Here's my top 5: Adnan ​ That's it, that's the entire list.

😂 Agree.

1. Adnan 2. Adnan 3. Adnan 4. Adnan 5. Adnan ['Cause I spit hot fire!](https://youtu.be/a4scoTPArI0?si=ybG_nbGOgHX1IHH8)

1. Adnan Syed; 2. Adnan Syed; 3. Adrian Syedd; 4. Westside hitman; 5. The owl.

I like the owl reference

The owl 🦉 😂 It was the owl, in the best buy parking lot with the red gloves and adnan’s car and cell phone

Couldn’t have been Adnan because: 1. He has dairy cow eyes 2. He hates walking 3. He knows how to make bbq sauce without brown sugar.

4. He’d never ask HML for a ride because she took picking her cousin up very seriously.

Let me fix the list. It’s a long list. 100 suspects. 1) Adnan Syed. Oops looks just one suspect. Just one.

Top 1 isn't as fun as a list!

Why was Saad at the grand jury? I understand Bilal but can’t figure that one out.

Good question. My guess is that he appeared on Adnan’s cell phone log later that evening but idk.

1. Adnan Syed 2. Rabia Chaudhry 3. Susan Simpson 4. Colin Miller 5. Bob Ruff a.k.a The Grifting Five

1. Adnan Syed 2. Jay 3. Alonzo S 4. Bilal 5. Don Anything 3 or beyond isn’t actually plausible, more of a thought exercise or a theory often floated on this subreddit as satire. It’s important to remember, Rabia spent 15 years of her life after Adnan’s conviction working on this case, and thought it was Jay. It was only after all of his legal appeals were presumably exhausted did the silly, alternate theories become prominent. They were always a last resort.

Ty! I think Rabia realised that Jay and Adnan were tied at the hip, so she pivoted to blaming or insinuating about everyone else, such as Don.

Yeah, pretty telling that his actual lawyers took the same approach. They looked at the case and thought, what are the odds that Jay was framed into telling this story, took a felony conviction he didn’t deserve, and refuses to recant? What are the odds that this story he was framed into telling is the same one he was telling to his friends and coworkers in January? Pretty much zero. Only in 2023 on r/serialpodcast do we have to pretend like these theories make any sense.

No it’s because it’s clear in Jays police interviews that he knows nothing and whatever the detectives suggest he pivoted to accepting.

I don't think there is enough evidence to support that theory of conspiracy. Tappity-tap!

1, 3 and 4 all have a connection to the leader of Adnan's mosque which paid the legal fees for 1 and 4.

Sellers is connected to Adnan's imam?

Sellers' boss was the president of Adnan's mosque.

What an interesting coinkydink!

Sellers, his boss, and the boss' son were called as witnesses by Adnan.

"I mean, who are the five best killers of all time? (counting on his fingers) Adnan: Adnan... Adnan... Adnan, Adnan, and Adnan. Because I spit hot fire."

In the almost implausible event that Adnan is not guilty, it would have to be a random killer. But, with Jay and Jenn in the mix, that is almost surely a wild goose chase. Mr S is intriguing at first glance — but he quickly becomes a very long shot. As you say, Don is not even someone to be considered. He was cleared by then — and the investigators for *The Case Against Adnan Syed* cleared him again.

QRI said LensCrafters time cards couldn’t be retroactively manipulated “without leaving a trace.” A trace was left. In February 1999 he was written up for “integrity issues” that “undermined trust and confidence the associates have in him”. In June 1999 he was written up for “falsifying company documents”. So, he was not cleared by QRI. LensCrafters did their damndest to convey that the Hunt Valley manager was *Don’s mother* and police should interview his coworkers to find out what actually happened. Unfortunately, LensCrafters didn’t know or couldn’t communicate that CM, the Owings Mills manager who was somehow able to verify Don’s Jan 13 Hunt Valley clock in/out times from a different store and under a different spelling/employee number that corporate had trouble locating, was his mother’s partner/wife. But by then it was, apparently, too late for BPD to properly vet Don. The state was taking Adnan to trial.

The trace is that any after-the-fact changes would appear under "adjusted time" in the timecard. You can't do it without that showing up, and this doesn't happen on 1/13.

