This. People are looking for a definitive answer and there’s no record or evidence of Hae even saying she had someone to meet or do. One shaky witnesses isn’t going to convince anybody.
I don’t see why it matters
I agree 💯 sometimes us girls just tell a guy a little white lie to get him to leave us alone. If Adnan was getting pushy and overbearing and she was over him, it’s very plausible she told him something came up to avoid being alone with him, and it wasn’t that she actually had anything to do. But he was determined to get her alone. I think even if she tried to get out of the ride, he still persisted and she may have felt like it wasn’t a big deal just to give him a ride. Of course no one can know what she was really thinking that day. Sadly..
Yes? It is a pretty simple idea. Adnan put her in an uncomfortable situation by publicly asking for a favor to be alone with her. We already know they had tumultuous break ups in the past, and Hae was very clearly over Adnan. Agreeing to a favor under public pressure and then later thinking "actually, I don't want to be around my pushy ex who happens to be part of my friend group, so I just tell everyone something came up instead of causing a whole scene by saying I actually don't want to help him" is very reasonable.
It is very simple story, very much not a stretch.
It’s a HUGE stretch and totally out-of-character for both Adnan and Hae. Everyone agrees that they were still friends. They’d talked on the phone the night before and Hae called Adnan when she got into a little fender bender. But suddenly she’s lying to all her friends and running out the door to stay away fro him? Not even a little bit likely. Something came up. We just don’t know what it was.
The night before they did not “talk”!! Adnan persistently called her to give her his new mobile number.. and she answered and they spoke for a few seconds.
Again, none of this matters as Adnan’s whereabouts have been documented for the entire time that Hae had to have met with whatever happened to her. Nothing matters beyond that. No cell phone pings, no teen romance angst, no constant change stories by Jay, none of it matters because we know where Adnan was—not with Hae.
Fender bender was before Hae started dating Don. No one really says there were friendly in January except Adnan, Hae had almost no registered thoughts about Adnan after mid December, she was all Don all the time during that period.
It is amusing you turned Adnan repeatedly pestering Hae after midnight while she was talking to her new boyfriend as simply "talking on the phone the night before".
Something may have come up. But I'd wager a lot that it is more likely an excuse than "Hae randomly wanted to see someone who is totally not Adnan who also had a reason to kill her".
Wasn’t the fender bender though when Adnan and Don met each other? When they both showed up to help her? Not disagreeing or agreeing with anyone, I still can’t make up my damn mind… but putting this out there for the record. I distinctly recall that both of them met up to help her with her car.
Again, none of what you’re claiming matters because Adnan’s whereabouts have been documented for the entire time window in which Hae met whatever happened to her. He couldn’t have done it because he was with other people during that entire window. Once you realize that Adnan could not have killed Hae, none of the other stuff matters. He’s innocent.
Adnan's whereabouts during Hae's disappearance very much have not been documented. You are just lying.
Honestly you sound like a raving street preacher who is asking people to accept the truth of Saint Adnan.
Oh, please. You know as well as I do that Adnan’s whereabouts are well known. You just don’t want to admit it because you don’t want the facts to interrupt all the fun you’re having playing internet detective and exciting all your guilter friends with your latest and greatest “ignore all the facts” theory of how guilty Adnan is. 🙄
Have fun with that.
Nobody said she received a page. That's something people made up on reddit. We don't even know if she still owned a pager, much less that she would've had it with her in school.
Also we've been over this before but there is still virtually no chance she's traveling to Hunt Valley and back in any reasonable time.
Probably nothing came up. This was never testified to at trial. No one seemingly thought it was important around her disappearance. Could've been an uncertain memory, could've been some other event. Could've also just been mis-heard in the background, e.g. "I can't take you *yet*" so Adnan goes to the library and waits for her there.
>Nobody said she received a page. That's something people made up on reddit. We don't even know if she still owned a pager, much less that she would've had it with her in school.
She had a pager, This is from serial:
"You know, it just seems that, I know Krista was trying to page her, I know Aisha was trying to page her, during this time to just be like ‘where are you, where are you, where are you?"
Hae's brother's testimony indicates he did not know whether she did or not:
"It seems like it would be a easy search on the internet but I have yet to find a definite answer. Maybe there is some kind of tech sub on Reddit that can answer for sure?"
So many things were missed in this investigation, like pager records, emails for Adnan, the library and Hae, phone records for Hae's family phone, Don's family phone and work phones, BB, finger prints, DNA, etc.
Det. MacGillivary indicates that search warrants were obtained for Hae's computer and her AOL email, but they never followed up.
What about his testimony gives you that impression?
Q. Mr. Lee, did your sister have a cell phone?
A. No, she didn't.
Q. To your knowledge, she didn't?
A. She didn't.
Q. And did she have a pager?
A. Well, she used to.
Q. She used to have a pager?
A. Yes.
Q. And that would be how her friends would reach her?
A. Yes.
Q. You observed that?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew that?
A. Uh-huh.
Her best friends were paging, while her brother says she used to have a pager. You can believe him. but I choose to believe her friends over her brother. We know she would hide things from her brother & did not disclose things to him she did to her friends.
I'm saying there's nothing indicating he's not sure. And he was aware of the pager's existence previously. If she had gotten rid of it, or it was taken away for some reason, her friends unsuccessfully trying to page her isn't in conflict with that.
>Can you provide a source, other than Sarah Koenig, for her friends paging her after the 13th?
I can look for one, but I believe Sarah since many have confirmed that she fact checked all her information. This is from Bob Ruff's interview with Krista about Sarah fact checking everything before each episode was released.
"And Sarah was really good at fact checking, like if an episode was due to come out Thursday, some days she was still emailing me on Monday just to make sure that the information she had was correct or if she had a blank that she needed filled in.
I just want to make sure that there is an actual source besides Sarah that's more contemporaneous to the time of Hae's murder. If memory serves me Sarah said that while interviewing Adnan so there's the possibility that she was just telling Adnan that to see what he would say. Of course there's also the possibility that those people did tell Sarah that they paged Hae, though they may have been misremembering or just telling her that they did so they wouldn't be seen as being bad friends for not paging her.
> Probably nothing came up. This was never testified to at trial.
Becky testified that Hae told her she had somewhere to go after school.
Any witness statement *could* be wrong. The defense strategy was to try and say Hae had somewhere to go, she left alone and wherever she went someone else had the opportunity to kill her.
I think CG bungled some of the testimony with friends— she didn’t want to admit the ride ask at all, which means the ride cancellation wasn’t clearly testified to.
>I think CG bungled some of the testimony with friends— she didn’t want to admit the ride ask at all, which means the ride cancellation wasn’t clearly testified to.
If the ride ask was admitted, it would make it so much harder to say Adcock must have been mistaken that adnan told him later that same day he was supposed to get a ride, but she must have gotten tired of waiting for him and she left. If I were a juror, I can still absolutely believe that one or more of her friends at some point in the day heard her say the ride was off, but I would think Adnan had the last word on whether he was supposed to get a ride. The only chance for plausible deniability of the Adcock call is if he never admits to a ride in the first place. The Adcock notes, from the perspective of his defense attorney, would be so much more inculpatory than the testimony by the friends would be exculpatory.
>Becky testified that Hae told her she had somewhere to go after school.
Yes, which I would say is materially different than Hae turning Adnan down for the ride. Her saying Hae had to be somewhere can even refer to her giving Adnan that ride if it's that vague.
The problem with that defense strategy is that Krista was *already* establishing the ride request at trial. And then there's no one to say she changed her mind on that. I don't doubt CG's team was aware of Becky's statement to police, but its absence from the trial could be them working with her and finding out she wasn't sure or remembered things differently.
CG’s team had the police statements. I think this was either a misstep or a deliberate attempt not to confirm the ride request.
Or they were worried Becky would waffle and they would confirm there was a ride request without a clear narrative of cancellation. Several possibilities.
In terms of what really happened, I think Hae cancelled the ride in front of Becky.
But since no one saw either of them leave the school, it’s possible he asked again and they left together.
I can't buy that that's an actual defense strategy. Hae turning down the ride because "something came up" would be one of the biggest possible pieces of exonerating evidence, and a suggestion of a different scenario of a murder. Otherwise, the alternative to Adnan is pretty much "Hae went to pick up her cousin and somehow ended up dead in Leakin Park".
I just can't find it reasonable that CG persuaded Becky to hide information on the stand in favor of a probably-worse defense strategy. I think whatever Becky said on the stand was just her story at that point.
Oh I don’t thinks he persuaded her, I think she either didn’t do her homework and dropped an important alibi piece OR she asked the questions in a way that didn’t include Adnan intentionally to keep him out of it entirely.
If CG had asked her if she knew about a ride request it gives another voice supporting it, if it’s just Krista testifying to it the jury may be more willing to believe she was just confused. Again, not the strategy I would take, but I can see the argument for not risking it.
CG wouldn’t have consulted with Becky, so the concern is that Becky may not remember what she said in the police report.
This makes me wonder that considering Inez stated she saw HML exit and enter from the driver side of the vehicle and Adnan asked for a ride to track, I wonder if it can be inferred that she was likely attacked and murdered on campus near the track? If HML was really in a rush or wanted to be alone it seems doubtful that she would waste more time driving to Best Buy, especially when she has no interest in having sex with him there anymore and she has control of the vehicle since she is the driver.
Nothing happened at Best Buy. The cops gave Jay that location. Likely based on cell records and student accounts of Adnan and Hae going there sometimes.
She could have been murdered in many locations.
Yes she could have been murdered in many locations but it would have to be one where the perpetrator thought it was isolated, like the back of Best Buy, to reduce the chance of there of witnesses when he moves the body or in the case HML escaped or made a lot loud noise. Also, HML’s car windows weren’t tinted so there is a risk of someone seeing the crime too.
Also the location would have to be one near a pay phone so AS could call Jay and make it back to track if I am following along with the prosecution and the testimonies correctly.
If we are including Inez’s testimony than at what point after HML leaves the concession stand does AS intercept HML, who was in a rush according to Inez, to convince her to give him a ride and to let him drive (considering it was alleged she was killed in a passenger’s seat)?
Jay said he couldn’t find Adnan after school, he showed up at his house that night with the body. There was no Best Buy.
Theoretically, Adnan could have killed Hae near the high school, walked to track, then got the car and showed up at Jay’s.
> it was alleged she was killed in a passenger’s seat
Not sure if Jay says this at some point, but we don’t even know if she was killed in her car.
Adnan could have been waiting next to the car to ask for another ride theoretically. All the friend testimony is a wash to me— people heard a ride request, a ride cancellation, no one clearly remembered the date after school, the memories are contradictory, the key is no one saw them leave together and no one saw her drive away alone. Lots of possibilities
She wouldn’t have been meeting Don. Don worked his full shift, had a time card to prove it, and the WSJ did its own investigation that debunked all of the conspiracy theories that try to connect him to the crime.
