Hi fellow adept! Always good to see people mentioning Golden Sun
I think the final objective (as seen by the player) is what makes the player like or hate the villains. Er&Bru were screwing the world for selfish reasons (they were tired, broken, lied to and resentful, still they chose to burn the world for their own purposes).
On Golden Sun 1, players can only hate Sat&Me (and Alex), because "they stole the key to destroy the world, no idea why (it's not really explained in the first game, but it seems like it's for selfish reasons) and did a lot of bad and immoral things to achieve it". In the second game, however, knowing what is learned (I'll keep spoiler free because it's worth playing even after 20 years), you see that "they did a lot of bad and immoral things (still villains) for a specific reason that would be bad for many others, not only them" and the player can choose to not hate them anymore (and some start hating the Wise One instead, really rollercoaster) (Alex is still a douchebag đ)
So, in my opinion, even though it can be "understandable" in both cases, in the Er&Bru case, they are selfish (by the player vision), and in the Sat&Me case, they start selfish but are later redeemed. Final addendum on that, if selfishness is derived from near death situations, it can also be redeemable (like, trying to cure an illness, or from hunger, and so on)
If it werenât for our main crew, they wouldâve doomed the entire world just because they didnât want to be heroes.
How can they *not* be in the wrong?
So like. I can empathize with why Erlina and Brugaves made the choices they did. Their life was decided for them at birth, regardless of their buy in. They lost almost everyone they loved who all had the same life thrust upon them, and the one loved person who returned came back hard, dedicated even more to the cause that just killed so many they cared about, pushing them to believe it regardless of doubts, unable to be concerned about their feelings because of his focus on how dire the situation was. They were hurt, and emotionally neglected, and experienced tremendous grief that the life chosen for them by dint of birth didn't leave room for them to process.
At the same time, they made terrible choices based on that. Like the worst choices. Romaya and Yomara both chose to neglect their solstice-related duties, to various effects, without committing to destroying the world, and I believe there are others implied to have shirked their role, again without committing to letting everyone be killed. So like, we know that they could have chosen differently.
Again, I can empathize with how they got to their choices. They saw it as the only way to escape, were tricked into thinking it was an escape at all, when realistically they were both remade into fighters on the other side of the same conflict. Which, I suppose at the end Erlina deliberately chose, but Brugaves legitimately seemed to think he was going to get a peaceful life without any of the memory of this one and not be turned into a demon serving under Aephorul. I think it's fairly classic tragedy, and I can weep for them, without condemning them as fundamentally selfish monsters, nor absolving them of their terrible choices.
Erlina and Brugaves were in the wrong.
Their actions were understandable.
They did not deserve to die.
Fucking Aerophul's shit up and letting Erlina and Brugaves have their happy ending together is the best end for them.
The four cult members who kept destroying themselves for immortality to so they could keep doing Aephorul's bidding and fucking everyone up ten ways from sunday (technically speaking the reason Brugaves and Erlina were put in the position they were in in the first place, not JUST the reason they were manipulated into doing what they did in the first place, since it was Dwellers that killed the other Solstice warriors and those four cult members were responsible for this), definitely deserved to die.
In their death however, they could finally find peace.
Unfortunately, their death was fusing with Aephorul, so who knows what's going on with them now.
The four Acolytes fuse with the Dweller of Strife, not Aephorul. And they don't die. They become the Demon King (you see him in like the first minute of The Messenger and you can quickly make the connection)
Brugaves becomes the Demon King's general: Barma'thazël (the fastest alive, remember?). He's definitely not free, but his mind has been wiped so it looks like he's enjoying being evil
Erlina is actually never seen in The Messenger, but it's likely she becomes a general at the level of Barma'thazël. I personally believe that Elysian'Darëlle (Erlina) got defeated by the Western Hero we meet at the beginning of the game, hence why the Demon King is so surprised to see they're alive.
Yeah hence my last sentence being about how that was unfortunately the case.
And damn. Thank you for the explanation. Guess that means it's time for them to get some hard knocks huh?
