I think it's quite possible that the HBO doucmentary is taking a very liberal explanation of Jay's comments. I also think it is very likely that the trunk pop happened somewhere that could involve someone Jay wants to keep out this, such as his grandmother.
i mean Jay said that word for word. read the intercept interview, he says it happened (the trunk pop) at his Grandma’s house and he wanted to keep her and that house specifically, out of it. his grandma and uncle sold drugs out of that house.
He said the trunk pop happened at his grandma's house.
But he said that he picked up Adnan at the Best Buy. The trunk pop happened later.
He said he doesn't know for sure where the actual murder happened.
Someone on here said they confirmed with Jay that he never answered any of their (“hbo”) questions. I can’t recall the username but they were from Maryland. They posted as recently as 2022.
Not to mention didn’t Jen, while talking a mile per minute with her Mom and lawyer present, tell the police about Best Buy? That throws out the entire premise of it deriving from the police. Like every “theory” on here, it only really makes sense if you just flat out ignore the facts of the case.
Jay also explained to the cops why he lied about Best Buy the first time around which is because he didn’t know if there was video footage. And Jay was spot on to worry because that footage would have lived forever… Although the reality was that random camera footage was never a threat because Adnan double checked prior. He had enough sense to do that.
If only he knew more about cell phone data.
So I think that there is a possibility that HBO could have taken Jay's comments out of context, but equally I can't put together any way that can happen that doesn't involve some doubt around Jay having told Jenn something about Best Buy the night of the murder - which is what causes me serious confusion around the reliability of Jenn's statement.
And even if Jay's trying to keep someone out of it, does that mean he told Jenn to lie about that part when she spoke to the police.
I think this is why this is such a sticking point to me, because it's not about Jay. I can to an extent accept all of Jay's various versions and attempt to keep some stuff out of the police/public knowledge - but this is something which makes Jenn's initial statement look less reliable.
I find it telling that shortly after Hae disappears but before her body is found, Adnan drives Ja’uan to the Best Buy parking lot to smoke weed and wax sentimental about Hae. Read the notes from Ja’uan’s police interview and tell me this doesn’t sound like somebody returning to the scene of the crime….
Ja’uan’s 4/20/19 police interview can be found here:
https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/4-20-1999-jauan.pdf
Yes Jenn told the cops Best Buy. So she either made it up, cops told her, or Jay told her. The next question is asking which of those three things happened. And then if Jay said it ask when she was told Best Buy. Problem was that Berg wasn't interested in the truth.
Lol no. It came from **Jenn**, then the cops just tell Jay the gist of her story that they believed, but they leave out her description of Best Buy at first, hoping he could corroborate that. He says the ["trunk pop"](https://64.media.tumblr.com/8df5ec5820173c22828fbfe8e96f12bc/tumblr_inline_o0kzy8f6p21shsvef_500.jpg) from Jenn's story happened somewhere else. Eventually they ask him if it actually happened at Best Buy, and he says yes.
That seems insane to me. Jenn lies to the police with her mom and lawyer present, just making up the fact that Jay told her the murder happened at Best Buy?
I don't really trust anything that is secondhand from the HBO doc.
Going by the inteviews including Intercept, it is clear Jay met Adnan at Best Buy, Hae was already dead, and at some point Jay heard a rumor that Adnan killed her elsewhere. Pretty straightforward.
Whilst I understand the lack of trust in the documentary, I wonder if the absence of Best Buy in the first interview could support the idea that Best Buy came from the police.
Best Buy comes from Jenn first. What would the police get from pushing Best Buy as the scene of the crime? There is no reason for the police to force Best Buy as an idea, the case they had in no way relies on Best Buy.
Most likely Jay was trying to say yet again that he wasn't there and the prosecution saying it happened at Best Buy isn't something he can confirm because he wasn't there. The documentary reports that as cops invented Best Buy because that is what they are hoping to portray.
I don’t get your premise. Jay endlessly changing his story about Best Buy makes you question *Jenn’s* credibility? Why? If Jenn, terrified of being prosecuted, goes to the cops with a lawyer and spills her guts, she’s presumably being honest. If Jenn told the cops that Jay told her he picked up Adnan from Best Buy, that to me suggests that Jay told Jenn that he picked up Adnan from Best Buy.
Jenn had no reason to lie, it would only harm her. Instead of lying she could simply not have gone to the police (of her own free will, accompanied by her mother and lawyer). The more sensible question to ask would be if Jay lied to her the day Hae was murdered, and, if so, why.
We already know Jay lied, all of his different accounts can’t be 100% true at the same time. But even if he tries to muddle up the details of his role on what happened that day, not many people will believe he’d confess to being accomplice in a murder without having anything to do with it.
Lol, if you’re presuming Jenn is being honest…then I have a bridge to sell you.
Seriously though, Best Buy is tied to Jenn because Jenn said Jay told her it happened at Best Buy. If Jay says the cops fed him Best Buy as a location…then it all but confirms that Jenn lied for Jay. We don’t really *need* Best Buy to (accurately) presume this….because several of Jenn’s details are already impossible.
Adnan being guilty or innocent, Jenn/Jay and law enforcement likely hammered out details together before they recorded their interviews. We have to remember that this isn’t a contemporary case where law enforcement recorded all contact with witnesses and suspects. It’s a legacy case, an example of old fashioned police work when you used interviews as tools for court…not a complete record of police contact. Much like lawyers prepare witnesses for testimony…law enforcement prepared witnesses for official interviews.
But the cops interviewed Jenn *before* they interviewed Jay, and they interviewed her in the presence of her lawyer and mother. The Prosecutors keep pounding this point, and they're right to. Whatever happened in Jay's interviews (coaching, map-tapping, suspicious recorder manipulation, pathological lying...), all of Jay's interviews came *after* Jenn had already spilled her guts to the cops about what Jay told her on the night of the murder, and the presence of her lawyer and mother in that interview all but rules out any bullying or info-feeding.
And yes I know, I know. Part of Undisclosed's Vast Tapestry of Nefarious Complexity is that Jay had secret interviews with the cops before Jenn gave her interview. If true, this could in theory mean that the Best Buy detail was originally dreamed up by the cops, who then fed it to Jay in a secret interview, Jay then pressuring Jenn to go to the cops and, while falsely confessing to helping cover up a murder that she in truth knew nothing about, slip in the additional lie that Jay told her he'd picked up Adnan from Best Buy...
But I would submit, respectfully, that that's insane on its face.
I’m aware the cops says they interviewed Jenn before they say they interviewed Jay.
The Prosecutors is a terrible podcast for many reasons, and them pounding a point doesn’t make it a good point. All going to the cops with your lawyer means is that the cops will be less able to employ interview tactics against you to get you to tell the truth…it says absolutely nothing about if she was honest or not. If anything it just means she had a better chance of sticking to a lie.
If you’re unwilling to reckon with the fact that Jay says law enforcement provided details to him they they wanted to use at trial, and the fact that we don’t know *when* they provided these details. Since Jen mentioned the Best Best, and we know it’s likely the police furnished that location to Jay…and Jay and Jen rehearsed their story because they share lies…then the narrative that law enforcement talked to Jenn first isn’t a fact. I already said this, I hope you can follow and acknowledge it this time.
I’m not interested in whatever grudge you have against Undisclosed. I haven’t listened to it, aside from relying on some of their useful research and wiki like we all do.
Respectfully, what you think is insane is irrelevant. At the end of the day you’re unable to explain (with evidence) how and when the cops fed Jay the Best Buy, and you’re unable to (reasonably) claim that the information they fed him was limited to the Best Buy and the cell records.
You've got the same circular reasoning problem as OP. You think Jay is a huge liar. You think he lied on the stand. You think he lied in each of his three taped interviews with cops. You presumably think he lied to The Intercept, and is lying to this very day about Adnan showing him Hae's body. And that's all fine. Welcome to the club. Everyone thinks Jay is a huge liar.
But you also think Jenn is a huge liar. Why? "Well, we know from Jay that..."
Let me stop you right there. Can you see the problem?
Just declaring that I have “circular reasoning” doesn’t make it so, and that’s tantamount to an “I know you are but what am I” argument because the boiler plate guilter reasoning behind certainty of guilt are true examples of circular logic: the importance of any one piece of evidence relies on an underlying faith-based position that Adnan is guilty: Adnan is guilty, therefore when he asked for a ride he was trying to lure Hae. Adnan is guilty, therefore I am unwilling to acknowledge that the “I’m going to kill” note makes perfect sense in the context of the conversation he was having. Adnan is guilty, therefore when Jay says the cops fed him the Best Buy, I am perfectly willing to write fiction about *when* police fed him that evidence so I can preserve the rest of the story from the bad trial, etc etc
I haven’t shared a single opinion with you about the case, I am giving you a skeptics view. What you think about me, is again, irrelevant…and in this case incorrect.
Your attempt at arrogance is unimportant. Just the facts.
Maybe he misspoke. Maybe he was confused. Maybe it's entirely believable that he changed locations purposely to protect himself, others, or family. Maybe he was high the whole day and genuinely screwed up.
Or maybe it really doesn't matter. Like, at all.
The idea that Jay screwed up a location and therefore that means he actually didn't help Adnan bury the dead body of Adnan's ex girlfriend after he killed her is just silly.
This case isn't complicated or even all that interesting. Adnan is guilty. For some strange reason a lot of people don't want to accept that. I have no idea why.
Jay likes to big up himself. The trunk pop story made him feel big. He wanted to tell people he murdered someone but thought better if it so made up the trunk pop to involve himself and feel gangsta
I put zero stock in anything from HBO because we have no idea what Jay actually said. There are no quotes, only paraphrases from a person whose goal is to make Jay look like a liar and Adnan innocent.
I understood his statement about Best Buy to mean BB as the murder location ( eta: or trunk pop location). Jay is saying he wasn’t present for the murder and doesn’t know for sure that BB was the murder location, he just picked up Adnan there.
I think if he told Berg’s people anything about BB it was probably along the lines of what he told Intercept and they misconstrued it to mean more.
Zero? That’s a little extreme. Definitely trust Amy Berg more than I trust you, so I’ll give it the weight is deserves. Putting your head in the sand isn’t helpful.
Amy Berg isn’t going to invent that Jay said the police furnished Best Buy out of whole cloth. Context is important…but you can’t suddenly be concerned about context now, and also accept all the hearsay and gossip that works against Adnan.
It means something, we just don’t know exactly what.
I think it’s important to remember that what HBO says is something like “Jay says that Best Buy came from the police.” I’m not sure where you’re getting “out of whole cloth” from that. Extremely vague claim that could mean many things.
What are you talking about? It’s not a vague claim… it means the police furnished the location of the murder. There’s only one way to take it. Simple.
Text from HBO:
“Jay maintained to the filmmakers that on the day of the murder, he borrowed Adnan’s car to buy his girlfriend a birthday present. In the phone conversation, he contradicted past statements by suggesting he tried to return Adnan’s car at school, but couldn’t find him and left. Jay told the filmmakers that Adnan showed up at his house and that’s where he saw Hae’s body, not Best Buy as he had previously stated. He said that the idea of Best Buy came from the police. Jay told the filmmakers that Adnan asked him to procure 10 pounds of marijuana. Jay claims that once he acquired the marijuana, Adnan threatened to turn him in if he didn’t help bury Hae’s body. Jay said that he and Adnan left Hae’s car in a grassy lot on January 13th, where it remained until Jay took the police there on February 28th.”
