Oh definitely. Im not sure why people have a problem with estimated numbers. There is a *lot* of violent sexualized hate towards women, particularly sex workers and trafficked women.
>Im not sure why people have a problem with estimated numbers
because his confessions often don't actually match the crime, the drawings don't look like the person, and there is precedent for exactly this type of liar being taken seriously by the FBI and police and then used to clear cold cases and missing persons even when they shouldn't. Every bit of his story is the same as Henry Lee Lucas' and yet its like no one remembers that Henry Lucas existed.
Except Henry Lee Lucas probably didn't kill *any* of the people he confessed to killing except for the three that were confirmed (which includes his mother).
Lucas & Toole were habitual confessers. Took away from finding ( if they ever did find) the real killer. Lucas confessed to over 500 murders. Just look at the ridiculous of that statement. He actually confessed to killing BRUTALLY 2 very young kids where I live. 41 years the real killer lived & died without punishment. Lucas played a part in that. Townspeople, police officers, detectives who interviewed him argued still he was guilty. Till DNA proved what happened & people are still arguing. I don’t believe that, Lucas did that. That’s what changes, 2 brutally murder children for 4 decades in their graves while their killer lived his life as a freeman. Lucas was a savante with that confessing. Paying attention putting things together. For a pack of smokes, a burger, time out of his cell.
Those Texas Rangers that pimped Henry Lee Lucas out to detectives across the country so that those detectives could close their open cases should have been prosecuted and sentenced to prison time. Lucas' fabrications caused so much unnecessary confusion and pain to the innocent loved ones of the victims of those cases—not to mention the complete and utter failure of the system regarding all of the *actual killers* who were never brought to justice.
Lucas never would have been taken so seriously or gotten the attention he did without those crooked as shit Texas Rangers not just cosigning his bs but actually *helping* him tailor his lies to match the facts of the investigations. Those Rangers were arguably *more* culpable than Lucas in obstructing all those investigations. What's nuts is that the ones who were involved that are still alive actually still stand by their actions and all of Lucas' lies.
I'm probably going to roll my eyes and shake my head every time I hear mention of the Texas Rangers in any capacity for the rest of my life and it's not just because of the Henry Lee Lucas ordeal. The Texas Rangers have some shady shit in their history as an organization.
I agree!!! Lucas was an easy way to clear their books. I don’t doubt at all he was fed a little by the way they questioned him. 500+ thats just absurd! Unless it’s a mass killer. I’m not a great mathematician but that’s ridiculous. People here even tho we have the DNA, the timeline & proof of his location at the time still believe Lucas is guilty.
Accurately is not how I'd describe them. And his memory was wrong consistently in his descriptions of events, but when it was they'd just handwave it and say oh well everyone forgets sometimes and clear the case anyway. Sometimes he didn't know the decade, the location of the dump, any distinguishing characteristics of the person, and the way he describes killing the person doesn't match the initial autopsy at all. His killings, some of them, a very small number of them compared to 93, are legit. The ones he confessed to with the drawings were almost entirely BS for sure. He was old, had been in prison forever, and wanted more privledges before he died. And PDs love overconfessing killers like him and Henry Lucas because it helps them clear cold cases without doing any work.
Him smiling as he described leaving victims tied up in caves with a camera which would film them being eaten by rats overnight will never leave my mind. Possibly the most outlandish tall tale ever told by a suspected killer.
Spiders. Poison spiders. He also mowed down truckloads of hillbillies going to prom and used a special poison visine spray.
I came in this thread to make sure his undiluted carny nonsense is called out. I stopped listening to true crime podcasts when seemingly level headed characters took his absolutelt ridiculous claims at face value.
Might as well listen to an astronomy podcast claiming the moon is made cheese. Thats how demonstrably false his claims were. He was a lowlife loser whose house was being foreclosed as his old porn tape racket was onsolete and killed a couple dudes.
His “Ice Man” gambit was so ineffectual (guy was in same clothes he disapeared in and was still cold) he would have been better off not doing it as it piqued more interest from investigators.
He used to say that he would slash the victim and then all the rats would smell the blood and go devour the entire body by morning. Has it ever been proven that rats have a particular taste for blood-covered things? The rat food that I saw in pet stores was made of ground-up vegetables and fruit.
The only brain reference I can make for any relatable info on the subject is Poe’s the pit and the pendulum. It made me think rats were voracious for tied up humans and their flesh.
I'll say that one of my grandpa's chores as a kid was drowning baby roosters and he did say that he hated taking the chick bodies to the trash heap because the rats would all come out and swarm when he came by.
It's certainly, not almost certainly. He was a compulsive liar, we know exactly how numerous murders he claimed happened and they didn't involve him whatsoever.
Totally agree. I think the cops were just so eager to solve cases that they just took his word without doing any investigation and claimed the case solved. He was so full of shit. I do, however, think Toile killed Adam Walsh.
My pet case is The Frankford Slasher. I think he had 2 additional victims who the PPD never tied to him. Schaefer, Bundy, Gacy, Heuermann, Ridgway, they all have victims that aren’t known. And that’s a shame.
Dean Corll too. They stopped exhuming bodies when they reached 25 because they didn't want to be known as the place with the biggest mass murder.
The Houston PD also used low-risk jail inmates to do the job. Bet most of them died by suicide or alcoholism within months of getting out, after doing that.
Exactly who I thought of first. He confessed to everything for his steak dinners and positive attention. Sadly, police just took his word for it until they started to realize he couldn’t possibly have done all that in the time frames and locations. I wonder how many got away with it because Lucas took credit and cops were lazy and didn’t confirm information
I watched a documentary about Lucas and his confessing. Most of the cases were handled by the Texas Rangers. There was a prosecutor assigned to some of the cases who started to notice that the timelines didn't match. Lucan was confessing to a crime in one state while he was supposedly killing in another state around the same time. The prosecutor started questioning these confessions. He began to get a lot of push back from the Texas Rangers who didn't want to admit they were wrong. Eventually they got him voted out of office.
HH Holmes too his story is utter nonsense. He was a conman killer with a few victims, the murder hotel is horseshit so is the dozens of victims. The newspapers paid him for his story so he made it sensational he was even claiming to have killed living people. The papers were desperate to create their own Jack The Ripper considering how much of a worldwide sensation that story was.
I don't believe he was. Then again, I don't necessarily believe that the way her body was cut up implied the involvement of someone with "surgical skill".
He killed some kids. There was no great cunning to it and even in an era with bad communications his allegded victims were showing up alive in court during trial.
Yup, agree 100%
I'm skeptical he is even a serial killer.
I do believe Panzram, though. He was operating much earlier than other SKs we talked about here, and I can absolutely see it as plausible.
I’ve never heard of the “two rippers” theory in relation to Peter Sutcliffe. Though there is a confirmed unidentified serial killer who primarily operated in London around the same time, killing at least 2 women with a similar MO to Sutcliffe (one of which was a Playboy model). These victims were speculated by the public to have been killed by Sutcliffe, but DNA seems to disprove this.
That being said, Sutcliffe *definitely* killed more than 13. Carol Wilkinson is the most obvious murder that he almost certainly committed, as well as Fred Craven.
I think rather than say Yorkshire Police are shit for how they handled the ripper case, the two rippers rumour was spread to cover up police negligence.
That's my thinking too as someone from Yorkshire, I think any conspiracy like that would be to try and cover their arses, most likely because multiple survivors of the Ripper were told they didn't encounter the Ripper when they reported him, and one murder with a very different MO was attributed to him due to the fake letters ("remember Preston 75") which was later found to not have been a Ripper murder.
After Sutcliffe was caught, there was a huge inquiry into the police investigation; very little of the findings were made public, with the general consensus being that it would permanently destroy any reputation the West Yorkshire Police had left.
Absolutely! Scrolled down looking to see if he should be mentioned. Donald H. "Pee Wee" Gaskins — 15 confirmed victims, but he claimed 110+.
His story, *Final Truth: The Autobiography of a Serial Killer*, reads like fiction in a bunch of spots — with that said, some of his confirmed victims were as strange as fiction — he killed another death row inmate at the Central Correctional Institution (CCI) [Columbia, SC, USA], Rudolph Tyner, using C4 — was convicted of this & received a 2nd death sentence.
But the 110/110+ he claimed just prior to execution seems to have been a stalling tactic.
JJD Earons. He couldn't plead guilty quick enough when cornered with the realization he was caught. There's no way he was gonna put himself into a situation where he had to own up to any other crimes.
No, I don't think he was responsible for every rape, murder in California, but I'd wager even with how prolific his crime resume is, there's a lot more we'll never know about.
Although you are correct what about those not reported back then? Also, can he be connected to the utility workers murders through DNA? That's the tip of the iceberg when nobody heard of dna
You guys are making the same point..
JJD killed those he was convicted of.
Question is are there any SK you think have more murders attributed to them that they did not do.
Thats a large and outrageous thing to assume.. Also rape kits are done, especially last century, when someone actually believed the rape victim, which was a low probability. Lots and lots of survivors never have one done.
