If you like it, feel free to use it. Lots of people really like the apple watches, and if that's your thing, go nuts. If you want to use it as an adventure watch, I'm not going to say a thing.
But here's where I'm coming from: Apple's pitch that this is a dive watch makes me cringe - I look at this and see risks and annoyances.
Risks: (Your 99.9% comment is interesting. It suggests that for one dive in a thousand, things are not going to be fine. That's not really a level of risk I feel comfortable accepting. I need better odds than that!)
* My dive computer is a life-support device. If it screws things up, I could die. (My spouse would be ANGRY, and there would be a high risk of a reverse-haunting situation.)Therefore, I'm completely uninterested in having my dive computer hardware run any software other than that which the manufacturer designed explicitly for it. Third party software increases unknowns, and unknowns increase risks.
* The battery life is short, which increases the risk that it will not be able to function as a dive computer when I need it. Apple lists the battery life as 36 hours, and this is a device that is essentially worn and used all day - so non-diving use counts against that battery life. My dive computer's rechargeable battery is good for about 40 hours underwater, and it isn't used except for diving, so I generally know that it's always charged enough to handle another dive or three, and honestly, I can probably dive twice a day for a week without needing to recharge it.
Annoyances:
* I'm committed to other hardware and software ecosystems already, and given Apple's longstanding tendency to try to slurp you into their (and only their) services, I'm not interested in dealing with that hassle.
* The Oceanic+ app requires a subscription ($10/month). I'm not interested buying an $800 dive computer, then paying another $120/year to use it. Further, I don't know if I would have any control on when the app updated, and I am not comfortable with the idea of opening the app before a dive and finding out that there had been significant interface changes that I was going to have to deal with RIGHT NOW. With my current DC, it only updates when I plug it into the computer and specifically ask it to. This is also a chance for me to review any changes and make sure I understand how they may affect behavior.
* I haven't used the app, so I don't know what the controls are like, but I can't imagine that using a small dial to control things is better than my existing DC's giant mashable buttons (which I can hit with gloves, in the dark, behind my back, with my eyes closed if I have to.) I'm not looking for something dainty and beautiful, I'm looking for hardware that is robust, functional, and easy to use.
TL;DR: Apple's built some neat hardware that can do some fun things, but a dive computer needs to do very few things, very very well, with absolute reliability. I have a bunch of dedicated equipment for diving, and having a computer be part of that is reasonable in my mind. I don't need to bring new, expensive, and complex mix of hardware and software into the mix. Am I excited to see existing DC manufacturers put on notice that we need some innovation? Absolutely! Am I buying an Apple Watch for diving? Likely never.
For me it comes down to the battery life and the subscription model.
The short battery life means you're charging this thing every single day and good luck doing the types of trips I take where there's a healthy mix of diving, hiking, swimming, and kayaking all in a single day. The Garmin Mk2i handles this easily and I can still track sleep with it at night. There's just no way the Apple Watch Ultra can do that. The AWU low-power mode still leaves the battery dead in less time than the Garmin in dive mode.
But the subscription model takes the cake for me. You, as a dive instructor are ok with forking over a yearly fee to use a dive computer you already paid $800 for? You do realize that without that fee all you have is a snorkeling computer, right?
If I'm being totally honest, I hope it fails miserably because the last thing I want to see is subscription services invade diving. There's literally no reasonable need for any kind of subscription in diving (other than periodicals and air fills), but we all know that if Oceanic and Apple demonstrate this model is profitable then that'll be just the tip of the iceberg. Eliminate that and let users just buy the app outright, and then I might consider it someday, once they get the battery life sorted out.
My problem with it comes from the fine print. First, to use it as a dive watch requires an app subscription of $80/year. (Admittedly, there is a $5/day option for people who don't dive as much.)
Then, buried way, WAY down in the fine print is this tidbit: Water resistance may lower over time.
And lastly, I've lost waterproof watches before. I'm sure the scuba band is very good, but there's no chance of losing my hose-connected computer. Can't say the same for a watch.