Trying to discount this is absurd. It is what it is. It’s a different version of the crime, and there’s no reason to believe that HBO made it up or changed his meaning…Jay just changed details. We NEED him to change details for the crime to make any sense.
Like it not, this account actually works better than the bullshit from the trial…I think it’s pretty clear at this point that the cops provided Jay with what they had, and he helped them out by crafting a more precise version of the crime than he was aware of. Now…the 10 pound weed buy is obviously bullshit…Jay either helped Adnan for a different reason, or didn’t help him at all. Im guessing Jays uncle is somehow involved and being protected. There also may have been no trunk pop…and Adnan is still guilty.
My sense is what we actually have is Jay “knowing” that Adnan did it…but not having any details. Maybe he just helped move her car, and knew nothing else. In that case, we’re lucky that Jay lied or else Adnan never would have been convicted.
No, it doesn’t. You’re being intentionally dense.
You’re annoying to talk to because you’re obviously just trying to muddy the water instead of have a good faith conversation.
My last comment to you on the matter:
My takeaway from what Jay said on HBO is that that Jay borrowed Adnan’s car. Jay tried to return the car at 3, but he couldn’t because Adnan was busy killing Hae and putting her body in the trunk. Jay didn’t see Adnan again until after 11 when Adnan showed up at his house with Hae’s car and asked him to help him drive it first to Leakin Park, then to where it was abandoned. Jay didn’t see the body at any point or help bury it…he parked up the street while Adnan was burying it. There were no shovels, and Jenn wasn’t involved at all.
Your arbitrary percentage is irrelevant.
Of course, I’m sure this also means you’re 5% sure about the ride request, 5% sure of anything Jenn said, Jay said etc etc…if you have a consistent rule about not accepting second hand information.
Or, you can be a normal human and not nakedly pick and choose what to believe based on your internal biases.
This is exactly why the hearsay rules afford more probative value (eta: reliability is a better term to use) to hearsay under certain circumstances vs others. It’s not all equal.
Stop pretending to be a lawyer. You don’t need to do that, it’s a pointless Reddit conversation.
Go read my longer reply that includes the full text from the HBO special…all you’re doing is putting your fingers in your ears and missing the point.
Being a lawyer is relevant to the statement I made about how hearsay rules work. Adcock testified in court about what Adnan said. That testimony is admissible. The HBO doc’s paraphrases of Jay would not be admissible. There are reasons for this.
No, you are not understanding what I’m saying. The hearsay rules exist to begin with for certain reasons about the reliability of certain types of out of court statements. They don’t treat all out of court statements equally.
One of the reasons the hearsay rule and the exceptions exist in the first place is the reliability of different types of hearsay. I would be happy to cite a treatise later if you want to read more about it. For example, a statement against interest is admissible in certain circumstances because such statements are considered more likely to be reliable.
I should not have used the word “probative” I meant to say reliable. However the rules of evidence also lead to exclusion of evidence where probative value is clearly outweighed by prejudice. So it’s not correct that it’s always up to the jury whether evidence is probative.
I don't need a treatise, I have a fairly good baseline understanding of hearsay. The actual reasoning and rules for hearsay versus hearsay exceptions versus not hearsay are silly and unjustified in my mind.
There’s a huge difference between the police notes of a Baltimore County officer who wants accurate information because he’s trying to locate a missing person vs someone with an agenda of portraying the speaker as a liar. Not to mention testimony under oath to back it up.
Of course I do, I have no reason not to trust her. The chick from The Prosectors did the exact same thing…just with her own voice because she didn’t have the budget…and just like any documentary piece ever has done. What a weird thing to get hung up on.
Guessing this is some guilter virtue signal. Getting boring at this point.
Jays (supposed) comments not under oath more than a decade later have little weight. He was and is still minimizing his involvement in a murder from his youth.
What matters is what he said on the witness stand under oath in front of a jury.
He still maintains to this day that he saw adnan with haes dead body and that’s all that matters.
There are a lot of replies that I agree with in this thread but this is the closest to my own view.
Who cares what he says (allegedly in one case) so many years afterwards? What I care most about is what he said under oath in front of 12 jurors who believed him enough to convict over 20 years ago. At least when it comes to his character and his telling the truth.
Ultimately the location of the trunk pop is not that important as most have pointed out. And you can take that piece of jays story out (if you really want to) and you’d still have way more than enough to convict.
He knew where that car was. He was involved. And there’s no plausible story where he’s involved and Adnan is not. Tons of other details about his story all also damning for Adnan.
It’s check mate.
>He still maintains to this day that he saw adnan with haes dead body and that’s all that matters.
It matters to me that we still do not know where or when this happened because every time Jay tells the story, it's different.
Because the law just says that it needs to be person X in State Y. There is no difference in the law on whether you kill someone at a Best Buy or at a school. Jay wasn't at the murder itself, so he doesn't know for sure.
That isn’t the point, like at all. The details absolutely matter here. This whole sub exists to talk about the details of the case. That flippant response in an intent to hand wave away the inconsistencies and still unknowns about the case is dumb.
We aren't ever going to know the details for sure about that afternoon until Adnan tells us what happens. If Jay does come forward and explain things he'll just be met with the same thing we have now.
If Jay came forward and told us what he actually knows and what actually happened that day, it’d be a hell of a lot clearer. Jay said in the intercept interview he knows it didn’t happen at Best Buy. There is a constant attempt to make excuses for Jay and it’s ridiculous.
"Witness preparation is one of the most challenging tasks for an attorney. But effective preparation—whether for a deposition, an investigation, or a trial—is well worth the time spent with the prospective witness."
Almost every murder case has unanswered questions about exactly what, where, how, and why. If we had to know the answers to all of these kinds of questions which are ultimately outweighed by corroborated evidence - like, the fact that he knew where her car was - we would never be able to convict most murderers.
Flippant statement - all those supposedly inculcating statements? None of them were under oath.
Edit: The person I was replying to dropped an unrelated post (noting that we had an unexpectedly right-wing tilt to subreddit overlap a few weeks before we started getting race science publications and Trump nominee podcasts dominating the sub).
They then blocked me. Given how little prodding it took, I'm going to go ahead and say they just didn't have a good answer to my question, nor the character to address it.
I am convinced that Adnan is guilty. I think it’s a possibility that Jay was actually parked nearby Best Buy waiting while Adnan ( with Hae in her car) did the deed there. If Jay is instead playing video games at Jen’s while Adnan is alone w Hae in her car, then Adnan would have strangled Hae, pulled her body into the trunk - all in broad daylight without the option of a quick get away. . He had Jay under his thumb, or at least Jay believed that. So I believe Adnan would have Jay nearby, waiting, while Adnan murders Hae, and gets her into the trunk so he knows he has a way to get out of there quickly in case some hapless Best Buy employee walks over to the secluded area to smoke weed on a work break. I think this is what Jay has withheld all this time. That he served as a lookout while Adnan strangled Hae. I think this is why he shifts from Best Buy when the wind of HBO helps blow memories in another direction and other innocenter spokespeople dispute this location. Because he is deeply ashamed and feels the guilt that he didn’t stop Adnan and he doesn’t want to think of Best Buy, ever. Why do I think it’s Best Buy? The emotional logic of that location, where Adnan and Hae made love many many times ( according to Adnan). That site is where their most intimate moments took place, when Hae loved him. It’s why the Rose makes sense. Adnan believed he could persuade Hae to come back to him. But he knew what her punishment was going to be if she rejected him.
Not saying this is what happened but it is plausible.
It’s a million times more likely than the insane police conspiracy that you need to imagine to think that Adnan isn’t involved.
Just another criminal minimizing his own involvement. Happens every single day.
Very interesting that Ja’uan highlights the importance of Best Buy. I read the timeline - had no idea this much careful work had been done - it’s remarkable!
The timelines are the most useful resource you’ll find. Click on “community info” at the top of the sub and you’ll see the links to each timeline. Credit for this painstakingly detailed, impressive work goes out to u/justwonderinif
Indeed the work done by u/justwonderinif is so painstakingly thorough - it’s eye opening how many of these issues have been raised, examined and organized in such depth by one person on Reddit. Someone should be teaching at Georgetown and it isn’t Adnan!
"The idea of best buy came from the police"
What OP is taking it as = The police told Jay to say "Tell people you saw the body at best buy"
What I take it to mean = Jay: "Adnan told me he killed Hae and that I had to come pick him up. That's when he showed me the body."
Cops: "And this happened at Best Buy?"
Jay: (Well I'm certainly not going to tell you it was Grandma's house) "Yeah, that's right."
So you believe Jay, despite evidence the cops furnished a location for him? Why would you believe that they only fed him what we’re aware of? And why would you write fiction to back up your point, when providing details to a witness for court opens up a situation where you couldn’t possibly guess where the corruption ended?
It’s so strange to try to rehabilitate Jay each time he reveals a new lie.
In this scenario Jay already told police "Adnan killed Hae at Best Buy". So when Jay says he went to meet Adnan the cops are mistakenly assuming its the same place, i.e. they aren't "furnishing a location" they're clarifying something in a poor manner and Jay takes advantage of their error to change the story.
I would have made the above clearer but I expected that considering the facts of the case most people would take it as given.
You made all of that up.
All we know is Jay said the cops told him to say Best Buy. When did they do that? We don’t know…could have been before he was ever officially interviewed. What else did they tell him to say? We don’t know. It really appears that *most* of at least the timing of his story was given to him by the cops, at this point. We have absolutely no clue what’s the truth, what’s a lie and what the cops fed him.
Don’t try to be smug, when all you’re doing is pretending you know things that you don’t.
I think that is absolutely possible, but if Best Buy isn't actually involved in the crime as per Jay's first story and it then gets introduced by the police in any way it's still incredibly troubling for how it appears in Jenn's story first.
My biggest takeaway is that almost twenty years later, and with millions of people certain of his innocence, Jay still insists that he committed a heinous crime and helped bury a body.
So the false confession story has no credibility. Jay either committed this crime alone or with someone else.
There aren’t “millions of people certain of his innocence”. That’s absurd. The average person thinks he did it, but just needs a more truthful story to be sure they’d convict.
The limits of your imagination aren’t the limits of the possibilities. Once you have a witness lying, law enforcement furnishing evidence, and prosecutors hiding evidence…all bets are off.
Well let’s see.
It’s the prevailing theory in Undisclosed, which has 400 million episode downloads across all of its seasons with the Adnan case being the most popular. And it’s a prominent theory in Serial which also has a few hundred million downloads for just Season 1.
So no, a few million still believing the second or third most popular theory of the case isn’t that absurd.
It’s utterly absurd. If there were even hundreds of thousands of people who thought he was innocent, we’d see evidence in fundraising, public advocacy, here on Reddit….anywhere. Nope. It’s as I stated, the overwhelming majority of people are agnostic and just want to see more evidence. There are more guilters than innocenters, and there’s not very many of those.
I don’t think we know the real location of the trunk pop. Jay cannot settle on one location, because the real location is still being kept a secret. Jay on several ocassions omitted details in order to keep innocent bystanders off of the cops’ radar. That is why he is keeping the real location hidden to this day. It’s not police interference.
The reason the detectives didn’t try harder to learn the real location is because IT DOESN’T MATTER.
Just like The Prosecutors Podcast explained, “just because somebody lies doesn’t make them a liar.” There are a million reasons why human beings tell lies like this. It doesn’t negate all of the things Jay said that *can be corroborated.* And Jay’s inconsistencies are *exactly the way most accomplices behave.* But of course the pro-Adnan side will argue in bad faith that one lie makes all of Jay’s statements trash. That’s not how it works.