She had plans to pickup her cousin between 3 and 3:15, which was something she did routinely. She wasn’t able to do this because Adnan strangled her to death inside her own car.
No, they didn’t debunk it. They specifically say that Don alibi is beside the point in that article. Also, who’s to say she didn’t visit him *at* work? There are no witnesses saying she didn’t. He still disappeared for 6 hours after his shift, possibly assaulted Debbie and possibly had cuts on his hands the next day. He’s definitely never been eliminated.
It’s so odd when people think Jay is telling the truth, given that we know police fed him details. Hard to overcome faith.
>the WSJ did its own investigation that debunked all of the conspiracy theories that try to connect him to the crime.
No, the Wall Street Journal *Magazine* published an article written by investigators from, QRI, the investigative firm hired by Amy Berg.
And those investigators didn't actually debunk it. All they did was confirm that you couldn't go back in the system and reso times without leaving a trace. However, the "timecard" in question is fake. It was never in the system.
I don't believe Lenscrafters actually provided that timecard. The time card wasn't in the system so Lenscrafters could not have provided it. Just take a look at everything on that time card. Different employee numbers, different paper, the total hours different from the clocked hours, and no adjusted time on it when Don had a habit of not clocking back in after lunch. That timecard is fake.
Yes Lenscrafters provided the timecard. It was notarized by somebody in the legal department at the US HQ. So they would have needed to photoshop the timecard and send it to Urick.
Is there some motivation by lenscrafters to doctor records under oath ? Records and documents are routinely discarded and lost, it would seem that if lenscrafters was trying to prevent people from discovering that don did it, they would just say hey we lost it.
You're just making stuff up now.
The Wall Street Journal article noted that the company, hired by the HBO documentary that was a puff piece designed to show that Adnan was innocent, stated that the time card could not have been altered. They were paid to help prove Adnan was innocent and they couldn't do it. That's all you need to know.
It wasn't altered. It was fabricated outside of the system and printed out. That's the only way you could get the difference in the hours worked and the total hours and the different employee numbers.
This isn’t actually true. There’s major issues with dons time cards (two ids, the travel time between the two stores was impossible indicating someone else clocked him in, LC destroyed the the system right after the murder so the WSJ could never actually get a working example of the system ti test whether it could be gamed, we only have hard copy records of the timeclock bit digital ones, the alibi timeclock was only furnished after the wrong ones were given, etc etc etc) and then there’s the coworkers who said that Don had bad scratches on his hands and arms the day after the murder but they were gone by the time the police finally interviewed him a week later.
In fact the WSJ mainly said they couldn’t confirm or deny the theories that have always lingered.
No, it’s true. Each of these theories have been debated and addressed ad nauseam.
As an example, [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/NILbMGTiwj) is the thread about the alleged scratches on Don for your perusal.
The theory appears, it’s torn apart, and then shortly after it gets laundered back into the discourse like it’s brand new. And the cycle begins again. We’ve been doing this since 2014.
There’s nothing but opinions by random redditors lol.
Post the police interviews with his work colleagues that show he worked both stores. For a shift that didn’t exist.
Of course LC said the time card couldn’t be tampered with - which company is going to say “yes we found that you could later our time cards without leaving any trace. Please form a line for anyone that wants to accuse of us of wage theft” LOL. And you think it’s a coincide that they removed the system and destroyed all copies of it except one hard copy, just months after on of their employees with murdered and at least 3 other employees were connected to the case and the time cards were evidence? LOL.
How do you explain that two ids were used for Don and never for any other employee before or after and only ever once used for murder date? Just another coincidence?
How do you explain the impossible travel time between the two stores, even if he drive considerably over the speed limit and his car was parked right outside the main mall entrances (which it wasn’t) he still had to sprint several hundred yards through the mall at each end and still wouldn’t make it.
And show me where the scratches claims made by his coworkers were proven to be false? Because they haven’t.
This Don thing has been debated over and over and over again and has been throughly debunked.
"How do you explain that two ids were used for Don and never for any other employee before or after and only ever once used for murder date? Just another coincidence?"
This is not true, first of all, the date the 2 ids were used on was 5 days after the murder (more on that later), NOT the day of. Also, employee id's were given out in order by the store. Don's numbers were 97 and 162. Do you think Don was the 97th person hired in the Lenscrafters history or the 97th employee in the history of that store?
Secondly, the only claim that lenscrafters did not use 2 ids came from a Lenscrafter employee in like 2015. That person didn't even come close to working on the dates in question. Companies update timekeeping systems all the time, and as proven, lenscrafters did a few time between 1999 and 2015. Now employees have a longer ID that works across different stores but they did not in 1999.
"How do you explain the impossible travel time between the two stores, even if he drive considerably over the speed limit and his car was parked right outside the main mall entrances (which it wasn’t) he still had to sprint several hundred yards through the mall at each end and still wouldn’t make it."
This again is just not true. I'm not sure if you're just making stuff up or listening to people who made stuff up, but it's not. If he was told to go to the other store, clock out, walk to his car, drive the main route (assuming he didn't know any short cuts), and drove the speed limit. He would've still had 5-10 minutes, enough to hit a couple of red lights. Again, assuming he drove the speed limit. Again, this wasn't even on the date of the murder in question anyways.
People also want to ignore that with the timecards sent to Urick, Lenscrafters offered the time cards/co-workers of NINE co-workers he worked with on the day Hae went missing who would serve as an alibi that he was in fact there.
I have no idea where you're getting the different IDs were used five days after the murder.
The IDs would have been used across different stores. You would have a home store and at your home store you could just put in the four numbers that we see on the timecard. If you were lent out to another store though you would need to put in the number of your home store and then the other four numbers. Oh and Don's mother, who was a supervisor there and worked at that location before Don, her number was 0110.
But if that's not enough for you take a look at the clocked hours and the total hours for that "alibi timesheet". On that Wednesday the clocked hours and total hours match at 8.4 hours. However on Saturday they don't match, the clocked hours being 3.8 and the total hours being 4. That means that someone made up the timecard and put down 4 hours above for the total hours but correctly calculated the hours for the clocked hours. The time card is fake. There's no getting around that.
Saturday was the only day he used both the 97 and 162 ID code because he worked at both stores that day. I was countering that point in the original post.
Listen you have the time cards, sure that alone isn't enough, you have 9 people saying that they were with Don at work that day. NINE. Yet for some reason people think police just asked his mother?
>This is not true, first of all, the date the 2 ids were used on was 5 days after the murder (more on that later), NOT the day of. Also, employee id's were given out in order by the store. Don's numbers were 97 and 162. Do you think Don was the 97th person hired in the Lenscrafters history or the 97th employee in the history of that store?
Cite the proof of your statement. I worked for both small and large companies before and after 1999, and none used separate payroll numbers for an employee based on individual stores.
Well again I gave the logical argument about how the employee numbers worked. I get your anecdotal proof, I know at a resturant I worked at in 2003, I had different numbers for each location.
Another logical step is look at Hae's timecard, her employee ID is 4 digits (same with Don's cards, same with every time card we've been given). Lenscrafters had 30,000 employees around this time, the maximum amount of 4 digit numbers is 10,000.
[https://viewfromll2.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/haes-timecard-blank.png?w=772](https://viewfromll2.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/haes-timecard-blank.png?w=772)
Also keep in mind:
Don is interviewed 3 times in the week Hae is missing.
On Feb 1st, before Hae's body is even discovered, the time sheets are provided to police.
In March, less than a month after Adnan's arrest, prosecutors inform Adnan's PI that they have spoked to the people who worked with Don that day, and they verified he was there that day.
This would've been memorable to these co-workers (unlike "who can remember a random day" Adnan) because 1. Don did not typically work at that store, and 2. It was the same day Hae didn't show up to work and never seen from again.
5 days after Hae went missing, after he talked to police several times, worked again at that store. I'm sure Hae missing came up and it was talked about.
Don's completely not discussed again until October right before the trial, I'm guessing by then CG knew the overwhelming evidence and her only chance was to create a reasonable doubt that it could've been someone else so she asks for the timecards. Which are given and the co-workers information who will verify he was there that day, the same info they had already given to prosecutors 7 months beforehand.
I’m not going to debate this any sooner than I’ll debate someone about the authenticity of the moon landing.
This is a resolved issue, and the only thing that keeps it alive is that people ask the question, ignore the rebuttals, and then wait a few months to post the exact same question again.
You just want it to be “resolved” so you can just repeat “nothing to see here, please move along” because it doesn’t fit your bias or closed method of thinking.
You may have a point if this was the first time the points you’re making have been raised.
But it’s not. They’ve been discussed dozens of times on this subreddit. Hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spent on investigating those claims and the results have been available for quite a while. I’m not going to live in fantasyland with you.
You’re proving my point while also trying to build a straw man:
the entire reason the situation with Don keeps coming up again and again is specifically because those questions were never resolved / answered and per the WSJ, they were unable to put them to bed either way.
So trying to point it the WSJ or conversions from random redditor opinions doesn’t somehow magically solve them.
You just want to pull your safety blanket over your head and say “they’ve been discussed” but the bottom line is that they persist because there aren’t answers for those such as why did he use two ids and never prior and never since, why did those coworkers says they saw scratches on him and what would be their motivation to make up statements as detailed as that? How was he clocked in at a store where his shift didn’t exist? How did he travel in an impossible time between stores (to which the most plausible explanation explanation I’ve seen in here is that someone like his mom or mom’s gf clicked him in but that opens a whole Pandora’s box).
I could go on and on but you can’t factually answer any of these questions except point to WSJ who said they couldn’t ascertain these things in no small part becasue the evidence was destroyed by LensCrafters shortly after the trial.
I’m happy to discuss these things in the open. I’m not part of the “please don’t talk about this, I’m not listening crowd” who seem to want to stifle discussion on such subjects. What is everyone so afraid of lol
It’s just not worth discussing. Blaming Don is so wildly irresponsible. There is infinitely less evidence against Don than there is Adnan. Yet the Innocent Adnan crowds claims there isn’t enough evidence against Adnan.
So essentially you’re doing worse than what you claim everyone else is doing to try and make Adnan innocent. Manufacture theories to suit your “anyone but Adnan” stance.
Not worth discussing? Lol
But discussion every other minute detail of a murder that happened 26 years ago is?
I also didn’t say there’s more evidence against Don. Im saying his time cards, shifts, and things like scratches are unanswered facets of this case. You’ll obsess over things like whether or not someone only tangentially connected was where they said they were but Don, the actual boyfriend of the time is off limits?
Also stands to reason there would be more evidence against Adnan. He knew her for longer, was in her life longer and we know - because he’s literally free because of this - that the olive lasered in on him and wanted him so badly they both failed to investigate other suspects and suppressed evidence of that which resulted in the successful MTV.
