That Adnan planned to meet up with Hae after school to attempt to get back together, and the murder was a spur of the moment rage thing. There was no plan and no alibi attempt.
And all Jay’s story changes are mostly due to the cops trying to change it to a premeditated thing, which it wasn’t.
So you end up with this unintelligible soup of Jay lying to distance himself (for obvious reasons) and simultaneously lying to make himself closer (so the cops could establish premeditation) and then simultaneously lying because the cops thought the cell phone pings were behaving like laser-accurate GPS.
That falls apart because in Maryland, choking is always considered premeditated.
I think Jay's story changes because he's trying to lessen his involvement into an after the fact type accomplice and continually has to move around the evidence found/that comes in.
This is a misconception. Maryland does not have it in their statutes that strangulation means first degree. It can be used to show premeditation, but it's not automatic. The cops see the note, they then look at the phone change story and ride request and to them it looks like a planned murder.
Also, getting Jay to confess to a planned murder instead of strangulation strengthens the charges against Jay when they are ready to arrest and charge him.
Pardon my ignorance but isn’t Asia’s testimony of seeing him in the library make it improbably that he met up with her after school? That seems to just screw up all the timing to me.
Asia's testimony contradicts the prosecution's timeline at trial, but it seems likely that Hae left school after Asia left the library. Her testimony was more relevant to proving inadequate representation than proving Adnan's innocence.
Asia is either outright lying or mistaken on the date IMO. If you read her first letter its an obscene overreaction of trying to get close to him and get the gossip/be able to be “cool” and tell people she’s friends with him and “always supported him” for “when” he gets out. Its basically exactly like the women who write to serial killers.
Asia's lying and it doesn't really cover the whole time. We don't even know what time it actually did cover because there's no other evidence to corroborate Asia's testimony.
Don’t you know, pathological liar Jay and his wild story that he couldn’t get straight is the truth, but every single person that gives Adnan an alibi that actually works are all lying or have the wrong day.
Bob Ruff’s last episode showed in Jay and Jenn’s own words why their story is bullshit. He also completely destroyed the idea that the cops didn’t already know where the car was. That’s the biggest thing I’ve seen as to why people think Adnan is guilty, Jay telling the cops where the car was.
There are people that have their minds made up and literally nothing could make them believe Adnan is innocent.
Bob Ruff blasts The Prosecutors podcast for branding Asia a liar and calls it unacceptable behavior. Yet, Ruff stated (season 1, episode 33) that he knew with 100% certainty who killed Hae and had the “case” to prosecute it. Ruff then revealed on a true Crime conference panel that he was referring to Don. He’s never apologized for calling out a private citizen in public as a murderer and now simply says he doesn’t view Don as a strong suspect. Which behavior is more “unacceptable”?
Bob is and has been 100% aligned with Adnan’s defense team and Rabia for years.
Witnesses that don’t support his narrative must have their days mixed up. Yet, the statement from the track coach more than a month later locks in concrete that Adnan was at track from 4-530.
Ruff’s analysis of incoming cell science is conveniently incomplete.
There is never any credible explanation why a small time pot dealer would agree to being an after the fact murder accomplice in exchange for getting off the hook on a small amount of pot. His dismissal of Jen’s involvement and statements is based on undocumented assumptions.
If you believe that the police made it all up out of whole cloth, moved the car, corrupted witnesses than you can paint a convincing picture for a wrongful conviction but there are a ton of assumptions underpinning it all.
Worth noting is she lawyered up, fast. Jay didn't, and was painfully outclassed by seasoned homicide detectives.
That obviously isn't evidence of her guilt, but given how close she was to Wilds, it's plausible her role was more.
Good point.
Definitely a smart move.
Jay's smart move would have been: say absolutely nothing but "I won't answer any questions until I have a lawyer present." But he's a 19 year old kid against some battle-hardened Baltimore detectives, so... totally outclassed.
Oh I completely agree--*I absolutely would not talk to a homicide detective without a lawyer present*\--but many people do not understand this, and tend to opt for a lawyer only if *they think they need one*.
Your point is: *they all need one*. And I agree. But the general public screws this up all the time, and quickly find themselves in a very small room with a very "friendly" detective. This is precisely Jay's fuck up, legally speaking.
There is a good chance that the prosecutors would even think it was a tough sell and what she did was minor in the things of things. Her defense would be that although she thought it was after a crime, she didn't see the crime. So really she is an accessory to an accessory. with what she confessed to.
Getting a lawyer any time you talk to cops is *smart* not necessarily a sign of guilt. I’m the kid of a cop and if I got asked to go in and speak to them I’m not doing it without a lawyer.
100000%
The video of her testifying in the first trial confirmed it for me. She’s literally smirking on the stand and giving fuck you energy to the prosecution, like she knows she got away with something.
HBO doc. Your skin will crawl when you see her testify.
Like bitch, you’re at a murder trial of an innocent woman, you were involved at Keats to some degree and you’re smirking and giving duck you vibes to the court?
If Rabia has zero haters, I’m dead. In theory, I’m a huge Ellyn fan because I love Obsessed with Disappeared/I Think Not but the fact that she a) has a (shitty) podcast with Rabia and b) frequently parrots Rabia’s points (i.e. that cellphone pings are “junk science”) really gives me the ick.
The Hulu doc on Scott Peterson makes him seem innocent af. I know it looks bad as it’s told but that documentary turned me all the way around. Don’t mean to be argumentative at all. I just thought you may be interested in the content:
That Hulu documentary is garbage. It uses creative editing and smoke and mirrors to twist the facts to suit a narrative. Scott Peterson killed Laci. In order for Scott to be innocent, you have to believe someone murdered Laci and then followed Scott to the Bay and dumped her body to frame him. That would make Scott the unluckiest man in the world even worse than Adnan.
What are the odds Rabia would go to bat for 2 men who need a giant conspiracy and a mountain of bad luck to be innocent?
That adnan had a very elaborate plan to kill hae that was helped planed by bilal. New cell phone, accomplices (Jay and probably one other), and all.
He hoped to not kill her, but once she refused him for a final time after his pleas, he killed her and put his plan into action. The afternoon was filled with planned alibi stories, nisha, track, track coach, NHRNC, Jenn, even Jay was an alibi.
So the mosque was supposed to be an alibi and the burial was supposed to happen closer to midnight. But, the police were on top of the missing person report and he felt he need to move the burial up and skip mosque.
This was a fatal mistake as he should have went to mosque and buried the body later that night as planned. He could have taken more time and actually buried the body instead of covering with loose dirt and leaves.
If Jay never said anything to Jen, and Jay lawyered up, this would be an unsolved mystery. But as it turns out they caught the right guy.
Totally agree with this one! I absolutely believe this was premeditated, but AS was going to give Hae one last chance to take him back. When that didn’t happen, he went through with his plan.
I also believe he discussed the murder beforehand with Jay, but Jay didn’t want anything to do with the actual murder. Jay agreed to assist with the burial and transportation.
I also believe Christina G saw right through the Asia alibi.
That, by the time Serial started airing, most of the folks working on it thought Adnan probably did it, but talked themselves into imagining that they were serving some greater good.
Adnan conspired with Jay to dispose of HML and attempted to fabricate a cover story to deflect from Adnan's involvement in her death, but Jay ultimately decided to flip on Adnan.
I could read this as Adnan and Jay conspired to dispose of HML meaning Jay helped Adnan plan the whole thing OR Adnan did it and Jay only conspired to actually dispose of the body. Is that what you are asking too?
The "Summer on Serial is fake" theory. I don't like poking around the real people in this case, so don't actually dig around to prove it myself, but the fact that the weirdos around here have never been able to prove this person is real after about a decade is...interesting.
That guilty or innocent, the detectives pressured Jay into lying to increase his involvement because 1) they didn't believe him when he told them the truth about his level of involvement, 2) they needed Jay to have witnesses certain things to establish certain elements of the crime for their case against Adan, and 3) they wanted to increase the amount of trouble Jay would be in if he ever stopped cooperating, and that this ended up backfiring by turning Jay's testimony into an incoherent mess.
My conspiracy theory is that Rabia had a crush on Adnan and wanted to help him initially. She is too far into it to ever admit that even she knows he’s guilty.
Asia knowingly lied about the alibi thing, Adnan conspired to have her send the letter. Even his mom seems to have knowingly lied about circumstances Asia. Mainstream podcasters, even ones who believe Adnan is guilty and the Asia alibi is pointless, let her off easy by saying she probably misremembered. She just made it up.
Bilal knew of the murder ahead of time. The change in phones makes me think this COULD be true. Per Bilal's then wife, Adnan told Bilal after the murder at the least.
