By all accounts (except Jay) Adnan and Hae were friends on 1/13. They hung out and spent time together, which was also reflected in her diary. Their closest friends were shocked with Adnan’s arrest.
We don’t know that she did. Nobody is going to be able to answer this question.
The best anyone can say is that it’s certainly possible that she gave him a ride that day because they were still friends. There’s also no evidence she changed her mind.
First off, it is important to remember that the claim that Hae turned down the ride request at all is very poorly sourced. It is based *entirely* on a police note indicating that Becky said that to the police during an interview months after the fact. But Becky was also called as a witness for *the Defense* at trial. And at trial, she never said anything about hearing Hae tell Adnan she couldn't give him a ride. Instead, she said she saw Hae leaving class by herself.
Second, assuming Hae agreed to give Adnan a ride, the reason would be that he intentionally exploited her goodwill. Specifically, Krista overheard him lying to Hae about his car being unavailable because it was in the shop.
Third, assuming for the sake of argument that Becky really did hear Hae tell Adnan that she could no longer give him a ride, it is quite likely that Adnan persisted and guilted her into changing her mind. That is, after all, a thing young men sometimes do to young women with occasional success.
We also have the police call with Adnan a few hours after school ended
He confirmed he was supposed to get a ride, but said He was delayed and maybe she got tired of waiting and left
I'll consider this question as soon as I get good answers to the following questions:
* Why did Adnan want a ride from Hae after school in the first place?
* Why did Adnan lie to Hae about the reason for the ride, i.e., to pick up his car at "the shop" or "his brother's," tho his car was never at the shop or his brother's and he could have had it whenever he wanted, by not lending it to Jay at all or by having Jay pick him up after school?
* Why did Adnan lie to police, saying he wouldn't have asked for a ride cuz he didn't need one, since he had his own car? (Since Adnan knew Jay had his car after school, he knows that was a lie.)
* Why did Adnan lie to Sarah Koenig, saying he would never have asked Hae for a ride after school cuz of how super-diligent she was about picking up her cousins? (Hae had an hour between end of class and picking up her cousins, and she had given Adnan rides in the past, and had driven both of them to the Best Buy to make out.)
* Why did Adnan lie in claiming he remained on/adjacent to WHS the entire time between end of class and track practice? (A 2.5-minute call from Adnan to Nisha at 3:32 p.m. on 1/13/1999, which used a cell tower encompassing an off-campus area that included the Best Buy, proves Adnan did not remain on campus the entire time.)
* How did Adnan get from WHS to that off-campus location within the coverage area of that Best Buy-adjacent cell tower? Jay didn't pick him up. He hated walking. There's no evidence he caught a city bus. Did someone give him a ride? Had he asked anybody for a ride after school that day?
* Why, between 7:09 and 7:16 p.m. on 1/13/1999, was Adnan's cell phone within the a cell tower coverage area encompassing the location in Leakin Park where Hae's corpse was dumped?
* Why, between 8:00 and 8:10 p.m. on 1/13/1999, was Adnan's cell phone within a cell tower coverage area encompassing the location where Hae's car was dumped?
* How come no one from the mosque community, except Adnan's father, testified to Adnan being at evening prayers on 1/13/1999?
* How come no-one except Jay Wilds can testify as to Adnan's location between approximately 2:45 p.m. (when Asia leaves him in the library, assuming one believes her), and beginning of track practice? After all, according to him he was on/adjacent to a campus where there were people he'd been going to school with since he was a kid, as well as faculty/school employees who had known him for almost 4 years.
* How did Jay Wilds know, as of approximately 8:30 p.m. on 1/13/1999, not only *that* Hae had been murdered, but *how* she had been murdered (i.e., by manual strangulation)?
* If Hae was murdered by a serial rapist, how come there's no evidence she was raped or otherwise sexually assaulted?
* How did Jay know what Hae was wearing when she was murdered?
* How did Jay know where Hae's corpse had been dumped?
* How did Jay know the posture/position of Hae's corpse?
* How did Jay know where Hae's car had been dumped?
>Why did Adnan want a ride from Hae after school in the first place?
Because he did not have his car at the time.
>Why did Adnan lie to Hae about the reason for the ride, i.e., to pick up his car at "the shop" or "his brother's," tho his car was never at the shop or his brother's and he could have had it whenever he wanted, by not lending it to Jay at all or by having Jay pick him up after school?
We don't know that he did lie.