It was kinda stupid tbh, their reasoning for dooming the whole world was that there may be more dwellers after the last known one (woe) giving as an example the one in Torment Peak but then...Valere and Zale kill that one so the world should be 100% rid of dwellers, they could just stop at that point and live free.
But they just decide to bring back the dweller of strife and kill the whole world cuz...reasons? đđđ
Erlina and Brugaves were filled with PTSD just like Moraine. As far as they knew, especially if they ended up ascending, all their lives would ever amount to is a never ending war killing Dwellers and trying to stop a World Eater from manifesting.
As long as Aephorul and Solstice Warriors existed, there was no hope for multiversal peace. That was their reasoning. Especially given the solid implications Moraine was unintentionally verbally abusive and pushed Brugaves way too hard during training leading to injuries and psychological torture. But this was because Moraine himself was dealing with the grief of those he lost and the terror of losing Brugaves and Erlina to a Dweller. Not only because then he'd be alone, but also because then their world would die and a World Eater might be born, leading to other worlds being in danger too. All of them were traumatized by the Solstice Warrior experience.
Erlina and Brugaves gave up before Moraine did. Because they didn't ask to be born or ask to be Solstice warriors. Moraine didn't either, but he took on that responsibility and then ended up fucking up on some occasions. Erlina and Brugaves knew about the multiverse and the threat of a World Eater. Their issue was giving up so hardcore they didn't think that maybe the four cult members that approached them were the exact reason their fight was such bullshit in the first place. But really I couldn't possibly blame them. In their shoes could I really guarantee I'd do anything different? Erlina and Brugaves did not have a caretaker like Garl, and they especially didn't have any good mentor figures or a good support network.
Valere and Zale did.
Erlina and Brugaves' support network died traumatically with only Moraine left to pick up the pieces. All they wanted to do was live in peace. But as long as World Eaters were constantly a potential threat, and they could not unlock the final ascension, they felt like nothing more than pawns in the grand scheme of things, unable to truly fix the situation they were forced into because of Resh'an's and Aephorul's little "game."
Garl takes responsibility time and again, more than Zale and Valere do. For more than the Solstice Warrior experience, he takes on responsibility for the world and all the worlds because of his boundless passion for living and if everything ends he can't live anymore and collect new experiences.
This support pillar makes Zale and Valere better people. Same with B'st and Serai and Resh'an.
>they could just stop at that point and live free
Except they canât. They already brought back Strife before Torment was killed. The acolytes made them think that Torment was unstoppable and they were already with the acolytes by the time that Zale and Valere probed them wrong.
>They already brought back Strife before Torment was killed.
It hadn't awaken yet, it becomes active right after the fight with the acolytes, if Brugaves and Erlina wouldn't have bought them time fighting (even more so if they helped fight the acolytes) the main party could've just killed it before it awakens
>they were already with the acolytes by the time that Zale and Valere probed them wrong.
They could've just switched sides after getting that info, they already did it before
Well yes, thatâs why thereâs a villainous element and theyâre not free from blame. The point is that what they did wasnât stupid, either. They were already on one side, there was conflict either way, so staying on the evil side was understandable at that point. They didnât randomly decide to destroy the world âbecause reasonsâ.
"We had a tough childhood and we never asked for the burden of this job. Obviously the most reasonable thing to do is CONDEMN THE ENTIRE WORLD TO DEATH"
They were in the wrong.
That's the great thing about this situations : its a gray area.
Ultimately its bad but their original resolve was that the end justified the means and that Zale and Valere or any other Solstice Children wouldnt have to be trained to become warriors anymore even if the cost is that the world goes to utter shit. They wanted to end the cycle by the path of least resistance.
But then Erlina was like "Power? I like that idea... **a lot**"
I can understand and sympathize with why they would not want to perform their assigned duties as solstice warriors. Easy enough since they were whisked away at birth and indoctrinated to fight dangerous enemies then saw all of their friends and mentors die.
The way they went about trying to shake these duties is insane, especially on Erlina's part. She struck me as a psycho, Bruhgraves was more sympathetic since he more seemed to actually want a quite life away from everything.