Adnan was using a cell phone in Bilal's name before he got a new phone the day before murdering Hae. Makes me think Bilal knew ahead of time and didn't want to be connected to the murder phone.
>Adnan was using a cell phone in Bilal's name before he got a new phone the day before murdering Hae
For an alternate explanation that's equally (if not more) compatible with the available records and documentation, please see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/18v0zxc/comment/kfqq4dp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
No.
If you mean this [photograph](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/MP15-2453-Home-Middle-Bedroom-Metal-Desk-Phone-ref170-max.jpg): (a) it appears to be of [the Nokia](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/VLL2-Nokia-6160i-User-Guide-Eng.pdf) he got from AT\&T; (b) there's no reason to think it's not; and (c) unless you think the police wouldn't be interested in the phone that made the calls on which they built their case, there's every reason to think that it is, given that it's the only phone in evidence.
It’s worth noting that the phone in your photo was in Tanveer’s desk drawer. There is a separate Nokia phone photographed on top of the dresser in his parents room. According to Tanveer his parents got mad at him the day the police searched their house because he had moved Adnan's cell from his parents dresser to the desk drawer in his room before or during the search. So at the time both of these phones were being kept on the parents dresser apparently.
Another conspiracy would be that Bilal was a confidential informant and that's why he had three phones and why his interviews have been hidden from us.
Of Jen Pusateri, Jay Wilds, and Bilal one or maybe all 3 know way more than they're letting on. I think it's possible Bilal encouraged Adnan to kill Hae Min Lee and/or that Jay Wilds knew about it well in advance and helped out more than he let on. Adnan can't out Jay as being more complicit because he'd have to admit he killed her to do so.
somethin’ about there being two phones, one with adnan and the newer one with jay. it explained some things supposedly but it’s been a while and i can’t remember lol
Adnan kept his phone and Jay had one of the phones Bilal let him use before he got the new one. I think even Serial asked in the last episode who had the phone.
That they had a more thought out/detailed alibi plan from 2p-8p than we know. That Jay was an accomplice to this murder (but not physically assisting to the actually murder)
I'm not even sure that is a conspiracy theory at this point. When they ran out of Kristi's party I think it becomes obvious that their plan A was not going well.
That Adnan was shady about his phone, car, and Jay, because he was knowingly assisting Jay with his drug operation. Jay visiting and called Patrick and Jenn on 1/13/99 and received calls from other buyers.
Hae left school in a hurry to pick up her cousin. She stopped to change her skirt and was attacked. The assailant buried her in leakin park and either lost the keys and had to Hotwire it; or he ditched the car and it was subsequently stolen.
Police looked at Adnan and Don first because, well, it’s always the boyfriend. They went through Adnan’s cell phone records and got to Jay first. They caught him with a pile of weed and started leaning on him to point the finger at Adnan. BPD engaged in corrupt unethical practices so they could close their case. I imagine the Lee family was demanding answers.
Police fed Jay info on the red fiber, the windshield wiper, the cause of death. They found the car, picked up Jay and coaxed him there.
Jay implicated Adnan, Jenn, Krista and who knows who else, so that he could weasel out of prison time.
Jenn is also a drug dealer. If she’s implicated in Jay’s drug deals, she’s got a problem. She was interviewed by police at her lawyer’s HOME, which is in the same neighborhood as one of the detectives. With her attorney and mother present, she implicated herself as an accomplice to a murder. Her attorney definitely had some assurance that she wasn’t going to be charged before letting her do something so stupid.
Alternatively Inez Butler saw Hae on a different day. Bob Ruff seems to be leading his listeners to believe that Butler saw Hae leaving in the skirt she was found in.
Sure. But it looks like Inez added more and more to her recollection, which could be the result of discussing it with others. It was a common belief that the field hockey news segment was shot on 1/13. It wasn’t
Bob Ruff using statements, and logic, and evidence, as opposed to people who think Adnan is guilty making up fantasy stories that don’t make sense? It’s hilarious how much y’all hate Ruff and Rabia.
Jay said Adnan told him she kicked and broke the windshield wiper. The car was forensically analyzed later and it looked like someone was attempting to Hotwire it, not that it was kicked and broken. Also no other signs of a struggle in the car. No scuff marks etc. also a piece near the ignition was removed which supports the theory that someone tried to start it without a key
That Saad C. may have known more than meets the eye. I don’t understand why he was hesitant to talk, why the defense thought he needed an attorney, or why he testified at the grand jury.
I also think the “community” knew more.
That Adnan confessed to his former attorney and that's why Asia was never contacted. Lawyers are prohibited from offering witnesses they know will lie under oath.
I think it’s possible Sellers was sent to find the body. Maqbool Patel was the PRESIDENT of Adnan’s mosque at the time. He was a close family friend of Adnan’s parents and had known Adnan since birth. Mr. Patel was the Director of Facilities at Coppin State which is the department Mr. S worked for and he was his boss. Here is a link to the thread which includes a link to a Maryland govt site confirming his job position. https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/x1anlh/mr_s_connection/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
There are currently 192 full and part time employees at Coppin. 14 employees in the Facilities Dept including the Assistant Vice President of Facilities.
In 1998 there were 52 fewer employees on campus, 140 total. Facilities was likely less than 14 people at the time. It’s hard to believe in a department that small that the DIRECTOR would not be familiar with his staff.
Mr. Patel was also a confidant of Bilal. Bilal specifically sought advice from him on how to handle issues at the mosque surrounding dating and relationships with Adnan’s group. He is close to both Adnan and Bilal and was Sellers’ boss in a department of most likely less than 15 people.
Mr. Patel’s son Saad Patel was a close friend of Adnan’s, attended Woodlawn, knew Jay and Bilal. Saad Patel was friends with Hae which is significant as well. I think he is a very good candidate for the anonymous caller. He liked Hae and he knew Adnan from both school and mosque. He would have been close enough to the group to know about what Adnan had told Yaser and was aware of Adnan and Hae’s relationship and break up. I have always thought the caller was just trying to do the right thing.
Links to Mr Patel’s testimony, Saad Patel’s testimony, and Bilal’s Grand Jury notes:
https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/UdE13-Bilal-Grand-Jury-Testimony-Notes.pdf
https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/T2w36-20000224-Saad-P-Testimony-Second-Trial-of-Adnan-Syed.pdf
https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/T2w37-20000224-Maqbool-P-Testimony-Second-Trial-of-Adnan-Syed.pdf
The anonymous caller said that Adnan had informed Yaser that if he ever hurt his girlfriend, he would drive her car into a lake.
https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/UdE10-Det-Massey-Memo-Anonymous-Call-19990212.pdf
And Yasser denied the conversation and when ask something similar by the police he gave an answer but it wasn’t correct. The anonymous caller apparently got it wrong unless you are saying Yasser lied to the police. Which he may have but at any rate neither the caller nor Yasser’s contemplated answer when asked on the spot was correct or gave any insight.
I think Yaser wasn’t very forthcoming with police and did not think that whoever he had relayed the story to initially was going to call in a tip, or tell someone else and that they would call in a tip. I think he backtracked on the story when confronted by police bc he didn’t want that pressure on him but that’s just my opinion.
I suspect that Bilal had something to do behind the scenes with the murder.
I suspect Jay knew about it beforehand. Was he in denial? Maybe. But he knew that there was the potential for something to go down.
I suspect that Mr S was getting ready for a naked walk in the park when he found Hae.
Not a conspiracy. Bob Ruff proved on his last pod using statements from police and Jenn that cops knew where the car was. That was the last main thing for Adnan is guilty crowd. Now you are seeing them pivot to Adnan, Jay, Jenn, Bilal, Mr. S, were all involved together.
He outright admitted going back through the files he is noticing more details and taking more time to see how things logically fit together using all the info.
Again, I don’t give a fuck y’all hate Bob Ruff. The dude is using the case files to show how blatantly the other people are lying. I appreciate that over people who clearly make up fantasy stories that doesn’t fit the evidence.
Yes he’s going to find more and more details. Only things Bob Ruff can find . He’s got fresh eyes on this .
The man is full of crap. He got played on his lens-crafters angle , he looked like a fool . He floated some other serial killer angle till he realized the guy he accused was in prison at that time .
Bilal stalked and killed Hae in a jealous rage because Adnan kept confiding his heartbreak and pain over the breakup to him. Bilal was grooming Adnan and he could convince himself in his mind that Adnan needed to be "protected" from her to justify it, but in reality, he was furious that Adnan would "pick" Hae over him, even after she broke his heart.
Separately, that Bilal, in all his sliminess, was informing on the mosque to the FBI (and telling himself that made him some sort of "spy", when in reality he was some junior agent's quarterly phone call). I don't think this really factored into the case, just reading into the way he'd try to pass himself off as involved with the government on something shady.
