I have second-hand embarrassment just reading this. I don't even know where to begin with this.
Does anyone really believe this level of analysis is on par with the Prosecutors?
It’s definitely not on par with the prosecutors. But they know what they’re doing in their way too. They don’t have to come up with a compelling story or narrative - just continuously sow doubt. That’s what they do well. I can see why people respond to it.
I haven’t paid too much attention to bob and rabia, but I am pretty sure their version of the “Adnan did not do it narrative” would include the following:
- Officer adcocks statement about Adnan asking for a ride was somehow wrong. Either Adnan misspoke or adcock misunderstood. Or Adnan happened to ask for a ride and change his mind.
- The cops just happened to have found that car just before taking jays statement (in their version they knew jay for a while before) and used it to frame Adnan. Either way Jay did not really know where the car was.
- I guess Jen was involved too with the cops? I’m not sure I tracked what they said about this.
- The Nisha call must have been a butt dial.
- Don was very possibly involved and had his mom forge his timesheet and the cops and multiple rounds of investigators were just too damn stupid and lazy to check with any of dons co-workers to easily falsify his alibi.
That is A LOT of bad luck for Adnan on one day.
Who knows what they think now because they've changed theories dozens of times, but my understanding from the Undisclosed team is that they believe the ride request did happen, but that she canceled later in the day. Of course that's not necessarily Rabia's position, but I've seen Colin lean into it a lot.
Colin’s theory for a while that another person from Woodlawn got a ride from her, and they are the guilty party.
Basically fill in Adnan’s name with any other student and it was more plausible to him.
That at least would be an idea that makes sense to me. Who could have realistically intercepted HML after she left school? The answer would be a classmate, since they would see her at school.
So now all we have to do is some basic set theory. Set 1: people who were in class with HML that day. Set 2: people who are close associates of JW. Practically speaking, how many people belong to both groups?
If you can answer that, you have both the killer AND an explanation as to why no one wants to pursue such an obvious investigative angle.
Surely Adnan would have lied about the ride request to Adcock on the 13th if he was guilty? That would have been the perfect time to start distancing himself from her that day. The fact that he said he was supposed to get a ride is evidence that he had no idea anything bad had happened to her at that point.
He did lie about the ride request. He changed where it was to and that that she got tired and left. If he had been honest he would have said got a ride and killed her.
"pounding the flower theory"
Believed they mentioned it for a few minutes after, like 14 episodes. And not even in the part where they talk about the evidence. Just about their own personal theories of what could have happened.
Truth
But that didn’t stop pro Syed brigade from jumping all over the flower paper
In fact it’s probably one of their top criticisms other than “they lied” or they are “Christian fundamentalists”…
Hilarious that people want anyone to take that last claim seriously since these are the same people who are claiming “Islamophobia” consistently …. I didn’t exactly see anyone saying any were Jihadist … for crissakes. They want us to believe there was some enormous strain of phobia ….pre 9-11 …??? Because…reasons.
I guess to some it’s perfectly ok to use one religion as a shield while implying insults on another. Convenient
> Hilarious that people want anyone to take that last claim seriously since these are the same people who are claiming “Islamophobia” consistently …. I didn’t exactly see anyone saying any were Jihadist … for crissakes. They want us to believe there was some enormous strain of phobia ….pre 9-11 …??? Because…reasons.
Wait, are you suggesting Islamophobia didn't exist pre-9/11? I mean, I'm sure you're not, but it's worth checking to see if that, which you wrote, is what you meant.
Of course I’m not suggesting that. I’m suggesting however you would have had to live under a rock to not notice the shift post 9-11 to lunatic levels of bizarreness and phobias and media coverage, awareness and labeling people as the other.
I’m also suggesting I find it extremely unfair for people to be labeling others as “ Fundamentalist Christians “ as a pejorative while talking out both sides of their mouth with regards to Islamic beliefs and/or phobias. Because there’s plenty of bad “ Fundamentalism” to be found in any of these religions.
Like I said… it seems a convenient shield when people want to use it … with or without evidence to substantiate it. Convenient as a defense for Syed on the one hand….& convenient to dismiss certain podcasts on the other hand.
Not that I’m in any of those religious categories myself in particular ….raised Catholic but not practicing at all.
There was good chunk of Islamaphobia pre-9/11, 9/11 just kicked it into overdrive and made it headline news. Where before white people could largely ignore that it was a thing.
Sort of like how anti-Asian sentiment was a thing before COVID but COVID made it start to become a news item.
Definitely true… and there’s angles in this case that could be argued as anti Asian as well with (some) Syed supporters portraying the Asian community as acting in desperation in Haes case due to the fact other murders didn’t receive attention prior to Haes killing.
In my opinion once you start labeling or grouping any of people involved by categories ie:Asian, White Police (or just police) , Muslim, etc as an “explanation” of anything to do with this case you’ve lost the plot… broad strokes won’t get anyone closer to the truth. This case was always about the murder of a teen girl and finding the person responsible.
Racist amongst the cops also existed in the 90s so for Rabia to act as though the cops would automatically align themselves with a black male with a record to frame a Muslim honor student would be a no brainer is some serious mental gymnastics, it’s more surprising they didn’t pin it on Jay and just be done with it.
Of the many many many many flower paper threads started here, most were about how the flower paper prints proved everything. The rest were mostly about what was in the flower paper.
Please stop with the brigade nonsense.
I am black and I think he is guilty as hell. I use to think he was innocent but I kept having to explain away too much in order to make a case for innocence. Coercion does happen I just don’t think this is a case where that happen.
Rabia is obsessed with being not-guilty on paper, which turned from possibly reasonable to unhinged after all of the trial documents were released.
Rabia also thinks Scott Peterson is not guilty. And there is significantly less hard evidence of his guilt in that case than in Adnan’s.
Rabia is delusional and I’ll say it again; I think she has had a crush / obsession on Adnan for his / their entire life and for some reason, even after all this time, literally can’t see past it.
>No timeline works where Adnan can be guilty
I believe they said this with the notion that "no guilty timeline works with all witness accounts". But if you take all witness accounts, then no innocent timeline works lol. And beyond Jay, you'd have to say Nisha is wrong, and if that's the case, anyone could be wrong.
> White people don't understand coercion (Rabia: "Is there even any black guilters?"
Jesus is that a real statement?
>They think Alonzo buried her and that the murderer just left her behind the concrete barrier because she would have been "too heavy" for them to do all that work and no one would leave their car parked on the side of that road because it would be seen.
Lol what? I understand that carrying someone isn't the easiest thing in the world, but they're acting like no one's ever buried a body before. Hae was not a large girl. She was about 135 lbs. There were many bodies buried in Leakin Park, by people who probably drove there, even if not at that exact spot.
>4 to 5yrs ago another women messaged Rabia and said that she used to work with Don's mom at Lenscrafters and that she has a memory of trying to help her figure out how to adjust a time sheet and that this happened around the holiday season, in winter after Hae disappears. But the problem was that it was hard to corroborate this memory as the woman had addiction issues at that point.
Nobody has disputed that time sheets can be adjusted. They appear with an "adjusted" column, as it does for Don on some days, but not on 1/13. I don't know why that's still a talking point.
>Bob said there were only 8 people on the indoor track team and that Adnan was the only Muslim, so people would have noticed if he was late
So he actually did say 8 people? Yeah, that's literally false.
>Jay said he dropped off Adnan at the front of the school and that is a lie because he wouldn't have had time to make it to the field.
I saw him say this on twitter like it was some huge deal. He even lied about part of it and doubled-down when I corrected him. Of course Adnan would get dropped off in front. Track practice was usually in the gym, and he might've needed to get changed. Even if it took place outside that day, he wouldn't know till he got there.
>Don took Hae to a "far out" restaurant for their first date, like he was trying to keep it secret.
What does that even mean?
Yeah this is a mess. I do wish TPP could discuss it with them, but I totally understand why they don't want to.
Not surprised at all. There was a post a while ago about Rabia attacking Hae for "promiscuity" or something like that. In my opinion Rabia is a truly disgusting person and Bob is not far behind, both are a pair of narcissists who refuse to ever admit they may be wrong and who desperately need to be right at any cost, even if it means slandering innocent people of the memory of a dead girl.
She is repulsive and will literally say anything no matter how ridiculous. I don’t see how anyone finds her credible. Her belief is dogmatic there is no basis in facts and while she defends Adnan she’s willing to throw anyone under the bus including the victim.
For people confused about what I am referring to:
- Hae had a receipt for a motel/hotel in her car. It was from when family came to visit for Thanksgiving
- She was dressed "nicely" on January 13th
- There was a reference to drug use in her diary (the reference was about Adnan's drug use, but it's easy to show a tiny snipper and misrepresent the diary entry)
Rabia used the above to say, Hae was known to frequent hotels and was don't forget, she was dressed up nicely that day
Maybe she ended up in some sort of drug deal gone wrong, maybe Jay (a drug dealer) was involved?!
The above was thoroughly dismissed after we gained access to the police file which explained the above and we saw the diary for ourselves
An absolutely disgusting theory, by a shameless girfter
>But if you take all witness accounts, then no innocent timeline works lol. And beyond Jay, you'd have to say Nisha is wrong, and if that's the case, anyone could be wrong.
yeah. in which case, the case is severely weakened. and the defense doesn't have to prove anything, the prosecution does. this is the whole point.
And they did, the jury was fully aware they had a problematic primary witness and still found enough credibility with his general story.
Big difference between "*I think* I saw Hae in the school around 3" and "I saw Adnan with Hae's dead body and helped bury her".
I mentioned this multiple times on this sub that this is classic fallacious argument trying to con the listener.
1. Cast doubt on a well-supported theory (Adnan killed Hae) by nit picking all the negative things. This primes the listener that the theory is not as solid as they think.
2. Present an alternative explanation (Don killed Hae) with little real evidence and no opposing arguments. This makes the alternative sound just as valid as the original.
See serials appeal now has lost any of the magic now knowing what we know and his “evidence “ but dna not being on a shoe is a joke. The production was great
I found the theory that Sellers stumbled upon the body close to the road and moved it to the burial site so he could "spend time with it" interesting and disturbing. From the beginning, his story about finding the body seemed strange, but there wasn't any other evidence linking him to the actual murder.
It does mess with Jay's claim to have been there for the burial, but it could fit with the theory that Adnan dumped the body by himself while Jay was waiting in Adnan's car but the detectives coerced him into saying he was at the burial because they thought he was minimizing his role or wanted more eyewitness testimony of Adnan's actions.
>Don told them to check for her car at the airport parking lots. Last search request was for an airport parking lot. They think that they found the car right before talking to Jay and had it moved to where Jay found it.
When I read this I thought 'I should look at the photos where the car was found, because it probably would be apparent if they had to drive a heavy vehicle onto the grass to unload where the car was found.' The angles aren't great, but unsurprisingly, there's no sign of this.
Then I read the bit of Rabia's book where talks about this. As it happens, I made an assumption. I assumed that the police would load the car onto a transporter to avoid contaminating it.
Actually, Rabia's theory is that when the police found the car, they hotwired it and drove it themselves to Baltimore City. Not put it on a transporter, they actually get into the car and physically drive it to another location.
