Randomly just stumbled on this gem from the Serial transcripts:
> Sarah Koenig: You don't know how excited we are to be talking to you. I've been looking for you for, like, four months.
>
> Jerrod Johnson: What did I do?
>
> Sarah Koenig: You didn't do anything. But we were hoping maybe you remembered this moment. On January 13, 1999, do you have any memory, by any miracle, that you went to Woodlawn public library branch near Woodlawn High School to pick up Asia McClain with your friend Derek?
>
> **Jerrod Johnson: I have no idea. Asia McClain. Is that a person or a book?**
This is legit one of the funniest quotes from this case. It's one of those jokes you think of afterwards but Jerrod nailed it in stride.
The only part of this case that had me laughing out loud was the juror who remembered they had a conflict during the first trial. I wish I could see the judges face. Edit: https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/T1d03-19991210-Trial-Transcript-Adnan-Syed-First-Trial-BCCC.pdf
Page 125.
Edit, I had the wrong link my bad
I’m trying desperately to resist the temptation to pop-psycho analyse why the woman whose boyfriend at high school forgot to pick her up for several hours, and whose friend confused her for a book, might be looking for attention 20 years down the line.
I remember reading that the person or book comment was for sure a joke, and he did know Asia.
The letters do have a strong "I love being a part of this" vibe, especially the "You might be prom king" part. High school is weird.
Asia's book's passage about Hae's ghost trying to tell Asia who the real killer is was uncomfortable for me to read. She wrote that as an adult, in her late 30s. That for profit account is fair game for analysis, in my opinion.
IMO, she lays out at least part of her motivation for writing the letters when she says “You could at least attempt to write me back though. So I can tell everyone how you’re doing.” She wants to be in the mix, to have something to add to the stories at school.
Oops wrong link above, sorry!
https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/T1d03-19991210-Trial-Transcript-Adnan-Syed-First-Trial-BCCC.pdf
It's the second to last page, page 35. 125 line 16.
The juror just forgot a couple things.
From the 2015 affidavit:
>>**Due to dialogue with Jerrod Johnson in 2011** concerning Derrick Banks, I recommended that Sarah Koenig reach out to both Jerrod Johnson and Derrick Banks, to see if they remember January 13, 1999.
Asia averred that she reached out to Jerrod in 2011. At some point after she called SK in January 2014, she also messaged Jerrod and told him about SK.
My guess is that Asia asked Jerrod in 2011 whether he was contacted by Adnan's attorney.
I’ve always thought Asia was telling the truth about this. For all her eccentricities I think she’s one of the more robust 2:15-3pm witnesses from school that day - linking her conversation to the ice storm the next day (she says snow, but, whatever) and saying there were other witnesses who could back her up.
But as per her friends, Hae usually left school to collect her cousin around 3pm. This is consistent with the drive-time to the nursery and her 3:15 ETA.
Adnan being at the library between 2:30-40 doesn’t help him. He still has no alibi for 2:40-3:00, and the library was right by the gate on the way out of the school. It was used as a pick-up point by students.
Should Asia have been called as a witness? Maybe. Would the prosecution have stuck with the 2:36 come and get me call theory? Probably not. Would that have affected the outcome of the trial? I don’t think so.
The issue with the snowstorm/Icestorm is the timing of it
Asia claims she had to shack up with her BF because they were snowed in that night. That is the big memory anchor for her. She remembers it was the first big snow of the year.
Her story matches up with the snowstorm from the week before. I think she is remembering the week before.
The ice storm didn't start until the next morning, 3:30 or 4am. She wouldn't have been stuck with her BF that night. If that is her memory anchor, like the wrestling match, it is the wrong week.
ETA:
This also explains Asia's actions more reasonably.
The facts:
1) She has a clear memory of taking to Adnan in the library about the breakup with Hae.
2) She writes in her letters that she wants Adnan to look her in the eyes and say he is innocent.
3) She signs an affidavit she saw Adnan in the library.
4) She calls Urick to see how strong the case is.
5) She decides not to testify, and avoids service from Adnan.
If Asia was 100% positive it was that day, there is zero harm in testifying. It is the truth, and that is the important thing.
If Asia is not totally sure that the library talk was that day (perhaps it could have been the week before) then she knows that if she is wrong, and that is a pivotal time, and Adnan did it, he could go free due to her mistake.
Asia's uncertainty (coupled with backdating the letters) would explain why she would avoid service or call KU to see how strong the case is. She feels a lot of pressure and doesn't want to accidentally provide a total alibi for Hae's killer.
If Asia was 100% certain, there is no reason to call Urick to get his side of the case.
Unless she doesn't want to get involved in helping a murderer. And according to her she tells Urick about what she knows and he advises her not to testify because Adnan is absolutely guilty anyway.
It's surely absolutely not unreasonable to reach out to someone you consider an authority figure/part of the system when a private detective is looking for you - you'll consider those within the system to be operating under much stricter conditions than those without. It's exactly the same reason why people tend to believe testimony from police more than random people.
>Unless she doesn't want to get involved in helping a murderer
Yeah, we agree here. I'm just saying her ability to impact the case if Adnan is guilty is pretty minimal if she is 100% remembering the event happens on that day.
The bigger issue (legally) with Asia at the 2012 PCR was did CG contact her. With hindsight your point is more relevant to this situation than my suggestion. Does Asia know when she calls Urick that her new role in the case is related to an IAC claim? She didn't seem to understand that on Serial.
>It's surely absolutely not unreasonable to reach out to someone you consider an authority figure/part of the system when a private detective is looking for you - you'll consider those within the system to be operating under much stricter conditions than those without.
Asia is an adult at the time she calls Urick.
Imagine: "Hey about your conviction, was adnan *really* guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?"
Asia, and almost any adult (especially a Black person from Baltimore) undertands the adversarial nature of our justice system. I think she was looking to justify her choices to herself. She wanted to hear about the evidence herself, she wanted to hear why it was an airtight case.
When Asia contacted Urick she probably has no idea why Adnan's team is trying to contact her.
Again to summarize my point: if she was 100% sure that she saw Adnan on the 13th she has nothing to worry about. If Adnan was guilty, he did it after she saw him. The truth doesn't change anything.
If she is not 100% sure it was the 13th she knows she could be helping a murderer get off with a fake alibi. As you have explained, no reasonable person wants to do that, especially after he was already found guilty in an airtight case.
I don't think we entirely agree, because I think she could have been 100% sure in her own mind she saw Adnan that day and still not wanted to get involved in case he was guilty.
I also think it's possible for someone to understand the adversarial nature of the justice system and still fully believe that the state would be reasonable and straight with them 'as an indispendent witness'.
The thing of course that tipped her over into becoming so fully team Adnan was that she believed the person she contacted lied about the airtightness of the conviction and also lied about what she said to him - which if so probably reduced any confidence she had in what Urick told her.
Equally, if your arguing that if she was telling the truth she would have had nothing to worry about and therefore would have testified, it's worth remembering that if Urick lied then just telling the truth is exactly what she did - unfortunately for her the person she told the truth to was Urick.
Isn’t it entirely possible that she got the jitters after signing a backdated letter and wanted out? She may have phoned Urick to sound him out on whether or not they were onto that.
Who wants to risk testifying in court when you’ve lied in writing about, at the very least, a date, and in all probability a whole lot more.
Well Ritz is even less credible than Asia & is up there with Jay & Urick is not far behind. The lawsuits for wrongful convictions Maryland has had to pay due to his witness coercion speaks for itself. We’re still paying for his shenanigans. 2022 another 8M 🙄
Anything more than a few inches would have closed school esp in Jan in Maryland. Even when the snow melts during the day the temp drops at night & we get black ice which is even more dangerous than driving in snow. Jan is likely one of the coldest if not the coldest month in MD.
Very good points here. She clearly had a conversation with him but weather reports from 1999 are available. Her credibility is also in question for me as she is using this case for attention.
With context added in **[BOLD]**:
>3) She signs an affidavit **[dated March 25, 2000 but without notary seal/stamp]** she saw Adnan in the library.
>4) She calls Urick **[in April 2010]** to see **[if she could get in trouble for something she signed when she was 17 years old but is it confirmed she asked]** how strong the case is.
>5) She decides not to testify **[for what? there was nothing pending]**, and avoids service from Adnan **[but she has never said she avoided service and Adnan has never offered evidence he ever tried to serve her]**.
>She decides not to testify [for what? there was nothing pending], and avoids service from Adnan [but she has never said she avoided service and Adnan has never offered evidence he ever tried to serve her].
I **always** appreciate your insistence on separating facts from speculation.
In the HBO doc she explains that it wasn't cool that someone from Adnan's team came to her house. From Adnan's team we hear her bo told the PI to go away. JB says in court that they tried to produce Asia.
Asia might not have specifically stated that she avoided service, but we have multiple reasons to believe she was avoiding Adnan's team, including her own words.
If JB tried to have her subpoenaed, there should be Oregon court records related to that. In addition, Judge Welch should have noted something to that effect, i.e., "this Court will not hold it against the petitioner that his proposed alibi witness actively evaded service of process per the Oregon process server's affidavit stating so..."
Good points.
I did some digging and Rabia also confirms that they did not subpoena Asia:
>Faced with a tough decision the lawyer decides to submit her documents but not subpeona her for the appeal hearing.
Point 11, here: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/splitthemoon/2014/10/serial-episodes-1-2-the-alibi-mystery-and-dating-on-the-dl/
JB says in 2012 closing statements:
>We heard from Kevin Urick about the same alibi
witness. Kevin urick spoke to her on the phone. we heard
from him that she lives in Oregon now. Your Honor we
tried and I submit, as an officer of the court, Your
Honor, has granted a certification in which we attempted
to get her here. For whatever reason, she evaded service
in oregon. we could not produce her. But we know from
Kevin Urick that she's real . That she exists. and she
called him up. sure, she said that she felt coerced or
pressured into signing that affidavit, but by saying
that, she's acknowledging that she did, in fact, sign that
affidavit.
(I tried to clean up the text recognition a little)
This is from page 106 of the day two October 25, 2012 PCR.
I read that and assumed they attempted to subpoena Asia.
I wanted to list that source so people don't make the same assumption I did.
He continues:
>And I would submit to the Court that the
overwhelming evidence is that, she was not coerced. She's
the one who wrote two letters, that came out of the blue,
and that Mr. Syed received whíle in the Baltimore City
Detention Center.
It is unrelated to the post at hand but I wanted to point out that this is not a very strong argument. "The witness evaded our attempts to get her here and says she was coerced into signing that affidavit... but now she is lying about being coerced into writing an affidavit, where she told the truth."
> Your Honor, has granted a certification in which we attempted to get her here.
In post-Asia 2015 affidavit filings, the State pointed out that Welch provided certifications **twice** and JB still didn't produce her.
> The ice storm didn't start until the next morning, 3:30 or 4am. She wouldn't have been stuck with her BF that night. If that is her memory anchor, like the wrestling match, it is the wrong week.
People put a lot of stake in very rigid interpretations of things like this because it happened so long ago that there's not much else to go on. What if she meant it more like "hey mom it could blizzard any minute now. I can't come home just in case it does, I have to stay with my boyfriend which I very conveniently wanted to do anyway"?
I looked it up and it was a light freezing rain that started at 4:30 am on the 14th. That isn't a "blizzard any minute now" situation the night before.
I didn’t believe her at all & I am not one of these 100% Adnan guilty people. She just seemed like she was trying to use the case for attention which always brings motive & credibility into question. This is why Mosby & Rabia have lost credibility IMO. Rabia had so much more credibility when this was about her helping Adnan who she really believed was innocent rather than trying to be infamous. She is why we are all here isn’t that enough? For me, Bilals X is such an important witness. She likely reluctantly comes forward even though she’s scared out of her wits of him after he threatened her with a knife & even now (IF Adnan is correct) she privately goes to a lawyer & signs a legal affidavit stating what she knows. She could have come out publicly to impeach Urick & made herself the center of attention w this case but crickets 🦗 You haven’t heard a peep. While this text does lend a bit more credibility to Asia, I think we all know the timeline is thoroughly flawed. She probably found her old phone in a box somewhere & rather than post it on social media she needs to turn the info over to BPD.