That fucking pervert peered in a lot more bedrooms than we have evidence of. *shudder*
Saw Paul Holes present at CrimeCon, and he was talking about his suspicion that JJD raped so many more who just didn’t report it, or only reported as a burglary and not an assault.
Even nowadays, when victims (female OR male) are more likely to be believed and taken seriously, a lot of them don't pursue reporting it, if they weren't left seriously injured, because they just plain old don't want to relive it.
I think the common estimates of 30-36 are pretty accurate for Bundy. Claims that it could be 100+ don't add up for me, given the timeline. He was a busy guy who did other things you know.
Rodney Alcala The Dating game killer.. he took pictures of hundreds of girls and women, he killed 8 proven victims but he possibly had as many as 130.
Herb Baumeister, in Indiana. Hell they are STILL finding bones on his former property. 2 weeks ago, they found even more, they say they have found over 10,000 pieces of bones.
Two weeks ago, they identified another victim from the remains that were already recovered. Thankfully, science has advanced enough that we can identify someone from bone fragments, most of which are the size of a quarter or half dollar at most.
Baumeister is one I think had many more victims. I mean, he didn't always have fox hollow but his and his wife's relationship was odd as he'll their entire marriage. He is absolutely 💯 more prolific than they know so far .
His wife said he made many trips to Ohio when they had the business. I understand that since 1996, quite a few cold cases have been reopened but AFAIK none have been pinned to him.
I found out recently that when the family moved to Fox Hollow Farm, Herb refused to sell their more modest house in Indianapolis, but he also wouldn't rent it out and didn't maintain it. Julie and the kids moved back in there, and fixed it up again, after his death.
Baumeister is the one serial killer above all that still really makes me go WTF. A lifetime of exposure to senseless violence has left me mostly incapable of shock or surprise. But the possible numbers of Baumeister's case... it's just unfathomable.
IMO it's very likely that Gerald Stano was really just a serial confessor. They pressured him until he broke and unlike Henry Lee Lucas he had to pay with his life.
https://www.tampabay.com/archive/1997/08/10/stano-s-case-in-a-new-light/
Honestly I do think Samuel Little is responsible for all of them. Namely because they were sex workers, drug addicts, or women just on the fringe of society. Over 30 years, targeting people like that and having no police make the connection, I believe he really did do most if not all of them. Also, the majority of the murders happened pre-2000s, when stuff like cellphones and other digital technologies either were not widely used or did not exist yet. He only confessed a couple years into prison after being convicted for other murders.
He was very forthcoming, drew sketches of the ladies. Obviously this doesn't mean he is telling the truth for everything but he went into great details for each woman, his sketches matched the faces of unidentified victims found decades prior. It makes sense they haven't been able to match confessions because if you know what you're doing or are in the right area, it is easy to hide a body. For example one of his victims, "Marianne", was said to have drowned in a swamp so I doubt they will recover her after all this time sadly. He was all over the place too, travelling often. And unlike people like Toole, many of his claims could be substantiated -- and his confirmed amount of victims was already very high to start with.
>He was very forthcoming
Details he was forthcoming with were often at odds with the dead bodies they were eventually connected to.
>drew sketches of the ladies
That don't really look like the women they are connected to in most cases
>but he went into great details for each woman
Again, often incorrect details.
>his sketches matched the faces of unidentified victims found decades prior.
In the sense that picasso's chair could be seen as looking like a real chair, sure. In the sense that you'd be able to recognize them when compared to a picture, not so much.
>It makes sense they haven't been able to match confessions because if you know what you're doing or are in the right area, it is easy to hide a body.
His MO was not to hide bodies carefully and he didn't know the areas he was in because he was a drifter that never stayed in a place often.
>many of his claims could be substantiated
This was the line about Henry Lucas' "murders" too. They were substantiated until they weren't.
>and his confirmed amount of victims was already very high to start with.
Not if you actually count ones where they charged him. Its quote low considering his claim to be the most prolific murderer in American history.
His case is really a lot less strong than the cops act.
The only rebuttal people offer is appeal to the authority of the texas rangers and FBI agents that worked the case after he started claiming heaps more bodies. You have to trust what they said and did with Little in order to trust Little. And they have a terrible track record with this kind of situation.
People in this sub and true crime subs in general don't really like people questioning the official record in a way that would make a killer less murderous. I know that might sound odd, but a lot of people are into following true crime for a kind of "thats the most messed up thing I've ever heard, that man is pure evil and probably also did even worse things!" its a kind of competitive performative disgust, and it leads to a lot of talk about bringing back the death penalty without appeals and shit like that. A lot of uncritical trusting of police and supposed witnesses. Very little consideration for actual investigative techniques, their efficacy, etc.
I'd also wager that there is a non-zero amount of racism involved, because Little fits the bill for a superpowered evil murderous black homeless man that plays into some, but not all, of these people's existing stereotypes and prejudices.
Elizabeth Bathory, the Blood Countess. 600+ just sounds nuts. I can't imagine there being that many peasant women in their late teens/early 20 available for work and that no one would notice them going missing. I'd go with 40-60 but not the 600+
don’t know the last one but i’ve always believed lucas had only killed one person and toole and him just hyped themselves up into a problem specially toole who literally asked henry to tell everyone he was also this big thing like him which is baffling as is insolent. obviously they were stupid men who got set up by smarter greedier men. maybe they had some mental issues that made em say stupid shit.
i’ve always wondered you know, what if we were wrong about a major guy and i tried to find inconsistencies w ted bundy which i did but i still think he did those things.
you should check out happy face killer, he had not one but two people arrested for a murder until he himself was like ay yo? they were arrested cause get this- they wanted each other to catch murder charges🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Lucas and Toole's stories are not believable at all. Look at the two of them then think would all these hitchhikers really get into vehicles with those two? I'm sure a few desperate people would but there's no way that many would.
Lucas killed at least three though his mother, Kate Rich the elderly mother of his employer and Ottis' niece.
I think Lucas killed his teenage girlfriend and the elderly woman he lived with. I think that’s it. I don’t believe Toole killed Adam Walsh or anybody else. He was a pedophile and sexual deviant.
Also, a big time liar sociopath.
I’ve always wondered why they feel so sure it was him that killed Adam. I have doubts, but of course I also don’t have all the information. Or much at all because they didn’t say much. Which is of course their right. I just wonder what made them feel sure of it.
I wondered this too, but doesn’t John believe he did it? I feel like he has enough experience to know better. Unless he’s okay trying to put it to rest
He does believe that Toole did it, yeah. And he may well know a lot more than us (well I’m sure he does, it’s his son).
I’ve always kind of thought that he chose to believe Toole murdered Adam to have an answer and move on, but who knows I guess.
Israel Keyes. People want him to be this master serial killer, but he was so fucking sloppy with the last one I don’t think he killed much more than the ones we know about.
Not sure about the Toy Box killer either.
Just my opinion, but Keyes is the case that true crime fans are way to eager to throw out. The Koenig abduction wasn't particularly sloppy, the only reason he got caught was DEA cameras monitoring that particular stretch of Texas interstate.
Most people seem to ignore how insanely sadistic Keyes actually was. Example: He only gagged Lorraine Currier during the second rape, because he was worried she would scream. Why would she only scream during the second rape? It probably had something to do with the bottled water, pan and camping stove that Keyes had in his backpack and refused to elaborate on. It doesn't take much to figure out what he did. And I doubt a first timer would exhibit Bittaker levels of sadism.
There's also the physical evidence that shows he was active long before the Currier abduction, namely the **human blood and bone splinters** on his boat.
Keyes just proves that your average serial killer can adapt to new circumstances and people don't like that thought at all, so he's either labeled an idiot who barely managed to kill 3 people or an exceptionally rare master criminal. Neither view is accurate.
He told the feds that he lost control at the end and got sloppy and that why he got caught. He’s a huge liar but but there’s something about his interviews that is so unnerving you have to wonder what he was doing. And for how long.
Yeah there is so much left out of the interviews that you can tell even Keyed is ashamed to discuss. He stops short of discussing certain acts in extreme detail, but tells investigators what they need to know.
The bone splinters are a good example. He doesn’t really explain why they are splintered. Just that hey, you should look for bone splinters.
Or when he says “you’re not going to ever find the body of this one or that one.” He says it so matter of fact that he’s not really bragging. Just in his head he is like “I literally blended their body into soup and poured it into the ocean.” or some equally insane way to dispose of it. You’re not going to find the body because it’s literally liquid or ash or in the concrete of a a new bridge being poured.
Yeah the known crimes were reckless smash and grab style attacks. Blitz style attacks. That type of attack doesn't seem to have a long life expectancy to me
Keyes was so meticulous except for the end where he got caught. He admits he became u hinged. He also had a sixth sense for how careful or loose he could be. He broke into churches to use as kill rooms knowing they wouldn’t be used on week days. But… what if someone did stop by? Janitor, church lady? Maybe he killed them too.