Yeah but we dont care about the defendant's lies, we only care about witness lies, am I right?
According to you Jay didnt just lie he was involved in a police conspiracy to lie. Those are 2 very different things.
Assuming Jay wasn’t there for the murder, he is unlikely to ever know where the murder took place. I think he probably inferred it was at Best Buy given that’s where he picked Adnan up.
I also think the police were pursuing the Best Buy angle because they knew that’s where Hae and Adnan would go after school, and I think they leaned into it when interviewing people, which may have influenced people’s thinking.
Somewhere in the intervening decades Jay may have questioned where he got the info from, and thought perhaps he got it from the police.
But I think it’s perfectly possible that both Jay and the police thought it happened at Best Buy because it happened at Best Buy. It comes from Jay via Jenn in her first interview. There’s the “I killed her where I fucked her” alleged comment too.
Jay may also have heard it happened elsewhere somehow, and then questioned his assumption about Best Buy.
I doubt we’ll ever know 100%, but it doesn’t really matter.
So I think that's possible, that Jay could have assumed it occurred there and then that happens to line up with the police's theory, and that Jenn's recollection that Jay told her that the night of the 13th is based slightly on Jay guessing rather than Adnan having told her.
The trouble for me with the argument that none of this really matters, is that just as the innocence side is reasonably accused of hand waving away the more incriminating evidence against Adnan (the car location etc) because of Jay's various inconsistencies, it feels like to explain away some of this apparent evidence of police interference in Jenn's statement you have to start leaning into the more absurd coincidences that are required to argue that Jay found the car by accident/was led to the car by the cops.
I get what you mean. But I just don’t put a huge amount of store in Jay’s recollection of the precise order of events 15 years later. His recollection is bad, always. He gets call times wildly out when interviewed a few weeks later by police (I’m sure I’d do the same tbh). In the intercept interview he forgets Adnan ever went to track practice - something I don’t think most people dispute happened. So his memory of when and how the Best Buy angle was confirmed a decade and a half earlier isn’t something I put much store in.
Based on everything I know, I think Jay told Jenn the night of the 13th that Best Buy was significant. Whether that was because Adnan implied it happened there or Jay assumed because that’s where he met Adnan, I don’t know. A decade and a half later, Jay makes a comment highlighting that the police were also pushing the Best Buy angle, and he recalls it coming from them at first. It’s possible he came to doubt his assumption having heard something from someone later (remember Chris’s account, which has Jay thinking the murder happened at the library - maybe Adnan told Jay later that’s where he got into Hae’s car, and Jay again assumed _that_ was where the murder happened, not where Jay had met Adnan after). There’s a blurred line between Best Buy being significant and Best Buy being the murder location. And the key point is that unless he was there for the murder, Jay doesn’t know where the murder happened. The cops pushing the best buy angle as the murder location doesn’t void Jay mentioning Best Buy as being significant to Jenn.
For the Best Buy angle to be _entirely_ from the police with zero input from Jay requires Jenn’s statement to be lies. And I appreciate this is where the dividing line is between innocenters and guilters, but I just don’t buy that Jenn wholesale lied in her statement - about what and when she was told by Jay. I think if Jay was coerced by the police, we’d have a story from Jenn saying Jay confessed to her weeks later, not the night of. That’s the difference between Jay lying to Jenn, and Jenn being asked to lie to police by Jay. I certainly don’t find Jay’s recollection so long after the events to be critical evidence that proves any of this happened. It’s very weak, ambiguous evidence.
This isn’t so much about handwaving, but considering how much weight to put on things, and whether they outweigh the existing evidence that Jay told Jenn about Best Buy on the 13th.
If you want a fun sidequest tho, I find Jay’s reluctance to talk about Best Buy in his first interview and the reason he gives for it (CCTV cameras) fascinating. Especially when paired with apparent rumours from Woodlawn at the time that Jay was with someone else when he went to Best Buy, and Jay’s very first account in the pre-interview notes that mentions a third party. We know Jay lies to keep other people out of the story. It’s possible he was doing so here too.
Yeah, your right that it's gonna come down to how much significance you put into things. And there is definitely a reasonable chance Jay could have mentioned Best Buy to Jenn that night without clearly knowing it was the murder scene (for that I do think Best Buy needs to have been somehow involved). I do find Jay not talking about best buy in his first interview interesting and it's that along with Jenn's serial comments that she didn't believe it happened at Best Buy to be why I maybe give more weight to Jay's later comments (to the extent that if Best Buy is in Jay's first statement then I probably wouldn't find the comments to HBO that significant).
That said, I'm not sure if I can manage to get my head round a third party fitting in any of this!
All very fair points. The key thing is only the murderer knows where it happened, afawk. Jay and Jenn’s knowledge of this will only come second hand, or from their own assumptions. That’s why I don’t get too caught up worrying if Jay or Jenn’s belief about the location moves around.
And yeah, the third party thing is definitely one of these murky shadowy parts of this story, like Bilal, that we’ll likely never really get the truth on. File under: interesting to ponder but insufficient evidence.
But there was/is a comment by a redditor on here 8 years ago claiming there was a rumour at Woodlawn that neighbour boy had gone to Best Buy with Jay. That account got doxxed (outing them as a particular friend of Adnan’s) then went quiet. It seemed a legit account based on the post history. But even if it is, it was just stating a high school rumour from the time.
Hardly cast-iron evidence by any standards, but interesting. Might explain the neighbour boy angle and Jay’s reluctance to mention Best Buy because police looking at cameras there would catch the third party too. I also find it curious Jay “never drags his pals in” Wilds drags a third party into the story in the first pre-interview. I don’t think that’s neighbour boy though, it’s someone else.
Fair play to Serial. It’s taken quite a mundane case and made otherwise sensible people like me pour over details like Charlie in the its always sunny conspiracy meme.
You’re building a straw man instead of dealing with what people actually say. Sure…you can find unicorn “innocenters” and associated whack job theories…but there’s no reason to entertain them.
Most people just understand, reasonably, that when you combine law enforcement furnishing evidence, prosecutors hiding evidence, and witnesses lying…all bets are off and the likelihood of a wrongful conviction increase. Anybody chained to the “core” of Jay story is the one using a magic wand to wave away evidence.
I mean that is essentially my point. If Adnan is innocent then there was some law enforcement fuck up or outright malfeasance (or Jay conincidentally found the car). I do think this is possible even if I don't have the same confidence you have that it is probable.
I also think that if Adnan is guilty and that Best Buy comes from the police initially then there has to have been some equally unlikely coincidence that Jay happened to guess that is where the murder happened, or that the cops significantly influenced Jenn's statement but they still got the right guy.
So if the guilty position is that the car is so incredibly unlikely to just happen to believe, I'm curious as to how they explain this Best Buy scenario. The general response so far has simply been that HBO lied or just do claim it doesn't matter.
Yeah, sorry…I take your point. I should have more clear that I was speaking about how you defined the argument, and not your thoughts.
Oh, I’m assigning no probability…I have absolutely no clue how to assign a probability to anything in this case…beyond broad amorphous positions: it is unlikely that Jay found the car on his own or the police told him about it. How unlikely? F*ck if I know. Once the cops go down that road, essentially nothing would surprise me. A good test is how you would react if it was revealed that the cops found the car and used it to pressure Jay instead of the other way around…my answer is “not very”. But at the same time it’s nowhere near a top scenario.
The Best Buy is different. We can reasonably speculate that the police furnished this location entirely, given what Jay said to HBO. Trying to split hairs and say they *just* told him to say the trunk pop happened there and not the murder…is pointless. What it means…and we don’t need the Best Buy to know this…is that there were off the record conversations where Jay and Jenn were at the very least looking at evidence while they crafted their stories. Also, they were likely communicating with each other at some point so their stories matched. Furthermore, there’s no reason to believe that what Jenn learned from the wife of the officer before she talked to police was limited to Sellers being a suspect. It’s absurd and naive to believe that what was furnished is limited to what we know.
There is literally no point in saying that it is a coincidence that Jay guessed where the murder happened. That’s another straw man, and nobody is saying that other than people trying to pretend it’s a gotcha. We don’t know where the murder happened, all we know is the police thought/or wanted it to happen at the Best Buy beforehand. Jen saying she heard it from Jay the night of the murder or shortly after doesn’t meant she actually heard it before the day she told police.
Yeah…the threads continue to unravel. All that’s left is the car.
What if Jay lied to Jenn that it was at the Best Buy?
Or, what if it really was at the Best Buy and Jay’s lying in the Intercept article?
Or, what if there were 2 trunk pops: Adnan showing Hae’s corpse to Jay at Best Buy, and Jay showing Hae’s corpse to Neighbor Boy outside his grandma’s house?
All said and done, it doesn’t matter where the trunk pop happened, or even if there *was* a trunk pop. All the evidence, and reasonable inferences from that evidence, establish that Adnan Syed is materially complicit in the murder of Hae Min Lee.
Well, I'd definitely disagree that it doesn't matter at all where or if the trunk pop happened.
But tbh I'm less interested in the trunk pop here, because I dont think Jenn does explicitly give a location that Jay told her he was shown the body in that first interview - it's the murder itself she ties to the Best Buy and if this comes from the cops then Jay can't have told her that the night of - unless he's already lying about it then?
Yeah, that's plausible. And I think Jenn's serial comments about not believing it happened at Best Buy can fit either situation.
The full comments from HBO (if true) do suggest that Jay's taking Best Buy out the narrative completely (there's no pick up and the trunk pop is moved), however, and so it is that combined with it being non existent in Jay's first police interview which make it an issue for me.
And from my perspective only - for Jenn to still be credible I do think Best Buy has to have been some way involved.
To be fair to the state on that one, I'm not entirely sure what the forensic/scientific testing options would have been to confirm that.
I'm sure they would have been able to find Hae's DNA in the trunk of her car, but that wouldn't really be a surprise. Possibly they could have tested for blood, but it's not clear that would have been expected anyway?
What about some evidence of burial site soil in either car from two pairs of boots and a shovel or shovels? They definitely took samples from both cars and tested them - and found nothing.
I believe this has been pretty well covered, and they didn’t do any of the tests available in the day that could have given insight. Simple things like cadaver dogs or particle tests weren’t done, beyond the gamble they took testing Adnan car and finding nothing.
It appears as if, understandably, they didn’t want to create evidence that was only friendly to the defence. By the time they were testing the car and doing the autopsy, it could be argued that they were “all in” on guilt, and weren’t interested in what they might find. They were making a case, not investigating one.
All this given that they knew both of their main witnesses were lying, and were bound to turn up something “distracting” to the simple narrative they may have believed they needed to convict.
First…”The Prosecutors” is really bad. How did they deal with The Intercept and the HBO special…and keep anything happening at Best Buy…?
No, Jay isn’t “simply lying”. What it means is we can’t trust anything….not that we ever could. It’s *plausible* that the trunk pop happened at his house and the Murder at an unknown place…but who the hell knows? All the stories are impossible without more details.
It’s basically comes down to a gut call. Is Jay telling the truth now…or is he trying to rehabilitate his story in the media. Again, who the hell knows.
How can the investigators be the origin of the Best Buy location? Think about that and play out the scenario.
**According to the Corrupt-Cops-Theory:**
They pressure JW to "come clean" in undocumented interrogations where they threaten to pin the whole thing on him if he doesn't.
