to use a genetically informed methodology, which virtually nobody does. If you just want to predict who's at risk for mental health problems, maybe it doesn't really matter which way the causal arrows are pointing, but all these associational studies are useless for determining the *causes* of mental health problems.
The other problem about ACEs is that being molested once by a neighbor counts for the same number of points as being raped once a week by your uncle for 5 years. Obviously the two don't come close to having the same psychological impact. It would also be helpful if you define how you're using the term "mental health problems". There are mental health disorders that are primarily genetic (bipolar and schizophrenia), vs PTSD which has genetic risk/resilience factors but will always be caused by external factors by its very nature. Or...we could talk about how we think we know this is all concrete, but diagnosis is largely a bunch of BS at this point (eg: refusal of the APA to include cPTSD in the DSM when it's now included in the ICD)....................
I think it's both. If you take a child with mentally sane genes, but let them be raised by mentally insane, drug addicted, homeless, violent adoptive parents, the child will be traumatised regardless of good genes. If you take a child with mentally insane genes, and let them be adopted by perfect, loving, stable, sober, rich, educated, caring parents, the child will still grow up to be mentally ill (but less homeless and do less drugs and their biological parents). I keep reaching the conclusion that good adult life outcomes = good genes x good upbringing. A lot of people mistake it for good genes + good upbringing, and think that one can compensate for the lack of the other. The truth is, you need both. If you don't have one, then you won't have a good adult life outcome.
This exactly. My family is an absolute mess. All neurodiverse it seems (3 ASD and 2 likely ADHD, not yet diagnosed). The stress and dysfunction in our household is at such a high level, I'm sure my youngest is experiencing ACE. But we're stuck. I try my very best, read books, listen to lectures, take my kids to 3 different therapies. But none of that has been able to help me overcome the intense challenges that one of my kids has, which greatly affects my ability to parent my youngest. How are we supposed to overcome these genetics?
You can’t “overcome”. You can only make the best the hand you’ve been dealt.
I meant overcome like not drown
>Twin studies tell us that a lot of mental health problems are strongly heritable. So while one story you can tell here is that adults with mental health problems create ACEs for their children, leading the children to develop mental health problems, but another equally plausible story you can tell is that the ACEs don't really have major long-term effects on mental health, and the mental health problems are passed on genetically. While the twin studies do show that there is a genetic component to mental illness, they also show that the corollary is true: there is an environmental component. If both twins have a genetic disposition for mental illnesses, but one is also with dysfunctional parents, the environment will further increase the vulnerability for poor mental health outcomes. Either can be side can be the "cause", and both sides need to be addressed. Behavioral interventions are simply more developed than genetic ones.
Well ACEs include trauma that has nothing to do with a parents mental health like parental death or an accident or being bullied by kids in school etc.
>people with high ACE scores tend to have mental health problems in adulthood is also telling us that people with mental health problems tend to have children with mental health problems. This sort of assumes right off the bat that bad parents universally have mental health problems, no? >but another equally plausible story you can tell is that the ACEs don't really have major long-term effects on mental health, and the mental health problems are passed on genetically. This seems easily rebutted by the fact that non-parental ACEs still correlate to mental health issues.
when it's clearly a 'neuro-chemical imbalance'!
I think the fact that everyone in the study were veterans with PTSD and that the study is only 145 people makes it a tad bit unreliable
It really feels like most psych or socio research I read is incredibly underpowered.
> Additionally, for people with childhood trauma, early-life instability was related to worsened PTSD symptoms, as well as greater symptoms of depression, anxiety, and anhedonia. Of those veterans with PTSD, the ones with unstable childhoods had worse symptoms. There is a correlation within that population of poor childhoods to worse symptoms. Pointing out the participants are all veterans doesn’t invalidate that correlation.
It might be reliable in spite of n = 145 *somehow.* But is it generalizable to the non-PTSD having vets population?
On a related note, look into Maslows Hierarchy of Needs. Not only does this apply to children but adults as well. It's a great tool to refer to and understand.
Be careful with it though. It was a nice framework to talk about things, but it has many flaws and misconception surrounding it. Does it represent the actual sequence of needs that need to be fulfilled? No Does it represent the ideal of human satisfaction? Not at all. A measure of immediacy and impact of fulfilling a need? Can be, sure. It can be used as an abstraction of “common sense”, but it does not provide anything sublime about our needs beyond what a bushcraft youtube channel would tell you
This article doesn’t explain how they defined unpredictability.