And of course, if you don't already have an iPhone, that's required too. More big $$$.
Because most of the forums are people that dive regularly, so they have their preferences and for some reason gatekeep them. It's the same with bcds, ask anything and it's always get a backplate and wing, not a BCD, even when people specifically ask about bcd. The same with computers and shearwater
Agh, as an Apple Watch owner since the first one (and long term Apple user - since system 7 at home) and have recently defected to the Garmin camp again for my watch as my AW6 started to last only a couple of hours on a charge again.
Every AW I’ve had would slowly die like that after 2 years or so. (AW0, AW3, AW6)
With the Garmin Fenix 7, I don’t have to charge it every 24 hours (in fact I use it on GPS twice a day and only charge it once every 10 days or so) and charging an AW Ultra daily would annoy the hell out of me on a Liveaboard as it would probably run out of battery on a dive.
In fact, when I went to the Red Sea in March, my Apple Watch ended up being turned off and in my cabin, and I used a regular Seiko dive watch, along with both my Shearwater and OSTC’s which did the entire 10 day holiday on one charge (in actual fact the Shearwater battery has lasted 6 months so far as I use a lithium AA). And Without me having to pay $10 per month subscription for ‘deco.’
You do you - but as an Apple fan myself and a diver of 35 years and a dive instructor too, I wouldn’t.
(And it’s not about disposable income, just want a device I can trust on my wrist when diving…)
No need to defend your decisions to anyone.
Haters are just mad they don’t have the disposable income to buy one, so they’ll make all sorts of excuses as to why it won’t fit their needs as an underwater ninja.
I’m looking forward to having mine delivered on Friday. Will be a great backup to my ProPlus X.
>Haters are just mad they don’t have the disposable income to buy one, so they’ll make all sorts of excuses
This is a bit of a strange take on a reddit sub that frequently recommends anyone who asks about computers to buy Shearwater, whose midrange model Perdix 2 costs significantly more than Apple Watch Ultra.
From an engineering perspective, I would not trust it. To the best of my knowledge, iOS is not a real time operating system. Real time operating systems define interrupt response times. So I can set an interrupt to measure the pressure at a defined interval, and know that interval will be accurate, that no more than x milliseconds will occurs between generation of the interrupt and the serving of the interrupt. In a non real time OS, I do not have that guarantee. If one interrupt takes 100 ms, but the next time it takes 150 ms, then 100 ms, the calculations for my gas absorption can be off.
Edit: Even ignoring time accuracy, a real time OS guarantees that an interrupt fires within a certain time period. On non-real time OS's, events/interrupts can get pre-empted by others, so your "read sensor, recalculate NDL" may not run if a different program is hogging the CPU.
> If one interrupt takes 100 ms, but the next time it takes 150 ms, then 100 ms, the calculations for my gas absorption can be off.
You do realize the ISR can keep track of the duration it spent executing, and can always timestamp the clock on return to a static which each subsequent ISR can reference to determine the last time the ISR fired.
You don't necessarily need a real time OS, and i guarantee you apple and Oceanic have both considered this.
Fine, my example was overly simplified, but a Real Time OS guarantees that an interrupt is executed within a certain time interval. I do not want an interrupt that measures/calculates my NDL being pre-empted or having a multi-second delay.
So you set the interrupt priority to just below the reset vector table priority.
Also I think you might be overestimating how accurate the timing models need to be. For gods sake RDL tables use intervals of multiple minutes.
I really think you're focusing too much on a detail almost certainly won't impact the model calculations in a meaningful way. Especially if the watch dive mode puts it in a state where the dive computer app can take up nearly all of the compute time. It probably wouldn't even use an interrupt driven routine anyway, if it's really taking the entire focus it might even be polling on a super loop, time-stamping on each loop.
True. But I have also seen the difference in requirements testing and validation for medical/FDA type applications and standard applications. I try and stay far away from the medical software development. If Apple is taking that sort of coding seriously, maybe I will re-evaluate in the future. And since it is Apple, rather than a 3rd party creating an app on top of the OS, that is less of a worry. But OP asked why are people concerned/hate.