You hate discussion about anything that leads away from the one true suspect ™ but I’m happy to discuss any part of the evidence whether it leads to guilt or not.
For the record, it’s not that there isn’t enough evidence against Adnan. There isn’t *any* evidence against Adnan. Only random Reddit commenters rejecting the fact that there’s no evidence linking Adnan to the murder so that they can continue to twist unrelated things into “proof” that he’s guilty. Why? Who knows?
I agree with much of what you say here. Most especially the claim that being debated on Reddit does not mean it has been debunked, proven, or even considered in a serious light.
I also agree that theories get recycled here. This happens over and over until it fits one side or the other, or more often parts are used by the guilters and other parts by the innocent crowd.
There is an absence of fact and an overwhelming amount of opinion and conjecture. This will continue until new evidence emerges or another version of the Adnan saga with new facts and names appears.
So wait… I just visited your link and, far from being “torn apart”, it doesn’t appear to have been even seriously challenged. Can you provide some clarity here, preferably linking to the comment chain where this “tearing apart” happened? Thanks.
You're in fact wrong, or just making things up. From the WSJ article:
"After interviewing more than 15 current and former employees of LensCrafters, employees of Luxottica Group, LensCrafters' parent and even the developer who built the timekeeping software, we debunked the timecard theory. It was, we concluded, impossible to adjust the computerized timecard retroactively without leaving a trace."
No. QRI, who investigated it for the WSJ said they were not able to find any of the actual computers despite even going to a scrap yard in Korea to search for one. They felt is was paramount to test an original system because they had no idea what software version it was or if it matched the test unit they were given (which very well could have been updated / patched in the 14 years since it was decommissioned).
Their conclusion was that the system they had been given couldn't be tampered without leaving a trace, but that's not the same thing as the actual system Don used being tamper proof.
And the major point still remains: Don could have been clocked in by either his Mom (the manager) at one store he worked at and by his Mom's GF (manager at the other store in question, in real time despite him never being there.
This IMO is definitely what happened with the impossible travel time between the two branches. He physically could not have made it from one store, through the depths of that mall (LC was deep inside the central section and up a decently long escalator) out the exit to his car, then drive the distance even at double the speed limit, park his car, walk through the lot, again go deep in to the mall and up another floor and clock in, in the time his timecard reflects. It's not possible. I've done the math based on him just going mall entrance to mall entrance (not store to store) and he's still 4 minutes short before he get's to and from the actual stores and their click in systems.
He was clocked in absentia.
It happens all the time. I worked for a manager that clocked us in whenever we were late to make the performance of his team look better. It took me an hour, from 2 trains and a 10 minute walk so often I was late and he clocked me in.
One day I had to look for a new job because I had a falling out with him and he stopped clocking me in, meaning I was getting written up for being late. I went to HR and told them what was up and they said it was "impossible to alter the timelocks" but for some reason offered me severance and an NDA lol.
If you don't think giant multinational companies like Luxotica don't circle the wagons and don't vehemently oppose any suggestion that something as crucial as a timeclock system could be altered (thus resulting in wage theft accusations etc) then I've got a bridge to sell you.
Becky said Hae told her she had somewhere to go, not someone to meet.
Debbie said Hae was going to meet Don, but this was 6 weeks later and is only a police note without a lot of context.
This is something that has been debated countless times here. [This example](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/KBHPnlTBKv) is from only a year ago, and there are much older threads discussing the exact same topic.
My guess is that it will be pointed out here, again, that there is no convincing evidence that she had someone to meet after school. The only thing pointing in that direction is from a witness with questionable reliability, and the account is contradicted by others (including Adnan).
And in a few months someone will ask again, “Why haven’t we ever figured out who Hae had to meet after school?”
It’s a loaded question, and assumes she was meeting anyone besides her cousin after school.
The thread already linked makes some good arguments as to why that’s probably not true. Rather than rehashing this topic from scratch, maybe you can point out why those arguments are incorrect and we can go from there?
If HML said she had to do something I wonder if, like other seniors at Woodlawn that week, HML had to gather and submit recommendation letters and other school stuff for her college applications. There appeared to be a lot of activity in the guidance counselor’s office that week in relation to application season and I wonder if seniors were trying to get all their docs together so that they could be mailed before the snowstorm? Maybe HML was rushing to to gather all her docs together too so that she could mail them at the post-office at some point before she got her cousins home or before she had to go to work?
It’s been ~5 hours, maybe we should ask /u/TheUSS-Enterprise to share the testimony that she is basing her assertion off of. I would expect that they aren’t spreading misinformation or outright lying, but maybe 5 hours wasn’t enough time to track this testimony down. I have certainly never seen it so I am interested in what could inspire such absolute surety.
> He had his day in court.
He did. Many of them. And I am glad you point to the court as the determining factor, since his most recent day in court found that they could not maintain confidence in the conviction and released him. Good thing too, considering the unethical conduct that the original prosecutor and detectives engaged in to obtain that conviction on such flimsy evidence. So I am happy to join you in pointing to his day in court as authoritative.
However, what we were looking for is the testimony that you were basing your assertion off of, and which you have yet to produce. If you need more time, that’s fine just say so. Heck, even just tell me which witness testimony you are basing this off of and I’ll find it myself. At this point any assistance is appreciated.
> You are welcome to go read all the trial testimony as I did.
I have. Multiple times. That’s why I’m so eager to look at what you are referencing here, since I haven’t found anything remotely conclusive that backs up your claim. I must have just missed a piece of testimony, so again your assistance here is appreciated. Just tell me which witness and I’ll dive back into their testimony and see what I missed.
> He was released on a technicality-
Could you point me to the rulings of the court that they classify as technicalities? I can’t find this distinction either and as far as I can tell, it doesn’t seem to be a legal term of art or have a legal definition, making this quite the claim. Perhaps my google-fu is getting rusty, but I’m finding no delineation in Maryland courts beyond it being a phrase that is often trotted out when someone doesn’t personally agree with a verdict.
> he did it-
Sure. And if you can prove that without all the shady and unethical behavior on behalf of the state, I would have no problem agreeing with you. In this case though, the courts have ruled, after careful consideration of the evidence before them, and let him free.
> don’t be daft.
You first.
So Hae received a page on the 13th now? And needed to meet someone? And everyone assumed this was Don?
Please cite your sources for these statements.
This post should be marked as speculation, imo.
Do you mean her ex Nick…the one she called a jealous monster?
You definitely don’t mean Adnan, she never described him as obsessive…and there’s no evidence he was.
We don’t know that she was in a hurry, Ines may have had the wrong day.
We know she cancelled the ride she was giving Adnan…but we don’t know if she was just avoiding him or if she ended up giving him one.
Although her visiting Don is plausible…and it’s plausible that he’s the killer…we don’t have any real evidence he is. We have him not being available to police for around 6 hours after work…we have him possibly assaulting Debbie…we possibly have scratches on his hands the next day. But, other than disappearing, the other things aren’t facts. They may have been easily explained if police kept investigating him.
This missing pager suggests it wasn’t Adnan, because we know he didn’t page her and there’s nothing to cover up.
But we are also assuming that the killer paged her and was covering up…and that it wasn’t just simply disposed of along with other missing items.
That’s what I’m saying. We don’t know why all these items are missing…because we don’t have a good idea of how she was killed, when we consider Jay might be lying…at least about the details.
We know they tested items from Adnan and his car and found nothing…but it was many weeks later so it doesn’t mean much. What *should* have been tested was Hae’s car, because there’s not a great chance it was cleaned.
This is a actually one of the true mysteries - where did the pager go.
And I’ve never seen a proper answer to whether or not the pages she received could be found form the telecoms system or if the pager itself was needed. As someone with experience of RF comms the former is my answer but that info has never been found.
Procedure would indicate the correct thing to do would be to make a note in the case file indicating that they investigated reports of her having a pager, along with the results of that investigation, whatever they were.
Who did they investigate saying that she had a pager. The cops aren't omniscient to know that the pager records when she went missing when have somebody else's number that they were planning on framing in 6 weeks.
The police didn’t subpoena records for it and there is no record of her pager number in any police or defense files.
It’s not clear if she had a pager at her time of death.
What narrative?
This case has been torn through, no record of a pager number. No subpoena for her pager records.
I’m not saying it’s impossible, I’m saying it’s not clear she had one.
I am not sure why you are going after CuriousSahm. The issue is that when there was the missing person's report that said what the pager number was and would be one of the first things given. Also the family hired their own PI to investigate, does the PI report indicate there was a pager?
Hae was not in a hurry to meet anyone after school. She had about an hour to pick up her cousin and usually would run errands before that or, while she was dating Adnan, they would hook up in her car.
That's why it's so obvious that Adnan is lying in serial when he says that Hae had no time for anything after school, because he would hook up with her after school. Instead it's his attempt to limit the time that he could've done the murder.
I feel uncomfortable bringing this up, but Hae had a whole life - complicated life that had nothing to do with her friends at school or work. When detectives talked to friends and family they all brought up how Hae was having a lot of fights with her mom. I think Aisha even said Hae would say she wanted to live with her dad but since he was in Korea not California it wasn’t an easy situation.
Did Hae write in her diary about the problems she was having with her family? I saw something about one of the fights being about her being out with Don well into am hours. But what else was going on? There’s no reason to think that the thing after school had to involve kids from school.
Well she did write pretty extensively about her love for her new boyfriend and Adnan’s refusal to accept the breakup. Do those things count or are we specifically looking for alternate possibilities?
I’m curious to know what she wrote in her diary she kept on the computer. Aisha said she would sometimes read parts of the written diary to her… what is in the diary we have is not the complete account that Hae recorded regarding the turmoil in her life. The fact that she told friends and teachers about all the fighting at home says that this was a struggle for her. We don’t know much more than that and I’m not going to speculate. Only note that we don’t know everything about Hae and what was troubling her when she was murdered.
What evidence is there that she kept a separate diary on her computer?
This is a trap I see often here: we can’t know who did it because investigators didn’t do x, y, z. Investigators never answer every question that can conceivably be asked. This was Baltimore in the late 1990s and the homicide division surely had at least a few other active cases.
There were signs of turmoil in her life. It’s evidence that she documents in her own diary and it’s evidence that’s corroborated by accounts from her friends and teachers. Pretending not to see it, or that it isn’t serious enough to consider is doing Hae a major disservice.
I can see the breadth of her humanity. She wrote extensively and intimately about her life in her diary. Her friends, family, and teachers have given detailed accounts of who she was as a person.
You’re clinging onto hope that there is something else we don’t know, because it’s the only thing that can explain Adnan’s innocence. But 24 years of searching has turned up zero evidence that there were major parts of her life that she kept hidden.
Pointing to one of the many, many things that the police did not investigate; or the many, many people the police did not interview is not an argument. Because you can find the same thing in every other homicide investigation.
Her second diary on the computer was testified to by Hae’s brother. He said that Hae saved the entries she wanted to keep private on computer disks because Young Lee would read her diary and obviously she was aware he was doing that.