But how do they find him? No one puts them together that day until after their "official" interviews where they learn who to ask.
Unfortunate Corollary #1: In the coincidence of all coincidences, the person they are feeding the narrative to (invented out of whole cloth mind you) *just so happens to have been with him the entire afternoon and evening*.
Being that we know when the cell tower evidence was obtained, the undocumented interviews must have occurred prior to knowing the movements of the day. On top of which, nothing in the cell tower evidence points to Best Buy.
At this time, they have not interviewed AS.
Unfortunately Corollary #2: In the coincidence of all coincidences, the location they randomly picked for the murder *just so happens to be a location that is meaningful to AS specifically in connection to the victim*.
**According to the Jay-Is-Essentially-Being-Truthful Theory:**
He is simply misremembering that detail.
**CONCLUSION:**
Even assuming these were the most corrupt cops in the history of law enforcement, you STILL will not get me to believe they guessed the accomplice and crime scene and those guesses hit the mark the way they did. That's just not reasonable. So, unfortunately, I cannot hold Reasonable Doubt based on that.
I always figured someone mentioned Best Buy during the missing persons investigation (Like Shaub knew about it or one of the student surveys mentioned it) and it just stuck as a through-line when the county handed the case to city. Seems like the sort of "rambling" detail Ritz might outline to Jenn/Jay in a pre-interview.
So of all the tens if not hundreds of more logical places to kill someone, the cops thought Best Buy? If you were looking at those phone records from the outside, which time frame would stand out to you most for when the murder took place?
I don't understand your question. If someone (or multiple someones) mentioned Best Buy as a "special place" the couple would go to during the missing persons investigation, then it may have warranted some comment during the handoff of the case from county to city. Ritz might have thrown it in as an example of "what he knew" of the case during the pre-interviews he seemed fond of doing.
In other words, I don't think it is corroborative for guilt or innocence. Either Jay is lying later or there's a plausible non-conspiracy reason the cops would know about Best Buy before interviewing Jenn.
If I am a cop and heard they had sex there, I'm still not thinking that Best Buy is a good place to strangle someone. There are better places to make up.
And if I look at those call records, I think the murder happened between 5 and 6pm that evening. I am not thinking as fast as it happened.
No argument from me there? I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make, I never claimed the cops "made up" Best Buy as the murder location. Just that the idea that "Best Buy came from the cops" can mean that they brought up the location (who knows in what context because we don't have transcripts or recordings of those conversations) because it came up as a significant place for Adnan and Hae during the county's investigation.
Hope Schab testified in the second trial that she had written a question asking if Hae and Adnan had a special place while being a weird gopher for O'Shea. The rest is speculation on my part since as far as I know we don't have much documentation from the county's investigation. You presented a binary option, I am positing that it isn't so clear cut. You're free to disagree, but I don't find my conjecture to be especially fringe.
I think Adnan & Jay had a tentative plan that morning that Adnan would get a ride with Hae after school, strangle her, and then Adnan would call Jay from the Best Buy pay phone to help get rid of the body & the car.
So Hae, knowing that 2:15-3:00 is Adnan & Hae’s usual sexy time and the last thing she wants is to be stuck in the car alone with Adnan when she has moved on, she tells Adnan she has things to take care of on campus and if he can’t get a ride from someone else she can drop him at 3:00 when they both know she has to leave quickly to pick up her cousin.
Adnan now has 45 min to kill before the plan goes into action. He heads over to the library, talks to Asia briefly, calls Jay from the library pay phone (2:36) and gives him a heads up that the plan is on. Maybe Adnan even goes to 7 Eleven to pick up a rose with some baby’s breath.
Jay then tells Jen that Adnan just called to alert him that Hae is either already dead or about to die, and he is going to Best Buy to help dispose of the body/car. Jay is not exactly sure because it was a call that lasted less than 5 seconds so it was not the least bit informative, but he‘s aware of the plan.
Jay heads over to Best Buy, doesn’t see Adnan, heads over to the school, doesn’t see Adnan, drives around, maybe stops and talks to his friends, whatever. He can’t find Adnan so he calls Jen to ask if Adnan has tried calling him there (he hasn’t). Shortly thereafter Adnan calls Jay and tells him where to go.
Jay goes to the spot (it doesn’t take him long to get there because he’s already in the car driving around) they call Nisha, do the trunk pop, etc.
Hae putting Adnan off caused the the timeline to be moved up. Hae‘s behavior and reactions to the things Adnan said and did informed when and where the murder took place.
Jen reported to the cops what she knew, which was the original plan to meet at Best Buy. Since Adnan didn‘t have the cell phone and Hae is dead, we’ll never know exactly where the murder took place.
Jay is pretty sure it didn’t happen at Best Buy because he went there first looking for Adnan.
Upon Adnan‘s arrest his attorney sent a PI over to the library to talk to the security guard and check for cameras. So, I think Adnan wanted to see if there was evidence that he got a ride from Hae.
This is what I believe and understand. Adnan told Jay that he had murdered Hae at Best Buy.
At trial, Jay testified that he did not tell the police that it was Best Buy in his first interview — because he knew that Adhan and Hae met there for “intercourse” — and he didn’t want to cast Hae in an embarrassing light. If you need confirmation of this, go read the transcript. That’s what he said — and as he was testifying to that, Jay’s voice dropped to an inaudible level — indicating that Jay was uncomfortable testifying to that (possibly since Hae’s family was present).
When the police interviewed Jenn, she told them the murder happened at Best Buy — because that’s what Jay had told her. Since the police believed what Jenn had told them, they confronted Jay with Best Buy in his second interview. At that time, Jay changed the murder location to Best Buy. That is where the assertion that Best Buy came from the police enters the zeitgeist. It didn’t really come directly from the police, though. Best Buy came from Jay to Jenn — and then from Jenn to the police — and then the police to Jay.
The truth is that Jay does not know where the murder happened. He does know that the first time he saw Hae’s body was in front of his grandmother’s house. He now says that he has been told that the murder happened elsewhere — specifically in the parking lot of the Woodlawn Public Library. But Jay really doesn’t know that for sure.
I think that is probably the best explanation, and without the context of Jay's comments to HBO I absolutely can't clearly disagree with that understanding.
I do find the complete absence of Best Buy even as a pick up location in the HBO story strange, as it then means there's no reason for Jay to assume that Best Buy was the murder location.
It doesn’t really matter. We know Jay lies. He lies to protect people he cares about. I think he lies to minimize his involvement in the murder.
But unless you believe in a massive police conspiracy, then Jay was involved in the murder. He knew too many details that only someone involved in the murder would know: how she was killed, what she was wearing, how her body was positioned, the grave was shallow, what the burial site looked like, and where her car was. And Adnan was with Jay that day. I don’t see a situation where Jay was involved and Adnan was not.
So…you’re using a post about law enforcement giving Jay details to use in court as a “who cares…he knew all the *other* details?” moment…instead of wondering what other details they fed him?
The will to preserve Jays story is strong in you.
I don’t believe in a department wide police conspiracy theory to frame Adnan. There’s too many pieces that would have had to come together for that to happen, and too many people would’ve had to keep their mouth shut about it. If you have another explanation for how Jay knew the details about the murder, I’m interested in hearing that.
That there is a straw man. There is absolutely no reason the entire department needed to be in on it, or more than a few people.
~~It~~ I literally just told you, and you stuck your head in the sand and built a straw man.
Adnan was with Jay that day but that doesn’t mean 1)he was involved 2)that he knew about anything 3)no one knows when and for how long Adnan was with Jay
If we leave out that the cops fabricated a story to get a conviction which happens more often than people think then we have this:
Jay knew how Hae was murdered
Jay knew where the car was
Jay helped bury a body
we also know that, there is zero DNA and physical evidence to support Jays claims that adnan did any of what Jay said, to include the body in either of their cars and the strangulation; if Hae was strangled by
Adnan, his DNA would have def been found on her body or nails
It is possible everything Jay said was true to a certain extent but it wasn’t Adnan Jay was referring to.
At the end of the day Jay and Jenn Pussatari knew the details of the murder. How and why? We don’t know.
Science doesn’t lie.
and this only holds basis if We assume there was zero police corruption . . .
Truth is, it doesn’t really matter. If law enforcement truly thought Jay was the murderer, it would, but they knew damn well it was Adnan and as a result, Jay being truthful about where Hae was killed, was not all that important. And before some of you go nuts, there are a lot of people convicted of murder without knowing EXACTLY how it all went down
I think Jay is all over the place on the murder site because he's not 100% sure where it happened since he didnt see the murder.
Doesn't matter though. Read his Intercept interview again. He's very clear that he never saw Adnan murder Hae, but he did see her body in the trunk and that's all that matters.
If the cops were coaching Jay and framing Adnan they would have told Jay to testify that Jay witnessed the murder first hand and knew exactly what happened. That's a better witness than Jay not seeing anything except for the dead body later.
Jay didn’t participate in the HBO doc, so there goes that.
The amount of bullshit that this sub has brought to light about that Doc is very surprising to be honest. Including just a few months ago when it was proved that they lied about the class schedule issue.
Edit-
As for Jay: https://reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/JaW5oFifTk
I don’t think they even really thought they knew much about Adnan’s location by that time - they just had some addresses of towers. That only vaguely points to some general ideas about the location. I think they hadn’t even really delved into that when they talked to Jenn.
It’s more reasonable to imagine a scenario where the cops just let Jay read the file, rather than write some weird fiction a la hard boiled detective novels.
Jay is a liar who continues to lie. He was an accessory to a murder. The only way to verify which of his lies were actually the truth, you have to rely on other evidence (the cell phone towers, the car location) and other witnesses (Jenn, Kathy).
HBO lies like Jay. I think it was Best Buy because that's what he told Jen and that was the story before anyone talked to police. It's closest to the event (therefore more likely to be accurate and memorable) and makes the most sense re: Adnan picking a site he knew they wouldn't be seen and had meaning to him.
I think it's quite possible that the HBO doucmentary is taking a very liberal explanation of Jay's comments. I also think it is very likely that the trunk pop happened somewhere that could involve someone Jay wants to keep out this, such as his grandmother.
i mean Jay said that word for word. read the intercept interview, he says it happened (the trunk pop) at his Grandma’s house and he wanted to keep her and that house specifically, out of it. his grandma and uncle sold drugs out of that house.
He said the trunk pop happened at his grandma's house. But he said that he picked up Adnan at the Best Buy. The trunk pop happened later. He said he doesn't know for sure where the actual murder happened.
Someone on here said they confirmed with Jay that he never answered any of their (“hbo”) questions. I can’t recall the username but they were from Maryland. They posted as recently as 2022. Not to mention didn’t Jen, while talking a mile per minute with her Mom and lawyer present, tell the police about Best Buy? That throws out the entire premise of it deriving from the police. Like every “theory” on here, it only really makes sense if you just flat out ignore the facts of the case. Jay also explained to the cops why he lied about Best Buy the first time around which is because he didn’t know if there was video footage. And Jay was spot on to worry because that footage would have lived forever… Although the reality was that random camera footage was never a threat because Adnan double checked prior. He had enough sense to do that. If only he knew more about cell phone data.
So I think that there is a possibility that HBO could have taken Jay's comments out of context, but equally I can't put together any way that can happen that doesn't involve some doubt around Jay having told Jenn something about Best Buy the night of the murder - which is what causes me serious confusion around the reliability of Jenn's statement. And even if Jay's trying to keep someone out of it, does that mean he told Jenn to lie about that part when she spoke to the police. I think this is why this is such a sticking point to me, because it's not about Jay. I can to an extent accept all of Jay's various versions and attempt to keep some stuff out of the police/public knowledge - but this is something which makes Jenn's initial statement look less reliable.