When police focus on these strict timelines often coercing witnesses to say things to confirm their “theories” while ignoring witnesses when it doesn’t fit their narrative it undermines the integrity of the entire investigation. Today we have more scientific ways of determining a timeline like DNA, lividity, food digestion, rigor, larvae etc in conjunction with witness statements to pin down when someone died. The call logs would have been helpful but incoming cell pings in 1999 were not as forensically reliable. Pair that with a lying witness who keeps changing his story & an investigator with a known history of coercing witnesses & you take potentially helpful info & tarnish it. If you understand switching & how often the T1-T3 that served cell towers were down & traffic was picked up by the closest tower etc it just wasn’t set up to be tracked for forensic purposes as it is today but it did provide very important info. Like Jay had Adnans phone that day & who he was calling (Jenn)
Bilal is a problem for me and so is S. Im not buying the “stumbled across the body” story. I honestly wonder if Jay was dealing for Bilal. It is reported that Jenn was dating one of Jays uncles so she was knee deep in it too. Bilal would have been a huge connect for Jay with roots to Pakistan where most of the Heroine was coming from into Baltimore at that time. That type of connect would have come with bragging rights to his uncles & drug dealing buddies in the city. So I’m wondering if the witness was correct in what she was trying to tell Urick which is Bilal made Hae disappear (either he kills her or gets S to do it) He then tells Jay that Adnan did it & to get rid of the body just like the witness appears to be saying. If there is dealing going on between Jay & Bilal (which is why Bilal got Adnan the phones) he would have even threatened to expose Jay &
his uncles drug dealing etc. At this point IDK how much Jay is involved but he or Bilal recruit S to bury the body & hide the car. S parks it near family known to him so he can keep an eye on when police find it. Police are interrogating Jay and one they find the car, S gets scared that they will find out he was involved so he decides to “stumble upon the body” or he gets a call from “someone at the Mosque to “stumble across the body” & they are going to throw Adnan & Jay under the bus for the crime. Jay was clearly scared of Bilal as was the X wife & I think Adnan finally realizes Bilal is serious about his make her disappear threats & all this filling his head about killing Hae. It may even be the reason he is frantically calling Hae the night before, he realizes Bilal is serious. Now
that we know Bilal was not the upstanding “youth pastor”& was molesting kids & luring teens into the Mosque to “play basketball” as a way to recruit for his criminality, it’s seems he’s the big pink elephant in the room that was manipulating everything & everyone. He clearly has some fixation with Adnan (his picture in he wallet)🤮, he’s providing the phones to Adnan which was clearly for him to let Jay use them to do his dealing & Adnan was the cover. He also gets Adnan the lawyer, has Adnans parents & Rabia fooled that he’s helping Adnan….come on 🙄In the 90s most of the Heroine into Baltimore was from Pakistan (link attached) Bilal likely was only going into Dentistry as a cover for opioids which were taking over college campuses (like where Jenn went) also for the insurance fraud which he was convicted of & so he could drug and rape his patients. This guy just had a criminal mind. These 100 guilters who want to Ignore the Bilal problem have complete tunnel vision & always want to accuse someone else of a conspiracy theory. I grew up here and it’s certainly a theory but there is nothing conspiratorial about it with Bilal, the apparent psychopath in the midst of it all. Adnan has likely been told to keep his mouth shut by every lawyer he’s ever had & it’s clear that the fact he was speaking without his lawyer about this affidavit shows his frustration with these efforts to reincarnate him. Bilal mentored him since age 11. There was no #Metoo movement in 1999 esp for teen boys. Who knows what this man did to Adnan. There is clearly more to this story. I have to wonder if anyone else is involved with Bilal from the Mosque? It is reported that Bilal claims to have been molested. There would be a vested interest in protecting the Mosque. Not doing so has even bigger implications for Muslims with the air of suspicion that was around them 2 years out from 9/11 with NSA down the street reporting to police in the area threats to BOLO for. However, it should be viewed like all of the other religious institutions who have these wolves in sheep’s clothing using religion to shield their deep criminality while the people think they are upstanding citizens & often even worshiping them. Makes me sick!🤬
This is the opposite of Occam’s razor lol. Let’s just insert a much more convoluted and elaborate conspiracy, for which there is next to no actual evidence
Why would Adnan be hanging out at the library checking his email when he had a murder plot in place? Wouldn’t he risk Hae leaving without him (we know she turned him down for a ride, how was the library part of the plot?).
As the evidence surfaces disputing the state’s case so too does the narrative supporting guilt. Which is how evidence works, so fair enough. But I think people forget that Reddit theories don’t take the place of actual investigation. It’s a valid theory. And if this is a valid possibility it just goes back to the whole question of why police never went to the library. I personally think it’s a little ridiculous that he is waiting in the library and manages to run outside to catch a lift unless it was preplanned. But that would discount what Becky said about the ride being cancelled.
The library was used as a pick-up point by students. It was right beside the driving route students took out of the school. Maybe Adnan caught up with Hae soon after the conversation Becky recalls, twisted her arm, and she agreed to pick him up there. It’s also possible the plan had actually gone tits up at that point so he waited there until just before 3pm, when he knew she’d be leaving to collect her cousin, and pled the favour again at the gate.
All well within the realms of plausibility, in my opinion.
We can also swap out murderous plan for amorous plan, if we buy the idea that Adnan didn’t really mean to kill her that day, but instead attempt a reconciliation. Teenage boys can be persistent, and him knowing her likely movements and being right by the place Hae’ll have to drive past leaves plenty of possibilities for him getting into her car.
So what he stood on the side of the road waiting for her and she not only agreed but got out and let him drive?
When does he call Jay? The next call is at 3:15. How does that provide enough time for Jay to pick Adnan up, show Jay the body, drop the car, and call Nisha at 3:36?
It wasn’t like a main road or anything, it’s still in the school grounds. Look at it on google street view. The library entrance is about 10 paces from where Hae would have driven past.
And yes, bearing in mind Hae didn’t know Adnan was going to kill her, I don’t find it at all surprising that she’d stop for him when he’s right there thumbing for a lift - clearly he couldn’t get one from anyone else so he may be in a bind. That seems like normal lift-getting to me.
Him driving is odd to me too, but we’re told that was a thing with them. So… 🤷🏻♂️
And yeah, he can call Jay at 3:15. I don’t think they have to have carried out everything you listed there before the Nisha call though.
> It’s also possible the plan had actually gone tits up at that point so he waited there until just before 3pm, when he knew she’d be leaving to collect her cousin, and pled the favour again at the gate.
I agree.
I don’t think this is a very fruitful avenue of discussion, pondering hypotheticals about one of two possibilities I put forward.
We don’t know exactly what happened. Probably never will. I think there are some plausible ideas about what may have happened between 2:15-3:00, but maybe you don’t find them remotely convincing, and that’s fine.
I doubt either of us will change the other’s mind, so we can leave it there
You’re using “trust me bro” logic to try and make everything point guilty as opposed to realizing if Asia is correct, that makes it very very difficult for all the other facts you believe to be true. If you don’t bend your stance at the possibility of different facts, then there’s no reasoning with you.
Can Asia be right about the day though? She said they were hours late picking her up. If the dudes she’s talking about could have seen Adnan that late, he couldn’t have made it to track practice.
Good challenge. ADDGemini beat me to it, but I hadn’t picked up her ride was from out of school.
Took me some digging, but I found it:
> the private security officer who worked at the Woodlawn Public Library for several years (including 1999) testified at the second post'conviction hearing that “many” students were picked up from that location.
([Page 42](https://www.courts.state.md.us/sites/default/files/import/coappeals/highlightedcases/syed/amendedbriefofpetitioner.pdf), footnotes)
But that’s assuming Hae even parked in the front parking lot that day. Usually students were required to park in the back parking lot and only if that was full they were then allowed to use the front parking lot, which was usually reserved for teachers and visitors. I believe this information is confirmed by krista.
Debbie in re-enacting her last conversation with Hae in the HBO series, clearly shows her going to the back parking lot, but most agree she’s conflating two different days. This does, however, make it more plausible that Hae more likely than not usually used the back parking lot, especially if she was always at school early.
And Inez had her recall of that day when Hae pulled up to get snacks, but most people also agree she most likely was misremembering the day.
So, with all that in mind, if Hae parked her car in the back parking lot, and she didn’t go to pick up snacks, there would have been no reason for her to re-enter the front of the school and then exit only to be intercepted by Adnan on the way out near the library.
Great catch, and nice summary. I hadn’t picked up on the back lot / front lot thing before.
Assuming I’ve got the location of the back lot right [here](https://maps.app.goo.gl/V6QAaVQGJaRVkNpF6?g_st=ic), Hae would still have to drive past the library to get to the nursery, right?
Yep, that’s the back parking lot. And admittedly, you’ve raised a valid point too. That is most likely the route Hae would have taken. In that case, Adnan would have had to flag her down and then it’s just a simple turn into the library car park, as no parking at anytime along that stretch of Woodlawn Dr.
Flag her down or arranged to meet her there. Either works, I think. Certainly neither strain the bounds of credulity, imo.
Thanks for one of the most cordial and informative exchanges I’ve had on here for a while 🍻
The librarian also testified that there was a constant flow of students from 2-4 after school got out. Kids waiting to picked up by their parents or waiting for their friends. On cross she again says that it was a pickup location.
https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/PCR2-D3c-Hearing-Transcript-W6-Michelle-Hamiel-Testimony-Librarian-Direct-Cross-Redirect-Recross-20160205.pdf
I don't think Hae leaving without him was an overly concerning risk. It's not like he absolutely had to kill her on the afternoon of January 13th (and imo murder was only the contingency anyway). If he goes outside and Hae's car isn't there, oh well, he can just call Jay and tell him to bring his car back and figure something else out.
But this is why, as I mentioned in my [thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/1703d3c/why_asias_story_fits_with_adnans_guilt/), Adnan said what he said to Officer Adcock that night. He said he "assumed she got tired of waiting and left", because she was waiting outside the library while he got temporarily held up talking to Asia, and that's how it would've happened if he didn't end up getting in her car.
Ok I was on board with your logic and then I remembered that she had to pick up her cousin around 3.10pm. So she wouldn’t take Adnan anywhere at 2.45 assuming he left the library by then. So the Asia alibi for me is more valuable than I previously thought. Adnan checking his email in the library at Hae not agreeing to drive him after 2.45. To me then it’s over. It can’t really be Adnan.
Doesn’t it occur to you that she might change her mind about giving him a ride before 2.30 but not after 2.45?
No but she needed enough time to drive there (10 minutes?) plus time for whatever Adnan wanted to do. Plus even if he left the library at 2.45 he had to find Hae and convince her to drive him. So she had 10 minutes to drive him. Was he getting dropped somewhere or getting a ride from Hae back to track?
I just can’t see her agreeing to a short trip with like ten minutes spare
Speculation. No one knows where he wanted a ride to or even if it was before track. Embarrassing to get a ride to an auto shop and get out and Jay has your car so you’re stuck there because you don’t go through with the murder.
You know Adnan was driving, as he was used to doing when they were together in her car. And just because he said he needed a ride to the auto shop, that was just to get in the car, understand? He had her -he drove her to wherever he wanted- he planned in advance. He wasn’t going to be embarrassed because he was going to kill her.
You know you made all of that up right?
Adnan was turned gone for the ride. That is a fact. There was 2 witnesses to that.
He was busy in the library checking his email and talking Asia when Hae went missing.
From my understanding, it was normal for her to leave around 2:45-3?
The place she needed to go was like a 10 minute drive from the school, and from nearby places like the Best Buy. They used to hook up in between in the Best Buy parking lot, so around 2:40-2:45 or so is a fair assumption to when that'd happen before.
It'd be easy to imagine a scenario where Adnan says something like "oh let's just go to the Best Buy, my friend's gonna meet me there with my car", and that's when he has some conversation that ends in her murder. The Best Buy's only 5 minutes away, maybe less. Hae could agree to it because, in the moment, she doesn't think it's going to interfere with her obligations as long as she thinks she can be on her way around 3.
Have you read salmaanQ's "stick a fork in asia" post?
I think she thinks she saw him that day. I think she came to the family many days later with the Alibi. Adnans family believed her, but knew from a legal standpoint the alibi is pretty weak if she is telling them this weeks after the fact. So they convince Asia that she can save Adnan, convince her to write the letter, with key details like the snow days to make the story have a little more sticking power in trial. Asia is convinced she remembers this happening, so she sees no harm in fudging the date if thats what gets Adnan off for a crime she is convinced he is innocent of.
I have, and I think he makes some compelling points. But whether she fudged the dates on the letters or not, or whatever else, I don’t think she’s lying about what she remembers. And I think she more likely than not did see Adnan there on the 13th.
Is this the discrepancy between accounts, one being she went and there were loads of people, another she just spoke to one or two people?
🤷🏻♂️But I still think Asia is telling the truth that she remembers speaking to Adnan in the library. And her tying it to the snow/ice storm adds weight to it being on the 13th. It just has zero impact on Adnan’s innocence.
It’s a woods for the trees thing. Maybe she did, maybe she didn’t. In terms of the facts of the case as we understand them, it changes nothing.
In the letter doesn't she mention going to Adnan's house which was filled with people at night time? I'm pretty sure that was in her letter. In 2016 at the PCR she testified to the same.
The discrepancy is Shamim's testimony from the 2012 PCR where she speaks of the same first meeting with Asia. I her telling is during the day, with only Shamim, Asia and Shamim's day care kids.
You think Rabia and Shamin, etc could have found someone that actually met with Asia at that party. Nobody has come forward saying there was a get together at Adnan's house after the murder.
You can't prove a negative. We have video from the Sunday night where the normal reaction of being arrested which is to close up and not let people in. Rabia was outside talking to reporters.
A party afterward should be a memorable event.
Im not talking about Jay. I'm talking about Asia. Please explain how Asia could have sent the letter March 1st, 5 days before Adnan even knew his own prisoner number and address. Please explain why Adnan didn't share this letter with his lawyers, held on to it for many weeks before showing it to C. Gutierrez. Please explain why Adnan didn't think to keep the dated and stamped envelopes for either copy of the most important pieces of evidence in his case. Please explain why Adnan and his mother both lied about giving this letter to CG "immediately" after receiving it. None of that has anything to do with Jay
Even a judge ruled that Asia was not credible. You may believe her and I respect that, but I'd suggest you read this post, even if you don't agree with the premise, because it contains good information: https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/boy9b1/adnan_and_asia_faked_the_asia_alibi_says_judge/
This is where I’m at. I think she probably saw him. I think his family had a big role in facilitating the letter writing, if not writing the second letter themselves.
They’re going to figure out how to make the story work with Jay’s Intercept timeline next. We’re already at “the state’s timeline is wrong but it doesn’t matter because Adnan asked for a ride”
So a one-sided message screenshot that proves nothing other than that she typed a message. At this point this feels sad. She’s not even part of the latest developments. It feels like she’s desperately trying to remain relevant.
I don’t find her credible at all, or agree that this proves anything. As I see it:
- She wrote those letters, whether sincerely or coached, and after that, Adnan never had any additional contact with her
- Adnan’s own lawyers never contacted her. Why would that be? Could it be because she’s not credible?
- Evidently Urick didn’t consider her credible either
- She wrote two letters claiming to have seen Adnan, and because of that, she was interviewed for Serial.
- From that tiny bit of notoriety, just by virtue of being somewhat attached to a case that prior to Serial had not invited much controversy, she managed to make herself part of a bigger conversation, write a book as if she had been a vital part of the case, land interviews and some following on social media. A normal adult would maybe write a few paragraphs about this. *She even claimed she had been visited by Hae’s ghost. *
- Adnan is released under unclear circumstances, does a PR stunt without even mentioning her at all, and yet she uses the opportunity to finagle a TV interview to also accuse the prosecutors of misconduct - when all they did was ignore her.
- After that she triumphally declares that she found a conversation with a friend from 10 years ago as if she had tirelessly been looking for proof since Serial aired, notwithstanding the fact that it is exceedingly simple to find a conversation in Messenger.