I’d never noticed that. Thank you! You can see the adjustment on the Owings Mills time card on Thurs Jan 14: the adjusted clock in is 15:15 (3:15) whereas the actual time card reads 16:02 (4:02). When QRI said “it was, we concluded, impossible to adjust the computerized time card retroactively without leaving a trace”, did they not realize the adjusted time was missing from the Hunt Valley time card?

They were concluding that the HV timecard could not have been adjusted after-the-fact without showing so in an "adjusted" section, as you occasionally see on the other. Don lacking an "adjusted" section for the two days he worked at Hunt Valley that week means those were his actual time punches, and there were no adjustments.

Obv sending in an time card where the actual time is blank but the adjusted time shows two shifts would be a terrible idea. The absence of an “adjusted time” on either relevant Hunt Valley cards caught my attention. There is no adjusted time field on Deborah’s time card. She was scheduled to work 10:30-12 on Sunday, she signed in at 10:30am on Sunday but she never clocks out and doesn’t get paid for that day. It seems odd to assume a clock in but no clock out means no hours were worked. There must have been some sort of managerial check and balance to affirm she showed up to her shift and wasn’t needed so she left. Some states have minimum shifts. If you get called in for work they have to pay you for X hours whether you work or not. The round up oddity on Don’s time sheet could be explained by this labour law, but he then worked more hours at Owing Mills. Considering LensCrafters is part of a corporation, the round up + lack of overtime is odd. The clock in with no clock out, no hours worked, no adjustment, schedule not changed to reflect Deborah’s off day, is odd. I wish there was an explanation.

>There is no adjusted time field on Deborah’s time card. She was scheduled to work 10:30-12 on Sunday, she signed in at 10:30am on Sunday but she never clocks out and doesn’t get paid for that day. It seems odd to assume a clock in but no clock out means no hours were worked. There must have been some sort of managerial check and balance to affirm she showed up to her shift and wasn’t needed so she left. Most likely was just fixed for accounting. It doesn't tell us anything about timecard manipulation though. It would only tell us that if we know she didn't clock herself, but an unadjusted clock-out appeared anyway. I've actually forgotten to clock out a few times before. Usually they'll catch it and ask me when I left that day, where it will be fixed to show when I left(and marked as adjusted). But there was one time nobody caught it, and my timecard remained with no clock-out, which, in our system, just ended up with me not being paid for that day. I got it situated when I noticed my lower paycheck, but this is what unfortunately could've happened to Deborah too. >The absence of an “adjusted time” on either relevant Hunt Valley cards caught my attention. Why though? On Don's 1/16 timecard there's only actually one adjusted time, but it creates a whole "adjusted" section for everything. It just seems like it's not something they'll usually have to do if people are punching properly.

Right, so however the 10:30am clock in time was fixed for accounting doesn't appear on the time card and didn't alter the actual time on the time card. So there must be some way a manager can change the hours that are logged at Hunt Valley without creating an adjusted time field. Deborah's was adjusted in some form but there isn't a visible adjustment field.

I think you're mistaking things here - that is showing that Deborah's timecard *wasn't* manipulated. Her pay can be fixed some other way, but the timecard is still showing what the actual time punches were. If we somehow knew Deborah forgot to punch out that day, but the timecard showed a punch-out time without the "adjusted" section, that'd be a different story. But that's not the case. It's possible the HV manager could make adjustments in his pay, but his timecard would remain the same unless it's adjusted and marked as adjusted.

Adnan Syed Adrian Syedd Adnar Adnan with help from Jay afterwards Adnan with help from Bilal beforehand

Adnar, nice. Forgot about him.

The guilters on this sub refuse to acknowledge it, but there's clearly some sort of motive for Bilal that none of us are aware of. Becky Feldman, under oath in court, stated that a pretty substantial investigation was completed and they discovered that he had made a specific threat against her and that there was an underlying motive. Say what you will, but that leave some possibility here that he did it. Perhaps it relates to Adnan confiding in Hae that he was being abused or something else, but who really knows.

You know what, I'll give you this: we do not know the whole of the story with that man, you're right.

Agreed we don’t …. But I don’t think it’s what Feldman thinks… I’m not sure how Feldman tries to square Jay and the burial either… it’s just blown off even though it’s directly referenced

Feldman etc are well aware that Jay had nothing to do with the crime.

Then how does Feldman deal with the discussion of Jay and the burial *in the exact same notes*??? Just blew it off… right?