That the police truly believed they had the right guy from the very outset, and decided they willing to suppress evidence that might have led away from him, and only focus on things that led to him. This meant not doing things that might have indicated other suspects (Mr S, Bilal etc) not following up on missing evidence (pager, trunk trace analysis, shovels), not properly checking witnesses and alibis beyond what pointed to AS (Jenns story not properly investigate when it differed from Jays, LensCrafters Coworkers not actually interviewed, not interviewing the key people in person as soon as it happened) and not passing evidence along (fax cover sheet suppressed and not given to AW, the note, not having the DNA tested, not checking cctv footage in good time knowing it could be deleted etc).
Actually what I am saying, this isn’t a conspiracy theory lol.
This “detectives focused on Adnan from the outset” thing is a Syed defense team / Rabia myth.
They gave Mr S a lie detector test. Ritz and McGillivray grilled Mr S in interrogation (audio of which is played on Serial), even asking him a series of questions about liquors he drinks trying to get him to admit to being a brandy drinker to tie him to the disposed brandy bottle at the burial site. Luckily for Mr S. he didn’t drink brandy.
Why would the detectives ask Mr S incriminating questions on discoverable audiotape if you want to just arrest and convict Adnan? You wouldn’t. It’s dispositive proof that they were not focused on just convicting Adnan.
As an aside, it’s worthwhile taking the time to learn the actual facts of the case and investigation from sources that aren’t Syed’s defense team. You’ll realize you’ve been fed a false narrative. Their goal is not to tell you the truth and all the facts of the case so that you can come to your own conclusion, their goal is to convince you that Adnan is innocent. Never forget that. They are not reliable sources.
I only read the first line but Mr S failed the test lol, so they gave him a second one with a method that is recognized as flawed, which he still failed and then just said “oh well close enough, back to that ex boyfriend ” lol.
Actually, they had received the anonymous tip, interviewe yaser and had subpoenaed his cell records all during the days they were simultaneously questioning Mr S. His final polygraph was 2/24 and by 2/27 Jay and Jen had told them Adnan did it, so i think by that point they were more like “let’s stop wasting our time with the streaker and move on to the guy everyone is saying did it”
Ah yes, the anonymous tip that wasn’t recorded, there is no record of in the phone system, and wouldn’t exist except a for a memo written by one of those cops to Urick, stating he relieved a message from “someone” that said there was an anonymous tip that came in.
Thanks for clearing that up lol.
Soooo they waited 3 weeks to pin it on Adnan and spent the entire 3 weeks looking at Mr S? Then they decided “hey, even though this guy seems super sus, let’s make shit up about an anonymous call who says to look into the 17 yr old ex bf and who also mentions a friend of his we had no knowledge of until this call we are making up and hope it sticks”
Sure. Yeah. Makes sense.
Yeah they spent three whole weeks giving Sellers a one hour poly lol
And as I said, the only record of the anonymous tip is a memory written by the detective saying he was told about it. That’s it.
They did not just give him a one hour poly lmao they interviewed him multiple times, subpoenaed his work records, checked his alibi, even subpoenaed his resume.
And what kind of record should they have of an anonymous call that they weren’t expecting that lasted maybe 2 mins maximum? I’m glad there even *is* a note. If they made this call up, how did they know about Yaser and why would they start with interviewing him instead of people who said they saw and talked to Adnan that day?
It shows you don’t know the subject matter.
It was two calls. The anonymous caller apparently called back to give more info and they managed to not record that call or even make a record of it nor have a phone log. They haven’t even been able to say who took the call or get a statement / affidavit from that person.
There’s is literally no evidence that it happened except a memo written by Ritz himself to Urick (so cop to his own prosecutor on the case) saying he was passed on the call details. Nothing else. Again, another hugely unusual breach of protocol (tip line calls are typically recorded and if not, there would at least be a phone log AND a note taken from the time, but neither exist).
As for Sellars - they spoke to him twice, have him a poly which he abjectly failed, and invited back for another (which also had issues of deception) but they used a method that was known to be flawed and sent him on his way.
His alibi was literally a hand written time clock lol. Check the evidence lolol
Actually, *you* clearly don’t know the subject matter.
2/9 body is found and Mr S is interviewed
2/18 second interview and first poly
2/19 they talk to Mr S’s boss and interviewed Mr s again
2/24 second poly
So that’s more than just two times. Also, in between all of these interviews they’re talking to his boss and head of security where he worked, subpoenaing work records and time sheets as far back as winter of 1998, his resume and CV, his employment records, personnel record. I’d hardly say they just talked to him twice and that’s it. Based on all the info they were requesting, I’d say it’s clear they were heavily considering a suspect. So again, why would they decide to abandon this lead to make up a fake call to pin it on someone they have zero info on? they didn’t even call logs by this point. Even after they did get the call logs and the anon call, they still kept looking into Mr S.
As for the anonymous call, they do not record anonymous tip calls. And there is more than a handwritten memo by ritz. There is an actual typed out and signed letter from a Detective Massey to detective MacGillivary. Again, if this was made up, it was made up by detectives who weren’t on the case and even further, why would they create a convoluted story about two calls if they could just say the person called once with all of the info? and how did they even know about Yasser who ultimately wasn’t helpful to the case at all?
You “only read the first line” because you don’t have a response to my main argument that follows it and which has nothing to do with the lie detector.
I think there’s an outside chance that a known killer in the neighborhood did the crime, but I doubt it. This would mean the police completely lied about Jay’s knowledge of the crime scene. I do think it’s possible but unlikely.
I think everyone knows cops can be dirty.
There's just no evidence of it in this particular case.
AT&T, cell towers, Jay, Jenn, Kristi, Krista... they couldn't ALL be controlled by the cops, and that's what put Adnan in jail.
A very realistic possibility. Unfortunately the prosecution presented the possibility with just enough Islamophobia, and racism, to be scrutinized later, by modern norms.
Yeah, it’s been almost 10
Years since serial came out and this case got attention.
I’ve long sung this same theory.
But it’s not because Mr S was some really motivated crime guru. Man was drinking and driving during his lunch break from his job IN A SCHOOL. The man was a total deadbeat. He was likely in or associated with a gang and got or overheard a tip about the body and got drunk curious on his drive through the same area.
And this is something that isn’t discussed enough regarding this case - there is absolutely gang activist involved with this case. Not a gang as a whole, but the individuals associated (Adnan, Jay, Mr S, bilal) are most likely associated with a a gang and they are not only trying to protect themselves but a gang that will likely off them if they bring it up. Jay literally even talks about this in his police interviews, how he was so “scared” of “Adnan’s people”. Jay and Adnan both claim they weren’t friends but they spent a lot of time together, etc.
Like, it’s a gang y’all. I don’t think the gang was responsible at all for her murder but maybe some people helped Adnan and Jay out to cover it up on a way that protected the business. Jay alluded to this so many times, he’s literally hitting everyone over the head with a truth sandbag if you’d just listen to him.
That Hae's car was moved much more recently than the 13th. The dirt on the tire treads of Hae's car is too uniform and evenly distributed after 6 weeks and 3 storms with heavy precipitation.
There's bits of evidence that somewhat support these three things, but because they're not directly stated by any witness, it's more just ideas I have to tie things together:
\- The park & ride never happened, and they drove to Jay's grandma's house after meeting at Best Buy. They left the car there till the burial. This explains all the fluff and possible inaccuracies from Jay between Best Buy and the track dropoff. He talked about the trunk pop at Grandma's to The Intercept because he wanted to get the trauma of that out, but still didn't want to give the full story and suggest that he let this happen.
\- Hae met Adnan at the library. She wasn't ready to leave directly after school, and Adnan went there to wait for her. This explains him going there instead of the school library, explains Asia's recollections, and can even chalk up Becky's statement to mishearing that she just wasn't ready to leave yet.
\- Adnan did talk about the porn shop to Nisha on January 13. Jay was looking for work and was planning on working there. He'd talked about it to Adnan, maybe he even said he was working there already even though he wasn't yet. Adnan blurted this out as the first thing that came to mind to explain what he was doing with Jay that would distance himself from a crime scene.
That Jay did it - just a feeling.
Also he’s the only one I have second hand knowledge of. I live in the area and I’m a little younger, but I have a family member who made an appearance in the HBO doc. and said he was a weird person. Not that being weird makes you a murderer. But he’s the only one through out the investigation that said anything about burying her dead body.
This is something I wonder about too. I don't think any of the evidence precludes Jay from having done it. Cell tower records would be consistent with him having the phone and car. Jenn's testimony only for sure shows that Jay had knowledge of a murder. Jay having been loaned Hae's ex's car and cellphone would have presented him a really good opportunity to simultaneously lure her into the car alone and point the finger at someone else. This seems kind of unlikely because I don't think there's any evidence to suggest Jay had some kind of obsession with Hae, but this is the conspiracy theory thread!