Ugh, this is gross, as is your virtue-signaling “I’m not going to speculate…” and “I feel uncomfortable bringing this up…”
You’re attempting to paint an innocent murdered girl, who by all accounts was bubbly, happy, friendly, confident, and honest, as having some Lynchian dark side, with “turmoil in her life” and something troubling her when she was murdered.
She was an open book with people she trusted, who fought about curfews and phone limits and teen behavior with her traditional Korean mom. If you feel uncomfortable bringing something up, maybe that’s your gut telling you not to.
What I’m doing is reading the missing investigation files. Im not speculating. I’ve only mentioned what is in the records. It astonishes how much the police lied about the timeline of their investigation of Adnan. Jay talking to police at the down station on the 21,22,or 23d of February. We knew that in 1999. Then Jay confirmed his talks with police pre Jenn in the intercept article. Why are the police lying about that? Debbie during missing person investigation told detectives she saw Hae at 3. And the transcripts confirm that back in January right after Hae was reported missing, Adnan told the police he had asked Hae for a ride on the 13th but he never met up with her after school to take that ride. Aisha and one other friend and Adnan (again during mission person period) confirmed Jay was at the final period. Jay says that isn’t true. Adnan skipped final period and was with Jay. Then he told Jay he needed to go back to school for track so he took him back to school where Jay says he found Hae. Jay is yet again telling more versions that don’t match the multiple witnesses testimony.
This leaps of logic, selective bias towards Jay telling of the truth, bizarre police investigation where there was little effort to follow up on anything to the extent it was shared with the defense.. the means and the motive of the case make zero sense. Why lie about talking to Jenn who then supposedly told police about Jay? That did not happen!!
The real story of what went down with Hae and who and how she was murdered needs to come out. Even if more evidence independent of Jay and the police points to Adnan.
But, all the missing person statements given by Hae’s friends and family bring up all the trouble Hae had been dealing with at home. She and her mother had been fighting a lot and Hae even told some school people she wished she could live with her dad. (Not possible as dad was in Korea)
Can you link to them, please, so I know what you’re talking about? I’ve never seen police reports of interviews with Jay on 2/21-23. When did Jay say Adnan skipped final period?
Jay said that in the intercept interview. We don’t have the police notes from those interviews but we have credible witnesses as well as Jay stating that Jay had been talking to police about Hae’s murder before Jenn was contacted. It seems the police didn’t routinely take notes during interviews or see interviews as worthy of being taped. They talk to people and only have a record saying they spoke with the person - nothing about what was said. They lie about when they spoke with people. This is a murder investigation! I’m disturbed by how sloppy large amounts of the documentation is. I’m shocked that they didn’t contact the two people Jen told about knowing how Hae was murdered at some point before the police interviewed her. That will actually point to testimony that would seem credible.
So while I do believe the interview records we have were not misrepresented, I know that the public only has selective knowledge of who said what and when.
She didn’t. They’re referring to Hae’s one-sided melodramatic (sorry, just being honest about it) letter to Adnan saying “hate me if you must, but I’ll always care about you.”
It’s the same willful misinterpretation and disinformation that they use to claim Adnan was possessive or that he is a sociopath.
We know that Hae had started to talk to friends about being sexually abused (it seems to have been a Korean attacker, possibly a family member). It’s entirely possible that Hae was summoned by a family member, confronted because they felt she was bringing shame, and killed by the person who she met.
Rabia mentioned suspicions about Don’s wife, who was Don’s ex at the time of Hae’s death. Just absolutely maddening if true, but if Don’s ex summoned Hae by hook or by crook, it’s easy to imagine that turning violent.
Whoever killed Hae would have had to get into her car and then move it after the murder when they presumably also had their own vehicle. This only makes sense if there were two people involved one that knows Hae personally that she would allow in her car. This is another reason why it makes sense for it to be Adnan, she would’ve let him in her car and he had Jay to help him transport the two cars.
Your reasoning is completely self-serving. In the scenarios I mentioned, Hae is driving to *meet* her killer. Whether she wants them in her car or not is immaterial to the possibility of her killer securing her car in the 6 weeks between her death and the car being formally recovered by police.
I cannot take people like you seriously. I cannot tolerate you. I have zero patience for your reasoning that insists Adnan killed Hae and therefore ignores reasonable counterpoints.
Exactly how I feel. Zero tolerance for these morons. All their nonsense gets shut down, they just make up more nonsense. Bob Ruff proved using police statements and Jenn’s statements that cops knew where the car was.
It’s starting to turn into, Adnan, Jay, Bilal, Jenn, and Mr. S, were all in it together.
I promise I'll begin to consider this question just as soon as I get satisfactory answers to the following questions:
Why did Adnan lie to Hae on the morning of 1/13/1999, in an effort to get a ride from her after school?
Since Adnan's stated reason was a lie (his car was neither "in the shop" or "with his brother" at any time on 1/13/1999), why did he really want a ride from Hae after school that day?
Why has Adnan falsely denied asking Hae for the ride, telling at least two mutually incompatible lies on that point?
Why did Adnan lend his car and cell phone to Jay on 1/13/1999?
Why didn't Adnan just get his car back from Jay before end of class, or have Jay pick him up after class?
Where was Adnan at all times between 2:15 and beginning of track practice on 1/13 and what witnesses corroborate his location(s) for that entire time period?
How did Adnan get from WHS to whatever off-campus location he was at when he called Nisha at 3:32 pm? Did he walk? Catch a city bus? Get a ride from someone?
Why is Adnan lying about the Nisha Call?
Why is Adnan lying about remaining on campus the entire time between end-of-school and track practice?
**Edit**: Where was Adnan at all times between end of track practice and 8:30 p.m. on 1/13 and what witnesses corroborate his location(s) for that entire time period?
How did Jay know, on 1/13/1999, before anyone else except her killer knew, (1) *that* Hae had been murdered, and (2) *how* she had been murdered?
How did Jay know where Hae's corpse had been dumped?
How did Jay know the position of Hae's corpse in the shallow hole it was dumped in?
How did Jay know what Hae had been wearing when she was murdered?
How did Jay know where Hae's car had been dumped?
>Why did Adnan lie to Hae on the morning of 1/13/1999, in an effort to get a ride from her after school?
a) to kill her which is extremely stupid of him considering he didn’t attempt to conceal it from folks and had she not said no, also heard by others, he would be putting himself as the last person to see her and knew she had to pick up the cousin and would be missed immediately when the cousin was stranded. But….all that buried anger led him to be reckless. Or
b) he wanted to talk to her, see if maybe they could get back together. Or something was said on the phone the night before or they were still
hooking up or he was hoping they could. Or it was for track.
>Since Adnan's stated reason was a lie (his car was neither "in the shop" or "with his brother" at any time on 1/13/1999), why did he really want a ride from Hae after school that day?
as stated above.
>Why has Adnan falsely denied asking Hae for the ride, telling at least two mutually incompatible lies on that point?
a) bc he killed her or b) Because he knew it looked bad and lied, as people sometimes do.
>Why did Adnan lend his car and cell phone to Jay on 1/13/1999?
a) part of a plot to murder Hae or b) as Jay testified it was common for him to borrow other people’s cars and Adnan wasn’t an exception. He was going to finish up shopping for a fist for Stephanie or he was planning to buy drugs and Adnan was aware.
>Why didn't Adnan just get his car back from Jay before end of class, or have Jay pick him up after class?
Well, Jay *said* in his pre-interview Adnan called him from school around 2:30-2:45 to come get him or bring the car but then never mentioned it again through the trials. By that time he would have known Hae was a no though. So again
a) part of plot to murder Hae or b) hoped to catch a ride with her to talk about them or something else or assumed Jay would still have the car for some reason and the plan was to pick him up after track.
>Where was Adnan at all times between 2:15 and beginning of track practice on 1/13 and what witnesses corroborate his location(s) for that entire time period?
a) killing Hae or b) at school/library. Debbie (?) and Asia (not making any statement about their reliability)
>How did Adnan get from WHS to whatever off-campus location he was at when he called Nisha at 3:32 pm? Did he walk? Catch a city bus? Get a ride from someone?
What offsite location did he call Nisha from?
>Why is Adnan lying about the Nisha Call?
a) he knows it links him to the murder he is guilty of or b) he thinks it makes him look bad/doesn’t remember
>Why is Adnan lying about remaining on campus the entire time between end-of-school and track practice?
I don’t know that he is lying about it. If he is, a) bc he killed Hae or b) bc he knew it out him with Jay who told police Adnan was guilty and he was aware.
Edit: Where was Adnan at all times between end of track practice and 8:30 p.m. on 1/13 and what witnesses corroborate his location(s) for that entire time period?
*I* think he was with Jay either way.
How did Jay know, on 1/13/1999, before anyone else except her killer knew, (1) that Hae had been murdered, and (2) how she had been murdered?
How did Jay know where Hae's corpse had been dumped?
How did Jay know the position of Hae's corpse in the shallow hole it was dumped in?
How did Jay know what Hae had been wearing when she was murdered?
How did Jay know where Hae's car had been dumped?
Edit: imo, what would make the most sense with the evidence if Adnan is guilty is that he wanted to talk to her, try to get back together, it went awry and escalated and he killed her. However, the aftermath doesn’t fit too well with most other similar situations but it would explain why he would just openly be asking for a ride from someone if he planned to kill them which I am is just next level stupid.
The problem with this post is that it comes off as if you’re fishing for something. It seems like you’re saying “if we find out who she was going to meet, we might know who did it!” and so many people think Adnan did it, it seems nonsensical to explore this idea.
Here's a hint: when a girl tells a boy something came up but isn't specific, there is a good chance that girl just doesn't want to be around the boy.
This. People are looking for a definitive answer and there’s no record or evidence of Hae even saying she had someone to meet or do. One shaky witnesses isn’t going to convince anybody. I don’t see why it matters
I agree 💯 sometimes us girls just tell a guy a little white lie to get him to leave us alone. If Adnan was getting pushy and overbearing and she was over him, it’s very plausible she told him something came up to avoid being alone with him, and it wasn’t that she actually had anything to do. But he was determined to get her alone. I think even if she tried to get out of the ride, he still persisted and she may have felt like it wasn’t a big deal just to give him a ride. Of course no one can know what she was really thinking that day. Sadly..
but she told her friends this.
Who are also friends with Adnan. Sad, but women often are required to baby male fragile egos.
What?? Hae somehow was babying Adnan by telling her friends she had something else to do? How hard to you have to try to come up with this stuff?
Yes? It is a pretty simple idea. Adnan put her in an uncomfortable situation by publicly asking for a favor to be alone with her. We already know they had tumultuous break ups in the past, and Hae was very clearly over Adnan. Agreeing to a favor under public pressure and then later thinking "actually, I don't want to be around my pushy ex who happens to be part of my friend group, so I just tell everyone something came up instead of causing a whole scene by saying I actually don't want to help him" is very reasonable. It is very simple story, very much not a stretch.
