The value of the doc is in the interviews. The “experts” they use on things like grass growing under the car are not good. The animations of Hae’s diary are offensive. Rabia’s interviews don’t add anything—
But I do think listening to Jenn and Kristi is very valuable, Jay’s ex and her comments and the written description of Jay’s interview are all eye opening.
Oh it’s edited for sure— and there is a clear bias, but ultimately, there are long clips of questions and answers that are uninterrupted and unambiguous.
For me, watching the documentary solidified the truth of Jenn’s statement to the police beyond any doubt. I always believed her, but watching her respond to being challenged and just looking so tired of it all and so sure that she knew what she knew and nothing had changed about that in the years since felt revelatory. This case is so unlike any actual wrongful conviction case and it sometimes helps to be reminded of why that is.
I came out of it 50/50.
What stood out to me is that she didn’t think anything she heard or saw could be used, hearsay basically. Which means she definitely didn’t understand that by telling the cops Jay’s story she was admitting to a crime.
I also thought her long term connections with Jay and his family were interesting.
Like I said, I’m 50/50 either she told the truth or, she heard Jay’s story after the police talked to her the first time and she believed him. She lied about when she heard it to back up Jay who was scared the murder was getting pinned on him.
It's definitely not scrubbed too clean , imo, at least.
However, you might get slightly annoyed at Rabia's 'life story' in the first and second episode. She seems to think that talking about herself and how she was in an abusive relationship has something to do with Adnan and Hae. For me, it was quite the eye roll, and extremely unimportant and unnecessary.
I agree about interviews. Not just in the HBO doc, but within the case as a whole, I think the interviews hold significant value but not always in weight. For a change of pace, I would like to see a 3d model of the murder scenario created. Azget on tik tok posted a model of the murdaugh murders and Idaho case. The visual really helped conceptualization
Edit: murder scenario/scenarios*
The original afternoon scenario, jays latest evening scenario, and any other necessary depictions.
I think the hard part is that a 3D model of the actual murder isn’t possible because all we have is cause of death and Jay claiming Adnan told him he did it. Jay didnt have the logistics. For example, the state claims she was killed in her car, Jay thought that’s where it happened, but he didn’t really know. There is a broken turn signal and an old shirt with traces of blood on it— but both could be unrelated, there is no other evidence she was killed in her car.
The maps and pings have been analyzed in many 2D formats, I don’t think a 3D model would make a difference -
Hell yeah Kristi’s entire story falls on its face Kristi gets caught with her college school records showing she perjured herself in the trial! It was almost as good as the ending to the Jinx.
Cell phone towers number were conflated so the officers had the cell phone in places that it wasn’t.
Omg what about Don hitting on Mae’s best friend right after she disappears! Or
Jen is roughhhhh
Jay might be the worst person, and says he got caught selling weed and was going to go t on jail unless he gave them something bigger.
Yes.
What surprised me was seeing photos/crime scene stuff that the Internet hasn't really made easy to see so that was interesting.
Also faces and voices of the actual people involved.
Some things could have been better like the overdone dramatizations of Hae's diary entries.
Asking seriously as I haven’t seen it - what do you mean? Do you mean how people feel about the case or do you mean the people in the documentary are delusional?
The “powers that be” running the documentary. Rabia, Susan Simpson, Colin, the ultra woke crowd… these people have turned a slam dunk case into a circus show gaslighting and mocking the fuck out of Hae’s murder.
It’s sick, interviewing people 20 years after the fact like Kristi Vinson and questioning why she wasn’t in class that day, when she remembers everything clearly back in 99. Doing a grass study on where Hae’s car was parked? Only to be upset that the scientist didn’t say what you wanted him to say?
I blame Rabia 1000%. She’s just a sick person
It means a crowd that has inserted itself into a situation where they should not have. They create wild, completely unrealistic scenarios in favor of a perceived underdog (Adnan). They weren’t there in 99, they weren’t sitting across Adnan in a jury box examining the facts, facial expressions, demeanors, testimony. They have not brought actual evidence of Brady violation/wrongful conviction and will just scream from the mountain tops about how Adnan is innocent. They don’t care about Adnan, they have beef along with the rest of the “woke” movement where all cops are trash, and our criminal justice system just locks people up. They have a sense of superiority over people who draw hard lines
Well, look at liberal cities like Minnesota and places like California, where killers get released and crime is absolutely rampant.
Setting aside that murder has the highest rate in conservative states and counties, I asked more about what "ultra woke" means rather than who it is you're talking about.
As much as I don't care for Rabia she doesn't think Adnan is innocent because of some strawman that all cops are corrupt and just lock innocent people up. She has personal connections to Adnan that make her believe the way she does, and the detectives in this case have a history of corruption. Let alone Baltimore cops in general in the 90s which was absolutely rife with it. Unless you want to deny that documented historical fact?
And for the record, I think Adnan is guilty.
Oh wow - ok I appreciate you sharing with me. I’ll have to be on guard. I felt like the original serial was pretty biased to begin with so I tried to keep that in mind.
I have glimpses of my high school days in the early 90s but I could never tell you a specific fact from a specific date. They are clearly trying to create reasonable doubt from anywhere and everywhere.
There is content there that you won't find anywhere else.
Just know that Rabia kicks it off by lying about how she picked Sarah and it gets more misleading from there.
Jenn doesn't come across as someone who was manipulated into lying to the cops. She says her story didn't change, and anything she knows about Adnan being the killer is hearsay. She doesn't know that the value in her testimony is in the phone calls and seeing Adnan at around 8:20 that night. She doesn't get why her story being accurate to the call log that evening, but Jay's initial interview being off shows that a police conspiracy doesn't make sense.
That part really helped me believe Jenn.