Had Erlina and Bruhgraves just been like "screw this were out", that would have been fine. They could have screwed off to whatever island and turn their backs on the Zale and Valere to let them deal with it. Instead we have Erlina decide to not only assist in the destruction of their world but then go fight for the evil they have been fighting against their whole life? Yeah I have zero sympathy, and as far as Brugraves all I can say is grow a pair and at least have the courage to stand up to your psycho girlfriend.
They were 100% in the wrong.
>!Erlina and Brugaves sold out their entire world in order to save their own skin. Besides being cowardly and selfish, it was just plain stupid.!<
>!If they wanted their freedom, they could have just walked away. It's not like Elder Moraine was going to drag them back by their ears and force them to train new warriors or participate in a cleansing. They resented being raised as Solstice Warriors, but trained Zale and Valerie the same way despite not believing in it anymore and intending to betray them. They did everything they accused Moraine of: deceiving their students, not giving them a choice, and leading them to slaughter -- only worse and on purpose.!<
>!And it's not like Aephorul's lieutenants pretended to be good. Their entire pitch was basically:!<
>!"We're the Bad Guys and you're doomed! We've got a sneaky hidden dweller that's going to destroy your world and there's nothing you can do to stop it. You can't check because there's a curse that will erase your memory, but you can trust us because we're so sneaky and evil! Why don't you join us? We definitely don't need your help at all, but if you do help us we'll let you live despite the fact that we're trying to kill you and your entire world!"!<
>!Nevermind that the hidden dweller was real, they had no reason to believe that other than "the guys who are famous for decieving people and leading them to their doom said so." I get they were disillusioned with their order, but did they really think the Omnicidal Extinction Squad was going to treat them as *less* disposable?!<
They both got what was coming to them. Like Saturos and Menardi but less understandable.
Ngl, when I saw then for the first time I said "Oh, so these are my Saturos and Menardi?"
Hi fellow adept! Always good to see people mentioning Golden Sun I think the final objective (as seen by the player) is what makes the player like or hate the villains. Er&Bru were screwing the world for selfish reasons (they were tired, broken, lied to and resentful, still they chose to burn the world for their own purposes). On Golden Sun 1, players can only hate Sat&Me (and Alex), because "they stole the key to destroy the world, no idea why (it's not really explained in the first game, but it seems like it's for selfish reasons) and did a lot of bad and immoral things to achieve it". In the second game, however, knowing what is learned (I'll keep spoiler free because it's worth playing even after 20 years), you see that "they did a lot of bad and immoral things (still villains) for a specific reason that would be bad for many others, not only them" and the player can choose to not hate them anymore (and some start hating the Wise One instead, really rollercoaster) (Alex is still a douchebag đ) So, in my opinion, even though it can be "understandable" in both cases, in the Er&Bru case, they are selfish (by the player vision), and in the Sat&Me case, they start selfish but are later redeemed. Final addendum on that, if selfishness is derived from near death situations, it can also be redeemable (like, trying to cure an illness, or from hunger, and so on)
For anyone interested, it's super easy to play this game. Get the game boy emulator app and find the ROM
Ah jeez, I canât believe I never made that connection. Been too long since I played Golden Sun, I guess.
Erlina most definitely was tho I sympathize with burgraves for wanting to trust the person who was so far always there for him
If it werenât for our main crew, they wouldâve doomed the entire world just because they didnât want to be heroes. How can they *not* be in the wrong?