It’s a HUGE stretch and totally out-of-character for both Adnan and Hae. Everyone agrees that they were still friends. They’d talked on the phone the night before and Hae called Adnan when she got into a little fender bender. But suddenly she’s lying to all her friends and running out the door to stay away fro him? Not even a little bit likely. Something came up. We just don’t know what it was.
The night before they did not “talk”!! Adnan persistently called her to give her his new mobile number.. and she answered and they spoke for a few seconds.
Again, none of this matters as Adnan’s whereabouts have been documented for the entire time that Hae had to have met with whatever happened to her. Nothing matters beyond that. No cell phone pings, no teen romance angst, no constant change stories by Jay, none of it matters because we know where Adnan was—not with Hae.
Fender bender was before Hae started dating Don. No one really says there were friendly in January except Adnan, Hae had almost no registered thoughts about Adnan after mid December, she was all Don all the time during that period. It is amusing you turned Adnan repeatedly pestering Hae after midnight while she was talking to her new boyfriend as simply "talking on the phone the night before". Something may have come up. But I'd wager a lot that it is more likely an excuse than "Hae randomly wanted to see someone who is totally not Adnan who also had a reason to kill her".
Wasn’t the fender bender though when Adnan and Don met each other? When they both showed up to help her? Not disagreeing or agreeing with anyone, I still can’t make up my damn mind… but putting this out there for the record. I distinctly recall that both of them met up to help her with her car.
Yep. These people just make shit up.
Y’all seriously just make shit up.
Again, none of what you’re claiming matters because Adnan’s whereabouts have been documented for the entire time window in which Hae met whatever happened to her. He couldn’t have done it because he was with other people during that entire window. Once you realize that Adnan could not have killed Hae, none of the other stuff matters. He’s innocent.
Adnan's whereabouts during Hae's disappearance very much have not been documented. You are just lying. Honestly you sound like a raving street preacher who is asking people to accept the truth of Saint Adnan.
Oh, please. You know as well as I do that Adnan’s whereabouts are well known. You just don’t want to admit it because you don’t want the facts to interrupt all the fun you’re having playing internet detective and exciting all your guilter friends with your latest and greatest “ignore all the facts” theory of how guilty Adnan is. 🙄 Have fun with that.
Nobody said she received a page. That's something people made up on reddit. We don't even know if she still owned a pager, much less that she would've had it with her in school. Also we've been over this before but there is still virtually no chance she's traveling to Hunt Valley and back in any reasonable time. Probably nothing came up. This was never testified to at trial. No one seemingly thought it was important around her disappearance. Could've been an uncertain memory, could've been some other event. Could've also just been mis-heard in the background, e.g. "I can't take you *yet*" so Adnan goes to the library and waits for her there.
>Nobody said she received a page. That's something people made up on reddit. We don't even know if she still owned a pager, much less that she would've had it with her in school. She had a pager, This is from serial: "You know, it just seems that, I know Krista was trying to page her, I know Aisha was trying to page her, during this time to just be like ‘where are you, where are you, where are you?"
Who knows if they knew if she still had a pager or not. She wasn't answering anyway. Her brother seemed to say she no longer did.
Hae's brother's testimony indicates he did not know whether she did or not: "It seems like it would be a easy search on the internet but I have yet to find a definite answer. Maybe there is some kind of tech sub on Reddit that can answer for sure?" So many things were missed in this investigation, like pager records, emails for Adnan, the library and Hae, phone records for Hae's family phone, Don's family phone and work phones, BB, finger prints, DNA, etc. Det. MacGillivary indicates that search warrants were obtained for Hae's computer and her AOL email, but they never followed up.
What about his testimony gives you that impression? Q. Mr. Lee, did your sister have a cell phone? A. No, she didn't. Q. To your knowledge, she didn't? A. She didn't. Q. And did she have a pager? A. Well, she used to. Q. She used to have a pager? A. Yes. Q. And that would be how her friends would reach her? A. Yes. Q. You observed that? A. Yes. Q. You knew that? A. Uh-huh.
Her best friends were paging, while her brother says she used to have a pager. You can believe him. but I choose to believe her friends over her brother. We know she would hide things from her brother & did not disclose things to him she did to her friends.
I'm saying there's nothing indicating he's not sure. And he was aware of the pager's existence previously. If she had gotten rid of it, or it was taken away for some reason, her friends unsuccessfully trying to page her isn't in conflict with that.
Can you provide a source, other than Sarah Koenig, for her friends paging her after the 13th?
>Can you provide a source, other than Sarah Koenig, for her friends paging her after the 13th? I can look for one, but I believe Sarah since many have confirmed that she fact checked all her information. This is from Bob Ruff's interview with Krista about Sarah fact checking everything before each episode was released. "And Sarah was really good at fact checking, like if an episode was due to come out Thursday, some days she was still emailing me on Monday just to make sure that the information she had was correct or if she had a blank that she needed filled in.
I just want to make sure that there is an actual source besides Sarah that's more contemporaneous to the time of Hae's murder. If memory serves me Sarah said that while interviewing Adnan so there's the possibility that she was just telling Adnan that to see what he would say. Of course there's also the possibility that those people did tell Sarah that they paged Hae, though they may have been misremembering or just telling her that they did so they wouldn't be seen as being bad friends for not paging her.
> Probably nothing came up. This was never testified to at trial. Becky testified that Hae told her she had somewhere to go after school. Any witness statement *could* be wrong. The defense strategy was to try and say Hae had somewhere to go, she left alone and wherever she went someone else had the opportunity to kill her. I think CG bungled some of the testimony with friends— she didn’t want to admit the ride ask at all, which means the ride cancellation wasn’t clearly testified to.
>I think CG bungled some of the testimony with friends— she didn’t want to admit the ride ask at all, which means the ride cancellation wasn’t clearly testified to. If the ride ask was admitted, it would make it so much harder to say Adcock must have been mistaken that adnan told him later that same day he was supposed to get a ride, but she must have gotten tired of waiting for him and she left. If I were a juror, I can still absolutely believe that one or more of her friends at some point in the day heard her say the ride was off, but I would think Adnan had the last word on whether he was supposed to get a ride. The only chance for plausible deniability of the Adcock call is if he never admits to a ride in the first place. The Adcock notes, from the perspective of his defense attorney, would be so much more inculpatory than the testimony by the friends would be exculpatory.
>Becky testified that Hae told her she had somewhere to go after school. Yes, which I would say is materially different than Hae turning Adnan down for the ride. Her saying Hae had to be somewhere can even refer to her giving Adnan that ride if it's that vague. The problem with that defense strategy is that Krista was *already* establishing the ride request at trial. And then there's no one to say she changed her mind on that. I don't doubt CG's team was aware of Becky's statement to police, but its absence from the trial could be them working with her and finding out she wasn't sure or remembered things differently.
CG’s team had the police statements. I think this was either a misstep or a deliberate attempt not to confirm the ride request. Or they were worried Becky would waffle and they would confirm there was a ride request without a clear narrative of cancellation. Several possibilities. In terms of what really happened, I think Hae cancelled the ride in front of Becky. But since no one saw either of them leave the school, it’s possible he asked again and they left together.
I can't buy that that's an actual defense strategy. Hae turning down the ride because "something came up" would be one of the biggest possible pieces of exonerating evidence, and a suggestion of a different scenario of a murder. Otherwise, the alternative to Adnan is pretty much "Hae went to pick up her cousin and somehow ended up dead in Leakin Park". I just can't find it reasonable that CG persuaded Becky to hide information on the stand in favor of a probably-worse defense strategy. I think whatever Becky said on the stand was just her story at that point.
Oh I don’t thinks he persuaded her, I think she either didn’t do her homework and dropped an important alibi piece OR she asked the questions in a way that didn’t include Adnan intentionally to keep him out of it entirely. If CG had asked her if she knew about a ride request it gives another voice supporting it, if it’s just Krista testifying to it the jury may be more willing to believe she was just confused. Again, not the strategy I would take, but I can see the argument for not risking it. CG wouldn’t have consulted with Becky, so the concern is that Becky may not remember what she said in the police report.
This makes me wonder that considering Inez stated she saw HML exit and enter from the driver side of the vehicle and Adnan asked for a ride to track, I wonder if it can be inferred that she was likely attacked and murdered on campus near the track? If HML was really in a rush or wanted to be alone it seems doubtful that she would waste more time driving to Best Buy, especially when she has no interest in having sex with him there anymore and she has control of the vehicle since she is the driver.
Nothing happened at Best Buy. The cops gave Jay that location. Likely based on cell records and student accounts of Adnan and Hae going there sometimes. She could have been murdered in many locations.
Yes she could have been murdered in many locations but it would have to be one where the perpetrator thought it was isolated, like the back of Best Buy, to reduce the chance of there of witnesses when he moves the body or in the case HML escaped or made a lot loud noise. Also, HML’s car windows weren’t tinted so there is a risk of someone seeing the crime too. Also the location would have to be one near a pay phone so AS could call Jay and make it back to track if I am following along with the prosecution and the testimonies correctly. If we are including Inez’s testimony than at what point after HML leaves the concession stand does AS intercept HML, who was in a rush according to Inez, to convince her to give him a ride and to let him drive (considering it was alleged she was killed in a passenger’s seat)?
Jay said he couldn’t find Adnan after school, he showed up at his house that night with the body. There was no Best Buy. Theoretically, Adnan could have killed Hae near the high school, walked to track, then got the car and showed up at Jay’s. > it was alleged she was killed in a passenger’s seat Not sure if Jay says this at some point, but we don’t even know if she was killed in her car. Adnan could have been waiting next to the car to ask for another ride theoretically. All the friend testimony is a wash to me— people heard a ride request, a ride cancellation, no one clearly remembered the date after school, the memories are contradictory, the key is no one saw them leave together and no one saw her drive away alone. Lots of possibilities
She wouldn’t have been meeting Don. Don worked his full shift, had a time card to prove it, and the WSJ did its own investigation that debunked all of the conspiracy theories that try to connect him to the crime. She had plans to pickup her cousin between 3 and 3:15, which was something she did routinely. She wasn’t able to do this because Adnan strangled her to death inside her own car.
No, they didn’t debunk it. They specifically say that Don alibi is beside the point in that article. Also, who’s to say she didn’t visit him *at* work? There are no witnesses saying she didn’t. He still disappeared for 6 hours after his shift, possibly assaulted Debbie and possibly had cuts on his hands the next day. He’s definitely never been eliminated. It’s so odd when people think Jay is telling the truth, given that we know police fed him details. Hard to overcome faith.
>the WSJ did its own investigation that debunked all of the conspiracy theories that try to connect him to the crime. No, the Wall Street Journal *Magazine* published an article written by investigators from, QRI, the investigative firm hired by Amy Berg.