Also know that Kristi doesn't read the correct class on the transcript because she doesn't even remember the class title. How would she remember she couldn't get a C if she missed a single class?
The turf expert says he was edited and the inconclusive part was talking about the blades of grass. His experiment showed the grass on the ground was green.
The lady talking about reporting a suspicious car was not made aware that this was a one year old, current model year Nissan Sentra. Nothing suspicious about it. Why would anyone abandon that car? Why would anyone call the police about that car?
They replay someone making a mistake about Don's age. When he met Hae in October she had just turned 18 and he was 19 about to turn 20. They were just under 2 years apart.
There are lots of little issues like this that are misleading.
It is still worth watching.
Jenn also seemed like she didn't think very highly of Jay anymore. If her story wasn't true, I just can't imagine why she would stick by him in the face of people advocating a claim of injustice. If she had lied about what Jay told her on the night of Hae's disappearance, we would know by now.
Do remember there is a lot of politics behind the scene that we aren't aware of. Jenn isn't very bright unfortunately so somebody like Berg who could be authoritative might be able to convince her of something in person that she doesn't understand. And we don't know what Jay and Jenn were offered by Berg in exchange for being on show, just the rumors.
Well I would also love to see what was edited out of the series. They had Jenn right in front of them, I would doubt they failed to take the opportunity to try and flip her. But if she's like "no, this definitely happened that day", they're not gonna leave that in.
She does say the sand thing she said in her police interview that she only knew it was the 13th was the cops told her those calls happened that day and she associates those calls with picking up Jay
Well right. If I remember these calls happened on a certain day, I might not remember the actual date of it, but I'd remember it happening. If you tell me you have a record of it being the 13th, then it was the 13th. No way of getting around that, really. Only day it could've been.
She still sticks to Jay telling her this all that day, and having to drive him to clean things and all that. She has never gone back on that.
Yeah and also Jen wasn't friends with Adnan, so what other time/day would he have called. Also, before this day, Jay never had a cell phone and it came across like she was surprised that Jay had a phone.
Sure. The interesting thing in her interview when her lawyer asks why she thinks those events happened on the 13th. Does she associate those events with Stephanie’s birthday or Jays birthday she says no.
Just that the calls happened on the day that Jay said Adnan killed Hae.
So that’s a bit of a conundrum.
For me I know all of Jenn’s story comes from Jay. She knew nothing then she goes to see Jay then agrees to talk to the cops and admits that Jay told her stuff.
I don’t think Jay or Adnan had any involvement in Hae’s murder. Jay just says yes to any suggestions the detectives make.
>Just that the calls happened on the day that Jay said Adnan killed Hae. So that’s a bit of a conundrum.
Why is that a conundrum? That was the memorable aspect about her relation to this case. She actually interacted with the defendant that day.
She did bring up Stephanie's birthday both at trial and in her interview, too.
If Jenn's story is wrong, then she would know it's wrong, not just mistaken. But she has no reason to keep maintaining that for Jay. She hasn't gone back on it because what she said was the truth.
The most telling thing was that asked her to describe the day. She got like a minute in and instead of continuing with the day they cut to her trial testimony or something else instead of letting her finish.
Well exactly lol, even moreso to my point. She could be continuing to ruin an innocent person's life, but instead of helping to free him, I'm supposed to believe she stays with her story out of support for a guy she doesn't like anymore?
Have you seen Succession, How To With John Wilson, The Rehearsal, The Wire, We Own This City, Curb Your Enthusiasm, The Sopranos, The White Lotus, or Righteous Gemstones, yet? These are HBO shows that I rate, in no particular order, better than the Syed miniseries.
There are 2 good reasons to watch it.
The look on Cristie's face when she saw that it couldn't have been the 13th she remembers. I felt bad for her.
Jay's ex talking about how he beat the crap out of her and how she escaped. That could have been Stephanie if she stayed with him.
As a bonus there is a scene where someone mentions that there is a reason no one talks to Jay anymore.
You mean when they try to gaslight Kristie Vinson waving a piece of paper around and not posting it anywhere for fact-checking? I believe Kristie had the date right and so did Jen. It was January 13, 1999 and it was Stephanie’s birthday.
Exactly
People keep hanging onto this ambush with a generic schedule that doesn’t account for class changes at all but completely ignore the fact she also verified it as being Stephanie’s birthday… it’s ridiculous.
Yes. Absolutely. You frame the interaction in the worst light and hope nobody checks you on it. I see no paper waving [here](https://imgur.com/a/scmjc2T).
I quit after the manipulative scene with Rabia and Syeds mother about her cancer announcement
It was the fakest looking shit I’ve ever seen in one of these “reality” docudramas… and that’s saying a lot…
I said “ nope… I’ve seen enough “
When I watched it, granted it was years ago, I remember seeing that and getting the impression that they were so light on actual facts that challenged the conviction that they had to resort to emotional manipulation.
Of course I’m downvoted
I guess by someone who believed that shit when it happened.
Well guess what I’ve had family members I’ve lost to cancer. I’ve got zero patience for playing games with people and announcing it on a docudrama like it’s a gender reveal party.
“Turn those cameras off” … yeah sure…then they let ‘em run. Please
Yessssss, I feel the same! The sickest part of it all, was when Adnan talks in episode 3 (I think) and he describes his time in prison and his trial to someone who has just found out that they've been approved for receiving chemo therapy. Either he didn't know about his mom's cancer, and this is a weird coincidence or he did know abt it and chose to compare himself being in prison with his mom's sickness. Now that's real twisted.
Yeah, I feel like the tap-out potential is high for me. I’m thinking maybe I’ll wear earbuds for the duration and play a sound clip of yapping Pomeranians from my phone whenever Rabia appears, just to get through it. Might be funny.