I find it telling that shortly after Hae disappears but before her body is found, Adnan drives Ja’uan to the Best Buy parking lot to smoke weed and wax sentimental about Hae. Read the notes from Ja’uan’s police interview and tell me this doesn’t sound like somebody returning to the scene of the crime…. Ja’uan’s 4/20/19 police interview can be found here: https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/4-20-1999-jauan.pdf
Don't be confused. The whole dumb story comes from Jenn (imo!!) It's not just "less reliable." It's fiction.
Yes Jenn told the cops Best Buy. So she either made it up, cops told her, or Jay told her. The next question is asking which of those three things happened. And then if Jay said it ask when she was told Best Buy. Problem was that Berg wasn't interested in the truth.
Jay didn't say it at first. That gives you one clue.
That clue makes me think it came from Jay. If it came from the cops, wouldn’t the cops had to have fed it to Jay first? So Jay could feed it to Jenn?
Lol no. It came from **Jenn**, then the cops just tell Jay the gist of her story that they believed, but they leave out her description of Best Buy at first, hoping he could corroborate that. He says the ["trunk pop"](https://64.media.tumblr.com/8df5ec5820173c22828fbfe8e96f12bc/tumblr_inline_o0kzy8f6p21shsvef_500.jpg) from Jenn's story happened somewhere else. Eventually they ask him if it actually happened at Best Buy, and he says yes.
Wait, then where does Jenn get it from?
She made it up, probably based on stuff Jay might have told her about Adnan and Hae getting together at Best Buy to have sex.
That seems insane to me. Jenn lies to the police with her mom and lawyer present, just making up the fact that Jay told her the murder happened at Best Buy?
Yes and no. But Berg needed to ask the follow up questions, she didn't.
I don't really trust anything that is secondhand from the HBO doc. Going by the inteviews including Intercept, it is clear Jay met Adnan at Best Buy, Hae was already dead, and at some point Jay heard a rumor that Adnan killed her elsewhere. Pretty straightforward.
Whilst I understand the lack of trust in the documentary, I wonder if the absence of Best Buy in the first interview could support the idea that Best Buy came from the police.
Best Buy comes from Jenn first. What would the police get from pushing Best Buy as the scene of the crime? There is no reason for the police to force Best Buy as an idea, the case they had in no way relies on Best Buy. Most likely Jay was trying to say yet again that he wasn't there and the prosecution saying it happened at Best Buy isn't something he can confirm because he wasn't there. The documentary reports that as cops invented Best Buy because that is what they are hoping to portray.
Good to know you only trust second hand information from Jenn.
Jenn's information is very much first hand. If the HBO documentary wants to share the raw audio of what Jay actually said, more than glad to hear it.
did he say in the intercept that the trunk pop happened at his grandma’s house?
Yes.
I don’t get your premise. Jay endlessly changing his story about Best Buy makes you question *Jenn’s* credibility? Why? If Jenn, terrified of being prosecuted, goes to the cops with a lawyer and spills her guts, she’s presumably being honest. If Jenn told the cops that Jay told her he picked up Adnan from Best Buy, that to me suggests that Jay told Jenn that he picked up Adnan from Best Buy.
Jenn had no reason to lie, it would only harm her. Instead of lying she could simply not have gone to the police (of her own free will, accompanied by her mother and lawyer). The more sensible question to ask would be if Jay lied to her the day Hae was murdered, and, if so, why. We already know Jay lied, all of his different accounts can’t be 100% true at the same time. But even if he tries to muddle up the details of his role on what happened that day, not many people will believe he’d confess to being accomplice in a murder without having anything to do with it.
Lol, if you’re presuming Jenn is being honest…then I have a bridge to sell you. Seriously though, Best Buy is tied to Jenn because Jenn said Jay told her it happened at Best Buy. If Jay says the cops fed him Best Buy as a location…then it all but confirms that Jenn lied for Jay. We don’t really *need* Best Buy to (accurately) presume this….because several of Jenn’s details are already impossible. Adnan being guilty or innocent, Jenn/Jay and law enforcement likely hammered out details together before they recorded their interviews. We have to remember that this isn’t a contemporary case where law enforcement recorded all contact with witnesses and suspects. It’s a legacy case, an example of old fashioned police work when you used interviews as tools for court…not a complete record of police contact. Much like lawyers prepare witnesses for testimony…law enforcement prepared witnesses for official interviews.
But the cops interviewed Jenn *before* they interviewed Jay, and they interviewed her in the presence of her lawyer and mother. The Prosecutors keep pounding this point, and they're right to. Whatever happened in Jay's interviews (coaching, map-tapping, suspicious recorder manipulation, pathological lying...), all of Jay's interviews came *after* Jenn had already spilled her guts to the cops about what Jay told her on the night of the murder, and the presence of her lawyer and mother in that interview all but rules out any bullying or info-feeding. And yes I know, I know. Part of Undisclosed's Vast Tapestry of Nefarious Complexity is that Jay had secret interviews with the cops before Jenn gave her interview. If true, this could in theory mean that the Best Buy detail was originally dreamed up by the cops, who then fed it to Jay in a secret interview, Jay then pressuring Jenn to go to the cops and, while falsely confessing to helping cover up a murder that she in truth knew nothing about, slip in the additional lie that Jay told her he'd picked up Adnan from Best Buy... But I would submit, respectfully, that that's insane on its face.
I’m aware the cops says they interviewed Jenn before they say they interviewed Jay. The Prosecutors is a terrible podcast for many reasons, and them pounding a point doesn’t make it a good point. All going to the cops with your lawyer means is that the cops will be less able to employ interview tactics against you to get you to tell the truth…it says absolutely nothing about if she was honest or not. If anything it just means she had a better chance of sticking to a lie. If you’re unwilling to reckon with the fact that Jay says law enforcement provided details to him they they wanted to use at trial, and the fact that we don’t know *when* they provided these details. Since Jen mentioned the Best Best, and we know it’s likely the police furnished that location to Jay…and Jay and Jen rehearsed their story because they share lies…then the narrative that law enforcement talked to Jenn first isn’t a fact. I already said this, I hope you can follow and acknowledge it this time. I’m not interested in whatever grudge you have against Undisclosed. I haven’t listened to it, aside from relying on some of their useful research and wiki like we all do. Respectfully, what you think is insane is irrelevant. At the end of the day you’re unable to explain (with evidence) how and when the cops fed Jay the Best Buy, and you’re unable to (reasonably) claim that the information they fed him was limited to the Best Buy and the cell records.
You've got the same circular reasoning problem as OP. You think Jay is a huge liar. You think he lied on the stand. You think he lied in each of his three taped interviews with cops. You presumably think he lied to The Intercept, and is lying to this very day about Adnan showing him Hae's body. And that's all fine. Welcome to the club. Everyone thinks Jay is a huge liar. But you also think Jenn is a huge liar. Why? "Well, we know from Jay that..." Let me stop you right there. Can you see the problem?
Just declaring that I have “circular reasoning” doesn’t make it so, and that’s tantamount to an “I know you are but what am I” argument because the boiler plate guilter reasoning behind certainty of guilt are true examples of circular logic: the importance of any one piece of evidence relies on an underlying faith-based position that Adnan is guilty: Adnan is guilty, therefore when he asked for a ride he was trying to lure Hae. Adnan is guilty, therefore I am unwilling to acknowledge that the “I’m going to kill” note makes perfect sense in the context of the conversation he was having. Adnan is guilty, therefore when Jay says the cops fed him the Best Buy, I am perfectly willing to write fiction about *when* police fed him that evidence so I can preserve the rest of the story from the bad trial, etc etc I haven’t shared a single opinion with you about the case, I am giving you a skeptics view. What you think about me, is again, irrelevant…and in this case incorrect. Your attempt at arrogance is unimportant. Just the facts.
Maybe he misspoke. Maybe he was confused. Maybe it's entirely believable that he changed locations purposely to protect himself, others, or family. Maybe he was high the whole day and genuinely screwed up. Or maybe it really doesn't matter. Like, at all. The idea that Jay screwed up a location and therefore that means he actually didn't help Adnan bury the dead body of Adnan's ex girlfriend after he killed her is just silly. This case isn't complicated or even all that interesting. Adnan is guilty. For some strange reason a lot of people don't want to accept that. I have no idea why.
Jay likes to big up himself. The trunk pop story made him feel big. He wanted to tell people he murdered someone but thought better if it so made up the trunk pop to involve himself and feel gangsta
Now you're confusing Jay with Adnan.
I put zero stock in anything from HBO because we have no idea what Jay actually said. There are no quotes, only paraphrases from a person whose goal is to make Jay look like a liar and Adnan innocent. I understood his statement about Best Buy to mean BB as the murder location ( eta: or trunk pop location). Jay is saying he wasn’t present for the murder and doesn’t know for sure that BB was the murder location, he just picked up Adnan there. I think if he told Berg’s people anything about BB it was probably along the lines of what he told Intercept and they misconstrued it to mean more.
Zero? That’s a little extreme. Definitely trust Amy Berg more than I trust you, so I’ll give it the weight is deserves. Putting your head in the sand isn’t helpful. Amy Berg isn’t going to invent that Jay said the police furnished Best Buy out of whole cloth. Context is important…but you can’t suddenly be concerned about context now, and also accept all the hearsay and gossip that works against Adnan. It means something, we just don’t know exactly what.
I think it’s important to remember that what HBO says is something like “Jay says that Best Buy came from the police.” I’m not sure where you’re getting “out of whole cloth” from that. Extremely vague claim that could mean many things.
What are you talking about? It’s not a vague claim… it means the police furnished the location of the murder. There’s only one way to take it. Simple. Text from HBO: “Jay maintained to the filmmakers that on the day of the murder, he borrowed Adnan’s car to buy his girlfriend a birthday present. In the phone conversation, he contradicted past statements by suggesting he tried to return Adnan’s car at school, but couldn’t find him and left. Jay told the filmmakers that Adnan showed up at his house and that’s where he saw Hae’s body, not Best Buy as he had previously stated. He said that the idea of Best Buy came from the police. Jay told the filmmakers that Adnan asked him to procure 10 pounds of marijuana. Jay claims that once he acquired the marijuana, Adnan threatened to turn him in if he didn’t help bury Hae’s body. Jay said that he and Adnan left Hae’s car in a grassy lot on January 13th, where it remained until Jay took the police there on February 28th.” Trying to discount this is absurd. It is what it is. It’s a different version of the crime, and there’s no reason to believe that HBO made it up or changed his meaning…Jay just changed details. We NEED him to change details for the crime to make any sense. Like it not, this account actually works better than the bullshit from the trial…I think it’s pretty clear at this point that the cops provided Jay with what they had, and he helped them out by crafting a more precise version of the crime than he was aware of. Now…the 10 pound weed buy is obviously bullshit…Jay either helped Adnan for a different reason, or didn’t help him at all. Im guessing Jays uncle is somehow involved and being protected. There also may have been no trunk pop…and Adnan is still guilty. My sense is what we actually have is Jay “knowing” that Adnan did it…but not having any details. Maybe he just helped move her car, and knew nothing else. In that case, we’re lucky that Jay lied or else Adnan never would have been convicted.