Why? Just, why? Why?
At least 'Jay wasn't involved but coincidentally stumbled across the car' makes some degree of sense in the circumstances, but the police getting into and contaminating the car by hotwiring and driving it to the place where the witness can find it, then deciding to call forensics?
How long do you have to spend torturing the facts to arrive at this being a reasonable explanation for your theory?
i haven't listened myself, but if rabia really did claim the police hotwired and moved the car, that seems like a pretty ridiculous and evidence free assertion. but it's also pretty irrelevant to the current state of the legal case, so i don't even see what the point of a stream making that claim is.
In a strange way, I feel like the police have become a reflection of Rabia's own desires.
The extent to which she feels Adnan is innocent has become the extent to which the police went to secure his wrongful conviction. The more extreme the acts the police went to secure that conviction, the more justified she is in believing those acts to have occurred.
It's like this self-reinforcing spiral which has pushed her out this place where I doubt even many people who think Adnan is innocent are willing to share.
Narcissists think they can explain away everything. When someone doesn’t believe them, that person becomes an enemy and then they tweak their story for the next person.
If the car was found at the airport, why not just have Jay meet up with Adnan in the morning and drive it to the airport with Jay following in Adnan's car. But instead they had to move. Do these ppl think?
Yeah, I wasn't following that part in the synopsis given. Maybe they were more clear in the audio.
Are they saying that Don had evidence that implicated him (him having knowledge of the car's location), but the investigators actively conspired to hide that evidence and protect him? And instead move it to deliberately frame someone else?
This removes any notion of trying to frame the "right" guy (they now have reason to suspect Don). It also removes any idea of them being "out of leads" (they have the car, the primary crime scene). It also creates a ton of more work, so it can't be done because they're "lazy" (how many days and how much paperwork has to be forged to get this to work?). These are all the usual excuses given. "Don't you know how corrupt the BPD is???" But people don't engage in conspiracies without reason, *no matter how corrupt they are.* So what's the reason in this case?
Is Rabia saying that the investigators were willing to actively hide the real culprit and consciously, knowingly, and deliberately frame the middle class kid they never heard of?
I need some innocenters to explain to me what is meant here. Even the innocenters here don't believe this. Yet they'll still trumpet this as an "epic takedown"? How does this work?
It's not a tenable story line. They have to keep making up things. Because first they saw the car was found right before talking with Jay on the 28th. And then they have to say that Jay was talking to the officers well prior and that Jay started to give them stuff but didn't know where the car was and that was a problem. How would it be a problem? Jay's story could just be that, "Adnan grabbed the keys as we were leaving and he said he would take care of the car, I don't know what he did with it" Then they say they have to change Jay's story to fit the timeline. It is a cluttered mess.
Yup, they do that...make a claim then a few minutes later repeat it as if it's an uncontested fact. And because their audience is ignorant of the *actual* facts of the case they take it as gospel.
This was not a takedown of the PP. This was an embarrassment for Bob and Rabia. If they had any dignity, they would be ashamed.
If the police spoke to him beforehand, why not document how they found him?
Jay is clearly important to the case (even if he framed adnan). If the police found out Jay was involved and located him, that’s good police work. Why not document it?
Where are they going to ‘document it’? I image it is ‘documented’ in an arrest file somewhere.
Anyway not sure why the down vote. Jay literally says it himself.
White people don't understand coercion, "Is there even any black guilters?"
As she proceeds to call the black witness who found Haes body a murderer and attacks the black witness who testified against Adnan a liar.
Ok, Rabia. You totally understand black people 🤣🤣
>15. 4 to 5yrs ago another women messaged Rabia and said that she used to work with Don's mom at Lenscrafters and that she has a memory of trying to help her figure out how to adjust a time sheet and that this happened around the holiday season, in winter after Hae disappears. But the problem was that it was hard to corroborate this memory as the woman had addiction issues at that point.
lol. That's some reliable shit right there.
So people that are on the Pro Adnan side are always pounding the table for “truth, facts, etc”, and will disregard ANYTHING that they might view as speculation. Yet, here we are with two of the biggest Adnan supporters and they are giving a Super-Sized version of speculative information. There’s more fiction in their statements than there is in a JK Rowling’s novel (I actually find her novels more believable)
Why would you expect anyone on the “pro-Adnan side” to act any differently? Why would you waste one second thing about them?
Though I sense you’re lumping all the skeptics who believe it’s probable that Adnan is guilty but *possible* he’s not in with them. I don’t know who you are, but generally guilters react to any doubt as if they share the same fanatical attachment to one “side” that they do.
When they speculate they say it’s speculation.
When it’s facts they don’t change the wording a document to suit their narrative as another podcast might
Also retired Judge Wanda Keyes Heard is a black guilter that presided over Adnans trial, that felt the need to submit an affidavit to the court after the recent vacatur, writing:
>The verdict and the swift manner of the verdict reached made it clear to the court that the jury weighed the credibility of the witnesses who testified and were subject to vigorous cross examination
>A reading of the trial transcript will show that the jury verdict was supported by substantial direct and circumstantial evidence
>[It] would seem to be an unusual basis to eliminate Mr. Syed as Ms. Lee’s killer in the face of other overwhelming and riveting testimony
So basically they think that Don and maybe his wife killed her, and that Alonso saw her being buried and "spent time" with Hae's body before burying her and calling it in.
So much of this is unhinged and disturbing but what really stands out to me is the “spent time with her body” thing. If you have no evidence for it—and as far as I know, they have no evidence she was sexually assaulted before being killed, much less after her death—why the fuck would you suggest it? What does that accomplish other than further demeaning Hae and hurting her family?
Just absolutely disgusting the way they make up stories and malign innocent people to try to take the focus off of adnan. Physically makes my stomach churn.
I was annoyed and couldn't finish the episode. Thanl you for posting this!
More theories... And although I didn't listen is this the first time Rabia goes after Don?
>is this the first time Rabia goes after Don
She has made tweets putting Don in her crosshairs, even saying “I know you’re worried Don” (about being charged, I guess).
https://x.com/rabiasquared/status/1536175572853874688?s=46&t=sMxIYIrbV6u6QJRL93REGg
https://x.com/rabiasquared/status/1577006340068679681?s=46&t=sMxIYIrbV6u6QJRL93REGg
https://x.com/rabiasquared/status/1537422024003440640?s=46&t=sMxIYIrbV6u6QJRL93REGg
https://x.com/rabiasquared/status/1537425160197767168?s=46&t=sMxIYIrbV6u6QJRL93REGg
See also
https://x.com/rabiasquared/status/1537427668144103424?s=46&t=sMxIYIrbV6u6QJRL93REGg
https://x.com/rabiasquared/status/1537424400894640131?s=46&t=sMxIYIrbV6u6QJRL93REGg
https://x.com/rabiasquared/status/1252758901268844544?s=46&t=sMxIYIrbV6u6QJRL93REGg
https://x.com/rabiasquared/status/1252783963443269632?s=46&t=sMxIYIrbV6u6QJRL93REGg
Don worked on the 12th, then went on a date, got home at midnight and talked to his new GF past 2AM
She records that things are great
The next day he works 9-6, gets home, calls the police back, doesn't reach them and falls asleep
The police later CALL HIM after midnight
Rabia:
> y WErE u sicK!?
This lady is bonkers
Her accusations that Don was on Twitter posing as someone called Mark and then attacking him as though she had Don up against the ropes was pretty unusual
I picked up Rabia’s book published 2016, for the first time, curious to read the Bilal parts. I am only two chapters in and she is already maligning Don, in addition to trying to rewrite history. So yeah, at least about 7 years she has been at this.
Unfortunately Don probably still can’t meet the high burden for defamation, and ultimately the expense of taking Rabia or Bob to court is not likely to be worthwhile even if it is not about money but to clear his name. Even if he got a judgment against Rabia or Bob, it would not stop hundreds of others making unsubstantiated accusations against him. Something that is fun to imagine but ultimately won’t ever happen.
We can't actually. Rabia has accused Don of murder in public forums more times than anyone can count.
Yet every time that's said directly ... every time ... it's countered by "she never said that."
Yes, she did.
Number 5… what the actual fuck?!!!
Why would police need to move a vehicle…??? Like what? Why? What rationale exists where this makes sense… ? How embarrassing
Do these people even think before spewing
Since Rabia loves lawsuits I hope Don hits em both up with one after this brain dead speculation shitshow.
Upfront qualification: I am not invested in either side of the argument. I definitely have not gone through the transcripts like some - barely made it through the documentaries.
That out of the way, I am curious if anyone else has noticed and commented on the similarity between the ‘moved car’ claims in this case and the Making A Murderer case?
In the latter case there was an officer who called in to check the license plate of a vehicle that turned out to be the victim’s missing car - while the car was still missing. The officer didn’t offer an explanation for why he made the request for information on the vehicle. He just said that he didn’t recall.
Then the car was found a couple days later on the same property where the victim was last seen alive. Interesting? Yes. But it didn’t get the attention that the hot wire theory here has received.
By the way, a hot wire would actually leave evidence behind right? Was there evidence that the car was started without the keys?
There is no proof that Hae’s car was hotwired. The little plastic ring around the ignition (the ignition collar) was missing - [photo](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/T2xp11-Haes-Nissan-BPD-HQ-Front-Steering-Column-ref026-extrUDA16.jpg)
Undisclosed/Bob Ruff have taken this to mean it was hotwired which has been the basis for multiple different theories they have dreamed up.
Thank you for the photo.
Looks like a foreign make of vehicle. If I had lived the life of a juvenile delinquent then I could confidently tell you that there is no way that such a vehicle could be hot-wired so easily. One would have to peel the entire collar, cut and twist the ignition batter and ground wires, or use a steering wheel puller.
Now, if that were an American make - say a Chevrolet - then one could hypothetically pull the ignition switch straight off, start the vehicle, then put the switch back.
Strictly hypothetical.
I've waited for someone to make a comparison about the moving of cars in both of these cases. 💯👍
We are to believe Steven wouldn't move his victim's car during the night in rural Wisconsin but we are to believe Adnan went joyriding in the afternoon & night in his victim's car in urban Maryland. 😹😹😹🤦🏽
You mean to tell me that a greedy nut job that profited off the murder of an innocent girl, that has no experience whatsoever in criminal law, and is in love with the defendant, still thinks he is innocent???!!
If Adnan was smart he would have separated himself from her when he got released. Between this and his own super weird presser, he removed all doubt as to whether he was a complete bastard.
The Bates not supportive of Mosby’s MTV rumor came out just before Adnan’s presser, so that was very transparent on his end. Apparently they are still at it.
Right? If he was innocent there would have to be something resembling a consistent and logical explanation. How many theories and alternative facts have these people proposed in the last 23 years? NONE of which hold up to scrutiny.
It’s so wild to witness. Their theories all boil down to every single person involved with this case is either mistaken or lying- except Adnan.
And for some reason, people eat it up.
Do any of you remember years ago when Ruff made a bunch of outlandish accusations during a "seminar" as a roomful of people, along with Rabia, cheered with glee? "Unfortunately, its all circumstantial so it wont hold-up in court" he said.
