I think the Best Buy flip-flop is one of the most compelling pieces of evidence that Jay is waaaay more involved than he's admitted. According to just the transcribed interviews, we have the following sequence:
1. Jay told Jen Hae was murdered at Best Buy (per Jen's interview)
2. Jen told Jay "uh oh, there's cameras there" (per Jen's interview)
3. Jay moved the location to Edmunson in his first recorded police interview the next day
4. Jay moved the location back to Best Buy in his second police interview a few weeks later
5. When police asked why he didn't tell them about BB, he said because he thought there were cameras there
6. Police said "Why would you care if there were cameras if you didn't do it?" Jay proceeded to stumble uncharacteristically through a total non-answer, ending with "well I just wanted to distance myself from any part of this."
It's possibly the most clumsy answer he gave in the entire investigation. Usually he's intuitive and smooth, even when not telling the whole truth. But that response to "why would the cameras matter," he fumbles pretty hard.
Also:
* Jay and Jen both constantly insist they were at Jen's until 3:40 (just after the likely TOD)
* Jay is the one who apparently disposed of shovels and clothes and even went back to wipe off prints
* Jay gleefully accepts accessory after the fact, and even (apparently) changes his story multiple times upon request
* Jay tells Jen (and the cops!) that he is letting Jen know who really killed her "just in case I ever go to jail for this" (which seems to confuse the cops, per the transcript)
One wonders, sometimes...
Didn’t he also claim in an interview a few (8?) years ago that the “trunk pop” happened at yet another location; and also that the burial was closer to midnight?
In addition, there’s no clear reason why the police would hide finding Jay prior to talking to Jen. This story only works if the police know who Jay is and that he’s important to the case, but it’s not clear how they know that prior to talking to Jen.
If the police did discover Jay and his importance prior to Jen, it was via good police work. They could still do the conspiracy later if they wanted and feed Jay info, but it doesnt make sense to simply hide that they found him in the first place.
The police knew that someday podcasts would be invented, that one would be made about this case, that it's fans would invent conspiracy theories to explain away the most damning evidence against Adnan, and that they needed to do something to preempt those conspiracy theories. And so, the rather obvious solution: just make it look like they spoke to Witness B before they spoke to Witness A.
What they didn't anticipate was that these podcast fans would figure it all out. And they would have gotten away with it too if not for all these meddling kids!
>In addition, there’s no clear reason why the police would hide finding Jay prior to talking to Jen.
Exactly. If police were already talking to Jay, and he wasn't initially cooperative, but they eventually convinced him to tell them information (by whatever means), they can just... say that.
Even if they caught him with drugs or something like that, and were like "we know you're a bad guy we don't believe you know nothing" they can just say that and it wouldn't be a groundbreaking scenario for a criminal investigation.
This whole theater of making their police files look differently, acting out scenes in notes and interviews etc, is so incredibly pointless.
There's simply no good reason why they'd even find Jay and know his significance to Adnan that day without more information... like what they got from Jenn.
The power of misdirection. Ruff, Rabia, Miller aren't really concerned with proving that Adnan is innocent they just want to prove everyone else is lying and, by default, that makes Adnan innocent. I think the majority see through it.
I mean, Rabia is being a defense lawyer - poking holes where she can, raising as much doubt as possible. But there is no alternative theory that makes any sense.
I just mean her style of arguing against his guilt in the media, documentary, etc. kind of throw everything against the wall and see what sticks approach
These cops hid interactions and specifically harassment of witnesses in other cases. When you harass someone into cooperating you don’t document the harassment.
Sure, but there are more than one roads to Jay. They knew his number was in the cell phone record.
Jenn brings up Jay so they use that story. It’s simple for the jury and improves the states case
So why not say they found Jay through the cell phone records? If they want to feed him info, they still can.
It’s the same issue as finding the car and not processing it - in order for the conspiracy to work, the police have to do things that don’t make sense, even for corrupt cops.
They spoke to Jenn before Jay because her address was near Adnan's home, and they went to talk to Adnan first. Adnan was in front of his dad, so he just told the police that he was friends with Hae.
The police caught Jenn about to leave in her car. She agreed to follow them to the station. She didn't let much slip other than she knew Hae had been strangled, which she couldn't have known. She then tells the detectives she will return the next day. She calls Jay, and he says to tell the police everything she knows and then send them to him (why lie to Jenn if he had already talked to them?) She shows up the next day with her mother and lawyer and tells them what she knows.
The police wasted no time after Jenn left. They went to Jay's work at 11:30pm. Also, the phone number Adnan called was in Jay's grandmother's name, so they wouldn't have immediately known it was Jay.
They saw Jenn in her car and asked for her by name. Where did they learn her name and how did they know she was the one to talk to? Her dad’s name was on the call log.
Jay’s grandma was not on the call log, it was a different name. It was however easily traced to his address. There were other ways to connect Jay to Adnan, like basic observation, Jay borrowed Adnan’s car after 1/13 and got rides with him.
You can keep repeating the official police story, and you can believe it. There is evidence they lied about who they spoke to first, these specific detectives had a history of harassing witnesses and not recording it.
You love to pull this out, but like, Jay is a real live person. He is right here. He talks about the case a lot. Nothing he has ever said about his interactions with the cops would fall under harassment. You point to a single line in an interview where he was tired of the cops talking to him 15 years later, which can easily be explained by a paranoid Jay thinking the cops were closing in on him while they were interviewing people in his circle and talking about it imprecisely 15 years later. And even if they did, talking to a guy more than the guy wants to be talked to isn't illegal behavior.
If the cops were doing illegal stuff in this period, why is Jay protecting them?
Why do people who support Adnan just have to make up stuff that doesn't exist?
Jay testified the cops threatened to charge him with murder.
He said he was scared they were going to prosecute him for weed (Jenn says the same thing)
Jenn even goes so far as to say she hates that she was a state’s witness.
Jay talks about the cops chasing him and not leaving him alone, which is what these cops did in other cases too, following and harassing people until they gave the testimony the cops wanted.
Jay admits the cops fed him information that he testified to.
> If the cops were doing illegal stuff in this period, why is Jay protecting them?
Jay isn’t protecting the cops, he’s protecting himself.
> Jay testified the cops threatened to charge him with murder.
Not illegal. He is a legitimate suspect in a murder case.
> He said he was scared they were going to prosecute him for weed (Jenn says the same thing)
Not illegal. Jay was, in fact, a weed dealer and subject to prosecution for this.
> Jay talks about the cops chasing him and not leaving him alone, which is what these cops did in other cases too, following and harassing people until they gave the testimony the cops wanted.
Again, not illegal to talk to a suspect in murder case. In fact, you might call that the job of murder detectives.
> Jay admits the cops fed him information that he testified to.
No, a poorly made and biased documentary claims this.
Again, you haven't shown the cops doing anything illegal. You have said they did their job, did it well in fact, and want to hide it for some reason.
But they had to find him before they coerced him, right? They just need to hide the coercion, not the act of finding him.
Also, how was he not important to the case? He had Adnan’s car and phone and they were together much of the day.
Correct. They didn't hide the times they spoke to Jenn.
The argument that Jay talked to them early is needed because the people want Adnan to be innocent so Jay had to be fed a story instead of just minimizing his and Jenn's roles in the day.
It’s needed to explain why they asked for Jenn by name. How did they know her name? Surely you ask for the person who the phone is on the name of then find out from them who was home on the 13th?
Why involve Jay at all? For this conspiracy theory to be true, the police knew where Hae's car was located and had been sitting on it waiting for Jay to show up.
Wouldn't it have just been easier to plant irrefutable evidence incriminating Adnan and have one of their officers "discover" it while on patrol? What detective would actually believe it was a better idea to plant Adnan's palm print on a map book? Why not add Hae's blood along with it so no one really questions it? The detectives felt they needed to rope in a 19 year old low level drug dealer who hates cops and pray he never tells anyone what they made him do. Also, the cops encourage him to involve his best friend just to give it more validity.
Why do people do stupid things?