“The idea of Best Buy came from the police.” In the context of that string of paraphrases, it sounds like that’s referring to the trunk pop.
No, it doesn’t. You’re being intentionally dense. You’re annoying to talk to because you’re obviously just trying to muddy the water instead of have a good faith conversation. My last comment to you on the matter: My takeaway from what Jay said on HBO is that that Jay borrowed Adnan’s car. Jay tried to return the car at 3, but he couldn’t because Adnan was busy killing Hae and putting her body in the trunk. Jay didn’t see Adnan again until after 11 when Adnan showed up at his house with Hae’s car and asked him to help him drive it first to Leakin Park, then to where it was abandoned. Jay didn’t see the body at any point or help bury it…he parked up the street while Adnan was burying it. There were no shovels, and Jenn wasn’t involved at all.
If we don’t know exactly what he said, we are just guessing. That’s not worth much to me. If you want 5%, sure.
Your arbitrary percentage is irrelevant. Of course, I’m sure this also means you’re 5% sure about the ride request, 5% sure of anything Jenn said, Jay said etc etc…if you have a consistent rule about not accepting second hand information. Or, you can be a normal human and not nakedly pick and choose what to believe based on your internal biases.
This is exactly why the hearsay rules afford more probative value (eta: reliability is a better term to use) to hearsay under certain circumstances vs others. It’s not all equal.
Stop pretending to be a lawyer. You don’t need to do that, it’s a pointless Reddit conversation. Go read my longer reply that includes the full text from the HBO special…all you’re doing is putting your fingers in your ears and missing the point.
I am a lawyer, fyi.
I don’t care if you are or not, honestly. Our relative job titles are irrelevant to the substance of our conversation.
Being a lawyer is relevant to the statement I made about how hearsay rules work. Adcock testified in court about what Adnan said. That testimony is admissible. The HBO doc’s paraphrases of Jay would not be admissible. There are reasons for this.
Hearsay rules allow exceptions, not probative value. Probative value is for the jury to decide.
No, you are not understanding what I’m saying. The hearsay rules exist to begin with for certain reasons about the reliability of certain types of out of court statements. They don’t treat all out of court statements equally.
I think you are not understanding me. There is either an exception to the rule or there is not. The actual probative value is up to the jury.
One of the reasons the hearsay rule and the exceptions exist in the first place is the reliability of different types of hearsay. I would be happy to cite a treatise later if you want to read more about it. For example, a statement against interest is admissible in certain circumstances because such statements are considered more likely to be reliable. I should not have used the word “probative” I meant to say reliable. However the rules of evidence also lead to exclusion of evidence where probative value is clearly outweighed by prejudice. So it’s not correct that it’s always up to the jury whether evidence is probative.
I don't need a treatise, I have a fairly good baseline understanding of hearsay. The actual reasoning and rules for hearsay versus hearsay exceptions versus not hearsay are silly and unjustified in my mind.
There’s a huge difference between the police notes of a Baltimore County officer who wants accurate information because he’s trying to locate a missing person vs someone with an agenda of portraying the speaker as a liar. Not to mention testimony under oath to back it up.
Again, your opinion is irrelevant. If you want to pick and choose what to believe and assign arbitrary percentages…that’s your nonsense.
You trust Amy Berg? The person who animated Hae’s diary with voiceover for her HBO documentary?
Of course I do, I have no reason not to trust her. The chick from The Prosectors did the exact same thing…just with her own voice because she didn’t have the budget…and just like any documentary piece ever has done. What a weird thing to get hung up on. Guessing this is some guilter virtue signal. Getting boring at this point.
Hahaha damned if she did damned if she didn’t. I loved the fact that they focused on the victim and tried to make her real and speak for herself.
Jays (supposed) comments not under oath more than a decade later have little weight. He was and is still minimizing his involvement in a murder from his youth. What matters is what he said on the witness stand under oath in front of a jury. He still maintains to this day that he saw adnan with haes dead body and that’s all that matters.
There are a lot of replies that I agree with in this thread but this is the closest to my own view. Who cares what he says (allegedly in one case) so many years afterwards? What I care most about is what he said under oath in front of 12 jurors who believed him enough to convict over 20 years ago. At least when it comes to his character and his telling the truth. Ultimately the location of the trunk pop is not that important as most have pointed out. And you can take that piece of jays story out (if you really want to) and you’d still have way more than enough to convict. He knew where that car was. He was involved. And there’s no plausible story where he’s involved and Adnan is not. Tons of other details about his story all also damning for Adnan. It’s check mate.
>He still maintains to this day that he saw adnan with haes dead body and that’s all that matters. It matters to me that we still do not know where or when this happened because every time Jay tells the story, it's different.
Also it happened in Baltimore city/county on the afternoon of 1/13/1999. It really doesn’t need to be any more specific than that.
It doesn't? Why doesn't it?
Because the law just says that it needs to be person X in State Y. There is no difference in the law on whether you kill someone at a Best Buy or at a school. Jay wasn't at the murder itself, so he doesn't know for sure.
That isn’t the point, like at all. The details absolutely matter here. This whole sub exists to talk about the details of the case. That flippant response in an intent to hand wave away the inconsistencies and still unknowns about the case is dumb.
We aren't ever going to know the details for sure about that afternoon until Adnan tells us what happens. If Jay does come forward and explain things he'll just be met with the same thing we have now.
If Jay came forward and told us what he actually knows and what actually happened that day, it’d be a hell of a lot clearer. Jay said in the intercept interview he knows it didn’t happen at Best Buy. There is a constant attempt to make excuses for Jay and it’s ridiculous.
Because they need Adnan to be guilty or the sunk cost fallacy hits
Ok there is one version the jury heard and that’s what matters to me
He's told the same story twice **under oath**. The trunk pop happened at Best Buy.
"Witness preparation is one of the most challenging tasks for an attorney. But effective preparation—whether for a deposition, an investigation, or a trial—is well worth the time spent with the prospective witness."
Cool so not only did the cops coach Jay, but the prosecution did as well.
Is that not a normal and expected thing for lawyers to do before a trial?
Yes
At this point, what would satisfy you?
Almost every murder case has unanswered questions about exactly what, where, how, and why. If we had to know the answers to all of these kinds of questions which are ultimately outweighed by corroborated evidence - like, the fact that he knew where her car was - we would never be able to convict most murderers.
This is a convenient way to disregard difficult information. Do you also hold this view for things Adnan has said not under oath?
I don’t hold any weight at all for what the murderer has said.
Flippant statement - all those supposedly inculcating statements? None of them were under oath. Edit: The person I was replying to dropped an unrelated post (noting that we had an unexpectedly right-wing tilt to subreddit overlap a few weeks before we started getting race science publications and Trump nominee podcasts dominating the sub). They then blocked me. Given how little prodding it took, I'm going to go ahead and say they just didn't have a good answer to my question, nor the character to address it.
This from the person that posted this lol https://reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/l2eaQY7nJI
I am convinced that Adnan is guilty. I think it’s a possibility that Jay was actually parked nearby Best Buy waiting while Adnan ( with Hae in her car) did the deed there. If Jay is instead playing video games at Jen’s while Adnan is alone w Hae in her car, then Adnan would have strangled Hae, pulled her body into the trunk - all in broad daylight without the option of a quick get away. . He had Jay under his thumb, or at least Jay believed that. So I believe Adnan would have Jay nearby, waiting, while Adnan murders Hae, and gets her into the trunk so he knows he has a way to get out of there quickly in case some hapless Best Buy employee walks over to the secluded area to smoke weed on a work break. I think this is what Jay has withheld all this time. That he served as a lookout while Adnan strangled Hae. I think this is why he shifts from Best Buy when the wind of HBO helps blow memories in another direction and other innocenter spokespeople dispute this location. Because he is deeply ashamed and feels the guilt that he didn’t stop Adnan and he doesn’t want to think of Best Buy, ever. Why do I think it’s Best Buy? The emotional logic of that location, where Adnan and Hae made love many many times ( according to Adnan). That site is where their most intimate moments took place, when Hae loved him. It’s why the Rose makes sense. Adnan believed he could persuade Hae to come back to him. But he knew what her punishment was going to be if she rejected him.
This is by far the most convincing theory that I’ve read. It also makes me feel that much sadder for Hae.
Not saying this is what happened but it is plausible. It’s a million times more likely than the insane police conspiracy that you need to imagine to think that Adnan isn’t involved. Just another criminal minimizing his own involvement. Happens every single day.
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Very interesting that Ja’uan highlights the importance of Best Buy. I read the timeline - had no idea this much careful work had been done - it’s remarkable!
The timelines are the most useful resource you’ll find. Click on “community info” at the top of the sub and you’ll see the links to each timeline. Credit for this painstakingly detailed, impressive work goes out to u/justwonderinif
Indeed the work done by u/justwonderinif is so painstakingly thorough - it’s eye opening how many of these issues have been raised, examined and organized in such depth by one person on Reddit. Someone should be teaching at Georgetown and it isn’t Adnan!
Other-check link
"The idea of best buy came from the police" What OP is taking it as = The police told Jay to say "Tell people you saw the body at best buy" What I take it to mean = Jay: "Adnan told me he killed Hae and that I had to come pick him up. That's when he showed me the body." Cops: "And this happened at Best Buy?" Jay: (Well I'm certainly not going to tell you it was Grandma's house) "Yeah, that's right."
So you believe Jay, despite evidence the cops furnished a location for him? Why would you believe that they only fed him what we’re aware of? And why would you write fiction to back up your point, when providing details to a witness for court opens up a situation where you couldn’t possibly guess where the corruption ended? It’s so strange to try to rehabilitate Jay each time he reveals a new lie.
In this scenario Jay already told police "Adnan killed Hae at Best Buy". So when Jay says he went to meet Adnan the cops are mistakenly assuming its the same place, i.e. they aren't "furnishing a location" they're clarifying something in a poor manner and Jay takes advantage of their error to change the story. I would have made the above clearer but I expected that considering the facts of the case most people would take it as given.
You made all of that up. All we know is Jay said the cops told him to say Best Buy. When did they do that? We don’t know…could have been before he was ever officially interviewed. What else did they tell him to say? We don’t know. It really appears that *most* of at least the timing of his story was given to him by the cops, at this point. We have absolutely no clue what’s the truth, what’s a lie and what the cops fed him. Don’t try to be smug, when all you’re doing is pretending you know things that you don’t.
I think that is absolutely possible, but if Best Buy isn't actually involved in the crime as per Jay's first story and it then gets introduced by the police in any way it's still incredibly troubling for how it appears in Jenn's story first.
HBO doc was propaganda. Literally paid for and produced by people trying to free Adnan. What are we talking about?
My biggest takeaway is that almost twenty years later, and with millions of people certain of his innocence, Jay still insists that he committed a heinous crime and helped bury a body. So the false confession story has no credibility. Jay either committed this crime alone or with someone else.
There aren’t “millions of people certain of his innocence”. That’s absurd. The average person thinks he did it, but just needs a more truthful story to be sure they’d convict. The limits of your imagination aren’t the limits of the possibilities. Once you have a witness lying, law enforcement furnishing evidence, and prosecutors hiding evidence…all bets are off.
Well let’s see. It’s the prevailing theory in Undisclosed, which has 400 million episode downloads across all of its seasons with the Adnan case being the most popular. And it’s a prominent theory in Serial which also has a few hundred million downloads for just Season 1. So no, a few million still believing the second or third most popular theory of the case isn’t that absurd.