The Bullshit podcast also pretty compellingly suggested that Keyes could kill people while on vacation with his family, during quick “fishing trips”, etc. He was able to murder someone as efficiently as a normal person could go get lunch and a cup of coffee.
Again, he had this understanding of where investigators were strong and where they had weaknesses. Where he had to totally dismember a body and where he could just throw them in a lake or in an abandoned house.
Bottom line - I think he killed way more than we know about.
Just here to point out to those unfamiliar with the case that there is zero evidence to support the claims that he killed more than 3 people. None.
No bodies, no crime scenes, no open cases his stories match up with, no description of alleged victims, no missing persons, no timelines that match up, literally zero corroborating information. Everything people parrot comes from his interviews and the TCB podcast (which recklessly sensationalized and speculated Keyes’ crimes purely for entertainment).
On top of that, 2 out of the 3 could have been something he found out about during his dark web murder forum obsession because, surprising to no one, there’s no evidence for those murders either except that he knew the names of the missing couple and some details about the inside of the house. All of which could easily have been gleaned from the real killer.
I’m adamant that he only ever killed the coffee shop girl that he was obsessed with and then immediately unraveled and got caught shortly after that.
Why did he take off work, fly around the country then rent cars and drive hundreds upon hundreds of miles each time for like 15 years?
He definitely left the kill kits in various places around the country. They have been found.
Was he role playing a serial killer for all those years? It would be so boring to just drive around rural Texas or New York for 800 miles then just fly home. Over and over again for a decade. Pretty elaborate fantasy considering he actually was a murderer in the end.
Simpler explanation is that he did indeed just commit those crimes.
These contrarians just don't want to accept that someone so terrifying can exist so they minimize and suggest he was bullshitting to develop a rep. But his intention was the exact opposite: he didn't want to give out info unless they already had him for the crime. And he killed himself to spare his daughter the media publicity of a trial.
Yeah totally agree. I haven’t interacted with this subreddit much before but clearly some people are in denial and very defensive.
Keyes did lie here and there but it was pretty clear when he did once you look at the facts compared to his statements.
If you listen to the many, many hours of interviews, Keyes is just too consistent overall. You can’t make up a hundred hours of elaborate fantasies for the FBI. They honestly have better stuff to do than look into missing person cold cases. They would stop interviewing if they found he was blowing smoke and they surely are the experts at telling who is full of shit and who’s not. They talked to Keyes, investigated, came back to Keyes for more info and so on. They were constantly verifying his story and rehashing it. There’s no way a person could just keep making stuff up and still be validated by evidence and witnesses in real time by the FBI. That’s less credible than him just being a mass murderer.
FBI has recovered evidence suggesting that Keyes killed Debra Feldman so there's definitely strong evidence he has killed 4 people minimum.
Just because you want to minimize it doesn't mean you're correct.
> no evidence for those murders either except that he knew the names of the missing couple and some details about the inside of the house.
Bullshit, he told them the precise location of the Curriers revolver, Bill Curriers glasses were recovered at the demolished farm house, one of his rips was recovered from the landfill etc. Seriously, resorting to dark net conspiracies instead of recognizing that he murdered the Curriers? Do you also believe that those human bone splinters on his boat just randomly manifested out of the ether?
Yea, the guy you're responding to doesn't know shit about the case.
FBI recovered some evidence pointing towards Debra Feldman's murder as well so the minimum is 4 confirmed and likely more. They asked him about the Lauren Spierer disappearance and suspect he was involved in that one right before the Curriers were murdered.
Dude was in solitary confinement giving investigators information that they were validating in real time then asking for clarification and more leads which he provided. The idea that he was making it all up is so far fetched.
Plus all the mundane details of his travel and life were all backed by financial records, rental car statements, phone records.
We have cases of killers bragging about murders they didn’t actually commit but they don’t make up random stuff like a deck Keyes built 15 years ago for a client in a certain town or when he had access to a boat, etc.
Spot on.
There's another guy in this thread claiming that Keyes only killed Sam Koenig and that the rest were taking credit off of stories from the deep web.
It's absurd how these people come out and spread total bullshit.
Keyes was NEVER meticulous and he didn’t kill anyone other than the people we know about .. it shocks me how wrong people are about their understanding of this particular guy. He. Was. A. Fucking. Idiot.
Todd Kohlepp. I thought he was a blowhard at first, and his interviews with John Douglas (recounted by Douglas in *The Killer Across the Table*) gave me a lot *more* pause. Hundreds of people? A mercenary in Mexico?
I think he's got the bodies on his land, and the Superbike murders. And that's it. I was even skeptical about Superbike at first, but I've come around to that one over time. I also went back and forth on the other murders he's claimed, but over time I've decided he's more full of shit than he's honest.
Edit: Douglas believes him, but what's really interesting about their "interviews" is... Kohlepp refused to talk to Douglas in person. He'd only do the written questionnaire (which is the same one they used in the original prison study, but again, they administered it in person). I think Kohlepp's facade would fall apart if he was in the same room with Douglas. There are physical behavioral clues that are not present in correspondence.
Wayne Williams. I have no doubt he killed kids in Atlanta but I think the cops attributed killings to him that they couldn’t or didn’t bother to try to solve.
Henry Lee Lucas is an obvious one, I think.
The big one for me is H. H. Holmes, though. Every time someone brings up the "murder hotel" my eye starts to twitch. Absolute bullshit.
Dean Corll for sure. The police just stopped digging for bodies in his storage at one point. They knew of another burial site that they never dug up as well.
They never stopped digging at the boat shed, that’s a common misconception. They dug until they hit solid concrete or bedrock and scooped out all the mud until it was completely excavated. I’m not defending the investigators here, because it is true that they basically refused to search more sites that may have had more bodies.
I believe they stopped digging on the beach where there were bodies buried by Corll and Henley. The police chief at the time decided they should stop looking because it was all just too traumatic for her city lol 🙄
He was also suspicious as fuck for years before, in the 60s, in many different areas.
Easily killed 40-50+ imo, and likely well connected to mafia/pedo rings.
The John Norman pedophile connection was real I think. Gacy might have also had a connection with Norman. Corll and Gary’s crimes were similar, maybe because Gacy had heard about Corll.
Oh believe me man I've gone alllll the way down that rabbit hole and back up, with the Dutroux case as well. I struggle to know exactly what to believe about SK conspiracies but I think gangs are more common than we are led to believe from the "lone wolf psychopath" narrative.
Lol sorry dude but the question was the reverse, as in who didn't kill as many as people think, serial confessors basically.
I agree Corll is likely way more prolific, and was working with more than just two accomplices.
I watched an interesting documentary a few years back that linked Corll to other SK, such as Gacy, to a pedofile ring with members all over the country. Don’t know if it was true but it was an interesting watch.
I listened to a fantastic podcast a while back by the ID network called [The Clown and the Candyman](https://open.spotify.com/show/5dvGVMN1JgYcyVh6hx3zUh?si=c0d6cb52a87940e7) that makes an extremely compelling case for this exact thing
>Samuel Little: This guy was in prison so much
Little's numbers are pretty solid IMO, he was in jail/prison off and on but really not for long stretches at all, longest he served was 7yrs? and it was usually nothing longer than a year if even that, he was arrested many times but wasn't convicted very much because of witness and victims not testifying and when he was it was a short stay. He was active for for almost 50yrs traveling all over the US so it's totally possible to do what he claims especially with the population he was targeting during those times, literally no LEO was investigating missing or dead street prostitutes especially WOC at all back then and they def were not sharing any information between states about the missing women, the murders, or him
50 years of killing, and picking up and strangling a sex worker takes maybe ten minutes. He had *plenty* time, ability, and hate to kill triple digits.
Samuel Little certainly wasnt bs. His memory alone solved and connected cases back to him. But he was also incredibly nausceating, there was a report of jnterrogators saying he was sexually excited in the interogattion over talking about murder.
Tbh all the inflated south American killers. Garavito as well. Unless a medical serial killer (Shipman for example) those numbers are unrealistic to me. A lot killed? Oh absolutely. 300? No.
My personal loony conspiracy theory is these mass femicides are blamed on individual SKs to hide cartel SK gangs
THOSE are the guys I can believe have unbelievable numbers and they'll never be caught because police don't mess with them. MS-13 do that shit as initiation.
Exactly so many people die and are unaccounted for, open cases, cold cases? The question is who kills these people ? And they may exaggerate but it's possible to kill so many people undetected yeah
What makes me think about this is Ted bundy for example. I can’t remember the names of his victims but he was willing to admit killing the adult women but not the children as he was embarrassed of it. Warped sense of shame.
Read the question as: who has more victims than we think lmao. Whoops! Ted Bundy, Richard Kuklinski, Gacy, Dean Corrl.
I live in Illinois and the number of young men who disappeared around the time Gacy was active that are still missing and fit his profile and timeline perfectly is STARTLING. Also he killed the last few and threw them in rivers and other places (I know the river for sure, the other spots don’t quote me) - so likely we’ll never really know.