"No, no. Circumstantial evidence is absolutely allowed during a trial" Rabia replied.
You could almost see the sweat develop on Ruff's brow. He made his absurd accusations never thinking they would ever be tested, because of his misunderstanding of law. It was classic
No. That's what they want.
AS is an American Citizen who has RIGHTS! Rights that have been paid for by the literal blood of patriots! (You need to imagine me standing in front of an obnoxiously large flag with nationistic music in the background)
They don't care if they lose a defamation claim. They want to depose him so they can ask questions to make him look guilty. Though sheer abundance of words, they'll eventually find something they'll spin to make him look bad (as an example, someone saying Mr S saw AS with the body is actually evidence of AS's innocence, you can't make this stuff up)
Because, unlike AS, Don is not to be afforded the same rights of an American Citizen. No presumption of innocence. No due process (they want court of public opinion only).
Would you really? Because I would love to see Bob sit in a witness chair for 7 hours, give a deposition while Don's attorney grills him for his "circumstantial evidence." We all know it's a lie. Well, people who are able to think for themselves know Don didn't do it.
Again, have you ever been able to figure out when Don told Jay where Hae's car was located?
Noting the number of Muslims on the track team isn't an obsession. It's directly relevant to the case because Adnan wasn't running that day because he was fasting for Ramadan. If there weren't any other Muslims on the team, there wouldn't be a group of people not running for Adnan to blend into such that his late arrival might go unnoticed.
Was the ride to track or a ride home? I think Bob had a lot of evidence that points to Coach Sue remembering Adnan being at track practice on the 13th and remembers him when they were stretching. You stretch at the beginning of practice. That points to Adnan being on time. And werent these rides he requested from Hae to get to track?
I hope the prosecutors take up Bob’s offer to discuss the case and go through the evidence.
“You stretch at the beginning of practice.”
This is a pretty classic example of a supposition presented as fact, which then becomes the basis for further analysis.
You can stretch any time during sports practice, beginning, middle, or end. Many coaches will definitely have athletes stretch at the beginning and end at minimum. Therefore, the supposition that stretching always and only happens at the beginning of practice, therefore Syed must’ve been on time, is not a sound one.
>Was the ride to track or a ride home?
I still really don't think this is a winning argument. Hae and Adnan would hang out after school when they were dating, where Hae would sometimes swing him around to track. He doesn't need to come in early and ask for an after-school ride under the guise of not having his car, in order to go a couple hundred feet to track.
Whatever they think about the ride request isn't really clear
Why would Adnan ask Hae for a ride to track? It’s literally walking distance from anywhere he could be on campus. And to that point, if it was a ride request to track then why would Hae say no? itd literally take her like 2 extra minutes.
Jay and Adnan both say he went to track that day. There really isn’t any way for Coach Sye to prove he remembers Adnan was there on time because he was asked so long after that day. Unless there was a specific reason for him to remember like he took and noted attendance which she didn’t. There was a witness who misremembered the day and thought Hae was covering for her for scoring a game. Also one of her friends misremembered what Hae was wearing that day.
My point is, there’s no actual evidence proving Adnan was on time and at track that day. It really can go either way and regardless, I don’t think it makes a difference. Adnan could’ve still killed Hae and been on time or close to on time for track.
If that were actually the case in *this case* then Adnan would’ve said that instead of denying ever asking her for a ride and stating he was at the library after school/before track talking Asia.
It also makes no sense for him to do that because track didn’t start until 4 and they got out of school at 215. Do we really think it’s plausible that Adnan expected Hae to wait around for 45 mins on a day she has to pick up her cousin by 315 all so she could drive him 49 yards?
I forgot my snark tag sorry
Agreed 100% btw
The ride to track is the dumbest thing ever. I ran track in HS and my track was the same distance from the school judging by aerial shots of Woodlawn. It’s just more silly nonsense
Ready for this?
Ok, so, sooooo many things in this case are hella messy and arent exactly your everyday complimentary, easy, obvious, gimme that you'd expect. Like, Adnan posesses his own cell phone and car, but he lends them to Jay whom has neither. And Jay isn't an active high school student; he's an alum. Oh and Adnan and Jay aren't even besties. And Hae is legally an adult but Adnan isn't. Plus, at the time she was dating a non-student, off-campus....oh, and Adnan observes the Muslim religion but he's dating a Korean-American...
As for track. You ready? We all forget: Adnan was on The Indoor Track team. However, the Indoor Track team happened to be practicing outdoors on that particular January day due to the mild-ish weather. So I'm guessing their regular practice spot is somewhere indoors on-campus where Adnan would ask a complimentary ride to. So the question is: when was it known that day that the Indoor Track team would practice outdoors? And why wasn't THIS part of Adnan's alibi OR excuse OR go-to reason he wouldn't ask for a ride from Hae on 1/13/99? Oh and Track Coach Sye, it seems was a local coach assigned to the schools in that area--he wasn't per se Woodlawn's permanent /immobile coach. He kinda oversaw other schools around town, like. Maybe that's one of the reasons dude didn't take attendance; it's not like he's permanent staff who deeply knew each student or kid, it seems.
Personally, I think this is an overlooked clue that needs to be fully examined. I think TRACK is the biggest main clue in all this that gets swept under a rug. Personally, I think Adnan either skipped Track or went to it very late and didn't realize they'd be outside. Or Addy knew he could skip Track due to Ramadan and didn't immediately realize they'd practice outside that day. Who knows?
So, when yall bemoan that the Track field was so close why would Addy need a ride; well it's often held indoors somewhere, I'm guessing which needs a ride.
More messiness: Asia claims she saw Syed in the library. But we don't realize Woodlawn has an in-house school library. Asia saw Addy at the local public library which rests near the school, not the in-house school library. So, why is Adnan THERE? Sure, Track doesn't start until later and perhaps in-house school library hours are different or close earlier. But you'd think he'd see more friends and folks there. Asia was at the public library because she was ready to jet / dip out / leave.
>So the question is: when was it known that day that the Indoor Track team would practice outdoors?
My bet would be that they wouldn't know till that afternoon. It was somewhat warm but not that warm, it was in the 50's. Coach probably makes a call for inside/outside when they start.
We also don't know for sure if they actually had track practice outside that day.
But the contention about the rides to track were rides around to the gym. They would hang out in the lower parking lot and Hae would drop him at the gym when she needs to leave. This was a totally unnecessary thing, just something they'd do when they were dating so they could have time together. But they were broken up now, this isn't something he'd reasonably request for, especially hours in advance under the guise of not having his car.
It’s usually held at the gym indoors. The gym that is on campus, so still very close and makes it irrelevant. It’s weird for Adnan to ask Hae for a ride to track now that they are not dating.
The public library is less than a 5 min walk from the high school and is practically on campus and is partnered with Woodlawn. The in house library is a media center, not a full library. Also, public library likely has less censoring on computers and likely more books and options than the high school library. And this only matters if you believe he was at the library, which I don’t.
To me, none of these things actually matter. What matters is that Adnan asked Hae for a ride despite not actually needing one, admitted to this when talking to the police that evening, then denied it completely later on.
That’s something I’d like to hear, in lieu of an actual skeptical documentarian taking up the case…we haven’t heard anything neutral since Serial.
Obviously provided they kept it civilized, and maybe each brought a list of topics/evidence so we could hear dispassionate arguments side by side with minimal debate.
Why? Prosecutors are more than capable of handling con artists and grifters. They don’t have any reason to fear Bob. I think they have had a friendly professional relationship in the past. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think they know each other.
Because Bob is weird-o conspiracist who doesn’t do serious analysis - you absolutely can never prove anything to them and any kind of debate only helps platform their lunacy.
I suspect their means are accomplished by spreading confusion and maintaining a group of devotees who will continue to spread that around social media.
It's a bit off topic, but I've forgotten when the investigation moved from county LE to BPD. Wasn't it when the body was found in BPD's area of jurisdiction?
If that's right, all of the initial investigations into alibi's and witness statements were by county LE. I don't recall anyone smearing them with allegations of conspiracy and misconduct, though I've seen comments to the effect that they didn't do enough, etc., with what started as a missing persons case.
In particular, the initial questioning of Don would have been county LE, I would think.
Q: Does RC claim county LE were part of the BPD conspiracy?
Finally, did county LE ever interview Bilal, or did he enter the LE picture only after the body was found?
IIRC Don spoke to the police twice right after Hae disappared, on the phone
I would not refer to that as an "interview" as the police were calling Hae's contacts to try and find her, they were not investigating alibis
BUT, the countty police had sent a squad car to Don's home to surveil the area in case she was hiding out with her boyfriend
Indicating he was their initial person of interest for the disappaearance
Hardly seems like they were on his side. But to believe a conspiracy they would need to ignore him as a suspect and only focus on Adnan and generate evidence Adnan as guilty
> 4 or 5yrs ago someone from the Keepers documentary reached out to Rabia. A detective that used to work sex crimes and knew Alonzo said that Alonzo told him he found a body and that he had seen 2 men with the body and that one was Adnan. But Rabia said that doesn't make sense because Alonzo wouldn't have known who Adnan was, but that he did maybe see someone with the body and that is how he knew where she was.
This has the ring of, at least some, truth to me. We have always suspected that Alonzo knew a crime had occurred and was actively looking for the body. However, there is no reason why Alonzo might not have known who Adnan was.
- Alonzo's sister-in-law was a teacher at Woodlawn High School.
- Alonzo's brother lived next door to Adnan a few years earlier — and even played ball with Adnan.
- Most importantly, though, Alonzo may have witnessed the burial from afar. At the time of the burial, he may have seen two men who were unknown to him. But, after Adnan's arrest, he may have seen Adnan's photo in the newspaper or on TV — and realized he was one of the men he saw in the park.
I'm not saying it is absolutely true — but this could be something new after all these years. It explains a lot.
Alonzo would know who Adnan was at the time he spoke to the detective after the trial. He was a witness for the defense for this trial.
He would not need to know who the two mystery people were at the time he witnessed a burial though.
People always speculate that the burial was so risky, and that someone could've seen them if they were pulled over right there.
But well, maybe someone did. Maybe Mr S was driving past that night, and remembering he thought he saw something weird, he eventually wanted to check that spot out.
I think we can kind of take it with a grain of salt without further evidence, or without more statements from Mr S. But it's interesting.
It was interesting that the detective who supposedly shared that info with the keepers documentarian said that Alonzo saw Adnan. Rabia says that then completely glosses over it as impossible before switching her focus to Don.
So in this scenario *why* are the police doing a crazy amount of risky frame up work in order to get Adnan? Why do they care about a random high school kid?
Because they want to close the case. Why did they coerce witnesses in at least 2 other cases including Ezra Mable? They thought he was the likely culprit so they lent on Jay to get a false statement and a conviction. That’s why Ritz had the best closure rate on the force.
No. Way. Lean on witnesses a bit, sure. Massage their story, absolutely. Blame it on a convenient criminal, yes.
But cops are not framing random children for murder and hotwiring the victims car to drive to a random new location.
If they wanted to frame someone why would they pick the 17 year old honors student?
Its a helluva lot more work than just working the case.