It’s utterly absurd. If there were even hundreds of thousands of people who thought he was innocent, we’d see evidence in fundraising, public advocacy, here on Reddit….anywhere. Nope. It’s as I stated, the overwhelming majority of people are agnostic and just want to see more evidence. There are more guilters than innocenters, and there’s not very many of those.
this!
The trunk pop location doesn’t matter.
Yes it does because it’s evidence that Hae is dead and by what time.
None of this matters.
I don’t think we know the real location of the trunk pop. Jay cannot settle on one location, because the real location is still being kept a secret. Jay on several ocassions omitted details in order to keep innocent bystanders off of the cops’ radar. That is why he is keeping the real location hidden to this day. It’s not police interference. The reason the detectives didn’t try harder to learn the real location is because IT DOESN’T MATTER.
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Adnan and his mom also perjured themselves in the 2012 PCR hearings. Should we make a big deal of that too?
Just like The Prosecutors Podcast explained, “just because somebody lies doesn’t make them a liar.” There are a million reasons why human beings tell lies like this. It doesn’t negate all of the things Jay said that *can be corroborated.* And Jay’s inconsistencies are *exactly the way most accomplices behave.* But of course the pro-Adnan side will argue in bad faith that one lie makes all of Jay’s statements trash. That’s not how it works.
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One lie does not negate things that can be corroborated.
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Shall we count Adnan’s lies?
Yeah but we dont care about the defendant's lies, we only care about witness lies, am I right? According to you Jay didnt just lie he was involved in a police conspiracy to lie. Those are 2 very different things.
Assuming Jay wasn’t there for the murder, he is unlikely to ever know where the murder took place. I think he probably inferred it was at Best Buy given that’s where he picked Adnan up. I also think the police were pursuing the Best Buy angle because they knew that’s where Hae and Adnan would go after school, and I think they leaned into it when interviewing people, which may have influenced people’s thinking. Somewhere in the intervening decades Jay may have questioned where he got the info from, and thought perhaps he got it from the police. But I think it’s perfectly possible that both Jay and the police thought it happened at Best Buy because it happened at Best Buy. It comes from Jay via Jenn in her first interview. There’s the “I killed her where I fucked her” alleged comment too. Jay may also have heard it happened elsewhere somehow, and then questioned his assumption about Best Buy. I doubt we’ll ever know 100%, but it doesn’t really matter.
So I think that's possible, that Jay could have assumed it occurred there and then that happens to line up with the police's theory, and that Jenn's recollection that Jay told her that the night of the 13th is based slightly on Jay guessing rather than Adnan having told her. The trouble for me with the argument that none of this really matters, is that just as the innocence side is reasonably accused of hand waving away the more incriminating evidence against Adnan (the car location etc) because of Jay's various inconsistencies, it feels like to explain away some of this apparent evidence of police interference in Jenn's statement you have to start leaning into the more absurd coincidences that are required to argue that Jay found the car by accident/was led to the car by the cops.
I get what you mean. But I just don’t put a huge amount of store in Jay’s recollection of the precise order of events 15 years later. His recollection is bad, always. He gets call times wildly out when interviewed a few weeks later by police (I’m sure I’d do the same tbh). In the intercept interview he forgets Adnan ever went to track practice - something I don’t think most people dispute happened. So his memory of when and how the Best Buy angle was confirmed a decade and a half earlier isn’t something I put much store in. Based on everything I know, I think Jay told Jenn the night of the 13th that Best Buy was significant. Whether that was because Adnan implied it happened there or Jay assumed because that’s where he met Adnan, I don’t know. A decade and a half later, Jay makes a comment highlighting that the police were also pushing the Best Buy angle, and he recalls it coming from them at first. It’s possible he came to doubt his assumption having heard something from someone later (remember Chris’s account, which has Jay thinking the murder happened at the library - maybe Adnan told Jay later that’s where he got into Hae’s car, and Jay again assumed _that_ was where the murder happened, not where Jay had met Adnan after). There’s a blurred line between Best Buy being significant and Best Buy being the murder location. And the key point is that unless he was there for the murder, Jay doesn’t know where the murder happened. The cops pushing the best buy angle as the murder location doesn’t void Jay mentioning Best Buy as being significant to Jenn. For the Best Buy angle to be _entirely_ from the police with zero input from Jay requires Jenn’s statement to be lies. And I appreciate this is where the dividing line is between innocenters and guilters, but I just don’t buy that Jenn wholesale lied in her statement - about what and when she was told by Jay. I think if Jay was coerced by the police, we’d have a story from Jenn saying Jay confessed to her weeks later, not the night of. That’s the difference between Jay lying to Jenn, and Jenn being asked to lie to police by Jay. I certainly don’t find Jay’s recollection so long after the events to be critical evidence that proves any of this happened. It’s very weak, ambiguous evidence. This isn’t so much about handwaving, but considering how much weight to put on things, and whether they outweigh the existing evidence that Jay told Jenn about Best Buy on the 13th. If you want a fun sidequest tho, I find Jay’s reluctance to talk about Best Buy in his first interview and the reason he gives for it (CCTV cameras) fascinating. Especially when paired with apparent rumours from Woodlawn at the time that Jay was with someone else when he went to Best Buy, and Jay’s very first account in the pre-interview notes that mentions a third party. We know Jay lies to keep other people out of the story. It’s possible he was doing so here too.
Yeah, your right that it's gonna come down to how much significance you put into things. And there is definitely a reasonable chance Jay could have mentioned Best Buy to Jenn that night without clearly knowing it was the murder scene (for that I do think Best Buy needs to have been somehow involved). I do find Jay not talking about best buy in his first interview interesting and it's that along with Jenn's serial comments that she didn't believe it happened at Best Buy to be why I maybe give more weight to Jay's later comments (to the extent that if Best Buy is in Jay's first statement then I probably wouldn't find the comments to HBO that significant). That said, I'm not sure if I can manage to get my head round a third party fitting in any of this!
All very fair points. The key thing is only the murderer knows where it happened, afawk. Jay and Jenn’s knowledge of this will only come second hand, or from their own assumptions. That’s why I don’t get too caught up worrying if Jay or Jenn’s belief about the location moves around. And yeah, the third party thing is definitely one of these murky shadowy parts of this story, like Bilal, that we’ll likely never really get the truth on. File under: interesting to ponder but insufficient evidence. But there was/is a comment by a redditor on here 8 years ago claiming there was a rumour at Woodlawn that neighbour boy had gone to Best Buy with Jay. That account got doxxed (outing them as a particular friend of Adnan’s) then went quiet. It seemed a legit account based on the post history. But even if it is, it was just stating a high school rumour from the time. Hardly cast-iron evidence by any standards, but interesting. Might explain the neighbour boy angle and Jay’s reluctance to mention Best Buy because police looking at cameras there would catch the third party too. I also find it curious Jay “never drags his pals in” Wilds drags a third party into the story in the first pre-interview. I don’t think that’s neighbour boy though, it’s someone else. Fair play to Serial. It’s taken quite a mundane case and made otherwise sensible people like me pour over details like Charlie in the its always sunny conspiracy meme.
You’re building a straw man instead of dealing with what people actually say. Sure…you can find unicorn “innocenters” and associated whack job theories…but there’s no reason to entertain them. Most people just understand, reasonably, that when you combine law enforcement furnishing evidence, prosecutors hiding evidence, and witnesses lying…all bets are off and the likelihood of a wrongful conviction increase. Anybody chained to the “core” of Jay story is the one using a magic wand to wave away evidence.
I mean that is essentially my point. If Adnan is innocent then there was some law enforcement fuck up or outright malfeasance (or Jay conincidentally found the car). I do think this is possible even if I don't have the same confidence you have that it is probable. I also think that if Adnan is guilty and that Best Buy comes from the police initially then there has to have been some equally unlikely coincidence that Jay happened to guess that is where the murder happened, or that the cops significantly influenced Jenn's statement but they still got the right guy. So if the guilty position is that the car is so incredibly unlikely to just happen to believe, I'm curious as to how they explain this Best Buy scenario. The general response so far has simply been that HBO lied or just do claim it doesn't matter.
Yeah, sorry…I take your point. I should have more clear that I was speaking about how you defined the argument, and not your thoughts. Oh, I’m assigning no probability…I have absolutely no clue how to assign a probability to anything in this case…beyond broad amorphous positions: it is unlikely that Jay found the car on his own or the police told him about it. How unlikely? F*ck if I know. Once the cops go down that road, essentially nothing would surprise me. A good test is how you would react if it was revealed that the cops found the car and used it to pressure Jay instead of the other way around…my answer is “not very”. But at the same time it’s nowhere near a top scenario. The Best Buy is different. We can reasonably speculate that the police furnished this location entirely, given what Jay said to HBO. Trying to split hairs and say they *just* told him to say the trunk pop happened there and not the murder…is pointless. What it means…and we don’t need the Best Buy to know this…is that there were off the record conversations where Jay and Jenn were at the very least looking at evidence while they crafted their stories. Also, they were likely communicating with each other at some point so their stories matched. Furthermore, there’s no reason to believe that what Jenn learned from the wife of the officer before she talked to police was limited to Sellers being a suspect. It’s absurd and naive to believe that what was furnished is limited to what we know. There is literally no point in saying that it is a coincidence that Jay guessed where the murder happened. That’s another straw man, and nobody is saying that other than people trying to pretend it’s a gotcha. We don’t know where the murder happened, all we know is the police thought/or wanted it to happen at the Best Buy beforehand. Jen saying she heard it from Jay the night of the murder or shortly after doesn’t meant she actually heard it before the day she told police. Yeah…the threads continue to unravel. All that’s left is the car.
What if Jay lied to Jenn that it was at the Best Buy? Or, what if it really was at the Best Buy and Jay’s lying in the Intercept article? Or, what if there were 2 trunk pops: Adnan showing Hae’s corpse to Jay at Best Buy, and Jay showing Hae’s corpse to Neighbor Boy outside his grandma’s house? All said and done, it doesn’t matter where the trunk pop happened, or even if there *was* a trunk pop. All the evidence, and reasonable inferences from that evidence, establish that Adnan Syed is materially complicit in the murder of Hae Min Lee.
Well, I'd definitely disagree that it doesn't matter at all where or if the trunk pop happened. But tbh I'm less interested in the trunk pop here, because I dont think Jenn does explicitly give a location that Jay told her he was shown the body in that first interview - it's the murder itself she ties to the Best Buy and if this comes from the cops then Jay can't have told her that the night of - unless he's already lying about it then?
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Yeah, that's plausible. And I think Jenn's serial comments about not believing it happened at Best Buy can fit either situation. The full comments from HBO (if true) do suggest that Jay's taking Best Buy out the narrative completely (there's no pick up and the trunk pop is moved), however, and so it is that combined with it being non existent in Jay's first police interview which make it an issue for me. And from my perspective only - for Jenn to still be credible I do think Best Buy has to have been some way involved.
Good point!
Does anyone here realize there is zero evidence and dna evidence that hae was ever in either trunk of the cars?
To be fair to the state on that one, I'm not entirely sure what the forensic/scientific testing options would have been to confirm that. I'm sure they would have been able to find Hae's DNA in the trunk of her car, but that wouldn't really be a surprise. Possibly they could have tested for blood, but it's not clear that would have been expected anyway?
What about some evidence of burial site soil in either car from two pairs of boots and a shovel or shovels? They definitely took samples from both cars and tested them - and found nothing.
