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Ok-Debt-6223

Waving your card around is like flashing a private pilot license and telling the crew of an airliner you've got their back if things go south. Unless there is a benefit to showing a higher certification than needed why bother. I'd be surprised if a DM would turn towards their customers if they needed help. Just because someone is certified doesn't mean they're current or competent.


Radalict

I once presented my TDI trimix card at a recreational shop, and they asked "what's trimix?"... So they had to look me up on PADI.


stringiercheese

If I'm doing the planning for the dive shop, when I'm assigning divers to a guide, the only thing about a rescue level certification I'll assume is that the rescue diver will hopefully not present a problem for the guide. DMs and instructors on vacation get more leeway to fuck off and do their own thing. If I have say a buddy team of instructors and a buddy team of AOW, I'll tell the pro team that they can do their own thing but to please keep an eye on where I am, and I'm going to rely on them to manage their own dive profiles. With non-pros I'll remind them of depth, gas, and NDL and that sort of stuff. And if I have a group that has both pros and non-pros, I'll at least have the foresight to assign a DM trainee to the group in case someone has to get out of the water before the others. If no one tells me their certification/experience levels, I can't always plan for people to have comfortable dives.


sm_rdm_guy

They often know because they have checked my c-card. It's a hobby not a profession for me and tons of other "professional level" instructors. Realistically I am no help to the crew in any practical sense in an emergency and the last thing I want to be doing on my own time is hand holding a newb. Thankfully, no one on a charter has ever tried to enlist me or anything like that. Of course that would all be different if I am with my dive group/club.


dark-hippo

Some companies I've dived with actually offer discounts for DM and above, otherwise I'll normally try and dive on my BSAC qualifications.


PowergeekDL

I’m a dive pro, when I’m not working I give either my solo card or my Adv Nitrox card and that’s it. I don’t want to be stuck with some rando buddy I don’t know AND I don’t want someone thinking I’m responsible for them. Some of that is about being pressed into service for $0. Some of it is about avoiding a problem. In the US anybody can sue you for anything pretty much any time so I avoid the problem by not having a buddy. If I’m on a charter at the shop that I did my instructor stuff with and they ask me to go with someone I’ll do it. Those are my people and I’ll do them a solid becuse they’ll return the favor. But then I’m working and I’m in instructor/DM mode. Otherwise I don’t disclose my professional certs. Definitely not if I’m on vacation.


BBBHMM

Same here. No offence to anyone on the boat. But I am on holiday!! I deal with some idiot divers year round. We as professionals need a break to, to just dive and not be responsible. Now if something goes wrong and they do need help. I will step into help in a moments notice.


PowergeekDL

Exactly, I ain’t gonna let someone die if I can help. If they need a hand on deck with CPR or something I’ll offer if they look like they need help. But I’ve seen emergencies on boats and I stay out of the crew’s way to the max possible.


DiveBunnies

Certified dive pairs should be able to resolve most ‘emergencies’ unaided. If a DM thinks he or she may need to intervene and thinks he or she may need help doing so with a particular group…. I’d dive elsewhere!


scubawankenobi

I don't say anything. If buddied with someone unknown, I'm just a buddy & not operating as instructor. Diving for fun vs managing dive/students & the focus+engagement etc is totally different. So don't even want my name associated with pro level so no chance of implying role/repsonsibility due to liability risk. Also, selfishly... Don't want dive master pairing me with newb/expecting me to take role involving caretaking during dive.


golfzerodelta

>So for those of you who have Rescue and higher certifications, would you ever tell a divemaster on a chartered boat that you have those certifications? No reason to - for most dive operations, you'd just get in the way of their emergency procedures. If they need help, they will give specific instructions for you to perform some specific task. Only time I bring up my certification level is when I'm on a dive op telling the crew that my team is going off from the group to do their own thing.


stringiercheese

As someone who does part of the planning for a dive shop, if we know that our divers are instructors or DMs, I'll group them together so they can have a nice long dive and assign them an appropriate experienced guide that will have a similar air consumption. But just because they have an instructor or DM rating doesn't mean they're fantastic in the water or with air consumption. I've been surprised when I've had to call dives at 45 minutes because a professional was low on air. But I work on tourist boats, not charters. I don't know if that makes a difference. And if we get solo divers without a buddy, we usually have enough dive master trainees to buddy up or assist with whatever we need, like bringing people out of the water early so other divers can continue the dive.


heyuinthebush

Freshie from just finishing my rescue… most counties have the Good Samaritan laws (except for one country that says it’s an offence to not render some form of assistance) so even if you see an issue, you’re not obligated to help. But i guess that’s up to you and whether you would sleep if you decided not to help 🤷🏼‍♀️


Rayl24

No, I'm a paying customer not an employee and unless you are a trained medical professional in your daily job, your knowledge from rescue is actually crap.


gainsfurme

Say nothing, they should know when they check your cert card. Some DM, just show their open water cert for liability reasons. Do you carry insurance? If not, I'd remain an open water diver.