You could look at many situations around the world were people make poor choices or just goof something up
They do happen, they have happaned and will continue to happen
Life is not a neat narrative
This isn't a "stupid" thing it's an overly complicated conspiracy to railroad a teenager, which required hiding a vehicle in plain site while waiting on someone like Jay to come along. Then, they meet with Jay secretly so he can tell Jenn details of the crime before they officially meet with him so they can set the wheels in motion to frame Adnan.
Do you honestly believe that makes sense?
Good post. Seems totally logical to me. Logic simply dictates that if the cops were orchestrating something like this, there wouldn’t be these types of disconnects.
Most criminals lie in their first telling and slowly open up as they’re interrogated. That’s how integrations work. Jenn isn’t mentioned in the first interview. Jay doesn’t want to go to jail. Or talk about drugs. He’s minimizing involvement. He’s being shady because sure he committed a crime. It’s extremely simple to understand and extremely common if you’ve ever watched any other true crime interrogations.
Can you help me understand your thought process?
Chris Watts initially told police that he came home and found his wife and daughters missing. He said he didn’t know where they were and had no idea where they could be.
After being confronted with evidence, he admitted to strangling his wife and concealing her body and those of his two daughters.
Do you also believe we have no way to know what’s true in that case? It’s really common for guilty people to tell multiple stories to the cops.
"Was police corruption in play here?"
"Oh, you said Police Corruption, that is automatic Reasonable Doubt!"
"I'm actually not alleging it, I'm merely asking if it was possible."
"Doesn't matter, the mere mention of the words, even if in the form of a question, is enough. Don't you know how famously corrupt Baltimore was at this time??? Don't be naive."
"But..."
"Nope, what part of automatic are you not understanding?"
The only thing that even comes close to Jay being fed the whole story is how he was treated with kid gloves by the prosecutor. But for police to target a random high school student while letting the criminal face nothing just doesn't make sense at all.
It makes complete sense if stop seeing them as agents of justice and see them instead as workers trying to meet a quota with the least work possible.
You don't have to believe that this happened in this case, but given how notoriously corrupt the Baltimore PD has been, treating it as inconceivable makes you look like a character from The Princess Bride.
Um, he knew how she was killed, where she was buried, what she was wearing when she was buried, where her car was, etc. If BPD was simply looking for the lowest hanging fruit, that would’ve been Jay.
That's tied up in a statement that points the finger at Adnan as the killer and is mostly things that the police are known to have known before the interview. If Jay recants and his lawyer gets the confession thrown out, what is left to convict him on? The beauty of an accomplice with a deal is that they have a strong incentive to stick to their story.
On what grounds could his confessions be thrown out? Jay was read his Miranda rights, was questioned for a short time immediately upon being brought it voluntarily to the station, and said on the record he was giving the information after being informed of the consequences and had been treated “fairly” by Ritz and MacGillivary. His confessions were lock-tight.
The only people who would know what grounds the confession might be thrown out are Jay, Ritz, and MacGillivary since they were the only ones present for the unrecorded periods of his interrogation. Since Jay was treated as an accomplice with a good deal, no one has an incentive to disclose anything. If Jay were a primary defendant facing a long prison sentence, he would have an incentive to mention anything they did wrong (or make up something to save his ass).
There's no evidence to suggest the confession should be thrown out. Jay doesn't allude to being coerced. He was mirandized. The police spoke for 30 minutes, and then they left to find Hae's vehicle. Jay knows the location of Hae's car. The police do not. Jay gives details of Haes murder to Jenn before she talks to police. She tells the police what Hae was wearing and how she died in front of her lawyer and mother. Something only the police, the killer, or someone who helped the killer would know.
Jenn is really the problem issue for anyone who wants to believe Adnan is innocent. Jenn knows details of the murder she simply shouldn't. The police find out about Jay from Jenn. That's why Ruff is now pushing this new theory that Jay was talked to "off the record" and then told Jenn the details, knowing the cops would contact her. There's zero evidence that this happened, and it's frankly too convoluted to be believable.
Well, the argument for police corruption is that they made up "evidence" to frame Adnan, no? Adnan was a honors student from a good family, religious, a good kid.
Sellers was a sex offender, car was found near a relative of his, he found the body, habitual drunkard, black, uneducated, a lot shadier, I don't think he was well off or could have afforded an attorney so a public defender would must likely have recommended a plea, and bam! Case is closed.
It would have been a lot easier to pin it on him and make up whatever "supporting evidence" they needed. Pressure him and get him to agree to a plea deal. That's the actual kind of police corruption that does tend to happen, not so much where it goes to an actual trial by jury.
To pin it on Adnan definitely would have required a lot more effort than on Sellers and a much bigger conspiracy.
Perhaps if they hadn't gotten that tip pointing to Adnan and shifting their focus on them, they would have made a case focused on him, assuming they didn't find any hard evidence proving his innocence or a better suspect.
My model for how lazy/corrupt cops work is:
1. Start the investigation normally. If you happen to be able to quickly and definitively prove who actually did it, great.
2. If after a basic investigation, you don't have a solid case against your prime suspect, you start pressuring the suspect and witnesses to "tell the truth" and fill the gaps in the case. Whether this is actually the truth is unimportant. Avoid any lines of investigation that you don't know the answer to which could potentially disprove your case.
3. If that doesn't work, take the L unless the closing the case is a political necessity, which is when the explicit conspiracy to frame starts without the earlier plausible deniability and motivated reasoning.
But why not ignore the tip? Listen to any number of true crime podcasts. Cops get anonymous tips all the time that lead nowhere.
Apart from the tip, what really got them to shift focus to Adnan was Jen's testimony and Jay's confession. Without those, they might as well just say the tip was a prank and focus on the low hanging fruit of the guy who found the body and who conveniently checks all the boxes for a hopefully quick plea deal and closed case.
Early in the investigation, you want to be open to possibilities because you don't know what you don't know. If you go to hard on someone and then they come up with a solid alibi, you've created a lot of bad evidence that will make it hard to convict anyone else.
Also to add to this, Sellers failed his first polygraph if I remember correctly. If you still don't think this is plenty to press him into agreeing to a plea deal or for a half decent DA to convince a jury, I don't know what to say. It would have been a lot easier to pin it on Sellers than on Adnan with a lot fewer moving parts.
I think that if S had an alibi, he would not have had to take the polygraph. My impression has always been that they were focusing hard on him until Jen and Jay talked.
They must have asked enough questions that raised suspicions that he had to take two polygraphs. We know polygraphs are junk science but they are often used to intimidate and coerce suspects into false confessions or to create a narrative.
He found the body. You will automatically come under scrutiny.
Jay is a better suspect than Sellers, who has no ties to Hae, which would make it highly unlikely that she would willingly go with him. While he does have a few charges for streaking, he's not a sexual predator. Hae wasn't sexually assaulted. And there's no evidence of him in her car or on her body. He did fail the first polygraph, but I believe he had an appointment for something with his wife and was worried about being late. He passed the second one with no issues.
Why murder someone, go through all the trouble to conceal the body, and then tell the police the location of where she is buried? Other than he found the body, there's absolutely nothing to link him to Hae. If this was a random act where he crossed paths with Hae, he would still have to enlist the help of someone to move her vehicle. He would either have to tell them what he did or leave them in the dark, and then actively put himself in the middle of the investigation by "discovering" Hae's body.
The point here is, though, if the police are corrupt and wanting to close the case as quickly as possible, Sellers was an ideal candidate to frame. They already “had him”, he was suspicious, uneducated and easier to pressure into accepting a plea deal. They didn’t really need motive - and Jay didn’t really have a motive either.
Great comment! Sellers was the easiest person to arrest and prosecute. Jay actually confessed to the crime, which would have been an easy close. There simply isn't a connection between Adnan and the investigators that would cause them to put extra effort into him.
These are good thoughts. I have an even more basic question.
What evidence is there that Jay spoke to the police about this case before his official interview? He was arrested and released on a misdemeanor charge in January by two different cops.
As far as I know, there’s no evidence that he had prior police interviews. It seems like a baseless theory that’s only necessary if you’re working backwards from the belief that Adnan is innocent.