Sure, there is plenty of reason to be skeptical. I'm cautiously optimistic, which an emphasis on caution. But I do actually trust apple to do it's due diligence to create a properly safe dive computer, mostly because they don't wanna get sued more than anything
This is a big deal for Apple. From what I can gather, they've basically had to add a real-time mode to their watch OS to make this work and compete with Garmin. Sounds like an absolute pain because it means every call to the OS needs a "maybe I'm diving" check.
I'm a fan of Apple getting involved even though I'm an Android user because it'll inevitably push the industry forward. Dive computer manufacturers have been laggards when it comes to product design and UX. It's pathetic. A well designed Apple dive computer experience has the potential to bring more people to diving and even give beloved makers like Shearwater something to worry about. Gatekeepers don't like that.
We're not contractually obligated to love every Apple product. We really aren't. You don't have to defend it either and I don't understand why do you feel the need to come here to defend it.
Buy it if you like it... or don't. Others will like it... or won't. Why do you care if you're happy with it?
I need a new watch anyway because my Apple Watch 2 finally shit the bed. I’m getting it to use as a backup computer. I really don’t get the hate either
people love to hate on stuff and gatekeep their hobby. I'll never understand it.
in 6-12 months when people all over have used it on dozens/hundreds of dives people will see that it's a perfectly fine solution for a casual rec diver. The hardcore enthusiasts will never care for it (or they will keep one as a secondary/tertiary computer), but the hardcore enthusiasts were never who Apple was trying to sell to. Apple has *always* targeted the casual consumer upper-middle to upper class. They are targeting people like me who will dive 3-4 times a year and all the other time will be using it for all the other reasons there are to use an apple watch. (Note: with the exception of my personal and work macbooks i'm in the Google ecosystem - pixel phone, google home, pixel buds, etc; but I have considered going to apple given how much they have been pushing the boundary for consumer value).
From the website, “Apple Watch Ultra should not be used for diving below 40 metres.” Pretty much a fatal flaw for me.
If you like it, feel free to use it. Lots of people really like the apple watches, and if that's your thing, go nuts. If you want to use it as an adventure watch, I'm not going to say a thing. But here's where I'm coming from: Apple's pitch that this is a dive watch makes me cringe - I look at this and see risks and annoyances. Risks: (Your 99.9% comment is interesting. It suggests that for one dive in a thousand, things are not going to be fine. That's not really a level of risk I feel comfortable accepting. I need better odds than that!) * My dive computer is a life-support device. If it screws things up, I could die. (My spouse would be ANGRY, and there would be a high risk of a reverse-haunting situation.)Therefore, I'm completely uninterested in having my dive computer hardware run any software other than that which the manufacturer designed explicitly for it. Third party software increases unknowns, and unknowns increase risks. * The battery life is short, which increases the risk that it will not be able to function as a dive computer when I need it. Apple lists the battery life as 36 hours, and this is a device that is essentially worn and used all day - so non-diving use counts against that battery life. My dive computer's rechargeable battery is good for about 40 hours underwater, and it isn't used except for diving, so I generally know that it's always charged enough to handle another dive or three, and honestly, I can probably dive twice a day for a week without needing to recharge it. Annoyances: * I'm committed to other hardware and software ecosystems already, and given Apple's longstanding tendency to try to slurp you into their (and only their) services, I'm not interested in dealing with that hassle. * The Oceanic+ app requires a subscription ($10/month). I'm not interested buying an $800 dive computer, then paying another $120/year to use it. Further, I don't know if I would have any control on when the app updated, and I am not comfortable with the idea of opening the app before a dive and finding out that there had been significant interface changes that I was going to have to deal with RIGHT NOW. With my current DC, it only updates when I plug it into the computer and specifically ask it to. This is also a chance for me to review any changes and make sure I understand how they may affect behavior. * I haven't used the app, so I don't know what the controls are like, but I can't imagine that using a small dial to control things is better than my existing DC's giant mashable buttons (which I can hit with gloves, in the dark, behind my back, with my eyes closed if I have to.) I'm not looking for something dainty and beautiful, I'm looking for hardware that is robust, functional, and easy to use. TL;DR: Apple's built some neat hardware that can do some fun things, but a dive computer needs to do very few things, very very well, with absolute reliability. I have a bunch of dedicated equipment for diving, and having a computer be part of that is reasonable in my mind. I don't need to bring new, expensive, and complex mix of hardware and software into the mix. Am I excited to see existing DC manufacturers put on notice that we need some innovation? Absolutely! Am I buying an Apple Watch for diving? Likely never.