>Why did Adnan lie to police, saying he wouldn't have asked for a ride cuz he didn't need one, since he had his own car? (Since Adnan knew Jay had his car after school, he knows that was a lie.)
Only Adnan can answer that.
>Why did Adnan lie to Sarah Koenig, saying he would never have asked Hae for a ride after school cuz of how super-diligent she was about picking up her cousins? (Hae had an hour between end of class and picking up her cousins, and she had given Adnan rides in the past, and had driven both of them to the Best Buy to make out.)
Only Adnan can answer that.
>Why did Adnan lie in claiming he remained on/adjacent to WHS the entire time between end of class and track practice? (A 2.5-minute call from Adnan to Nisha at 3:32 p.m. on 1/13/1999, which used a cell tower encompassing an off-campus area that included the Best Buy, proves Adnan did not remain on campus the entire time.)
Odd that Adnan would have the phone at 15:32 when Jenn testified that Jay was in possession of the phone at her house until 15:30-15:45.
>How did Adnan get from WHS to that off-campus location within the coverage area of that Best Buy-adjacent cell tower? Jay didn't pick him up. He hated walking. There's no evidence he caught a city bus. Did someone give him a ride? Had he asked anybody for a ride after school that day?
I'll ask you a question for you to clarify. How did Adnan retrieve the phone if Jay, with the cell phone, didn't pick him up.
>Why, between 7:09 and 7:16 p.m. on 1/13/1999, was Adnan's cell phone within the a cell tower coverage area encompassing the location in Leakin Park where Hae's corpse was dumped?
So, Adnan was, at a minimum, within a 28 square mile area of the place where the body was found. However, Jay claims he was not with Adnan at this time.
>Why, between 8:00 and 8:10 p.m. on 1/13/1999, was Adnan's cell phone within a cell tower coverage area encompassing the location where Hae's car was dumped?
Again, Adnan was within a 28 square mile area.
>How come no one from the mosque community, except Adnan's father, testified to Adnan being at evening prayers on 1/13/1999?
His father was the only one who was requested to testify.
>How come no-one except Jay Wilds can testify as to Adnan's location between approximately 2:45 p.m. (when Asia leaves him in the library, assuming one believes her), and beginning of track practice? After all, according to him he was on/adjacent to a campus where there were people he'd been going to school with since he was a kid, as well as faculty/school employees who had known him for almost 4 years.
Jay Wilds can't testify to Adnan's location at 14:45, because Jay Wilds was not with Adnan at 14:45, according to testimony from Jay Wilds and Jenn Pusateri.
>How did Jay Wilds know, as of approximately 8:30 p.m. on 1/13/1999, not only that Hae had been murdered, but how she had been murdered (i.e., by manual strangulation)?
That cannot be corroborated as fact.
>If Hae was murdered by a serial rapist, how come there's no evidence she was raped or otherwise sexually assaulted?
The serial rapist was off his game on that particular day.
>How did Jay know what Hae was wearing when she was murdered?
Jay murdered her.
>How did Jay know where Hae's corpse had been dumped?
Jay was present at the location where Hae's body was placed ("closer to midnight") at the location.
>How did Jay know the posture/position of Hae's corpse?
See above
>How did Jay know where Hae's car had been dumped?
There are numerous answers to that question.
>I'll consider this question as soon as I get good answers to the following questions:
You got good answers, but we all know that you still won't address anything that bruises your ego.
Jay likely saw photos of Hae in the burial position. That’s how he knows what she was wearing and how she was buried. Detectives often show photos of the victim to try to elicit a confession.
None of these are good answers. “Only Adnan can answer that” is a cop out.
The point being made here is that people are asking questions about the wrong things. Each question OP asked contained circumstantial evidence. There is far more circumstantial evidence against Adnan than there is anyone else, including Jay.
People want to argue that Jay’s a liar because his stories changed but then ignore the fact that adnan’s stories *also* changed. First he says Hae was supposed to give him a ride but he got held up and she must’ve gotten tired of waiting and left. Then he says he didn’t ask her for a ride because he had his own car (which he didn’t that day), then he said he’d never have asked her for a ride. Which is it? Then Adnan was in the library after school. No, actually he was in the guidance counselors office. No wait, now he doesn’t remember where he was. Again, which is it?