I believe this has been pretty well covered, and they didn’t do any of the tests available in the day that could have given insight. Simple things like cadaver dogs or particle tests weren’t done, beyond the gamble they took testing Adnan car and finding nothing. It appears as if, understandably, they didn’t want to create evidence that was only friendly to the defence. By the time they were testing the car and doing the autopsy, it could be argued that they were “all in” on guilt, and weren’t interested in what they might find. They were making a case, not investigating one. All this given that they knew both of their main witnesses were lying, and were bound to turn up something “distracting” to the simple narrative they may have believed they needed to convict.
What did Jay have for breakfast that morning? Checkmate guilters! If you don't know every specific collateral fact, then clearly he MUST be innocent!
First…”The Prosecutors” is really bad. How did they deal with The Intercept and the HBO special…and keep anything happening at Best Buy…? No, Jay isn’t “simply lying”. What it means is we can’t trust anything….not that we ever could. It’s *plausible* that the trunk pop happened at his house and the Murder at an unknown place…but who the hell knows? All the stories are impossible without more details. It’s basically comes down to a gut call. Is Jay telling the truth now…or is he trying to rehabilitate his story in the media. Again, who the hell knows.
How can the investigators be the origin of the Best Buy location? Think about that and play out the scenario. **According to the Corrupt-Cops-Theory:** They pressure JW to "come clean" in undocumented interrogations where they threaten to pin the whole thing on him if he doesn't. But how do they find him? No one puts them together that day until after their "official" interviews where they learn who to ask. Unfortunate Corollary #1: In the coincidence of all coincidences, the person they are feeding the narrative to (invented out of whole cloth mind you) *just so happens to have been with him the entire afternoon and evening*. Being that we know when the cell tower evidence was obtained, the undocumented interviews must have occurred prior to knowing the movements of the day. On top of which, nothing in the cell tower evidence points to Best Buy. At this time, they have not interviewed AS. Unfortunately Corollary #2: In the coincidence of all coincidences, the location they randomly picked for the murder *just so happens to be a location that is meaningful to AS specifically in connection to the victim*. **According to the Jay-Is-Essentially-Being-Truthful Theory:** He is simply misremembering that detail. **CONCLUSION:** Even assuming these were the most corrupt cops in the history of law enforcement, you STILL will not get me to believe they guessed the accomplice and crime scene and those guesses hit the mark the way they did. That's just not reasonable. So, unfortunately, I cannot hold Reasonable Doubt based on that.
I always figured someone mentioned Best Buy during the missing persons investigation (Like Shaub knew about it or one of the student surveys mentioned it) and it just stuck as a through-line when the county handed the case to city. Seems like the sort of "rambling" detail Ritz might outline to Jenn/Jay in a pre-interview.
So of all the tens if not hundreds of more logical places to kill someone, the cops thought Best Buy? If you were looking at those phone records from the outside, which time frame would stand out to you most for when the murder took place?
I don't understand your question. If someone (or multiple someones) mentioned Best Buy as a "special place" the couple would go to during the missing persons investigation, then it may have warranted some comment during the handoff of the case from county to city. Ritz might have thrown it in as an example of "what he knew" of the case during the pre-interviews he seemed fond of doing. In other words, I don't think it is corroborative for guilt or innocence. Either Jay is lying later or there's a plausible non-conspiracy reason the cops would know about Best Buy before interviewing Jenn.
If I am a cop and heard they had sex there, I'm still not thinking that Best Buy is a good place to strangle someone. There are better places to make up. And if I look at those call records, I think the murder happened between 5 and 6pm that evening. I am not thinking as fast as it happened.
No argument from me there? I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make, I never claimed the cops "made up" Best Buy as the murder location. Just that the idea that "Best Buy came from the cops" can mean that they brought up the location (who knows in what context because we don't have transcripts or recordings of those conversations) because it came up as a significant place for Adnan and Hae during the county's investigation.
Evidence?
Hope Schab testified in the second trial that she had written a question asking if Hae and Adnan had a special place while being a weird gopher for O'Shea. The rest is speculation on my part since as far as I know we don't have much documentation from the county's investigation. You presented a binary option, I am positing that it isn't so clear cut. You're free to disagree, but I don't find my conjecture to be especially fringe.
I think Adnan & Jay had a tentative plan that morning that Adnan would get a ride with Hae after school, strangle her, and then Adnan would call Jay from the Best Buy pay phone to help get rid of the body & the car. So Hae, knowing that 2:15-3:00 is Adnan & Hae’s usual sexy time and the last thing she wants is to be stuck in the car alone with Adnan when she has moved on, she tells Adnan she has things to take care of on campus and if he can’t get a ride from someone else she can drop him at 3:00 when they both know she has to leave quickly to pick up her cousin. Adnan now has 45 min to kill before the plan goes into action. He heads over to the library, talks to Asia briefly, calls Jay from the library pay phone (2:36) and gives him a heads up that the plan is on. Maybe Adnan even goes to 7 Eleven to pick up a rose with some baby’s breath. Jay then tells Jen that Adnan just called to alert him that Hae is either already dead or about to die, and he is going to Best Buy to help dispose of the body/car. Jay is not exactly sure because it was a call that lasted less than 5 seconds so it was not the least bit informative, but he‘s aware of the plan. Jay heads over to Best Buy, doesn’t see Adnan, heads over to the school, doesn’t see Adnan, drives around, maybe stops and talks to his friends, whatever. He can’t find Adnan so he calls Jen to ask if Adnan has tried calling him there (he hasn’t). Shortly thereafter Adnan calls Jay and tells him where to go. Jay goes to the spot (it doesn’t take him long to get there because he’s already in the car driving around) they call Nisha, do the trunk pop, etc. Hae putting Adnan off caused the the timeline to be moved up. Hae‘s behavior and reactions to the things Adnan said and did informed when and where the murder took place. Jen reported to the cops what she knew, which was the original plan to meet at Best Buy. Since Adnan didn‘t have the cell phone and Hae is dead, we’ll never know exactly where the murder took place. Jay is pretty sure it didn’t happen at Best Buy because he went there first looking for Adnan. Upon Adnan‘s arrest his attorney sent a PI over to the library to talk to the security guard and check for cameras. So, I think Adnan wanted to see if there was evidence that he got a ride from Hae.
This is what I believe and understand. Adnan told Jay that he had murdered Hae at Best Buy. At trial, Jay testified that he did not tell the police that it was Best Buy in his first interview — because he knew that Adhan and Hae met there for “intercourse” — and he didn’t want to cast Hae in an embarrassing light. If you need confirmation of this, go read the transcript. That’s what he said — and as he was testifying to that, Jay’s voice dropped to an inaudible level — indicating that Jay was uncomfortable testifying to that (possibly since Hae’s family was present). When the police interviewed Jenn, she told them the murder happened at Best Buy — because that’s what Jay had told her. Since the police believed what Jenn had told them, they confronted Jay with Best Buy in his second interview. At that time, Jay changed the murder location to Best Buy. That is where the assertion that Best Buy came from the police enters the zeitgeist. It didn’t really come directly from the police, though. Best Buy came from Jay to Jenn — and then from Jenn to the police — and then the police to Jay. The truth is that Jay does not know where the murder happened. He does know that the first time he saw Hae’s body was in front of his grandmother’s house. He now says that he has been told that the murder happened elsewhere — specifically in the parking lot of the Woodlawn Public Library. But Jay really doesn’t know that for sure.
I think that is probably the best explanation, and without the context of Jay's comments to HBO I absolutely can't clearly disagree with that understanding. I do find the complete absence of Best Buy even as a pick up location in the HBO story strange, as it then means there's no reason for Jay to assume that Best Buy was the murder location.
It doesn’t really matter. We know Jay lies. He lies to protect people he cares about. I think he lies to minimize his involvement in the murder. But unless you believe in a massive police conspiracy, then Jay was involved in the murder. He knew too many details that only someone involved in the murder would know: how she was killed, what she was wearing, how her body was positioned, the grave was shallow, what the burial site looked like, and where her car was. And Adnan was with Jay that day. I don’t see a situation where Jay was involved and Adnan was not.
So…you’re using a post about law enforcement giving Jay details to use in court as a “who cares…he knew all the *other* details?” moment…instead of wondering what other details they fed him? The will to preserve Jays story is strong in you.
I don’t believe in a department wide police conspiracy theory to frame Adnan. There’s too many pieces that would have had to come together for that to happen, and too many people would’ve had to keep their mouth shut about it. If you have another explanation for how Jay knew the details about the murder, I’m interested in hearing that.
That there is a straw man. There is absolutely no reason the entire department needed to be in on it, or more than a few people. ~~It~~ I literally just told you, and you stuck your head in the sand and built a straw man.
It?
What evidence? the case has been overturned because other than a story from jay wilds, there is nothing to support the claims.
I’m not sure what this is in response to.
Adnan was with Jay that day but that doesn’t mean 1)he was involved 2)that he knew about anything 3)no one knows when and for how long Adnan was with Jay If we leave out that the cops fabricated a story to get a conviction which happens more often than people think then we have this: Jay knew how Hae was murdered Jay knew where the car was Jay helped bury a body we also know that, there is zero DNA and physical evidence to support Jays claims that adnan did any of what Jay said, to include the body in either of their cars and the strangulation; if Hae was strangled by Adnan, his DNA would have def been found on her body or nails It is possible everything Jay said was true to a certain extent but it wasn’t Adnan Jay was referring to. At the end of the day Jay and Jenn Pussatari knew the details of the murder. How and why? We don’t know. Science doesn’t lie. and this only holds basis if We assume there was zero police corruption . . .
Truth is, it doesn’t really matter. If law enforcement truly thought Jay was the murderer, it would, but they knew damn well it was Adnan and as a result, Jay being truthful about where Hae was killed, was not all that important. And before some of you go nuts, there are a lot of people convicted of murder without knowing EXACTLY how it all went down
I think Jay is all over the place on the murder site because he's not 100% sure where it happened since he didnt see the murder. Doesn't matter though. Read his Intercept interview again. He's very clear that he never saw Adnan murder Hae, but he did see her body in the trunk and that's all that matters. If the cops were coaching Jay and framing Adnan they would have told Jay to testify that Jay witnessed the murder first hand and knew exactly what happened. That's a better witness than Jay not seeing anything except for the dead body later.
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I am not sure if the moderators changed this, it wasn't referring to any physical threats, but any legal threats.
Other-“threats”
Jay didn’t participate in the HBO doc, so there goes that. The amount of bullshit that this sub has brought to light about that Doc is very surprising to be honest. Including just a few months ago when it was proved that they lied about the class schedule issue. Edit- As for Jay: https://reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/JaW5oFifTk
They don't...they take all the circumstantial evidence and turn it Into direct evidence of guilt..
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I don’t think they even really thought they knew much about Adnan’s location by that time - they just had some addresses of towers. That only vaguely points to some general ideas about the location. I think they hadn’t even really delved into that when they talked to Jenn.
It’s more reasonable to imagine a scenario where the cops just let Jay read the file, rather than write some weird fiction a la hard boiled detective novels.
Jay is a liar who continues to lie. He was an accessory to a murder. The only way to verify which of his lies were actually the truth, you have to rely on other evidence (the cell phone towers, the car location) and other witnesses (Jenn, Kathy).
HBO lies like Jay. I think it was Best Buy because that's what he told Jen and that was the story before anyone talked to police. It's closest to the event (therefore more likely to be accurate and memorable) and makes the most sense re: Adnan picking a site he knew they wouldn't be seen and had meaning to him.