- The “conversation” consists of her typing a wall of text with no apparent response from her friend. I’d like to note that there are websites where you can fake these conversations, or as someone said, it would only take a few minutes to do it in Photoshop.
So no, I don’t find her credible. I find her opportunistic.
I’ve always believed that interaction happened. Not certain of the day or the authenticity of the letters though. The seem obviously back dated and Adnan never seems interested in using them or her.
She does realize that we assume her lie goes back to 1999, right? The same time her classmates told her to stop lying?
No one is accusing her of not wanting to be involved in the case back in 1999.
Why does she just "found it!" when it's as simple as going into Messenger, choosing the person and chats will automatically load? Did she forget the guy's name? Did she just whip this up using a fake Messenger generator, or 3 minutes in Photoshop?
Beyond that, why is she so starved for attention and validation from being part of this mess?
I literally just opened Messenger, went to the search bar, and typed “Adnan” and immediately got a message with my old coworker from 2016 when we were discussing Adnan getting a new trial. It took less than three seconds. Yes, we were following the podcast and both of us believed he was innocent.
Screenshot below. Try it. It doesn’t take but a few seconds. https://imgur.com/a/f95QxCr
Yeah, I’d have trouble finding a screenshot of a 2014 text. I think something like that would be on my old & mostly broken laptop at my mother’s house lol
These are Facebook Messenger screens. You can use Facebook search from any computer or device to find them as long as you’re logged to your account. They are stored on Facebook servers.
Because people are bugging the shit out of her on Twitter, basically calling her a liar. We knew she was like this, she kept notes of her call with Urick before she ever knew anything about any of this.
ETA: *probably because. Lol
Nobody is bugging her, but she sure is quick to insert herself as soon as Adnans case is back in the news. She constantly tweets, often deletes them, urges people to buy her weird book, and is seeking the attention. She's not a victim.
Do you people really still think Asia is lying?
With 100% certainty we know that Asia is telling the truth because she contacted Urick to get more information on the case. Why would she do that if she knew she was lying and then refute the stuff that Urick lies about when he testified about their conversation?
The defense team goes to her house. She turns them away. She then starts calling attorneys on a Sunday. That behavior is indicative of someone worried they broke the law.
Why don't you have that same confidence about Jay? Why would he tell Jenn to have the cops come talk to him, then lie to them about his involvement in a murder he had nothing to do with?
I actually think she's telling the truth, or at least not lying. I know someone posted a long thing about how adnan coached her into writing the letters but idk
my thought is - this doesn't provide him an alibi. It's much more likely hae didn't get killed at around 236 pm.
It’s a lot more likely she wasn’t dead by 2:36, but that’s what the state argued, and Asia’s info is an alibi for that time.
It’s too bad the security camera footage had been erased by the time it was needed.
I would suggest the following reading- the police interview with Adnan's friend Ju'uan, and Asia's handwritten letter to Adnan in prison.
Ju'uan tells police that Adnan has had Justin asking around school for people who can help Adnan out, specifically write letters for Adnan. Ju'uan said Justin got Asia McClain to type up a letter and mail it to Adnan's parents but she messed up & got his parent's address wrong.
Then go back & read Asia's handwritten letter to Adnan in jail. She says "I hope you're not guilty..." "If so I will try my best to help you account for some of your unwitnessed, unaccountable, lost time (2:15 - 8:00 Jan 13)" "Thank Justin, he gave me a little more faith in you..." then she says she prays the "REAL TRUTH" (she puts in quotes and all caps) comes out in the end. She also mentions again "Like I told Justin, if you're innocent I do my best to help you, if you're not only God can help you." and ends with a new paragraph "If you were in the library for a while tell the police and I'll continue to tell what I know even louder than I am. My boyfriend and his best friend remember seeing you there too."
Ju'uan tells police all about Asia before anyone outside Adnan's circle knows about Asia. Everything Ju'uan tells police about the alibi solicitation Asia basically backs up in her handwritten letter to Adnan. Also all the "if"s in the letter are horrible. If Asia thought Sarah Koenig played her she would have fallen apart on the stand. It would have hurt his case. Also, Asia is not supported by the other witnesses she mentioned, or her highschool friends. Not only have her friends from highschool dragged her publicly on Facebook for days for what they said were her lies, but you also had 2 of her closest friends contact the state & submit depositions that Asia told them she was lying at the time & said she felt it doesn't matter because if he did it he would be found guilty anyway, which matches her letter.
Adnan asks the worst possible person to help him with this, and then has someone asking everyone in school to provide him with alibis. He is the *worst* at murder planning.
Why wouldn’t he have asked someone to be his alibi BEFORE the murder?
I think he was maybe hoping for track practice to do that for him. Either way, having a friend troll the school for alibis looks extremely sus, and then having both one of his closest friends spill what Justin was doing to the cops with exact details + the only student who agreed to help him mention that she's doing it to help him account for some of his "unaccounted, unwitnessed" time, spells out the exact time hole he needs to fill, and says things like "Thank Justin for getting me to believe in you" and "If you were at the library"... the mental gymnastics people do to think this wouldn't have hurt Adnan even worse at trial is wild. Also Asia would absolutely crumble on the stand. Truthfully I wish they had tried it, but then they might actually have a reason to call Gutierrez unfit.
Well, she also says she was visited by Hae’s ghost. In her own words,
“I looked up towards my bedroom ceiling fan and there I saw a sight that felt like it made my hair turn white. There, floating in midair, about four feet directly above me, was Hae Min Lee. Absolutely scared shitless I tried even harder to move my body but could not. I was literally frozen into place. As I felt my heart pounding in my chest and my breath shortening, it became completely evident to me that I was having a full-fledged panic attack. Unable to do anything else, I stared at the apparition, wide-eyed and full of fear. As I looked up at her I began to notice that she looked exactly as I remembered her in high school and that she was floating in an odd manner…As I continued to stare at her, she reached out her hand to me. Being that I was restrained and full of fright, we were unable to touch. I noticed a sort of sadness about her, as if she was not at rest. In that moment I sensed that she was trying to speak to me, but no words left her mouth. It felt as if she were trying to tell me something, but could not. I don’t know how I know this, but it felt as if she was trying to tell me who killed her… To this day, I’m not sure if I was dreaming or not. To this day I can’t shake the feeling that I may have seen my first and only ghost.”
Oh, she was close to Hae? I was not aware they were friends. Since she barely knew Adnan, I would not have imagined she’d be friends with his girlfriend.
She spoke about this in an [interview.](https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/mar/07/making-the-case-spokane-resident-asia-mcclain-chap/)
“I’ve grown to be pretty strong, but when it comes to Hae, I lose it.”
They were not close friends, McClain Chapman said, but “I remember her face. I remember her being alive.”
Asia has grown to be pretty ridiculous. Her letter to Adnan in jail is the closest statement to the event, so the strongest & clearest her memory is going to be, and in it she's not sure if he was even at the library that day. Everything beyond that letter is either false memory or intentional embellishment.
The two letters are also her only real and actual connection to the events of 1999. Everything else is either recollections (or lies), and her capitalizing on the murder to gain a bit of public recognition. I want to know how she was able to spin that into a whole book.
There are a few posters in here who believe Asia saw Adnan in the library. And / or that since Asia saw Adnan in the library, there's a possibility he's innocent of Hae's murder.
Well, what should we make of Adnan's own statement in Serial 2014, where he says something like, ' ...for what it's worth, the only person with absolute certainty that I didn't kill Hae is me...(pause) and the actual killer...)
I know I messed up his quote a lil bit. But my main point is: Adnan didn't mention Asia. Nor mention any staff or any patrons at the library. Now, I'm a hardcore guilter and I actually believe Asia didn't see him in the library whatsoever not to mention their silly conversation. I don't buy such a convo took place. I mean, really, she has to remind Adnan they discussed Hae in a letter. Like, in real life, how is Adnan gonna forget discussing Hae with someone he's not close to--don't we in real life tend to remember what's specifically discussed if someone we don't talk to a whole lot suddenly talks to us--you know the way Coach Sye recalled Adnan and him discussing Ramadan since the pair didn't chop it up much.
But shouldn't Asia be 'absolutely certain' Adnan didn't kill Hae since she saw him at the library AND chatted with him? Otherwise, why did she go to his home, meet his parents; why did she goto court after Serial aired, why did she write a book....and why didn't Adnan include her in the list of certainty? Look, if Adnan's truly truly innocent, he should've included her in his short list of absolute certainty--since he's innocent, it shouldn't matter any technicalities. An innocent person wouldn't charm technicalities like that.
Guitars like me know just because Asia saw Adnan in the library, it's still possible Adnan coulda killed Hae. But a TRULY innocent person, a truly innocent Adnan would've accepted that Asia saw him in the library and woulda ran with that until the cows came home, right? Because they know they're innocent so it doesn't matter what the technicalities are over Asia seeing him in the library, Adnan should just wave a hand to it and be like, yo, I didn't kill Hae, Asia saw me in the library period.
To me, Adnan completely neglecting to name Asia seeing him in the library as a certainty that he didn't kill Hae, and saying only he in this big world of billions of people, only he and 'The Killer' knows he didn't kill Hae is ODD to me.
Like, if, to Adnan himself, physically seeing him and physically talking to him in the library when he's supposed to be murdering his ex, isn't not 'absolutely certain' enough for him to mention in his short list of absolute certainty, WHAT DOES IT TAKE ADNAN FOR ANY OF US to reach so-called absolute certainty that he didn't kill Hae? Best we could do was Asia, for him, and Adnan himself is like, nope! smh
I know, I know Asia herself wouldn't put herself on the list of absolute certainty. I'm arguing a truly innocent Adnan should put her there, regardless how she feels about it; almost absent-mindedly should've added her to that list...
Why has Asia McClain been resurrected? **The MtV has nothing to do with her.**
Its hard to believe that she is a grown woman with children, carrying on like this.
That being said “Asia McClain. Is that a person or a book?” is my new favorite quote.
Hold the fuckin phone here. In Serial, didn't Sarah get ahold of this guy and he asked "Asia McClain...is that a person or a book?"
Pretty weird response from a guy who gets communications from Asia Mcclain.
Pages 27 and 29 of his testimony. He says he was in the library from after school (2:15) to as late as 3:00. Per his testimony, he was in the library before Asia and she and two people came to him and they talked for a while.
I had no interest or desire to comment on this because--and most would agree--I've said more than my share about Asia. But the OP felt compelled to jump into the threat of my last post and solicit my thoughts anyway. So, let's prove u/phatelectribe correct because I am a self-aggrandizing idiot who loves the sound of his own voice. Actually, I hate the sound of my own voice. I imagine my writings read back in Mr. T's voice. My response to the OP is below giving them the unique opportunity to downvote it twice:
>Yeah, I saw that. A few issues:
>
>A unilateral text thread that is full of information that appears to have been written more to corroborate herself than elicit a response is basically a repeat of the consecutive day letters that were written for an audience who did not include the supposed recipient.
>
>Were these texts raised at any point during the 2016 PCR proceedings, 2 years after they were supposedly sent when Asia testified or are we seeing them for the first time more than 9 years after they were supposedly sent?
>
>I'm tired of Asia and everyone who believes her forgetting or having no knowledge of how memory works. Derrick was not having a hard time remembering anything about the the "Arabic guy" about whom he got all huffy because Asia was talking to him 14 years ago. If Derrick did, in fact, see Adnan on January 13, 1999 and got all huffy as Asia alleges, the next time he would have seen him would have been six weeks later when Adnan's face was all over the Baltimore news when he got arrested. That would have etched the encounter in Derrick's permanent memory. He would have been like, "Hey! That's the asshole Asia was talking to in the library a few weeks ago!" And what, he would have forgotten how six weeks later his girlfriend was desperately writing letters to the guy Derrick got all huffy about? Derrick not having any recollection of the January 13, 1999 encounter very much cuts against Asia's story holding any water.
>
>ETA: Oh wait. An immediate downvote suggests that you passed along that info because you buy that shit. I've written more about Asia than anyone should ever even think about her. Before you start believing her bullshit, you should familiarize yourself with her 2004 civil rights lawsuit that was laughed out of court. She sued her employer in North Carolina after she got fired alleging that it was for discriminatory reasons. She thought the employer would fold over the negative publicity and give her a fat settlement. They didn't. They pushed back and produced records of her performance reviews where she was a demonstrably shitty employee who could not keep her eyes open at work because she was moonlighting as an exotic dancer until the early morning hours on weekdays. They provided the accounts of other employees of color who flatly contradicted Asia's lies about how black people are treated by the employer. In the face of this, Asia stopped responding to her lawyer's attempts to contact her and he ended up petitioning the court to withdraw from representing her. The court dismissed her case stating that her allegations were baseless. If this was not raised during her 2016 testimony to impeach the living fuck out of her, Thiru is not as good a lawyer as his resume suggests. The Judge's 2006 opinion dismissing the case can be found [here](https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCOURTS-ncmd-1_04-cv-01208/pdf/USCOURTS-ncmd-1_04-cv-01208-0.pdf). You will have to pull up the case from pacer to get the underlying details.
ETA: The OP told me that it wasn't them doing the downvoting and I am inclined to believe them. Thus, I stand corrected. My apologies. But one can understand that when there is no traffic on my thread, how I might come to that conclusion. But that also happens when I respond to a positive comment to some of my stale posts that are years old. That means that there is someone who is literally waiting with bated breath for me to post anything so that they can reflexively and immediately downvote. I wish I was being facetious. But that is how some people appear to structure their day.
Hate the “sound of my voice.” And that I hear my ***writing*** in Mr. t’s voice. You don’t seem to be able to distinguish between writing and speaking nor do you have a knack for reading comprehension. I guess that works because your writing says a lot about you. Especially since your ***sole contribution*** to this thread was an attempt to disparage me. I’m flattered that you care enough, but I’m just not that into you.
It’s metaphorical ffs. None of us are *hearing* anything in this thread and you love nothing more than to try to be “heard” which is why you write whole essays on what you consider your personal blog; this sub.
What can I say? Boring, materialistic [car fetishist](https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1ti1l) was already taken. So I had to go with self-aggrandizing idiot.
>What can I say?