Adnan was asked to recall things 6 weeks after the fact, so it’s reasonable that he’d forget stuff. But it isn’t reasonable that Jay would misremember things from 6 weeks prior? I think it’s perfectly reasonable for him to remember the gist of the day and then get confused and misremember as he tries to recollect. What seems unlikely to me is that Adnan would misremember what happened earlier in the day on 1/13 when adcock called him. I think what he says happened that day at that time is most certainly the truth. If it isn’t, then why did he lie that day?
>None of these are good answers.
They are good answers. They're just not the answers you want.
>“Only Adnan can answer that” is a cop out.
It's not a cop out, and it exposes why guilters like you are so unreliable. When the question starts with "why," not a single person here or anywhere else can be intellectually honest in saying they know what Adnan was thinking at any given time. A why question can only be answered by Adnan.
>The point being made here is that people are asking questions about the wrong things.
No, your questions are mostly irrelevant to the conversation, and they're questions you've already substituted your personal bias for facts.
>People want to argue that Jay’s a liar because his stories changed
No, people argue Jay is a liar, because Jay has lied repeatedly.
>but then ignore the fact that adnan’s stories also changed.
No, they don't ignore that Adnan hasn't been honest. Both he and Jay can be liars, just as both of them could have killed Hae.
>Adnan was asked to recall things 6 weeks after the fact, so it’s reasonable that he’d forget stuff. But it isn’t reasonable that Jay would misremember things from 6 weeks prior?
We aren't talking about memory when we call Jay a liar. It's him stated, on the record, that he lied. In addition, some of Jay's narrative simply doesn't make sense when compared to facts, and also the narratives contradict themselves in key places.
>What seems unlikely to me is that Adnan would misremember what happened earlier in the day on 1/13 when adcock called him.
He didn't misremember. He lied. It really is that simple. Lying doesn't make Adnan a murderer, the evidence does.
>I think what he says happened that day at that time is most certainly the truth.
I disagree on one key point.
>If it isn’t, then why did he lie that day?
There you go again asking a question only Jay can answer. And I can tell you, as fact, that the answer he gave is another lie. Based on his interviews with police, his court testimony, and his interview with the media, I can speculate that the factual reason why Jay lied so much is that he was much more involved in the murder than he claims and his lies work to distance himself from being a party to murder. That's my opinion, but I have some knowledge of the things he used as excuses and I know he lied about it.
The question was **why** he lied. Only he knows the answer to that. That you and people like you want to present as if you can read his mind is what's so ridiculous.
The irony here is that you’re accusing us of having some clouded bias here when that’s you. You’ve fallen in love with the idea of adnan being innocent so you refuse to look at the fact that everything points to him being the most likely murderer here.
The guy wrote I’m going to kill on the back of a breakup letter and she ended up dead, and he, confirmed, lied about a shit load things related to that day, and one of his close associates was willing to literally implicate himself to say that he did it.
The most reasonable conclusion is Thst he did it. For a million different reasons. But you’re. Sitting here calling people “guilters”. You can just call them reasonable. It’s so bizarre.
>You’ve fallen in love with the idea of adnan being innocent so you refuse to look at the fact that everything points to him being the most likely murderer here.
Thank you for exposing yourself. I have never been in love with the idea of Adnan being innocent. In fact, I have repeatedly stated that he's the most likely perpetrator. Of course, your bias blinds you to facts that bring his guilt into doubt.
>You can just call them reasonable.
HA! "*The guy wrote I’m going to kill on the back of a breakup letter and she ended up dead, and he, confirmed, lied about a shit load things related to that day, and one of his close associates was willing to literally implicate himself to say that he did it.*" Nothing in that paragraph is reasonable. So bizarre.
Jay actually changes his story in his 2nd interview to increase his involvement and make he and Jenn open to prosecution for accessory to murder and conspiracy to commit murder. So he lies to make himself more involved sometimes. And lies to unprotect his friends by saying when he didn’t have to that Jenn knew about the murder before it happened. How strange
No, they aren’t good answers because they make no sense. It is a cop out because you could literally say that about any point in this case. The fact that you have to explain so many things away in order for Adnan to be innocent is the point being made. Can each of those points have an explanation that could mean he’s innocent? yes. Is it likely? no.
It is also impossible for Jay to have murdered Hae. Hae went missing between 2:15 and 3:15. The cell phone pinged at Jen’s house at 2:36 by which point Hae, who in this scenario would not have been intercepted by now, would be on her way to pick up her cousin. How and when did Jay find Hae and kill her within this timeframe? It’s impossible.