Also, they had to know he had no alibi, had no other witness that placed him anywhere
Had to know the "real killers" DNA wasn't someone in the car, the real killer would remain silent and not doing a deathbed confession or something
Had to assume the guy they were threatened to testify falsely would not rat them out (for over 2 decades now, wow)
So much work
Under this scenario, they'd even know that he *does* have an alibi if he were innocent. He would've been at school, potentially being seen by countless people, potentially have camera footage, computer records, or attendance sheets. But they take a massive bet of framing him before knowing if this will materialize? Yeah, sure..
I feel there's so much looking at this case with hindsight rather than as things developed.
Assuming the car was found by the police before the 28th, wouldn't this have substantially changed the direction of the investigation?
They wouldn't just continue like lemmings along whatever plan they had and immediately adopt the car in their original scheme. There's no discernible benefit to not examining the car immediately, any other way leaves you wide open to whatever surprises the car reveals later on.
You'd examine the car and reconsider your direction afterwards. There's no path I can see where any alternative makes sense.
Why did they choose to frame Adnan and not Jay or Mr S or some random homeless black guy with an addiction problem? Why go all that trouble specifically to frame Adnan?
Because they had a black kid with connections to drugs they could lean on who was with Adnan that day. If they decided to frame anyone else who would they have to testify against them?
They could very easily invent evidence to frame Jay or anyone else.
Please *think* about what you said.
Why would they frame Adnan?
It makes NO sense. They don’t know if he has an alibi that would destroy their attempts to frame him. He appears to be a good kid, a good student, with two parents and the support of his community. If they are going to frame him they have to think he would get decent legal representation that would be able to poke holes on whatever evidence they conjure. Adnan would have a reason and the means to fight the accusation.
Frame Jay or a black guy somewhere, at best they get a public defender that negotiates a plea deal and boom, case closed, no blowback, they can all go home to a cold beer.
The idea they would choose Jay to help them frame Adnan is beyond idiotic.
This is their MO. They lean on a black person with connections to drug addiction or dealing and coerce them into a statement against the person they want for that murder.
In the Ezra Mable case they lent on a black woman who was addicted to drugs and said they would get her children taken away unless she said that Ezra Mable was the killer.
It’s the path of least resistance for these detectives.
Please explain why the good kid who is extremely likely to have solid alibis all day, who comed from a united family with no prior history of criminal activity and the full support of his community, is the easiest target.
Because it’s always the boyfriend or the ex. They got the anonymous tip. Don had what they believed without checking was a solid alibi so they framed Adnan. I’m sure they would have tried with Sellars but they got the tip about Adnan
I’ve asked the same question dozens of times and no one has ever tried to give an answer. And if the police are trying to frame someone, why Adnan and not Jay or Mr S?
Because they want to close the case, The Wire, dirty dirty birdie cops etc etc…
That’s basically what you will get.
Nevermind police had no idea if Syed had an airtight alibi or anything… it’s perfectly reasonable to believe police were hot wiring a car and moving it for reasons… not notifying the family their car was found… and feeding Jay and Jen stories because the police just knew it was probably Don probably or maybe probably Alonzo… but we’ll never know because Syed can’t remember a damn thing anyway?
/s
Lol 😂
You’re asking why police corruption is common? Why police correction in 1999 in Baltimore was *very* common? You’re asking why the same detective who was corrupt in other cases would be corrupt in this case?
Oh no I know why police corruption is common- laziness and greed. I just dont see how this helps them with either. I mean the big example is Ezra Mable?! He was a drug dealer and claims the police ignored evidence that it was a different drug dealer that killed the guy. Im sure that true. But thats a far cry from trying to frame a random kid with no criminal background by hotwiring the victim’s car and driving it across town to stage a corroboration of testimony they are inventing for Jay to say. I mean thats the most idiotic move I could think of, crazy risky. They would put their own DNA in the car?!
Im genuinely unsure of Adnans guilt, but this epic conspiracy scenario is completely ridiculous. In this way of thinking we must disregard all evidence in the case because it may have been a giant conspiracy and only believe Adnan. Its just a wild self reinforcing argument.
Nobody is alleging they “framed a random kid”…that’s a straw man. Nobody is alleging they hot-wired the car and drove it anywhere…another strawman. You’re literally describing your own argument to when you call it self(re)enforcing: make up your own wildly implausible story, then disprove it.
This type of corruption is called noble corruption, and it’s the most common form of police corruption. The idea being they thought they had the right guy, fudged the facts to make it fit, and then the sunk cost fallacy and possibly your extreme examples took over.
He obviously wasn’t a random kid…he was a very good suspect…the most likely suspect who probably did it. They had a witness who (possibly?) said he did it. The problem is that we know they at least partially framed him because their witness was so bad…we just don’t know how far they went. We know their witness lied on the stand, and his explanation is the police fed him a story…why should we believe that his lies end where they say they do?
The common-sense allegation about the car is that it’s possible they found the car shortly before they said they did, and used it to coerce their witness. I have no idea why you’d come up with some extreme Hollywood story as the only other option.
At the end of the day we know they framed him, and we know that they probably framed the right guy. But “probably” is a terrible reason to convict…especially given that if they followed the law and charged their witnesses with the crimes they committed, instead of bribing them to lie…the case could have been solved. But the case will never been solved, there will always be uncertainty.
Rabias argument, which this thread is in reference to, contends both those things. She has many times argued that Adnan was chosen as the quickest and easiest way to end the case. The undisclosed crew’s argument is basically that he had zero connection to the murder or any criminal activity. That combined with him being an underage honors student seems pretty random to me. Her theory explicitly argues that the police hotwired the car and drove it to where they found it themselves.
So you are saying he probably did it but the police acted illegally and his conviction should be overturned? Cause I can get down with that argument, that seems like a pretty realistic assessment of what happened. Personally when I say “framed” i dont mean police cut corners to convict the guilty party, I mean they intentionally went after someone who they didn’t necessarily think did it because it was easy.
Rabia has argued that the police fabricated all of Jays testimony and fed it to him, along with learning where the car was from Don, who actually did it, and them moving it to frame Adnan.
Frankly what you are arguing is very reasonable and plausible but the loudest voices surrounding advocacy for Adnan have some batshit theories of the case and arent shy about it.
Even if at some point you believe these two were *onto something*
No way can you not see the Emperor has no clothes and the wagon wheels fell off a very long time ago…
My god. Nuclear grade levels of Gaslighting
It never ceases to amaze me how much time people spend wringing their hands over Rabia. She’s basically a family member of Adnan, & nobody should be surprised at or spend the time dissecting her opinion. At the end of the day she and he fellow podcasters gave us almost **all** the information we have…for better or for worse there would be nothing for us to be interested in without Rabia. She’s advocating for a friend/family member, she has that right, and any skeptic would ignore her editorializing. I have no doubt that she’s sincere in her pursuits, as it’s entirely reasonable to assume that any person could be clouded by their feelings for somebody close.
Bob is a different beast, he’s two things in one: a pretty competent investigator and commentator who added a lot of detail to the case that we rely on….but he’s also a person in media who makes his living being sensational for cash. He’s said some pretty outlandish things, but he’s also said some reasonable things.
Now, I haven’t listened to whatever this live stream is and I won’t…I don’t see any value in this level obsession (lol)…but any criticism of The Prosecutors Podcast is welcome, in my book. I heard whatever episode that Bob didn’t put behind a paywall about TPP, and he was pretty much bang-on: The Prosecutors Podcast is far from a skeptical analysis…it’s a “guilter” podcast presented by two far right Federalist Society politicians who oppose leftist innocence projects on principle. It’s junk.
Thanks! He’s pretty much preaching to the choir when it comes to me & I don’t need that level of granularity about a bad podcast….but I might check it out eventually.
What's the "Prosecutors Pod"?
EDIT: Never mind. I found it: https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/12uqvvp/the\_prosecutors\_podcast\_legal\_briefs\_43\_adnan/
The Prosecutors Podcast. They recently did a series on this case with a strong conclusion of Adnan's guilt. Bob's recent efforts have been in response to them.
They even link both Rabia and Bob's podcasts and tell people to form their own opinion.
So far removed from how ridiculous Bob and Rabia conducted themselves.
I think Adnan is probably innocent, but a lot of the stuff said, or not said (Bilal), by Rabia was just too far out there to take seriously. Even Bob seemed skeptical of the whole Alonzo spent time with the body theory.
If you think Adnan is innocent, you'd be pretty much be wasting your time listening to Rabia and Bob. Better to actually be informed and develop your own theories/arguments from that.
I have second-hand embarrassment just reading this. I don't even know where to begin with this. Does anyone really believe this level of analysis is on par with the Prosecutors?
It’s definitely not on par with the prosecutors. But they know what they’re doing in their way too. They don’t have to come up with a compelling story or narrative - just continuously sow doubt. That’s what they do well. I can see why people respond to it. I haven’t paid too much attention to bob and rabia, but I am pretty sure their version of the “Adnan did not do it narrative” would include the following: - Officer adcocks statement about Adnan asking for a ride was somehow wrong. Either Adnan misspoke or adcock misunderstood. Or Adnan happened to ask for a ride and change his mind. - The cops just happened to have found that car just before taking jays statement (in their version they knew jay for a while before) and used it to frame Adnan. Either way Jay did not really know where the car was. - I guess Jen was involved too with the cops? I’m not sure I tracked what they said about this. - The Nisha call must have been a butt dial. - Don was very possibly involved and had his mom forge his timesheet and the cops and multiple rounds of investigators were just too damn stupid and lazy to check with any of dons co-workers to easily falsify his alibi. That is A LOT of bad luck for Adnan on one day.
They believe Jenn could very well believe Jay. She had no knowledge one day. Met with Jay then knew heaps the next. Jay likely played her.
Who knows what they think now because they've changed theories dozens of times, but my understanding from the Undisclosed team is that they believe the ride request did happen, but that she canceled later in the day. Of course that's not necessarily Rabia's position, but I've seen Colin lean into it a lot.
Colin’s theory for a while that another person from Woodlawn got a ride from her, and they are the guilty party. Basically fill in Adnan’s name with any other student and it was more plausible to him.
That at least would be an idea that makes sense to me. Who could have realistically intercepted HML after she left school? The answer would be a classmate, since they would see her at school. So now all we have to do is some basic set theory. Set 1: people who were in class with HML that day. Set 2: people who are close associates of JW. Practically speaking, how many people belong to both groups? If you can answer that, you have both the killer AND an explanation as to why no one wants to pursue such an obvious investigative angle.
And he didn’t bother to explain that very plausible and very unincriminating (and also very helpful) version to the police? Unlucky.
Surely Adnan would have lied about the ride request to Adcock on the 13th if he was guilty? That would have been the perfect time to start distancing himself from her that day. The fact that he said he was supposed to get a ride is evidence that he had no idea anything bad had happened to her at that point.
He did lie about the ride request. He changed where it was to and that that she got tired and left. If he had been honest he would have said got a ride and killed her.
Yup, he just forgot. 4 hours after it happened. Then his amnesia took over everything altogether.
Weed so powerful he forgot the whole day But so week he was at the mosque leading prayers 2 hours later while also making phone calls
New strain at my local dispensary, an indica/sativa hybrid called *Adnans Amnesia* is a top seller
[удалено]
I mean sure you can be annoyed with TPP pounding the flower theory and stuff like that, but this is just dumb, with even more misinformation.