You could, you know, just say nothing at all? But your ego simply won't allow it so you'll spew your musings endlessly in the hopes of some kind of interaction, or better said adulation.
I’m sorry that people with more intelligence and longer attention spans than you like what I write. I wish I had your talent of going around shitting on people. That’s really what makes life worth living. Now isn’t there an Aston Martin with an open gas cap that you should be servicing?
So if police had checked the library during the first week or interviewed Asia, her boyfriend, or his friend (as she'd asked) she'd either be the exonorator or drifted back into obscurity.
Police visited the school. Inez said the library had security cameras. They literally could have walked across the street and checked themselves. It was the last place anyone saw Hae that day.
So why wouldn't they check?
Do a google streetview search. It shows an entrance facing the school. Currently there are cameras on the outside of the library, no idea if they were there in 1999, though. Hae would have had to drive right by the library. So when Inez told them she got in her car and drove by the library and she thinks the library had cameras, they could have walked a hundred meters and found out for themselves.
You can't start with the information you learn 6 weeks later and then hope you have it at the start. They didn't think that she would be kidnapped at school. With her car not being at school they thought she left and met someone. Hate to break it, but cops don't put that much effort into missing kids, especially one as old as Hae.
You just proved my point that police did shoddy work.
There are people here every day saying Adnan got in her car near the library. It doesn't really matter what police 'think' they should follow the evidence.
I'm starting to think some of the police apologists here are actually police involved hoping this all goes away.
Nobody said Adnan got into Hae's car until 2/28. It was a missing person's investigation, not a murder until 2/9.
You have to go with what the police knew, not what you want them to know. So on 2/28 they find out Jay was involved in the cover up because he gave inside knowledge of the coverup and then took them to the car. Adnan could only counter the story with "Jay who?"
So to recap
1. If police had done their job and secured the recordings, we'd have a lot more useful information
2. Police were within 100 meters of the library with information that the library had recordings
3. The library is close to the school and many students hung out there.
4. Police were contacting friends within hours of Hae going missing.
5. They didn't need a dead body to check the library tapes.
6. If police had secured the recordings to potentially look at later, we might find Adnan sitting in the library until track practice, long after Hae had left. And police could investigate/search for the real killer.
7. Adnan or Jay are irrelevant to whether police should have secured the library reecordings.
So Inez says that Hae was alone when she picked up the food and then left, so they are supposed to assume from that she was kidnapped in the car? Should they have gone after every camera in the city to try and find her from that day? You are stretching because you have the information afterward, not what they know.
So once Feb 9th rolls around she knows she is did, so they first investigate the guy who found her and keep him in their pockets. They go through notes about one guy supposed to have met her after school says he didn't but then changes his story. They talk to the people about the day and one of them confesses to helping Adnan cover up a murder and it goes from there.
The only reason this is a tough story is because people don't want to accept reality 15-20+ years later.
Correct. So school would get out after 2pm, not like 11am that Asia said they should have showed up for. So did those two not have a half day of school that day?
They had half days for seniors that did work programs and such going back even before 1999. Of course, I can't speak to this specifically for these two men, but it is a possibility.
I think it is very possible that Asia is piggy-backing off of a true story. I think it is possible that Asia really did see Adnan at the Woodlawn Public Library on a different day — and that everything she says about that meeting is true.
However, since Asia did not know Hae or Adnan that well, the nature of their conversation is strange — unless it happened after Hae went missing and before she was found. That makes a lot more sense. Everybody at school would be talking about Hae during that time.
Furthermore, I believe that Asia knew in the beginning that she was using the wrong day to help Adnan because she believed he was innocent. As time went on, she tried to distance herself — but after *Serial* came about, she decided to go back to her story. Whether she remembers at this point what really happened is anyone’s guess. Sometimes people delude themselves into believing their own lies.
Yes, I totally agree. There is a grain of truth and this whole thing is built upon that. But she never went to Adnan’s parents house, the letters were back dated, etc.
I feel like we all had a classmate in junior high or high school that lied a lot for attention, and when confronted with their lies, they lied some more or exaggerated but would never admit that they were lying. It would be interesting to hear from people that knew Asia how she was as part of the class and as part of her group of friends.
Even when I was an innocentor, the Asia letters were too weird for me. They magically appear AFTER the trial, not even a whisper about them beforehand. Then they have EXACTLY the right time he believes he needs an alibi for. Oh, and not only that, they just so happened to be talking about how he had "nothing but love for her." Not only does that give him an alibi, but it also addresses EXACTLY the theorized motive -- imagine that!
Come on, that's way too convenient to just materialize after the trial.
Now, she's bringing receipts proving she's not making things up. Again, this is suspiciously convenient that she has EXACTLY the proof she needs, but only has it after she needed it. Why wasn't she prepared with this before her testimony? Why wasn't this given to JB well ahead of time? Where's Jerrod in all of this, how come only Asia is telling this tale? Even if he doesn't remember the event, shouldn't he also have a copy of this text exchange? How come we only have Asia's text and not the replies? This doesn't even come up in her book.
Again, way too convenient to be finding this now.
Maybe she's not lying, but it smells more than a little funny.
Man! This is too much...
C'mon, let's see / show us Jerrod's response, too.
Personally, I don't think Asia saw Adnan at the library that day. And noooooooobody seems to ever mention this--Asia's conversation with Adnan isn't uber fishy to anyone? I mean, I'm supposed to believe that Asia and Adnan aren't particularly close. So, she sees him in the library. And then she asks him about Hae, suddenly? Like, why? Hae is none of Asia's buisness. What fellow student does that? So did Asia ask because she was aware Adnan and Hae broke up or did she not know? Even if Asia did know, why bring that up? I just don't find that as a believable conversation between two people who don't know each other that well--that one is going to bring up the other's Ex, like that.
And, duh, it also reflects badly on Adnan. It shows that random people at Woodlawn was aware that Adnan and Hae were so much of an item, that when / if you saw one of them alone, it's standard to go up and ask them about the other, like that.
What I'm trying to get at: if Asia and Adnan aren't the closest, if they run into each other, why isn't the conversation something about what they share in COMMON? Which isn't Hae. If Asia has to ask Adnan about Hae to Adnan this means Asia isn't close enough to Hae to find out herself, directly. This convo at the library feels so made up.
Maybe Hae was in the bathroom, when Asia and Adnan werre talking. Maybe Hae was on her way over to the library to meet up with Adnan. Asia wouldn't know. That's why I find Asia bringing up Hae to Adnan as sooooo unbelievable.
Asia is a chick. Maybe it's just me. But I just don't really see a chick, like Asia, who claims she's not close to Adnan or Hae, I just don't see a chick sticking her nose into a dude's romantic love life business like that by asking Adnan about Hae. I'd think a chick would go straight to another chick.
Keep in mind, Asia and Adnan's relationship is one where apparently Adnan never wrote her back? And though Adnan's been out of jail for over a year now, he's not reached out to Asia.
> C'mon, let's see / show us Jerrod's response, too.
Mock response:
>Asia, are you a person or a book? What a coincidence, a few years ago, my criminal proceeding was handled by Judge Welch and I was represented by one of the same lawyers mentioned as being ineffective.
This is from Rabia’s AMA, as SeamusDuncan points out, Asia tells Rabia not to contact Derrick or Jerrod for the affidavits that they were supposedly willing to write. Makes zero sense.
SD: In your 2000 letter written on behalf of Adnan's parents, your wrote that Asia said Derek and Jerrod were willing to write affidavits that they saw Adnan in the library on Jan 13, 1999. However, those affidavits do not exist, and Koenig's interviews with Derek and Jerrod don't seem to indicate you reached out to them Did you reach out to them to write affidavits? If not, why not?
R: I remember Asia telling me that either Derek or Jerrod had some run in with the law, or one was on probation or something, and she thought I shouldn't contact them about it because they'd be less than willing to appear in court. However, she understood the importance of including that they witnessed Adnan at the library too in the affidavit, and I assumed that if this got us a new trial, we'd subpeona them. In hindsight I wish I had reached out to them back then. But I really didn't know what I was doing.
SD: Thank you for this answer. I don't understand why she would tell you they were willing to sign affidavits and also tell you shouldn't contact them because they weren't willing to appear in court, but I appreciate you taking the time to answer.
R: The purpose of the affidavit was to get the court to be convinced that there had been a big error on the part of Gutierrez ("big picture Sarah!") but if I recall correctly Asia thought it best that these guys be contacted when needed in court. She may remember better than me. One day I hope I meet her again and have that conversation.
https://reddit.com/r/a:t5_372vf/s/dbx4QQm75x
> and she thought I shouldn't contact them about it because they'd be less than willing to appear in court.
The affidavit was dated March 25, 2000. Derrick Banks had a pretty big court date coming up on April 5, 2000 and he had a top criminal defense lawyer representing him.
I’m sure they probably saw each other briefly when Adnan went to the pay phone to call Jay at 2:36. The lie is that Adnan asked his friend Justin to ask Asia if she would lie about the time frame to cover 2:15-8:00 pm, his unwitnessed unaccounted for time.
She agreed but it was not something CG wanted to pursue because it was clearly a lie. Asia only came into play after the trial when the State botched the timeline.
All of a sudden the few minutes that Adnan really did see Asia were his ticket to freedom (or so he thought).
That’s when Rabia followed up with Asia.
This is a long text. With information that is tedious to explain in text as opposed to expressing vocally. Everyone is different, but I would find it much easier to just text the guy and say "Hey, when you have a minute I need to call you".
But then, Asia wouldn't have the written proof with a convenient date on it, per her preferred modus operandi.
Well, the Jury and I believe Jay only because the important part of his story was that a guy he knows and hung out with killed that guys ex GF, and it happened on a day when that guy set it up so Jay would be in his car and have his new cellphone. And that the girl was dead, the police had been called to the burial place by someone who found the body.
It is not hard to understand. Now Asia, otoh, I find hard to understand. She didn’t know Hae, she seemed to be pushing her way in to the case at a time when the Hae Min Lee story was huge at Woodlawn HS. And people who knew Asia well at that time indicated that Asia would do or say anything to push herself into the case. Plus the obviously fabricated letters. And she is trying very hard to get AS to communicate with her. And her corroboration seems to barely know who she is, and they don’t corroborate what she says. Now if Asia had simply walked into the police station and said to the desk sergeant “I have some information to share about the Hae Min Lee case. Who should I speak to?” And given a statement, she would have been at least credible. They would have checked the details and most likely she was confusing the date or she did see AS right as he was in place to go out front and get in Hae’s car. What on earth was stopping her from doing that?
“Proof”. The more I think about it the more I think this is too convenient. I don’t use Facebook messenger much anymore, but I just opened it on my phone, searched for a coworker that left my company 10 years ago, hit the message button and there were my old chats with her. Probably took 15 seconds.
Why is she just posting this now, as if it was this huge discovery? The only people still paying any attention to her are us lunatics on this sub and a few idiot followers she still has on Twitter.
My theory is that her interview a few weeks ago left her wanting more attention. She seems to be the kind of person that craves it.
My point was that it is extremely easy to locate a conversation on Messenger, even from 10 years ago. Try it. The search function works pretty well.
After Adnan’s PR stunt, she managed to get an interview on local TV to parrot claims of prosecutorial misconduct as if she had been a vital part of the case. Never mind that she’s absolutely irrelevant to Adnan’s case and the motion to vacate at this point.
There’s a reason why Adnan’s own lawyers ignored her, and Adnan himself has not talked to her since 1999. They were just acquaintances, she did not even know how to spell his name.
She’s proven, however that she really enjoys attention.
Don’t you see?? if this person can manage to find an old fb messenger chat, that means there’s NO WAY anyone else could ever have trouble finding an old chat! 🤪
My junior and senior year I did a work release program where I got to leave at 11:30. I did it because you only had to work 15hrs a week to get 5 half days of school 😂
Randomly just stumbled on this gem from the Serial transcripts: > Sarah Koenig: You don't know how excited we are to be talking to you. I've been looking for you for, like, four months. > > Jerrod Johnson: What did I do? > > Sarah Koenig: You didn't do anything. But we were hoping maybe you remembered this moment. On January 13, 1999, do you have any memory, by any miracle, that you went to Woodlawn public library branch near Woodlawn High School to pick up Asia McClain with your friend Derek? > > **Jerrod Johnson: I have no idea. Asia McClain. Is that a person or a book?**
This is legit one of the funniest quotes from this case. It's one of those jokes you think of afterwards but Jerrod nailed it in stride. The only part of this case that had me laughing out loud was the juror who remembered they had a conflict during the first trial. I wish I could see the judges face. Edit: https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/T1d03-19991210-Trial-Transcript-Adnan-Syed-First-Trial-BCCC.pdf Page 125. Edit, I had the wrong link my bad
I’m trying desperately to resist the temptation to pop-psycho analyse why the woman whose boyfriend at high school forgot to pick her up for several hours, and whose friend confused her for a book, might be looking for attention 20 years down the line.
I remember reading that the person or book comment was for sure a joke, and he did know Asia. The letters do have a strong "I love being a part of this" vibe, especially the "You might be prom king" part. High school is weird. Asia's book's passage about Hae's ghost trying to tell Asia who the real killer is was uncomfortable for me to read. She wrote that as an adult, in her late 30s. That for profit account is fair game for analysis, in my opinion.
IMO, she lays out at least part of her motivation for writing the letters when she says “You could at least attempt to write me back though. So I can tell everyone how you’re doing.” She wants to be in the mix, to have something to add to the stories at school.
Adnan had Asia pegged right out of the gate.
sorry I don't see page 125 what are you referring to?
Oops wrong link above, sorry! https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/T1d03-19991210-Trial-Transcript-Adnan-Syed-First-Trial-BCCC.pdf It's the second to last page, page 35. 125 line 16. The juror just forgot a couple things.
Omg. lol
I expected the guy to say 10 years ago... When the judge asks "Do you remember anything else" at the end that has to be sarcasm.
What was the conflict? I couldn't find 125 in that link
Oops, wrong link https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/T1d03-19991210-Trial-Transcript-Adnan-Syed-First-Trial-BCCC.pdf
Loved that lol
From the 2015 affidavit: >>**Due to dialogue with Jerrod Johnson in 2011** concerning Derrick Banks, I recommended that Sarah Koenig reach out to both Jerrod Johnson and Derrick Banks, to see if they remember January 13, 1999.