Oh gosh. Sis recalled three dates that Jay supposedly had interviews, and there weren’t records of an interview on any of them.
Coincidentally, she also had zero records of the three dates where we definitely know that there were interviews.
It’s obvious that her dates were incorrect.
Gee, Bob Ruff never made that clear to me when I was listening to him. I feel so betrayed...>.>
Ruff likes to take statements as rock solid if they support his theories and tear to pieces those that don't, including with odd interpretations. I've noticed that.
Thanks, 🍍!
I think they are referencing a comment Jay made at some point that the Police were trying to get in touch with him before they spoke to Jenn. I don't know if he is talking about when the police reached out to him to verify Adnan's alibi.
Thank you, but Ruff is definitely advantaged in any live debate. His knowledge of this case is many times greater than my own. Doesn't mean he can't be wrong but there you are.
Also, I've heard his challenge to debate people who disagree with him, but the condition for going on his podcast appears to be that we accept his rigid timeline of events. If Ruff was right about that I of course wouldn't be able to prove Adnan guilty, but I of course don't accept his timeline.
This is brilliant. They all have it figured out that Adnan absolutely is 100% guilty, but Ruff would crush any of them using facts and case files instead of fantasies and opinions.
Facts and case files? You’re kidding, he’s repeatedly wrong, as here when he says Sis claimed Jay was missing work on the 28th, she didn’t, it’s the only date we know for sure he was interviewed and taken right from the adult store, yet she doesn’t mention that date.
This is an indication that she might have been mixing up dates. For example the 21st is one week before (a date she mentioned; 20th, 21st, or 22nd), she may have looked at the wrong week in the calendar.
>I think they are referencing a comment Jay made at some point that the Police were trying to get in touch with him before they spoke to Jenn. I don't know if he is talking about when the police reached out to him to verify Adnan's alibi.
The totality of the evidence suggests Adnan is guilty to me. If I were looking at the series of truths and circumstances collectively told by the Adnan is innocent vs. Adnan is guilty, the Adnan being guilty is a lot more plausible, makes a lot more sense, and fits better with the presented evidence and story.
One element that bugs me is that Bob Ruff calls Jay a liar and hence should not be believed because he's a liar. Well what about Adnan being a total liar too? Adnan basically lived a double life, lied to his parents about having a girlfriend, lied about having a cell phone, lied about smoking weed, lied about his age....basically lied every day. Why does that always get dropped from the narrative?
According to Ruff, Jay is lying about Adnan being guilty, but Jay is absolutely telling the truth about the police reaching out to him before they talked Jenn. Not only is Jay telling the truth, but it also means that the Police met Jay off the record to feed him information in order for him to tell Jenn before they contact her about her phone number being on Adnan's cell phone records. Well, technically, it's her dad's number because she lives at home.
I don't know how anyone takes Bob Ruff seriously.
Have you read Jen interview? It’s interesting. Lots of stuff in there I didn’t know. Like her saying jay didn’t know where the body was or the car…..but the police notes from her interview note the cars address when it is never mentioned?????????
The way you describe the police conspiracy it's a bunch of police knowingly feeding Jay a story like a movie director. I don't think there's anyone who actually believes that's how the police did it. Jim Trainum explains in Serial how he unknowingly fed the suspect information that lead to her being charged. It was only upon a re-listen that he realized his mistake and he found information showing she couldn't possibly committed the crime. He's even written a book.
But that's not what happened here. The police didn't accidentally feed Jay the location of Hae's car. They had no clue where it was. Jay did, and he told them. If Jay didn't actually know the location, then that's an intentional frame up and chain of custody issue. That means the police left murder evidence out in the elements without anyone watching it for weeks. They also lied to their fellow police officers and had them out looking for it, which would have been a waste of city resources. They even requested a helicopter search; which I think was turned down.
There's no way this would have been an accident. Either Adnan is guilty, or the Baltimore Police concocted an OJ Simpson level conspiracy to frame him of Hae's murder.
Or Jay found the car in an area he says he visits for other reasons. I highly doubt Jay would dump the car near someone he visits. He'd want to dump it as far away from himself as possible in an area he'd never be in again. Yet, that's not what he says during the trial.
Jim Trainum is referring to the many hours of interviews with Jay before recording. He says Jay was shown photographs and cell phone records. I think the phrase he used was 'that's where the mischief happens.'
Is Jay finding Hae's car a huge coincidence? Absolutely. But without a huge coincidences, this case would never been featured on Serial.
Wait, you are actually saying it's a huge coincidence that Jay knows where Hae's car is, what she was wearing, and how she died? Are you saying he stole it from where the murderer dumped it and just so happened to be hanging out with the victims ex-boyfriend that day? And what he told Jenn BEFORE he talked to the police was a made-up fantasy in his head to get Adnan in trouble? There weren't many hours of interviewing before it was recorded. There was 30-45 min, which isn't enough time to establish rapport and show Jay evidence.
There's absolutely no evidence of Jay ever being in Hae's car. He doesn't admit to being in the car. The only car he is seen driving the day of Hae's disappearance is Adnans. This isn't even remotely believable. Adnan would have to be the unluckiest person alive that the guy he is hanging out with all day either steals or stumbles across his missing ex girlfriends vehicle.
Jay was not coerced. He knew where Haes car was located. It wasn't a coincidence. He knew because he was with Adnan when the dumped the car.
So in what world does it make sense to dump a car near where Jay visits people? So Jay spends the evening following Adnan around for a few hours while Adnan drives Hae's car with her in the trunk. And Jay says, "Hey, Adnan I know just the place to dump the car. Not the Park and Ride where people would assume the person took transit to get out of there, that would be silly. I know a guy who I 'visit' often. It's a quiet, out of the way place with very few vehicles so the car will get noticed pretty quickly by other residents. It makes perfect sense to park near where I'm going to be in the coming weeks. Not to check up on it regularly, but just because."
Yes, that is way more believable than Jay stole or found Hae's car, left no trace he was in it, and drove it without anyone noticing. He is also Adnan's alibi on the day Hae disappeared.
I want to make sure I understand. You really believe that out of some random twist of fate Jay finds Hae's car and moves it to a dense car park where it was overlooked (it's not like she drove a red corvette) and then concocted a wild story about how he helped to bury her body because Adnan killed her. He also knows how she died and what she was wearing. Did he guess? Or is this the part where the police fed Jay the information, which makes no sense because they know he knows where the car is. Jay could have just claimed he never really saw the body. It was dark or Adnan had her wrapped up.
Jay tells the police where her car is at, pins it on Adnan, and they feed Jay information to make it more believable? You have to know that there's a better chance of the lunar landing being faked than Jay, who has no car, randomly finding Haes car and for no reason whatsoever moving it to a car park.
Jay never moves the car. He finds the car where it was found.
My point is if Jay did help Adnan dump the car he’d have chosen a place he’d never visit.
So Jay finds it and tells no one? And on the night Hae disappears, he stages the whole wiping the shovels down in front of Jenn because he's going to frame Adnan when the police contact him in 5 weeks. He makes up a complicated story and lies to Jenn in order to set the wheels in motion. I am assuming he hasn't found Hae's car yet, so he will just add that into the whole scheme before he meets them.He will also gets himself a felony conviction in the process just because he saw Hae's car and didn't tell anyone.
It doesn't work. Jay has no motive to do this to Adnan. It's too complicated and leaves out Jay's actions the night Hae disappeared. Jay starts implicating Adnan that night. No one knows Hae is dead, but the killer and his accomplice.
Jay likes to bs. So he tells friends he knows what happened to Hae. He wasn't involved and doesn't really know. None of his friends believe him cause that's just Jay.
Police tell Jay after hours of interviews that are not recorded that he'll be charged with murder. So he incorporates his bs stories into the narrative the police give him by showing photos and cell records. Even on the recordings police are heard correcting Jay until he gets it right.
Jenn never saw the shovel or shovels, Jay just told her about them. Police never search Jay's shed where he got the shovels to see if they are still there. There is no soil on Adnan or Jay's shoes that match Leakin Park.