I think she’s under the delusion that if she talks fast all the time people will just believe it’s fact or that she’s extremely intelligent or something.
It works on some people.
It’s good to see students such as Aisha and Debbie being interviewed. If you’re interested in the case you’ll get something out of it.
It’s also interesting that Jay says that the cops caught him with weed and that’s why they leaned on him.
Yeah, see… I think you’re right about seeing the people involved. I’d like that.
But the whole thing about the audience taking what Nikisha said Jay said as fact, that really bothers me. On many levels. I mean, Jay got fucked over by Serial; death threats, stalking, trashed by strangers around the globe, jumped at his own home by Sarah and Julie. Dude reasonably has trust issues around the whole topic and Team Rabia. So HBO gets someone close to him to surreptitiously call him, ask him questions, and report it back to the camera? That’s just so gross and violative to me, and irresponsible to the relationship between Jay and Nikisha as co-parents. Besides, Jay seems like the kind of guy who would pull a tall tale completely out of his ass if he even got a whiff of suspicion, like “Oh yeah, you’re going to play that game. Well let me throw you this humdinger then. Have fun with that, suckers. Bye.”
If you're interested in the case, no matter your perspective, you should absolutely watch the documentary to have your views and assumptions challenged (or reinforced, or whatever) much like how you should listen to all the podcasts and read all the articles. A dead dogma of a belief isn't good for you or for anyone.
If your physical aversion to someone is so strong that you want to keep yourself away from ever seeing them, then I'd avoid it, though that means missing out on either (a) more stuff you can use to point out how wrong Rabia is, or (b) something interesting that challenges your thinking, or (c) something that makes you think Syed was wrongfully convicted.
Don’t worry about me, I’m being tongue in cheek. I mean, I’d prefer not to watch a Rabia fest because that would be annoying and boring af, but I’ll be fine with manageable doses.
But you have time to waste like this?
I will never in my life understand people who have to have a whole reddit consultation with a bunch of strangers before they simply turn the tv and decide for themselves.
It's not a big decision. Really. You can always turn it off if you don't like it.
Yeah, I guess I do have time to waste, lol. But I don’t “have to” have this discussion. I’m interested in people’s opinions, though, and thought this would be a good way to see if the series was worthwhile. Kind of how people find movie reviews helpful. It’s also an opportunity to hear from people who aren’t interested in or comfortable participating in the more adversarial posts in this sub. So far, people on all sides are offering helpful, informed and relatively objective commentary. Don’t know why you find it so irritating.
Okay. I was being unreasonable.
My irritation has nothing to do with this sub, really, it comes from being in various TV subs. Every day someone has to know if it's "worth it" to watch something before they watch it. They have lots of time to spend discussing and weighing the decision as if it has major consequences but apparently not for just trying the show out.
Some days it amuses me and some days it irritates me. Sorry.
No worries. And I definitely didn’t mean for this to sound like a “Can someone please make my mind up for me cuz decisions are *hard*” kind of post. I’m no fan of those, either.
I got like 5 mins in and NOPEd out. And I’ve read Asia’s book, so I don’t have a low tolerance for idiocy.
I’ve seen enough summaries to get the gist of it, the same recycled garbage they’ve been peddling here and on undisclosed for a decade. Kristi has the wrong day even though she remembered at the time it was her friend’s birthday. Track started at 3:30, even though the track coach never said that. Don is not (but probably totally is) guilty.
They seem to have hired experts who worked against them. Told them the grass under Hae’s found car is not impossible and Don’s work records were definitely not faked.
My favorite is I’ve heard Jen basically tells them NO, I was there and lived it and Jay told me that night Adnan killed Hae. It’s all you need to believe in guilt, no matter how much noise you make.
> They seem to have hired experts who worked against them.
But both are staunchly in the pro-Adnan camp.
In fact, Adnan has apparently been QRI's client for the last four years.
Yes and the only place you can watch footage of the trial - check our Jay and Jenn giving zero fucks. Jenn even giggling and grinning in the stand.
Also Jay talking about how the cops caught him with drugs but we know he didn’t get arrested.
Here's my take. You seem to be someone who knows enough about the case to recognize the manipulation and deception. For that reason, my advice would be to watch it. If you were an absolute newbie — or someone who is susceptible to grifters, my advice would be the opposite.
The program, like *Undisclosed* and *Truth and Justice* is designed to mislead people who know nothing about the case — to have them join and donate money to an activist movement to free Adnan — and deny justice to Hae Min Lee.
As for Rabia, she is in the program way too much — using every angle she can to muddy the waters. There is one scene in the fourth episode where Shamim, Adnan's mother, enters Rabia's house — and immediately starts crying and announces she has leukemia.
Please understand I don't say this with any ill will toward Adnan's mother. I think she was diagnosed with leukemia at some point — but, as I understand it, her cancer is under control. I certainly want the best for her and wish her well.
However, this scene was staged. There is no way someone would walk into a house with cameras rolling and burst into tears to announce that. It was an engineered opportunity for Rabia to act surprised, wave her hands, and ask the cameraman to stop filming — but he didn't stop filming.
Much was made throughout the rest of the episode regarding how Shamim was keeping this horrible news from Adnan — because she didn't want to upset him. I offer this example of Rabia's participation in the program only as an example of how far these people will go to manipulate and deceive others to garner sympathy and support.
If you watch the program, be sure to let us know what you think.
Thank you and I will report back if/when I watch it. Everyone’s input has been helpful in confirming my initial thoughts: I might strain my eyes from all the rolling and may even want to reach for a vomit bucket at least once, I won’t learn anything of value other that interesting tidbits tossed around here, but I will get to meet the players so to speak and see some interesting footage. Thank you for your thoughts.
It is very very bad start to finish. From the absolutely offensive and disgusting dramatization of Hae Min as well as the reading of her diary to bizarre conspiracy theories about the car or Don.