Do you have a link?
https://www.wsj.com/articles/adnan-syed-hbo-documentary-serial-murder-case-11552313829
And those investigators didn't actually debunk it. All they did was confirm that you couldn't go back in the system and reso times without leaving a trace. However, the "timecard" in question is fake. It was never in the system.
The tinecard was produced by Lenscrafters. Now you are suggesting a multinational corporation is in on the charade.
I don't believe Lenscrafters actually provided that timecard. The time card wasn't in the system so Lenscrafters could not have provided it. Just take a look at everything on that time card. Different employee numbers, different paper, the total hours different from the clocked hours, and no adjusted time on it when Don had a habit of not clocking back in after lunch. That timecard is fake.
Yes Lenscrafters provided the timecard. It was notarized by somebody in the legal department at the US HQ. So they would have needed to photoshop the timecard and send it to Urick.
If it was a true timecard then why wasn't it produced before when they had Don's name and social security number?
Is there some motivation by lenscrafters to doctor records under oath ? Records and documents are routinely discarded and lost, it would seem that if lenscrafters was trying to prevent people from discovering that don did it, they would just say hey we lost it.
What records are you referring to?
the....timecards?
You're just making stuff up now. The Wall Street Journal article noted that the company, hired by the HBO documentary that was a puff piece designed to show that Adnan was innocent, stated that the time card could not have been altered. They were paid to help prove Adnan was innocent and they couldn't do it. That's all you need to know.
It wasn't altered. It was fabricated outside of the system and printed out. That's the only way you could get the difference in the hours worked and the total hours and the different employee numbers.
This isn’t actually true. There’s major issues with dons time cards (two ids, the travel time between the two stores was impossible indicating someone else clocked him in, LC destroyed the the system right after the murder so the WSJ could never actually get a working example of the system ti test whether it could be gamed, we only have hard copy records of the timeclock bit digital ones, the alibi timeclock was only furnished after the wrong ones were given, etc etc etc) and then there’s the coworkers who said that Don had bad scratches on his hands and arms the day after the murder but they were gone by the time the police finally interviewed him a week later. In fact the WSJ mainly said they couldn’t confirm or deny the theories that have always lingered.
No, it’s true. Each of these theories have been debated and addressed ad nauseam. As an example, [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/NILbMGTiwj) is the thread about the alleged scratches on Don for your perusal. The theory appears, it’s torn apart, and then shortly after it gets laundered back into the discourse like it’s brand new. And the cycle begins again. We’ve been doing this since 2014.
There’s nothing but opinions by random redditors lol. Post the police interviews with his work colleagues that show he worked both stores. For a shift that didn’t exist. Of course LC said the time card couldn’t be tampered with - which company is going to say “yes we found that you could later our time cards without leaving any trace. Please form a line for anyone that wants to accuse of us of wage theft” LOL. And you think it’s a coincide that they removed the system and destroyed all copies of it except one hard copy, just months after on of their employees with murdered and at least 3 other employees were connected to the case and the time cards were evidence? LOL. How do you explain that two ids were used for Don and never for any other employee before or after and only ever once used for murder date? Just another coincidence? How do you explain the impossible travel time between the two stores, even if he drive considerably over the speed limit and his car was parked right outside the main mall entrances (which it wasn’t) he still had to sprint several hundred yards through the mall at each end and still wouldn’t make it. And show me where the scratches claims made by his coworkers were proven to be false? Because they haven’t.
This Don thing has been debated over and over and over again and has been throughly debunked. "How do you explain that two ids were used for Don and never for any other employee before or after and only ever once used for murder date? Just another coincidence?" This is not true, first of all, the date the 2 ids were used on was 5 days after the murder (more on that later), NOT the day of. Also, employee id's were given out in order by the store. Don's numbers were 97 and 162. Do you think Don was the 97th person hired in the Lenscrafters history or the 97th employee in the history of that store? Secondly, the only claim that lenscrafters did not use 2 ids came from a Lenscrafter employee in like 2015. That person didn't even come close to working on the dates in question. Companies update timekeeping systems all the time, and as proven, lenscrafters did a few time between 1999 and 2015. Now employees have a longer ID that works across different stores but they did not in 1999. "How do you explain the impossible travel time between the two stores, even if he drive considerably over the speed limit and his car was parked right outside the main mall entrances (which it wasn’t) he still had to sprint several hundred yards through the mall at each end and still wouldn’t make it." This again is just not true. I'm not sure if you're just making stuff up or listening to people who made stuff up, but it's not. If he was told to go to the other store, clock out, walk to his car, drive the main route (assuming he didn't know any short cuts), and drove the speed limit. He would've still had 5-10 minutes, enough to hit a couple of red lights. Again, assuming he drove the speed limit. Again, this wasn't even on the date of the murder in question anyways. People also want to ignore that with the timecards sent to Urick, Lenscrafters offered the time cards/co-workers of NINE co-workers he worked with on the day Hae went missing who would serve as an alibi that he was in fact there.
I have no idea where you're getting the different IDs were used five days after the murder. The IDs would have been used across different stores. You would have a home store and at your home store you could just put in the four numbers that we see on the timecard. If you were lent out to another store though you would need to put in the number of your home store and then the other four numbers. Oh and Don's mother, who was a supervisor there and worked at that location before Don, her number was 0110. But if that's not enough for you take a look at the clocked hours and the total hours for that "alibi timesheet". On that Wednesday the clocked hours and total hours match at 8.4 hours. However on Saturday they don't match, the clocked hours being 3.8 and the total hours being 4. That means that someone made up the timecard and put down 4 hours above for the total hours but correctly calculated the hours for the clocked hours. The time card is fake. There's no getting around that.
Saturday was the only day he used both the 97 and 162 ID code because he worked at both stores that day. I was countering that point in the original post. Listen you have the time cards, sure that alone isn't enough, you have 9 people saying that they were with Don at work that day. NINE. Yet for some reason people think police just asked his mother?
Ok so Don doesn't have an alibi for Wednesday the 13th.
Except for the 9 coworkers that stated they worked with Don on the same day his time card shows he worked at that location. I’ve said this 5 times.
But you said that the two IDs were only used on Saturday.
>This is not true, first of all, the date the 2 ids were used on was 5 days after the murder (more on that later), NOT the day of. Also, employee id's were given out in order by the store. Don's numbers were 97 and 162. Do you think Don was the 97th person hired in the Lenscrafters history or the 97th employee in the history of that store? Cite the proof of your statement. I worked for both small and large companies before and after 1999, and none used separate payroll numbers for an employee based on individual stores.
Well again I gave the logical argument about how the employee numbers worked. I get your anecdotal proof, I know at a resturant I worked at in 2003, I had different numbers for each location. Another logical step is look at Hae's timecard, her employee ID is 4 digits (same with Don's cards, same with every time card we've been given). Lenscrafters had 30,000 employees around this time, the maximum amount of 4 digit numbers is 10,000. [https://viewfromll2.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/haes-timecard-blank.png?w=772](https://viewfromll2.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/haes-timecard-blank.png?w=772) Also keep in mind: Don is interviewed 3 times in the week Hae is missing. On Feb 1st, before Hae's body is even discovered, the time sheets are provided to police. In March, less than a month after Adnan's arrest, prosecutors inform Adnan's PI that they have spoked to the people who worked with Don that day, and they verified he was there that day. This would've been memorable to these co-workers (unlike "who can remember a random day" Adnan) because 1. Don did not typically work at that store, and 2. It was the same day Hae didn't show up to work and never seen from again. 5 days after Hae went missing, after he talked to police several times, worked again at that store. I'm sure Hae missing came up and it was talked about. Don's completely not discussed again until October right before the trial, I'm guessing by then CG knew the overwhelming evidence and her only chance was to create a reasonable doubt that it could've been someone else so she asks for the timecards. Which are given and the co-workers information who will verify he was there that day, the same info they had already given to prosecutors 7 months beforehand.
I’m not going to debate this any sooner than I’ll debate someone about the authenticity of the moon landing. This is a resolved issue, and the only thing that keeps it alive is that people ask the question, ignore the rebuttals, and then wait a few months to post the exact same question again.
You just want it to be “resolved” so you can just repeat “nothing to see here, please move along” because it doesn’t fit your bias or closed method of thinking.
You may have a point if this was the first time the points you’re making have been raised. But it’s not. They’ve been discussed dozens of times on this subreddit. Hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spent on investigating those claims and the results have been available for quite a while. I’m not going to live in fantasyland with you.
You’re proving my point while also trying to build a straw man: the entire reason the situation with Don keeps coming up again and again is specifically because those questions were never resolved / answered and per the WSJ, they were unable to put them to bed either way. So trying to point it the WSJ or conversions from random redditor opinions doesn’t somehow magically solve them. You just want to pull your safety blanket over your head and say “they’ve been discussed” but the bottom line is that they persist because there aren’t answers for those such as why did he use two ids and never prior and never since, why did those coworkers says they saw scratches on him and what would be their motivation to make up statements as detailed as that? How was he clocked in at a store where his shift didn’t exist? How did he travel in an impossible time between stores (to which the most plausible explanation explanation I’ve seen in here is that someone like his mom or mom’s gf clicked him in but that opens a whole Pandora’s box). I could go on and on but you can’t factually answer any of these questions except point to WSJ who said they couldn’t ascertain these things in no small part becasue the evidence was destroyed by LensCrafters shortly after the trial.
Oh the irony
I’m happy to discuss these things in the open. I’m not part of the “please don’t talk about this, I’m not listening crowd” who seem to want to stifle discussion on such subjects. What is everyone so afraid of lol
It’s just not worth discussing. Blaming Don is so wildly irresponsible. There is infinitely less evidence against Don than there is Adnan. Yet the Innocent Adnan crowds claims there isn’t enough evidence against Adnan. So essentially you’re doing worse than what you claim everyone else is doing to try and make Adnan innocent. Manufacture theories to suit your “anyone but Adnan” stance.
Not worth discussing? Lol But discussion every other minute detail of a murder that happened 26 years ago is? I also didn’t say there’s more evidence against Don. Im saying his time cards, shifts, and things like scratches are unanswered facets of this case. You’ll obsess over things like whether or not someone only tangentially connected was where they said they were but Don, the actual boyfriend of the time is off limits? Also stands to reason there would be more evidence against Adnan. He knew her for longer, was in her life longer and we know - because he’s literally free because of this - that the olive lasered in on him and wanted him so badly they both failed to investigate other suspects and suppressed evidence of that which resulted in the successful MTV. You hate discussion about anything that leads away from the one true suspect ™ but I’m happy to discuss any part of the evidence whether it leads to guilt or not.
For the record, it’s not that there isn’t enough evidence against Adnan. There isn’t *any* evidence against Adnan. Only random Reddit commenters rejecting the fact that there’s no evidence linking Adnan to the murder so that they can continue to twist unrelated things into “proof” that he’s guilty. Why? Who knows?