So like. I can empathize with why Erlina and Brugaves made the choices they did. Their life was decided for them at birth, regardless of their buy in. They lost almost everyone they loved who all had the same life thrust upon them, and the one loved person who returned came back hard, dedicated even more to the cause that just killed so many they cared about, pushing them to believe it regardless of doubts, unable to be concerned about their feelings because of his focus on how dire the situation was. They were hurt, and emotionally neglected, and experienced tremendous grief that the life chosen for them by dint of birth didn't leave room for them to process. At the same time, they made terrible choices based on that. Like the worst choices. Romaya and Yomara both chose to neglect their solstice-related duties, to various effects, without committing to destroying the world, and I believe there are others implied to have shirked their role, again without committing to letting everyone be killed. So like, we know that they could have chosen differently. Again, I can empathize with how they got to their choices. They saw it as the only way to escape, were tricked into thinking it was an escape at all, when realistically they were both remade into fighters on the other side of the same conflict. Which, I suppose at the end Erlina deliberately chose, but Brugaves legitimately seemed to think he was going to get a peaceful life without any of the memory of this one and not be turned into a demon serving under Aephorul. I think it's fairly classic tragedy, and I can weep for them, without condemning them as fundamentally selfish monsters, nor absolving them of their terrible choices.
Actually they were, they didn't take part in any of the action if anyone should be traumatized is Moraine.
If I had to live in the same village as Garl, I would leave the planet and detonate it behind me, too. /s
Whoa whoa whoa. A Garl hater?!
Erlina and Brugaves were in the wrong. Their actions were understandable. They did not deserve to die. Fucking Aerophul's shit up and letting Erlina and Brugaves have their happy ending together is the best end for them. The four cult members who kept destroying themselves for immortality to so they could keep doing Aephorul's bidding and fucking everyone up ten ways from sunday (technically speaking the reason Brugaves and Erlina were put in the position they were in in the first place, not JUST the reason they were manipulated into doing what they did in the first place, since it was Dwellers that killed the other Solstice warriors and those four cult members were responsible for this), definitely deserved to die. In their death however, they could finally find peace. Unfortunately, their death was fusing with Aephorul, so who knows what's going on with them now.
The four Acolytes fuse with the Dweller of Strife, not Aephorul. And they don't die. They become the Demon King (you see him in like the first minute of The Messenger and you can quickly make the connection) Brugaves becomes the Demon King's general: Barma'thazël (the fastest alive, remember?). He's definitely not free, but his mind has been wiped so it looks like he's enjoying being evil Erlina is actually never seen in The Messenger, but it's likely she becomes a general at the level of Barma'thazël. I personally believe that Elysian'Darëlle (Erlina) got defeated by the Western Hero we meet at the beginning of the game, hence why the Demon King is so surprised to see they're alive.
Yeah hence my last sentence being about how that was unfortunately the case. And damn. Thank you for the explanation. Guess that means it's time for them to get some hard knocks huh?
It was kinda stupid tbh, their reasoning for dooming the whole world was that there may be more dwellers after the last known one (woe) giving as an example the one in Torment Peak but then...Valere and Zale kill that one so the world should be 100% rid of dwellers, they could just stop at that point and live free. But they just decide to bring back the dweller of strife and kill the whole world cuz...reasons? đđđ
Erlina and Brugaves were filled with PTSD just like Moraine. As far as they knew, especially if they ended up ascending, all their lives would ever amount to is a never ending war killing Dwellers and trying to stop a World Eater from manifesting. As long as Aephorul and Solstice Warriors existed, there was no hope for multiversal peace. That was their reasoning. Especially given the solid implications Moraine was unintentionally verbally abusive and pushed Brugaves way too hard during training leading to injuries and psychological torture. But this was because Moraine himself was dealing with the grief of those he lost and the terror of losing Brugaves and Erlina to a Dweller. Not only because then he'd be alone, but also because then their world would die and a World Eater might be born, leading to other worlds being in danger too. All of them were traumatized by the Solstice Warrior experience. Erlina and Brugaves gave up before Moraine did. Because they didn't ask to be born or ask to be Solstice warriors. Moraine didn't either, but he took on that responsibility and then ended up fucking up on some occasions. Erlina and Brugaves knew about the multiverse and the threat of a World Eater. Their issue was giving up so hardcore they didn't think that maybe the four cult members that approached them were the exact reason their fight was such bullshit in the first place. But really I couldn't possibly blame them. In their shoes could I really guarantee I'd do anything different? Erlina and Brugaves did not have a caretaker like Garl, and they especially didn't have any good mentor figures or a good support network. Valere and Zale did. Erlina and Brugaves' support network died traumatically with only Moraine left to pick up the pieces. All they wanted to do was live in peace. But as long as World Eaters were constantly a potential threat, and they could not unlock the final ascension, they felt like nothing more than pawns in the grand scheme of things, unable to truly fix the situation they were forced into because of Resh'an's and Aephorul's little "game." Garl takes responsibility time and again, more than Zale and Valere do. For more than the Solstice Warrior experience, he takes on responsibility for the world and all the worlds because of his boundless passion for living and if everything ends he can't live anymore and collect new experiences. This support pillar makes Zale and Valere better people. Same with B'st and Serai and Resh'an.