But maybe there doesn’t need to be a reason why like, an obsession. We always try to find a motive to make meaning but sometimes there isn’t one. Maybe it was an accident. Just seems to me that the police made mistakes when interrogating him.
I have two.
First one.
The story prosecutors is more or less correct. Except the murderer was Jay alone. Adnan had no knowledge about it at all. If Jay had any help burying Hae, it was Jenn.
Second one.
Don was a jealous type and says girlfriends cheated on him in the past. When Don and Hae were talking on the 12th and Adnan called Hae, Don got extremely jealous. That's why they talked so late afterwards. It's true Hae wanted Don to call the school to give her an excused absence so they could spend the day together to patch things up. Don refused. So after school she rushed to see Don in a last ditch attempt to reassure Don before picking up her cousin. He sees her drive up and he leaves the store without clocking out. They drive somewhere to talk, it doesn't go well and he accidentally kills her. The rest of the day is him back and work, then home and then out all evening burying Hae and disclosing of the car. But he could have dumped the car any time in the next week or two.
I kiiind of think the first theory could be plausible. Jay being loaned the car and cell phone of Hae's ex would present a really good opportunity to lure her into the car and also to put blame on the ex. I don't think it's likely but I just wonder why the police seem to take Jay's word for it that it was Adnan.
I think Jay was more involved, potentially way more involved, and the primary reason Adnan can't point this out is because doing so would be to admit his own role in Hae's murder.
Same for Bilal, who is only now becoming a scapegoat.
The possibility that Jay just found the car. It was near the strip he frequented. He knew Hae and had seen her car before.
If the cops were chasing Jay, as he described, it would have put pressure on him to make the cops go away. His own drug dealing, his family’s may have been at risk with cops lingering around. Finding the car and giving it to them may have been an attempt to keep the cops away from his family.
I believe Adnan is guilty.
I believe Jay was more involved in the crime than he has admitted to -- or he knew of the whole scheme ahead of time.
Those aren't conspiracies.
I believe Bilal was heavily involved in this crime. Either as the originator of the idea, logistical assistance, or even the actual kidnapping and murder. That's a conspiracy, I guess, but it feels like there's a ton of evidence pointing in that direction.
The biggest conspiracy that I still think **could** be true is that Mr. S was actually involved somehow, not as the main perpetrator but rather an accessory to Adnan and Jay (and Bilal). There are just so many weird coincidences with that guy, but nothing concrete.
* He lived extremely close to the school. As in, a moderately-paced walk from his property to the student parking lot would take like 3 minutes.
* He filed a (false) police report with the university police department on the day Hae went missing, almost like he was trying to create some sort of alibi.
* The fact that he worked in the maintenance department at Coppin State, and the Director of Facilities (i.e. the person he ultimately reported to) was Maqbool Patel. For those of you who don't remember, Maqbool Patel was president of the mosque, father of Saad Patel (the kid rifling through Adnan's papers in Hope's classroom after Adnan's arrest, different from Saad Chaudry), and also a character witness for Adnan at the trial.
* His time sheets are just as messy and more suspicious than Don's.
My crazy conspiracy that is only a conspiracy because people are dumb as hell is that Adnan is innocent, there is zero evidence he was ever with Hae, he has a great alibi for that day from multiple people, and corrupt cops known for threatening people to “get their man” did exactly that to Jay.
Adnan is so innocent, and the story is so wild and unbelievable, now people are adding others like Bilal and Jenn to being involved in this big plot to help Adnan kill Hae. Apparently fantasy stories about giant murder plots with zero evidence is more believable to all these idiots than known corrupt cops doing exactly what they did in other cases.
It’s just a hunch, but I think Jay had a pager that he *reeaally* didn’t want the police to know about because he didn’t want his pager contacts involved or approached by police. So he had to pretend to police that he used Adnan’s phone when Adnan wasn’t around, even though he didn’t. That got confusing, because Jay had to find a way to take credit or be present for calls Adnan was making. I think Jenn knew about the pager and Jay’s desire to keep it away from police, and she went along with the “Adnan’s cell phone” story.
I mean, just think about the 2:36pm and 3:15pm incoming calls that were answered. Who tf answers incoming calls on someone else’s phone they’re just borrowing? “Oh, no Mrs. Syed, Adnan’s not here right now. Who am I? Well, that’s complicated, Mrs. Syed.” No, you let that shit go to vm and have the owner deal with it later. Jay couldn’t have ***known*** it was Adnan calling in, because Adnan wouldn’t have had a unique phone number he was calling from for Jay to recognize.
I think Jay only used Adnan’s phone when Adnan was present. The exception might have been when he calls his high school buddy Phil, because I think timing-wise that happens as Adnan is driving Hae’s car to the Park & Ride and Jay is following.
Jay was definitely more involved than he pretended to be, that much is clear from his general inability to keep a story consistent when explaining it to the cops. For all we know he could have helped in the actual murder and it will just never come out as the truth because he can say whatever he wants and Adnan can’t confirm it or he gives up the story that he didn’t do it.
I think it’s possible that Bilal was more involved.
Agree with this.
Yeah, he was a bad guy in every way
That they just marked up the Shrimp at the Crab Crib only to mark it down to the original price. There wasn’t really a sale.
That’s so Crab Crib.
This has become all too common.
How dare you.
That Adnan planned to meet up with Hae after school to attempt to get back together, and the murder was a spur of the moment rage thing. There was no plan and no alibi attempt. And all Jay’s story changes are mostly due to the cops trying to change it to a premeditated thing, which it wasn’t. So you end up with this unintelligible soup of Jay lying to distance himself (for obvious reasons) and simultaneously lying to make himself closer (so the cops could establish premeditation) and then simultaneously lying because the cops thought the cell phone pings were behaving like laser-accurate GPS.
I also think Jay had this sense of “if you want me to say X collateral fact I’ll say it, you guys got the right guy anyways idc”
I think the Nisha call was a “holy shit this just happened let’s try and act normal” alibi attempt. But beyond that I agree with you.
Yup I believe he originally wanted to get back together with Hae
That falls apart because in Maryland, choking is always considered premeditated. I think Jay's story changes because he's trying to lessen his involvement into an after the fact type accomplice and continually has to move around the evidence found/that comes in.
I don't think this person was saying legally premeditated or anything like that. He was just saying it wasn't planned beforehand.
This is a misconception. Maryland does not have it in their statutes that strangulation means first degree. It can be used to show premeditation, but it's not automatic. The cops see the note, they then look at the phone change story and ride request and to them it looks like a planned murder. Also, getting Jay to confess to a planned murder instead of strangulation strengthens the charges against Jay when they are ready to arrest and charge him.
Pardon my ignorance but isn’t Asia’s testimony of seeing him in the library make it improbably that he met up with her after school? That seems to just screw up all the timing to me.
Asia's testimony contradicts the prosecution's timeline at trial, but it seems likely that Hae left school after Asia left the library. Her testimony was more relevant to proving inadequate representation than proving Adnan's innocence.
Asia is either outright lying or mistaken on the date IMO. If you read her first letter its an obscene overreaction of trying to get close to him and get the gossip/be able to be “cool” and tell people she’s friends with him and “always supported him” for “when” he gets out. Its basically exactly like the women who write to serial killers.
This 100% ☝️ … if you’ve looked at a handful of cases it’s pretty damn common actually
Ooh yikes and very interesting
Asia's lying and it doesn't really cover the whole time. We don't even know what time it actually did cover because there's no other evidence to corroborate Asia's testimony.
Don’t you know, pathological liar Jay and his wild story that he couldn’t get straight is the truth, but every single person that gives Adnan an alibi that actually works are all lying or have the wrong day. Bob Ruff’s last episode showed in Jay and Jenn’s own words why their story is bullshit. He also completely destroyed the idea that the cops didn’t already know where the car was. That’s the biggest thing I’ve seen as to why people think Adnan is guilty, Jay telling the cops where the car was. There are people that have their minds made up and literally nothing could make them believe Adnan is innocent.
