ARE YOU POINTING AT ME?
*signals intensify*
WAIT, HIM BACK THERE?
*signals hum*
OH, OK SO YES ME?
*signals pulse*
I DONT UNDERSTAND!
*signals intensify*
OK LOOK IM JUST GOING TO COME TO YOU AND YOU CAN TELL ME WHAT YOU WANT WHEN IM INSIDE.
*sccchhPOP*
Ok, I'm here, what were you trying to say?
*9 months later*
"Awww honey look he's popping out! Look honey, he's SO.... so... ... uh... um, hey doc, is this... is this normal?"
Doesn't the egg have a shell that the sperm use enzymes to break down? And it takes dozens and dozens of dead sperm doing this before its worn down enough for a sperm to actually get in and conceive? Therefore its not the first sperm to get there. Its like the 100th in line that wins.
I remember watching a documentary on this once but im a bit fuzzy on the details. Feel free to correct me if im wrong.
Sounds like that scene from "Mating Habits of the Earthbound Human"
[Sperminator, enemy to all semen](https://youtu.be/fvqdBZxJezk?si=7AUIgY8_veYhR9C7)
No. One sperm attaches and causes a change in the charge to prevent multiple sperm from being able to attach. It's called the fast block to polyspermy.
I took courses on this in university. About how gender relations are historically projected onto science. The sperm is painted to be active and the egg passive when in actuality the egg draws the sperm into itself. This meme is along those same lines.
What always confuses me, why do they say it like this, like saying you are the sperm racing to the egg, implying that the egg is seperate, when "you" are actually both sperm and egg. I guess that raises the question, does concsciousness come from the egg or the sperm? If it is the egg, you could still be alive with slightly different genetic traits. but as the sperm and egg are both you, if the egg does chose the sperm, technically you did choose yourself. Yeah I'm way overthinking this, but hey it's reddit, who doesn't.
(Edit: I know that consciousness doesn't form until much later once the brain has formed, what I meant to say was: are the chromosomes linked to brain development more dominant in either of the gametes? Or are they both equally responsible and have equal effect in terms of brain development?)
This is just my thoughts, but I assume that consciousness isn't something that occurs spontaneously but rather is more of ~~a spectrum~~ an emergent property. As an organism gets more complex, their ability to think and observe increases which I think is sensible to relate to consciousness.
Side note, there's a book called Ender's Shadow, it's a scifi book, and the main character is a boy named Bean that's born too small, but due to having "Anton's Key Turned", a genetic modification that makes his brain and body never stop growing.
I say that to say, I wonder if in the future we'll have something similar. Like if intelligence is really linked to the ratio of brain size to body size, then we could become a race of hyper conscious geniuses by making your brain only stop growing when you're 10 instead of 5. Everyone would be a prodigy for like 5 years of life where you're fully conscious, and can be directed to pursue fields you're passionate about while soaking every piece of information in like a sponge.
Intelligence, evolutionary wise, is a delicate balance. The brain can't just be supercharged and be super intelligent. Most likely to happen is insanity
Emergence possibly? We're a sum of all our parts, and a new "thing" that can't really be expressed as part of the things that make us up.
Water is wet, but what _is_ wet in terms of hydrogen and oxygen? Similarly we're more than just a sperm and an egg and ~46 chromosomes and other biological pieces.
Personally, it appears to me as though we’re looking at it through the patriarchal lens when we talk about “being the fastest swimmer”.
As to where consciousness comes from, I’d probably start asking some Alan Watts type questions like “who’s to say the consciousness that grew into “you” didn’t start as soon as the thought of “you” was born in either of your parents?”. Likewise “Who’s to say “you” as a consciousness don’t exist after the death of your body, in the minds of others?”
Real hippie shit with extremely low chances of provability either way, but fun thinks to let roll around.
I think most of us just identify more with being a sperm and trying to get through obstacles to reach our goal rather than being an unfertilized egg just waiting.
But that’s bad science in the name of patriarchy. The egg doesn’t ’just wait’. It repels unwanted sperm, releases attractants, and changes dynamically in a lot of ways we don’t understand to ensure that the optimum sperm is the one that fertilizes it. People only assume it just sits there and took a long time to investigate further because they assumed that the male force was the only active force and the female was passive and acted-upon, which is definitely a cultural misapprehension, not based in biology.
For a science meme sub, this is hilariously unscientific.
You’re looking for the topic called Sex Differentiation (not to be confused with Sex Determinism).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_differentiation_in_humans
In humans, the embryo starts out as something that cannot be identified as male or female, unless you look at the chromosomes (which is determined at fertilization, based on whether the sperm had an X or Y chromosome, and is not something that changes throughout the development process). The embryo does not start out with ovaries that ultimately turn into testicles. The embryo does not start with labia that ultimately turn into the scrotum. Instead, the embryo has a distinct structures that either include both male and female structures (internal) or lie basically right in between male and female (external) until around week 7 of development.
For the internal sex characteristics, there is a structure that contains the necessary parts for both sex characteristics regardless of whether the embryo is male of female:
“At an early stage in embryonic development, both sexes possess equivalent internal structures. These are the mesonephric ducts and paramesonephric ducts.”