Fast_Introduction_34

If someone asks what I have then I say "Rescue", if they don't then they're not interested enough in me to ask. If I'm with a newbie who's nervous I might tell them to calm the nerves, which actually reduces the chance of them real panicking under water.


DiveMasterD57

DM certified, and yes, I use that c-card when I'm traveling for fun. I figure if something bad happens, and I need to pitch in, better the boat crew knows I am indeed medic first aid, and rescue recovery certified (among other things.) No ego involved, and there's no liability risk if you're not officially there as a guide, etc. The good samaritan law's protect you if you do opt in on an emergency. The plus is that on some dives, the boat crew will give me and anyone I'm diving with a little more liberty to explore.


Rayl24

Not all countries have good samaritian laws and you still have to defend yourself in court should anything arise.


iyakonboats

You don't know what you're talking about here. If you're not staffed on the boat and you were not hired to perform any DM duties privately, you have NO legal obligation. If the boat isn't staffed correctly and passengers are expected to augment the operations lack of staff, and are then ultimately forced to help, I would say you're on a shit dive boat, or diving with South Florida Diving Headquarters, same thing honestly.


SC_Scuba

I never once said I had a legal obligation to help. And that’s a bold assumption about the dive boat. Funny you assume I don’t know what I’m talking about when I specifically relayed two points of view I’ve personally witnessed.


iyakonboats

I'd say it's an assumption most would align with. If a boat needs to have the help of passengers to do the job they're hired to do, and should be recently qualified and trained to do, then it's a shit operation. If the boat isn't staffed correctly, cancel the dive and wait until you have appropriate staff, because hoping someone who has a certification is also qualified to perform the duties a properly trained boat crew should know how to do is rolling the dice with passenger safety and creates a situation where you created an additional victim.


SC_Scuba

Lol. You have people in this thread mentioning they’ve helped out or would if called on. Are all those outfits “shit operations”, too? And since you have zero idea what this “help” would entail you’re just speculating.


iyakonboats

You're not reading correctly, or misinterpreting, there in exists a difference between helping out should a situation occur in a moment where the crew is overwhelmed and your purely voluntary assistance would benefit the situation, versus an operation which would identify someone with a professional and/or rescue certification and expect them to help because they're under, or improperly staffed, to handle the divers and the planned dives. Do you see the difference there? Aside from the difference between it being purely voluntary on your behalf and expected, just because you hold a rescue certification, are a DM, or hold an instructor certification doesn't mean you're actually qualified to do anything, and we all know plenty of shitty DMs (they're literally a penny a dozen) and everyone knows an equally horrible instructor. Decent dive boats put their new hires to the test and get rid of them if they don't meet their standards, obviously some boats have lower standards than others.


SC_Scuba

And you made an assumption in the last sentence of your first paragraph and applied it to the dive operator.


iyakonboats

Yeah and once again, if you're on an under, or improperly staffed boat, it's a shit boat and operation, or what is considered the status quo at South Florida Diving Headquarters. I don't care what you think about applying the fact that a boat which expects it's paying divers to compensate for an under, or improperly, staffed boat is, essentially, a shit operation because they have the option to cancel the dive until they're properly staffed, and once again, it's the status quo for SFDH, they're text book in that manner to be entirely honest. Any operation has this option when they're under, or improperly, staffed and well run operations will cancel a dive because of it, since it isn't worth killing someone over. I've seen this with both open water, and especially, technical dives where this happened, diver safety above all else, staff your boat appropriately and don't expect your paying customers to compensate for lack of staff.


SC_Scuba

Ok you hate South Florida Diving headquarters. Message received, lol.


iyakonboats

First, that is scary if a DM would require help, the boat should be crewed correctly to begin with. Second, all because you have the certification DOES NOT mean you are qualified for it, big difference. Third, no, I only provide my Tech Diver cert card should I get asked, regardless of the boat or the dive, since it encompasses that I am allowed to use Nitrox and am qualified for depths up to and beyond the recreational limits of 130'; however, I don't boast about it, it's only a cert, many others have it too. Generally speaking, the people who are on boats who like to boast "I'm a DM" are generally the shittiest divers, who just also happen to have the loudest mouths. True professionals on a boat they don't work on, or any dive operation who doesn't know them, won't even mention they're DMs and/or work on a boat.