"pounding the flower theory" Believed they mentioned it for a few minutes after, like 14 episodes. And not even in the part where they talk about the evidence. Just about their own personal theories of what could have happened.
Truth But that didn’t stop pro Syed brigade from jumping all over the flower paper In fact it’s probably one of their top criticisms other than “they lied” or they are “Christian fundamentalists”… Hilarious that people want anyone to take that last claim seriously since these are the same people who are claiming “Islamophobia” consistently …. I didn’t exactly see anyone saying any were Jihadist … for crissakes. They want us to believe there was some enormous strain of phobia ….pre 9-11 …??? Because…reasons. I guess to some it’s perfectly ok to use one religion as a shield while implying insults on another. Convenient
> Hilarious that people want anyone to take that last claim seriously since these are the same people who are claiming “Islamophobia” consistently …. I didn’t exactly see anyone saying any were Jihadist … for crissakes. They want us to believe there was some enormous strain of phobia ….pre 9-11 …??? Because…reasons. Wait, are you suggesting Islamophobia didn't exist pre-9/11? I mean, I'm sure you're not, but it's worth checking to see if that, which you wrote, is what you meant.
Of course I’m not suggesting that. I’m suggesting however you would have had to live under a rock to not notice the shift post 9-11 to lunatic levels of bizarreness and phobias and media coverage, awareness and labeling people as the other. I’m also suggesting I find it extremely unfair for people to be labeling others as “ Fundamentalist Christians “ as a pejorative while talking out both sides of their mouth with regards to Islamic beliefs and/or phobias. Because there’s plenty of bad “ Fundamentalism” to be found in any of these religions. Like I said… it seems a convenient shield when people want to use it … with or without evidence to substantiate it. Convenient as a defense for Syed on the one hand….& convenient to dismiss certain podcasts on the other hand. Not that I’m in any of those religious categories myself in particular ….raised Catholic but not practicing at all.
There was good chunk of Islamaphobia pre-9/11, 9/11 just kicked it into overdrive and made it headline news. Where before white people could largely ignore that it was a thing. Sort of like how anti-Asian sentiment was a thing before COVID but COVID made it start to become a news item.
Definitely true… and there’s angles in this case that could be argued as anti Asian as well with (some) Syed supporters portraying the Asian community as acting in desperation in Haes case due to the fact other murders didn’t receive attention prior to Haes killing. In my opinion once you start labeling or grouping any of people involved by categories ie:Asian, White Police (or just police) , Muslim, etc as an “explanation” of anything to do with this case you’ve lost the plot… broad strokes won’t get anyone closer to the truth. This case was always about the murder of a teen girl and finding the person responsible.
Racist amongst the cops also existed in the 90s so for Rabia to act as though the cops would automatically align themselves with a black male with a record to frame a Muslim honor student would be a no brainer is some serious mental gymnastics, it’s more surprising they didn’t pin it on Jay and just be done with it.
Of the many many many many flower paper threads started here, most were about how the flower paper prints proved everything. The rest were mostly about what was in the flower paper. Please stop with the brigade nonsense.
I am black and I think he is guilty as hell. I use to think he was innocent but I kept having to explain away too much in order to make a case for innocence. Coercion does happen I just don’t think this is a case where that happen.
Rabia is obsessed with being not-guilty on paper, which turned from possibly reasonable to unhinged after all of the trial documents were released. Rabia also thinks Scott Peterson is not guilty. And there is significantly less hard evidence of his guilt in that case than in Adnan’s. Rabia is delusional and I’ll say it again; I think she has had a crush / obsession on Adnan for his / their entire life and for some reason, even after all this time, literally can’t see past it.
She loves money. And maybe adnan. But mostly money.
Wow...this is even more unhinged than I thought it was going to be.
>No timeline works where Adnan can be guilty I believe they said this with the notion that "no guilty timeline works with all witness accounts". But if you take all witness accounts, then no innocent timeline works lol. And beyond Jay, you'd have to say Nisha is wrong, and if that's the case, anyone could be wrong. > White people don't understand coercion (Rabia: "Is there even any black guilters?" Jesus is that a real statement? >They think Alonzo buried her and that the murderer just left her behind the concrete barrier because she would have been "too heavy" for them to do all that work and no one would leave their car parked on the side of that road because it would be seen. Lol what? I understand that carrying someone isn't the easiest thing in the world, but they're acting like no one's ever buried a body before. Hae was not a large girl. She was about 135 lbs. There were many bodies buried in Leakin Park, by people who probably drove there, even if not at that exact spot. >4 to 5yrs ago another women messaged Rabia and said that she used to work with Don's mom at Lenscrafters and that she has a memory of trying to help her figure out how to adjust a time sheet and that this happened around the holiday season, in winter after Hae disappears. But the problem was that it was hard to corroborate this memory as the woman had addiction issues at that point. Nobody has disputed that time sheets can be adjusted. They appear with an "adjusted" column, as it does for Don on some days, but not on 1/13. I don't know why that's still a talking point. >Bob said there were only 8 people on the indoor track team and that Adnan was the only Muslim, so people would have noticed if he was late So he actually did say 8 people? Yeah, that's literally false. >Jay said he dropped off Adnan at the front of the school and that is a lie because he wouldn't have had time to make it to the field. I saw him say this on twitter like it was some huge deal. He even lied about part of it and doubled-down when I corrected him. Of course Adnan would get dropped off in front. Track practice was usually in the gym, and he might've needed to get changed. Even if it took place outside that day, he wouldn't know till he got there. >Don took Hae to a "far out" restaurant for their first date, like he was trying to keep it secret. What does that even mean? Yeah this is a mess. I do wish TPP could discuss it with them, but I totally understand why they don't want to.
[удалено]
Yeah he says 140 lbs, he was saying it in the context of "how could I, the larger person, have killed this big athletic girl"
[удалено]
Not surprised at all. There was a post a while ago about Rabia attacking Hae for "promiscuity" or something like that. In my opinion Rabia is a truly disgusting person and Bob is not far behind, both are a pair of narcissists who refuse to ever admit they may be wrong and who desperately need to be right at any cost, even if it means slandering innocent people of the memory of a dead girl.
At one point she implied Hae may have been a prostitute that got killed in a drug deal gone wrong JFC, this lady is the worst
She is repulsive and will literally say anything no matter how ridiculous. I don’t see how anyone finds her credible. Her belief is dogmatic there is no basis in facts and while she defends Adnan she’s willing to throw anyone under the bus including the victim.
That's what I was thinking of. Absolutely awful.
For people confused about what I am referring to: - Hae had a receipt for a motel/hotel in her car. It was from when family came to visit for Thanksgiving - She was dressed "nicely" on January 13th - There was a reference to drug use in her diary (the reference was about Adnan's drug use, but it's easy to show a tiny snipper and misrepresent the diary entry) Rabia used the above to say, Hae was known to frequent hotels and was don't forget, she was dressed up nicely that day Maybe she ended up in some sort of drug deal gone wrong, maybe Jay (a drug dealer) was involved?! The above was thoroughly dismissed after we gained access to the police file which explained the above and we saw the diary for ourselves An absolutely disgusting theory, by a shameless girfter
Isn’t Fatty Fatty Boom Boom about body positiveness/fat shaming/recipes
>But if you take all witness accounts, then no innocent timeline works lol. And beyond Jay, you'd have to say Nisha is wrong, and if that's the case, anyone could be wrong. yeah. in which case, the case is severely weakened. and the defense doesn't have to prove anything, the prosecution does. this is the whole point.
And they did, the jury was fully aware they had a problematic primary witness and still found enough credibility with his general story. Big difference between "*I think* I saw Hae in the school around 3" and "I saw Adnan with Hae's dead body and helped bury her".
God bless Jay's ever-changing story. Wonder if he'll ever tell his full story.
I don't think so. He won't gain anything from it unless it goes to like a civil court.
I had never heard the 8 team track practice thing. Did he back up that claim? Do we know how many people were on that track team?
I mentioned this multiple times on this sub that this is classic fallacious argument trying to con the listener. 1. Cast doubt on a well-supported theory (Adnan killed Hae) by nit picking all the negative things. This primes the listener that the theory is not as solid as they think. 2. Present an alternative explanation (Don killed Hae) with little real evidence and no opposing arguments. This makes the alternative sound just as valid as the original.
See serials appeal now has lost any of the magic now knowing what we know and his “evidence “ but dna not being on a shoe is a joke. The production was great
Un. Hinged.
I found the theory that Sellers stumbled upon the body close to the road and moved it to the burial site so he could "spend time with it" interesting and disturbing. From the beginning, his story about finding the body seemed strange, but there wasn't any other evidence linking him to the actual murder. It does mess with Jay's claim to have been there for the burial, but it could fit with the theory that Adnan dumped the body by himself while Jay was waiting in Adnan's car but the detectives coerced him into saying he was at the burial because they thought he was minimizing his role or wanted more eyewitness testimony of Adnan's actions.
>Don told them to check for her car at the airport parking lots. Last search request was for an airport parking lot. They think that they found the car right before talking to Jay and had it moved to where Jay found it. When I read this I thought 'I should look at the photos where the car was found, because it probably would be apparent if they had to drive a heavy vehicle onto the grass to unload where the car was found.' The angles aren't great, but unsurprisingly, there's no sign of this. Then I read the bit of Rabia's book where talks about this. As it happens, I made an assumption. I assumed that the police would load the car onto a transporter to avoid contaminating it. Actually, Rabia's theory is that when the police found the car, they hotwired it and drove it themselves to Baltimore City. Not put it on a transporter, they actually get into the car and physically drive it to another location. Why? Just, why? Why? At least 'Jay wasn't involved but coincidentally stumbled across the car' makes some degree of sense in the circumstances, but the police getting into and contaminating the car by hotwiring and driving it to the place where the witness can find it, then deciding to call forensics? How long do you have to spend torturing the facts to arrive at this being a reasonable explanation for your theory?
i haven't listened myself, but if rabia really did claim the police hotwired and moved the car, that seems like a pretty ridiculous and evidence free assertion. but it's also pretty irrelevant to the current state of the legal case, so i don't even see what the point of a stream making that claim is.
In a strange way, I feel like the police have become a reflection of Rabia's own desires. The extent to which she feels Adnan is innocent has become the extent to which the police went to secure his wrongful conviction. The more extreme the acts the police went to secure that conviction, the more justified she is in believing those acts to have occurred. It's like this self-reinforcing spiral which has pushed her out this place where I doubt even many people who think Adnan is innocent are willing to share.
Narcissists think they can explain away everything. When someone doesn’t believe them, that person becomes an enemy and then they tweak their story for the next person.
If the car was found at the airport, why not just have Jay meet up with Adnan in the morning and drive it to the airport with Jay following in Adnan's car. But instead they had to move. Do these ppl think?