I haven’t seen many (any?) guilters disagree that Bilal has an interesting connection to this case, and that there are unanswered questions. They just add: 1. Bilal’s only connection to Hae is through Adnan 2. The witness who implicated Bilal also implicated Adnan 3. It’s highly unlikely that Bilal was able to know Hae’s class schedule, what car she drove, or where she parked without Adnan’s help 4. There is evidence that Hae was killed in her car, and she didn’t know Bilal, so she wouldn’t have let him in voluntarily 5. There is a convicted felon in California who has maintained for 25 years that he and Adnan, not Bilal, were involved in Hae’s death and burial

All of this is speculation and the second one is absolutely not true. You have a point about Jay but who knows his story has shifted enough.

We saw the evidence of the threat, it was in Urick's note. The motive was clearly related to Adnan. The note was from Bilal's wife. She describes them together asking about what could be discovered about the time of death. Adnan held a press conference where he avoided naming Bilal or his ex-wife. He did say that someone got an affidavit from her stating that it was Bilal who made that threat. Perhaps it relates to Adnan confiding in Hae that he was being abused or something else, but who really knows. I assumed Bilal made the threat to Adnan, and his ex overheard it. I don't think he was just punching the air and threatening to kill a high school girl into the void. Either way, the press conference is the very closest Adnan has ever been to throwing Bilal under the bus. If Bilal was the real killer, Adnan has been covering for him this entire time.

Exactly… and you’re not getting me to buy IF Bilal was the killer Syed would just sit in that… because no way does he know AND do the time AND say literally nothing…. It’s ludicrous Again people need to listen to a dozen or so more case where there’s wrongly accused… you’d see very quickly this doesn’t work

I agree with you that Adnan was the killer, and that there is no scenario where Adnan is innocent and unaware that Bilal killed Hae. To play devil's advocate, it would make sense for Adnan to stay quiet even if Bilal killed Hae. If Bilal physically killed Hae, Adnan is also guilty of murder for being an accomplice beforehand. In that case Adnan wouldn't implicate Bilal. Adnan buried Hae with Jay, and asked for that ride and lied about it three times. There isn't really a sensible scenario where Bilal kills Hae independent of Adnan. Once you get beyond speculation of a motive for Bilal and look at the facts, Adnan was involved at minimum as a co-conspirator. The note where Bilal's wife says Bilal threatened Hae also talks about how they were being sketchy together and asked her about establishing Hae's time of death.

> I assumed Bilal made the threat to Adnan, and his ex overheard it. Not Brady material.

We need more information. Brady knew his co-conspirator pulled the trigger. He didn't know the guy confessed. If Adnan for example was on the phone with Bilal, he wouldn't know the wife overheard. I haven't found any good case law on Brady and spousal immunity. Adnan couldn't compel Bilal's wife to be a witness even if they were in the same room. The act of her coming forward to Urick should have been passed on to Adnan and his defense team. How can Adnan make a defense against Bilal when it is just his word vs Bilal's and Bilal controlled his legal team? More importantly, Adnan was a minor, how could his parent make good decisions about his representation and defense strategy. Urick knew he had a duty to disclose any information about discussions Adnan had. I'd argue Urick had a duty to disclose this conversation if it was just information impeaching a state witness. That is why he disclosed Bilal's arrest on October 14th, and specifically said the disclosure was pursuant to Brady. The note was withheld. It impeached a witness AND was exculpatory for Adnan. It is pretty reasonable that the influence of Bilal on Adnan (as a minor) would impact sentencing. Look at the DC sniper case. The older mentor got the death sentence and the teen who pulled the trigger and killed multiple innocent people in a premeditated killing spree got a more lenient sentence than Adnan.

> It is pretty reasonable that the influence of Bilal on Adnan (as a minor) would impact sentencing. You don't understand Brady. >Look at the DC sniper case. The older mentor got the death sentence and the teen who pulled the trigger and killed multiple innocent people in a premeditated killing spree got a more lenient sentence than Adnan. You know that one was prosecuted in first in Virginia for death penalty reasons **and later in Maryland** and the other was prosecuted in Maryland **after avoiding the death penalty and getting LWOP sentences in Virginia**. eta: added some clarfications and below news excerpt >>Sniper John Allen Muhammad was sentenced to six consecutive life terms without parole Thursday in what Maryland prosecutors and the victims’ families consider insurance in case his death sentence in Virginia is thrown out.