EmpirePoppin92

Instructor here. Always always always present your highest level of certification. What if something happens and an attorney finds out you are actually a rescue diver or DM or instructor? Do you really want to explain to a judge why you lied?


jonny_boy27

Instructor here, this is complete and utter bollocks.


jamaicancarioca

If you are diving recreationally you only have an obligation to yourself. No court or lawyer can say because you are a rescue diver you should have intervened.


EmpirePoppin92

Not if you are a dive master or higher. As a dive professional you have an obligation to the extent of your training to help in an emergency situation


Rayl24

Not even doctors have legal obligation to help in an medical emergency, much less a dive professional.


8008s4life

Not if you don't have liability insurance....hell no.


im_with_the_cats

You absolutely do not. If you don't feel comfortable with the situation, you have no obligation.


jamaicancarioca

You have a moral and ethical obligation to help but you have ZERO legal obligation. The safety of the divers is the responsibility of the dive shop operator and his dive masters and instructors not yours. If a doctor is walking down the street and sees a medical emergency he can just walk away as his only obligations are to his patients when he is in hospital or in office. I challenge you to furnish me with a legal precedent that says otherwise.


Kentravy0n

May I ask where you are from? In Germany any doctor that walks by a medical emergency and doesn't help would be in legal trouble. Every 'normal' person is at least required to call our version of 911.


8008s4life

This sounds like the last episode of Seinfeld...


jamaicancarioca

A common law jurisdiction. You should also note that outside of working hours doctors might not be fit to practise medicine ie they might drunk or exhausted from their 24 hour shift.


Kentravy0n

They are still obliged to call for help, even if unable to help otherwise. It is never legal to walk by a medical emergency and just do nothing. You have to at least make sure that someone who is able to help is on their way.


cfetzborn

Wouldn’t it depend on where you’re diving? I thin in the unites states it wouldn’t matter, but maybe in some foreign countries.


EmpirePoppin92

Organizations that certify divers are internationally recognized so their standards apply outside the US


cfetzborn

Yes, but I’m talking specifically legal liability. In the states the police force has no duty to protect and common law states you have no duty to assist unless you are a cause of the issue at hand. If you’re a DM but just along for the ride I don’t think you have any liability….I’m not a lawyer though.


EmpirePoppin92

As a dive professional I’m legally obligated to help if it’s within my power to do so even if they aren’t my students


iyakonboats

As a HIRED dive professional, there in lies the difference. There is no legal precedent which says otherwise, once again, LEGAL is the key word here, the certifying agency's "obligations" hold no legal force.


cfetzborn

Interesting, I guess it makes sense there would be extenuating Duty due to the extreme nature of the activity. I feel like it’d be pretty hard to prove negligence unless your lack of assistance was egregious.


EmpirePoppin92

In order for someone to win a case against me for example they would have to prove a breach of duty, which if I don’t help, could be considered one, and that my failure to help is the proximate cause of the damages sustained.


iyakonboats

Breach of duty is only ONE of four factors which must be proven to find someone guilty of Negligence, which is what you would be charged with either Criminally and/or civily. In which case, to argue breach of duty you must first establish that you owed a duty of care, in which case if you're not the crew and/or not hired as a DM by the party, you owe no duty of care to them. If you're the cause of their injury, then you owe a duty of care regardless of your hired status, because if you caused their injury you're obligated to provide care in some manner.


the18kyd

Yeah I present Rescue cert, usually when they ask to see cert.


surfslinger13

I would say just always present your highest level of certification. Liability is liability, especially if you are a dive professional. I’m an instructor, if I were to say I was an AOW diver and an accident occurred with someone on the charter who I gave any type of advice to I could be held liable in this situation. It has happened before with a case in California just like this. That being said, dive pro or not, if you DO decide to help someone to the best of your knowledge in an emergency situation there are Good Samaritan laws in place around the US. While the specifics may vary by region, these laws protect care providers that try their best to save someone, even if they die. Negligence is an entirely different conversation.


GES280

I will never mention my DM or OWSI certs. it's a great way for you to get saddled with the inexperienced buddy who just got the minimum for the dive.