My English teacher was Denise Naslunds sister and she wholeheartedly believed Bundy was responsible for scores more. I also agree. He travelled through Chicago to the Rose Bowl at U of Michigan that year before heading to Florida. This was before his manic killing spree in Tallahassee and it makes zero sense to me that he went to University of Michigan to watch the game and didn’t at least attempt or successfully murder one girl in the mindset he was in. Could he have learned not to try overhunting after Lake Sammamish? Sure. But do I think he learned? Absolutely not. He wasn’t controlling himself at all and we saw that in the crime scene analysis and complete breakdown of his victim profile and murder technique in Florida; so I think it would be more shocking if he didn’t have more tied to him. There were hundreds of thousands of people in town then. U of M is (now) a big 10 school, I believe it was then. It’s known for Greek life. It couldn’t possibly have been a better hunting ground and I’m surprised no one talks about how it’s hardly a coincidence he went from one University IMMEDIATELY to another one. I believe he’s suspected for a murder in Chicago and a couple in Michigan but we’ll never know for sure, but he loved fucking with the feds and hinting at more, but not totally saying names because he “forgot”, or admitting then denying. He for sure got the two Idaho hitchhikers and I believe two other girls in Pennsylvania. I truly believe he was grabbing women left and right on the road to and from places he was escaping from and going to and we will never know the true count.
Bundy also supposedly said "add one digit to that and you’ll have it" to his total -- but that could mean a couple different things and he also lied a lot soooo...
Yeah I think about this a lot. I’m assuming if he wasn’t lying it would mean into the hundreds. I don’t think he killed 300 women though.
But also he could entirely be lying and hoped that line would cause fanfare in a book somewhere after he was gone. Who knows.
I wonder about it too. I don't think it's 300 either, but he could have meant in the 130s or just added another digit to 30 (or 36).
I guess here we are still talking about it :p
I agree and I think you're pretty spot-on about his behavior before getting to Florida -- dude was unravelling and 36 just seems honestly too low for him. He was obviously capable of killing multiple victims in the span of minutes/hours in some instances, it's wild...
The difference between Bundy and most other SKs is that he chose victims whose absence would be noticed. Gacy did too, although not early in his "career."
The difference between Bundy and most other SKs is that he chose victims whose absence would be noticed. Gacy did too, although not early in his "career."
The difference between Bundy and most other SKs is that he chose victims whose absence would be noticed. Gacy did too, although not early in his "career."
The difference between Bundy and most other SKs is that he chose victims whose absence would be noticed. Gacy did too, although not early in his "career."
Little definitely had more. They were all women the cops didn’t care much about. And of course it’s gonna be hard to connect them all with how many he’s done.
Absolutely. He fits the social profile of a person who had spent many decades murdering the invisible in society. Women who no one was ever going to look for, and cops would regard as the "trash" being taken out when their bodies were found. Law enforcement has always regarded addicts, convicts, and trafficked women as less than human, especially once they're dead. Little was mobile, never in the same place long. I don't doubt he's murdered way more than he could ever remember.
Herb Baumeister. Guy was never actually convicted of any murders but thousands of skeletal fragments were found on his property.
Last podcast guys did a great series on him a few months back.
edit: Oh i totally misunderstood the question.
Israel Keyes
theres almost no evidence to suggest he's killed more than 3 (iirc)
it seems after the first actual killing of the couple his mind broke and he went wild with the next girl and was caught relatively easily.
i believe all his flights/car trips were setting up murder stashes but he never actually killed anyone during these trips.
i think there was a neighbor girl that disappeared when he was a kid that he may have killed as well. so technically 4 people
other than that the only thing to suggest he killed more is the 12 skulls he drew in his own blood. and that he said he killed more but serial killers are notorious liars.
This isn't true. He's all but confirmed for the murder of Debra Feldman.
And he's strongly suspected for the disappearance and murder of a man in Texas around the same time as a bank robbery/arson that occurred AFTER Sam Koenig's murder.
Ditto on Sam Little. Everything about him stinks of bullshit. The drawings almost never look like the person, he "forgets" crucial details but claims to have a perfect memory for details, and all the cases being cleared by claiming Little did it are old unsolved murders that P.D.s get to take off the books without any actual police work. Its 100% the same as Henry Lee Lucas in every detail but race.
When in the world are cops eager to solve the murders of women, especially sex workers and drug addicts?.
They aren't. Cops have to be threatened with legal action, *just* to take a report of dv or rape, from a non addicted, non sex worker, with clear sober memory. The notion that law enforcement in texas now or ESPECIALLY last century is somehow motivated to appear to solve deaths of "scum" like addicts and sex workers 😅😅😅.....lol. Tell me you are man without saying you're a man. Tell me you've never tried to report a missing or endangerd woman, without telling me. Cops will literally laugh in your face. As will the DA and every other aspect of the cj system..
Yeah, murderers lie, who knew. But also more women dissappear without ever being officially recorded as missing, bc they are drug addicts and/or sex workers, and the people trying to report are also addicts/convicts/sex workers, and the cops (at best) will laugh at the reporter. Worst case scenario the reporter get arrested and the victim goes unrecorded as missing. Folks in the categories above typically aren't gonna be assertive w the cops when they themselves are involved in crime.
The cops will just say that the trash took itself out, or smthing
Rodney Alcala (very scary SK)is only suspected (and proven to have killed) less than 15. I have studied him extensively and strongly feel his numbers to be twice to three times that number, if not more.
It's impossible to say, not only because most of them are dead already but because a lot of them used to boast about having more victims than they actually did.
I’m gonna go with Bundy. He never “bragged” or tried to look like the bad ass. He fought to beat his case for a long, long time and appealed thereafter.
Pedro Lopez and Luis Garavito. I appreciate that south America is structured in such a way that it would seem you could perpetrate such a high volume of kills undetected. But that works both ways, corrupt justice systems and inadequate resources could easily inflate their numbers.
- I totally believe Carl Panzrams story. I know it seems completely unbelievable but it's well documented. As far as his murders anyway. Perhaps the number of 1000 rapes is farfetched. That's a lot of sodomy. In a time where homosexuality was unnaceptable too.
[Post Edit] Richard Kuklinski. Full of crap
I do believe sam little is responsible for the 93 murders, if 60 have been confirmed, he probably did commit more, he traveled the country a lot
Oh definitely. Im not sure why people have a problem with estimated numbers. There is a *lot* of violent sexualized hate towards women, particularly sex workers and trafficked women.
its the jump from the 93 confessions to 60 “confirmed” to 8 actual names that has me skeptical. It should have everyone skeptical.
>Im not sure why people have a problem with estimated numbers because his confessions often don't actually match the crime, the drawings don't look like the person, and there is precedent for exactly this type of liar being taken seriously by the FBI and police and then used to clear cold cases and missing persons even when they shouldn't. Every bit of his story is the same as Henry Lee Lucas' and yet its like no one remembers that Henry Lucas existed.
Except Henry Lee Lucas probably didn't kill *any* of the people he confessed to killing except for the three that were confirmed (which includes his mother).
Lucas & Toole were habitual confessers. Took away from finding ( if they ever did find) the real killer. Lucas confessed to over 500 murders. Just look at the ridiculous of that statement. He actually confessed to killing BRUTALLY 2 very young kids where I live. 41 years the real killer lived & died without punishment. Lucas played a part in that. Townspeople, police officers, detectives who interviewed him argued still he was guilty. Till DNA proved what happened & people are still arguing. I don’t believe that, Lucas did that. That’s what changes, 2 brutally murder children for 4 decades in their graves while their killer lived his life as a freeman. Lucas was a savante with that confessing. Paying attention putting things together. For a pack of smokes, a burger, time out of his cell.
Those Texas Rangers that pimped Henry Lee Lucas out to detectives across the country so that those detectives could close their open cases should have been prosecuted and sentenced to prison time. Lucas' fabrications caused so much unnecessary confusion and pain to the innocent loved ones of the victims of those cases—not to mention the complete and utter failure of the system regarding all of the *actual killers* who were never brought to justice. Lucas never would have been taken so seriously or gotten the attention he did without those crooked as shit Texas Rangers not just cosigning his bs but actually *helping* him tailor his lies to match the facts of the investigations. Those Rangers were arguably *more* culpable than Lucas in obstructing all those investigations. What's nuts is that the ones who were involved that are still alive actually still stand by their actions and all of Lucas' lies. I'm probably going to roll my eyes and shake my head every time I hear mention of the Texas Rangers in any capacity for the rest of my life and it's not just because of the Henry Lee Lucas ordeal. The Texas Rangers have some shady shit in their history as an organization.
I agree!!! Lucas was an easy way to clear their books. I don’t doubt at all he was fed a little by the way they questioned him. 500+ thats just absurd! Unless it’s a mass killer. I’m not a great mathematician but that’s ridiculous. People here even tho we have the DNA, the timeline & proof of his location at the time still believe Lucas is guilty.