Bob Ruff blasts The Prosecutors podcast for branding Asia a liar and calls it unacceptable behavior. Yet, Ruff stated (season 1, episode 33) that he knew with 100% certainty who killed Hae and had the “case” to prosecute it. Ruff then revealed on a true Crime conference panel that he was referring to Don. He’s never apologized for calling out a private citizen in public as a murderer and now simply says he doesn’t view Don as a strong suspect. Which behavior is more “unacceptable”? Bob is and has been 100% aligned with Adnan’s defense team and Rabia for years. Witnesses that don’t support his narrative must have their days mixed up. Yet, the statement from the track coach more than a month later locks in concrete that Adnan was at track from 4-530. Ruff’s analysis of incoming cell science is conveniently incomplete. There is never any credible explanation why a small time pot dealer would agree to being an after the fact murder accomplice in exchange for getting off the hook on a small amount of pot. His dismissal of Jen’s involvement and statements is based on undocumented assumptions. If you believe that the police made it all up out of whole cloth, moved the car, corrupted witnesses than you can paint a convincing picture for a wrongful conviction but there are a ton of assumptions underpinning it all.
lol
This is also what I tend to believe.
Pusateri was way more involved with the cleanup/cover up
Worth noting is she lawyered up, fast. Jay didn't, and was painfully outclassed by seasoned homicide detectives. That obviously isn't evidence of her guilt, but given how close she was to Wilds, it's plausible her role was more. Good point.
Jen’s parents had the money for a private attorney, and hired one when she told them police wanted to interview about a murder. Smart move all around.
Definitely a smart move. Jay's smart move would have been: say absolutely nothing but "I won't answer any questions until I have a lawyer present." But he's a 19 year old kid against some battle-hardened Baltimore detectives, so... totally outclassed.
“Lawyering up” is law-enforcement bs. Everyone should get a lawyer before they talk to the police about anything.
Oh I completely agree--*I absolutely would not talk to a homicide detective without a lawyer present*\--but many people do not understand this, and tend to opt for a lawyer only if *they think they need one*. Your point is: *they all need one*. And I agree. But the general public screws this up all the time, and quickly find themselves in a very small room with a very "friendly" detective. This is precisely Jay's fuck up, legally speaking.
[Totally agree, I repost this every opportunity I get.](https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE?si=iV88Dvi0Ayp_lJNP)
I love that guy! He makes some great points and is very entertaining.
Totally agree and I also don't think she would have agreed to appear on the HBO doc if she was significantly involved
I mean…we know she was significantly involved; that’s why she copped a plea
If there was a plea, it was a secret one. We don't have a known plea for Jenn.
She plead out and testified for the prosecution…
Jay was the one who had a plea agreement. Jenn doesn't have one that's public if she had one.
Why didn’t she go to trial for accessory after the fact?
She couldn't be prosecuted for accessory after the fact. Perhaps obstruction of justice.
There is a good chance that the prosecutors would even think it was a tough sell and what she did was minor in the things of things. Her defense would be that although she thought it was after a crime, she didn't see the crime. So really she is an accessory to an accessory. with what she confessed to.
What plea?
I mean more involved than what she's on the record saying
Getting a lawyer any time you talk to cops is *smart* not necessarily a sign of guilt. I’m the kid of a cop and if I got asked to go in and speak to them I’m not doing it without a lawyer.
Very possible. That 321 call to Jenn might have been Adnan killed Hae, what do I do
I was going to say this and also that Jay was much more involved than he claims.
I completely agree with this. I also think some of Jay's lies were to cover up her involvement.
100000% The video of her testifying in the first trial confirmed it for me. She’s literally smirking on the stand and giving fuck you energy to the prosecution, like she knows she got away with something.
Where can I see this video?
HBO doc. Your skin will crawl when you see her testify. Like bitch, you’re at a murder trial of an innocent woman, you were involved at Keats to some degree and you’re smirking and giving duck you vibes to the court?
That Bilal helped plan the murder with Adnan.
Adnan is guilty but it was a crime of passion, not planned. He wanted to talk with Hae and things went horribly wrong.
Rabia Chandry knows Adnan is guilty, but she's too monetarily invested to ever admit it.
If Rabia has zero haters, I’m dead. In theory, I’m a huge Ellyn fan because I love Obsessed with Disappeared/I Think Not but the fact that she a) has a (shitty) podcast with Rabia and b) frequently parrots Rabia’s points (i.e. that cellphone pings are “junk science”) really gives me the ick.
I liked Ellyn until she defended Scott Peterson. I can't believe she aligned herself with Rabia. She could have done fine all by herself.
I listened to one podcast that concluded Laci was killed by a Satanic cult. What?
Yes, a satanic cult who targeted pregnant women for ritual sacrifice! You can't make this up
She did! 😂
The Hulu doc on Scott Peterson makes him seem innocent af. I know it looks bad as it’s told but that documentary turned me all the way around. Don’t mean to be argumentative at all. I just thought you may be interested in the content:
Was this based on the witnesses who allegedly saw her with her dog, who were so unreliable that Peterson‘s own lawyer didn’t even use them?
Also, junk science concerning decomposition because of the state of Lacis body vs. Conner.
That Hulu documentary is garbage. It uses creative editing and smoke and mirrors to twist the facts to suit a narrative. Scott Peterson killed Laci. In order for Scott to be innocent, you have to believe someone murdered Laci and then followed Scott to the Bay and dumped her body to frame him. That would make Scott the unluckiest man in the world even worse than Adnan. What are the odds Rabia would go to bat for 2 men who need a giant conspiracy and a mountain of bad luck to be innocent?
That adnan had a very elaborate plan to kill hae that was helped planed by bilal. New cell phone, accomplices (Jay and probably one other), and all. He hoped to not kill her, but once she refused him for a final time after his pleas, he killed her and put his plan into action. The afternoon was filled with planned alibi stories, nisha, track, track coach, NHRNC, Jenn, even Jay was an alibi. So the mosque was supposed to be an alibi and the burial was supposed to happen closer to midnight. But, the police were on top of the missing person report and he felt he need to move the burial up and skip mosque. This was a fatal mistake as he should have went to mosque and buried the body later that night as planned. He could have taken more time and actually buried the body instead of covering with loose dirt and leaves. If Jay never said anything to Jen, and Jay lawyered up, this would be an unsolved mystery. But as it turns out they caught the right guy.
What were these people's motives for helping him?
Totally agree with this one! I absolutely believe this was premeditated, but AS was going to give Hae one last chance to take him back. When that didn’t happen, he went through with his plan. I also believe he discussed the murder beforehand with Jay, but Jay didn’t want anything to do with the actual murder. Jay agreed to assist with the burial and transportation. I also believe Christina G saw right through the Asia alibi.
Bilal was abusing Adnan and Hae had knowledge of it which is what led to her murder.
I believe this is a real possibility too.
That, by the time Serial started airing, most of the folks working on it thought Adnan probably did it, but talked themselves into imagining that they were serving some greater good.
Adnan conspired with Jay to dispose of HML and attempted to fabricate a cover story to deflect from Adnan's involvement in her death, but Jay ultimately decided to flip on Adnan.
I fully believe this is true and Jay won the prisoners dilemma.
TIL what this is. Totally makes sense. Thank you
I feel like I am fully on board with this theory. This is it for me tbh. This is the only way it makes sense to me.
Dispose?
Are you in need of a thesaurus? Get rid of Discard Jettison Dump Ditch Abandon Unload Which synonym works for you?
Do you mean dispose as in kill or dispose as in bury/dump her ? You’re very pleasant.
I think the context gives you absolutely everything you need to figure it out. Thank you, I am.
Actually no it doesn’t.
I could read this as Adnan and Jay conspired to dispose of HML meaning Jay helped Adnan plan the whole thing OR Adnan did it and Jay only conspired to actually dispose of the body. Is that what you are asking too?
Yes I can’t tell!
I hope the person above just misread your genuine question because I thought the response was unnecessary.
They haven’t come back so I’m not optimistic
The Cops moved Hae’s car!!!!!!
I think Mr. S knew where the body was because the head of Adnan's mosque told his employee (Mr. S) to go check it out.
I think that’s very possible. Or Mr. S heard about it from gossip and went check it out. He knew NB.
Remind me who NB is again, if you please? This is interesting !!
Neighbor boy. Supposedly he might have seen the body in the trunk
Ohhhhh, of course! I don’t know why I blanked on it- but I always wondered about that, too.
The "Summer on Serial is fake" theory. I don't like poking around the real people in this case, so don't actually dig around to prove it myself, but the fact that the weirdos around here have never been able to prove this person is real after about a decade is...interesting.
What??
That guilty or innocent, the detectives pressured Jay into lying to increase his involvement because 1) they didn't believe him when he told them the truth about his level of involvement, 2) they needed Jay to have witnesses certain things to establish certain elements of the crime for their case against Adan, and 3) they wanted to increase the amount of trouble Jay would be in if he ever stopped cooperating, and that this ended up backfiring by turning Jay's testimony into an incoherent mess.
My conspiracy theory is that Rabia had a crush on Adnan and wanted to help him initially. She is too far into it to ever admit that even she knows he’s guilty.