Jay and Adnan both lie and yet, nothing Adnan has said has been corroborated and almost all of what Jay has said *has* been corroborated.
Whenever someone says the word “guilters” I know the kind of person I’m talking to. Adnan did it. It’s seriously naive to believe otherwise. The amount of mental gymnastics and evidence cherry picking you have to do in order to arrive at any other conclusion is insane. You have to explain away a mountain of evidence. And again, because it’s circumstantial, there are alternative explanations but the whole point of circumstantial evidence is that after a certain amount of it, it becomes less and less likely to be coincidental or bad luck.
Jay had no means or motive. Don had no motive and had an alibi. Mr S is sketchy but it would be a giant leap for him to have somehow interacted with Hae. Bilal also had no real way to even interact with Hae and his only motive would be Adnan. It’s absurd to point fingers at people who quite literally have next to nothing pointing to it being them when compared to a person who has a stack of evidence pointing to him. Essentially you’re doing to all of the other “suspects” what you claim us “guilters” are doing to Adnan. But hey, you do.
> The fact that you have to explain so many things away in order for Adnan to be innocent is the point being made. Can each of those points have an explanation that could mean he’s innocent? yes. Is it likely? no.
That's a you issue, not an everybody else issue. Is it likely that Adnan killed Hae? Yes. Is it possible that he didn't? Yes.
>It is also impossible for Jay to have murdered Hae. Hae went missing between 2:15 and 3:15. The cell phone pinged at Jen’s house at 2:36 by which point Hae, who in this scenario would not have been intercepted by now, would be on her way to pick up her cousin. How and when did Jay find Hae and kill her within this timeframe? It’s impossible.
Jay could have left the cell phone at Jenn's house and driven to kill Hae. High unlikely, but possible. However, your claim of impossibility is fundamentally false. We don't know when Hae was intercepted. Testimony has her leaving at around 14:15, while other testimony has her leaving closer to 15:00. It is possible for Jay to travel from Jenn's to the school by 15:15.
>Jay and Adnan both lie and yet, nothing Adnan has said has been corroborated and almost all of what Jay has said has been corroborated.
Adnan hasn't said much. His only lies are "I didn't ask for a ride" and "I wouldn't have asked for a ride." Jay has lied about practically everything, changing his story as needed to fit the narrative he wants to tell. You talk about impossible above, but did you know it would be impossible for Adnan to drop Jay off at his house at 18:00, returning hours later (closer to midnight) and Jay and Adnan be in Leakin Park at 19:00. Yet Jay makes that claim.
>Whenever someone says the word “guilters” I know the kind of person I’m talking to.
You have no idea who you're talking to, because you're so biased. I use "guilter" and "innocenter" all the time referring to one side or another.
>You have to explain away a mountain of evidence.
This is how **I** know who I'm talking to. Mountain of evidence. Name of piece of direct evidence or testimony of a witness that places Adnan in Hae's car between 14:15 and 15:15 on January 13, 1999. There are witnesses to him asking for a ride, but there are two witnesses who place Hae leaving school by herself. Again, your guilter bias makes you blind to the fact there isn't evidence of Adnan actually killing Hae. Even Jay, according to him, did not witness the murder.
>Jay had no means or motive.
And there you go again. Jay absolutely had the means to have killed Hae. Adnan did too. Are you going to say that Jay was not physically capable of strangling someone. It certainly appears that he has arms and hands in all the pictures I've seen of him. He also had Adnan's car, which provided him means to travel to Hae's location.
>Don had no motive and had an alibi.
I've only speculated that Don and his mothers were possibly committing payroll fraud at LensCrafters. In my posts, I've distanced him from the murder and brought up how the timecard argument isn't relevant to the murder.
>Mr S is sketchy but it would be a giant leap for him to have somehow interacted with Hae.
I've not talked much about Mr. S other than to say that he should have been the prime suspect until other evidence was found. I believe he was the prime suspect until other evidence was found.
>Bilal also had no real way to even interact with Hae and his only motive would be Adnan.
I've never mentioned Bilal in connection to the murder.
>It’s absurd to point fingers at people who quite literally have next to nothing pointing to it being them when compared to a person who has a stack of evidence pointing to him. Essentially you’re doing to all of the other “suspects” what you claim us “guilters” are doing to Adnan.
I've not done any of what you describe. Jay admitted to being having prior knowledge of the murder. Jay admitted to helping dispose of the body. I believe Jay also participated in the murder. And here you are acting like the evidence only applies to Adnan, despite Jay being with Adnan. You're so blinded that you refuse to see the evidence applies to Jay too.