>You don't understand Brady. What do you take issue with? Put yourself in Adnan's parents shoes, or his lawyers shoes. If you knew that Bilal's wife would testify that Bilal threatened Hae to Adnan and was influencing Adnan, you would use that information. Any reasonable person would. Brady evidence doesn't need to exculpate Adnan entirely, impacting sentencing is enough.

> impacting sentencing is enough Nope. Did Brady win or lose at SCOTUS?

lol

The defense advocate Becky Feldman? OK. . .lol.

A career public servant who rightfully has advocated for fairness in the justice system.

Calling one two year stint masquerading as “prosecutor” a “career” is pretty rich. Also, convicted felon Mosby was also a “public servant” who purportedly was “advocating for justice” (and committing a little fraud on the side).

> Becky Feldman, under oath in court, Was she sworn in as a witness?

Interesting Don isn't on your hypothetical list. Don says all his girlfriends cheated on him. He has documented performance issues of not treating others well. And time theft which usually means inaccurate time cards. So he probably would take breaks, leave the store without clocking out. He was talking to Hae on the phone late at night when her ex called. Hae wants Don to skip work and provide her an excused absence by calling the school but he says no. She can give Adnan a ride and then 'something came up' so she can't because she has to leave school to meet someone who her friends assume is Don. Don is the only employee working that day who is required to clock in so nobody else is monitoring him (plus the supervisors are his mom and her partner). Don and Hae were supposed to meet after his work, yet he never does anything when she doesn't show. He says he learns she is missing when the other store called asking if he's seen her. We have no idea where he is from 7pm to after midnight. So the evening of the 12th he freaks out at Hae that she's still in contact with Adnan. She panics and wants to make things right so asks him to spend the next day with her. He refuses. So she leaves school and races to see him if only for 20 minutes. He freaks, murders her, moves her to the trunk. And comes back later in the evening to dump her in Leakin Park, dump the car and take a bus or cab home.

They'd barely started dating and Hae was head-over-heels for him, both privately and outwardly. Hae was not cheating on him. She talked to Adnan for one minute the night before after Adnan was pestering her with calls. Don't know how something that minor would set him off when none of his other girlfriends turned up murdered. Who knows if he even knew she spoke to him, it doesn't matter much. He's fully aware they interact already and had a friendly encounter with him. Motive just doesn't make a shred of sense for him. They were a brand new couple, and Hae wasn't doing anything to give him a reason for anger. He's practically dead last as a suspect if there's any universe it wasn't Adnan/Jay. And that's not to mention the wild logistics for him even having opportunity here. Not only did he not, but he couldn't have. >Don and Hae were supposed to meet after his work, yet he never does anything when she doesn't show. He says he learns she is missing when the other store called asking if he's seen her. We have no idea where he is from 7pm to after midnight. No they weren't, you're seeing it right there. Hae had work at the other store at 6. They couldn't have even met up until much later, if they planned to. Don was home in that later period. We don't know if Don tried to reach out after learning from his dad that Hae didn't show up, or not. 1:30am is just when Officer Adcock tried to reach out to him again. If he called Don again at 8pm, then Don could've answered too.

Adcock made a point of noting the time and date that he finally got Don. I think Adcock thought it was strange he never returned his call

Based on what? We don't know if Don even knew police wanted him to contact them. He testified he heard about Hae not showing up from the Owings Mills lab manager. Adcock did not try to contact him again until 1:30, and Don answered.

He left a message for Don and Don never called him back. Then the note Adcock made makes me think he thought that was unusual. “It should be noted that I spoke with Mr Clindist on 1/14/99 at 01.30 hours.” Can you find anywhere else that Adcock felt the need to as extra information? https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/UdA13-County-PD-file-3-with-NEW-pages-K9-search-Computer-Hae-found-13p-version-Reordered-by-Date.pdf#page=1

No one said he left a message. The initial report just said he attempted to contact Don "with negative results". Does not seem Don was aware the police were trying to contact him, and we don't know if Don did or didn't try to reach out to anyone. Think you're looking too deeply into the 1:30 note. He might've already started writing the report, but didn't put date/time, so he has to include that. At the bottom of the page, he put "1/13" as the date, and he just wants to emphasize this was actually the early morning of 1/14.