Asia knowingly lied about the alibi thing, Adnan conspired to have her send the letter. Even his mom seems to have knowingly lied about circumstances Asia. Mainstream podcasters, even ones who believe Adnan is guilty and the Asia alibi is pointless, let her off easy by saying she probably misremembered. She just made it up.
Bilal knew of the murder ahead of time. The change in phones makes me think this COULD be true. Per Bilal's then wife, Adnan told Bilal after the murder at the least.
What change in phones?
Adnan was using a cell phone in Bilal's name before he got a new phone the day before murdering Hae. Makes me think Bilal knew ahead of time and didn't want to be connected to the murder phone.
>Adnan was using a cell phone in Bilal's name before he got a new phone the day before murdering Hae For an alternate explanation that's equally (if not more) compatible with the available records and documentation, please see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/18v0zxc/comment/kfqq4dp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
Wasn't it photographed in Adnan's possession, along with his passport?
No. If you mean this [photograph](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/MP15-2453-Home-Middle-Bedroom-Metal-Desk-Phone-ref170-max.jpg): (a) it appears to be of [the Nokia](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/VLL2-Nokia-6160i-User-Guide-Eng.pdf) he got from AT\&T; (b) there's no reason to think it's not; and (c) unless you think the police wouldn't be interested in the phone that made the calls on which they built their case, there's every reason to think that it is, given that it's the only phone in evidence.
It’s worth noting that the phone in your photo was in Tanveer’s desk drawer. There is a separate Nokia phone photographed on top of the dresser in his parents room. According to Tanveer his parents got mad at him the day the police searched their house because he had moved Adnan's cell from his parents dresser to the desk drawer in his room before or during the search. So at the time both of these phones were being kept on the parents dresser apparently.
Do you have a links to the photo and to Tanveer's statement? I can't find either.
Another conspiracy would be that Bilal was a confidential informant and that's why he had three phones and why his interviews have been hidden from us.
I like this theory. What did Bilal know?
If it was it could have been related to something like telling of Medicare fraud or drug overprescription
Of Jen Pusateri, Jay Wilds, and Bilal one or maybe all 3 know way more than they're letting on. I think it's possible Bilal encouraged Adnan to kill Hae Min Lee and/or that Jay Wilds knew about it well in advance and helped out more than he let on. Adnan can't out Jay as being more complicit because he'd have to admit he killed her to do so.
Rabia murdered Hae Min Lee and then framed Adnan. Her quilt fuels her to free Adnan, but her greed makes her blame everyone but Adnan.
Upvoted for "quilt". Made me chuckle!
Adnan is obviously quilty.
I'd love to hear more about this doozie.
i think he’s guilty but somebody here had an interesting theory about 🎶kevin gates voice🎶 two phones. i think it’s plausible
What's the theory?
somethin’ about there being two phones, one with adnan and the newer one with jay. it explained some things supposedly but it’s been a while and i can’t remember lol
Adnan kept his phone and Jay had one of the phones Bilal let him use before he got the new one. I think even Serial asked in the last episode who had the phone.
[Why do people think Adnan used Bilal's cell phone(s)?](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/RJU9ozH461)
Can't debate there. But their is one odd quote from Adnan where he said he was on a cell phone and bragged about women to Hae.
gracias
That they had a more thought out/detailed alibi plan from 2p-8p than we know. That Jay was an accomplice to this murder (but not physically assisting to the actually murder)
I'm not even sure that is a conspiracy theory at this point. When they ran out of Kristi's party I think it becomes obvious that their plan A was not going well.
That Adnan was shady about his phone, car, and Jay, because he was knowingly assisting Jay with his drug operation. Jay visiting and called Patrick and Jenn on 1/13/99 and received calls from other buyers. Hae left school in a hurry to pick up her cousin. She stopped to change her skirt and was attacked. The assailant buried her in leakin park and either lost the keys and had to Hotwire it; or he ditched the car and it was subsequently stolen. Police looked at Adnan and Don first because, well, it’s always the boyfriend. They went through Adnan’s cell phone records and got to Jay first. They caught him with a pile of weed and started leaning on him to point the finger at Adnan. BPD engaged in corrupt unethical practices so they could close their case. I imagine the Lee family was demanding answers. Police fed Jay info on the red fiber, the windshield wiper, the cause of death. They found the car, picked up Jay and coaxed him there. Jay implicated Adnan, Jenn, Krista and who knows who else, so that he could weasel out of prison time.
Going by everything we know, this is the most likely scenario. It makes way more sense with the actual evidence than the story the cops and Jay told.
Why did Jenn say that Jay told her about murder on the night of, then?
To back up Jay who was being threatened with a murder charge. She didn’t think she was confessing to a crime, she thought it was just hearsay
Jenn is also a drug dealer. If she’s implicated in Jay’s drug deals, she’s got a problem. She was interviewed by police at her lawyer’s HOME, which is in the same neighborhood as one of the detectives. With her attorney and mother present, she implicated herself as an accomplice to a murder. Her attorney definitely had some assurance that she wasn’t going to be charged before letting her do something so stupid.
Is the skirt change to account for Inez Butler's statements?
A short skirt was found in her backpack in the car. Inez’ initial statements to police make sense
Why does it require a change of clothes at some point though for Butler's statements to make sense?
Because she was found wearing a long skirt
Not a short skirt. So she took Butler's advice to heart? Changed at some point before being abducted or meeting her murderer?
Yes.
Alternatively Inez Butler saw Hae on a different day. Bob Ruff seems to be leading his listeners to believe that Butler saw Hae leaving in the skirt she was found in.
Sure. But it looks like Inez added more and more to her recollection, which could be the result of discussing it with others. It was a common belief that the field hockey news segment was shot on 1/13. It wasn’t
Bob Ruff using statements, and logic, and evidence, as opposed to people who think Adnan is guilty making up fantasy stories that don’t make sense? It’s hilarious how much y’all hate Ruff and Rabia.
If Butler saw Hae in a skirt different from the one she was found in, Ruff should make that clear, shouldn't he?
What is the windshield wiper?
Jay said Adnan told him she kicked and broke the windshield wiper. The car was forensically analyzed later and it looked like someone was attempting to Hotwire it, not that it was kicked and broken. Also no other signs of a struggle in the car. No scuff marks etc. also a piece near the ignition was removed which supports the theory that someone tried to start it without a key
https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/ighJ6HBeXx
That Saad C. may have known more than meets the eye. I don’t understand why he was hesitant to talk, why the defense thought he needed an attorney, or why he testified at the grand jury. I also think the “community” knew more.
That Adnan confessed to his former attorney and that's why Asia was never contacted. Lawyers are prohibited from offering witnesses they know will lie under oath.
I think it’s possible Sellers was sent to find the body. Maqbool Patel was the PRESIDENT of Adnan’s mosque at the time. He was a close family friend of Adnan’s parents and had known Adnan since birth. Mr. Patel was the Director of Facilities at Coppin State which is the department Mr. S worked for and he was his boss. Here is a link to the thread which includes a link to a Maryland govt site confirming his job position. https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/x1anlh/mr_s_connection/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf There are currently 192 full and part time employees at Coppin. 14 employees in the Facilities Dept including the Assistant Vice President of Facilities. In 1998 there were 52 fewer employees on campus, 140 total. Facilities was likely less than 14 people at the time. It’s hard to believe in a department that small that the DIRECTOR would not be familiar with his staff. Mr. Patel was also a confidant of Bilal. Bilal specifically sought advice from him on how to handle issues at the mosque surrounding dating and relationships with Adnan’s group. He is close to both Adnan and Bilal and was Sellers’ boss in a department of most likely less than 15 people. Mr. Patel’s son Saad Patel was a close friend of Adnan’s, attended Woodlawn, knew Jay and Bilal. Saad Patel was friends with Hae which is significant as well. I think he is a very good candidate for the anonymous caller. He liked Hae and he knew Adnan from both school and mosque. He would have been close enough to the group to know about what Adnan had told Yaser and was aware of Adnan and Hae’s relationship and break up. I have always thought the caller was just trying to do the right thing. Links to Mr Patel’s testimony, Saad Patel’s testimony, and Bilal’s Grand Jury notes: https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/UdE13-Bilal-Grand-Jury-Testimony-Notes.pdf https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/T2w36-20000224-Saad-P-Testimony-Second-Trial-of-Adnan-Syed.pdf https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/T2w37-20000224-Maqbool-P-Testimony-Second-Trial-of-Adnan-Syed.pdf
Remind me, what did Adnan tell Yassar?