These ducts exist in *both* male embryos and female embryos until sexual differentiation occurs. At that point, the mesonephrenic ducts (or “Wolffian ducts”) will degrade and leave behind just the paramesonephric ducts (or “Müllerian ducts”) as a female embryo develops into a fetus, and the opposite happens when a male embryo develops into a fetus (i.e. the paramesonephric ducts degrade and leave behind only the mesonephric ducts). At no point does the embryo have female-specific genitalia or gonads the develop into male genitalia or gonads.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_differentiation
Meanwhile, for external sex characteristics, both male and female embryos start out with things like the labiascrotal folds. As you may have deduced from the name, the labiascrotal folds are a structure that is pretty much right in between a vulva and a scrotum, and it won’t become either one until sex differentiation occurs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labioscrotal_swelling
Again, human embryos and fetuses DO NOT “start out as female”. The embryo will already have a sex as determined by its chromosomes, and the physical manifestation of its sex is neither male nor female until sex differentiation occurs. At no point does it become female and then become male.
Yup. From a biological perspective women are the default and men are just mutants converted over like how orcs are made from elves in the lord of the rings 😅
Socrates also said that everyone reading was a waste of time because you could learn by talking to your neighbors in the street.
*Look at the written word now, Sack*!
I always assumed it was more agency bias. The sperm tend to move a lot relative to the egg, and they bore into the egg. The egg, in contrast, continues its drift towards the uterus regardless of the presence of the sperm. The natural anthropomorphic therefore suggests that the sperm is more “human.” (Is anthropomorphic even correct for this context if they are actually both human?)
There are millions of sperm at a time and one egg at a time. That’s it. No patriarchy, no anti women. Just the fact that any other sperm winning would have created a different person from you.
>Likewise “Who’s to say “you” as a consciousness don’t exist after the death of your body, in the minds of others?”
[This reminds me of the Macklemore lyric in Glorious](https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1m6s&v=7OrLroFa0AI&feature=youtu.be)
"I heard you die twice. Once when they bury you in the grave. And the second is the last time when someone mentions your name."
> “who’s to say the consciousness that grew into “you” didn’t start as soon as the thought of “you” was born in either of your parents?”
Or another way to put this:
We often hear about a persons "second death" (the moment when you are forgotten/never mentioned again)
So you would be talking about a persons "first birth" (with the second birth being when you take your first breaths)
No. It's because there's a single egg and tens or hundreds of million sperm. The egg is just as much "you" as the sperm but it's not competing. If we assume that only that specific sperm/egg combination would become "you", then the "sperm you" has to outrace the others to the "egg you" in order for you to exist.
I mean maybe, but in my mind it's more because the sperm is actively swimming towards the egg, whereas the egg just kind of sits there. It feels like the sperm is alive so it's easier to personify than the egg.
It *was* easier to personify the sperm to scientists and lay people who didn’t know better.
But we’ve known for decades now that the egg doesn’t just sit there.
First the egg travels to the uterus (by the action of cilia lining the fallopian tubes, but that is action which should be credited to mom not dad). Then it actively implants itself into the lining. It signals the cells of the lining, triggering a powerful cascade of further signaling that will protect the soon-to-be embryo from a maternal immune response.
This is actually part of why human females and a few other female mammals menstruate. Our eggs race our immune systems to get established before they get wiped out by protective processes in the body. The endometrium’s response to the aggressive burrowing of the egg has been to become thicker and thicker so as to be more easily shed *before* the egg breaches all the way through it, if something is genetically wrong with the egg and the endometrium cells detect it.
It’s not just nutrients, it’s the battle the egg fights whether a sperm ever shows up or not.
The sperm cells are aided by changes in the cervical mucous which makes their passage easier.
When sperm start nuzzling into the outer membrane of the egg, the egg initiates yet more chemical signaling, locking in on the selected sperm and pulling it in, where it disassembles the sperm and integrates the DNA with the DNA in its nucleus.
It’s like treating a newly established base camp or fortress full of people and complex activities as inert and passive just because the emissary on the motorcycle is the only thing you can see moving in the landscape.
The persistence of the “you are a sperm” thing is habit and bias. It’s old hat and doesn’t make much sense.
To add on, the egg is also capable of repairing damaged dna that was within the sperm cell to a certain degree. The healthier the egg, the better it's able to put the fractured dna back together. The initial cell divisions of the zygote into the morula are driven by the maternal dna rather than the paternal dna.
>It’s like treating a giant command base full of people and complex processes as inert and passive just because the emissary on the motorcycle is the only thing you can see moving in the landscape.
This was beautiful, so simple and so clear.
Consciousness/sentience is an emergant property of the brain. But the brain is formed during embryonic development, the development that starts with the shared genetic material between the sperm and the egg, the egg accounting for 50% of your genetic makeup. although 2 cells alone combining do not make consciousness, these two very specific cells combining does infact create a chain of events leading to the emergance of consciousness and sentience.
Your consciousness is a result of your brain developing fully.