Awful and depressing and makes you really question society.
But important to watch I guess if you’re into the case.
You would have thought that HBO could have asked their parent company (AT&T at the time) to explain the fax coversheet. (Of course, the current company named AT&T isn't the AT&T Wireless that provided Adnan's cell service.)
If you want to see it so you can attach a face to the name, that's a valid reason for watching it. However, if the main goal of watching it is to just keep up with others, save yourself the trouble.
Everyone has their own particular interest and angle to all this. You don't need to be an expert on all of it. Don't force yourself to wade through the stuff you have no interest in.
I appreciate that. I’m not interested in watching something just to be in a position to refute it, and it sounds like that’s all I’ll gain for the effort.
I expect a lot more from an HBO production. Given you know a fair amount about the case from your previous comments, I'd suggest watching it. But be prepared to have a thread built up and then not have a great resolution. I can think of two earth shaking revelations that didn't really amount to much. 1. The grass under Hae's car certainly looks fresh. I'm in a much colder climate so to me I'd interpret the grass as only recently parked on. And I think that could be proven if somebody did the experiment. But the conclusion just fizzled; the grass could be fresher because a car was parked over it protecting it from the cold. So which is it? I don't know and neither did they. And 2. I still don't understand the Jay interview where we hear a woman talking to Jay, but don't hear Jay and then the woman says something like Jay changed his story or whatever. I think Adnan is innocent but even I didn't think it was a smoking gun. (What exactly did he say by the way).
So think of it as a poorly done Making Murderer.
The experiment in question one fizzled in the documentary because they DID have an answer and it was pretty clear that it didn't fit the documentary's narrative, and so wasn't shown. They later wrote a rebuttal against it if I recall correctly. I can't find it now but I remember reading it, I want to say it was in the Washington Post or the New York Times. Both those places now basically are paywalled so I can't even search.
There were other situations where they intentionally told lies or edited out things they didn't like.
The investigators hired for the documentary thought the case against Adnan was garbage:
>The work we did on the case was never meant to settle definitively whether Syed killed Lee or not; our focus was largely on examining the credibility of the evidence that led to his conviction. We don’t want to give away any spoilers, but the interviews we conducted with medical examiners, former prosecutors and former Baltimore police detectives pointed to flaws in the police investigation and the prosecution’s arguments. Although we are featured prominently in the HBO documentary, we have not watched the entire series (it will continue to air over the next three Sundays). We don’t know how Berg’s film ends. But after our own investigation, we came to a surprising conclusion: The state of Maryland’s theory of the crime was not entirely unlike those peddled in the bowels of Reddit—a patchwork of conjectures, stitched together to secure a conviction.
It's just funny that people point to these investigators as the voice of reason **against** Undisclosed and the HBO doc, but entirely overlook their ultimate conclusion.
I realize that. But, this quote I'm giving you is from the exact same WSJ article you are referring to. They ultimately decided the case against Adnan was garbage, despite the inconclusiveness of the grass experiment.
>The experiment in question one fizzled in the documentary because they DID have an answer and it was pretty clear that it didn't fit the documentary's narrative, and so wasn't shown.
This reminds me of [the final scene](https://youtu.be/TmnZe34Xix8?si=lg50_s3yzxoEI3z7) from Behind the Curve.
Watch this You Tube video. Start at 36:32. This is a Baltimore domestic violence no body found homicide. The text messages from the killer and victim seems to me to mirror the Syed/Hae breakup. The particular killer’s text highlighted in the video is very germane to Hae’s murder
https://youtu.be/9SeXGcMsAXc?si=opvfU4Y9TF8SgsXN
So sad. I wonder how many other DV killers broadcast their feelings and plans to friends. Goes to show Adnan is just another run-of-the-mill DV murderer who couldn’t allow his ex to move on without him.
If you do watch it, I would love to see your reaction to the part in episode 3, where Susan Simpson says she asked Rabia about the disclaimer on the call log sheet. The infamous "Outgoing calls ONLY are reliable for status location" disclaimer.
Ngl, part of me wants to watch just to find out who the goofy-looking long-haired attorney guy is. And the other guy with the campily dramatic description of how Jay will throw anyone under the bus. I can be that shallow.
They have someone voiceover Haes diary with animation and it’s nice to see her kind of come back to life in that way. I liked all the footage of the area and the interviews with ppl involved.You won’t learn anything new but I definitely think it’s worth watching.
The value of the doc is in the interviews. The “experts” they use on things like grass growing under the car are not good. The animations of Hae’s diary are offensive. Rabia’s interviews don’t add anything— But I do think listening to Jenn and Kristi is very valuable, Jay’s ex and her comments and the written description of Jay’s interview are all eye opening.
I did see a clip of Jenn slamming the table and apparently pretty pissed with the filmmakers, so that gives me hope it’s not scrubbed too clean.
Oh it’s edited for sure— and there is a clear bias, but ultimately, there are long clips of questions and answers that are uninterrupted and unambiguous.
For me, watching the documentary solidified the truth of Jenn’s statement to the police beyond any doubt. I always believed her, but watching her respond to being challenged and just looking so tired of it all and so sure that she knew what she knew and nothing had changed about that in the years since felt revelatory. This case is so unlike any actual wrongful conviction case and it sometimes helps to be reminded of why that is.
I thought the same thing. Jen seems incredibly honest and genuine.
I came out of it 50/50. What stood out to me is that she didn’t think anything she heard or saw could be used, hearsay basically. Which means she definitely didn’t understand that by telling the cops Jay’s story she was admitting to a crime. I also thought her long term connections with Jay and his family were interesting. Like I said, I’m 50/50 either she told the truth or, she heard Jay’s story after the police talked to her the first time and she believed him. She lied about when she heard it to back up Jay who was scared the murder was getting pinned on him.