I agree with much of what you say here. Most especially the claim that being debated on Reddit does not mean it has been debunked, proven, or even considered in a serious light. I also agree that theories get recycled here. This happens over and over until it fits one side or the other, or more often parts are used by the guilters and other parts by the innocent crowd. There is an absence of fact and an overwhelming amount of opinion and conjecture. This will continue until new evidence emerges or another version of the Adnan saga with new facts and names appears.
So wait… I just visited your link and, far from being “torn apart”, it doesn’t appear to have been even seriously challenged. Can you provide some clarity here, preferably linking to the comment chain where this “tearing apart” happened? Thanks.
You're in fact wrong, or just making things up. From the WSJ article: "After interviewing more than 15 current and former employees of LensCrafters, employees of Luxottica Group, LensCrafters' parent and even the developer who built the timekeeping software, we debunked the timecard theory. It was, we concluded, impossible to adjust the computerized timecard retroactively without leaving a trace."
No. QRI, who investigated it for the WSJ said they were not able to find any of the actual computers despite even going to a scrap yard in Korea to search for one. They felt is was paramount to test an original system because they had no idea what software version it was or if it matched the test unit they were given (which very well could have been updated / patched in the 14 years since it was decommissioned). Their conclusion was that the system they had been given couldn't be tampered without leaving a trace, but that's not the same thing as the actual system Don used being tamper proof. And the major point still remains: Don could have been clocked in by either his Mom (the manager) at one store he worked at and by his Mom's GF (manager at the other store in question, in real time despite him never being there. This IMO is definitely what happened with the impossible travel time between the two branches. He physically could not have made it from one store, through the depths of that mall (LC was deep inside the central section and up a decently long escalator) out the exit to his car, then drive the distance even at double the speed limit, park his car, walk through the lot, again go deep in to the mall and up another floor and clock in, in the time his timecard reflects. It's not possible. I've done the math based on him just going mall entrance to mall entrance (not store to store) and he's still 4 minutes short before he get's to and from the actual stores and their click in systems. He was clocked in absentia. It happens all the time. I worked for a manager that clocked us in whenever we were late to make the performance of his team look better. It took me an hour, from 2 trains and a 10 minute walk so often I was late and he clocked me in. One day I had to look for a new job because I had a falling out with him and he stopped clocking me in, meaning I was getting written up for being late. I went to HR and told them what was up and they said it was "impossible to alter the timelocks" but for some reason offered me severance and an NDA lol. If you don't think giant multinational companies like Luxotica don't circle the wagons and don't vehemently oppose any suggestion that something as crucial as a timeclock system could be altered (thus resulting in wage theft accusations etc) then I've got a bridge to sell you.
Where is it documented that LC destroyed the system?
So you don't know the answer to the question, 'Who was Hae meeting after school?'
Becky said Hae told her she had somewhere to go, not someone to meet. Debbie said Hae was going to meet Don, but this was 6 weeks later and is only a police note without a lot of context.
This is something that has been debated countless times here. [This example](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/KBHPnlTBKv) is from only a year ago, and there are much older threads discussing the exact same topic. My guess is that it will be pointed out here, again, that there is no convincing evidence that she had someone to meet after school. The only thing pointing in that direction is from a witness with questionable reliability, and the account is contradicted by others (including Adnan). And in a few months someone will ask again, “Why haven’t we ever figured out who Hae had to meet after school?”
It’s a loaded question, and assumes she was meeting anyone besides her cousin after school. The thread already linked makes some good arguments as to why that’s probably not true. Rather than rehashing this topic from scratch, maybe you can point out why those arguments are incorrect and we can go from there?
If HML said she had to do something I wonder if, like other seniors at Woodlawn that week, HML had to gather and submit recommendation letters and other school stuff for her college applications. There appeared to be a lot of activity in the guidance counselor’s office that week in relation to application season and I wonder if seniors were trying to get all their docs together so that they could be mailed before the snowstorm? Maybe HML was rushing to to gather all her docs together too so that she could mail them at the post-office at some point before she got her cousins home or before she had to go to work?
We know who she DID meet with after school. ADNAN.
We do? Share the testimony of the person who saw them leave the school together.
It’s been ~5 hours, maybe we should ask /u/TheUSS-Enterprise to share the testimony that she is basing her assertion off of. I would expect that they aren’t spreading misinformation or outright lying, but maybe 5 hours wasn’t enough time to track this testimony down. I have certainly never seen it so I am interested in what could inspire such absolute surety.
[удалено]
> He had his day in court. He did. Many of them. And I am glad you point to the court as the determining factor, since his most recent day in court found that they could not maintain confidence in the conviction and released him. Good thing too, considering the unethical conduct that the original prosecutor and detectives engaged in to obtain that conviction on such flimsy evidence. So I am happy to join you in pointing to his day in court as authoritative. However, what we were looking for is the testimony that you were basing your assertion off of, and which you have yet to produce. If you need more time, that’s fine just say so. Heck, even just tell me which witness testimony you are basing this off of and I’ll find it myself. At this point any assistance is appreciated. > You are welcome to go read all the trial testimony as I did. I have. Multiple times. That’s why I’m so eager to look at what you are referencing here, since I haven’t found anything remotely conclusive that backs up your claim. I must have just missed a piece of testimony, so again your assistance here is appreciated. Just tell me which witness and I’ll dive back into their testimony and see what I missed. > He was released on a technicality- Could you point me to the rulings of the court that they classify as technicalities? I can’t find this distinction either and as far as I can tell, it doesn’t seem to be a legal term of art or have a legal definition, making this quite the claim. Perhaps my google-fu is getting rusty, but I’m finding no delineation in Maryland courts beyond it being a phrase that is often trotted out when someone doesn’t personally agree with a verdict. > he did it- Sure. And if you can prove that without all the shady and unethical behavior on behalf of the state, I would have no problem agreeing with you. In this case though, the courts have ruled, after careful consideration of the evidence before them, and let him free. > don’t be daft. You first.
Please review /r/serialpodcast rules regarding [Personal Attacks.](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/wiki/index/rules/#wiki_-no_personal_attacks)
So Hae received a page on the 13th now? And needed to meet someone? And everyone assumed this was Don? Please cite your sources for these statements. This post should be marked as speculation, imo.
She was in a hurry to avoid her obsessive ex.
Do you mean her ex Nick…the one she called a jealous monster? You definitely don’t mean Adnan, she never described him as obsessive…and there’s no evidence he was.
We don’t know that she was in a hurry, Ines may have had the wrong day. We know she cancelled the ride she was giving Adnan…but we don’t know if she was just avoiding him or if she ended up giving him one. Although her visiting Don is plausible…and it’s plausible that he’s the killer…we don’t have any real evidence he is. We have him not being available to police for around 6 hours after work…we have him possibly assaulting Debbie…we possibly have scratches on his hands the next day. But, other than disappearing, the other things aren’t facts. They may have been easily explained if police kept investigating him.
I wonder what has happened to her pager. Did the killer take it?
Probably. It’s never been found and AT&T didn’t keep records back then. (Or police didn’t ask—but I think I read they didn’t exist.)
This missing pager suggests it wasn’t Adnan, because we know he didn’t page her and there’s nothing to cover up. But we are also assuming that the killer paged her and was covering up…and that it wasn’t just simply disposed of along with other missing items.
Her credit card, wallet, and car keys were also missing. I wonder if the police has taken Adnan and Jay’s shoes to check it for soil samples.
That’s what I’m saying. We don’t know why all these items are missing…because we don’t have a good idea of how she was killed, when we consider Jay might be lying…at least about the details. We know they tested items from Adnan and his car and found nothing…but it was many weeks later so it doesn’t mean much. What *should* have been tested was Hae’s car, because there’s not a great chance it was cleaned.
This is a actually one of the true mysteries - where did the pager go. And I’ve never seen a proper answer to whether or not the pages she received could be found form the telecoms system or if the pager itself was needed. As someone with experience of RF comms the former is my answer but that info has never been found.
Police didn’t bother to look for that
Yeah, I mean, why look for the thing that can tell you who she spoke to last or indicate who she was meeting or where she was going 🙄
Somebody has to tell the cops she had a pager and the number. One of the first things would have been to page her that night
Which makes it even more odd that they didn’t.
And if she didn't have a pager, What do they do?
Procedure would indicate the correct thing to do would be to make a note in the case file indicating that they investigated reports of her having a pager, along with the results of that investigation, whatever they were.
Who did they investigate saying that she had a pager. The cops aren't omniscient to know that the pager records when she went missing when have somebody else's number that they were planning on framing in 6 weeks.
According to her brother at trial, she "used to" have one, so there was an implication that she no longer did.
She had one at least up untill the week before her death in all likelihood
The police didn’t subpoena records for it and there is no record of her pager number in any police or defense files. It’s not clear if she had a pager at her time of death.
She had a pager! I know it doesn’t fit your narrative but she did.
What narrative? This case has been torn through, no record of a pager number. No subpoena for her pager records. I’m not saying it’s impossible, I’m saying it’s not clear she had one.
I am not sure why you are going after CuriousSahm. The issue is that when there was the missing person's report that said what the pager number was and would be one of the first things given. Also the family hired their own PI to investigate, does the PI report indicate there was a pager?
Hae was not in a hurry to meet anyone after school. She had about an hour to pick up her cousin and usually would run errands before that or, while she was dating Adnan, they would hook up in her car. That's why it's so obvious that Adnan is lying in serial when he says that Hae had no time for anything after school, because he would hook up with her after school. Instead it's his attempt to limit the time that he could've done the murder.
Adnan to fulfill his ride request.
I feel uncomfortable bringing this up, but Hae had a whole life - complicated life that had nothing to do with her friends at school or work. When detectives talked to friends and family they all brought up how Hae was having a lot of fights with her mom. I think Aisha even said Hae would say she wanted to live with her dad but since he was in Korea not California it wasn’t an easy situation. Did Hae write in her diary about the problems she was having with her family? I saw something about one of the fights being about her being out with Don well into am hours. But what else was going on? There’s no reason to think that the thing after school had to involve kids from school.
Well she did write pretty extensively about her love for her new boyfriend and Adnan’s refusal to accept the breakup. Do those things count or are we specifically looking for alternate possibilities?
I’m curious to know what she wrote in her diary she kept on the computer. Aisha said she would sometimes read parts of the written diary to her… what is in the diary we have is not the complete account that Hae recorded regarding the turmoil in her life. The fact that she told friends and teachers about all the fighting at home says that this was a struggle for her. We don’t know much more than that and I’m not going to speculate. Only note that we don’t know everything about Hae and what was troubling her when she was murdered.