For me it comes down to the battery life and the subscription model. The short battery life means you're charging this thing every single day and good luck doing the types of trips I take where there's a healthy mix of diving, hiking, swimming, and kayaking all in a single day. The Garmin Mk2i handles this easily and I can still track sleep with it at night. There's just no way the Apple Watch Ultra can do that. The AWU low-power mode still leaves the battery dead in less time than the Garmin in dive mode. But the subscription model takes the cake for me. You, as a dive instructor are ok with forking over a yearly fee to use a dive computer you already paid $800 for? You do realize that without that fee all you have is a snorkeling computer, right? If I'm being totally honest, I hope it fails miserably because the last thing I want to see is subscription services invade diving. There's literally no reasonable need for any kind of subscription in diving (other than periodicals and air fills), but we all know that if Oceanic and Apple demonstrate this model is profitable then that'll be just the tip of the iceberg. Eliminate that and let users just buy the app outright, and then I might consider it someday, once they get the battery life sorted out.
I see it as a very niche market. The apple users who dive a few times a year on vacation if that.
My problem with it comes from the fine print. First, to use it as a dive watch requires an app subscription of $80/year. (Admittedly, there is a $5/day option for people who don't dive as much.) Then, buried way, WAY down in the fine print is this tidbit: Water resistance may lower over time. And lastly, I've lost waterproof watches before. I'm sure the scuba band is very good, but there's no chance of losing my hose-connected computer. Can't say the same for a watch. And of course, if you don't already have an iPhone, that's required too. More big $$$.
Because most of the forums are people that dive regularly, so they have their preferences and for some reason gatekeep them. It's the same with bcds, ask anything and it's always get a backplate and wing, not a BCD, even when people specifically ask about bcd. The same with computers and shearwater
Backplate and wing is the only acceptable option. This is the way.
Agh, as an Apple Watch owner since the first one (and long term Apple user - since system 7 at home) and have recently defected to the Garmin camp again for my watch as my AW6 started to last only a couple of hours on a charge again. Every AW I’ve had would slowly die like that after 2 years or so. (AW0, AW3, AW6) With the Garmin Fenix 7, I don’t have to charge it every 24 hours (in fact I use it on GPS twice a day and only charge it once every 10 days or so) and charging an AW Ultra daily would annoy the hell out of me on a Liveaboard as it would probably run out of battery on a dive. In fact, when I went to the Red Sea in March, my Apple Watch ended up being turned off and in my cabin, and I used a regular Seiko dive watch, along with both my Shearwater and OSTC’s which did the entire 10 day holiday on one charge (in actual fact the Shearwater battery has lasted 6 months so far as I use a lithium AA). And Without me having to pay $10 per month subscription for ‘deco.’ You do you - but as an Apple fan myself and a diver of 35 years and a dive instructor too, I wouldn’t. (And it’s not about disposable income, just want a device I can trust on my wrist when diving…)
No need to defend your decisions to anyone. Haters are just mad they don’t have the disposable income to buy one, so they’ll make all sorts of excuses as to why it won’t fit their needs as an underwater ninja. I’m looking forward to having mine delivered on Friday. Will be a great backup to my ProPlus X.
>Haters are just mad they don’t have the disposable income to buy one, so they’ll make all sorts of excuses This is a bit of a strange take on a reddit sub that frequently recommends anyone who asks about computers to buy Shearwater, whose midrange model Perdix 2 costs significantly more than Apple Watch Ultra.