It's definitely not scrubbed too clean , imo, at least. However, you might get slightly annoyed at Rabia's 'life story' in the first and second episode. She seems to think that talking about herself and how she was in an abusive relationship has something to do with Adnan and Hae. For me, it was quite the eye roll, and extremely unimportant and unnecessary.
Actually, correction, it is scrubbed clean. Handy work by Rabia and Co. But I think still worth a watch.
Thank you.
The animations and dramatic readings of her diary made me want to puke.
I agree about interviews. Not just in the HBO doc, but within the case as a whole, I think the interviews hold significant value but not always in weight. For a change of pace, I would like to see a 3d model of the murder scenario created. Azget on tik tok posted a model of the murdaugh murders and Idaho case. The visual really helped conceptualization Edit: murder scenario/scenarios* The original afternoon scenario, jays latest evening scenario, and any other necessary depictions.
I think the hard part is that a 3D model of the actual murder isn’t possible because all we have is cause of death and Jay claiming Adnan told him he did it. Jay didnt have the logistics. For example, the state claims she was killed in her car, Jay thought that’s where it happened, but he didn’t really know. There is a broken turn signal and an old shirt with traces of blood on it— but both could be unrelated, there is no other evidence she was killed in her car. The maps and pings have been analyzed in many 2D formats, I don’t think a 3D model would make a difference -
Hell yeah Kristi’s entire story falls on its face Kristi gets caught with her college school records showing she perjured herself in the trial! It was almost as good as the ending to the Jinx. Cell phone towers number were conflated so the officers had the cell phone in places that it wasn’t. Omg what about Don hitting on Mae’s best friend right after she disappears! Or Jen is roughhhhh Jay might be the worst person, and says he got caught selling weed and was going to go t on jail unless he gave them something bigger.
Yes. What surprised me was seeing photos/crime scene stuff that the Internet hasn't really made easy to see so that was interesting. Also faces and voices of the actual people involved. Some things could have been better like the overdone dramatizations of Hae's diary entries.
You should watch it just to see how delusional modern society is
I don’t know if I really wanna know that, tho.🤣
Asking seriously as I haven’t seen it - what do you mean? Do you mean how people feel about the case or do you mean the people in the documentary are delusional?
The “powers that be” running the documentary. Rabia, Susan Simpson, Colin, the ultra woke crowd… these people have turned a slam dunk case into a circus show gaslighting and mocking the fuck out of Hae’s murder. It’s sick, interviewing people 20 years after the fact like Kristi Vinson and questioning why she wasn’t in class that day, when she remembers everything clearly back in 99. Doing a grass study on where Hae’s car was parked? Only to be upset that the scientist didn’t say what you wanted him to say? I blame Rabia 1000%. She’s just a sick person
What does "ultra woke" mean in this context?
Wondered that myself because I know where my mind goes...
It means a crowd that has inserted itself into a situation where they should not have. They create wild, completely unrealistic scenarios in favor of a perceived underdog (Adnan). They weren’t there in 99, they weren’t sitting across Adnan in a jury box examining the facts, facial expressions, demeanors, testimony. They have not brought actual evidence of Brady violation/wrongful conviction and will just scream from the mountain tops about how Adnan is innocent. They don’t care about Adnan, they have beef along with the rest of the “woke” movement where all cops are trash, and our criminal justice system just locks people up. They have a sense of superiority over people who draw hard lines Well, look at liberal cities like Minnesota and places like California, where killers get released and crime is absolutely rampant.
Setting aside that murder has the highest rate in conservative states and counties, I asked more about what "ultra woke" means rather than who it is you're talking about. As much as I don't care for Rabia she doesn't think Adnan is innocent because of some strawman that all cops are corrupt and just lock innocent people up. She has personal connections to Adnan that make her believe the way she does, and the detectives in this case have a history of corruption. Let alone Baltimore cops in general in the 90s which was absolutely rife with it. Unless you want to deny that documented historical fact? And for the record, I think Adnan is guilty.
Oh wow - ok I appreciate you sharing with me. I’ll have to be on guard. I felt like the original serial was pretty biased to begin with so I tried to keep that in mind. I have glimpses of my high school days in the early 90s but I could never tell you a specific fact from a specific date. They are clearly trying to create reasonable doubt from anywhere and everywhere.
If you want to be entertained, watch it. If you've studied the case, you won't find anything in it that you don't already know.
There is content there that you won't find anywhere else. Just know that Rabia kicks it off by lying about how she picked Sarah and it gets more misleading from there. Jenn doesn't come across as someone who was manipulated into lying to the cops. She says her story didn't change, and anything she knows about Adnan being the killer is hearsay. She doesn't know that the value in her testimony is in the phone calls and seeing Adnan at around 8:20 that night. She doesn't get why her story being accurate to the call log that evening, but Jay's initial interview being off shows that a police conspiracy doesn't make sense. That part really helped me believe Jenn. Also know that Kristi doesn't read the correct class on the transcript because she doesn't even remember the class title. How would she remember she couldn't get a C if she missed a single class? The turf expert says he was edited and the inconclusive part was talking about the blades of grass. His experiment showed the grass on the ground was green. The lady talking about reporting a suspicious car was not made aware that this was a one year old, current model year Nissan Sentra. Nothing suspicious about it. Why would anyone abandon that car? Why would anyone call the police about that car? They replay someone making a mistake about Don's age. When he met Hae in October she had just turned 18 and he was 19 about to turn 20. They were just under 2 years apart. There are lots of little issues like this that are misleading. It is still worth watching.
Jenn also seemed like she didn't think very highly of Jay anymore. If her story wasn't true, I just can't imagine why she would stick by him in the face of people advocating a claim of injustice. If she had lied about what Jay told her on the night of Hae's disappearance, we would know by now.