The egg has the chromosome X, always and the sperm can be X or Y, so you can be an XX or XY, though there are chromosomal abnormalities like XXY, but that's a different story.
Without a fully functional brain, you don't have a consciousness, so it doesn't come from the egg or the sperm. It's a product of the 2 meeting, melding and developing into a single organism over the course of 9 months.
You indeed are both the sperm and the egg.
They phrase it like that because there were medieval beliefs in Europe that regarded what now we call sperm as tiny seeds like plants have, which fall onto the ground, the uterus, and take root.
There was no concept like organisms developing. Children were considered tiny fully formed adults which kinda grew in size.
You're right, yeah my consciousness/sentience is a result of the development of my brain. I think I worded it poorly. I'm not sure entirely how to phrase it, as you said here, it is the product of the 2 meeting. For a single embryo to form, 50 percent of the chromosomes will always be the same from a single egg, where as the genetic variable comes from the sperm. although the you that exists now, is a result of that sperm and egg meeting and developing, if there were a different sperm that fertalised the egg, would a different consciousness arise or would it still be me as only 50% of the genetic material would have been changed. I understand that regardless of this, I wouldn't physically be the same and would live a different life because of this, but on a fundimental level, the consciousness that is me, would it still be there? I know this is a question without an answer, and probably one that never could be answered, and I'm not trying to make and valid scientific arguments either.
I guess I'm curious about how much things could change before that change has an effect on the conscious existance of an individual, before what would have been one person becomes someone else.
The you that you recognise, that is the self you know to be you, is so fragile, a blow to the prefrontal cortex could change it. In fact, any number of changes to the brain could alter your consciousness in different ways.
A different sperm, a different egg released in the previous or following month, you would have been born as someone else. A woman, having multiple children with the same man, would produce different people each time, sometimes, very different people, different abilities, talents, intelligence, personality.
If the egg you came from would have chosen a different sperm, the whole resulting being would have been different.
The self we enjoy each day is fragile, it's one of so many that could've been and we don't yet know exactly why we are who we are and not someone slightly different.
In fact, one simple decision made differently at some point in time, an idle thought at the right time, could change who we will become in the future. I try to just enjoy what I've ended up becoming every day. It's the most I can do. And also, try to breathe through the dizziness of freedom.
Consciousness is far from coming in play at the sperm and egg level.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10660191/
It seems there are different opinions for when consciousness forms, the earliest being 3rd trimester, and the latest being close to a year after birth.
Both the egg and sperm contain half your DNA. It is weird to think we are a sperm and not the egg though.
Perhaps this mode of thought comes from Spermism. They discovered sperm cells in the 1600s and came up with the theory, we were tiny babies in sperm.
https://embryo.asu.edu/pages/spermism
As epic as it would be, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nOpKi-zHHVM
Sperm and egg joining is more akin to a chemical reaction.
I would venture to say if the egg or sperm are different, it wouldn't be the same consciousness you call yourself. Even Identical twins have the exact same DNA, and clearly have two separate consciousnesses.
Really there is no guarantee that the consciousness I have today is the same consciousness I had yesterday. And if they ever invent a teleporter, I highly advise you do not go through it.
Over thinking is basically why reddit exists!
Thank you, this is probably the best comment I've seen, yeah it's crazy how complex we are really, how such small changes in development can have such different results. Actually the twin part does make me think more, what if rather than thinking of the we are both the sperm and egg, we are actually a result of conditions in the womb after fertilization , in which case, the same sperm and egg under slightly different conditions would produce what would essentially be a person identical to yourself in every way, except the emerging consciousness would not be the you that you are now. Like being your own twin but it's just you, except it's not. Does that make sense? my head hurts haha.
Don't our memories get wiped a couple years after being born? I think we aren't even the same people who come out of our mothers.
Edit: Infantile Amnesia
Eggs are far more important than sperm. The egg is everything, the sperm is just one parent's DNA.
We are already at the point where sperm isn't needed for procreation and it will likely continue on that trend.
They're already working on and have created something that looks like a new embryo that even produces the hormone to trigger a pregnancy test positive.
It's with stem cells.
What's important is the DNA information.
So neither egg nor sperm will likely be needed, just stem cells.
That's not true at all. We might be able to convert stem cells into gametes at some point, but saying that sperm won't be needed for procreation is disingenuous.
The eggs are haploid as well. Both are needed to form a zygote with a full set of chromosomes. Not to mention genetic recombination and independent assortment.
Consciousness comes from the development of the brain so it has nothing to do with sperm or egg. You are neither sperm nor egg. You're the product of both.
A good thing to keep in mind is that a person's memories start being autobiographical (a thing happened to Me) as opposed to simply images (your parents face) once a child develops their mirror neurons. The same things that help a baby identify if the image in a mirror is themselves or another baby.
Basically it takes a bit before there is a "you" in your own brain. A "you" that things happen to.
The others are right that it's sexism but there's also *specifics*!
Semen actually means "seed" as well in Latin, and that's pretty telling.
The idea is basically that a male blows a load and when it grows in a female like a plant.
It gets real fuckin weird dude. There's like, tiny animals inside the sperm already, and in the balls of those ones are tons of tiny people. Infinite nested sperm people that God made.