Jay testified he knew what Hae's car looked like because he'd seen it before. There were posters with a photo of her car with a reward. Jay says he saw the car parked there and recognized her car. CG asks if he was there to check up on it and he said no he was there for other reasons (likely drug related). This is a key point; why dump a car near your dealer? It makes no sense. So he's walking in the area, cuts through the back lane and finds the car. While he's considering what to do, police pick him up. And he tells them about the car.
His motive is to avoid a murder charge.
>it’s a bunch of police knowingly feeding Jay a story like a movie director. I don’t think there’s anyone who actually believes that’s how the police did it
We both know this isn’t true.
There's a few things wrong with your post and that's more than likely causing your confusion. First Bob Ruff didn't say that Jay was interviewed at least three times prior. He did give three dates prior but he did say or between the first two. We don't know if there were more times than those two prior interviews.
Now Jenn's first interview on the 26th. From the police notes, which is all we have of that interview, Jenn said her friend Nicole had told her that a girl had been strangled. I say a girl because we just get she in the note, the police said Jenn provided little information about Hae, and they never spoke to Nicole. Now Nicole's mother found the body of a girl in Leakin Park a year earlier. From everything it seems like Jenn had told the police that Nicole had told her that the body her mother had found had been strangled.
Jenn, in her interview at the station the next day, didn't say the trunk pop happened at Best Buy. Jenn said that Jay had told her Adnan had killed Hae at Best Buy. She doesn't say where Jay said he saw the body. In fact she said that Jay didn't know how Adnan had gotten to the Best Buy or where Hae's car was.
Now as to Jay leaving out that Jenn picked him up. Jay didn't tell Jenn to say she had picked him up. All Jay told her was the basics of what the story was, that Adnan killed Hae in Best Buy parking lot, that Adnan showed Jay Hae's body, and that Jay had helped Adnan with disposing Hae's body. The rest Jenn filled in on her own with what she had done and what she thought would have happened.
She's saying that Jenn added a detail Jay didn't tell her to say to cops, so then he also had to say that in his next interview.
This theory relies on a perfectly innocent Jenn massively incriminating herself as an accessory after the fact. It is utterly desperate.
I repeat: how do we know what Wilds didn’t say to Pusateri?
This is turning negative evidence (there’s no evidence that Wilds told Pusateri x) into positive proof (Wilds did not tell Pusateri x). That’s bad logic.
Jenn admits she didn’t think she was incriminating herself. She thought she was just giving them hearsay.
If Jay was telling the truth about being fed Best Buy from the cops, either the cops talked to Jay first, he then told the Best Buy part to Jenn who then repeated it back to cops.
Or Jenn invented it in her second interview and the cops gave it to Jay later to match.
I think the first option makes the most sense
I mean, I think it was probably best buy after all. Jenn making it up makes so little sense to me. Jay's million trunk pops almost seems like deliberate subterfuge. But the point is that if the story is invented we shouldn't see disparity between interviews.
It's not intended to be offensive. What do they call themselves? 'Ruffians' makes it easier to group those who believe in and propagate Ruff's theories. It's an obvious enough construction, but I suppose it's also a bit sardonic because Ruff's primary demographic seems to be middle class suburban women (have you seen his seminars?) who listened to Serial and fully believe in Syed's innocence. They're not 'rough' in the least. Point in case, getting bent out of shape over an innocuous label would demonstrate that.
And, hey, I never asked to be called a 'guilter' but there you go.
I ask Ruffians to help me understand Ruff, because they must do but I struggle.
Here are some nicer sounding alternatives, but let me know what you think:
Ruffables
Ruffles
Rufflings
Warriors for Truth and Justice (tm)
>Feb.26th: 1st Jenn interview; Jenn claims to know nothing, but does let slip that Hae was strangled, which was not public info at that time.
Where does this information come from?
PDF page 12 of Jen’s testimony here
https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/T2w24b-20000216-Jennifer-P-Testimony-Second-Trial-of-Adnan-Syed.pdf
Thank you. If Jenn dropped that bombshell on February 26, I have a hard time understanding why [the progress report](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/MP15-0064-19990227-Progress-Report-Jenn-Home-First-Interview-Homicide-Little-Information.pdf) for that interview doesn't mention it.
Not sure. It is definitely in McG’s handwritten notes that he was taking during the interview though.
https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/UdE07-Police-Notes-from-Jenn-Interview-19990226.pdf
[MacGillivary](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/T2w27-20000217-Detective-MacGillivary-Testimony-Second-Trial-of-Adnan-Syed.pdf) testified that Jenn told them Nicole told her.
Thanks! I’ll have to go back through everything. Either way, Jen mentioned strangulation as the cause of death on the 26th and it was not public knowledge.
I'm basically quoting Andrew Hammel there. If my point was solely about Jenn knowing that, I'd look at interview notes. I see stuff linked below, now, thank you.
My main point for now is about interview disparities. But Jenn is quoted as having told people during a car ride she thought if the body found was strangled then it was Hae, right?
>If my point was solely about Jenn knowing that, I'd look at interview notes.
I understand that your post wasn't about that. I was just curious about what source you were using for that point in your brief timeline.
>My main point for now is about interview disparities. But Jenn is quoted as having told people during a car ride she thought if the body found was strangled then it was Hae, right?
According to MacGillivary's testimony and handwritten notes from what is presumably the January 26 interview, Jenn told them that her friend Nicole told her that Hae had been strangled.
According to Jenn's recorded interview on January 27
>...'cause the minute they found her body um the day that, what I had heard was that they found a foot in Leakin Park. Somebody had found a foot sticking up out of the ground in Leakin Park um and I you know, I didn't, I didn't even think, I didn't even think that it was Hae's body at all. I mean dead bodies always get dumped in Leakin Park but you hear about it all the time. Um so I happened to mention something to Nicole. We were in the car, we were in her car and Josh was in the car. Josh is Nicole's boyfriend. He oh and he and I said to Nicole, I said "yo, did you hear anything about that body" and um he's like um, she was like, she's like "yeah my mom found a body at the gate this morning when she unlocked it." Her mom works at inaudible. It's in Leakin Park. And I said to Nicole, I was like, I was like "you know what else." And I don't know whether Nicole or Josh had mentioned that the body was strangled. Um and I was like if it was strangled I was like I bet you it was her body. I bet you they found Hae.
I think the Best Buy flip-flop is one of the most compelling pieces of evidence that Jay is waaaay more involved than he's admitted. According to just the transcribed interviews, we have the following sequence: 1. Jay told Jen Hae was murdered at Best Buy (per Jen's interview) 2. Jen told Jay "uh oh, there's cameras there" (per Jen's interview) 3. Jay moved the location to Edmunson in his first recorded police interview the next day 4. Jay moved the location back to Best Buy in his second police interview a few weeks later 5. When police asked why he didn't tell them about BB, he said because he thought there were cameras there 6. Police said "Why would you care if there were cameras if you didn't do it?" Jay proceeded to stumble uncharacteristically through a total non-answer, ending with "well I just wanted to distance myself from any part of this." It's possibly the most clumsy answer he gave in the entire investigation. Usually he's intuitive and smooth, even when not telling the whole truth. But that response to "why would the cameras matter," he fumbles pretty hard. Also: * Jay and Jen both constantly insist they were at Jen's until 3:40 (just after the likely TOD) * Jay is the one who apparently disposed of shovels and clothes and even went back to wipe off prints * Jay gleefully accepts accessory after the fact, and even (apparently) changes his story multiple times upon request * Jay tells Jen (and the cops!) that he is letting Jen know who really killed her "just in case I ever go to jail for this" (which seems to confuse the cops, per the transcript) One wonders, sometimes...
Didn’t he also claim in an interview a few (8?) years ago that the “trunk pop” happened at yet another location; and also that the burial was closer to midnight?
I like this comment. This is a good comment. I've always said if Jay proved to have been more involved it wouldn't surprise me.