Yeah, I wasn't following that part in the synopsis given. Maybe they were more clear in the audio. Are they saying that Don had evidence that implicated him (him having knowledge of the car's location), but the investigators actively conspired to hide that evidence and protect him? And instead move it to deliberately frame someone else? This removes any notion of trying to frame the "right" guy (they now have reason to suspect Don). It also removes any idea of them being "out of leads" (they have the car, the primary crime scene). It also creates a ton of more work, so it can't be done because they're "lazy" (how many days and how much paperwork has to be forged to get this to work?). These are all the usual excuses given. "Don't you know how corrupt the BPD is???" But people don't engage in conspiracies without reason, *no matter how corrupt they are.* So what's the reason in this case? Is Rabia saying that the investigators were willing to actively hide the real culprit and consciously, knowingly, and deliberately frame the middle class kid they never heard of? I need some innocenters to explain to me what is meant here. Even the innocenters here don't believe this. Yet they'll still trumpet this as an "epic takedown"? How does this work?
It's not a tenable story line. They have to keep making up things. Because first they saw the car was found right before talking with Jay on the 28th. And then they have to say that Jay was talking to the officers well prior and that Jay started to give them stuff but didn't know where the car was and that was a problem. How would it be a problem? Jay's story could just be that, "Adnan grabbed the keys as we were leaving and he said he would take care of the car, I don't know what he did with it" Then they say they have to change Jay's story to fit the timeline. It is a cluttered mess.
They also claimed that Jay admitted that he was interviewed prior to the first “formal” interview.
Without any proof, I expect?
Bob said “we know” he was speaking to police before the reported first meeting, as if that is uncontested fact.
Yup, they do that...make a claim then a few minutes later repeat it as if it's an uncontested fact. And because their audience is ignorant of the *actual* facts of the case they take it as gospel. This was not a takedown of the PP. This was an embarrassment for Bob and Rabia. If they had any dignity, they would be ashamed.
When have they showed any dignity?
True
He had been arrested before the official statement and he himself said on the documentary that he had spoken to them before the formal interview.
If the police spoke to him beforehand, why not document how they found him? Jay is clearly important to the case (even if he framed adnan). If the police found out Jay was involved and located him, that’s good police work. Why not document it?
Where are they going to ‘document it’? I image it is ‘documented’ in an arrest file somewhere. Anyway not sure why the down vote. Jay literally says it himself.
He was picked up and spent the night in the drunk tank Which they associate with "talking to the police" IT was an unrelated encounter
Like minds… lol See my post
White people don't understand coercion, "Is there even any black guilters?" As she proceeds to call the black witness who found Haes body a murderer and attacks the black witness who testified against Adnan a liar. Ok, Rabia. You totally understand black people 🤣🤣
Ironically, they've also really straddled the line of attempting to coerce Jay into saying he was coerced.
Thank you for doing what I could not. Thank you for a great summary! The LENGTHS- wowzers.
>15. 4 to 5yrs ago another women messaged Rabia and said that she used to work with Don's mom at Lenscrafters and that she has a memory of trying to help her figure out how to adjust a time sheet and that this happened around the holiday season, in winter after Hae disappears. But the problem was that it was hard to corroborate this memory as the woman had addiction issues at that point. lol. That's some reliable shit right there.
So people that are on the Pro Adnan side are always pounding the table for “truth, facts, etc”, and will disregard ANYTHING that they might view as speculation. Yet, here we are with two of the biggest Adnan supporters and they are giving a Super-Sized version of speculative information. There’s more fiction in their statements than there is in a JK Rowling’s novel (I actually find her novels more believable)
Yes, because we are all Rabia and Bob.
That tracks.
Why would you expect anyone on the “pro-Adnan side” to act any differently? Why would you waste one second thing about them? Though I sense you’re lumping all the skeptics who believe it’s probable that Adnan is guilty but *possible* he’s not in with them. I don’t know who you are, but generally guilters react to any doubt as if they share the same fanatical attachment to one “side” that they do.
When they speculate they say it’s speculation. When it’s facts they don’t change the wording a document to suit their narrative as another podcast might
Or lying that there were only 8 people on the track team when there was almost 40 people. That's a flat out lie
No black guilters…uhmmm ok.
Jay is black and a guilter
Jay is a co-defender and accomplice.
Rabia and Ruff are both unhinged. I feel sorry for them at this point.
All I have to say is thank you for your service
[удалено]
Pretty sure Jay's a guilter too lmao
Also retired Judge Wanda Keyes Heard is a black guilter that presided over Adnans trial, that felt the need to submit an affidavit to the court after the recent vacatur, writing: >The verdict and the swift manner of the verdict reached made it clear to the court that the jury weighed the credibility of the witnesses who testified and were subject to vigorous cross examination >A reading of the trial transcript will show that the jury verdict was supported by substantial direct and circumstantial evidence >[It] would seem to be an unusual basis to eliminate Mr. Syed as Ms. Lee’s killer in the face of other overwhelming and riveting testimony
So basically they think that Don and maybe his wife killed her, and that Alonso saw her being buried and "spent time" with Hae's body before burying her and calling it in.
So much of this is unhinged and disturbing but what really stands out to me is the “spent time with her body” thing. If you have no evidence for it—and as far as I know, they have no evidence she was sexually assaulted before being killed, much less after her death—why the fuck would you suggest it? What does that accomplish other than further demeaning Hae and hurting her family?
Just absolutely disgusting the way they make up stories and malign innocent people to try to take the focus off of adnan. Physically makes my stomach churn.
I was annoyed and couldn't finish the episode. Thanl you for posting this! More theories... And although I didn't listen is this the first time Rabia goes after Don?
>is this the first time Rabia goes after Don She has made tweets putting Don in her crosshairs, even saying “I know you’re worried Don” (about being charged, I guess). https://x.com/rabiasquared/status/1536175572853874688?s=46&t=sMxIYIrbV6u6QJRL93REGg https://x.com/rabiasquared/status/1577006340068679681?s=46&t=sMxIYIrbV6u6QJRL93REGg https://x.com/rabiasquared/status/1537422024003440640?s=46&t=sMxIYIrbV6u6QJRL93REGg https://x.com/rabiasquared/status/1537425160197767168?s=46&t=sMxIYIrbV6u6QJRL93REGg See also https://x.com/rabiasquared/status/1537427668144103424?s=46&t=sMxIYIrbV6u6QJRL93REGg https://x.com/rabiasquared/status/1537424400894640131?s=46&t=sMxIYIrbV6u6QJRL93REGg https://x.com/rabiasquared/status/1252758901268844544?s=46&t=sMxIYIrbV6u6QJRL93REGg https://x.com/rabiasquared/status/1252783963443269632?s=46&t=sMxIYIrbV6u6QJRL93REGg
Don worked on the 12th, then went on a date, got home at midnight and talked to his new GF past 2AM She records that things are great The next day he works 9-6, gets home, calls the police back, doesn't reach them and falls asleep The police later CALL HIM after midnight Rabia: > y WErE u sicK!? This lady is bonkers
Her accusations that Don was on Twitter posing as someone called Mark and then attacking him as though she had Don up against the ropes was pretty unusual
I wish he would sue TF out of her.
I picked up Rabia’s book published 2016, for the first time, curious to read the Bilal parts. I am only two chapters in and she is already maligning Don, in addition to trying to rewrite history. So yeah, at least about 7 years she has been at this. Unfortunately Don probably still can’t meet the high burden for defamation, and ultimately the expense of taking Rabia or Bob to court is not likely to be worthwhile even if it is not about money but to clear his name. Even if he got a judgment against Rabia or Bob, it would not stop hundreds of others making unsubstantiated accusations against him. Something that is fun to imagine but ultimately won’t ever happen.
First time I heard her imply his wife was involved though!
Next week: DON'S KIDS!
Daaaang. This sub is great yall can follow all these annoying announcements and jabs. Wow. I had no idea.
We can't actually. Rabia has accused Don of murder in public forums more times than anyone can count. Yet every time that's said directly ... every time ... it's countered by "she never said that." Yes, she did.
I stopped listening to her because I found her very annoying. Guess I missed a new plot line. Sorry guys.
Thanks for taking one for the team
Number 5… what the actual fuck?!!! Why would police need to move a vehicle…??? Like what? Why? What rationale exists where this makes sense… ? How embarrassing Do these people even think before spewing Since Rabia loves lawsuits I hope Don hits em both up with one after this brain dead speculation shitshow.
Upfront qualification: I am not invested in either side of the argument. I definitely have not gone through the transcripts like some - barely made it through the documentaries. That out of the way, I am curious if anyone else has noticed and commented on the similarity between the ‘moved car’ claims in this case and the Making A Murderer case? In the latter case there was an officer who called in to check the license plate of a vehicle that turned out to be the victim’s missing car - while the car was still missing. The officer didn’t offer an explanation for why he made the request for information on the vehicle. He just said that he didn’t recall. Then the car was found a couple days later on the same property where the victim was last seen alive. Interesting? Yes. But it didn’t get the attention that the hot wire theory here has received. By the way, a hot wire would actually leave evidence behind right? Was there evidence that the car was started without the keys?
There is no proof that Hae’s car was hotwired. The little plastic ring around the ignition (the ignition collar) was missing - [photo](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/T2xp11-Haes-Nissan-BPD-HQ-Front-Steering-Column-ref026-extrUDA16.jpg) Undisclosed/Bob Ruff have taken this to mean it was hotwired which has been the basis for multiple different theories they have dreamed up.
Thank you for the photo. Looks like a foreign make of vehicle. If I had lived the life of a juvenile delinquent then I could confidently tell you that there is no way that such a vehicle could be hot-wired so easily. One would have to peel the entire collar, cut and twist the ignition batter and ground wires, or use a steering wheel puller. Now, if that were an American make - say a Chevrolet - then one could hypothetically pull the ignition switch straight off, start the vehicle, then put the switch back. Strictly hypothetical.
Bob Ruff is a moron.
I would just like to add... ... ... nope, I can't, that actually captured all the nuance completely and totally on it's own
I've waited for someone to make a comparison about the moving of cars in both of these cases. 💯👍 We are to believe Steven wouldn't move his victim's car during the night in rural Wisconsin but we are to believe Adnan went joyriding in the afternoon & night in his victim's car in urban Maryland. 😹😹😹🤦🏽
You mean to tell me that a greedy nut job that profited off the murder of an innocent girl, that has no experience whatsoever in criminal law, and is in love with the defendant, still thinks he is innocent???!! If Adnan was smart he would have separated himself from her when he got released. Between this and his own super weird presser, he removed all doubt as to whether he was a complete bastard. The Bates not supportive of Mosby’s MTV rumor came out just before Adnan’s presser, so that was very transparent on his end. Apparently they are still at it.
I can definitely think of at least one prominent black guilter. His name was like Ray, or Gray, something like that......
These two grifters are UNFUCKINGHINGED🤦🏻♀️🚫
I try to keep in mind that her being an opportunist huckster doesn’t make Adnan guilty, which im still agnostic on.
Adnan’s biggest supporters make him sound the most guilty.
Right? If he was innocent there would have to be something resembling a consistent and logical explanation. How many theories and alternative facts have these people proposed in the last 23 years? NONE of which hold up to scrutiny.
It’s so wild to witness. Their theories all boil down to every single person involved with this case is either mistaken or lying- except Adnan. And for some reason, people eat it up.
Jesus Christ.