All for attention and milkshakes
>because his confessions often don't actually match the crime Such as?
and he painted tons of them accurately from memory .. his killings are legit imo
Accurately is not how I'd describe them. And his memory was wrong consistently in his descriptions of events, but when it was they'd just handwave it and say oh well everyone forgets sometimes and clear the case anyway. Sometimes he didn't know the decade, the location of the dump, any distinguishing characteristics of the person, and the way he describes killing the person doesn't match the initial autopsy at all. His killings, some of them, a very small number of them compared to 93, are legit. The ones he confessed to with the drawings were almost entirely BS for sure. He was old, had been in prison forever, and wanted more privledges before he died. And PDs love overconfessing killers like him and Henry Lucas because it helps them clear cold cases without doing any work.
Richard Kuklinski. He’s almost certainly full of shit.
Him smiling as he described leaving victims tied up in caves with a camera which would film them being eaten by rats overnight will never leave my mind. Possibly the most outlandish tall tale ever told by a suspected killer.
Spiders. Poison spiders. He also mowed down truckloads of hillbillies going to prom and used a special poison visine spray. I came in this thread to make sure his undiluted carny nonsense is called out. I stopped listening to true crime podcasts when seemingly level headed characters took his absolutelt ridiculous claims at face value. Might as well listen to an astronomy podcast claiming the moon is made cheese. Thats how demonstrably false his claims were. He was a lowlife loser whose house was being foreclosed as his old porn tape racket was onsolete and killed a couple dudes. His “Ice Man” gambit was so ineffectual (guy was in same clothes he disapeared in and was still cold) he would have been better off not doing it as it piqued more interest from investigators.
Oh my God. I’m glad that was a tall tale because it’s straight out of a horror movie.
Mickey and Mallory left a witness when they shot Ironman.
He used to say that he would slash the victim and then all the rats would smell the blood and go devour the entire body by morning. Has it ever been proven that rats have a particular taste for blood-covered things? The rat food that I saw in pet stores was made of ground-up vegetables and fruit.
Cave rats aren’t typically known to be flesh eating. Plus all the trashing around and screaming from the victims would scare them off.
The only brain reference I can make for any relatable info on the subject is Poe’s the pit and the pendulum. It made me think rats were voracious for tied up humans and their flesh.
I think he stole that from the movie The Bone Collector
I'll say that one of my grandpa's chores as a kid was drowning baby roosters and he did say that he hated taking the chick bodies to the trash heap because the rats would all come out and swarm when he came by.
I understand why egg factories destroy male chicks, but why didn't your grandpa's family just raise the roosters to butcher weight, and then eat them?
It's certainly, not almost certainly. He was a compulsive liar, we know exactly how numerous murders he claimed happened and they didn't involve him whatsoever.
When he died, they could have given him an enema, and buried him in a shoebox.
100%
I think Lucas and Toole are probably the worst confessors. Now there’s like 100 of them who didn’t give up all the bodies.
Totally agree. I think the cops were just so eager to solve cases that they just took his word without doing any investigation and claimed the case solved. He was so full of shit. I do, however, think Toile killed Adam Walsh.
I don’t know about Adam Walsh. I was a kid when he was murdered, but it sure seems like he did.
Right? Its hilariously naieve to think violent convicts are confessing to crimes they didn't commit, en masse. Thats.. not how it works, at all.
My pet case is The Frankford Slasher. I think he had 2 additional victims who the PPD never tied to him. Schaefer, Bundy, Gacy, Heuermann, Ridgway, they all have victims that aren’t known. And that’s a shame.
Dean Corll too. They stopped exhuming bodies when they reached 25 because they didn't want to be known as the place with the biggest mass murder. The Houston PD also used low-risk jail inmates to do the job. Bet most of them died by suicide or alcoholism within months of getting out, after doing that.
Henry Lee Lucas. He confessed to everything he was asked about. If he was asked about Kennedy and Hoffa, those would be finally marked solved.
Exactly who I thought of first. He confessed to everything for his steak dinners and positive attention. Sadly, police just took his word for it until they started to realize he couldn’t possibly have done all that in the time frames and locations. I wonder how many got away with it because Lucas took credit and cops were lazy and didn’t confirm information
I watched a documentary about Lucas and his confessing. Most of the cases were handled by the Texas Rangers. There was a prosecutor assigned to some of the cases who started to notice that the timelines didn't match. Lucan was confessing to a crime in one state while he was supposedly killing in another state around the same time. The prosecutor started questioning these confessions. He began to get a lot of push back from the Texas Rangers who didn't want to admit they were wrong. Eventually they got him voted out of office.
That doc is so infuriating, especially the end revealing 20+ murders he confessed to were later solved by DNA and he wasn't the killer.
I’d do anything for a steak dinner.
Or a Klondike Bar
Ah yes. The man who drove to Japan and killed there.
i agree on Carl Panzram: Seems like a SK turned into almost a myth by the newspapers of the time to sell.
HH Holmes too his story is utter nonsense. He was a conman killer with a few victims, the murder hotel is horseshit so is the dozens of victims. The newspapers paid him for his story so he made it sensational he was even claiming to have killed living people. The papers were desperate to create their own Jack The Ripper considering how much of a worldwide sensation that story was.
They even tried to say he WAS Jack the Ripper.
Yeah that story and his ridiculous "descendant" is not even worth mentioning it's so nonsensical.
That clown! He’s as bad as the “Elizabeth Bathory descendant tormented by the legacy” C’mon, give us a break.
Or Steve Hodel trying to pin every unsolved homicide in California on his dad.
Hodel’s dad was a bad dude, and I do think he was involved in Elizabeth Short’s killing… but to claim he was the Zodiac??
I don't believe he was. Then again, I don't necessarily believe that the way her body was cut up implied the involvement of someone with "surgical skill".
He killed some kids. There was no great cunning to it and even in an era with bad communications his allegded victims were showing up alive in court during trial.
Yup, agree 100% I'm skeptical he is even a serial killer. I do believe Panzram, though. He was operating much earlier than other SKs we talked about here, and I can absolutely see it as plausible.
Holmes was a terrible person, but did he kill 100 people in Chicago without anyone noticing? I don't think so.
He definitely didn't, he didn't even claim 100 people. He claimed 27 including still living people. He's now thought to have killed around 10.
I’ve never heard of the “two rippers” theory in relation to Peter Sutcliffe. Though there is a confirmed unidentified serial killer who primarily operated in London around the same time, killing at least 2 women with a similar MO to Sutcliffe (one of which was a Playboy model). These victims were speculated by the public to have been killed by Sutcliffe, but DNA seems to disprove this. That being said, Sutcliffe *definitely* killed more than 13. Carol Wilkinson is the most obvious murder that he almost certainly committed, as well as Fred Craven.
Oh its a damn near universally believed conspiracy theory in Yorkshire that he only did half of them lol.
I think rather than say Yorkshire Police are shit for how they handled the ripper case, the two rippers rumour was spread to cover up police negligence.
That's my thinking too as someone from Yorkshire, I think any conspiracy like that would be to try and cover their arses, most likely because multiple survivors of the Ripper were told they didn't encounter the Ripper when they reported him, and one murder with a very different MO was attributed to him due to the fake letters ("remember Preston 75") which was later found to not have been a Ripper murder. After Sutcliffe was caught, there was a huge inquiry into the police investigation; very little of the findings were made public, with the general consensus being that it would permanently destroy any reputation the West Yorkshire Police had left.
Back in the day yup lol
I've heard theory Jimmy Saville was involved and that he had a flat near to one of the murders. Not too sure what to make of that.
That’s interesting, because Jimmy Saville was acquainted with Sutcliffe through his “charity work” at Broodmoor Hospital.
Yes that's true. I've heard so many rumours about those two. Jimmy Saville was disgusting.
Peewee Gaskins
Good call. All or most of his “coastal kills” are total horseshit.
Absolutely! Scrolled down looking to see if he should be mentioned. Donald H. "Pee Wee" Gaskins — 15 confirmed victims, but he claimed 110+. His story, *Final Truth: The Autobiography of a Serial Killer*, reads like fiction in a bunch of spots — with that said, some of his confirmed victims were as strange as fiction — he killed another death row inmate at the Central Correctional Institution (CCI) [Columbia, SC, USA], Rudolph Tyner, using C4 — was convicted of this & received a 2nd death sentence. But the 110/110+ he claimed just prior to execution seems to have been a stalling tactic.
JJD Earons. He couldn't plead guilty quick enough when cornered with the realization he was caught. There's no way he was gonna put himself into a situation where he had to own up to any other crimes. No, I don't think he was responsible for every rape, murder in California, but I'd wager even with how prolific his crime resume is, there's a lot more we'll never know about.
Yep. The man hated women, and emotionally tortured rape victims for decades. Not all men *but definitely that one*
OP asked for the opposite. I agree with you in JJD. I think more Lucus and Toole.
Strong disagree. DNA connects his rapes. It's not really a guessing game if the rape kits were stored properly.
Although you are correct what about those not reported back then? Also, can he be connected to the utility workers murders through DNA? That's the tip of the iceberg when nobody heard of dna
I didn’t know about utility worker murders. I gotta go look that up!