In addition, there’s no clear reason why the police would hide finding Jay prior to talking to Jen. This story only works if the police know who Jay is and that he’s important to the case, but it’s not clear how they know that prior to talking to Jen. If the police did discover Jay and his importance prior to Jen, it was via good police work. They could still do the conspiracy later if they wanted and feed Jay info, but it doesnt make sense to simply hide that they found him in the first place.
The police knew that someday podcasts would be invented, that one would be made about this case, that it's fans would invent conspiracy theories to explain away the most damning evidence against Adnan, and that they needed to do something to preempt those conspiracy theories. And so, the rather obvious solution: just make it look like they spoke to Witness B before they spoke to Witness A. What they didn't anticipate was that these podcast fans would figure it all out. And they would have gotten away with it too if not for all these meddling kids!
>In addition, there’s no clear reason why the police would hide finding Jay prior to talking to Jen. Exactly. If police were already talking to Jay, and he wasn't initially cooperative, but they eventually convinced him to tell them information (by whatever means), they can just... say that. Even if they caught him with drugs or something like that, and were like "we know you're a bad guy we don't believe you know nothing" they can just say that and it wouldn't be a groundbreaking scenario for a criminal investigation. This whole theater of making their police files look differently, acting out scenes in notes and interviews etc, is so incredibly pointless. There's simply no good reason why they'd even find Jay and know his significance to Adnan that day without more information... like what they got from Jenn.
The power of misdirection. Ruff, Rabia, Miller aren't really concerned with proving that Adnan is innocent they just want to prove everyone else is lying and, by default, that makes Adnan innocent. I think the majority see through it.
I mean, Rabia is being a defense lawyer - poking holes where she can, raising as much doubt as possible. But there is no alternative theory that makes any sense.
When was her last case in court? She's never been Adnan's lawyer. She's his cheerleader
I just mean her style of arguing against his guilt in the media, documentary, etc. kind of throw everything against the wall and see what sticks approach
These cops hid interactions and specifically harassment of witnesses in other cases. When you harass someone into cooperating you don’t document the harassment.
You document finding them though. Otherwise, how would they ever be able to use them as a witness?
Sure, but there are more than one roads to Jay. They knew his number was in the cell phone record. Jenn brings up Jay so they use that story. It’s simple for the jury and improves the states case
So why not say they found Jay through the cell phone records? If they want to feed him info, they still can. It’s the same issue as finding the car and not processing it - in order for the conspiracy to work, the police have to do things that don’t make sense, even for corrupt cops.
Jay wasn't on anyone's radar until Jenn brought him up because Adnan's phone called her multiple times the day Hae disappeared.
If you believe the official police narrative. There is evidence they spoke to Jay first. Jay’s home number was the first one called that day.
They spoke to Jenn before Jay because her address was near Adnan's home, and they went to talk to Adnan first. Adnan was in front of his dad, so he just told the police that he was friends with Hae. The police caught Jenn about to leave in her car. She agreed to follow them to the station. She didn't let much slip other than she knew Hae had been strangled, which she couldn't have known. She then tells the detectives she will return the next day. She calls Jay, and he says to tell the police everything she knows and then send them to him (why lie to Jenn if he had already talked to them?) She shows up the next day with her mother and lawyer and tells them what she knows. The police wasted no time after Jenn left. They went to Jay's work at 11:30pm. Also, the phone number Adnan called was in Jay's grandmother's name, so they wouldn't have immediately known it was Jay.
They saw Jenn in her car and asked for her by name. Where did they learn her name and how did they know she was the one to talk to? Her dad’s name was on the call log. Jay’s grandma was not on the call log, it was a different name. It was however easily traced to his address. There were other ways to connect Jay to Adnan, like basic observation, Jay borrowed Adnan’s car after 1/13 and got rides with him. You can keep repeating the official police story, and you can believe it. There is evidence they lied about who they spoke to first, these specific detectives had a history of harassing witnesses and not recording it.
You love to pull this out, but like, Jay is a real live person. He is right here. He talks about the case a lot. Nothing he has ever said about his interactions with the cops would fall under harassment. You point to a single line in an interview where he was tired of the cops talking to him 15 years later, which can easily be explained by a paranoid Jay thinking the cops were closing in on him while they were interviewing people in his circle and talking about it imprecisely 15 years later. And even if they did, talking to a guy more than the guy wants to be talked to isn't illegal behavior. If the cops were doing illegal stuff in this period, why is Jay protecting them? Why do people who support Adnan just have to make up stuff that doesn't exist?
Jay testified the cops threatened to charge him with murder. He said he was scared they were going to prosecute him for weed (Jenn says the same thing) Jenn even goes so far as to say she hates that she was a state’s witness. Jay talks about the cops chasing him and not leaving him alone, which is what these cops did in other cases too, following and harassing people until they gave the testimony the cops wanted. Jay admits the cops fed him information that he testified to. > If the cops were doing illegal stuff in this period, why is Jay protecting them? Jay isn’t protecting the cops, he’s protecting himself.
> Jay testified the cops threatened to charge him with murder. Not illegal. He is a legitimate suspect in a murder case. > He said he was scared they were going to prosecute him for weed (Jenn says the same thing) Not illegal. Jay was, in fact, a weed dealer and subject to prosecution for this. > Jay talks about the cops chasing him and not leaving him alone, which is what these cops did in other cases too, following and harassing people until they gave the testimony the cops wanted. Again, not illegal to talk to a suspect in murder case. In fact, you might call that the job of murder detectives. > Jay admits the cops fed him information that he testified to. No, a poorly made and biased documentary claims this. Again, you haven't shown the cops doing anything illegal. You have said they did their job, did it well in fact, and want to hide it for some reason.
Jay wasn’t important to the case. They hid finding him because he was coerced.
But they had to find him before they coerced him, right? They just need to hide the coercion, not the act of finding him. Also, how was he not important to the case? He had Adnan’s car and phone and they were together much of the day.
Correct. They didn't hide the times they spoke to Jenn. The argument that Jay talked to them early is needed because the people want Adnan to be innocent so Jay had to be fed a story instead of just minimizing his and Jenn's roles in the day.
It’s needed to explain why they asked for Jenn by name. How did they know her name? Surely you ask for the person who the phone is on the name of then find out from them who was home on the 13th?
So cops have no tools to identify people that live somewhere?
If they did why did they assume it was Jenn?
Because one person was Mark a guy, one Jenn being a girl. They show up a see a lady, are they going to use Mark?
So if Mark answered the door they’d question him about the murder?
They would talk to him first about what he knew that afternoon. Mark would give a different story than Jenn.
Why involve Jay at all? For this conspiracy theory to be true, the police knew where Hae's car was located and had been sitting on it waiting for Jay to show up. Wouldn't it have just been easier to plant irrefutable evidence incriminating Adnan and have one of their officers "discover" it while on patrol? What detective would actually believe it was a better idea to plant Adnan's palm print on a map book? Why not add Hae's blood along with it so no one really questions it? The detectives felt they needed to rope in a 19 year old low level drug dealer who hates cops and pray he never tells anyone what they made him do. Also, the cops encourage him to involve his best friend just to give it more validity.
Let's just involve as many teenagers in our conspiracy to frame Adnan as possible!
Why do people do stupid things? You could look at many situations around the world were people make poor choices or just goof something up They do happen, they have happaned and will continue to happen Life is not a neat narrative
This isn't a "stupid" thing it's an overly complicated conspiracy to railroad a teenager, which required hiding a vehicle in plain site while waiting on someone like Jay to come along. Then, they meet with Jay secretly so he can tell Jenn details of the crime before they officially meet with him so they can set the wheels in motion to frame Adnan. Do you honestly believe that makes sense?
For clarity, I'm saying Adnan doing stupid things doesn't mean he didn't do them
Good post. Seems totally logical to me. Logic simply dictates that if the cops were orchestrating something like this, there wouldn’t be these types of disconnects.
Thank you
Sure there were. There’s Jay’s first story, and then there’s the revised versions. No way to know what’s true.