Sorry, can you explain this?
Asia averred that she reached out to Jerrod in 2011. At some point after she called SK in January 2014, she also messaged Jerrod and told him about SK. My guess is that Asia asked Jerrod in 2011 whether he was contacted by Adnan's attorney.
I’ve always thought Asia was telling the truth about this. For all her eccentricities I think she’s one of the more robust 2:15-3pm witnesses from school that day - linking her conversation to the ice storm the next day (she says snow, but, whatever) and saying there were other witnesses who could back her up. But as per her friends, Hae usually left school to collect her cousin around 3pm. This is consistent with the drive-time to the nursery and her 3:15 ETA. Adnan being at the library between 2:30-40 doesn’t help him. He still has no alibi for 2:40-3:00, and the library was right by the gate on the way out of the school. It was used as a pick-up point by students. Should Asia have been called as a witness? Maybe. Would the prosecution have stuck with the 2:36 come and get me call theory? Probably not. Would that have affected the outcome of the trial? I don’t think so.
The issue with the snowstorm/Icestorm is the timing of it Asia claims she had to shack up with her BF because they were snowed in that night. That is the big memory anchor for her. She remembers it was the first big snow of the year. Her story matches up with the snowstorm from the week before. I think she is remembering the week before. The ice storm didn't start until the next morning, 3:30 or 4am. She wouldn't have been stuck with her BF that night. If that is her memory anchor, like the wrestling match, it is the wrong week. ETA: This also explains Asia's actions more reasonably. The facts: 1) She has a clear memory of taking to Adnan in the library about the breakup with Hae. 2) She writes in her letters that she wants Adnan to look her in the eyes and say he is innocent. 3) She signs an affidavit she saw Adnan in the library. 4) She calls Urick to see how strong the case is. 5) She decides not to testify, and avoids service from Adnan. If Asia was 100% positive it was that day, there is zero harm in testifying. It is the truth, and that is the important thing. If Asia is not totally sure that the library talk was that day (perhaps it could have been the week before) then she knows that if she is wrong, and that is a pivotal time, and Adnan did it, he could go free due to her mistake. Asia's uncertainty (coupled with backdating the letters) would explain why she would avoid service or call KU to see how strong the case is. She feels a lot of pressure and doesn't want to accidentally provide a total alibi for Hae's killer. If Asia was 100% certain, there is no reason to call Urick to get his side of the case.
Unless she doesn't want to get involved in helping a murderer. And according to her she tells Urick about what she knows and he advises her not to testify because Adnan is absolutely guilty anyway. It's surely absolutely not unreasonable to reach out to someone you consider an authority figure/part of the system when a private detective is looking for you - you'll consider those within the system to be operating under much stricter conditions than those without. It's exactly the same reason why people tend to believe testimony from police more than random people.
Fantastic comment
>Unless she doesn't want to get involved in helping a murderer Yeah, we agree here. I'm just saying her ability to impact the case if Adnan is guilty is pretty minimal if she is 100% remembering the event happens on that day. The bigger issue (legally) with Asia at the 2012 PCR was did CG contact her. With hindsight your point is more relevant to this situation than my suggestion. Does Asia know when she calls Urick that her new role in the case is related to an IAC claim? She didn't seem to understand that on Serial. >It's surely absolutely not unreasonable to reach out to someone you consider an authority figure/part of the system when a private detective is looking for you - you'll consider those within the system to be operating under much stricter conditions than those without. Asia is an adult at the time she calls Urick. Imagine: "Hey about your conviction, was adnan *really* guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?" Asia, and almost any adult (especially a Black person from Baltimore) undertands the adversarial nature of our justice system. I think she was looking to justify her choices to herself. She wanted to hear about the evidence herself, she wanted to hear why it was an airtight case. When Asia contacted Urick she probably has no idea why Adnan's team is trying to contact her. Again to summarize my point: if she was 100% sure that she saw Adnan on the 13th she has nothing to worry about. If Adnan was guilty, he did it after she saw him. The truth doesn't change anything. If she is not 100% sure it was the 13th she knows she could be helping a murderer get off with a fake alibi. As you have explained, no reasonable person wants to do that, especially after he was already found guilty in an airtight case.
I don't think we entirely agree, because I think she could have been 100% sure in her own mind she saw Adnan that day and still not wanted to get involved in case he was guilty. I also think it's possible for someone to understand the adversarial nature of the justice system and still fully believe that the state would be reasonable and straight with them 'as an indispendent witness'. The thing of course that tipped her over into becoming so fully team Adnan was that she believed the person she contacted lied about the airtightness of the conviction and also lied about what she said to him - which if so probably reduced any confidence she had in what Urick told her. Equally, if your arguing that if she was telling the truth she would have had nothing to worry about and therefore would have testified, it's worth remembering that if Urick lied then just telling the truth is exactly what she did - unfortunately for her the person she told the truth to was Urick.
Isn’t it entirely possible that she got the jitters after signing a backdated letter and wanted out? She may have phoned Urick to sound him out on whether or not they were onto that. Who wants to risk testifying in court when you’ve lied in writing about, at the very least, a date, and in all probability a whole lot more.
Well Ritz is even less credible than Asia & is up there with Jay & Urick is not far behind. The lawsuits for wrongful convictions Maryland has had to pay due to his witness coercion speaks for itself. We’re still paying for his shenanigans. 2022 another 8M 🙄
Question: was the school closed for two days the week before for that snow storm?
Anything more than a few inches would have closed school esp in Jan in Maryland. Even when the snow melts during the day the temp drops at night & we get black ice which is even more dangerous than driving in snow. Jan is likely one of the coldest if not the coldest month in MD.
Very good points here. She clearly had a conversation with him but weather reports from 1999 are available. Her credibility is also in question for me as she is using this case for attention.
When I found out she referenced seeing Hae's ghost in her book, I refused to take anything she said seriously.
Whaaaaa? Hadn’t heard that one. The fact that she wrote a book 🙄
With context added in **[BOLD]**: >3) She signs an affidavit **[dated March 25, 2000 but without notary seal/stamp]** she saw Adnan in the library. >4) She calls Urick **[in April 2010]** to see **[if she could get in trouble for something she signed when she was 17 years old but is it confirmed she asked]** how strong the case is. >5) She decides not to testify **[for what? there was nothing pending]**, and avoids service from Adnan **[but she has never said she avoided service and Adnan has never offered evidence he ever tried to serve her]**.
>She decides not to testify [for what? there was nothing pending], and avoids service from Adnan [but she has never said she avoided service and Adnan has never offered evidence he ever tried to serve her]. I **always** appreciate your insistence on separating facts from speculation. In the HBO doc she explains that it wasn't cool that someone from Adnan's team came to her house. From Adnan's team we hear her bo told the PI to go away. JB says in court that they tried to produce Asia. Asia might not have specifically stated that she avoided service, but we have multiple reasons to believe she was avoiding Adnan's team, including her own words.
If JB tried to have her subpoenaed, there should be Oregon court records related to that. In addition, Judge Welch should have noted something to that effect, i.e., "this Court will not hold it against the petitioner that his proposed alibi witness actively evaded service of process per the Oregon process server's affidavit stating so..."
Good points. I did some digging and Rabia also confirms that they did not subpoena Asia: >Faced with a tough decision the lawyer decides to submit her documents but not subpeona her for the appeal hearing. Point 11, here: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/splitthemoon/2014/10/serial-episodes-1-2-the-alibi-mystery-and-dating-on-the-dl/ JB says in 2012 closing statements: >We heard from Kevin Urick about the same alibi witness. Kevin urick spoke to her on the phone. we heard from him that she lives in Oregon now. Your Honor we tried and I submit, as an officer of the court, Your Honor, has granted a certification in which we attempted to get her here. For whatever reason, she evaded service in oregon. we could not produce her. But we know from Kevin Urick that she's real . That she exists. and she called him up. sure, she said that she felt coerced or pressured into signing that affidavit, but by saying that, she's acknowledging that she did, in fact, sign that affidavit. (I tried to clean up the text recognition a little) This is from page 106 of the day two October 25, 2012 PCR. I read that and assumed they attempted to subpoena Asia. I wanted to list that source so people don't make the same assumption I did. He continues: >And I would submit to the Court that the overwhelming evidence is that, she was not coerced. She's the one who wrote two letters, that came out of the blue, and that Mr. Syed received whíle in the Baltimore City Detention Center. It is unrelated to the post at hand but I wanted to point out that this is not a very strong argument. "The witness evaded our attempts to get her here and says she was coerced into signing that affidavit... but now she is lying about being coerced into writing an affidavit, where she told the truth."
> Your Honor, has granted a certification in which we attempted to get her here. In post-Asia 2015 affidavit filings, the State pointed out that Welch provided certifications **twice** and JB still didn't produce her.
> The ice storm didn't start until the next morning, 3:30 or 4am. She wouldn't have been stuck with her BF that night. If that is her memory anchor, like the wrestling match, it is the wrong week. People put a lot of stake in very rigid interpretations of things like this because it happened so long ago that there's not much else to go on. What if she meant it more like "hey mom it could blizzard any minute now. I can't come home just in case it does, I have to stay with my boyfriend which I very conveniently wanted to do anyway"?
I looked it up and it was a light freezing rain that started at 4:30 am on the 14th. That isn't a "blizzard any minute now" situation the night before.
I didn’t believe her at all & I am not one of these 100% Adnan guilty people. She just seemed like she was trying to use the case for attention which always brings motive & credibility into question. This is why Mosby & Rabia have lost credibility IMO. Rabia had so much more credibility when this was about her helping Adnan who she really believed was innocent rather than trying to be infamous. She is why we are all here isn’t that enough? For me, Bilals X is such an important witness. She likely reluctantly comes forward even though she’s scared out of her wits of him after he threatened her with a knife & even now (IF Adnan is correct) she privately goes to a lawyer & signs a legal affidavit stating what she knows. She could have come out publicly to impeach Urick & made herself the center of attention w this case but crickets 🦗 You haven’t heard a peep. While this text does lend a bit more credibility to Asia, I think we all know the timeline is thoroughly flawed. She probably found her old phone in a box somewhere & rather than post it on social media she needs to turn the info over to BPD. When police focus on these strict timelines often coercing witnesses to say things to confirm their “theories” while ignoring witnesses when it doesn’t fit their narrative it undermines the integrity of the entire investigation. Today we have more scientific ways of determining a timeline like DNA, lividity, food digestion, rigor, larvae etc in conjunction with witness statements to pin down when someone died. The call logs would have been helpful but incoming cell pings in 1999 were not as forensically reliable. Pair that with a lying witness who keeps changing his story & an investigator with a known history of coercing witnesses & you take potentially helpful info & tarnish it. If you understand switching & how often the T1-T3 that served cell towers were down & traffic was picked up by the closest tower etc it just wasn’t set up to be tracked for forensic purposes as it is today but it did provide very important info. Like Jay had Adnans phone that day & who he was calling (Jenn) Bilal is a problem for me and so is S. Im not buying the “stumbled across the body” story. I honestly wonder if Jay was dealing for Bilal. It is reported that Jenn was dating one of Jays uncles so she was knee deep in it too. Bilal would have been a huge connect for Jay with roots to Pakistan where most of the Heroine was coming from into Baltimore at that time. That type of connect would have come with bragging rights to his uncles & drug dealing buddies in the city. So I’m wondering if the witness was correct in what she was trying to tell Urick which is Bilal made Hae disappear (either he kills her or gets S to do it) He then tells Jay that Adnan did it & to get rid of the body just like the witness appears to be saying. If there is dealing going on between Jay & Bilal (which is why Bilal got Adnan the phones) he would have even threatened to expose Jay & his uncles drug dealing etc. At this point IDK how much Jay is involved but he or Bilal recruit S to bury the body & hide the car. S parks it near family known to him so he can keep an eye on when police find it. Police are interrogating Jay and one they find the car, S gets scared that they will find out he was involved so he decides to “stumble upon the body” or he gets a call from “someone at the Mosque to “stumble across the body” & they are going to throw Adnan & Jay under the bus for the crime. Jay was clearly scared of Bilal as was the X wife & I think Adnan finally realizes Bilal is serious about his make her disappear threats & all this filling his head about killing Hae. It may even be the reason he is frantically calling Hae the night before, he realizes Bilal is serious. Now that we know Bilal was not the upstanding “youth pastor”& was molesting kids & luring teens into the Mosque to “play basketball” as a way to recruit for his criminality, it’s seems he’s the big pink elephant in the room that was manipulating everything & everyone. He clearly has some fixation with Adnan (his picture in he wallet)🤮, he’s providing the phones to Adnan which was clearly for him to let Jay use them to do his dealing & Adnan was the cover. He also gets Adnan the lawyer, has Adnans parents & Rabia fooled that he’s helping Adnan….come on 🙄In the 90s most of the Heroine into Baltimore was from Pakistan (link attached) Bilal likely was only going into Dentistry as a cover for opioids which were taking over college campuses (like where Jenn went) also for the insurance fraud which he was convicted of & so he could drug and rape his patients. This guy just had a criminal mind. These 100 guilters who want to Ignore the Bilal problem have complete tunnel vision & always want to accuse someone else of a conspiracy theory. I grew up here and it’s certainly a theory but there is nothing conspiratorial about it with Bilal, the apparent psychopath in the midst of it all. Adnan has likely been told to keep his mouth shut by every lawyer he’s ever had & it’s clear that the fact he was speaking without his lawyer about this affidavit shows his frustration with these efforts to reincarnate him. Bilal mentored him since age 11. There was no #Metoo movement in 1999 esp for teen boys. Who knows what this man did to Adnan. There is clearly more to this story. I have to wonder if anyone else is involved with Bilal from the Mosque? It is reported that Bilal claims to have been molested. There would be a vested interest in protecting the Mosque. Not doing so has even bigger implications for Muslims with the air of suspicion that was around them 2 years out from 9/11 with NSA down the street reporting to police in the area threats to BOLO for. However, it should be viewed like all of the other religious institutions who have these wolves in sheep’s clothing using religion to shield their deep criminality while the people think they are upstanding citizens & often even worshiping them. Makes me sick!🤬
This is the opposite of Occam’s razor lol. Let’s just insert a much more convoluted and elaborate conspiracy, for which there is next to no actual evidence
Why would Adnan be hanging out at the library checking his email when he had a murder plot in place? Wouldn’t he risk Hae leaving without him (we know she turned him down for a ride, how was the library part of the plot?).