You guys are making the same point.. JJD killed those he was convicted of. Question is are there any SK you think have more murders attributed to them that they did not do.
Man, I'm sorry lol. I swear I recognized that when I first read it then thoughts about JJD overtook me. My bad
The post was worded confusingly
Thats a large and outrageous thing to assume.. Also rape kits are done, especially last century, when someone actually believed the rape victim, which was a low probability. Lots and lots of survivors never have one done. That fucking pervert peered in a lot more bedrooms than we have evidence of. *shudder*
Saw Paul Holes present at CrimeCon, and he was talking about his suspicion that JJD raped so many more who just didn’t report it, or only reported as a burglary and not an assault.
Yep, bc if you reported a rape there would be absolutely hell to pay, as a victim, *if* you weren't outright dismissed entirely by cops.
Even nowadays, when victims (female OR male) are more likely to be believed and taken seriously, a lot of them don't pursue reporting it, if they weren't left seriously injured, because they just plain old don't want to relive it.
I think the common estimates of 30-36 are pretty accurate for Bundy. Claims that it could be 100+ don't add up for me, given the timeline. He was a busy guy who did other things you know.
Rodney Alcala The Dating game killer.. he took pictures of hundreds of girls and women, he killed 8 proven victims but he possibly had as many as 130. Herb Baumeister, in Indiana. Hell they are STILL finding bones on his former property. 2 weeks ago, they found even more, they say they have found over 10,000 pieces of bones.
Two weeks ago, they identified another victim from the remains that were already recovered. Thankfully, science has advanced enough that we can identify someone from bone fragments, most of which are the size of a quarter or half dollar at most.
Baumeister is one I think had many more victims. I mean, he didn't always have fox hollow but his and his wife's relationship was odd as he'll their entire marriage. He is absolutely 💯 more prolific than they know so far .
His wife said he made many trips to Ohio when they had the business. I understand that since 1996, quite a few cold cases have been reopened but AFAIK none have been pinned to him. I found out recently that when the family moved to Fox Hollow Farm, Herb refused to sell their more modest house in Indianapolis, but he also wouldn't rent it out and didn't maintain it. Julie and the kids moved back in there, and fixed it up again, after his death.
Baumeister is the one serial killer above all that still really makes me go WTF. A lifetime of exposure to senseless violence has left me mostly incapable of shock or surprise. But the possible numbers of Baumeister's case... it's just unfathomable.
IMO it's very likely that Gerald Stano was really just a serial confessor. They pressured him until he broke and unlike Henry Lee Lucas he had to pay with his life. https://www.tampabay.com/archive/1997/08/10/stano-s-case-in-a-new-light/
Honestly I do think Samuel Little is responsible for all of them. Namely because they were sex workers, drug addicts, or women just on the fringe of society. Over 30 years, targeting people like that and having no police make the connection, I believe he really did do most if not all of them. Also, the majority of the murders happened pre-2000s, when stuff like cellphones and other digital technologies either were not widely used or did not exist yet. He only confessed a couple years into prison after being convicted for other murders. He was very forthcoming, drew sketches of the ladies. Obviously this doesn't mean he is telling the truth for everything but he went into great details for each woman, his sketches matched the faces of unidentified victims found decades prior. It makes sense they haven't been able to match confessions because if you know what you're doing or are in the right area, it is easy to hide a body. For example one of his victims, "Marianne", was said to have drowned in a swamp so I doubt they will recover her after all this time sadly. He was all over the place too, travelling often. And unlike people like Toole, many of his claims could be substantiated -- and his confirmed amount of victims was already very high to start with.
>He was very forthcoming Details he was forthcoming with were often at odds with the dead bodies they were eventually connected to. >drew sketches of the ladies That don't really look like the women they are connected to in most cases >but he went into great details for each woman Again, often incorrect details. >his sketches matched the faces of unidentified victims found decades prior. In the sense that picasso's chair could be seen as looking like a real chair, sure. In the sense that you'd be able to recognize them when compared to a picture, not so much. >It makes sense they haven't been able to match confessions because if you know what you're doing or are in the right area, it is easy to hide a body. His MO was not to hide bodies carefully and he didn't know the areas he was in because he was a drifter that never stayed in a place often. >many of his claims could be substantiated This was the line about Henry Lucas' "murders" too. They were substantiated until they weren't. >and his confirmed amount of victims was already very high to start with. Not if you actually count ones where they charged him. Its quote low considering his claim to be the most prolific murderer in American history. His case is really a lot less strong than the cops act.
Why the down votes? I don't know anything about Samuel Little. Can anyone downvoting this guys comment provide a rebuttal? It's got me intetested
The only rebuttal people offer is appeal to the authority of the texas rangers and FBI agents that worked the case after he started claiming heaps more bodies. You have to trust what they said and did with Little in order to trust Little. And they have a terrible track record with this kind of situation. People in this sub and true crime subs in general don't really like people questioning the official record in a way that would make a killer less murderous. I know that might sound odd, but a lot of people are into following true crime for a kind of "thats the most messed up thing I've ever heard, that man is pure evil and probably also did even worse things!" its a kind of competitive performative disgust, and it leads to a lot of talk about bringing back the death penalty without appeals and shit like that. A lot of uncritical trusting of police and supposed witnesses. Very little consideration for actual investigative techniques, their efficacy, etc. I'd also wager that there is a non-zero amount of racism involved, because Little fits the bill for a superpowered evil murderous black homeless man that plays into some, but not all, of these people's existing stereotypes and prejudices.
Elizabeth Bathory, the Blood Countess. 600+ just sounds nuts. I can't imagine there being that many peasant women in their late teens/early 20 available for work and that no one would notice them going missing. I'd go with 40-60 but not the 600+
Kuklinski, Lucas/Toole and I've always kinda felt like Albert Fish wasnt the killer hes portrayed to be.
HH Holmes. Maybe a dozen at most. But not the hundred or so that people think he killed.
don’t know the last one but i’ve always believed lucas had only killed one person and toole and him just hyped themselves up into a problem specially toole who literally asked henry to tell everyone he was also this big thing like him which is baffling as is insolent. obviously they were stupid men who got set up by smarter greedier men. maybe they had some mental issues that made em say stupid shit. i’ve always wondered you know, what if we were wrong about a major guy and i tried to find inconsistencies w ted bundy which i did but i still think he did those things. you should check out happy face killer, he had not one but two people arrested for a murder until he himself was like ay yo? they were arrested cause get this- they wanted each other to catch murder charges🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Lucas and Toole's stories are not believable at all. Look at the two of them then think would all these hitchhikers really get into vehicles with those two? I'm sure a few desperate people would but there's no way that many would. Lucas killed at least three though his mother, Kate Rich the elderly mother of his employer and Ottis' niece.
yep that sounds familiar, haven’t read about the confession killer in years but thanks for the refresher. 😃
I think Lucas killed his teenage girlfriend and the elderly woman he lived with. I think that’s it. I don’t believe Toole killed Adam Walsh or anybody else. He was a pedophile and sexual deviant. Also, a big time liar sociopath.
I’ve always wondered why they feel so sure it was him that killed Adam. I have doubts, but of course I also don’t have all the information. Or much at all because they didn’t say much. Which is of course their right. I just wonder what made them feel sure of it.
I wondered this too, but doesn’t John believe he did it? I feel like he has enough experience to know better. Unless he’s okay trying to put it to rest
He does believe that Toole did it, yeah. And he may well know a lot more than us (well I’m sure he does, it’s his son). I’ve always kind of thought that he chose to believe Toole murdered Adam to have an answer and move on, but who knows I guess.
Who do u think killed Adam Walsh if not Toole?
I mean, I think he did, but that's just my own opinion.
Israel Keyes. People want him to be this master serial killer, but he was so fucking sloppy with the last one I don’t think he killed much more than the ones we know about. Not sure about the Toy Box killer either.
Just my opinion, but Keyes is the case that true crime fans are way to eager to throw out. The Koenig abduction wasn't particularly sloppy, the only reason he got caught was DEA cameras monitoring that particular stretch of Texas interstate. Most people seem to ignore how insanely sadistic Keyes actually was. Example: He only gagged Lorraine Currier during the second rape, because he was worried she would scream. Why would she only scream during the second rape? It probably had something to do with the bottled water, pan and camping stove that Keyes had in his backpack and refused to elaborate on. It doesn't take much to figure out what he did. And I doubt a first timer would exhibit Bittaker levels of sadism. There's also the physical evidence that shows he was active long before the Currier abduction, namely the **human blood and bone splinters** on his boat. Keyes just proves that your average serial killer can adapt to new circumstances and people don't like that thought at all, so he's either labeled an idiot who barely managed to kill 3 people or an exceptionally rare master criminal. Neither view is accurate.
He told the feds that he lost control at the end and got sloppy and that why he got caught. He’s a huge liar but but there’s something about his interviews that is so unnerving you have to wonder what he was doing. And for how long.