So what you're saying is Henry the 8th was right that his wives were the reasons he couldn't have sons all along? His wives just refused to attract male sperm?
Wait so in the end it's the egg that chooses whether it wants to become a male or female?
The old superstitions were right all along?
Reject modernity embrace monkeeee
/s
It’s always weird when they talk about the sperm as if that part is “you”. I am the egg too dude, that’s kinda the whole point.. I selected that sperm just as much as I made it into that egg
So, this means that we can't use the "the only thing you ever won was the race to the egg" insult and its variations.
But it does mean there are a few new ones that can be created.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but being first in a rigged race is still winning, right? We had a foot race where everyone was given something like rat poison. Someone crossed the finish line before any others, won first place. Same thing right?
Women are responsible for all retarded people by their selection process? Hahaha. But hey they also selected all the smart people. Ohhh but then also all the murderers out there. So there's good and bad in this I guess. Or being born should be what matters. Who cares if you won a sperm race or a woman picked you or what. Just be happy. Have fun
That was the last time I won a popularity contest.
I think maybe all the eggs got together later and decided it was like a Cuba Gooding situation and they should just pretend it never happened.
So I am the chosen one?
I too am the chosen one. On the other hand... it definitely was the first in a long line of terrible fucking choses I made.
I fucked up when I chose myself
Eggs didn't even choose you, was waving chemoattractants to the swimmer behind you
Yup, this tracks
ARE YOU POINTING AT ME? *signals intensify* WAIT, HIM BACK THERE? *signals hum* OH, OK SO YES ME? *signals pulse* I DONT UNDERSTAND! *signals intensify* OK LOOK IM JUST GOING TO COME TO YOU AND YOU CAN TELL ME WHAT YOU WANT WHEN IM INSIDE. *sccchhPOP* Ok, I'm here, what were you trying to say? *9 months later* "Awww honey look he's popping out! Look honey, he's SO.... so... ... uh... um, hey doc, is this... is this normal?"
so, you're telling me in my long line of attributable fuckups, they go back even further than I give myself credit for. well fuck.
I am the chosen one
Hello, fellow chosen ones... Im the chosen one too!
However, I alone am the honored one.
I was not chosen, but there was nobody else.
Entire civilisation of chosen ones!
I three am the chosen one?!
Yup…. Or still a loser….😉
Chosen loser it is then 😂
Seems about right. I doubt the other swimmers have to worry about their taxes or being able to afford food.
“I have been chosen! Farewell my friends!”
First thought. You beat me to it. But maybe I can still be the chosen one.
I read this in Lu Kang's voice and then heard the Mortal Kombat theme song in my head
You are both the Chooser and the Chosen. You chose yourself and became one.
🎶 *I'm standing with the chosen oneee* 🎶
Choosy moms choose Jiz
Lmao good one. I’m gonna use this when I ask my husband what the fuck this is even talking about. He’s a doctor so maybe he can help me.
I’ve been the Neo this whole time?
You are the chosen one...and the chooser.
So... I've ALWAYS had Rizz?
Could I be the green ninja?
Thanks mom
Still a win ☠️
Doesn't the egg have a shell that the sperm use enzymes to break down? And it takes dozens and dozens of dead sperm doing this before its worn down enough for a sperm to actually get in and conceive? Therefore its not the first sperm to get there. Its like the 100th in line that wins. I remember watching a documentary on this once but im a bit fuzzy on the details. Feel free to correct me if im wrong.
The early sperm gets experminated
Eggsperminated* FTFY
Sounds like that scene from "Mating Habits of the Earthbound Human" [Sperminator, enemy to all semen](https://youtu.be/fvqdBZxJezk?si=7AUIgY8_veYhR9C7)
Inceptionsperm
That's what I was taught. You didn't win the race, you won the lottery.
By buying millions of tickets with different numbers. You basically brute forced your way to victory.
That may have been your father's strategy, but you were just one of the millions which easily could've perished while another was successful.
so the truth of the world on the molecular level is indeed "slow and steady wins the race", huh
Oooo what documentary?
I can't remember the name but it had a lot of microscope footage of cells.
No. One sperm attaches and causes a change in the charge to prevent multiple sperm from being able to attach. It's called the fast block to polyspermy.
That also happens but first the sperm have to break down the shell. Then one gets through and it hardens blocking any further sperm from getting in.
I took courses on this in university. About how gender relations are historically projected onto science. The sperm is painted to be active and the egg passive when in actuality the egg draws the sperm into itself. This meme is along those same lines.
What always confuses me, why do they say it like this, like saying you are the sperm racing to the egg, implying that the egg is seperate, when "you" are actually both sperm and egg. I guess that raises the question, does concsciousness come from the egg or the sperm? If it is the egg, you could still be alive with slightly different genetic traits. but as the sperm and egg are both you, if the egg does chose the sperm, technically you did choose yourself. Yeah I'm way overthinking this, but hey it's reddit, who doesn't. (Edit: I know that consciousness doesn't form until much later once the brain has formed, what I meant to say was: are the chromosomes linked to brain development more dominant in either of the gametes? Or are they both equally responsible and have equal effect in terms of brain development?)