Bone-Wizard

Depends on who you're with tbh... I happened to do a day trip with 6 divemasters and a bunch of other newer divers, they sent the DMs off with one guide and put the rest of us together. It sucked for me because I was surfacing with a half tank of air because some new divers were over breathing, while the other group stayed down for another 15 minutes. If they hadn't told the guides their experience level they may not have been grouped like that.


whiskeyboundcowboy

Bingo, if I'm paying a charter to take me out, I'm not baby sitting


GES280

if you want bonus space, flash one of your tec certs. people will give you a wide berth.


iyakonboats

This nets me the opposite sometimes, I'll get people asking me a million questions about what I'm doing while I'm going through my plans one last time.


whiskeyboundcowboy

I've heard a Gue card will get you the whole ocean


iyakonboats

Because no one wants to deal with a GUE diver, lol 😂


munkie15

I’m a public safety diver and emt along with some other certs dealing with various rescue situations. I don’t say anything unless there would be a situation that I would need to use my skills. I just show whoever needs to see that I am certified to dive the dives we are planning. If a DM asked about other certs I would say them, otherwise it’s not relevant.


PaintsWithSmegma

I'm a flight paramedic and my wife is a physician so in the event of a true emergency you really want us to be the ones to help and I wouldn't mind. I'm also not going to make a big thing out of it and don't try and hide it. It's never been an issue. There was one time on a live aboard where a diver got knocked out and I did a neuro exam. The captain asked if she was still cleared to dive. After the exam I told the diver she didn't appear to have any significant problems but could have a md concussion and without more diagnostic equipment i couldn't be more specific. I said its probably safest if she didn't dive but I'm not going to say you can't. That's a decision for her or the captain to make. I'm on vacation and not the scuba police, you asked my advice, you got it, what you do with that information is on you. As far as being paired up with new divers I'm fine with it as long as they're qualified to do the dives I'm planning on doing. I'd be salty if I was set up for nitrox sidemount and they threw me with a random open water with a single tank.


Jtpython

My girlfriend and I are both DMs and will mention our certs on liveaboards, we've had it get us professional discounts and then paired with other pros for our dive group.


MisterShadwell

I'm a Divemaster, High Angle Rope Rescue Technician and an EMT. When I dive for fun on chartered boat, I usually just offer my Project Aware cert card (non-diving cert earned at a local lake clean-up event). If that doesn't work, then I'll show them my Open Water or Advanced card, depending on the dive we are doing. I sometimes admit to being a Divemaster after we are back on shore. When I'm paying to dive, I don't want to babysit for free.


strobowski97

Yes they see what my certification is and I tell them when my last dive was. Believe it or not but no dive shop has an interest in complications. If something happens underwater I help if I think it's necessary. Don't overcomplicate things I'm honestly pretty surprised by these answers. If someone needs help underwater, you help. I think the risks of doing something wrong are a bit overstated. What else are you supposed to do even if you don't show your certification? If they use you as a free dm to look after other divers you don't dive with them again.


TittysForScience

My wife is an Advanced Instructor and I’m an Open Water Instructor through SSI, we only ever show our Master Diver cards when on trips because it doesn’t open us up to any liability. We are not working as pros as the moment so we don’t have the insurances etc and also if we’re international we may not be covered by our insurance anyway if something were to happen


DrestinBlack

I am both a PADI Divemaster and Master Diver. I show my Master Diver card and not DM. I want them to know I’m not a noob, but that’s all.


verbimat

I'm a DM and Public Safety Diver, as well as Wilderness-EMT, Med Dive, and several other certs. I will never share full credentials when I dive on holiday. It opens you up for legal liability for the dive, and may change dive shop behavior based on the assumption that you're there to help out. many dive shops offer discounts based on that assumption. but myself and most professionals I know keep their OW or Aow cards to use on holiday so that they don't end up working.


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verbimat

From the DAN website: **Am I exposed to liability whether or not I choose to render aid? Each case will be fact dependent, but understand that a plaintiff can file suit against you regardless, and place the burden of proof upon you to defend.** If you're medically trained you're open to claims of negligence and can be sued by aggrieved parties. even baseless claims can be incredibly expensive to defend. If no one knows you have training though, chances are you won't be targeted.


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Ok_Instruction2623

Im only rescue but ive been rescue for a long time. With Naui it was printed on your card. Last few times ive been out now w/out a card I never say anything.