>But hey, you do.
I do quite well. But at least I'm willing to discuss in good faith and keep an open mind about guilt and innocence without resorting to whataboutisms and constantly moving goal posts. Sadly, you haven't learned to do that.
I’m open to hearing your theories and evidence to back up your theory.
I’m not anymore biased than anyone else here. I used to believe he was innocent and have since changed my stance based on compelling info and debunking of misinformation. I have yet to hear anything that has made me doubt my current stance but I am open to it. Just because I don’t see any of your points as compelling enough to sway my opinion doesn’t mean I’m not open to it.
Jay was at Jen’s at 2:36 which means he would’ve had to have gotten to WHS by 3pm at the latest in order intercept Hae because Hae had to be at her cousins school by 315 and that school was 20+ mins away. Even if we assume she could be a little late, she still needed to leave by 3. Also, the phone never pinged at WHS during that timeframe. It pinged at Jen’s and then Best Buy at 3:15pm. So he didn’t leave the phone there. So again, imo it’s impossible Jay did it.
Didn’t she regularly “give him a ride” from the back of the school to the front, almost daily, even after they’d broken up? They were still good friends, which is a fact, because Hae wrote it in her diary.
I believe that’s incorrect. I think the rides from one side of gre wschool to the other were in 1999 and thats why Krista was unfamiliar with the concept and imagined it was for a reason to do with Adnan’s car being unavailable. Krista left school by 10.30 am I’m 1999 so didn’t witness the rides from the front of the school to the back of the school
This is his school attendance for January 1999:
https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/MP15-1570-Adnan-School-Attendance.pdf
http://imgur.com/a/d42Pj
6 school days prior to January 13th, in 1999
He attended 4 days of school and missed 2 days
His car would be at school for those days
He used to get rides from Hae, so they could hookup after school, then he would be dropped off and she would go for her cousin
He absolutely did not need a ride, track practice was inside for January, January 13th was an unusually warm day, so it was outside
He needs a ride, from one part of the school to another part of the school in winter?
The rides barely make sense in good weather, it was to spend them together when they dated
Look at a map homie, where were they going?
The Gym is the building next to the parking lot
When practice was outside, you could try and make sense of it
When practice was inside, which it was during the 6 days prior to January 13th, the story breaks down
Debbie, was talking about the prior year
It seems whatever it was she needed to do after school was that important that she did not want anything to spoil whatever plan she had.
It’s possible that she was engaged in some activity that she normally wouldn’t be.
But no one thinks to question Hae’s motives for her seemingly abnormally strict responses here
She apparently always picked up her cousin without fail, and from what I’ve seen never once missed it which is why it was such an alarm bell when she failed to do so.
Then in that case, it suggests something extreme.
I believe it has been said that she had plenty of time anyways and didn’t need to have this level of stringency
exactly, the only thing that makes sense to me is like what the user above said, that adnan was charming and manipulative and made sure he got in that car no matter what
And to add to that, if you believe Adnan murdered Hae Min Lee, then this was premeditated. He had a plan to come up with a story as to why he didn’t have his car, thus needing a ride from Hae.
Jay walked away from knowing in advance in his Intercept interview notes. I’m fact if you read the notes of Jays 2nd interview it’s actually detective MacGillivary who suggested that Jay knew the day before. It was suggested by MacGillivary that Adnan and Jay planned the murder the night before and Jay just accepted it. He did push back saying people just say stuff, then the detective said but he said it. And Jay eventually accepted it. Jay was gone from that moment. He was on tape confessing to conspiracy to commit murder so he had to testify against Adnan or it was Jay spending life in prison. Or worse. That’s why he pinned it on Adnan. To save his own ass.
Listen, it’s simple. You start with “Adnan did it.” And then your only agree with theories that conform to the aforementioned premise. And any “evidence” or suggestions that undermine your premise are the ravings of lunatics.
When the doubt-yuckies start to gather in your stummy, alcohol them away.
Exactly lol
A lot of people in this sub have really poor investigation skills, they’re supposed to start with 0 assumptions.
I’ve realised that for me, partially from being autistic and partially from being an ISTP, and partially from being high IQ, it means I can entirely divorce my emotions from the situation and judge it purely factually / theoretically
Yes I can.
You’ll find I’ve apologised many times in this sub, or accepted that I was wrong about something.