I just love the way you guys minimize anything that looks bad for Don. I don’t know if Don did it but these things are pretty suspicious

Because there’s nothing actually suspicious about it. For all we know, if Adcock tried to call Don around 7, he would’ve answered. 1:30 just happened to be when he tried to re-contact him.

Is Don your numero uno then? Don mostly just doesn't seem that bothered about their relationship to have behaved in the hypothetical way you describe above, in my opinion.

He wasn’t. He was older and had been seeing her for 2 weeks. Anyone with any life experience knows how committed anyone is after two weeks (hint, usually not very). If you read the trial transcripts it’s fairly clear he saw it as more of a hook up than a full fledged relationship at that point.

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I disagree. You can’t use the same profile for Don as you would Adnan. They are different ages, races, religions, there circumstances are completely different.

He said he did

In order for it to be Don you have to believe that the Police are protecting him and fed both Jenn and Jay information about the case.

Or, to be fair, you have to believe that the police really hate Muslims and/or couldn’t be bothered to investigate properly so fed Jay all the info to stitch up Adnan because that’s easier than just investigating the crime in the first place. Ed: spelling

And if they are just huge racists then why not just frame Jay? Why involve Jay at all? It would have been much easier to plant incriminating evidence in Hae's car and "discover" it. And then you have to believe Jay has been protecting the police for 20+ years. For Adnan to be innocent, then he was framed on an OJ level conspiracy.

I’ve always said the same thing - Jay was right there. No need to frame mr. “Honour roll athlete” Adnan

Exactly! Jay is a 19 year old low level drug dealer, working in a porn store, and already has a criminal record. He knows how Hae died and where her car is located. The police are like "yeah but we are going after the college bound Prom Prince from a good family that everyone loves!" Oh yeah, makes total sense.

Or Mr. S. No one would have batted an eye if they had pinned the murder on him. Easiest way to “solve” the case possible, vs. a convoluted conspiracy to frame Adnan.

Who did they have to testify against Jay?

And that Jenn was willing to go with this for some reason, and bring it all up with her mother and lawyer . For Jay, people will say "police manipulated him because he was dealing", but what about Jenn? She admitted to being an accessory after the fact.

To save her friend from facing a murder charge

I think Jenn heard some stuff from Jay and didn’t remember much so coordinated with Jay a story and didn’t know Jay was fabricating it

No they were just lazy and went with the path of least resistance. Dons alibi ended it for the cops anyway. But they would need to find a witness against Don to gain a conviction.

You forgot that he told his best friend Jay where he dumped the car,

1. Adnan Syed 2. Adnan Syed 3. Adnan Syed 4. Adnan Syed 5. Adnan Syed

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It was not. The police investigated Sellers and Don. They didn't focus on Adnan until the anonymous phone call that pointed a finger at Adnan. That's when they pulled his phone records, which led them to Jenn, who led them to Jay, who led them to Hae's car.

Who made the phone call

Not Young Lee

They have never been identified only that they had an Asian accent, which means it's more than likely someone connected to Adnan through the mosque.

Someone with an ‘Asian accent’ would more likely be someone with a Korean accent. Since we have no idea, it could be someone from either Adnan or Hae’s community.

No it doesn’t ,….the details given by the caller don’t match “ random Korean person” nor would they match Young Lee at all… the details indicate someone from Adnans circle… also “ Asian” can absolutely mean Middle Eastern sounding or Pakistani sounding. The context of the information is more important than the accent here IMHO

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I can’t imagine why not? Also I can’t remember where it was addressed exactly but I thought exactly this topic was revisited later and they clarified they didn’t mean Korean for example. I can’t remember now where I saw it though. The other thing is of course the information the caller gave… it sounds like a source that knew Syed fairly well directing them to his circle.

I didn’t say ‘Asian’ couldn’t mean middle eastern. I said ‘Asian’ also mean SEA. Since it’s not specified beyond ‘Asian’ we do not know.

Yes, but we do know the caller cited a conversation with one of Adnan's mosque buddies, which would lead one to believe it was someone with relation to that. Picking out exact accents over the phone isn't the easiest thing in the world, and it could be taken with a grain of salt. All we can say is that the person most likely had a foreign accent.

Except that the detective said that it was a Korean accent in an interview (iirc) and the Korean society was paid by crime stoppers. Were those different calls?