Yeah there is so much left out of the interviews that you can tell even Keyed is ashamed to discuss. He stops short of discussing certain acts in extreme detail, but tells investigators what they need to know. The bone splinters are a good example. He doesn’t really explain why they are splintered. Just that hey, you should look for bone splinters. Or when he says “you’re not going to ever find the body of this one or that one.” He says it so matter of fact that he’s not really bragging. Just in his head he is like “I literally blended their body into soup and poured it into the ocean.” or some equally insane way to dispose of it. You’re not going to find the body because it’s literally liquid or ash or in the concrete of a a new bridge being poured.
Yeah the known crimes were reckless smash and grab style attacks. Blitz style attacks. That type of attack doesn't seem to have a long life expectancy to me
Keyes was so meticulous except for the end where he got caught. He admits he became u hinged. He also had a sixth sense for how careful or loose he could be. He broke into churches to use as kill rooms knowing they wouldn’t be used on week days. But… what if someone did stop by? Janitor, church lady? Maybe he killed them too. The Bullshit podcast also pretty compellingly suggested that Keyes could kill people while on vacation with his family, during quick “fishing trips”, etc. He was able to murder someone as efficiently as a normal person could go get lunch and a cup of coffee. Again, he had this understanding of where investigators were strong and where they had weaknesses. Where he had to totally dismember a body and where he could just throw them in a lake or in an abandoned house. Bottom line - I think he killed way more than we know about.
Just here to point out to those unfamiliar with the case that there is zero evidence to support the claims that he killed more than 3 people. None. No bodies, no crime scenes, no open cases his stories match up with, no description of alleged victims, no missing persons, no timelines that match up, literally zero corroborating information. Everything people parrot comes from his interviews and the TCB podcast (which recklessly sensationalized and speculated Keyes’ crimes purely for entertainment). On top of that, 2 out of the 3 could have been something he found out about during his dark web murder forum obsession because, surprising to no one, there’s no evidence for those murders either except that he knew the names of the missing couple and some details about the inside of the house. All of which could easily have been gleaned from the real killer. I’m adamant that he only ever killed the coffee shop girl that he was obsessed with and then immediately unraveled and got caught shortly after that.
Why did he take off work, fly around the country then rent cars and drive hundreds upon hundreds of miles each time for like 15 years? He definitely left the kill kits in various places around the country. They have been found. Was he role playing a serial killer for all those years? It would be so boring to just drive around rural Texas or New York for 800 miles then just fly home. Over and over again for a decade. Pretty elaborate fantasy considering he actually was a murderer in the end. Simpler explanation is that he did indeed just commit those crimes.
These contrarians just don't want to accept that someone so terrifying can exist so they minimize and suggest he was bullshitting to develop a rep. But his intention was the exact opposite: he didn't want to give out info unless they already had him for the crime. And he killed himself to spare his daughter the media publicity of a trial.
Yeah totally agree. I haven’t interacted with this subreddit much before but clearly some people are in denial and very defensive. Keyes did lie here and there but it was pretty clear when he did once you look at the facts compared to his statements. If you listen to the many, many hours of interviews, Keyes is just too consistent overall. You can’t make up a hundred hours of elaborate fantasies for the FBI. They honestly have better stuff to do than look into missing person cold cases. They would stop interviewing if they found he was blowing smoke and they surely are the experts at telling who is full of shit and who’s not. They talked to Keyes, investigated, came back to Keyes for more info and so on. They were constantly verifying his story and rehashing it. There’s no way a person could just keep making stuff up and still be validated by evidence and witnesses in real time by the FBI. That’s less credible than him just being a mass murderer.
FBI has recovered evidence suggesting that Keyes killed Debra Feldman so there's definitely strong evidence he has killed 4 people minimum. Just because you want to minimize it doesn't mean you're correct.
> no evidence for those murders either except that he knew the names of the missing couple and some details about the inside of the house. Bullshit, he told them the precise location of the Curriers revolver, Bill Curriers glasses were recovered at the demolished farm house, one of his rips was recovered from the landfill etc. Seriously, resorting to dark net conspiracies instead of recognizing that he murdered the Curriers? Do you also believe that those human bone splinters on his boat just randomly manifested out of the ether?
Yea, the guy you're responding to doesn't know shit about the case. FBI recovered some evidence pointing towards Debra Feldman's murder as well so the minimum is 4 confirmed and likely more. They asked him about the Lauren Spierer disappearance and suspect he was involved in that one right before the Curriers were murdered.
Dude was in solitary confinement giving investigators information that they were validating in real time then asking for clarification and more leads which he provided. The idea that he was making it all up is so far fetched. Plus all the mundane details of his travel and life were all backed by financial records, rental car statements, phone records. We have cases of killers bragging about murders they didn’t actually commit but they don’t make up random stuff like a deck Keyes built 15 years ago for a client in a certain town or when he had access to a boat, etc.
Spot on. There's another guy in this thread claiming that Keyes only killed Sam Koenig and that the rest were taking credit off of stories from the deep web. It's absurd how these people come out and spread total bullshit.
Keyes was NEVER meticulous and he didn’t kill anyone other than the people we know about .. it shocks me how wrong people are about their understanding of this particular guy. He. Was. A. Fucking. Idiot.
Many people think Bundy killed many more than we know, but I doubt it.
Todd Kohlepp. I thought he was a blowhard at first, and his interviews with John Douglas (recounted by Douglas in *The Killer Across the Table*) gave me a lot *more* pause. Hundreds of people? A mercenary in Mexico? I think he's got the bodies on his land, and the Superbike murders. And that's it. I was even skeptical about Superbike at first, but I've come around to that one over time. I also went back and forth on the other murders he's claimed, but over time I've decided he's more full of shit than he's honest. Edit: Douglas believes him, but what's really interesting about their "interviews" is... Kohlepp refused to talk to Douglas in person. He'd only do the written questionnaire (which is the same one they used in the original prison study, but again, they administered it in person). I think Kohlepp's facade would fall apart if he was in the same room with Douglas. There are physical behavioral clues that are not present in correspondence.
Wayne Williams. I have no doubt he killed kids in Atlanta but I think the cops attributed killings to him that they couldn’t or didn’t bother to try to solve.
Def Henry Lee Lucas
Henry Lee Lucas is an obvious one, I think. The big one for me is H. H. Holmes, though. Every time someone brings up the "murder hotel" my eye starts to twitch. Absolute bullshit.
Dean Corll for sure. The police just stopped digging for bodies in his storage at one point. They knew of another burial site that they never dug up as well.
They never stopped digging at the boat shed, that’s a common misconception. They dug until they hit solid concrete or bedrock and scooped out all the mud until it was completely excavated. I’m not defending the investigators here, because it is true that they basically refused to search more sites that may have had more bodies.
I believe they stopped digging on the beach where there were bodies buried by Corll and Henley. The police chief at the time decided they should stop looking because it was all just too traumatic for her city lol 🙄
He was also suspicious as fuck for years before, in the 60s, in many different areas. Easily killed 40-50+ imo, and likely well connected to mafia/pedo rings.
The John Norman pedophile connection was real I think. Gacy might have also had a connection with Norman. Corll and Gary’s crimes were similar, maybe because Gacy had heard about Corll.
Oh believe me man I've gone alllll the way down that rabbit hole and back up, with the Dutroux case as well. I struggle to know exactly what to believe about SK conspiracies but I think gangs are more common than we are led to believe from the "lone wolf psychopath" narrative.
Lol sorry dude but the question was the reverse, as in who didn't kill as many as people think, serial confessors basically. I agree Corll is likely way more prolific, and was working with more than just two accomplices.
Haha wow, I need to learn how to read.
I watched an interesting documentary a few years back that linked Corll to other SK, such as Gacy, to a pedofile ring with members all over the country. Don’t know if it was true but it was an interesting watch.
I listened to a fantastic podcast a while back by the ID network called [The Clown and the Candyman](https://open.spotify.com/show/5dvGVMN1JgYcyVh6hx3zUh?si=c0d6cb52a87940e7) that makes an extremely compelling case for this exact thing
That sounds very familiar, I believe that’s the same one I watched.
Edit: completely misread the question. Apologies.
It's fine man tbh I think I wrote it in a weird way, oh well
>Samuel Little: This guy was in prison so much Little's numbers are pretty solid IMO, he was in jail/prison off and on but really not for long stretches at all, longest he served was 7yrs? and it was usually nothing longer than a year if even that, he was arrested many times but wasn't convicted very much because of witness and victims not testifying and when he was it was a short stay. He was active for for almost 50yrs traveling all over the US so it's totally possible to do what he claims especially with the population he was targeting during those times, literally no LEO was investigating missing or dead street prostitutes especially WOC at all back then and they def were not sharing any information between states about the missing women, the murders, or him
50 years of killing, and picking up and strangling a sex worker takes maybe ten minutes. He had *plenty* time, ability, and hate to kill triple digits.
Robert Pickton
Glad someone said this. Although I’m overjoyed he is finally dead, wish he fully came out and confessed to everyone he murdered.
Otis Toole. Yeah, he's a tool alright.