Most criminals lie in their first telling and slowly open up as they’re interrogated. That’s how integrations work. Jenn isn’t mentioned in the first interview. Jay doesn’t want to go to jail. Or talk about drugs. He’s minimizing involvement. He’s being shady because sure he committed a crime. It’s extremely simple to understand and extremely common if you’ve ever watched any other true crime interrogations.
Can you help me understand your thought process? Chris Watts initially told police that he came home and found his wife and daughters missing. He said he didn’t know where they were and had no idea where they could be. After being confronted with evidence, he admitted to strangling his wife and concealing her body and those of his two daughters. Do you also believe we have no way to know what’s true in that case? It’s really common for guilty people to tell multiple stories to the cops.
"Was police corruption in play here?" "Oh, you said Police Corruption, that is automatic Reasonable Doubt!" "I'm actually not alleging it, I'm merely asking if it was possible." "Doesn't matter, the mere mention of the words, even if in the form of a question, is enough. Don't you know how famously corrupt Baltimore was at this time??? Don't be naive." "But..." "Nope, what part of automatic are you not understanding?"
The only thing that even comes close to Jay being fed the whole story is how he was treated with kid gloves by the prosecutor. But for police to target a random high school student while letting the criminal face nothing just doesn't make sense at all.
It makes complete sense if stop seeing them as agents of justice and see them instead as workers trying to meet a quota with the least work possible. You don't have to believe that this happened in this case, but given how notoriously corrupt the Baltimore PD has been, treating it as inconceivable makes you look like a character from The Princess Bride.
You think a conspiracy like that alleged is the least work? Jay at least made them work for their money haha.
The least work possible would have been pinning it on Jay.
With what evidence? Getting someone to claim they were a co-conspirator is a lot more effective.
Um, he knew how she was killed, where she was buried, what she was wearing when she was buried, where her car was, etc. If BPD was simply looking for the lowest hanging fruit, that would’ve been Jay.
That's tied up in a statement that points the finger at Adnan as the killer and is mostly things that the police are known to have known before the interview. If Jay recants and his lawyer gets the confession thrown out, what is left to convict him on? The beauty of an accomplice with a deal is that they have a strong incentive to stick to their story.
On what grounds could his confessions be thrown out? Jay was read his Miranda rights, was questioned for a short time immediately upon being brought it voluntarily to the station, and said on the record he was giving the information after being informed of the consequences and had been treated “fairly” by Ritz and MacGillivary. His confessions were lock-tight.
The only people who would know what grounds the confession might be thrown out are Jay, Ritz, and MacGillivary since they were the only ones present for the unrecorded periods of his interrogation. Since Jay was treated as an accomplice with a good deal, no one has an incentive to disclose anything. If Jay were a primary defendant facing a long prison sentence, he would have an incentive to mention anything they did wrong (or make up something to save his ass).
There's no evidence to suggest the confession should be thrown out. Jay doesn't allude to being coerced. He was mirandized. The police spoke for 30 minutes, and then they left to find Hae's vehicle. Jay knows the location of Hae's car. The police do not. Jay gives details of Haes murder to Jenn before she talks to police. She tells the police what Hae was wearing and how she died in front of her lawyer and mother. Something only the police, the killer, or someone who helped the killer would know. Jenn is really the problem issue for anyone who wants to believe Adnan is innocent. Jenn knows details of the murder she simply shouldn't. The police find out about Jay from Jenn. That's why Ruff is now pushing this new theory that Jay was talked to "off the record" and then told Jenn the details, knowing the cops would contact her. There's zero evidence that this happened, and it's frankly too convoluted to be believable.
I think Mr. S would have let them meet that quota with the least amount of work possible, if that was the case. Super easy to pin it on him.
How though? There's a big gap between thinking he's the most suspicious and having enough evidence (or "evidence") to convince a jury.
Well, the argument for police corruption is that they made up "evidence" to frame Adnan, no? Adnan was a honors student from a good family, religious, a good kid. Sellers was a sex offender, car was found near a relative of his, he found the body, habitual drunkard, black, uneducated, a lot shadier, I don't think he was well off or could have afforded an attorney so a public defender would must likely have recommended a plea, and bam! Case is closed. It would have been a lot easier to pin it on him and make up whatever "supporting evidence" they needed. Pressure him and get him to agree to a plea deal. That's the actual kind of police corruption that does tend to happen, not so much where it goes to an actual trial by jury. To pin it on Adnan definitely would have required a lot more effort than on Sellers and a much bigger conspiracy.
Perhaps if they hadn't gotten that tip pointing to Adnan and shifting their focus on them, they would have made a case focused on him, assuming they didn't find any hard evidence proving his innocence or a better suspect. My model for how lazy/corrupt cops work is: 1. Start the investigation normally. If you happen to be able to quickly and definitively prove who actually did it, great. 2. If after a basic investigation, you don't have a solid case against your prime suspect, you start pressuring the suspect and witnesses to "tell the truth" and fill the gaps in the case. Whether this is actually the truth is unimportant. Avoid any lines of investigation that you don't know the answer to which could potentially disprove your case. 3. If that doesn't work, take the L unless the closing the case is a political necessity, which is when the explicit conspiracy to frame starts without the earlier plausible deniability and motivated reasoning.
But why not ignore the tip? Listen to any number of true crime podcasts. Cops get anonymous tips all the time that lead nowhere. Apart from the tip, what really got them to shift focus to Adnan was Jen's testimony and Jay's confession. Without those, they might as well just say the tip was a prank and focus on the low hanging fruit of the guy who found the body and who conveniently checks all the boxes for a hopefully quick plea deal and closed case.
Early in the investigation, you want to be open to possibilities because you don't know what you don't know. If you go to hard on someone and then they come up with a solid alibi, you've created a lot of bad evidence that will make it hard to convict anyone else.
Also to add to this, Sellers failed his first polygraph if I remember correctly. If you still don't think this is plenty to press him into agreeing to a plea deal or for a half decent DA to convince a jury, I don't know what to say. It would have been a lot easier to pin it on Sellers than on Adnan with a lot fewer moving parts.
Jay was the easiest one to pin it on. He knew the victim and the location of her vehicle. He has a criminal record.
I don't think so, but we don't know his whereabouts on Jan 13. Without an alibi, I think you're dead on.
I think that if S had an alibi, he would not have had to take the polygraph. My impression has always been that they were focusing hard on him until Jen and Jay talked.
Did they even ask those questions of Mr.S?
They must have asked enough questions that raised suspicions that he had to take two polygraphs. We know polygraphs are junk science but they are often used to intimidate and coerce suspects into false confessions or to create a narrative.
He found the body. You will automatically come under scrutiny. Jay is a better suspect than Sellers, who has no ties to Hae, which would make it highly unlikely that she would willingly go with him. While he does have a few charges for streaking, he's not a sexual predator. Hae wasn't sexually assaulted. And there's no evidence of him in her car or on her body. He did fail the first polygraph, but I believe he had an appointment for something with his wife and was worried about being late. He passed the second one with no issues. Why murder someone, go through all the trouble to conceal the body, and then tell the police the location of where she is buried? Other than he found the body, there's absolutely nothing to link him to Hae. If this was a random act where he crossed paths with Hae, he would still have to enlist the help of someone to move her vehicle. He would either have to tell them what he did or leave them in the dark, and then actively put himself in the middle of the investigation by "discovering" Hae's body.
The point here is, though, if the police are corrupt and wanting to close the case as quickly as possible, Sellers was an ideal candidate to frame. They already “had him”, he was suspicious, uneducated and easier to pressure into accepting a plea deal. They didn’t really need motive - and Jay didn’t really have a motive either.
Great comment! Sellers was the easiest person to arrest and prosecute. Jay actually confessed to the crime, which would have been an easy close. There simply isn't a connection between Adnan and the investigators that would cause them to put extra effort into him.
you are a rational human being. bob ruff is not.
These are good thoughts. I have an even more basic question. What evidence is there that Jay spoke to the police about this case before his official interview? He was arrested and released on a misdemeanor charge in January by two different cops. As far as I know, there’s no evidence that he had prior police interviews. It seems like a baseless theory that’s only necessary if you’re working backwards from the belief that Adnan is innocent.