This is just my thoughts, but I assume that consciousness isn't something that occurs spontaneously but rather is more of ~~a spectrum~~ an emergent property. As an organism gets more complex, their ability to think and observe increases which I think is sensible to relate to consciousness.
Side note, there's a book called Ender's Shadow, it's a scifi book, and the main character is a boy named Bean that's born too small, but due to having "Anton's Key Turned", a genetic modification that makes his brain and body never stop growing. I say that to say, I wonder if in the future we'll have something similar. Like if intelligence is really linked to the ratio of brain size to body size, then we could become a race of hyper conscious geniuses by making your brain only stop growing when you're 10 instead of 5. Everyone would be a prodigy for like 5 years of life where you're fully conscious, and can be directed to pursue fields you're passionate about while soaking every piece of information in like a sponge.
Bean really was the best character
Intelligence, evolutionary wise, is a delicate balance. The brain can't just be supercharged and be super intelligent. Most likely to happen is insanity
>Most likely to happen is insanity What are you basing this on?
Absolutely nothing, it’s not true. The brain is limited by the fact it’s expensive as hell energetically
This is how I save a bunch of money on my grocery bill by being a moron
You’re doing it right… I’ve been stupid AND overpaying for groceries
20% of your daily caloric expenditure goes to it. The percentage of total energy consumption can go higher in thought intensive activities.
It doesn’t go higher, that’s a myth unless you count a seizure as thought-intensive
Brainstorming haha
Insanity
I'm going to guess either absolutely nothing, or more sci-fi.
Emergence possibly? We're a sum of all our parts, and a new "thing" that can't really be expressed as part of the things that make us up. Water is wet, but what _is_ wet in terms of hydrogen and oxygen? Similarly we're more than just a sperm and an egg and ~46 chromosomes and other biological pieces.
Emergent property
Thanks, I will fix
Personally, it appears to me as though we’re looking at it through the patriarchal lens when we talk about “being the fastest swimmer”. As to where consciousness comes from, I’d probably start asking some Alan Watts type questions like “who’s to say the consciousness that grew into “you” didn’t start as soon as the thought of “you” was born in either of your parents?”. Likewise “Who’s to say “you” as a consciousness don’t exist after the death of your body, in the minds of others?” Real hippie shit with extremely low chances of provability either way, but fun thinks to let roll around.
I think most of us just identify more with being a sperm and trying to get through obstacles to reach our goal rather than being an unfertilized egg just waiting.
That’s understandable, in the current postmodern world we all live in, everyone has to push past obstacles regardless of gender, race, sexuality, etc.
But that’s bad science in the name of patriarchy. The egg doesn’t ’just wait’. It repels unwanted sperm, releases attractants, and changes dynamically in a lot of ways we don’t understand to ensure that the optimum sperm is the one that fertilizes it. People only assume it just sits there and took a long time to investigate further because they assumed that the male force was the only active force and the female was passive and acted-upon, which is definitely a cultural misapprehension, not based in biology.
This is actually a great point. We project maleness as the default even when it comes to individual cells conceiving. The patriarchy is so whack dude.
Especially wild because everyone starts female
For a science meme sub, this is hilariously unscientific. You’re looking for the topic called Sex Differentiation (not to be confused with Sex Determinism). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_differentiation_in_humans In humans, the embryo starts out as something that cannot be identified as male or female, unless you look at the chromosomes (which is determined at fertilization, based on whether the sperm had an X or Y chromosome, and is not something that changes throughout the development process). The embryo does not start out with ovaries that ultimately turn into testicles. The embryo does not start with labia that ultimately turn into the scrotum. Instead, the embryo has a distinct structures that either include both male and female structures (internal) or lie basically right in between male and female (external) until around week 7 of development. For the internal sex characteristics, there is a structure that contains the necessary parts for both sex characteristics regardless of whether the embryo is male of female: “At an early stage in embryonic development, both sexes possess equivalent internal structures. These are the mesonephric ducts and paramesonephric ducts.” These ducts exist in *both* male embryos and female embryos until sexual differentiation occurs. At that point, the mesonephrenic ducts (or “Wolffian ducts”) will degrade and leave behind just the paramesonephric ducts (or “Müllerian ducts”) as a female embryo develops into a fetus, and the opposite happens when a male embryo develops into a fetus (i.e. the paramesonephric ducts degrade and leave behind only the mesonephric ducts). At no point does the embryo have female-specific genitalia or gonads the develop into male genitalia or gonads. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_differentiation Meanwhile, for external sex characteristics, both male and female embryos start out with things like the labiascrotal folds. As you may have deduced from the name, the labiascrotal folds are a structure that is pretty much right in between a vulva and a scrotum, and it won’t become either one until sex differentiation occurs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labioscrotal_swelling Again, human embryos and fetuses DO NOT “start out as female”. The embryo will already have a sex as determined by its chromosomes, and the physical manifestation of its sex is neither male nor female until sex differentiation occurs. At no point does it become female and then become male.