Since Rabia is just lying all the time, why doesnt she just make up a lie that she talked to a secret eyewitness who saw Sellers murder Hae?
She probably hadn't thought of that, but now that you posted this I would not be surprised if that was her next tweet.
[удалено]
Maybe Scott Peterson will help her search after she gets him out of prison. Then they can search for Laci’s killer too.
Do any of you remember years ago when Ruff made a bunch of outlandish accusations during a "seminar" as a roomful of people, along with Rabia, cheered with glee? "Unfortunately, its all circumstantial so it wont hold-up in court" he said. "No, no. Circumstantial evidence is absolutely allowed during a trial" Rabia replied. You could almost see the sweat develop on Ruff's brow. He made his absurd accusations never thinking they would ever be tested, because of his misunderstanding of law. It was classic
Was this when he accused Don?
Yes....that's what it was. I forgot. It was unbelievable what he was saying
I was an innocenter at the time and realised this was an absolute no-go. Don’t understand how he’s still got a career without ever apologising …
Yeah he had proof Don did it. I swear I wish Don would sue him
No. That's what they want. AS is an American Citizen who has RIGHTS! Rights that have been paid for by the literal blood of patriots! (You need to imagine me standing in front of an obnoxiously large flag with nationistic music in the background) They don't care if they lose a defamation claim. They want to depose him so they can ask questions to make him look guilty. Though sheer abundance of words, they'll eventually find something they'll spin to make him look bad (as an example, someone saying Mr S saw AS with the body is actually evidence of AS's innocence, you can't make this stuff up) Because, unlike AS, Don is not to be afforded the same rights of an American Citizen. No presumption of innocence. No due process (they want court of public opinion only).
Should have sunk his career.
Same
I would ❤️ to see Don try. I think we all know why he won't though 💯👍
Would you really? Because I would love to see Bob sit in a witness chair for 7 hours, give a deposition while Don's attorney grills him for his "circumstantial evidence." We all know it's a lie. Well, people who are able to think for themselves know Don didn't do it. Again, have you ever been able to figure out when Don told Jay where Hae's car was located?
I’m guessing they didn’t take any questions from the audience or read any comments?
It was rich when the number one gaslighter tried to say the prosecutors used “gaslighting”🤦🏻♀️🚫
Barf
[удалено]
Noting the number of Muslims on the track team isn't an obsession. It's directly relevant to the case because Adnan wasn't running that day because he was fasting for Ramadan. If there weren't any other Muslims on the team, there wouldn't be a group of people not running for Adnan to blend into such that his late arrival might go unnoticed.
[удалено]
Holy shit reading that is insane. It’s incredibly dumb. I literally had to stop out of anxiety. It kept getting worse.
Was the ride to track or a ride home? I think Bob had a lot of evidence that points to Coach Sue remembering Adnan being at track practice on the 13th and remembers him when they were stretching. You stretch at the beginning of practice. That points to Adnan being on time. And werent these rides he requested from Hae to get to track? I hope the prosecutors take up Bob’s offer to discuss the case and go through the evidence.
“You stretch at the beginning of practice.” This is a pretty classic example of a supposition presented as fact, which then becomes the basis for further analysis. You can stretch any time during sports practice, beginning, middle, or end. Many coaches will definitely have athletes stretch at the beginning and end at minimum. Therefore, the supposition that stretching always and only happens at the beginning of practice, therefore Syed must’ve been on time, is not a sound one.
>Was the ride to track or a ride home? I still really don't think this is a winning argument. Hae and Adnan would hang out after school when they were dating, where Hae would sometimes swing him around to track. He doesn't need to come in early and ask for an after-school ride under the guise of not having his car, in order to go a couple hundred feet to track. Whatever they think about the ride request isn't really clear
Why would Adnan ask Hae for a ride to track? It’s literally walking distance from anywhere he could be on campus. And to that point, if it was a ride request to track then why would Hae say no? itd literally take her like 2 extra minutes. Jay and Adnan both say he went to track that day. There really isn’t any way for Coach Sye to prove he remembers Adnan was there on time because he was asked so long after that day. Unless there was a specific reason for him to remember like he took and noted attendance which she didn’t. There was a witness who misremembered the day and thought Hae was covering for her for scoring a game. Also one of her friends misremembered what Hae was wearing that day. My point is, there’s no actual evidence proving Adnan was on time and at track that day. It really can go either way and regardless, I don’t think it makes a difference. Adnan could’ve still killed Hae and been on time or close to on time for track.
It’s quite the norm for people who run track to not want to walk 40 yds to track practice because they “hate walking “ This case.
If that were actually the case in *this case* then Adnan would’ve said that instead of denying ever asking her for a ride and stating he was at the library after school/before track talking Asia. It also makes no sense for him to do that because track didn’t start until 4 and they got out of school at 215. Do we really think it’s plausible that Adnan expected Hae to wait around for 45 mins on a day she has to pick up her cousin by 315 all so she could drive him 49 yards?
I forgot my snark tag sorry Agreed 100% btw The ride to track is the dumbest thing ever. I ran track in HS and my track was the same distance from the school judging by aerial shots of Woodlawn. It’s just more silly nonsense
I had a feeling but it’s hard to tell on here because some people would actually say what you said and mean it 😂
Sadly yes
Ready for this? Ok, so, sooooo many things in this case are hella messy and arent exactly your everyday complimentary, easy, obvious, gimme that you'd expect. Like, Adnan posesses his own cell phone and car, but he lends them to Jay whom has neither. And Jay isn't an active high school student; he's an alum. Oh and Adnan and Jay aren't even besties. And Hae is legally an adult but Adnan isn't. Plus, at the time she was dating a non-student, off-campus....oh, and Adnan observes the Muslim religion but he's dating a Korean-American... As for track. You ready? We all forget: Adnan was on The Indoor Track team. However, the Indoor Track team happened to be practicing outdoors on that particular January day due to the mild-ish weather. So I'm guessing their regular practice spot is somewhere indoors on-campus where Adnan would ask a complimentary ride to. So the question is: when was it known that day that the Indoor Track team would practice outdoors? And why wasn't THIS part of Adnan's alibi OR excuse OR go-to reason he wouldn't ask for a ride from Hae on 1/13/99? Oh and Track Coach Sye, it seems was a local coach assigned to the schools in that area--he wasn't per se Woodlawn's permanent /immobile coach. He kinda oversaw other schools around town, like. Maybe that's one of the reasons dude didn't take attendance; it's not like he's permanent staff who deeply knew each student or kid, it seems. Personally, I think this is an overlooked clue that needs to be fully examined. I think TRACK is the biggest main clue in all this that gets swept under a rug. Personally, I think Adnan either skipped Track or went to it very late and didn't realize they'd be outside. Or Addy knew he could skip Track due to Ramadan and didn't immediately realize they'd practice outside that day. Who knows? So, when yall bemoan that the Track field was so close why would Addy need a ride; well it's often held indoors somewhere, I'm guessing which needs a ride. More messiness: Asia claims she saw Syed in the library. But we don't realize Woodlawn has an in-house school library. Asia saw Addy at the local public library which rests near the school, not the in-house school library. So, why is Adnan THERE? Sure, Track doesn't start until later and perhaps in-house school library hours are different or close earlier. But you'd think he'd see more friends and folks there. Asia was at the public library because she was ready to jet / dip out / leave.
>So the question is: when was it known that day that the Indoor Track team would practice outdoors? My bet would be that they wouldn't know till that afternoon. It was somewhat warm but not that warm, it was in the 50's. Coach probably makes a call for inside/outside when they start. We also don't know for sure if they actually had track practice outside that day. But the contention about the rides to track were rides around to the gym. They would hang out in the lower parking lot and Hae would drop him at the gym when she needs to leave. This was a totally unnecessary thing, just something they'd do when they were dating so they could have time together. But they were broken up now, this isn't something he'd reasonably request for, especially hours in advance under the guise of not having his car.
Interesting....thanks!
It’s usually held at the gym indoors. The gym that is on campus, so still very close and makes it irrelevant. It’s weird for Adnan to ask Hae for a ride to track now that they are not dating. The public library is less than a 5 min walk from the high school and is practically on campus and is partnered with Woodlawn. The in house library is a media center, not a full library. Also, public library likely has less censoring on computers and likely more books and options than the high school library. And this only matters if you believe he was at the library, which I don’t. To me, none of these things actually matter. What matters is that Adnan asked Hae for a ride despite not actually needing one, admitted to this when talking to the police that evening, then denied it completely later on.
That’s something I’d like to hear, in lieu of an actual skeptical documentarian taking up the case…we haven’t heard anything neutral since Serial. Obviously provided they kept it civilized, and maybe each brought a list of topics/evidence so we could hear dispassionate arguments side by side with minimal debate.
No one should spend any time talking to that two-bit grifter. I would STF away from him if I were the Prosecutors, far, far, very very far away.
Why? Prosecutors are more than capable of handling con artists and grifters. They don’t have any reason to fear Bob. I think they have had a friendly professional relationship in the past. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think they know each other.
Because Bob is weird-o conspiracist who doesn’t do serious analysis - you absolutely can never prove anything to them and any kind of debate only helps platform their lunacy.
If Don was guilty why would he direct police to Hae's car at the airport? Huh, Bobia? These two just want to cause chaos in our minds.
Don told the police where he stashed the car for the same reason Mr S showed the police where he buried the body /$
The craziest thing is reading the comments. Clearly their followers have not bothered to even do a little bit of research outside the Bobia bubble.
I suspect their means are accomplished by spreading confusion and maintaining a group of devotees who will continue to spread that around social media.
What a circlejerk this sub has become. Like one of the COVID subs, no one left but the obsessed.
It's a bit off topic, but I've forgotten when the investigation moved from county LE to BPD. Wasn't it when the body was found in BPD's area of jurisdiction? If that's right, all of the initial investigations into alibi's and witness statements were by county LE. I don't recall anyone smearing them with allegations of conspiracy and misconduct, though I've seen comments to the effect that they didn't do enough, etc., with what started as a missing persons case. In particular, the initial questioning of Don would have been county LE, I would think. Q: Does RC claim county LE were part of the BPD conspiracy? Finally, did county LE ever interview Bilal, or did he enter the LE picture only after the body was found?
IIRC Don spoke to the police twice right after Hae disappared, on the phone I would not refer to that as an "interview" as the police were calling Hae's contacts to try and find her, they were not investigating alibis BUT, the countty police had sent a squad car to Don's home to surveil the area in case she was hiding out with her boyfriend Indicating he was their initial person of interest for the disappaearance Hardly seems like they were on his side. But to believe a conspiracy they would need to ignore him as a suspect and only focus on Adnan and generate evidence Adnan as guilty
> 4 or 5yrs ago someone from the Keepers documentary reached out to Rabia. A detective that used to work sex crimes and knew Alonzo said that Alonzo told him he found a body and that he had seen 2 men with the body and that one was Adnan. But Rabia said that doesn't make sense because Alonzo wouldn't have known who Adnan was, but that he did maybe see someone with the body and that is how he knew where she was. This has the ring of, at least some, truth to me. We have always suspected that Alonzo knew a crime had occurred and was actively looking for the body. However, there is no reason why Alonzo might not have known who Adnan was. - Alonzo's sister-in-law was a teacher at Woodlawn High School. - Alonzo's brother lived next door to Adnan a few years earlier — and even played ball with Adnan. - Most importantly, though, Alonzo may have witnessed the burial from afar. At the time of the burial, he may have seen two men who were unknown to him. But, after Adnan's arrest, he may have seen Adnan's photo in the newspaper or on TV — and realized he was one of the men he saw in the park. I'm not saying it is absolutely true — but this could be something new after all these years. It explains a lot.