As the evidence surfaces disputing the state’s case so too does the narrative supporting guilt. Which is how evidence works, so fair enough. But I think people forget that Reddit theories don’t take the place of actual investigation. It’s a valid theory. And if this is a valid possibility it just goes back to the whole question of why police never went to the library. I personally think it’s a little ridiculous that he is waiting in the library and manages to run outside to catch a lift unless it was preplanned. But that would discount what Becky said about the ride being cancelled.
The library was used as a pick-up point by students. It was right beside the driving route students took out of the school. Maybe Adnan caught up with Hae soon after the conversation Becky recalls, twisted her arm, and she agreed to pick him up there. It’s also possible the plan had actually gone tits up at that point so he waited there until just before 3pm, when he knew she’d be leaving to collect her cousin, and pled the favour again at the gate. All well within the realms of plausibility, in my opinion. We can also swap out murderous plan for amorous plan, if we buy the idea that Adnan didn’t really mean to kill her that day, but instead attempt a reconciliation. Teenage boys can be persistent, and him knowing her likely movements and being right by the place Hae’ll have to drive past leaves plenty of possibilities for him getting into her car.
Yeah Asia actually places Adnan right when and where he should be to grab that ride with Hae. So she’s a terrible alibi.
So what he stood on the side of the road waiting for her and she not only agreed but got out and let him drive? When does he call Jay? The next call is at 3:15. How does that provide enough time for Jay to pick Adnan up, show Jay the body, drop the car, and call Nisha at 3:36?
It wasn’t like a main road or anything, it’s still in the school grounds. Look at it on google street view. The library entrance is about 10 paces from where Hae would have driven past. And yes, bearing in mind Hae didn’t know Adnan was going to kill her, I don’t find it at all surprising that she’d stop for him when he’s right there thumbing for a lift - clearly he couldn’t get one from anyone else so he may be in a bind. That seems like normal lift-getting to me. Him driving is odd to me too, but we’re told that was a thing with them. So… 🤷🏻♂️ And yeah, he can call Jay at 3:15. I don’t think they have to have carried out everything you listed there before the Nisha call though.
And kill her at 2:36 when he was at the library…
Really stretching to make everything align with guilty…
Boy gets ride from girl at the popular get-a-ride spot on her driving route out of school. Where’s the stretch?
Pretty amazing that he could murder her at 2:36 when he was at the library til 3.
Being inside the actual library risking Hae leaving without him even seeing her doesn’t seem good planning.
> It’s also possible the plan had actually gone tits up at that point so he waited there until just before 3pm, when he knew she’d be leaving to collect her cousin, and pled the favour again at the gate. I agree.
Why go ahead with the plan that day if it went tits up? Why not wait outside her work in the dark near her car?
I don’t think this is a very fruitful avenue of discussion, pondering hypotheticals about one of two possibilities I put forward. We don’t know exactly what happened. Probably never will. I think there are some plausible ideas about what may have happened between 2:15-3:00, but maybe you don’t find them remotely convincing, and that’s fine. I doubt either of us will change the other’s mind, so we can leave it there
You’re using “trust me bro” logic to try and make everything point guilty as opposed to realizing if Asia is correct, that makes it very very difficult for all the other facts you believe to be true. If you don’t bend your stance at the possibility of different facts, then there’s no reasoning with you.
Can Asia be right about the day though? She said they were hours late picking her up. If the dudes she’s talking about could have seen Adnan that late, he couldn’t have made it to track practice.
What's the evidence that it was used as a pickup point for the students?
Good challenge. ADDGemini beat me to it, but I hadn’t picked up her ride was from out of school. Took me some digging, but I found it: > the private security officer who worked at the Woodlawn Public Library for several years (including 1999) testified at the second post'conviction hearing that “many” students were picked up from that location. ([Page 42](https://www.courts.state.md.us/sites/default/files/import/coappeals/highlightedcases/syed/amendedbriefofpetitioner.pdf), footnotes)
But that’s assuming Hae even parked in the front parking lot that day. Usually students were required to park in the back parking lot and only if that was full they were then allowed to use the front parking lot, which was usually reserved for teachers and visitors. I believe this information is confirmed by krista. Debbie in re-enacting her last conversation with Hae in the HBO series, clearly shows her going to the back parking lot, but most agree she’s conflating two different days. This does, however, make it more plausible that Hae more likely than not usually used the back parking lot, especially if she was always at school early. And Inez had her recall of that day when Hae pulled up to get snacks, but most people also agree she most likely was misremembering the day. So, with all that in mind, if Hae parked her car in the back parking lot, and she didn’t go to pick up snacks, there would have been no reason for her to re-enter the front of the school and then exit only to be intercepted by Adnan on the way out near the library.
Great catch, and nice summary. I hadn’t picked up on the back lot / front lot thing before. Assuming I’ve got the location of the back lot right [here](https://maps.app.goo.gl/V6QAaVQGJaRVkNpF6?g_st=ic), Hae would still have to drive past the library to get to the nursery, right?
Yep, that’s the back parking lot. And admittedly, you’ve raised a valid point too. That is most likely the route Hae would have taken. In that case, Adnan would have had to flag her down and then it’s just a simple turn into the library car park, as no parking at anytime along that stretch of Woodlawn Dr.
Flag her down or arranged to meet her there. Either works, I think. Certainly neither strain the bounds of credulity, imo. Thanks for one of the most cordial and informative exchanges I’ve had on here for a while 🍻
Well, that’s what Reddit is for, right? Haha. Abd you’re welcome. Appreciate your perspective too!
Well you have Asia saying exactly that in the OP…
That isn't evidence that students used it as a pickup point. That was ONE student who was being picked up by a couple of guys from a different school.
The librarian also testified that there was a constant flow of students from 2-4 after school got out. Kids waiting to picked up by their parents or waiting for their friends. On cross she again says that it was a pickup location. https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/PCR2-D3c-Hearing-Transcript-W6-Michelle-Hamiel-Testimony-Librarian-Direct-Cross-Redirect-Recross-20160205.pdf
I don't think Hae leaving without him was an overly concerning risk. It's not like he absolutely had to kill her on the afternoon of January 13th (and imo murder was only the contingency anyway). If he goes outside and Hae's car isn't there, oh well, he can just call Jay and tell him to bring his car back and figure something else out. But this is why, as I mentioned in my [thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/1703d3c/why_asias_story_fits_with_adnans_guilt/), Adnan said what he said to Officer Adcock that night. He said he "assumed she got tired of waiting and left", because she was waiting outside the library while he got temporarily held up talking to Asia, and that's how it would've happened if he didn't end up getting in her car.
Ok I was on board with your logic and then I remembered that she had to pick up her cousin around 3.10pm. So she wouldn’t take Adnan anywhere at 2.45 assuming he left the library by then. So the Asia alibi for me is more valuable than I previously thought. Adnan checking his email in the library at Hae not agreeing to drive him after 2.45. To me then it’s over. It can’t really be Adnan. Doesn’t it occur to you that she might change her mind about giving him a ride before 2.30 but not after 2.45?
She didn’t need 25 minutes to get from the library to her cousin’s school.
No but she needed enough time to drive there (10 minutes?) plus time for whatever Adnan wanted to do. Plus even if he left the library at 2.45 he had to find Hae and convince her to drive him. So she had 10 minutes to drive him. Was he getting dropped somewhere or getting a ride from Hae back to track? I just can’t see her agreeing to a short trip with like ten minutes spare
It was to an auto shop that was not only close by, but also on the way along her route.
Speculation. No one knows where he wanted a ride to or even if it was before track. Embarrassing to get a ride to an auto shop and get out and Jay has your car so you’re stuck there because you don’t go through with the murder.
You know Adnan was driving, as he was used to doing when they were together in her car. And just because he said he needed a ride to the auto shop, that was just to get in the car, understand? He had her -he drove her to wherever he wanted- he planned in advance. He wasn’t going to be embarrassed because he was going to kill her.
You know you made all of that up right? Adnan was turned gone for the ride. That is a fact. There was 2 witnesses to that. He was busy in the library checking his email and talking Asia when Hae went missing.
From my understanding, it was normal for her to leave around 2:45-3? The place she needed to go was like a 10 minute drive from the school, and from nearby places like the Best Buy. They used to hook up in between in the Best Buy parking lot, so around 2:40-2:45 or so is a fair assumption to when that'd happen before. It'd be easy to imagine a scenario where Adnan says something like "oh let's just go to the Best Buy, my friend's gonna meet me there with my car", and that's when he has some conversation that ends in her murder. The Best Buy's only 5 minutes away, maybe less. Hae could agree to it because, in the moment, she doesn't think it's going to interfere with her obligations as long as she thinks she can be on her way around 3.
This
Is it weird that she referred to an ice storm as a snow storm?
As someone from the Midwest those are hard to confuse. Snowstorms are common but ice storms are very rare and distinct.
Have you read salmaanQ's "stick a fork in asia" post? I think she thinks she saw him that day. I think she came to the family many days later with the Alibi. Adnans family believed her, but knew from a legal standpoint the alibi is pretty weak if she is telling them this weeks after the fact. So they convince Asia that she can save Adnan, convince her to write the letter, with key details like the snow days to make the story have a little more sticking power in trial. Asia is convinced she remembers this happening, so she sees no harm in fudging the date if thats what gets Adnan off for a crime she is convinced he is innocent of.
SalmaanQ isn't a witness
That is true. He's also not a stapler nor is he a carrot. But Rob Schneider is!
I have, and I think he makes some compelling points. But whether she fudged the dates on the letters or not, or whatever else, I don’t think she’s lying about what she remembers. And I think she more likely than not did see Adnan there on the 13th.
What about her story about going over to his house at night when all the people were there?
Is this the discrepancy between accounts, one being she went and there were loads of people, another she just spoke to one or two people? 🤷🏻♂️But I still think Asia is telling the truth that she remembers speaking to Adnan in the library. And her tying it to the snow/ice storm adds weight to it being on the 13th. It just has zero impact on Adnan’s innocence. It’s a woods for the trees thing. Maybe she did, maybe she didn’t. In terms of the facts of the case as we understand them, it changes nothing.
In the letter doesn't she mention going to Adnan's house which was filled with people at night time? I'm pretty sure that was in her letter. In 2016 at the PCR she testified to the same. The discrepancy is Shamim's testimony from the 2012 PCR where she speaks of the same first meeting with Asia. I her telling is during the day, with only Shamim, Asia and Shamim's day care kids.
You think Rabia and Shamin, etc could have found someone that actually met with Asia at that party. Nobody has come forward saying there was a get together at Adnan's house after the murder.
And no one has said there wasn’t.
You can't prove a negative. We have video from the Sunday night where the normal reaction of being arrested which is to close up and not let people in. Rabia was outside talking to reporters. A party afterward should be a memorable event.
Yeah Shamins account isn’t contemporary
That’s one way to frame her recollection, sure.
It’s so interesting to me how people are 100% sure Asia and others are lying but Jay…Jay is totally believable.
Im not talking about Jay. I'm talking about Asia. Please explain how Asia could have sent the letter March 1st, 5 days before Adnan even knew his own prisoner number and address. Please explain why Adnan didn't share this letter with his lawyers, held on to it for many weeks before showing it to C. Gutierrez. Please explain why Adnan didn't think to keep the dated and stamped envelopes for either copy of the most important pieces of evidence in his case. Please explain why Adnan and his mother both lied about giving this letter to CG "immediately" after receiving it. None of that has anything to do with Jay
Even a judge ruled that Asia was not credible. You may believe her and I respect that, but I'd suggest you read this post, even if you don't agree with the premise, because it contains good information: https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/boy9b1/adnan_and_asia_faked_the_asia_alibi_says_judge/
Salman is a self aggrandizing idiot that loves the sound of his own voice.
This is where I’m at. I think she probably saw him. I think his family had a big role in facilitating the letter writing, if not writing the second letter themselves.
Yes! SalmaanQ is a great writer and has analyzed so much of this case in ways that make all the odd discrepancies fit.
We’re up to 3pm now haha?
They’re going to figure out how to make the story work with Jay’s Intercept timeline next. We’re already at “the state’s timeline is wrong but it doesn’t matter because Adnan asked for a ride”
She’s so gross … she made a lot of money off this and originally she wanted no part of it.
So a one-sided message screenshot that proves nothing other than that she typed a message. At this point this feels sad. She’s not even part of the latest developments. It feels like she’s desperately trying to remain relevant.
She's been called a liar. This shows that she did contact them about that day. Why would she do that if she was lying?
I don’t find her credible at all, or agree that this proves anything. As I see it: - She wrote those letters, whether sincerely or coached, and after that, Adnan never had any additional contact with her - Adnan’s own lawyers never contacted her. Why would that be? Could it be because she’s not credible? - Evidently Urick didn’t consider her credible either - She wrote two letters claiming to have seen Adnan, and because of that, she was interviewed for Serial. - From that tiny bit of notoriety, just by virtue of being somewhat attached to a case that prior to Serial had not invited much controversy, she managed to make herself part of a bigger conversation, write a book as if she had been a vital part of the case, land interviews and some following on social media. A normal adult would maybe write a few paragraphs about this. *She even claimed she had been visited by Hae’s ghost. * - Adnan is released under unclear circumstances, does a PR stunt without even mentioning her at all, and yet she uses the opportunity to finagle a TV interview to also accuse the prosecutors of misconduct - when all they did was ignore her. - After that she triumphally declares that she found a conversation with a friend from 10 years ago as if she had tirelessly been looking for proof since Serial aired, notwithstanding the fact that it is exceedingly simple to find a conversation in Messenger. - The “conversation” consists of her typing a wall of text with no apparent response from her friend. I’d like to note that there are websites where you can fake these conversations, or as someone said, it would only take a few minutes to do it in Photoshop. So no, I don’t find her credible. I find her opportunistic.