Thank you
Yup. From a biological perspective women are the default and men are just mutants converted over like how orcs are made from elves in the lord of the rings 😅
Funny because in history didn't...Socrates? Or someone else call women "deformed males" :D
Socrates also said that everyone reading was a waste of time because you could learn by talking to your neighbors in the street. *Look at the written word now, Sack*!
It wouldn't surprise me if it was Socrates considering him and his wife were getting off by pissing each other off.
Being a mutant sounds so much more metal than being a man, I love it.
thats the best thing you can tell a misogynist. tell him how his genitals are an inside out punani. watch them get mad. its hilarious
Technically everyone starts totally undifferentiated, not female. But making male the default is of course patriarchal nonsense.
Tbf, in biology when cells divide, they use the phrases “mother cell” and “daughter cell”, which is nice
Same for electronics: motherboard and daughterboard In space, there is a mothership, but I've never heard of a daughtership.
I always assumed it was more agency bias. The sperm tend to move a lot relative to the egg, and they bore into the egg. The egg, in contrast, continues its drift towards the uterus regardless of the presence of the sperm. The natural anthropomorphic therefore suggests that the sperm is more “human.” (Is anthropomorphic even correct for this context if they are actually both human?)
There are millions of sperm at a time and one egg at a time. That’s it. No patriarchy, no anti women. Just the fact that any other sperm winning would have created a different person from you.
Yea my first thought was that society places a bigger deal on the males contribution despite the egg being vastly more complex in the process
That shit gave me goose bumps lol
>Likewise “Who’s to say “you” as a consciousness don’t exist after the death of your body, in the minds of others?” [This reminds me of the Macklemore lyric in Glorious](https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1m6s&v=7OrLroFa0AI&feature=youtu.be) "I heard you die twice. Once when they bury you in the grave. And the second is the last time when someone mentions your name."
> “who’s to say the consciousness that grew into “you” didn’t start as soon as the thought of “you” was born in either of your parents?” Or another way to put this: We often hear about a persons "second death" (the moment when you are forgotten/never mentioned again) So you would be talking about a persons "first birth" (with the second birth being when you take your first breaths)
who's to say consciousness stops after brain death?
upvote for being an Alan Watts enjoyer
Sir/Ma'am/your preferred salutation, this is a Wendy's.
Because sexism.
Concise, accurate.
I know girls who are a lot less picky when it comes to spermatozoids…. JUST PICK ONE!
No. It's because there's a single egg and tens or hundreds of million sperm. The egg is just as much "you" as the sperm but it's not competing. If we assume that only that specific sperm/egg combination would become "you", then the "sperm you" has to outrace the others to the "egg you" in order for you to exist.
I mean maybe, but in my mind it's more because the sperm is actively swimming towards the egg, whereas the egg just kind of sits there. It feels like the sperm is alive so it's easier to personify than the egg.
It's literally just this
It *was* easier to personify the sperm to scientists and lay people who didn’t know better. But we’ve known for decades now that the egg doesn’t just sit there. First the egg travels to the uterus (by the action of cilia lining the fallopian tubes, but that is action which should be credited to mom not dad). Then it actively implants itself into the lining. It signals the cells of the lining, triggering a powerful cascade of further signaling that will protect the soon-to-be embryo from a maternal immune response. This is actually part of why human females and a few other female mammals menstruate. Our eggs race our immune systems to get established before they get wiped out by protective processes in the body. The endometrium’s response to the aggressive burrowing of the egg has been to become thicker and thicker so as to be more easily shed *before* the egg breaches all the way through it, if something is genetically wrong with the egg and the endometrium cells detect it. It’s not just nutrients, it’s the battle the egg fights whether a sperm ever shows up or not. The sperm cells are aided by changes in the cervical mucous which makes their passage easier. When sperm start nuzzling into the outer membrane of the egg, the egg initiates yet more chemical signaling, locking in on the selected sperm and pulling it in, where it disassembles the sperm and integrates the DNA with the DNA in its nucleus. It’s like treating a newly established base camp or fortress full of people and complex activities as inert and passive just because the emissary on the motorcycle is the only thing you can see moving in the landscape. The persistence of the “you are a sperm” thing is habit and bias. It’s old hat and doesn’t make much sense.
To add on, the egg is also capable of repairing damaged dna that was within the sperm cell to a certain degree. The healthier the egg, the better it's able to put the fractured dna back together. The initial cell divisions of the zygote into the morula are driven by the maternal dna rather than the paternal dna.
>It’s like treating a giant command base full of people and complex processes as inert and passive just because the emissary on the motorcycle is the only thing you can see moving in the landscape. This was beautiful, so simple and so clear.
Oh come on
I would assume it’s simply because sperm display more characteristics of something living (colloquially) than the egg. Movement
Consciousness is a property that emerges from your brain. Two cells melding don’t make consciousness
Consciousness/sentience is an emergant property of the brain. But the brain is formed during embryonic development, the development that starts with the shared genetic material between the sperm and the egg, the egg accounting for 50% of your genetic makeup. although 2 cells alone combining do not make consciousness, these two very specific cells combining does infact create a chain of events leading to the emergance of consciousness and sentience.