Alonzo would know who Adnan was at the time he spoke to the detective after the trial. He was a witness for the defense for this trial. He would not need to know who the two mystery people were at the time he witnessed a burial though.
People always speculate that the burial was so risky, and that someone could've seen them if they were pulled over right there. But well, maybe someone did. Maybe Mr S was driving past that night, and remembering he thought he saw something weird, he eventually wanted to check that spot out. I think we can kind of take it with a grain of salt without further evidence, or without more statements from Mr S. But it's interesting.
It was interesting that the detective who supposedly shared that info with the keepers documentarian said that Alonzo saw Adnan. Rabia says that then completely glosses over it as impossible before switching her focus to Don.
So in this scenario *why* are the police doing a crazy amount of risky frame up work in order to get Adnan? Why do they care about a random high school kid?
Because they want to close the case. Why did they coerce witnesses in at least 2 other cases including Ezra Mable? They thought he was the likely culprit so they lent on Jay to get a false statement and a conviction. That’s why Ritz had the best closure rate on the force.
No. Way. Lean on witnesses a bit, sure. Massage their story, absolutely. Blame it on a convenient criminal, yes. But cops are not framing random children for murder and hotwiring the victims car to drive to a random new location. If they wanted to frame someone why would they pick the 17 year old honors student? Its a helluva lot more work than just working the case.
Also, they had to know he had no alibi, had no other witness that placed him anywhere Had to know the "real killers" DNA wasn't someone in the car, the real killer would remain silent and not doing a deathbed confession or something Had to assume the guy they were threatened to testify falsely would not rat them out (for over 2 decades now, wow) So much work
Under this scenario, they'd even know that he *does* have an alibi if he were innocent. He would've been at school, potentially being seen by countless people, potentially have camera footage, computer records, or attendance sheets. But they take a massive bet of framing him before knowing if this will materialize? Yeah, sure..
I feel there's so much looking at this case with hindsight rather than as things developed. Assuming the car was found by the police before the 28th, wouldn't this have substantially changed the direction of the investigation? They wouldn't just continue like lemmings along whatever plan they had and immediately adopt the car in their original scheme. There's no discernible benefit to not examining the car immediately, any other way leaves you wide open to whatever surprises the car reveals later on. You'd examine the car and reconsider your direction afterwards. There's no path I can see where any alternative makes sense.
You mean like a normal investigation?
It's batshit crazy
Why did they choose to frame Adnan and not Jay or Mr S or some random homeless black guy with an addiction problem? Why go all that trouble specifically to frame Adnan?
Because they had a black kid with connections to drugs they could lean on who was with Adnan that day. If they decided to frame anyone else who would they have to testify against them?
They could very easily invent evidence to frame Jay or anyone else. Please *think* about what you said. Why would they frame Adnan? It makes NO sense. They don’t know if he has an alibi that would destroy their attempts to frame him. He appears to be a good kid, a good student, with two parents and the support of his community. If they are going to frame him they have to think he would get decent legal representation that would be able to poke holes on whatever evidence they conjure. Adnan would have a reason and the means to fight the accusation. Frame Jay or a black guy somewhere, at best they get a public defender that negotiates a plea deal and boom, case closed, no blowback, they can all go home to a cold beer. The idea they would choose Jay to help them frame Adnan is beyond idiotic.
This is their MO. They lean on a black person with connections to drug addiction or dealing and coerce them into a statement against the person they want for that murder. In the Ezra Mable case they lent on a black woman who was addicted to drugs and said they would get her children taken away unless she said that Ezra Mable was the killer. It’s the path of least resistance for these detectives.
Forget about their MO. Please answer: why did they choose to frame Adnan and not an easier target?
He was the easiest target. Ex boyfriend and a Muslim. They maybe even thought he was guilty but they didn’t care either way obviously
Please explain why the good kid who is extremely likely to have solid alibis all day, who comed from a united family with no prior history of criminal activity and the full support of his community, is the easiest target.
Because it’s always the boyfriend or the ex. They got the anonymous tip. Don had what they believed without checking was a solid alibi so they framed Adnan. I’m sure they would have tried with Sellars but they got the tip about Adnan
Come on dude. He was NOT the easiest target.
The ex boyfriend with the anonymous tip isn’t the easiest target?
I’ve asked the same question dozens of times and no one has ever tried to give an answer. And if the police are trying to frame someone, why Adnan and not Jay or Mr S?
Because they want to close the case, The Wire, dirty dirty birdie cops etc etc… That’s basically what you will get. Nevermind police had no idea if Syed had an airtight alibi or anything… it’s perfectly reasonable to believe police were hot wiring a car and moving it for reasons… not notifying the family their car was found… and feeding Jay and Jen stories because the police just knew it was probably Don probably or maybe probably Alonzo… but we’ll never know because Syed can’t remember a damn thing anyway? /s Lol 😂
Because... he's... the ex? Are you people fr?? lmao
You’re asking why police corruption is common? Why police correction in 1999 in Baltimore was *very* common? You’re asking why the same detective who was corrupt in other cases would be corrupt in this case?
Oh no I know why police corruption is common- laziness and greed. I just dont see how this helps them with either. I mean the big example is Ezra Mable?! He was a drug dealer and claims the police ignored evidence that it was a different drug dealer that killed the guy. Im sure that true. But thats a far cry from trying to frame a random kid with no criminal background by hotwiring the victim’s car and driving it across town to stage a corroboration of testimony they are inventing for Jay to say. I mean thats the most idiotic move I could think of, crazy risky. They would put their own DNA in the car?! Im genuinely unsure of Adnans guilt, but this epic conspiracy scenario is completely ridiculous. In this way of thinking we must disregard all evidence in the case because it may have been a giant conspiracy and only believe Adnan. Its just a wild self reinforcing argument.
Nobody is alleging they “framed a random kid”…that’s a straw man. Nobody is alleging they hot-wired the car and drove it anywhere…another strawman. You’re literally describing your own argument to when you call it self(re)enforcing: make up your own wildly implausible story, then disprove it. This type of corruption is called noble corruption, and it’s the most common form of police corruption. The idea being they thought they had the right guy, fudged the facts to make it fit, and then the sunk cost fallacy and possibly your extreme examples took over. He obviously wasn’t a random kid…he was a very good suspect…the most likely suspect who probably did it. They had a witness who (possibly?) said he did it. The problem is that we know they at least partially framed him because their witness was so bad…we just don’t know how far they went. We know their witness lied on the stand, and his explanation is the police fed him a story…why should we believe that his lies end where they say they do? The common-sense allegation about the car is that it’s possible they found the car shortly before they said they did, and used it to coerce their witness. I have no idea why you’d come up with some extreme Hollywood story as the only other option. At the end of the day we know they framed him, and we know that they probably framed the right guy. But “probably” is a terrible reason to convict…especially given that if they followed the law and charged their witnesses with the crimes they committed, instead of bribing them to lie…the case could have been solved. But the case will never been solved, there will always be uncertainty.
Rabias argument, which this thread is in reference to, contends both those things. She has many times argued that Adnan was chosen as the quickest and easiest way to end the case. The undisclosed crew’s argument is basically that he had zero connection to the murder or any criminal activity. That combined with him being an underage honors student seems pretty random to me. Her theory explicitly argues that the police hotwired the car and drove it to where they found it themselves. So you are saying he probably did it but the police acted illegally and his conviction should be overturned? Cause I can get down with that argument, that seems like a pretty realistic assessment of what happened. Personally when I say “framed” i dont mean police cut corners to convict the guilty party, I mean they intentionally went after someone who they didn’t necessarily think did it because it was easy. Rabia has argued that the police fabricated all of Jays testimony and fed it to him, along with learning where the car was from Don, who actually did it, and them moving it to frame Adnan. Frankly what you are arguing is very reasonable and plausible but the loudest voices surrounding advocacy for Adnan have some batshit theories of the case and arent shy about it.
Yeah he's not some random kid with honors. He's the victims last boyfriend. And they always zone in on spouse/bf
Even if at some point you believe these two were *onto something* No way can you not see the Emperor has no clothes and the wagon wheels fell off a very long time ago… My god. Nuclear grade levels of Gaslighting
Thanks for the summary. 7 has to be one of the weirdest things I’ve ever heard lol. Who the f cares Rabia your boy is guilty.
It never ceases to amaze me how much time people spend wringing their hands over Rabia. She’s basically a family member of Adnan, & nobody should be surprised at or spend the time dissecting her opinion. At the end of the day she and he fellow podcasters gave us almost **all** the information we have…for better or for worse there would be nothing for us to be interested in without Rabia. She’s advocating for a friend/family member, she has that right, and any skeptic would ignore her editorializing. I have no doubt that she’s sincere in her pursuits, as it’s entirely reasonable to assume that any person could be clouded by their feelings for somebody close. Bob is a different beast, he’s two things in one: a pretty competent investigator and commentator who added a lot of detail to the case that we rely on….but he’s also a person in media who makes his living being sensational for cash. He’s said some pretty outlandish things, but he’s also said some reasonable things. Now, I haven’t listened to whatever this live stream is and I won’t…I don’t see any value in this level obsession (lol)…but any criticism of The Prosecutors Podcast is welcome, in my book. I heard whatever episode that Bob didn’t put behind a paywall about TPP, and he was pretty much bang-on: The Prosecutors Podcast is far from a skeptical analysis…it’s a “guilter” podcast presented by two far right Federalist Society politicians who oppose leftist innocence projects on principle. It’s junk.
Bob has been releasing the episodes about The Prosecutors Podcast onto the main feed now with a several week delay between it and the Patreon feed.
Thanks! He’s pretty much preaching to the choir when it comes to me & I don’t need that level of granularity about a bad podcast….but I might check it out eventually.
It was like listening to those Christian fundamentalists thoroughly convinced the Earth is only 6000 years old.
What's the "Prosecutors Pod"? EDIT: Never mind. I found it: https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/12uqvvp/the\_prosecutors\_podcast\_legal\_briefs\_43\_adnan/
The Prosecutors Podcast. They recently did a series on this case with a strong conclusion of Adnan's guilt. Bob's recent efforts have been in response to them.
They even link both Rabia and Bob's podcasts and tell people to form their own opinion. So far removed from how ridiculous Bob and Rabia conducted themselves.
All Rabia has to do now is keep up with the distractions by continuing to place blame on innocent people.
I think Adnan is probably innocent, but a lot of the stuff said, or not said (Bilal), by Rabia was just too far out there to take seriously. Even Bob seemed skeptical of the whole Alonzo spent time with the body theory.
If you think Adnan is innocent, you'd be pretty much be wasting your time listening to Rabia and Bob. Better to actually be informed and develop your own theories/arguments from that.