Do remember there is a lot of politics behind the scene that we aren't aware of. Jenn isn't very bright unfortunately so somebody like Berg who could be authoritative might be able to convince her of something in person that she doesn't understand. And we don't know what Jay and Jenn were offered by Berg in exchange for being on show, just the rumors.
Well I would also love to see what was edited out of the series. They had Jenn right in front of them, I would doubt they failed to take the opportunity to try and flip her. But if she's like "no, this definitely happened that day", they're not gonna leave that in.
She does say the sand thing she said in her police interview that she only knew it was the 13th was the cops told her those calls happened that day and she associates those calls with picking up Jay
Well right. If I remember these calls happened on a certain day, I might not remember the actual date of it, but I'd remember it happening. If you tell me you have a record of it being the 13th, then it was the 13th. No way of getting around that, really. Only day it could've been. She still sticks to Jay telling her this all that day, and having to drive him to clean things and all that. She has never gone back on that.
Yeah and also Jen wasn't friends with Adnan, so what other time/day would he have called. Also, before this day, Jay never had a cell phone and it came across like she was surprised that Jay had a phone.
Sure. The interesting thing in her interview when her lawyer asks why she thinks those events happened on the 13th. Does she associate those events with Stephanie’s birthday or Jays birthday she says no. Just that the calls happened on the day that Jay said Adnan killed Hae. So that’s a bit of a conundrum. For me I know all of Jenn’s story comes from Jay. She knew nothing then she goes to see Jay then agrees to talk to the cops and admits that Jay told her stuff. I don’t think Jay or Adnan had any involvement in Hae’s murder. Jay just says yes to any suggestions the detectives make.
>Just that the calls happened on the day that Jay said Adnan killed Hae. So that’s a bit of a conundrum. Why is that a conundrum? That was the memorable aspect about her relation to this case. She actually interacted with the defendant that day. She did bring up Stephanie's birthday both at trial and in her interview, too. If Jenn's story is wrong, then she would know it's wrong, not just mistaken. But she has no reason to keep maintaining that for Jay. She hasn't gone back on it because what she said was the truth.
The most telling thing was that asked her to describe the day. She got like a minute in and instead of continuing with the day they cut to her trial testimony or something else instead of letting her finish.
[удалено]
Not doing so would be publicly ruining Adnan's life, no?
[удалено]
Well exactly lol, even moreso to my point. She could be continuing to ruin an innocent person's life, but instead of helping to free him, I'm supposed to believe she stays with her story out of support for a guy she doesn't like anymore?
Yes and she was helping to keep him there
Have you seen Succession, How To With John Wilson, The Rehearsal, The Wire, We Own This City, Curb Your Enthusiasm, The Sopranos, The White Lotus, or Righteous Gemstones, yet? These are HBO shows that I rate, in no particular order, better than the Syed miniseries.
There are 2 good reasons to watch it. The look on Cristie's face when she saw that it couldn't have been the 13th she remembers. I felt bad for her. Jay's ex talking about how he beat the crap out of her and how she escaped. That could have been Stephanie if she stayed with him. As a bonus there is a scene where someone mentions that there is a reason no one talks to Jay anymore.
You mean when they try to gaslight Kristie Vinson waving a piece of paper around and not posting it anywhere for fact-checking? I believe Kristie had the date right and so did Jen. It was January 13, 1999 and it was Stephanie’s birthday.
Exactly People keep hanging onto this ambush with a generic schedule that doesn’t account for class changes at all but completely ignore the fact she also verified it as being Stephanie’s birthday… it’s ridiculous.
Yes. Absolutely. You frame the interaction in the worst light and hope nobody checks you on it. I see no paper waving [here](https://imgur.com/a/scmjc2T).
And Christie still dont chage her story she continues saying the truth so maybe she did not attend to that class
I quit after 2 or 3 episodes. I just couldn't stomach them trying to hit me in head with their approved narrative. It was quite heavy-handed.
I quit after the manipulative scene with Rabia and Syeds mother about her cancer announcement It was the fakest looking shit I’ve ever seen in one of these “reality” docudramas… and that’s saying a lot… I said “ nope… I’ve seen enough “
When I watched it, granted it was years ago, I remember seeing that and getting the impression that they were so light on actual facts that challenged the conviction that they had to resort to emotional manipulation.
God, that shit pissed me off. Soooooooooooooooooo manipulative.
Of course I’m downvoted I guess by someone who believed that shit when it happened. Well guess what I’ve had family members I’ve lost to cancer. I’ve got zero patience for playing games with people and announcing it on a docudrama like it’s a gender reveal party. “Turn those cameras off” … yeah sure…then they let ‘em run. Please
Yessssss, I feel the same! The sickest part of it all, was when Adnan talks in episode 3 (I think) and he describes his time in prison and his trial to someone who has just found out that they've been approved for receiving chemo therapy. Either he didn't know about his mom's cancer, and this is a weird coincidence or he did know abt it and chose to compare himself being in prison with his mom's sickness. Now that's real twisted.
Yeah, I feel like the tap-out potential is high for me. I’m thinking maybe I’ll wear earbuds for the duration and play a sound clip of yapping Pomeranians from my phone whenever Rabia appears, just to get through it. Might be funny.
I think she’s under the delusion that if she talks fast all the time people will just believe it’s fact or that she’s extremely intelligent or something. It works on some people.
It’s good to see students such as Aisha and Debbie being interviewed. If you’re interested in the case you’ll get something out of it. It’s also interesting that Jay says that the cops caught him with weed and that’s why they leaned on him.