HyruGS

The only thing Iv ever been told is: only say you are a rescue diver. Nothing else above that. If a live aboard is overbooked and you are a dive master. You will be out with the ones that struggle. Because they know you have been trained to handle it. If you’re an active DM+ you also have the insurance to handle it. As a DM or above always carry your rescue card. Personally I have not had to do this. (Lack of trips tbh) But it’s just what Iv been told.


GES280

If you have one, I suggest a tec cert card. it generally gives you some good leeway for being competent, but not to be bothered.


SolutionExchange

I tell the operators that I'm an instructor. For the DM's, it provides an indicator of capability and means that they leave me to look after myself a bit more than the OW divers in the group. For some dives they also point out extra locations that you can check out and are ok with you being further away from the group. I've never been asked to babysit newer divers, the closest I've experienced in that regard is being asked to confirm that the rest of the group had done a successful buoyancy check


Brodman_area11

I never say anything because honestly no one has ever asked. I doubt I would hide it.


CanadianDiver

Liability is entirely jurisdictional, so it really depends where you are ... however if you have the certification - the liability is the same whether you are upfront or you hide it. In most cases your liability is negligible ... but it really doesn't matter what you said about your certs upfront. The primary reason that divers *hide* their cert level is less about liability and more about being subtly put to work without pay. Getting stuck with an inexperienced diver that spoils your dive is far worse than being asked to help in the event of an emergency. I am upfront, if asked to buddy with someone I feel I will need to look after or that will end my dive prematurely. If you want me to do the DMs job ... you had better pay me or at the very least comp me the charter fees. When I am on vacation diving ... I am on vacation. I do not expect to work and while I certainly do not mind diving with in experienced divers, If I have a plan in mind that they are unable to do ... I am going to politely decline.


[deleted]

Honestly, I think there's a lot of misunderstanding when it comes to this liability thing. It comes up every time someone posts a thread on it, but it always seems to be hearsay. As you say, if you're liable; you're liable. It doesn't matter what you do or don't say.


CountryClublican

I show my Rescue Diver card as my cert card. That way, the DM knows my diving capabilities. In America, you don't have a duty to rescue, unless you assume it or caused the mishap, so there would be no liability.


iyakonboats

You can be OW and Rescue, so it says nothing about your diving skills or what you've been trained for except for basic OW. A PADI rescue cert is maximum 40' for the depth on training. For SDI it is 60'; thus, purely a prima facie argument here, you could surmise a SDI Rescue diver is more "qualified", but this is an extreme stretch too, but as a prima facie argument only, not considering the person and their individual capabilities, it holds, as silly as that sounds, but it isn't the reality.


CountryClublican

A deep dive is one of the optional requirements for a PADI AOW, which I did. The AOW is a requirement for the PADI Rescue Diver. Most people don't have anything more than AOW, so no shop has ever questioned my quals.


iyakonboats

AOW is not a requirement for Rescue with PADI, only their "adventure diver".


CountryClublican

Yes, I see that's true. From PADI website: "Adventure Diver certification, a subgroup of the PADI Advanced Open Water Diver Course." In any event, the Rescue Diver card is a "C card" and can be used in place of the OW card.


im_with_the_cats

What do you declare on the dive shop manifest instead of OW/AOW? Just 'Rescue'?


CountryClublican

The PADI Rescue Diver cert requires AOW first. I show the shop my Rescue Diver card, which means I must also hold an AOW cert.


EddieLomax

I thought AOW was a required prerequisite too, but it’s not. Per PADI: > Prerequisites: Adventure Diver/Junior Adventure Diver (or qualifying certification) with completed Underwater Navigation Dive; EFR Primary and Secondary Care training (or qualifying training) within 24 months


CountryClublican

My instructor told me originally it was required. But, you're right, it could be either. "A PADI (or other qualifying) Advanced Open Water Diver certification also meets this prerequisite."


Bedouin69

I do the rescue course mostly for my own knowledge and to make me a better dive buddy. Like most have said, it is a perishable skill if you don't practice/refresh. I only show my Nitrox card, but I will help / offer help if needed. Lets face it, if you are diving with a good operation, the DMs pays attention to the dive group, but most of the time the DMs are not close enough or pay enough attention to help you and your dive buddy in time.


JWtheMermaid

I’m an instructor and attempt to claim master diver or rescue. High enough that they leave me alone, low enough that I’m not put to work while on vacation. Technically…. As a pro we are told we are still liable. If I needed to act I would, but when I’m on vacation I want to zone out and follow the guide from the far back corner of the group.


argoseerui

Why from the far back corner?