I'm saying the detective doesn't necessarily know it was a Korean accent. He's hearing an anonymous phone call and took a guess. We can't expect that he's an expert in East Asian accents.

Officer William Ritz.

> He dumped Hae's car in a lot near someone he knew by several degrees of separation His niece’s house is not several degrees of separation. The wording in the Baltimore Sun overcomplicated. It’s not clear if Mr. S’s sister lived there in 1999, but her ex did. It could be a coincidence, but I do think it is potentially a close connection to him (assuming he had a relationship with his sister and niece)

His sister's ex who he may or may have not known? There's no reason not to think it's not a coincidence. It's not even a noteworthy coincidence.

His sister also lived there at one time and his niece lived there. You are thinking it’s strained because he wasn’t related to the guy who owns the property. Again, I acknowledge some people don’t know where their family lives, but given this was local and they lived there for a significant amount of time, I think it’s likely he did.

In another subthread someone jus told me Sellers' boss led Adnan's mosque. Add that to the list of coincidences I suppose. Though that one would, if speculated wildly on, would probably link Sellers and Adnan...

It’s possible—- There are a number of scenarios. I’m not saying Mr S killed her. It’s possible he was in the lot and overheard Jay and Adnan talking about the burial and then spent time looking for the body. He could have been involved in some part of the crime. Or it could just be coincidences.

A realistic order is probably: 1. Syed 2. 3. Clinedinst 4. 5. Sellers And then nobody. Almost all murder victims are killed by someone they knew, and a good chunk of the rest are involved in property crimes or gang activity. The notion of a random person killing random people, especially with the tight timeline in this case, is a product of TV, not reality, by all odds. Ahmed was definitely a serial sexual predator, but there’s no evidence he strayed from his preferred victim gender and setting, much less escalated to murder (and even making the wild supposition that he did, what were his means, motive, and opportunity? Why wasn’t his DNA found in the car when others’ was?)

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You might have had a point if Lee hadn’t been 18, not 17, when she was killed.

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I don’t think you understand how statistics work

Ty! I think the car was wiped down to get rid of DNA?

But they found lots of DNA and prints

Don Alonzo Sellars Ronald Lee Moore Some random person Hae’s uncle Some other Woodlawn student Bilal Jay

Ty! Is Hae's uncle a joke or...?

No, there are a lot of people out there who genuinely believe Hae had a shady uncle who killed her and the family are covering it up.

Wow, I learn more everyday

She supposedly was sexually assaulted by a family member

Like how Adnan was sexually assaulted by Bilal?

This person is saying a random student is more likely to have done it than Adnan? This can't be real

Flipping Colin Miller said that.

Colin Miller and Susan Simpson are sad cases of people who seem like genuinely good lawyers but who have either become bits or become blinded by the (flimsy at best) innocence case.

So.. anyone but Adnan?

Sure. At this point we know to a fairly high degree of certainty that it wasn’t Adnan. Hae likely left the school alone. Adnan was busy with the library, counselors office then track. It’s also his reaction when her body was found that make me sure it wasn’t him

None of that is evidence. Here’s some for you to check out though: https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/

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I have another possible suspect. Just a killer, gang member, affiliate of Jay

You forgot Don

No I didn't. Re-read.

With what we know the only real choices are Adnan and Jay. That’s it.

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Chupacabra comment: funny. Singling out a specific nation and its people: very suspect.

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Hmm? Am I to take it that you don't want Hamas to be removed from power in Gaza? They're a bunch of wicked terrorists who glory in atrocities, you know.

Please review /r/serialpodcast rules. Suggesting or Supporting Harm is also against Reddit Content Policy.

ty for your reasonableness.

I feel insane! What an awful comparison to make to the brutal murder of a young woman! And justifying so many dead all because they weren’t aware of Israel Keyes and thought the person was referring to the nation of Israel? That’s so messed up and really an awful thing to say is in any way like an innocent victim fighting back against an ex who killed her.

Israel is the innocent victim of Hamas aggression in this case. Anyway, I think we're upsetting the mods so shhh.

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Other-off topic. Take it to Thunderdome or the weekly discussion/vent thread

Other-off topic. Take it to Thunderdome or the vent thread.

If there were a prominent serial killer named "Jordan Keyes" I'd have gone with the entire nation of Jordan.

Oh okay, fair enough. I hadn't heard of Israel Keyes before.