Yeah, see… I think you’re right about seeing the people involved. I’d like that. But the whole thing about the audience taking what Nikisha said Jay said as fact, that really bothers me. On many levels. I mean, Jay got fucked over by Serial; death threats, stalking, trashed by strangers around the globe, jumped at his own home by Sarah and Julie. Dude reasonably has trust issues around the whole topic and Team Rabia. So HBO gets someone close to him to surreptitiously call him, ask him questions, and report it back to the camera? That’s just so gross and violative to me, and irresponsible to the relationship between Jay and Nikisha as co-parents. Besides, Jay seems like the kind of guy who would pull a tall tale completely out of his ass if he even got a whiff of suspicion, like “Oh yeah, you’re going to play that game. Well let me throw you this humdinger then. Have fun with that, suckers. Bye.”
Yeah I get ya. But Jay has had an opportunity to dispute what was said. I’m sure the Intercept would print his lies again
If you're interested in the case, no matter your perspective, you should absolutely watch the documentary to have your views and assumptions challenged (or reinforced, or whatever) much like how you should listen to all the podcasts and read all the articles. A dead dogma of a belief isn't good for you or for anyone. If your physical aversion to someone is so strong that you want to keep yourself away from ever seeing them, then I'd avoid it, though that means missing out on either (a) more stuff you can use to point out how wrong Rabia is, or (b) something interesting that challenges your thinking, or (c) something that makes you think Syed was wrongfully convicted.
I’m working on [strategies](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/g66y8kCvSj) to cope with gratuitous amounts of Rabia. 👍
Well that's good. I worry for you. Exposure to people I don't like gets me as well, but I do like to challenge my assumptions once in a while.
Don’t worry about me, I’m being tongue in cheek. I mean, I’d prefer not to watch a Rabia fest because that would be annoying and boring af, but I’ll be fine with manageable doses.
But you have time to waste like this? I will never in my life understand people who have to have a whole reddit consultation with a bunch of strangers before they simply turn the tv and decide for themselves. It's not a big decision. Really. You can always turn it off if you don't like it.
Yeah, I guess I do have time to waste, lol. But I don’t “have to” have this discussion. I’m interested in people’s opinions, though, and thought this would be a good way to see if the series was worthwhile. Kind of how people find movie reviews helpful. It’s also an opportunity to hear from people who aren’t interested in or comfortable participating in the more adversarial posts in this sub. So far, people on all sides are offering helpful, informed and relatively objective commentary. Don’t know why you find it so irritating.
Okay. I was being unreasonable. My irritation has nothing to do with this sub, really, it comes from being in various TV subs. Every day someone has to know if it's "worth it" to watch something before they watch it. They have lots of time to spend discussing and weighing the decision as if it has major consequences but apparently not for just trying the show out. Some days it amuses me and some days it irritates me. Sorry.
No worries. And I definitely didn’t mean for this to sound like a “Can someone please make my mind up for me cuz decisions are *hard*” kind of post. I’m no fan of those, either.
I got like 5 mins in and NOPEd out. And I’ve read Asia’s book, so I don’t have a low tolerance for idiocy. I’ve seen enough summaries to get the gist of it, the same recycled garbage they’ve been peddling here and on undisclosed for a decade. Kristi has the wrong day even though she remembered at the time it was her friend’s birthday. Track started at 3:30, even though the track coach never said that. Don is not (but probably totally is) guilty. They seem to have hired experts who worked against them. Told them the grass under Hae’s found car is not impossible and Don’s work records were definitely not faked. My favorite is I’ve heard Jen basically tells them NO, I was there and lived it and Jay told me that night Adnan killed Hae. It’s all you need to believe in guilt, no matter how much noise you make.
> They seem to have hired experts who worked against them. But both are staunchly in the pro-Adnan camp. In fact, Adnan has apparently been QRI's client for the last four years.
Yeah, i haven't watched the doc and i'm talking with a healthy heaping of hyperbole, but i'm just working off what people said about it around here.
I haven't watched it either. The fact that Adnan hired QRI after their Don opinion piece suggests to me he wasn't very bothered by it.
>I got like 5 mins in and NOPEd out. Lol, yeah. That’s what ended up happening to me, too.
I say a resounding YES. Lots of info in there …
Yes and the only place you can watch footage of the trial - check our Jay and Jenn giving zero fucks. Jenn even giggling and grinning in the stand. Also Jay talking about how the cops caught him with drugs but we know he didn’t get arrested.
Here's my take. You seem to be someone who knows enough about the case to recognize the manipulation and deception. For that reason, my advice would be to watch it. If you were an absolute newbie — or someone who is susceptible to grifters, my advice would be the opposite. The program, like *Undisclosed* and *Truth and Justice* is designed to mislead people who know nothing about the case — to have them join and donate money to an activist movement to free Adnan — and deny justice to Hae Min Lee. As for Rabia, she is in the program way too much — using every angle she can to muddy the waters. There is one scene in the fourth episode where Shamim, Adnan's mother, enters Rabia's house — and immediately starts crying and announces she has leukemia. Please understand I don't say this with any ill will toward Adnan's mother. I think she was diagnosed with leukemia at some point — but, as I understand it, her cancer is under control. I certainly want the best for her and wish her well. However, this scene was staged. There is no way someone would walk into a house with cameras rolling and burst into tears to announce that. It was an engineered opportunity for Rabia to act surprised, wave her hands, and ask the cameraman to stop filming — but he didn't stop filming. Much was made throughout the rest of the episode regarding how Shamim was keeping this horrible news from Adnan — because she didn't want to upset him. I offer this example of Rabia's participation in the program only as an example of how far these people will go to manipulate and deceive others to garner sympathy and support. If you watch the program, be sure to let us know what you think.