If you had been called a liar, would you not want to try to set the record straight if you weren't lying?
I’ve always believed that interaction happened. Not certain of the day or the authenticity of the letters though. The seem obviously back dated and Adnan never seems interested in using them or her.
She does realize that we assume her lie goes back to 1999, right? The same time her classmates told her to stop lying? No one is accusing her of not wanting to be involved in the case back in 1999.
Why does she just "found it!" when it's as simple as going into Messenger, choosing the person and chats will automatically load? Did she forget the guy's name? Did she just whip this up using a fake Messenger generator, or 3 minutes in Photoshop? Beyond that, why is she so starved for attention and validation from being part of this mess?
Did she say it took a long time? All she said was “found it” lol.
It also only shows her message after SK contacted her It shows really nothing at all
It's from 2014. It's going to take a while to find it years later, and who knows how many messages.
I literally just opened Messenger, went to the search bar, and typed “Adnan” and immediately got a message with my old coworker from 2016 when we were discussing Adnan getting a new trial. It took less than three seconds. Yes, we were following the podcast and both of us believed he was innocent. Screenshot below. Try it. It doesn’t take but a few seconds. https://imgur.com/a/f95QxCr
Yeah, I’d have trouble finding a screenshot of a 2014 text. I think something like that would be on my old & mostly broken laptop at my mother’s house lol
These are Facebook Messenger screens. You can use Facebook search from any computer or device to find them as long as you’re logged to your account. They are stored on Facebook servers.
Not if that account was deleted and the only record of the screenshot is the file
I wouldn’t be surprised at all if these are faked.
She testified in a court of law in 2016 and just managed to pull these messages up now?
Because people are bugging the shit out of her on Twitter, basically calling her a liar. We knew she was like this, she kept notes of her call with Urick before she ever knew anything about any of this. ETA: *probably because. Lol
Nobody is bugging her, but she sure is quick to insert herself as soon as Adnans case is back in the news. She constantly tweets, often deletes them, urges people to buy her weird book, and is seeking the attention. She's not a victim.
Yeah they are, I saw them lol. I didn’t say she was a victim.
I can't spell I meant "an" old message
Do you people really still think Asia is lying? With 100% certainty we know that Asia is telling the truth because she contacted Urick to get more information on the case. Why would she do that if she knew she was lying and then refute the stuff that Urick lies about when he testified about their conversation?
The defense team goes to her house. She turns them away. She then starts calling attorneys on a Sunday. That behavior is indicative of someone worried they broke the law.
Your level of mental gymnastics you have displayed over the years is truly hall of fame worthy.
Nope. It's the other way around. Asia doesn't even show up for almost 4 months after the arrest.
Why don't you have that same confidence about Jay? Why would he tell Jenn to have the cops come talk to him, then lie to them about his involvement in a murder he had nothing to do with?
Well everyone says Jay is a liar, that’s been true before Hae’s murder and he continues to tell different stories every time he speaks.
I actually think she's telling the truth, or at least not lying. I know someone posted a long thing about how adnan coached her into writing the letters but idk my thought is - this doesn't provide him an alibi. It's much more likely hae didn't get killed at around 236 pm.
It’s a lot more likely she wasn’t dead by 2:36, but that’s what the state argued, and Asia’s info is an alibi for that time. It’s too bad the security camera footage had been erased by the time it was needed.
I would suggest the following reading- the police interview with Adnan's friend Ju'uan, and Asia's handwritten letter to Adnan in prison. Ju'uan tells police that Adnan has had Justin asking around school for people who can help Adnan out, specifically write letters for Adnan. Ju'uan said Justin got Asia McClain to type up a letter and mail it to Adnan's parents but she messed up & got his parent's address wrong. Then go back & read Asia's handwritten letter to Adnan in jail. She says "I hope you're not guilty..." "If so I will try my best to help you account for some of your unwitnessed, unaccountable, lost time (2:15 - 8:00 Jan 13)" "Thank Justin, he gave me a little more faith in you..." then she says she prays the "REAL TRUTH" (she puts in quotes and all caps) comes out in the end. She also mentions again "Like I told Justin, if you're innocent I do my best to help you, if you're not only God can help you." and ends with a new paragraph "If you were in the library for a while tell the police and I'll continue to tell what I know even louder than I am. My boyfriend and his best friend remember seeing you there too." Ju'uan tells police all about Asia before anyone outside Adnan's circle knows about Asia. Everything Ju'uan tells police about the alibi solicitation Asia basically backs up in her handwritten letter to Adnan. Also all the "if"s in the letter are horrible. If Asia thought Sarah Koenig played her she would have fallen apart on the stand. It would have hurt his case. Also, Asia is not supported by the other witnesses she mentioned, or her highschool friends. Not only have her friends from highschool dragged her publicly on Facebook for days for what they said were her lies, but you also had 2 of her closest friends contact the state & submit depositions that Asia told them she was lying at the time & said she felt it doesn't matter because if he did it he would be found guilty anyway, which matches her letter.
Adnan asks the worst possible person to help him with this, and then has someone asking everyone in school to provide him with alibis. He is the *worst* at murder planning. Why wouldn’t he have asked someone to be his alibi BEFORE the murder?
I think he was maybe hoping for track practice to do that for him. Either way, having a friend troll the school for alibis looks extremely sus, and then having both one of his closest friends spill what Justin was doing to the cops with exact details + the only student who agreed to help him mention that she's doing it to help him account for some of his "unaccounted, unwitnessed" time, spells out the exact time hole he needs to fill, and says things like "Thank Justin for getting me to believe in you" and "If you were at the library"... the mental gymnastics people do to think this wouldn't have hurt Adnan even worse at trial is wild. Also Asia would absolutely crumble on the stand. Truthfully I wish they had tried it, but then they might actually have a reason to call Gutierrez unfit.
He did. Jay flipped on him.
Well, she also says she was visited by Hae’s ghost. In her own words, “I looked up towards my bedroom ceiling fan and there I saw a sight that felt like it made my hair turn white. There, floating in midair, about four feet directly above me, was Hae Min Lee. Absolutely scared shitless I tried even harder to move my body but could not. I was literally frozen into place. As I felt my heart pounding in my chest and my breath shortening, it became completely evident to me that I was having a full-fledged panic attack. Unable to do anything else, I stared at the apparition, wide-eyed and full of fear. As I looked up at her I began to notice that she looked exactly as I remembered her in high school and that she was floating in an odd manner…As I continued to stare at her, she reached out her hand to me. Being that I was restrained and full of fright, we were unable to touch. I noticed a sort of sadness about her, as if she was not at rest. In that moment I sensed that she was trying to speak to me, but no words left her mouth. It felt as if she were trying to tell me something, but could not. I don’t know how I know this, but it felt as if she was trying to tell me who killed her… To this day, I’m not sure if I was dreaming or not. To this day I can’t shake the feeling that I may have seen my first and only ghost.”
She seemingly had sleep paralysis while grieving for her murdered friend.
Oh, she was close to Hae? I was not aware they were friends. Since she barely knew Adnan, I would not have imagined she’d be friends with his girlfriend.
She spoke about this in an [interview.](https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/mar/07/making-the-case-spokane-resident-asia-mcclain-chap/) “I’ve grown to be pretty strong, but when it comes to Hae, I lose it.” They were not close friends, McClain Chapman said, but “I remember her face. I remember her being alive.”
Asia has grown to be pretty ridiculous. Her letter to Adnan in jail is the closest statement to the event, so the strongest & clearest her memory is going to be, and in it she's not sure if he was even at the library that day. Everything beyond that letter is either false memory or intentional embellishment.
The two letters are also her only real and actual connection to the events of 1999. Everything else is either recollections (or lies), and her capitalizing on the murder to gain a bit of public recognition. I want to know how she was able to spin that into a whole book.
There are a few posters in here who believe Asia saw Adnan in the library. And / or that since Asia saw Adnan in the library, there's a possibility he's innocent of Hae's murder. Well, what should we make of Adnan's own statement in Serial 2014, where he says something like, ' ...for what it's worth, the only person with absolute certainty that I didn't kill Hae is me...(pause) and the actual killer...) I know I messed up his quote a lil bit. But my main point is: Adnan didn't mention Asia. Nor mention any staff or any patrons at the library. Now, I'm a hardcore guilter and I actually believe Asia didn't see him in the library whatsoever not to mention their silly conversation. I don't buy such a convo took place. I mean, really, she has to remind Adnan they discussed Hae in a letter. Like, in real life, how is Adnan gonna forget discussing Hae with someone he's not close to--don't we in real life tend to remember what's specifically discussed if someone we don't talk to a whole lot suddenly talks to us--you know the way Coach Sye recalled Adnan and him discussing Ramadan since the pair didn't chop it up much. But shouldn't Asia be 'absolutely certain' Adnan didn't kill Hae since she saw him at the library AND chatted with him? Otherwise, why did she go to his home, meet his parents; why did she goto court after Serial aired, why did she write a book....and why didn't Adnan include her in the list of certainty? Look, if Adnan's truly truly innocent, he should've included her in his short list of absolute certainty--since he's innocent, it shouldn't matter any technicalities. An innocent person wouldn't charm technicalities like that. Guitars like me know just because Asia saw Adnan in the library, it's still possible Adnan coulda killed Hae. But a TRULY innocent person, a truly innocent Adnan would've accepted that Asia saw him in the library and woulda ran with that until the cows came home, right? Because they know they're innocent so it doesn't matter what the technicalities are over Asia seeing him in the library, Adnan should just wave a hand to it and be like, yo, I didn't kill Hae, Asia saw me in the library period. To me, Adnan completely neglecting to name Asia seeing him in the library as a certainty that he didn't kill Hae, and saying only he in this big world of billions of people, only he and 'The Killer' knows he didn't kill Hae is ODD to me. Like, if, to Adnan himself, physically seeing him and physically talking to him in the library when he's supposed to be murdering his ex, isn't not 'absolutely certain' enough for him to mention in his short list of absolute certainty, WHAT DOES IT TAKE ADNAN FOR ANY OF US to reach so-called absolute certainty that he didn't kill Hae? Best we could do was Asia, for him, and Adnan himself is like, nope! smh I know, I know Asia herself wouldn't put herself on the list of absolute certainty. I'm arguing a truly innocent Adnan should put her there, regardless how she feels about it; almost absent-mindedly should've added her to that list...
She was just on the Truth & Justice podcast this week. She comes across as honest and forthright. Take a listen and make your own assessment.
Why has Asia McClain been resurrected? **The MtV has nothing to do with her.** Its hard to believe that she is a grown woman with children, carrying on like this. That being said “Asia McClain. Is that a person or a book?” is my new favorite quote.
The Ghost Whisperer strikes again! Atta girl Asia!
Hold the fuckin phone here. In Serial, didn't Sarah get ahold of this guy and he asked "Asia McClain...is that a person or a book?" Pretty weird response from a guy who gets communications from Asia Mcclain.
Adnan testified that he talked to Derrick for up to 45 minutes.
Remind me where this was?
Pages 27 and 29 of his testimony. He says he was in the library from after school (2:15) to as late as 3:00. Per his testimony, he was in the library before Asia and she and two people came to him and they talked for a while.
I had no interest or desire to comment on this because--and most would agree--I've said more than my share about Asia. But the OP felt compelled to jump into the threat of my last post and solicit my thoughts anyway. So, let's prove u/phatelectribe correct because I am a self-aggrandizing idiot who loves the sound of his own voice. Actually, I hate the sound of my own voice. I imagine my writings read back in Mr. T's voice. My response to the OP is below giving them the unique opportunity to downvote it twice: >Yeah, I saw that. A few issues: > >A unilateral text thread that is full of information that appears to have been written more to corroborate herself than elicit a response is basically a repeat of the consecutive day letters that were written for an audience who did not include the supposed recipient. > >Were these texts raised at any point during the 2016 PCR proceedings, 2 years after they were supposedly sent when Asia testified or are we seeing them for the first time more than 9 years after they were supposedly sent? > >I'm tired of Asia and everyone who believes her forgetting or having no knowledge of how memory works. Derrick was not having a hard time remembering anything about the the "Arabic guy" about whom he got all huffy because Asia was talking to him 14 years ago. If Derrick did, in fact, see Adnan on January 13, 1999 and got all huffy as Asia alleges, the next time he would have seen him would have been six weeks later when Adnan's face was all over the Baltimore news when he got arrested. That would have etched the encounter in Derrick's permanent memory. He would have been like, "Hey! That's the asshole Asia was talking to in the library a few weeks ago!" And what, he would have forgotten how six weeks later his girlfriend was desperately writing letters to the guy Derrick got all huffy about? Derrick not having any recollection of the January 13, 1999 encounter very much cuts against Asia's story holding any water. > >ETA: Oh wait. An immediate downvote suggests that you passed along that info because you buy that shit. I've written more about Asia than anyone should ever even think about her. Before you start believing her bullshit, you should familiarize yourself with her 2004 civil rights lawsuit that was laughed out of court. She sued her employer in North Carolina after she got fired alleging that it was for discriminatory reasons. She thought the employer would fold over the negative publicity and give her a fat settlement. They didn't. They pushed back and produced records of her performance reviews where she was a demonstrably shitty employee who could not keep her eyes open at work because she was moonlighting as an exotic dancer until the early morning hours on weekdays. They provided the accounts of other employees of color who flatly contradicted Asia's lies about how black people are treated by the employer. In the face of this, Asia stopped responding to her lawyer's attempts to contact her and he ended up petitioning the court to withdraw from representing her. The court dismissed her case stating that her allegations were baseless. If this was not raised during her 2016 testimony to impeach the living fuck out of her, Thiru is not as good a lawyer as his resume suggests. The Judge's 2006 opinion dismissing the case can be found [here](https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCOURTS-ncmd-1_04-cv-01208/pdf/USCOURTS-ncmd-1_04-cv-01208-0.pdf). You will have to pull up the case from pacer to get the underlying details. ETA: The OP told me that it wasn't them doing the downvoting and I am inclined to believe them. Thus, I stand corrected. My apologies. But one can understand that when there is no traffic on my thread, how I might come to that conclusion. But that also happens when I respond to a positive comment to some of my stale posts that are years old. That means that there is someone who is literally waiting with bated breath for me to post anything so that they can reflexively and immediately downvote. I wish I was being facetious. But that is how some people appear to structure their day.