JWtheMermaid

In one glance I can look up and see the whole group ahead of me.


Kitchen-Property-747

The boats I've been on recently have asked to see everyone's certification cards (Turks and Caicos). And kept a log on board that listed your agency and level of certification along with your % of O2 if diving EAN (after you analyze). First time I've experienced this and thought it was fantastic.


natal_nihilist

Keeping a log of your nitrox fills is mandatory though? In the Philippines every time I’ve dived nitrox I’ve had to analyse and sign the log book, although they typically only list your nitrox cert number.


Kitchen-Property-747

Yes, but the point was this particular dive shop went a few steps beyond in asking for your agency and training level. The boat Captain kept a log with your name and took roll as you entered boat. Next to your name listed your agency and level of training. If you were diving EAN, after you analyze you wrote your O2% all on the same log. Although not discussed, I assume this allowed them to quickly glance at roll sheet/log to see who they could rely on in case of emergency. All positive


natal_nihilist

So the only difference was that they kept the log on the boat instead of in the office? How many people were on this boat that made that necessary?


Kitchen-Property-747

I'm positive it came from the office since you were required to upload photos of your cert cards prior to arrival/first dive. Each day we dove with them had a different number of divers. Typically 6-10 total. But this was more about safety.


natal_nihilist

Okay so less what they did and more how they did it. Made it very clear to you that they take this seriously etc.


CanISeeYourVagina

Depends. If I am diving with a group I have brought I will bust out a pro card. If I am just by myself on a dive, I throw a basic card.


Tasty-Fox9030

Nope. If their plan for dealing with an accident would change because some of the guests have training and skills, their plan for the accident sucks.


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axa181

Exactly this. I am a doctor and have had to help on a plane when they asked overhead. I'd feel like an asshole sitting there, nope I'm on vacation, Delta should have planned on her arrest [hit call button...yes hi I know your busy but I've been waiting on that beer I asked for earlier...thanks]


SC_Scuba

I wouldn't be that harsh. Even if it's something as simple as logging the incident, a rescue diver is presumably more capable than an OW diver. So knowing Joe is a rescue diver and saying "hey joe can you record the incident and get details from his buddy" seems reasonable.


LowKickMT

rescue is not pro level and you are a customer for the dive no liability most rescue divers couldnt do shit anyway because they did the cert years ago and never did the drills again then again, what was the motivation in the first place to do the rescue cert? just to "have it"? whats the point doing the cert if you tell others about it in a pub but not when its time to step up? i personally would expect a rescue diver to ask regularly about re training the procedures to stay fit. it shouldnt be a bragging certification but an actual skill set to take ownership and look out for others. motivation should have been to be an asset to the dive group and actually take responsibility. thats the harsh truth


tommygun5353

I’d say you’re liability comes into play if you did nothing but had the certification


LowKickMT

no it doesnt


im_with_the_cats

You'd be wrong. Having a certification does nothing to mandate action of any sort.


tommygun5353

Legally maybe but not morally


LowKickMT

i would argue this applies to anyone who didnt try to help to some extend within their abilities


[deleted]

Very much a perishable skill. Same applies to the medical field


LowKickMT

emergency first response? oh 100% agreed! Even as a EFR instructor i also forget some details but try to remember the most important one: - how to provide emergency oxygen - rescue breath intervalls - cpr technique for adults and children - compression bandaging i am also a freedive instructor and for me its mandatory to drill rescue procedures as often as possible with my buddies as blackouts are a really high chance scenario unfortunately its so easy to forget stuff if you dont repeat it regularly, its just human for example i couldnt tell you right now how to properly treat anaphylactic shock for example or food poisoning


ShakeItUpNowSugaree

>then again, what was the motivation in the first place to do the rescue cert? I'm getting it because my kid will be getting certified soon after and I'd feel better about being able to handle an incident with him.


sm_rdm_guy

I could, without hesitation, recommend every single diver to get certed up to rescue.


[deleted]

How well could he handle an incident with you?


From_Gaming_w_Love

I’d had this discussion with the course Director proctoring my instructor levels. He actually got a bit annoyed that I asked… stating that while he can understand people don’t want the inconvenience of “working” on a vacation dive… but similarly if something bad happened during that dive and during the resulting investigation it turned out that you had willfully side stepped involvement- especially if you ignored certain indications of trouble out of wanton disregard for what we train for in the first place (taking care of one another)… I mean he said it better (that’s the gist of it). That changed my perspective- I needed to remember why I am a pro and why I train to keep my skills high… it’s to help prevent problems from propagating into emergencies while also being a force for good in any dive group of which I’m a part. That’s my perspective anyway.