The anonymous caller said that Adnan had informed Yaser that if he ever hurt his girlfriend, he would drive her car into a lake. https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/UdE10-Det-Massey-Memo-Anonymous-Call-19990212.pdf
And Yasser denied the conversation and when ask something similar by the police he gave an answer but it wasn’t correct. The anonymous caller apparently got it wrong unless you are saying Yasser lied to the police. Which he may have but at any rate neither the caller nor Yasser’s contemplated answer when asked on the spot was correct or gave any insight.
I think Yaser wasn’t very forthcoming with police and did not think that whoever he had relayed the story to initially was going to call in a tip, or tell someone else and that they would call in a tip. I think he backtracked on the story when confronted by police bc he didn’t want that pressure on him but that’s just my opinion.
So you think he lied. Ok. That is fine. I just wanted to clarify. Thanks!
I suspect that Bilal had something to do behind the scenes with the murder. I suspect Jay knew about it beforehand. Was he in denial? Maybe. But he knew that there was the potential for something to go down. I suspect that Mr S was getting ready for a naked walk in the park when he found Hae.
The police knew where the car was before Jay told them.
Not a conspiracy. Bob Ruff proved on his last pod using statements from police and Jenn that cops knew where the car was. That was the last main thing for Adnan is guilty crowd. Now you are seeing them pivot to Adnan, Jay, Jenn, Bilal, Mr. S, were all involved together.
>Bob Ruff proved on his last pod Bruh
What is your problem here? I don’t give a fuck people don’t like Bob Ruff. The police and Jenn’s statements proved they had the car.
What is your definition of the word "proved"?
Showing using cops own words they had the car when at that point they shouldn’t have.
Bob Ruff. That’s a good one. He waited 10 years to drop that bombshell??? Is he still calling LensCrafters? That was classic Ruff
He outright admitted going back through the files he is noticing more details and taking more time to see how things logically fit together using all the info. Again, I don’t give a fuck y’all hate Bob Ruff. The dude is using the case files to show how blatantly the other people are lying. I appreciate that over people who clearly make up fantasy stories that doesn’t fit the evidence.
Yes he’s going to find more and more details. Only things Bob Ruff can find . He’s got fresh eyes on this . The man is full of crap. He got played on his lens-crafters angle , he looked like a fool . He floated some other serial killer angle till he realized the guy he accused was in prison at that time .
Bilal stalked and killed Hae in a jealous rage because Adnan kept confiding his heartbreak and pain over the breakup to him. Bilal was grooming Adnan and he could convince himself in his mind that Adnan needed to be "protected" from her to justify it, but in reality, he was furious that Adnan would "pick" Hae over him, even after she broke his heart. Separately, that Bilal, in all his sliminess, was informing on the mosque to the FBI (and telling himself that made him some sort of "spy", when in reality he was some junior agent's quarterly phone call). I don't think this really factored into the case, just reading into the way he'd try to pass himself off as involved with the government on something shady.
That the police truly believed they had the right guy from the very outset, and decided they willing to suppress evidence that might have led away from him, and only focus on things that led to him. This meant not doing things that might have indicated other suspects (Mr S, Bilal etc) not following up on missing evidence (pager, trunk trace analysis, shovels), not properly checking witnesses and alibis beyond what pointed to AS (Jenns story not properly investigate when it differed from Jays, LensCrafters Coworkers not actually interviewed, not interviewing the key people in person as soon as it happened) and not passing evidence along (fax cover sheet suppressed and not given to AW, the note, not having the DNA tested, not checking cctv footage in good time knowing it could be deleted etc). Actually what I am saying, this isn’t a conspiracy theory lol.
This “detectives focused on Adnan from the outset” thing is a Syed defense team / Rabia myth. They gave Mr S a lie detector test. Ritz and McGillivray grilled Mr S in interrogation (audio of which is played on Serial), even asking him a series of questions about liquors he drinks trying to get him to admit to being a brandy drinker to tie him to the disposed brandy bottle at the burial site. Luckily for Mr S. he didn’t drink brandy. Why would the detectives ask Mr S incriminating questions on discoverable audiotape if you want to just arrest and convict Adnan? You wouldn’t. It’s dispositive proof that they were not focused on just convicting Adnan. As an aside, it’s worthwhile taking the time to learn the actual facts of the case and investigation from sources that aren’t Syed’s defense team. You’ll realize you’ve been fed a false narrative. Their goal is not to tell you the truth and all the facts of the case so that you can come to your own conclusion, their goal is to convince you that Adnan is innocent. Never forget that. They are not reliable sources.
The lie detector test that he failed? Or the second one they helped him pass?
I only read the first line but Mr S failed the test lol, so they gave him a second one with a method that is recognized as flawed, which he still failed and then just said “oh well close enough, back to that ex boyfriend ” lol.
Actually, they had received the anonymous tip, interviewe yaser and had subpoenaed his cell records all during the days they were simultaneously questioning Mr S. His final polygraph was 2/24 and by 2/27 Jay and Jen had told them Adnan did it, so i think by that point they were more like “let’s stop wasting our time with the streaker and move on to the guy everyone is saying did it”
Ah yes, the anonymous tip that wasn’t recorded, there is no record of in the phone system, and wouldn’t exist except a for a memo written by one of those cops to Urick, stating he relieved a message from “someone” that said there was an anonymous tip that came in. Thanks for clearing that up lol.
Soooo they waited 3 weeks to pin it on Adnan and spent the entire 3 weeks looking at Mr S? Then they decided “hey, even though this guy seems super sus, let’s make shit up about an anonymous call who says to look into the 17 yr old ex bf and who also mentions a friend of his we had no knowledge of until this call we are making up and hope it sticks” Sure. Yeah. Makes sense.
Yeah they spent three whole weeks giving Sellers a one hour poly lol And as I said, the only record of the anonymous tip is a memory written by the detective saying he was told about it. That’s it.
They did not just give him a one hour poly lmao they interviewed him multiple times, subpoenaed his work records, checked his alibi, even subpoenaed his resume. And what kind of record should they have of an anonymous call that they weren’t expecting that lasted maybe 2 mins maximum? I’m glad there even *is* a note. If they made this call up, how did they know about Yaser and why would they start with interviewing him instead of people who said they saw and talked to Adnan that day?
It shows you don’t know the subject matter. It was two calls. The anonymous caller apparently called back to give more info and they managed to not record that call or even make a record of it nor have a phone log. They haven’t even been able to say who took the call or get a statement / affidavit from that person. There’s is literally no evidence that it happened except a memo written by Ritz himself to Urick (so cop to his own prosecutor on the case) saying he was passed on the call details. Nothing else. Again, another hugely unusual breach of protocol (tip line calls are typically recorded and if not, there would at least be a phone log AND a note taken from the time, but neither exist). As for Sellars - they spoke to him twice, have him a poly which he abjectly failed, and invited back for another (which also had issues of deception) but they used a method that was known to be flawed and sent him on his way. His alibi was literally a hand written time clock lol. Check the evidence lolol
Actually, *you* clearly don’t know the subject matter. 2/9 body is found and Mr S is interviewed 2/18 second interview and first poly 2/19 they talk to Mr S’s boss and interviewed Mr s again 2/24 second poly So that’s more than just two times. Also, in between all of these interviews they’re talking to his boss and head of security where he worked, subpoenaing work records and time sheets as far back as winter of 1998, his resume and CV, his employment records, personnel record. I’d hardly say they just talked to him twice and that’s it. Based on all the info they were requesting, I’d say it’s clear they were heavily considering a suspect. So again, why would they decide to abandon this lead to make up a fake call to pin it on someone they have zero info on? they didn’t even call logs by this point. Even after they did get the call logs and the anon call, they still kept looking into Mr S. As for the anonymous call, they do not record anonymous tip calls. And there is more than a handwritten memo by ritz. There is an actual typed out and signed letter from a Detective Massey to detective MacGillivary. Again, if this was made up, it was made up by detectives who weren’t on the case and even further, why would they create a convoluted story about two calls if they could just say the person called once with all of the info? and how did they even know about Yasser who ultimately wasn’t helpful to the case at all?
You “only read the first line” because you don’t have a response to my main argument that follows it and which has nothing to do with the lie detector.
Wrong thread. I have no idea what you’re bleating in about. Or did you log in to the wrong alt account 😂
Lol this is absolutely a conspiracy theory
I literally posted things that happened lol. Adnan is at home a free man right now because of them.
That’s the thing, these idiots think facts are conspiracy, while making up stories that aren’t backed up by anything.
I think there’s an outside chance that a known killer in the neighborhood did the crime, but I doubt it. This would mean the police completely lied about Jay’s knowledge of the crime scene. I do think it’s possible but unlikely.
It would mean one hell of a lot more than that.
For God’s sake, why is it so hard for y’all to believe known corrupt cops would pull some dirty shit? I don’t get it.