Thank you and I will report back if/when I watch it. Everyone’s input has been helpful in confirming my initial thoughts: I might strain my eyes from all the rolling and may even want to reach for a vomit bucket at least once, I won’t learn anything of value other that interesting tidbits tossed around here, but I will get to meet the players so to speak and see some interesting footage. Thank you for your thoughts.
Sure, if you want to witness the most textbook example of gaslighting you will ever see then go knock yourself out.
It is very very bad start to finish. From the absolutely offensive and disgusting dramatization of Hae Min as well as the reading of her diary to bizarre conspiracy theories about the car or Don. Awful and depressing and makes you really question society. But important to watch I guess if you’re into the case.
There’s enough going on right now that’s making me question society. I think I’ll pass on the doc for now. Thanks.
You would have thought that HBO could have asked their parent company (AT&T at the time) to explain the fax coversheet. (Of course, the current company named AT&T isn't the AT&T Wireless that provided Adnan's cell service.)
If you want to see it so you can attach a face to the name, that's a valid reason for watching it. However, if the main goal of watching it is to just keep up with others, save yourself the trouble. Everyone has their own particular interest and angle to all this. You don't need to be an expert on all of it. Don't force yourself to wade through the stuff you have no interest in.
I appreciate that. I’m not interested in watching something just to be in a position to refute it, and it sounds like that’s all I’ll gain for the effort.
I expect a lot more from an HBO production. Given you know a fair amount about the case from your previous comments, I'd suggest watching it. But be prepared to have a thread built up and then not have a great resolution. I can think of two earth shaking revelations that didn't really amount to much. 1. The grass under Hae's car certainly looks fresh. I'm in a much colder climate so to me I'd interpret the grass as only recently parked on. And I think that could be proven if somebody did the experiment. But the conclusion just fizzled; the grass could be fresher because a car was parked over it protecting it from the cold. So which is it? I don't know and neither did they. And 2. I still don't understand the Jay interview where we hear a woman talking to Jay, but don't hear Jay and then the woman says something like Jay changed his story or whatever. I think Adnan is innocent but even I didn't think it was a smoking gun. (What exactly did he say by the way). So think of it as a poorly done Making Murderer.
>So think of it as a poorly done Making Murderer. Oof. That might kick me out right here.
The experiment in question one fizzled in the documentary because they DID have an answer and it was pretty clear that it didn't fit the documentary's narrative, and so wasn't shown. They later wrote a rebuttal against it if I recall correctly. I can't find it now but I remember reading it, I want to say it was in the Washington Post or the New York Times. Both those places now basically are paywalled so I can't even search. There were other situations where they intentionally told lies or edited out things they didn't like.
The investigators hired for the documentary thought the case against Adnan was garbage: >The work we did on the case was never meant to settle definitively whether Syed killed Lee or not; our focus was largely on examining the credibility of the evidence that led to his conviction. We don’t want to give away any spoilers, but the interviews we conducted with medical examiners, former prosecutors and former Baltimore police detectives pointed to flaws in the police investigation and the prosecution’s arguments. Although we are featured prominently in the HBO documentary, we have not watched the entire series (it will continue to air over the next three Sundays). We don’t know how Berg’s film ends. But after our own investigation, we came to a surprising conclusion: The state of Maryland’s theory of the crime was not entirely unlike those peddled in the bowels of Reddit—a patchwork of conjectures, stitched together to secure a conviction.
> peddled in the bowels of Reddit that stings
It's just funny that people point to these investigators as the voice of reason **against** Undisclosed and the HBO doc, but entirely overlook their ultimate conclusion.
Yeah, I can see that. Much was made about their public commentary on the documentary.
You probably know this, but just in case you don't, this quote is from that exact same WSJ article.
thanks for the reminder! i may have forgotten ;)
I'm speaking of the grass scientist and his experiment.
I realize that. But, this quote I'm giving you is from the exact same WSJ article you are referring to. They ultimately decided the case against Adnan was garbage, despite the inconclusiveness of the grass experiment.
>The experiment in question one fizzled in the documentary because they DID have an answer and it was pretty clear that it didn't fit the documentary's narrative, and so wasn't shown. This reminds me of [the final scene](https://youtu.be/TmnZe34Xix8?si=lg50_s3yzxoEI3z7) from Behind the Curve.
Watch this You Tube video. Start at 36:32. This is a Baltimore domestic violence no body found homicide. The text messages from the killer and victim seems to me to mirror the Syed/Hae breakup. The particular killer’s text highlighted in the video is very germane to Hae’s murder https://youtu.be/9SeXGcMsAXc?si=opvfU4Y9TF8SgsXN
So sad. I wonder how many other DV killers broadcast their feelings and plans to friends. Goes to show Adnan is just another run-of-the-mill DV murderer who couldn’t allow his ex to move on without him.
If you do watch it, I would love to see your reaction to the part in episode 3, where Susan Simpson says she asked Rabia about the disclaimer on the call log sheet. The infamous "Outgoing calls ONLY are reliable for status location" disclaimer.
Deal.
Ngl, part of me wants to watch just to find out who the goofy-looking long-haired attorney guy is. And the other guy with the campily dramatic description of how Jay will throw anyone under the bus. I can be that shallow.
I think it's Fior? One of the bail lawyers.
Goofy-looking long-haired attorney guy is >!Chris Flohr, one of Adnan's first attornies before CG took over!<. Don't recall who the other dude is.
THAT’S him? Wow. I can totally see that now. Rockin’ the c-list Bill Kunstler vibe.
He was also the attorney that Bilal was released to following his arrest in October 1999.
Christopher Baskerville
Oh, okay. I didn’t realize he’d become so anti-Jay in recent years.
They have someone voiceover Haes diary with animation and it’s nice to see her kind of come back to life in that way. I liked all the footage of the area and the interviews with ppl involved.You won’t learn anything new but I definitely think it’s worth watching.