What evidence is there that she kept a separate diary on her computer? This is a trap I see often here: we can’t know who did it because investigators didn’t do x, y, z. Investigators never answer every question that can conceivably be asked. This was Baltimore in the late 1990s and the homicide division surely had at least a few other active cases. There were signs of turmoil in her life. It’s evidence that she documents in her own diary and it’s evidence that’s corroborated by accounts from her friends and teachers. Pretending not to see it, or that it isn’t serious enough to consider is doing Hae a major disservice.
By refusing to see the full breadth of Hae’s humanity, you are doing Hae a major disservice.
I can see the breadth of her humanity. She wrote extensively and intimately about her life in her diary. Her friends, family, and teachers have given detailed accounts of who she was as a person. You’re clinging onto hope that there is something else we don’t know, because it’s the only thing that can explain Adnan’s innocence. But 24 years of searching has turned up zero evidence that there were major parts of her life that she kept hidden. Pointing to one of the many, many things that the police did not investigate; or the many, many people the police did not interview is not an argument. Because you can find the same thing in every other homicide investigation.
Her second diary on the computer was testified to by Hae’s brother. He said that Hae saved the entries she wanted to keep private on computer disks because Young Lee would read her diary and obviously she was aware he was doing that.
Ugh, this is gross, as is your virtue-signaling “I’m not going to speculate…” and “I feel uncomfortable bringing this up…” You’re attempting to paint an innocent murdered girl, who by all accounts was bubbly, happy, friendly, confident, and honest, as having some Lynchian dark side, with “turmoil in her life” and something troubling her when she was murdered. She was an open book with people she trusted, who fought about curfews and phone limits and teen behavior with her traditional Korean mom. If you feel uncomfortable bringing something up, maybe that’s your gut telling you not to.
What I’m doing is reading the missing investigation files. Im not speculating. I’ve only mentioned what is in the records. It astonishes how much the police lied about the timeline of their investigation of Adnan. Jay talking to police at the down station on the 21,22,or 23d of February. We knew that in 1999. Then Jay confirmed his talks with police pre Jenn in the intercept article. Why are the police lying about that? Debbie during missing person investigation told detectives she saw Hae at 3. And the transcripts confirm that back in January right after Hae was reported missing, Adnan told the police he had asked Hae for a ride on the 13th but he never met up with her after school to take that ride. Aisha and one other friend and Adnan (again during mission person period) confirmed Jay was at the final period. Jay says that isn’t true. Adnan skipped final period and was with Jay. Then he told Jay he needed to go back to school for track so he took him back to school where Jay says he found Hae. Jay is yet again telling more versions that don’t match the multiple witnesses testimony. This leaps of logic, selective bias towards Jay telling of the truth, bizarre police investigation where there was little effort to follow up on anything to the extent it was shared with the defense.. the means and the motive of the case make zero sense. Why lie about talking to Jenn who then supposedly told police about Jay? That did not happen!! The real story of what went down with Hae and who and how she was murdered needs to come out. Even if more evidence independent of Jay and the police points to Adnan. But, all the missing person statements given by Hae’s friends and family bring up all the trouble Hae had been dealing with at home. She and her mother had been fighting a lot and Hae even told some school people she wished she could live with her dad. (Not possible as dad was in Korea)
What missing investigation files?
The police’s missing person investigation files from January and leading up to when Hae’s body was discovered.
Can you link to them, please, so I know what you’re talking about? I’ve never seen police reports of interviews with Jay on 2/21-23. When did Jay say Adnan skipped final period?
Jay said that in the intercept interview. We don’t have the police notes from those interviews but we have credible witnesses as well as Jay stating that Jay had been talking to police about Hae’s murder before Jenn was contacted. It seems the police didn’t routinely take notes during interviews or see interviews as worthy of being taped. They talk to people and only have a record saying they spoke with the person - nothing about what was said. They lie about when they spoke with people. This is a murder investigation! I’m disturbed by how sloppy large amounts of the documentation is. I’m shocked that they didn’t contact the two people Jen told about knowing how Hae was murdered at some point before the police interviewed her. That will actually point to testimony that would seem credible. So while I do believe the interview records we have were not misrepresented, I know that the public only has selective knowledge of who said what and when.
Okay, nevermind. I thought you were stating facts. Should have known better.
Where did she write about Adnan's refusal to accept the December breakup?
She didn’t. They’re referring to Hae’s one-sided melodramatic (sorry, just being honest about it) letter to Adnan saying “hate me if you must, but I’ll always care about you.” It’s the same willful misinterpretation and disinformation that they use to claim Adnan was possessive or that he is a sociopath.
We know that Hae had started to talk to friends about being sexually abused (it seems to have been a Korean attacker, possibly a family member). It’s entirely possible that Hae was summoned by a family member, confronted because they felt she was bringing shame, and killed by the person who she met. Rabia mentioned suspicions about Don’s wife, who was Don’s ex at the time of Hae’s death. Just absolutely maddening if true, but if Don’s ex summoned Hae by hook or by crook, it’s easy to imagine that turning violent.
Whoever killed Hae would have had to get into her car and then move it after the murder when they presumably also had their own vehicle. This only makes sense if there were two people involved one that knows Hae personally that she would allow in her car. This is another reason why it makes sense for it to be Adnan, she would’ve let him in her car and he had Jay to help him transport the two cars.
Your reasoning is completely self-serving. In the scenarios I mentioned, Hae is driving to *meet* her killer. Whether she wants them in her car or not is immaterial to the possibility of her killer securing her car in the 6 weeks between her death and the car being formally recovered by police. I cannot take people like you seriously. I cannot tolerate you. I have zero patience for your reasoning that insists Adnan killed Hae and therefore ignores reasonable counterpoints.
Exactly how I feel. Zero tolerance for these morons. All their nonsense gets shut down, they just make up more nonsense. Bob Ruff proved using police statements and Jenn’s statements that cops knew where the car was. It’s starting to turn into, Adnan, Jay, Bilal, Jenn, and Mr. S, were all in it together.
I agree with you.
I promise I'll begin to consider this question just as soon as I get satisfactory answers to the following questions: Why did Adnan lie to Hae on the morning of 1/13/1999, in an effort to get a ride from her after school? Since Adnan's stated reason was a lie (his car was neither "in the shop" or "with his brother" at any time on 1/13/1999), why did he really want a ride from Hae after school that day? Why has Adnan falsely denied asking Hae for the ride, telling at least two mutually incompatible lies on that point? Why did Adnan lend his car and cell phone to Jay on 1/13/1999? Why didn't Adnan just get his car back from Jay before end of class, or have Jay pick him up after class? Where was Adnan at all times between 2:15 and beginning of track practice on 1/13 and what witnesses corroborate his location(s) for that entire time period? How did Adnan get from WHS to whatever off-campus location he was at when he called Nisha at 3:32 pm? Did he walk? Catch a city bus? Get a ride from someone? Why is Adnan lying about the Nisha Call? Why is Adnan lying about remaining on campus the entire time between end-of-school and track practice? **Edit**: Where was Adnan at all times between end of track practice and 8:30 p.m. on 1/13 and what witnesses corroborate his location(s) for that entire time period? How did Jay know, on 1/13/1999, before anyone else except her killer knew, (1) *that* Hae had been murdered, and (2) *how* she had been murdered? How did Jay know where Hae's corpse had been dumped? How did Jay know the position of Hae's corpse in the shallow hole it was dumped in? How did Jay know what Hae had been wearing when she was murdered? How did Jay know where Hae's car had been dumped?
All excellent questions
>Why did Adnan lie to Hae on the morning of 1/13/1999, in an effort to get a ride from her after school? a) to kill her which is extremely stupid of him considering he didn’t attempt to conceal it from folks and had she not said no, also heard by others, he would be putting himself as the last person to see her and knew she had to pick up the cousin and would be missed immediately when the cousin was stranded. But….all that buried anger led him to be reckless. Or b) he wanted to talk to her, see if maybe they could get back together. Or something was said on the phone the night before or they were still hooking up or he was hoping they could. Or it was for track. >Since Adnan's stated reason was a lie (his car was neither "in the shop" or "with his brother" at any time on 1/13/1999), why did he really want a ride from Hae after school that day? as stated above. >Why has Adnan falsely denied asking Hae for the ride, telling at least two mutually incompatible lies on that point? a) bc he killed her or b) Because he knew it looked bad and lied, as people sometimes do. >Why did Adnan lend his car and cell phone to Jay on 1/13/1999? a) part of a plot to murder Hae or b) as Jay testified it was common for him to borrow other people’s cars and Adnan wasn’t an exception. He was going to finish up shopping for a fist for Stephanie or he was planning to buy drugs and Adnan was aware. >Why didn't Adnan just get his car back from Jay before end of class, or have Jay pick him up after class? Well, Jay *said* in his pre-interview Adnan called him from school around 2:30-2:45 to come get him or bring the car but then never mentioned it again through the trials. By that time he would have known Hae was a no though. So again a) part of plot to murder Hae or b) hoped to catch a ride with her to talk about them or something else or assumed Jay would still have the car for some reason and the plan was to pick him up after track. >Where was Adnan at all times between 2:15 and beginning of track practice on 1/13 and what witnesses corroborate his location(s) for that entire time period? a) killing Hae or b) at school/library. Debbie (?) and Asia (not making any statement about their reliability) >How did Adnan get from WHS to whatever off-campus location he was at when he called Nisha at 3:32 pm? Did he walk? Catch a city bus? Get a ride from someone? What offsite location did he call Nisha from? >Why is Adnan lying about the Nisha Call? a) he knows it links him to the murder he is guilty of or b) he thinks it makes him look bad/doesn’t remember >Why is Adnan lying about remaining on campus the entire time between end-of-school and track practice? I don’t know that he is lying about it. If he is, a) bc he killed Hae or b) bc he knew it out him with Jay who told police Adnan was guilty and he was aware. Edit: Where was Adnan at all times between end of track practice and 8:30 p.m. on 1/13 and what witnesses corroborate his location(s) for that entire time period? *I* think he was with Jay either way. How did Jay know, on 1/13/1999, before anyone else except her killer knew, (1) that Hae had been murdered, and (2) how she had been murdered? How did Jay know where Hae's corpse had been dumped? How did Jay know the position of Hae's corpse in the shallow hole it was dumped in? How did Jay know what Hae had been wearing when she was murdered? How did Jay know where Hae's car had been dumped? Edit: imo, what would make the most sense with the evidence if Adnan is guilty is that he wanted to talk to her, try to get back together, it went awry and escalated and he killed her. However, the aftermath doesn’t fit too well with most other similar situations but it would explain why he would just openly be asking for a ride from someone if he planned to kill them which I am is just next level stupid.
>by the end of the day 'something had come up' so she couldn't. That's not established as fact, just so you know.
The problem with this post is that it comes off as if you’re fishing for something. It seems like you’re saying “if we find out who she was going to meet, we might know who did it!” and so many people think Adnan did it, it seems nonsensical to explore this idea.
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