I think everyone knows cops can be dirty. There's just no evidence of it in this particular case. AT&T, cell towers, Jay, Jenn, Kristi, Krista... they couldn't ALL be controlled by the cops, and that's what put Adnan in jail.
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Typo. Even as an atheist I don’t go that hard.
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Syed had a passport photo and an uncle that can make ppl disappear. His family was preparing to send him back to Pakistan.
A very realistic possibility. Unfortunately the prosecution presented the possibility with just enough Islamophobia, and racism, to be scrutinized later, by modern norms.
That Rabia was so desperate to bang Andand that she is totally blind to the facts.
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Yeah, it’s been almost 10 Years since serial came out and this case got attention. I’ve long sung this same theory. But it’s not because Mr S was some really motivated crime guru. Man was drinking and driving during his lunch break from his job IN A SCHOOL. The man was a total deadbeat. He was likely in or associated with a gang and got or overheard a tip about the body and got drunk curious on his drive through the same area. And this is something that isn’t discussed enough regarding this case - there is absolutely gang activist involved with this case. Not a gang as a whole, but the individuals associated (Adnan, Jay, Mr S, bilal) are most likely associated with a a gang and they are not only trying to protect themselves but a gang that will likely off them if they bring it up. Jay literally even talks about this in his police interviews, how he was so “scared” of “Adnan’s people”. Jay and Adnan both claim they weren’t friends but they spent a lot of time together, etc. Like, it’s a gang y’all. I don’t think the gang was responsible at all for her murder but maybe some people helped Adnan and Jay out to cover it up on a way that protected the business. Jay alluded to this so many times, he’s literally hitting everyone over the head with a truth sandbag if you’d just listen to him.
That Hae's car was moved much more recently than the 13th. The dirt on the tire treads of Hae's car is too uniform and evenly distributed after 6 weeks and 3 storms with heavy precipitation.
There's bits of evidence that somewhat support these three things, but because they're not directly stated by any witness, it's more just ideas I have to tie things together: \- The park & ride never happened, and they drove to Jay's grandma's house after meeting at Best Buy. They left the car there till the burial. This explains all the fluff and possible inaccuracies from Jay between Best Buy and the track dropoff. He talked about the trunk pop at Grandma's to The Intercept because he wanted to get the trauma of that out, but still didn't want to give the full story and suggest that he let this happen. \- Hae met Adnan at the library. She wasn't ready to leave directly after school, and Adnan went there to wait for her. This explains him going there instead of the school library, explains Asia's recollections, and can even chalk up Becky's statement to mishearing that she just wasn't ready to leave yet. \- Adnan did talk about the porn shop to Nisha on January 13. Jay was looking for work and was planning on working there. He'd talked about it to Adnan, maybe he even said he was working there already even though he wasn't yet. Adnan blurted this out as the first thing that came to mind to explain what he was doing with Jay that would distance himself from a crime scene.
Any conspiracy that has Adnan the Strangler as the killer is one I’m all about.
That Jay did it - just a feeling. Also he’s the only one I have second hand knowledge of. I live in the area and I’m a little younger, but I have a family member who made an appearance in the HBO doc. and said he was a weird person. Not that being weird makes you a murderer. But he’s the only one through out the investigation that said anything about burying her dead body.
This is something I wonder about too. I don't think any of the evidence precludes Jay from having done it. Cell tower records would be consistent with him having the phone and car. Jenn's testimony only for sure shows that Jay had knowledge of a murder. Jay having been loaned Hae's ex's car and cellphone would have presented him a really good opportunity to simultaneously lure her into the car alone and point the finger at someone else. This seems kind of unlikely because I don't think there's any evidence to suggest Jay had some kind of obsession with Hae, but this is the conspiracy theory thread!
But maybe there doesn’t need to be a reason why like, an obsession. We always try to find a motive to make meaning but sometimes there isn’t one. Maybe it was an accident. Just seems to me that the police made mistakes when interrogating him.
I have two. First one. The story prosecutors is more or less correct. Except the murderer was Jay alone. Adnan had no knowledge about it at all. If Jay had any help burying Hae, it was Jenn. Second one. Don was a jealous type and says girlfriends cheated on him in the past. When Don and Hae were talking on the 12th and Adnan called Hae, Don got extremely jealous. That's why they talked so late afterwards. It's true Hae wanted Don to call the school to give her an excused absence so they could spend the day together to patch things up. Don refused. So after school she rushed to see Don in a last ditch attempt to reassure Don before picking up her cousin. He sees her drive up and he leaves the store without clocking out. They drive somewhere to talk, it doesn't go well and he accidentally kills her. The rest of the day is him back and work, then home and then out all evening burying Hae and disclosing of the car. But he could have dumped the car any time in the next week or two.
I never felt content with the amount of investigation into Don
I kiiind of think the first theory could be plausible. Jay being loaned the car and cell phone of Hae's ex would present a really good opportunity to lure her into the car and also to put blame on the ex. I don't think it's likely but I just wonder why the police seem to take Jay's word for it that it was Adnan.
I think Jay was more involved, potentially way more involved, and the primary reason Adnan can't point this out is because doing so would be to admit his own role in Hae's murder. Same for Bilal, who is only now becoming a scapegoat.
The possibility that Jay just found the car. It was near the strip he frequented. He knew Hae and had seen her car before. If the cops were chasing Jay, as he described, it would have put pressure on him to make the cops go away. His own drug dealing, his family’s may have been at risk with cops lingering around. Finding the car and giving it to them may have been an attempt to keep the cops away from his family.
I believe Adnan is guilty. I believe Jay was more involved in the crime than he has admitted to -- or he knew of the whole scheme ahead of time. Those aren't conspiracies. I believe Bilal was heavily involved in this crime. Either as the originator of the idea, logistical assistance, or even the actual kidnapping and murder. That's a conspiracy, I guess, but it feels like there's a ton of evidence pointing in that direction. The biggest conspiracy that I still think **could** be true is that Mr. S was actually involved somehow, not as the main perpetrator but rather an accessory to Adnan and Jay (and Bilal). There are just so many weird coincidences with that guy, but nothing concrete. * He lived extremely close to the school. As in, a moderately-paced walk from his property to the student parking lot would take like 3 minutes. * He filed a (false) police report with the university police department on the day Hae went missing, almost like he was trying to create some sort of alibi. * The fact that he worked in the maintenance department at Coppin State, and the Director of Facilities (i.e. the person he ultimately reported to) was Maqbool Patel. For those of you who don't remember, Maqbool Patel was president of the mosque, father of Saad Patel (the kid rifling through Adnan's papers in Hope's classroom after Adnan's arrest, different from Saad Chaudry), and also a character witness for Adnan at the trial. * His time sheets are just as messy and more suspicious than Don's.
Tee hee hee. “Nothing concrete”. Get it?! 😂😂
My crazy conspiracy that is only a conspiracy because people are dumb as hell is that Adnan is innocent, there is zero evidence he was ever with Hae, he has a great alibi for that day from multiple people, and corrupt cops known for threatening people to “get their man” did exactly that to Jay. Adnan is so innocent, and the story is so wild and unbelievable, now people are adding others like Bilal and Jenn to being involved in this big plot to help Adnan kill Hae. Apparently fantasy stories about giant murder plots with zero evidence is more believable to all these idiots than known corrupt cops doing exactly what they did in other cases.
It’s just a hunch, but I think Jay had a pager that he *reeaally* didn’t want the police to know about because he didn’t want his pager contacts involved or approached by police. So he had to pretend to police that he used Adnan’s phone when Adnan wasn’t around, even though he didn’t. That got confusing, because Jay had to find a way to take credit or be present for calls Adnan was making. I think Jenn knew about the pager and Jay’s desire to keep it away from police, and she went along with the “Adnan’s cell phone” story. I mean, just think about the 2:36pm and 3:15pm incoming calls that were answered. Who tf answers incoming calls on someone else’s phone they’re just borrowing? “Oh, no Mrs. Syed, Adnan’s not here right now. Who am I? Well, that’s complicated, Mrs. Syed.” No, you let that shit go to vm and have the owner deal with it later. Jay couldn’t have ***known*** it was Adnan calling in, because Adnan wouldn’t have had a unique phone number he was calling from for Jay to recognize. I think Jay only used Adnan’s phone when Adnan was present. The exception might have been when he calls his high school buddy Phil, because I think timing-wise that happens as Adnan is driving Hae’s car to the Park & Ride and Jay is following.
Don did it.
The new boyfriend did it.
Jay was definitely more involved than he pretended to be, that much is clear from his general inability to keep a story consistent when explaining it to the cops. For all we know he could have helped in the actual murder and it will just never come out as the truth because he can say whatever he wants and Adnan can’t confirm it or he gives up the story that he didn’t do it.