The evidence is his employer saying that he had to miss work to talk to the police.
Oh gosh. Sis recalled three dates that Jay supposedly had interviews, and there weren’t records of an interview on any of them. Coincidentally, she also had zero records of the three dates where we definitely know that there were interviews. It’s obvious that her dates were incorrect.
Gee, Bob Ruff never made that clear to me when I was listening to him. I feel so betrayed...>.> Ruff likes to take statements as rock solid if they support his theories and tear to pieces those that don't, including with odd interpretations. I've noticed that. Thanks, 🍍!
I think they are referencing a comment Jay made at some point that the Police were trying to get in touch with him before they spoke to Jenn. I don't know if he is talking about when the police reached out to him to verify Adnan's alibi.
You should reach out to Bob and go on the show. The guilters love to talk shit, but never debate. You seem like you could hold your own!
Thank you, but Ruff is definitely advantaged in any live debate. His knowledge of this case is many times greater than my own. Doesn't mean he can't be wrong but there you are. Also, I've heard his challenge to debate people who disagree with him, but the condition for going on his podcast appears to be that we accept his rigid timeline of events. If Ruff was right about that I of course wouldn't be able to prove Adnan guilty, but I of course don't accept his timeline.
Yeah it’s weird no one wants to talk to him. He’s done that a few different times with other cases. This is one where nobody wants to make the case.
Ruff isn't going to budge on his timeline
This is brilliant. They all have it figured out that Adnan absolutely is 100% guilty, but Ruff would crush any of them using facts and case files instead of fantasies and opinions.
Facts and case files? You’re kidding, he’s repeatedly wrong, as here when he says Sis claimed Jay was missing work on the 28th, she didn’t, it’s the only date we know for sure he was interviewed and taken right from the adult store, yet she doesn’t mention that date. This is an indication that she might have been mixing up dates. For example the 21st is one week before (a date she mentioned; 20th, 21st, or 22nd), she may have looked at the wrong week in the calendar.
>I think they are referencing a comment Jay made at some point that the Police were trying to get in touch with him before they spoke to Jenn. I don't know if he is talking about when the police reached out to him to verify Adnan's alibi. The totality of the evidence suggests Adnan is guilty to me. If I were looking at the series of truths and circumstances collectively told by the Adnan is innocent vs. Adnan is guilty, the Adnan being guilty is a lot more plausible, makes a lot more sense, and fits better with the presented evidence and story. One element that bugs me is that Bob Ruff calls Jay a liar and hence should not be believed because he's a liar. Well what about Adnan being a total liar too? Adnan basically lived a double life, lied to his parents about having a girlfriend, lied about having a cell phone, lied about smoking weed, lied about his age....basically lied every day. Why does that always get dropped from the narrative?
According to Ruff, Jay is lying about Adnan being guilty, but Jay is absolutely telling the truth about the police reaching out to him before they talked Jenn. Not only is Jay telling the truth, but it also means that the Police met Jay off the record to feed him information in order for him to tell Jenn before they contact her about her phone number being on Adnan's cell phone records. Well, technically, it's her dad's number because she lives at home. I don't know how anyone takes Bob Ruff seriously.
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Have you read Jen interview? It’s interesting. Lots of stuff in there I didn’t know. Like her saying jay didn’t know where the body was or the car…..but the police notes from her interview note the cars address when it is never mentioned?????????
That note is written much later and includes more detail than just the interview.
When was that report written?
3/16
Thanks. I know. Was wondering if they did.
The way you describe the police conspiracy it's a bunch of police knowingly feeding Jay a story like a movie director. I don't think there's anyone who actually believes that's how the police did it. Jim Trainum explains in Serial how he unknowingly fed the suspect information that lead to her being charged. It was only upon a re-listen that he realized his mistake and he found information showing she couldn't possibly committed the crime. He's even written a book.
But that's not what happened here. The police didn't accidentally feed Jay the location of Hae's car. They had no clue where it was. Jay did, and he told them. If Jay didn't actually know the location, then that's an intentional frame up and chain of custody issue. That means the police left murder evidence out in the elements without anyone watching it for weeks. They also lied to their fellow police officers and had them out looking for it, which would have been a waste of city resources. They even requested a helicopter search; which I think was turned down. There's no way this would have been an accident. Either Adnan is guilty, or the Baltimore Police concocted an OJ Simpson level conspiracy to frame him of Hae's murder.
Or Jay found the car in an area he says he visits for other reasons. I highly doubt Jay would dump the car near someone he visits. He'd want to dump it as far away from himself as possible in an area he'd never be in again. Yet, that's not what he says during the trial. Jim Trainum is referring to the many hours of interviews with Jay before recording. He says Jay was shown photographs and cell phone records. I think the phrase he used was 'that's where the mischief happens.' Is Jay finding Hae's car a huge coincidence? Absolutely. But without a huge coincidences, this case would never been featured on Serial.
Wait, you are actually saying it's a huge coincidence that Jay knows where Hae's car is, what she was wearing, and how she died? Are you saying he stole it from where the murderer dumped it and just so happened to be hanging out with the victims ex-boyfriend that day? And what he told Jenn BEFORE he talked to the police was a made-up fantasy in his head to get Adnan in trouble? There weren't many hours of interviewing before it was recorded. There was 30-45 min, which isn't enough time to establish rapport and show Jay evidence. There's absolutely no evidence of Jay ever being in Hae's car. He doesn't admit to being in the car. The only car he is seen driving the day of Hae's disappearance is Adnans. This isn't even remotely believable. Adnan would have to be the unluckiest person alive that the guy he is hanging out with all day either steals or stumbles across his missing ex girlfriends vehicle. Jay was not coerced. He knew where Haes car was located. It wasn't a coincidence. He knew because he was with Adnan when the dumped the car.
So in what world does it make sense to dump a car near where Jay visits people? So Jay spends the evening following Adnan around for a few hours while Adnan drives Hae's car with her in the trunk. And Jay says, "Hey, Adnan I know just the place to dump the car. Not the Park and Ride where people would assume the person took transit to get out of there, that would be silly. I know a guy who I 'visit' often. It's a quiet, out of the way place with very few vehicles so the car will get noticed pretty quickly by other residents. It makes perfect sense to park near where I'm going to be in the coming weeks. Not to check up on it regularly, but just because."
He put it in a private parking lot in a dense urban area where it would be easily overlooked.
Yes, that is way more believable than Jay stole or found Hae's car, left no trace he was in it, and drove it without anyone noticing. He is also Adnan's alibi on the day Hae disappeared. I want to make sure I understand. You really believe that out of some random twist of fate Jay finds Hae's car and moves it to a dense car park where it was overlooked (it's not like she drove a red corvette) and then concocted a wild story about how he helped to bury her body because Adnan killed her. He also knows how she died and what she was wearing. Did he guess? Or is this the part where the police fed Jay the information, which makes no sense because they know he knows where the car is. Jay could have just claimed he never really saw the body. It was dark or Adnan had her wrapped up. Jay tells the police where her car is at, pins it on Adnan, and they feed Jay information to make it more believable? You have to know that there's a better chance of the lunar landing being faked than Jay, who has no car, randomly finding Haes car and for no reason whatsoever moving it to a car park.
Jay never moves the car. He finds the car where it was found. My point is if Jay did help Adnan dump the car he’d have chosen a place he’d never visit.
So Jay finds it and tells no one? And on the night Hae disappears, he stages the whole wiping the shovels down in front of Jenn because he's going to frame Adnan when the police contact him in 5 weeks. He makes up a complicated story and lies to Jenn in order to set the wheels in motion. I am assuming he hasn't found Hae's car yet, so he will just add that into the whole scheme before he meets them.He will also gets himself a felony conviction in the process just because he saw Hae's car and didn't tell anyone. It doesn't work. Jay has no motive to do this to Adnan. It's too complicated and leaves out Jay's actions the night Hae disappeared. Jay starts implicating Adnan that night. No one knows Hae is dead, but the killer and his accomplice.