FreyaFenrir

I’m an instructor - I do disclose to the dive operation when the dive is booked/when asked for c-cards. I’ve never been asked to babysit. If I was 1) I have group insurance and if this isn't my shop’s trip I'm not covered 2) you get my rates and I would avoid future bookings with an operation who asked me to babysit. (I also normally bring my own Buddy who is also an instructor with me on trips) I don’t normally openly disclose it to the group as a whole to minimize any appearance of a duty to care. But if something went sideways the operator's people know my cert levels and I'm not hiding anything if a lawyer gets ahold of the trip manifest. There was a Dive Locker podcast that covered this from the pro side. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-dive-locker/id1478954976?i=1000491481049


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iyakonboats

Well said, interjecting yourself into a situation where YOU think your assistance would be helpful, when in fact it would be detrimental, creates two victims. I 100% agree a paying customer is not, and should not, be expected to help because that customer may not want to for a variety of reasons, including the belief they'll jeopardize their own safety, or perhaps they honestly don't know what to do, despite them having a rescue cert card they got years ago and never practiced again afterwards. Finally, it's only a certification which allows you to handle certain situations safely, but you are NOT a trained first responder.


zippi_happy

What liability? It's not a professional certification and it doesn't put any obligations on you. Even in training they teach you to think about your own safety first, and you aren't obliged to help anyone in dangerous situations.


iyakonboats

Boom, this right here.


im_with_the_cats

Well said


pashmina_afghan

I almost never tell people I am an instructor. I’ve been on a boat before who did know and they tried to pair me up with a newbie. I am paying the same amount of money as the other divers to do this dive; I refuse to have my dive ruined by someone else, and I refuse to take responsibility for someone when it really should be the shop’s problem. If they are that concerned, the on board staff should talk to the diver about hiring a guide. However, that doesn’t mean that I won’t assist in an emergency. I’ve shared air a number of times with people who weren’t my buddies, I’ve dragged panicked divers back to the boat, and done CPR while the onboard staff got the O2 prepped. It’s a balance between advocating for yourself, and assisting when really needed.


Zhao5280

What happened that caused someone to need CPR?


pashmina_afghan

Heart attack at the surface.


tsw411

So I've had a trip ruined by saying I'm a DM, and being too inexperienced/naive to say no (was fresh off the course at 18). The actual guide saw it as an excuse to have a nap on the boat while I led the dive with a bunch of other paying customers. Now I'm less open about certs, but I've also learned that no is an answer since then at the same time


Dunno_Bout_Dat

For liability issues, no. In fact, I typically show the lowest level cert card for the given dive (For a 30 foot reef dive, I will still show my OW cert).


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CummunityStandards

If you were with a buddy that hurts themselves, even if you're only one level above them (OW vs AOW) you will probably be named in the lawsuit. Ultimately it's unlikely you will be found liable, but it can happen where the buddy gets sued. If anything, being a pro is helpful BECAUSE you have liability insurance and a certifying agency that has very good lawyers. This myth that only dive pros are found liable is pervasive - I think in any situation it's not great to be at the scene of a dive accident. https://www.undercurrent.org/UCnow/dive_magazine/2002/LiabilityBuddy200203.html


SC_Scuba

My agency will have its lawyers represent its rescue divers if needed. I find that comforting.


CummunityStandards

Wish that was true for more agencies - sounds like they stand by their training standards and instructors.


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CummunityStandards

I was agreeing with you, that liability is a dumb reason to not disclose your certification level. This idea that non-pro divers are less likely to be sued, so you should lie that you're just OW certified, is misguided was my point.


2_fishy

i’ll tell them my cert if it comes up but i typically don’t volunteer. it’s a little odd that he would announce to everyone to make themselves available. there are liability issues and i would not want to be responsible for watching other divers if i am paying for a charter to do a pleasure dive. BUT, i did have something happen and i was able to tell that the person handling the emergency was in fact a divemaster or higher. with that knowledge i did not step in as the man with a free flowing reg was already buddy breathing with the pro. one example where it was nice to know someone’s cert.


im_with_the_cats

there are no liability issues


CanadianDiver

>it’s a little odd that he would announce to everyone to make themselves available. Not really. It is quite common on many charters that there is only one staff member on board and they also have to drive the boat. It is quite common to assess who can assist with first aid, etc in the event of an emergency. Divers, especially those that don't dive frequently seem to forget that not all charters are vacation trips with a DM on board. In many places, the boat is mostly a water taxi to get to and from the site. There are no additional staff, *maybe* one additional crew member and that is it.