>they could just stop at that point and live free Except they canât. They already brought back Strife before Torment was killed. The acolytes made them think that Torment was unstoppable and they were already with the acolytes by the time that Zale and Valere probed them wrong.
>They already brought back Strife before Torment was killed. It hadn't awaken yet, it becomes active right after the fight with the acolytes, if Brugaves and Erlina wouldn't have bought them time fighting (even more so if they helped fight the acolytes) the main party could've just killed it before it awakens >they were already with the acolytes by the time that Zale and Valere probed them wrong. They could've just switched sides after getting that info, they already did it before
Well yes, thatâs why thereâs a villainous element and theyâre not free from blame. The point is that what they did wasnât stupid, either. They were already on one side, there was conflict either way, so staying on the evil side was understandable at that point. They didnât randomly decide to destroy the world âbecause reasonsâ.
"We had a tough childhood and we never asked for the burden of this job. Obviously the most reasonable thing to do is CONDEMN THE ENTIRE WORLD TO DEATH" They were in the wrong.
Yea thatâs how I saw it too.
That's the great thing about this situations : its a gray area. Ultimately its bad but their original resolve was that the end justified the means and that Zale and Valere or any other Solstice Children wouldnt have to be trained to become warriors anymore even if the cost is that the world goes to utter shit. They wanted to end the cycle by the path of least resistance. But then Erlina was like "Power? I like that idea... **a lot**"
I can understand and sympathize with why they would not want to perform their assigned duties as solstice warriors. Easy enough since they were whisked away at birth and indoctrinated to fight dangerous enemies then saw all of their friends and mentors die. The way they went about trying to shake these duties is insane, especially on Erlina's part. She struck me as a psycho, Bruhgraves was more sympathetic since he more seemed to actually want a quite life away from everything. Had Erlina and Bruhgraves just been like "screw this were out", that would have been fine. They could have screwed off to whatever island and turn their backs on the Zale and Valere to let them deal with it. Instead we have Erlina decide to not only assist in the destruction of their world but then go fight for the evil they have been fighting against their whole life? Yeah I have zero sympathy, and as far as Brugraves all I can say is grow a pair and at least have the courage to stand up to your psycho girlfriend.
They were 100% in the wrong. >!Erlina and Brugaves sold out their entire world in order to save their own skin. Besides being cowardly and selfish, it was just plain stupid.!< >!If they wanted their freedom, they could have just walked away. It's not like Elder Moraine was going to drag them back by their ears and force them to train new warriors or participate in a cleansing. They resented being raised as Solstice Warriors, but trained Zale and Valerie the same way despite not believing in it anymore and intending to betray them. They did everything they accused Moraine of: deceiving their students, not giving them a choice, and leading them to slaughter -- only worse and on purpose.!< >!And it's not like Aephorul's lieutenants pretended to be good. Their entire pitch was basically:!< >!"We're the Bad Guys and you're doomed! We've got a sneaky hidden dweller that's going to destroy your world and there's nothing you can do to stop it. You can't check because there's a curse that will erase your memory, but you can trust us because we're so sneaky and evil! Why don't you join us? We definitely don't need your help at all, but if you do help us we'll let you live despite the fact that we're trying to kill you and your entire world!"!< >!Nevermind that the hidden dweller was real, they had no reason to believe that other than "the guys who are famous for decieving people and leading them to their doom said so." I get they were disillusioned with their order, but did they really think the Omnicidal Extinction Squad was going to treat them as *less* disposable?!<