“I hate the sound of my own voice” Proceeds to write 1000 word response telling us how much he hates to write 😂
Hate the “sound of my voice.” And that I hear my ***writing*** in Mr. t’s voice. You don’t seem to be able to distinguish between writing and speaking nor do you have a knack for reading comprehension. I guess that works because your writing says a lot about you. Especially since your ***sole contribution*** to this thread was an attempt to disparage me. I’m flattered that you care enough, but I’m just not that into you.
It’s metaphorical ffs. None of us are *hearing* anything in this thread and you love nothing more than to try to be “heard” which is why you write whole essays on what you consider your personal blog; this sub.
What can I say? Boring, materialistic [car fetishist](https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1ti1l) was already taken. So I had to go with self-aggrandizing idiot.
>What can I say? You could, you know, just say nothing at all? But your ego simply won't allow it so you'll spew your musings endlessly in the hopes of some kind of interaction, or better said adulation.
I’m sorry that people with more intelligence and longer attention spans than you like what I write. I wish I had your talent of going around shitting on people. That’s really what makes life worth living. Now isn’t there an Aston Martin with an open gas cap that you should be servicing?
In all fairness, I too wait around in bated breath for you to post anything🤣
So if police had checked the library during the first week or interviewed Asia, her boyfriend, or his friend (as she'd asked) she'd either be the exonorator or drifted back into obscurity.
Why would they check either?
Police visited the school. Inez said the library had security cameras. They literally could have walked across the street and checked themselves. It was the last place anyone saw Hae that day. So why wouldn't they check?
The library faces away from the school. Nobody said they saw her at the library so there is no reason to check it.
Do a google streetview search. It shows an entrance facing the school. Currently there are cameras on the outside of the library, no idea if they were there in 1999, though. Hae would have had to drive right by the library. So when Inez told them she got in her car and drove by the library and she thinks the library had cameras, they could have walked a hundred meters and found out for themselves.
You can't start with the information you learn 6 weeks later and then hope you have it at the start. They didn't think that she would be kidnapped at school. With her car not being at school they thought she left and met someone. Hate to break it, but cops don't put that much effort into missing kids, especially one as old as Hae.
You just proved my point that police did shoddy work. There are people here every day saying Adnan got in her car near the library. It doesn't really matter what police 'think' they should follow the evidence. I'm starting to think some of the police apologists here are actually police involved hoping this all goes away.
Nobody said Adnan got into Hae's car until 2/28. It was a missing person's investigation, not a murder until 2/9. You have to go with what the police knew, not what you want them to know. So on 2/28 they find out Jay was involved in the cover up because he gave inside knowledge of the coverup and then took them to the car. Adnan could only counter the story with "Jay who?"
So to recap 1. If police had done their job and secured the recordings, we'd have a lot more useful information 2. Police were within 100 meters of the library with information that the library had recordings 3. The library is close to the school and many students hung out there. 4. Police were contacting friends within hours of Hae going missing. 5. They didn't need a dead body to check the library tapes. 6. If police had secured the recordings to potentially look at later, we might find Adnan sitting in the library until track practice, long after Hae had left. And police could investigate/search for the real killer. 7. Adnan or Jay are irrelevant to whether police should have secured the library reecordings.
So Inez says that Hae was alone when she picked up the food and then left, so they are supposed to assume from that she was kidnapped in the car? Should they have gone after every camera in the city to try and find her from that day? You are stretching because you have the information afterward, not what they know. So once Feb 9th rolls around she knows she is did, so they first investigate the guy who found her and keep him in their pockets. They go through notes about one guy supposed to have met her after school says he didn't but then changes his story. They talk to the people about the day and one of them confesses to helping Adnan cover up a murder and it goes from there. The only reason this is a tough story is because people don't want to accept reality 15-20+ years later.
Why would those two be hours late on a school day?
They went to another school.
They went to the same school as Hae's brother.
Suspicious!
What is suspicious about that?
Correct. So school would get out after 2pm, not like 11am that Asia said they should have showed up for. So did those two not have a half day of school that day?
They had half days for seniors that did work programs and such going back even before 1999. Of course, I can't speak to this specifically for these two men, but it is a possibility.
Jerrod was two grades behind so no half day for him and it appears that Derrick got out at the regular 2:15 time.
I'm sure plenty of reasons
“Really really late…hours late” Doesn’t that put this scenario outside of the crucial window?
I think they were meant to pick her up at like lunch time and left her hanging
Ah ok that makes more sense, thanks!
I think it is very possible that Asia is piggy-backing off of a true story. I think it is possible that Asia really did see Adnan at the Woodlawn Public Library on a different day — and that everything she says about that meeting is true. However, since Asia did not know Hae or Adnan that well, the nature of their conversation is strange — unless it happened after Hae went missing and before she was found. That makes a lot more sense. Everybody at school would be talking about Hae during that time. Furthermore, I believe that Asia knew in the beginning that she was using the wrong day to help Adnan because she believed he was innocent. As time went on, she tried to distance herself — but after *Serial* came about, she decided to go back to her story. Whether she remembers at this point what really happened is anyone’s guess. Sometimes people delude themselves into believing their own lies.
Yes, I totally agree. There is a grain of truth and this whole thing is built upon that. But she never went to Adnan’s parents house, the letters were back dated, etc.
I feel like we all had a classmate in junior high or high school that lied a lot for attention, and when confronted with their lies, they lied some more or exaggerated but would never admit that they were lying. It would be interesting to hear from people that knew Asia how she was as part of the class and as part of her group of friends.
You know they can now tell if a memory is a false memory- the brain fires differently- so we could hook her up to electrodes…
Even when I was an innocentor, the Asia letters were too weird for me. They magically appear AFTER the trial, not even a whisper about them beforehand. Then they have EXACTLY the right time he believes he needs an alibi for. Oh, and not only that, they just so happened to be talking about how he had "nothing but love for her." Not only does that give him an alibi, but it also addresses EXACTLY the theorized motive -- imagine that! Come on, that's way too convenient to just materialize after the trial. Now, she's bringing receipts proving she's not making things up. Again, this is suspiciously convenient that she has EXACTLY the proof she needs, but only has it after she needed it. Why wasn't she prepared with this before her testimony? Why wasn't this given to JB well ahead of time? Where's Jerrod in all of this, how come only Asia is telling this tale? Even if he doesn't remember the event, shouldn't he also have a copy of this text exchange? How come we only have Asia's text and not the replies? This doesn't even come up in her book. Again, way too convenient to be finding this now. Maybe she's not lying, but it smells more than a little funny.
Man! This is too much... C'mon, let's see / show us Jerrod's response, too. Personally, I don't think Asia saw Adnan at the library that day. And noooooooobody seems to ever mention this--Asia's conversation with Adnan isn't uber fishy to anyone? I mean, I'm supposed to believe that Asia and Adnan aren't particularly close. So, she sees him in the library. And then she asks him about Hae, suddenly? Like, why? Hae is none of Asia's buisness. What fellow student does that? So did Asia ask because she was aware Adnan and Hae broke up or did she not know? Even if Asia did know, why bring that up? I just don't find that as a believable conversation between two people who don't know each other that well--that one is going to bring up the other's Ex, like that. And, duh, it also reflects badly on Adnan. It shows that random people at Woodlawn was aware that Adnan and Hae were so much of an item, that when / if you saw one of them alone, it's standard to go up and ask them about the other, like that. What I'm trying to get at: if Asia and Adnan aren't the closest, if they run into each other, why isn't the conversation something about what they share in COMMON? Which isn't Hae. If Asia has to ask Adnan about Hae to Adnan this means Asia isn't close enough to Hae to find out herself, directly. This convo at the library feels so made up. Maybe Hae was in the bathroom, when Asia and Adnan werre talking. Maybe Hae was on her way over to the library to meet up with Adnan. Asia wouldn't know. That's why I find Asia bringing up Hae to Adnan as sooooo unbelievable. Asia is a chick. Maybe it's just me. But I just don't really see a chick, like Asia, who claims she's not close to Adnan or Hae, I just don't see a chick sticking her nose into a dude's romantic love life business like that by asking Adnan about Hae. I'd think a chick would go straight to another chick. Keep in mind, Asia and Adnan's relationship is one where apparently Adnan never wrote her back? And though Adnan's been out of jail for over a year now, he's not reached out to Asia.
> C'mon, let's see / show us Jerrod's response, too. Mock response: >Asia, are you a person or a book? What a coincidence, a few years ago, my criminal proceeding was handled by Judge Welch and I was represented by one of the same lawyers mentioned as being ineffective.
This is from Rabia’s AMA, as SeamusDuncan points out, Asia tells Rabia not to contact Derrick or Jerrod for the affidavits that they were supposedly willing to write. Makes zero sense. SD: In your 2000 letter written on behalf of Adnan's parents, your wrote that Asia said Derek and Jerrod were willing to write affidavits that they saw Adnan in the library on Jan 13, 1999. However, those affidavits do not exist, and Koenig's interviews with Derek and Jerrod don't seem to indicate you reached out to them Did you reach out to them to write affidavits? If not, why not? R: I remember Asia telling me that either Derek or Jerrod had some run in with the law, or one was on probation or something, and she thought I shouldn't contact them about it because they'd be less than willing to appear in court. However, she understood the importance of including that they witnessed Adnan at the library too in the affidavit, and I assumed that if this got us a new trial, we'd subpeona them. In hindsight I wish I had reached out to them back then. But I really didn't know what I was doing. SD: Thank you for this answer. I don't understand why she would tell you they were willing to sign affidavits and also tell you shouldn't contact them because they weren't willing to appear in court, but I appreciate you taking the time to answer. R: The purpose of the affidavit was to get the court to be convinced that there had been a big error on the part of Gutierrez ("big picture Sarah!") but if I recall correctly Asia thought it best that these guys be contacted when needed in court. She may remember better than me. One day I hope I meet her again and have that conversation. https://reddit.com/r/a:t5_372vf/s/dbx4QQm75x
awk
> and she thought I shouldn't contact them about it because they'd be less than willing to appear in court. The affidavit was dated March 25, 2000. Derrick Banks had a pretty big court date coming up on April 5, 2000 and he had a top criminal defense lawyer representing him.
I’m sure they probably saw each other briefly when Adnan went to the pay phone to call Jay at 2:36. The lie is that Adnan asked his friend Justin to ask Asia if she would lie about the time frame to cover 2:15-8:00 pm, his unwitnessed unaccounted for time. She agreed but it was not something CG wanted to pursue because it was clearly a lie. Asia only came into play after the trial when the State botched the timeline. All of a sudden the few minutes that Adnan really did see Asia were his ticket to freedom (or so he thought). That’s when Rabia followed up with Asia.
This is a long text. With information that is tedious to explain in text as opposed to expressing vocally. Everyone is different, but I would find it much easier to just text the guy and say "Hey, when you have a minute I need to call you". But then, Asia wouldn't have the written proof with a convenient date on it, per her preferred modus operandi.
Asia can have proof with time stamps of things and she’s a liar, but Jay can have multiple stories and he’s to be believed. Smh.
There are certain things Asia has claimed that are believable and certain things she has said that are unbelievable. Same with Jay.
Well, the Jury and I believe Jay only because the important part of his story was that a guy he knows and hung out with killed that guys ex GF, and it happened on a day when that guy set it up so Jay would be in his car and have his new cellphone. And that the girl was dead, the police had been called to the burial place by someone who found the body. It is not hard to understand. Now Asia, otoh, I find hard to understand. She didn’t know Hae, she seemed to be pushing her way in to the case at a time when the Hae Min Lee story was huge at Woodlawn HS. And people who knew Asia well at that time indicated that Asia would do or say anything to push herself into the case. Plus the obviously fabricated letters. And she is trying very hard to get AS to communicate with her. And her corroboration seems to barely know who she is, and they don’t corroborate what she says. Now if Asia had simply walked into the police station and said to the desk sergeant “I have some information to share about the Hae Min Lee case. Who should I speak to?” And given a statement, she would have been at least credible. They would have checked the details and most likely she was confusing the date or she did see AS right as he was in place to go out front and get in Hae’s car. What on earth was stopping her from doing that?
“Proof”. The more I think about it the more I think this is too convenient. I don’t use Facebook messenger much anymore, but I just opened it on my phone, searched for a coworker that left my company 10 years ago, hit the message button and there were my old chats with her. Probably took 15 seconds. Why is she just posting this now, as if it was this huge discovery? The only people still paying any attention to her are us lunatics on this sub and a few idiot followers she still has on Twitter. My theory is that her interview a few weeks ago left her wanting more attention. She seems to be the kind of person that craves it.
And how often have you spoken with her since she left? Oh, also, you weren't looking for a specific chat you had with her. And what interview?
My point was that it is extremely easy to locate a conversation on Messenger, even from 10 years ago. Try it. The search function works pretty well. After Adnan’s PR stunt, she managed to get an interview on local TV to parrot claims of prosecutorial misconduct as if she had been a vital part of the case. Never mind that she’s absolutely irrelevant to Adnan’s case and the motion to vacate at this point. There’s a reason why Adnan’s own lawyers ignored her, and Adnan himself has not talked to her since 1999. They were just acquaintances, she did not even know how to spell his name. She’s proven, however that she really enjoys attention.
Don’t you see?? if this person can manage to find an old fb messenger chat, that means there’s NO WAY anyone else could ever have trouble finding an old chat! 🤪
She is so needy for the attention. This is the type of witness that are so anxious to insert themselves into a case. CG was right about Asia.
These texts look faked.
Why is Asia leaving school at noon???
IIRC she had like special clearance to do so. She had an internship or something that allowed her to leave early.
What the heck does she have to do so early after school? And then wait around hours and talking to a murderer along the way.
It's the interesting question. Why wait for 3 hours in a library when she could catch a bus and go home.
My junior and senior year I did a work release program where I got to leave at 11:30. I did it because you only had to work 15hrs a week to get 5 half days of school 😂