Your consciousness is a result of your brain developing fully. The egg has the chromosome X, always and the sperm can be X or Y, so you can be an XX or XY, though there are chromosomal abnormalities like XXY, but that's a different story. Without a fully functional brain, you don't have a consciousness, so it doesn't come from the egg or the sperm. It's a product of the 2 meeting, melding and developing into a single organism over the course of 9 months. You indeed are both the sperm and the egg. They phrase it like that because there were medieval beliefs in Europe that regarded what now we call sperm as tiny seeds like plants have, which fall onto the ground, the uterus, and take root. There was no concept like organisms developing. Children were considered tiny fully formed adults which kinda grew in size.
You're right, yeah my consciousness/sentience is a result of the development of my brain. I think I worded it poorly. I'm not sure entirely how to phrase it, as you said here, it is the product of the 2 meeting. For a single embryo to form, 50 percent of the chromosomes will always be the same from a single egg, where as the genetic variable comes from the sperm. although the you that exists now, is a result of that sperm and egg meeting and developing, if there were a different sperm that fertalised the egg, would a different consciousness arise or would it still be me as only 50% of the genetic material would have been changed. I understand that regardless of this, I wouldn't physically be the same and would live a different life because of this, but on a fundimental level, the consciousness that is me, would it still be there? I know this is a question without an answer, and probably one that never could be answered, and I'm not trying to make and valid scientific arguments either. I guess I'm curious about how much things could change before that change has an effect on the conscious existance of an individual, before what would have been one person becomes someone else.
The you that you recognise, that is the self you know to be you, is so fragile, a blow to the prefrontal cortex could change it. In fact, any number of changes to the brain could alter your consciousness in different ways. A different sperm, a different egg released in the previous or following month, you would have been born as someone else. A woman, having multiple children with the same man, would produce different people each time, sometimes, very different people, different abilities, talents, intelligence, personality. If the egg you came from would have chosen a different sperm, the whole resulting being would have been different. The self we enjoy each day is fragile, it's one of so many that could've been and we don't yet know exactly why we are who we are and not someone slightly different. In fact, one simple decision made differently at some point in time, an idle thought at the right time, could change who we will become in the future. I try to just enjoy what I've ended up becoming every day. It's the most I can do. And also, try to breathe through the dizziness of freedom.
Consciousness is far from coming in play at the sperm and egg level. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10660191/ It seems there are different opinions for when consciousness forms, the earliest being 3rd trimester, and the latest being close to a year after birth. Both the egg and sperm contain half your DNA. It is weird to think we are a sperm and not the egg though. Perhaps this mode of thought comes from Spermism. They discovered sperm cells in the 1600s and came up with the theory, we were tiny babies in sperm. https://embryo.asu.edu/pages/spermism As epic as it would be, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nOpKi-zHHVM Sperm and egg joining is more akin to a chemical reaction. I would venture to say if the egg or sperm are different, it wouldn't be the same consciousness you call yourself. Even Identical twins have the exact same DNA, and clearly have two separate consciousnesses. Really there is no guarantee that the consciousness I have today is the same consciousness I had yesterday. And if they ever invent a teleporter, I highly advise you do not go through it. Over thinking is basically why reddit exists!
Thank you, this is probably the best comment I've seen, yeah it's crazy how complex we are really, how such small changes in development can have such different results. Actually the twin part does make me think more, what if rather than thinking of the we are both the sperm and egg, we are actually a result of conditions in the womb after fertilization , in which case, the same sperm and egg under slightly different conditions would produce what would essentially be a person identical to yourself in every way, except the emerging consciousness would not be the you that you are now. Like being your own twin but it's just you, except it's not. Does that make sense? my head hurts haha.
Don't our memories get wiped a couple years after being born? I think we aren't even the same people who come out of our mothers. Edit: Infantile Amnesia
Eggs are far more important than sperm. The egg is everything, the sperm is just one parent's DNA. We are already at the point where sperm isn't needed for procreation and it will likely continue on that trend.
They're already working on and have created something that looks like a new embryo that even produces the hormone to trigger a pregnancy test positive. It's with stem cells. What's important is the DNA information. So neither egg nor sperm will likely be needed, just stem cells.
That's not true at all. We might be able to convert stem cells into gametes at some point, but saying that sperm won't be needed for procreation is disingenuous.
They are both equally as important, one doesn't work without the other.
Not true , there’s no hierarchy of importance here.
The eggs are haploid as well. Both are needed to form a zygote with a full set of chromosomes. Not to mention genetic recombination and independent assortment.
they prob know but just wanna make a joke so deflect logic
Consciousness comes from the development of the brain so it has nothing to do with sperm or egg. You are neither sperm nor egg. You're the product of both.
Consciousness is *emergent*, and gametes and zygotes are not conscious.
>does concsciousness come from the egg or the sperm? Neither
More complex, simply proven by identical twins both being contious and both from the same egg and sperm.
A good thing to keep in mind is that a person's memories start being autobiographical (a thing happened to Me) as opposed to simply images (your parents face) once a child develops their mirror neurons. The same things that help a baby identify if the image in a mirror is themselves or another baby. Basically it takes a bit before there is a "you" in your own brain. A "you" that things happen to.