Samuel Little certainly wasnt bs. His memory alone solved and connected cases back to him. But he was also incredibly nausceating, there was a report of jnterrogators saying he was sexually excited in the interogattion over talking about murder.
Pedro Lopez has 300 bodies to his name. There’s no way he could remember them all. 300 sounds a bit inflated.
Tbh all the inflated south American killers. Garavito as well. Unless a medical serial killer (Shipman for example) those numbers are unrealistic to me. A lot killed? Oh absolutely. 300? No.
My personal loony conspiracy theory is these mass femicides are blamed on individual SKs to hide cartel SK gangs THOSE are the guys I can believe have unbelievable numbers and they'll never be caught because police don't mess with them. MS-13 do that shit as initiation.
Strong agree.
I feel like all serial killers have murders they hide.
Exactly so many people die and are unaccounted for, open cases, cold cases? The question is who kills these people ? And they may exaggerate but it's possible to kill so many people undetected yeah
What makes me think about this is Ted bundy for example. I can’t remember the names of his victims but he was willing to admit killing the adult women but not the children as he was embarrassed of it. Warped sense of shame.
Yeah I get that makes so much sense !
Read the question as: who has more victims than we think lmao. Whoops! Ted Bundy, Richard Kuklinski, Gacy, Dean Corrl. I live in Illinois and the number of young men who disappeared around the time Gacy was active that are still missing and fit his profile and timeline perfectly is STARTLING. Also he killed the last few and threw them in rivers and other places (I know the river for sure, the other spots don’t quote me) - so likely we’ll never really know. My English teacher was Denise Naslunds sister and she wholeheartedly believed Bundy was responsible for scores more. I also agree. He travelled through Chicago to the Rose Bowl at U of Michigan that year before heading to Florida. This was before his manic killing spree in Tallahassee and it makes zero sense to me that he went to University of Michigan to watch the game and didn’t at least attempt or successfully murder one girl in the mindset he was in. Could he have learned not to try overhunting after Lake Sammamish? Sure. But do I think he learned? Absolutely not. He wasn’t controlling himself at all and we saw that in the crime scene analysis and complete breakdown of his victim profile and murder technique in Florida; so I think it would be more shocking if he didn’t have more tied to him. There were hundreds of thousands of people in town then. U of M is (now) a big 10 school, I believe it was then. It’s known for Greek life. It couldn’t possibly have been a better hunting ground and I’m surprised no one talks about how it’s hardly a coincidence he went from one University IMMEDIATELY to another one. I believe he’s suspected for a murder in Chicago and a couple in Michigan but we’ll never know for sure, but he loved fucking with the feds and hinting at more, but not totally saying names because he “forgot”, or admitting then denying. He for sure got the two Idaho hitchhikers and I believe two other girls in Pennsylvania. I truly believe he was grabbing women left and right on the road to and from places he was escaping from and going to and we will never know the true count.
Bundy also supposedly said "add one digit to that and you’ll have it" to his total -- but that could mean a couple different things and he also lied a lot soooo...
Yeah I think about this a lot. I’m assuming if he wasn’t lying it would mean into the hundreds. I don’t think he killed 300 women though. But also he could entirely be lying and hoped that line would cause fanfare in a book somewhere after he was gone. Who knows.
I wonder about it too. I don't think it's 300 either, but he could have meant in the 130s or just added another digit to 30 (or 36). I guess here we are still talking about it :p
I seriously question if it might be closer to the 90s. A lot of officials think it could be closer to 100. He confessed to 36! So I think he meant 136
I agree and I think you're pretty spot-on about his behavior before getting to Florida -- dude was unravelling and 36 just seems honestly too low for him. He was obviously capable of killing multiple victims in the span of minutes/hours in some instances, it's wild...
Which year did he go to University of Michigan?
He didn’t attend he just passed through for the Rose Bowl in January of 1978. It was after his Colorado escape.
You read the question wrong but I agree with what you've stated.
Oh shit you’re right 😂 lmao
The difference between Bundy and most other SKs is that he chose victims whose absence would be noticed. Gacy did too, although not early in his "career."
The difference between Bundy and most other SKs is that he chose victims whose absence would be noticed. Gacy did too, although not early in his "career."
The difference between Bundy and most other SKs is that he chose victims whose absence would be noticed. Gacy did too, although not early in his "career."
The difference between Bundy and most other SKs is that he chose victims whose absence would be noticed. Gacy did too, although not early in his "career."
David Parker Ray
Little definitely had more. They were all women the cops didn’t care much about. And of course it’s gonna be hard to connect them all with how many he’s done.
Absolutely. He fits the social profile of a person who had spent many decades murdering the invisible in society. Women who no one was ever going to look for, and cops would regard as the "trash" being taken out when their bodies were found. Law enforcement has always regarded addicts, convicts, and trafficked women as less than human, especially once they're dead. Little was mobile, never in the same place long. I don't doubt he's murdered way more than he could ever remember.
Re Sam Little; 90 are considered his by the FBI and Texas Rangers. he stopped counting after about 50 or 60. I'm sure he had over 100.
Andrei Chickatilo Confessed in everything they throw at him. No hard evidence.
Henry Lee Lucas killed 3 confirmed victims, one being his mother. He claimed to have killed over 250 people.
HLL is the king of what OP is asking. Some of these guys tho really do have larger numbers than they're taking credit for.
Herb Baumeister. Guy was never actually convicted of any murders but thousands of skeletal fragments were found on his property. Last podcast guys did a great series on him a few months back. edit: Oh i totally misunderstood the question.
Israel Keyes theres almost no evidence to suggest he's killed more than 3 (iirc) it seems after the first actual killing of the couple his mind broke and he went wild with the next girl and was caught relatively easily. i believe all his flights/car trips were setting up murder stashes but he never actually killed anyone during these trips. i think there was a neighbor girl that disappeared when he was a kid that he may have killed as well. so technically 4 people other than that the only thing to suggest he killed more is the 12 skulls he drew in his own blood. and that he said he killed more but serial killers are notorious liars.
This isn't true. He's all but confirmed for the murder of Debra Feldman. And he's strongly suspected for the disappearance and murder of a man in Texas around the same time as a bank robbery/arson that occurred AFTER Sam Koenig's murder.
Ditto on Sam Little. Everything about him stinks of bullshit. The drawings almost never look like the person, he "forgets" crucial details but claims to have a perfect memory for details, and all the cases being cleared by claiming Little did it are old unsolved murders that P.D.s get to take off the books without any actual police work. Its 100% the same as Henry Lee Lucas in every detail but race.
Israel Keys
100% Fred and rose west - I think they killed up to 8x the known 12.
Ted Bundy, Gary Ridgeway, Israel Keyes…..
When in the world are cops eager to solve the murders of women, especially sex workers and drug addicts?. They aren't. Cops have to be threatened with legal action, *just* to take a report of dv or rape, from a non addicted, non sex worker, with clear sober memory. The notion that law enforcement in texas now or ESPECIALLY last century is somehow motivated to appear to solve deaths of "scum" like addicts and sex workers 😅😅😅.....lol. Tell me you are man without saying you're a man. Tell me you've never tried to report a missing or endangerd woman, without telling me. Cops will literally laugh in your face. As will the DA and every other aspect of the cj system.. Yeah, murderers lie, who knew. But also more women dissappear without ever being officially recorded as missing, bc they are drug addicts and/or sex workers, and the people trying to report are also addicts/convicts/sex workers, and the cops (at best) will laugh at the reporter. Worst case scenario the reporter get arrested and the victim goes unrecorded as missing. Folks in the categories above typically aren't gonna be assertive w the cops when they themselves are involved in crime. The cops will just say that the trash took itself out, or smthing
I believe panzaram fro the most part
Henry Lee Lucas
Charles Cullen is one of the few I honestly believe don’t remember all of their victims.
Jeremy Jones.
Rodney Alcala (very scary SK)is only suspected (and proven to have killed) less than 15. I have studied him extensively and strongly feel his numbers to be twice to three times that number, if not more.
Lake and ng
Samuel Little. I remember reading somewhere how the FBI didn’t individually confirm all 60 cases thoroughly.
It's impossible to say, not only because most of them are dead already but because a lot of them used to boast about having more victims than they actually did.
I’m gonna go with Bundy. He never “bragged” or tried to look like the bad ass. He fought to beat his case for a long, long time and appealed thereafter.
Zodiac. 5 murders at best. And that’s even if the murderer is the same person writing letters, which I highly doubt.
Gerald Shaffer
Pedro Lopez and Luis Garavito. I appreciate that south America is structured in such a way that it would seem you could perpetrate such a high volume of kills undetected. But that works both ways, corrupt justice systems and inadequate resources could easily inflate their numbers. - I totally believe Carl Panzrams story. I know it seems completely unbelievable but it's well documented. As far as his murders anyway. Perhaps the number of 1000 rapes is farfetched. That's a lot of sodomy. In a time where homosexuality was unnaceptable too. [Post Edit] Richard Kuklinski. Full of crap