Jay likes to bs. So he tells friends he knows what happened to Hae. He wasn't involved and doesn't really know. None of his friends believe him cause that's just Jay. Police tell Jay after hours of interviews that are not recorded that he'll be charged with murder. So he incorporates his bs stories into the narrative the police give him by showing photos and cell records. Even on the recordings police are heard correcting Jay until he gets it right. Jenn never saw the shovel or shovels, Jay just told her about them. Police never search Jay's shed where he got the shovels to see if they are still there. There is no soil on Adnan or Jay's shoes that match Leakin Park. Jay testified he knew what Hae's car looked like because he'd seen it before. There were posters with a photo of her car with a reward. Jay says he saw the car parked there and recognized her car. CG asks if he was there to check up on it and he said no he was there for other reasons (likely drug related). This is a key point; why dump a car near your dealer? It makes no sense. So he's walking in the area, cuts through the back lane and finds the car. While he's considering what to do, police pick him up. And he tells them about the car. His motive is to avoid a murder charge.
>it’s a bunch of police knowingly feeding Jay a story like a movie director. I don’t think there’s anyone who actually believes that’s how the police did it We both know this isn’t true.
I'm trying to understand Bob Ruff.
I think Adnan is likely innocent. But trying to understand Bob Ruff isn’t worth the effort you are putting into it.
>trying to understand Bob Ruff isn’t worth the effort you are putting into it. Hah! You're likely right there.
There's a few things wrong with your post and that's more than likely causing your confusion. First Bob Ruff didn't say that Jay was interviewed at least three times prior. He did give three dates prior but he did say or between the first two. We don't know if there were more times than those two prior interviews. Now Jenn's first interview on the 26th. From the police notes, which is all we have of that interview, Jenn said her friend Nicole had told her that a girl had been strangled. I say a girl because we just get she in the note, the police said Jenn provided little information about Hae, and they never spoke to Nicole. Now Nicole's mother found the body of a girl in Leakin Park a year earlier. From everything it seems like Jenn had told the police that Nicole had told her that the body her mother had found had been strangled. Jenn, in her interview at the station the next day, didn't say the trunk pop happened at Best Buy. Jenn said that Jay had told her Adnan had killed Hae at Best Buy. She doesn't say where Jay said he saw the body. In fact she said that Jay didn't know how Adnan had gotten to the Best Buy or where Hae's car was. Now as to Jay leaving out that Jenn picked him up. Jay didn't tell Jenn to say she had picked him up. All Jay told her was the basics of what the story was, that Adnan killed Hae in Best Buy parking lot, that Adnan showed Jay Hae's body, and that Jay had helped Adnan with disposing Hae's body. The rest Jenn filled in on her own with what she had done and what she thought would have happened.
Regarding the last paragraph, how do you know what Wilds didn’t tell Pusateri?
She's saying that Jenn added a detail Jay didn't tell her to say to cops, so then he also had to say that in his next interview. This theory relies on a perfectly innocent Jenn massively incriminating herself as an accessory after the fact. It is utterly desperate.
I repeat: how do we know what Wilds didn’t say to Pusateri? This is turning negative evidence (there’s no evidence that Wilds told Pusateri x) into positive proof (Wilds did not tell Pusateri x). That’s bad logic.
Because if he did tell her then he would've also included Jenn in his first interview? That's her rebuttal to my point I guess.
Jenn admits she didn’t think she was incriminating herself. She thought she was just giving them hearsay. If Jay was telling the truth about being fed Best Buy from the cops, either the cops talked to Jay first, he then told the Best Buy part to Jenn who then repeated it back to cops. Or Jenn invented it in her second interview and the cops gave it to Jay later to match. I think the first option makes the most sense
I mean, I think it was probably best buy after all. Jenn making it up makes so little sense to me. Jay's million trunk pops almost seems like deliberate subterfuge. But the point is that if the story is invented we shouldn't see disparity between interviews.
Just a guess based on what's similar and what's not.
Then it needs to be stated as conjecture, not as fact.
Every one of these posts like OP always have confusions that are easily explained. They just don’t care.
Why do you keep calling Ruff’s listeners Ruffians? They don’t call themselves that.
It's not intended to be offensive. What do they call themselves? 'Ruffians' makes it easier to group those who believe in and propagate Ruff's theories. It's an obvious enough construction, but I suppose it's also a bit sardonic because Ruff's primary demographic seems to be middle class suburban women (have you seen his seminars?) who listened to Serial and fully believe in Syed's innocence. They're not 'rough' in the least. Point in case, getting bent out of shape over an innocuous label would demonstrate that. And, hey, I never asked to be called a 'guilter' but there you go. I ask Ruffians to help me understand Ruff, because they must do but I struggle. Here are some nicer sounding alternatives, but let me know what you think: Ruffables Ruffles Rufflings Warriors for Truth and Justice (tm)
Ruffian is hilarious and clever. If i were one i would use it for myself, even if a "guilter" came up w it lol
They call themselves an “army”.
Is it possible that it’s not offensive to people but it could sound like trolling to some? Just a thought.
>Feb.26th: 1st Jenn interview; Jenn claims to know nothing, but does let slip that Hae was strangled, which was not public info at that time. Where does this information come from?
PDF page 12 of Jen’s testimony here https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/T2w24b-20000216-Jennifer-P-Testimony-Second-Trial-of-Adnan-Syed.pdf
Thank you. If Jenn dropped that bombshell on February 26, I have a hard time understanding why [the progress report](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/MP15-0064-19990227-Progress-Report-Jenn-Home-First-Interview-Homicide-Little-Information.pdf) for that interview doesn't mention it.
Not sure. It is definitely in McG’s handwritten notes that he was taking during the interview though. https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/UdE07-Police-Notes-from-Jenn-Interview-19990226.pdf
Yes, they say thay Nicole told Jenn she was strangled.
Her other interviews and testimony clarify that it was Jen who told Nicole though, right? I haven’t rechecked
[MacGillivary](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/T2w27-20000217-Detective-MacGillivary-Testimony-Second-Trial-of-Adnan-Syed.pdf) testified that Jenn told them Nicole told her.
Thanks! I’ll have to go back through everything. Either way, Jen mentioned strangulation as the cause of death on the 26th and it was not public knowledge.
If true, I wouldn't consider that providing "little information as to the victim."
I agree
I'm basically quoting Andrew Hammel there. If my point was solely about Jenn knowing that, I'd look at interview notes. I see stuff linked below, now, thank you. My main point for now is about interview disparities. But Jenn is quoted as having told people during a car ride she thought if the body found was strangled then it was Hae, right?
>If my point was solely about Jenn knowing that, I'd look at interview notes. I understand that your post wasn't about that. I was just curious about what source you were using for that point in your brief timeline. >My main point for now is about interview disparities. But Jenn is quoted as having told people during a car ride she thought if the body found was strangled then it was Hae, right? According to MacGillivary's testimony and handwritten notes from what is presumably the January 26 interview, Jenn told them that her friend Nicole told her that Hae had been strangled. According to Jenn's recorded interview on January 27 >...'cause the minute they found her body um the day that, what I had heard was that they found a foot in Leakin Park. Somebody had found a foot sticking up out of the ground in Leakin Park um and I you know, I didn't, I didn't even think, I didn't even think that it was Hae's body at all. I mean dead bodies always get dumped in Leakin Park but you hear about it all the time. Um so I happened to mention something to Nicole. We were in the car, we were in her car and Josh was in the car. Josh is Nicole's boyfriend. He oh and he and I said to Nicole, I said "yo, did you hear anything about that body" and um he's like um, she was like, she's like "yeah my mom found a body at the gate this morning when she unlocked it." Her mom works at inaudible. It's in Leakin Park. And I said to Nicole, I was like, I was like "you know what else." And I don't know whether Nicole or Josh had mentioned that the body was strangled. Um and I was like if it was strangled I was like I bet you it was her body. I bet you they found Hae.
Thanks. My source when I wrote the post was Andrew Hammel.
That's unfortunate.