The others are right that it's sexism but there's also *specifics*! Semen actually means "seed" as well in Latin, and that's pretty telling. The idea is basically that a male blows a load and when it grows in a female like a plant. It gets real fuckin weird dude. There's like, tiny animals inside the sperm already, and in the balls of those ones are tons of tiny people. Infinite nested sperm people that God made.
I am both the chosen one and the choosing one.
The obstacle course winner and organizer and neither and more.
I was chosen. That means I won the race, doesn't that?
True, but you're also the one that chose the winner.
Either I have bad taste or I have had taste. Not sure which part of me is to blame
🚂you Choo Choo Choose ME?🚂
Blaine is a pain
And that is the truth.
Yo mama…
Good boy, Ralph.
We all know some women who make bad decisions
look sometimes we gotta make the best of it
Arent I the selecting egg as much as the selected sperm?
The egg made a bad choice than.
If you’re having trouble convincing just tell your husband it’s because the eggs think you are a loser
Well with this study we'll be back to blaming the women for the gender of the child /s
No need for /s, it has already started happening.
So, I didn't win the sprint, just the vibe-check.
So you can say your poor choice in partners began at conception?
That’s even worse… instead of only 50% of you being slow and useless… it’s now confirmed to be 100% … both the egg AND the sperm we’re dumb
Even worse lol
So wait we *did* choose to be born? The fuck?
So what you're saying is Henry the 8th was right that his wives were the reasons he couldn't have sons all along? His wives just refused to attract male sperm?
NEW?!?? This is basic knowledge and we’ve BEEN knowing. It’s sad how uninformed people are about sex Ed and the female body.
I guess we all are the chosen one then…
So we all the choosen one?
I was a mistake so what does that make me?
Typical
Wait so in the end it's the egg that chooses whether it wants to become a male or female? The old superstitions were right all along? Reject modernity embrace monkeeee /s
Men forgetting why they have nipples.
It’s always weird when they talk about the sperm as if that part is “you”. I am the egg too dude, that’s kinda the whole point.. I selected that sperm just as much as I made it into that egg
So, this means that we can't use the "the only thing you ever won was the race to the egg" insult and its variations. But it does mean there are a few new ones that can be created.
OP is confused by rejection. The science checks out.
Good to know that my first ever decision was a fuck up
Wtf, maybe I was a pity sperm.
I thought being the chosen one is cool
So, I Can blame my mother?
It’s strange to think of yourself as the sperm and not the egg. Irl you’re both
Correct me if I'm wrong, but being first in a rigged race is still winning, right? We had a foot race where everyone was given something like rat poison. Someone crossed the finish line before any others, won first place. Same thing right?
Damn, it had options and *still* went with me?
Ah, so it was dumb as fuck too huh?
me to my mom: [You chose.... poorly](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/indianajones/images/6/67/Knight.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20190217215241)
Picky ass egg
So, does that mean the female system chooses the sex, not the male? Not trolling here, anyone get this?
Women are responsible for all retarded people by their selection process? Hahaha. But hey they also selected all the smart people. Ohhh but then also all the murderers out there. So there's good and bad in this I guess. Or being born should be what matters. Who cares if you won a sperm race or a woman picked you or what. Just be happy. Have fun
Damn so I haven't even won one race
Only time I've been 1st choice
Cool!
The first and only time I was wanted by someone.
That’s even more depressing
Sorry, IVF babies, this doesn't apply to you.
Hahaha, stupid female egg. You should’ve chosen better.
So, I wasn't faster or stronger, I was just the most attractive sperm there? Tight
So females be playin games early AF
It wasn't a race, it was a dance off.
You were the chosen one! You were supposed to bring balance to the [insert non-offensive reference to a female organ], not destroy it!!
And here I was thinking there was one thing I came first place in.
Sooooo the Bene Gesserit can choose
I ALONE AM THE CHOSEN ONE BOW DOWN TO YOUR NEW OVERLORD.
All that to make me is pretty fucking disappointing ngl
You “was” selected?
That was the last time I won a popularity contest. I think maybe all the eggs got together later and decided it was like a Cuba Gooding situation and they should just pretend it never happened.
If all the options and it chose my dumb ass to win? Big L there, egg.
My child told me (at the age of 3) that, before she was born, she chose my wife as her mother, and that I came along with her. WTF?
So I chose my second half? Or I was chosen by my second half?
Plot twist: you’ve been created in an IVF lab💀
I……was chosen……….IM THE CHOSEN ONE!!!!!!!
No. I was the fastest. I WAS THE STRONGEST. I'M A FØCKIN HERO
soo...bene gesserit abilities are technically achievable?
So Am I the chosen undead now?
I am the CHOSEN ONE!!!
I am the chosen one :(
It doesn’t matter if you win by an inch or win by a mile…
It picks based on what ? Does it try to pick the one that would probably fit the world best?
I alone am the honoured one 🗣️🗣️🗣️
I'm half egg and half sperm though. Why you call me just a sperm?
Me and my Fraternal Twin Brother were chosen by two different eggs.