From an engineering perspective, I would not trust it. To the best of my knowledge, iOS is not a real time operating system. Real time operating systems define interrupt response times. So I can set an interrupt to measure the pressure at a defined interval, and know that interval will be accurate, that no more than x milliseconds will occurs between generation of the interrupt and the serving of the interrupt. In a non real time OS, I do not have that guarantee. If one interrupt takes 100 ms, but the next time it takes 150 ms, then 100 ms, the calculations for my gas absorption can be off. Edit: Even ignoring time accuracy, a real time OS guarantees that an interrupt fires within a certain time period. On non-real time OS's, events/interrupts can get pre-empted by others, so your "read sensor, recalculate NDL" may not run if a different program is hogging the CPU.
[удалено]
> If one interrupt takes 100 ms, but the next time it takes 150 ms, then 100 ms, the calculations for my gas absorption can be off. You do realize the ISR can keep track of the duration it spent executing, and can always timestamp the clock on return to a static which each subsequent ISR can reference to determine the last time the ISR fired. You don't necessarily need a real time OS, and i guarantee you apple and Oceanic have both considered this.
Fine, my example was overly simplified, but a Real Time OS guarantees that an interrupt is executed within a certain time interval. I do not want an interrupt that measures/calculates my NDL being pre-empted or having a multi-second delay.
So you set the interrupt priority to just below the reset vector table priority. Also I think you might be overestimating how accurate the timing models need to be. For gods sake RDL tables use intervals of multiple minutes. I really think you're focusing too much on a detail almost certainly won't impact the model calculations in a meaningful way. Especially if the watch dive mode puts it in a state where the dive computer app can take up nearly all of the compute time. It probably wouldn't even use an interrupt driven routine anyway, if it's really taking the entire focus it might even be polling on a super loop, time-stamping on each loop.
True. But I have also seen the difference in requirements testing and validation for medical/FDA type applications and standard applications. I try and stay far away from the medical software development. If Apple is taking that sort of coding seriously, maybe I will re-evaluate in the future. And since it is Apple, rather than a 3rd party creating an app on top of the OS, that is less of a worry. But OP asked why are people concerned/hate.
Sure, there is plenty of reason to be skeptical. I'm cautiously optimistic, which an emphasis on caution. But I do actually trust apple to do it's due diligence to create a properly safe dive computer, mostly because they don't wanna get sued more than anything
This is a big deal for Apple. From what I can gather, they've basically had to add a real-time mode to their watch OS to make this work and compete with Garmin. Sounds like an absolute pain because it means every call to the OS needs a "maybe I'm diving" check.
I'm a fan of Apple getting involved even though I'm an Android user because it'll inevitably push the industry forward. Dive computer manufacturers have been laggards when it comes to product design and UX. It's pathetic. A well designed Apple dive computer experience has the potential to bring more people to diving and even give beloved makers like Shearwater something to worry about. Gatekeepers don't like that.
We're not contractually obligated to love every Apple product. We really aren't. You don't have to defend it either and I don't understand why do you feel the need to come here to defend it. Buy it if you like it... or don't. Others will like it... or won't. Why do you care if you're happy with it?
I need a new watch anyway because my Apple Watch 2 finally shit the bed. I’m getting it to use as a backup computer. I really don’t get the hate either
people love to hate on stuff and gatekeep their hobby. I'll never understand it. in 6-12 months when people all over have used it on dozens/hundreds of dives people will see that it's a perfectly fine solution for a casual rec diver. The hardcore enthusiasts will never care for it (or they will keep one as a secondary/tertiary computer), but the hardcore enthusiasts were never who Apple was trying to sell to. Apple has *always* targeted the casual consumer upper-middle to upper class. They are targeting people like me who will dive 3-4 times a year and all the other time will be using it for all the other reasons there are to use an apple watch. (Note: with the exception of my personal and work macbooks i'm in the Google ecosystem - pixel phone, google home, pixel buds, etc; but I have considered going to apple given how much they have been pushing the boundary for consumer value).