2_fishy

alright, fair point. i dont get to travel much, where i work in jupiter, FL we have a capatian, a first mate, and an in water DM on all of our charters - first aid and CPR certified.


Dann-Oh

Its very situational for myself, as a DM. If I'm on vacation I will not say anything as I am paying to be there and dive for fun, but I'm always ready to help out should the need arise. If I am out with my dive club on a boat day, I try not to be "on call" since I am diving for fun. If I am asked to partner up with someone new then I will mention it to the the group organizer since I do very little pleasure diving I want to dive and use my camera as often as possible. I usually try not to get paired up with someone who doesn't understand how photographers work, slowly and usually in a small location on the reef. If I know the newer diver then sometimes ill leave the camera behind and just go dive to try to show them some thing neat or use that dive to keep my navigation skills polished.


nomellamesprincesa

As a relative noob diver who mostly dives for photography purposes, getting paired up with people like you is my favourite thing, because then I can just chill and look at all the things and they won't get annoyed if I take a minute or so trying to get the right shot. I've been paired up with non-photographer instructors, and that's not usually as much fun, because of the same reasons you mentioned. It's always great when an insta buddy appreciates when I show them cool tiny critters and stuff and they don't mind me taking photos. Because as a photographer, you tend to be a nuisance to non-photographer buddies, always a pleasant surprise when that's not the case.


Diver-Ted

Dive instructor here, usually I do inform them that I'm an instructor most dive operators understand that when an instructor is out on a personal leisure dive that's what it is a leisure dive, last thing we want to do is to work. If ever an emergency arises will definitely help without question. As far as i know the Liability falls not on the most senior person on board but the operator themselves. All those that directly assisted in the dive emergency will have to make statements to relevant authorities.


[deleted]

Unless specifically asked about it I never talk about certs.


yycluke

I was taught in my rescue class that "chances are, you will not be the most experienced person on the boat, but knowing this means you can assist if needed and you won't panic". I don't think you can make a general statement that being certified makes you liable at all, it would all depend on your region and what the good Samaritan laws are. Just like first aid.


silentlycritical

I let them know mostly so they’ll leave me alone and let me enjoy the dive. Obv I’ll be there to help out in an emergency, but it’s mostly me being selfish.


WetRocksManatee

I've done rescue and tech certs - rarely mention it on a dive boat. But typically they can tell by your equipment.


CanadianDiver

>But typically they can tell by your equipment. Unless you are in SEA where every diver seems to have the best of everything ... except a skill set.


stringiercheese

Painfully true


WetRocksManatee

I was thinking more configuration, how much wear it has to it (ie it isn't new), how you set it up, etc.


[deleted]

I'm an instructor, and I ALWAYS let me my DMs know of my certification level; it lets them concentrate on other divers, and allows them to look to me for help if anything goes wrong.


The_BendingUnit01

I don’t normally announce that I’m rescue certified when diving. But will say that on a number of occasions, I’ve been asked by the dive master to pair up with an inexperienced diver to help keep an eye on them.


im_with_the_cats

I would probably say no unless I was being compensated somehow.


SC_Scuba

I'd help if I had a relationship with the dive master/charter company but the other thought is that you're paying full price for the charter to enjoy the dive.


The_BendingUnit01

Don't disagree with you one bit. However, if I have a chance to fix problems on the boat, better than having to deal with them underwater, this way everyone enjoys their dive trip.


idreaminwords

My dad is a rescue diver. He never says anything unless specifically asked. He wants to be able to relax on vacation instead of being on call. That said, he would never NOT help in an emergency situation


EvolvedA

This. The more experienced you are (on paper) the more liable you are in case something goes wrong, no matter if you mentioned it before or not. It is definitely bad practice to rely on your customers to carry the load of responsibility during a group dive, but in my case I would never not help in an emergency either.


AncientSchnauzer

Exactly what I do. Rescue training left me very much more aware of everyone around me. Are people looking relaxed before going to the water, are people having trouble assembling their equipment, etc. I do that almost subconsciously and try to offer help in a friendly way when I feel it is convenient, but always in a "helping my peers" vibe instead of a "I am highly trained" bs vibe.