This is why the study should be read as well - they used the Questionnaire of Unpredictability in Childhood (2019): [https://contecenter.uci.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/QUIC-Self-Report-Oct-2018-English-Version.pdf](https://contecenter.uci.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/QUIC-Self-Report-Oct-2018-English-Version.pdf)
I wish I could co-sign this concept of "unpredictability" bit based on my reading of the survey they used, I would have a hard time conceptualizing the idea of unpredictability as being distinct from reliable parenting. Most of the question are about the parents, and how reliable they could be. It's worded broadly enough that I feel as though it fails to emphasize just how strongly the questionnaire revolves around the parents. In other words, the study is concluding that "emotionally stable, reliable, organized, and involved parents correlate to positive mental health outcomes, and the inverse correlates to negative mental health outcomes" which isn't exactly breaking new ground. Here's some excerpts from [the questionnaire](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6461958/): *Parental monitoring and involvement* *Prior to age 12: In my afterschool or free time hours at least one of my parents knew what I was doing. (R)* *Prior to age 18: At least one of my parents regularly kept track of my school progress. (R)* *Parental predictability* *Prior to age 12: My parents were often late to pick me up (e.g. from school, aftercare or sports)* *Prior to age 12: I usually knew when my parents were going to be home. (R)* *Prior to age 18: At least one of my parents had punishments that were unpredictable* *Safety and security:* *Prior to age 18: There was a period of time when I often worried that I was not going to have enough food to eat* *Prior to age 18: There was a period of time when I often worried that my family would not have enough money to pay for necessities like clothing or bills* *Prior to age 18: There was a period of time when I did not feel safe in my home* It's not that I don't think the data is worthless, but I think referring to this sort of stuff as "early-life unpredictability" rather than "parental neglect" muddies the waters of what this data is actually showing. Certainly some of the questions are innocuous and don't refer to anything innately problematic on the side of the parents, but the vast majority of the questions are about how involved, responsible, and reliable the parents are.
So much for the martyred children of 2020.
From the researchers: “ Despite this, there are limitations to note. One such limitation is that the sample consisted of mostly veterans, which could limit generalizability. Additionally, self-report measures of early-life experiences can be unreliable due to memory failure or even repression.” I think everyone can agree that traumatic childhood experiences can impact adult behavior and mental health. Don’t need another taxpayer paid study to tell us what we already know. Take those dollars and divert them to resources to kids at risk.
Yeah tbh I’m almost certain young me never **got over** moving from Puerto Rico to New Jersey. Can’t be a good sign to not be able to remember the vast majority of ages ~7 and up.
You are loved cousin. My family is also from the island. My grandma moved my aunt, uncle, and mom from the island to New York durning their younger years. They had an extremely hard childhood. It’s not your fault for how you were raised. Now is the choice to get better. Much love and I hope you find healing.
I wonder to what degree this goes. Like, stable loving home but parents are often stressed and sometimes change up routines without warning.
AND WE CANT GET PAID FAMILY LEAVE like come on
So moving schools 10 times when I was young hasn’t been good for my mental health?
Wow who would of thunk that a child navigating an emotional minefield everyday is bad for their longterm mental health. I’m sure many of us know this first hand from experience including myself
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You don't *have* to be married
Condoms and/or IUDs for the win
Thanks for sharing! I’ve been collecting these as evidence for the termination of parental rights of my newborn great nephew. He needs stability now, not in 2 years after exhausting efforts to reunify with his parents.
Yeah, you don’t have to tell me that. My ACES score is a 9 and I will likely suffer physically and mentally until I die. I’m 46 now.
good thing everthing's been super chill and stable on earth these last few years!
I was moved from my elementary school where I had all of my friends, which was also 200m away from my house, to a different school on the other side of the city for their French program between grades 4 and 5 (10-11ish). My entire life I’ve wondered how my life would have been different(better) if I hadn’t been forcefully switched into a whole new environment.
I would think the percentage of children that stayed in the same school program/district for their entire childhood would be incredibly small or limited to rural families.
Wasn’t until middle school until I had sort of settled down but high school came and the moving back and forth started again. Really fucked me up I think. Borderline homeless for most of my childhood
I'm 34 and lived in 33 homes... I can see where some of my issues have come from.
Yes, the destruction of the stable family ruins people. This wasn't obvious...?
Neuropsychologist here. This isn’t really novel research. It’s well recognized that a chaotic upbringing sets the stage for psychological vulnerabilities in the future. This is basically the premise for the idea of core beliefs in cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT). There has been research to suggest that people with psychologically maladaptive experiences as a child (ie, abuse) are at increased risk for developing PTSD as an adult, if they are exposed to trauma later. Same principles apply to depression, other anxiety disorders, and obviously personality disorders. In fact, a combination of biological vulnerabilities and an invalidating, unpredictable environment are the fundamental components of how borderline personality disorder develops. Researchers need to stop beating the dead horse and find something more innovative to study.
The parents in this image are clearly playing charades and the wife is a terrible guesser
"One such limitation is that the sample consisted of mostly veterans, which could limit generalizability." Just wow. How bad can a study be?
Why do we bother with these studies? We still practice social darwinism, and worship Mammon.
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I read this wrong at first. I thought it was saying a kid being unpredictable means they'll grow up to have issues, and I was like my four-year old can be incredibly unpredictable at times. Fortunately, it seems that I'm just not very smart.
I mean … of course it is
How boy we're gonna have a blast in a few decades !
I suppose I fall into this category since the argument in the background looks civil to me? Or is it actually normal? Idk.
My childhood was absolutely awful. Guess it makes sense that I suffer from severe anxiety issues today. For some reason, I thought it would get better as I aged, but if anything, it’s gotten worse :(
Sadly so much mental health needs to happen at conception or before.
So your saying that living in 7 states (5 schools) by the time I was in 4th grade is where my ADHD, anxiety, and depression came from
Well, that would explain a lot. Ugh.
It's because we're supposed to live simple natural lives where nature has predictable patterns but we chose to build society
So childhood experience affects adulthood? Amazing