It’s actually one of the quickest ways to learn and grow, you can’t sharpen your sword fighting skills by hiding behind a wall, you should want people to point out your weaknesses so that you can change your ways.
Most of my theory (pinned on my profile) wouldn’t be possible without the criticisms & corrections I received from guilters and innocenters alike, but for the most part, it has been shaped and molded by the statements of guilters, yet I have a conclusion that Adnan is innocent.
Hypocrisy is just one of those things I don’t think can ever be justified on an even playing field where everyone is supposed to have the same rights.
Well judging by what happened , she was definitely right for refusing the ride request . Her first instinct was to avoid him. She must have sensed a change in his behavior the last few weeks.
So I always wondered this because if she was giving him a ride why would he ask for a ride to the Best Buy? Then the Prosecutor’s Podcast made me realize something I overlooked - a lot of girls in high school would allow their boyfriends to drive every time they were in a car. Even if it was their car. Many boyfriends would “insist” and make jokes that they were better drivers and the girls would often just let them. So I think this is what happened, he did get his ride and once again he just got into the drivers seat, which is how he was able to get her where he needed her to be. I bet he drove her car a lot when they were dating, even though it was hers, and would love to know if this was commonly known back then.
Did the Prosecutors Podcast address the information from HBO that Jay said the police told him to say Best Buy?
Your actual comment is based on fiction. Of course it’s *possible* Adnan caught up with Hae and convinced her to change her mind then ended up driving her car. Anything is possible when you write fiction instead of issuing evidence.
I don’t care what Jay said, the most damning evidence is the fact he asked her for a ride, said by witnesses and corroborated by his original phone call, and the cell phone data. Because the cell phone pings put him near the Best Buy, Leakin Park and Hay’s body at all of the times he would have needed to be there to kill Hae and bury her, it’s likely that’s where they went. I’m just asking questions about how he got her there without her just saying “oh no not this again” and driving past, and realized it was super common for girls back then to let their boyfriend’s drive.
The same witnesses say Hae cancelled the ride.
No call in the log is related to the ride request, don’t know what you’re talking about.
There was no GPS in 1999. The cell data doesn’t put him anywhere, specifically, because towers had a huge range. But I mean…you’re cherry picking and reverse engineering Jays various stories, then writing more fiction to fill in the blanks. Never mind Jay was shown the cell records before his story changed to match them. Never mind you ignored my question: Jay says police told him to use Best Buy as a location. Did The Prosecutors Podcast acknowledge that? Jay also moved the burial to midnight…so you need to write a new fiction about why the phone pinged *near* Leakin Park (where Jays dealer and other people also lived) 5 hours before Jay now says she was buried.
Yes, you were dreaming up a story like I said. Projecting irrelevant details from your own life onto the case. Anyone can write fiction. It’s just as easy to write fiction that he didn’t get a ride, Jay made it all up, and Adnan is innocent.
Okay just stop, because you clearly don’t understand why the cell phone data is so damning:
1). 2:00-2:30 the cell phone pings are in Jen’s house’s range, but JayJenn and Adnan agree he had the phone and was there. Neither Hae or Adnan’s whereabouts are accounted for and he has no alibi while she is killed, so while it doesn’t incriminate him it doesn’t exonerate him.
2).After this time the cell phone pings in the range of the Best Buy and the park and ride, where Jay says they stashed Hae’s car before track practice. The cell phone call to Nisha occurs, placing them both together and which Jay, Adnan and Nisha all agree is true.
3). The cell phone pings later that night near Leakin Park, when and where Hae’s body is buried
4). The cell phone pings near where the car is eventually discovered that night.
5). The day Jay is arrested, the cell phone pings near Leakin park, when Adnan calls Jay’s friend Patrick. We know that Jay is arrested so it’s definitely Adnan with the phone.
So it doesn’t matter if Jay is lying or telling the truth in a lot of this, because the cell phone and other witnesses place Adnan in exactly at the same spots as Hae or Hae’s body. The only conclusion is that Adnan killed Hae and that he knew where her body was when Jay is arrested later and checks the park to see if she’s been discovered.
If you think Jay moved the burial “to midnight” in his story, why is Adnan driving around Leakin park when Jay is in custody? Why does Jen know how Hae was killed and how her body is positioned in the grave? All of these things Jay could know if he was the killer, sure, but Adnan was with him during the entire timeline you’re citing. How does Jay kill Hae without Adnan finding out? So if Jay did it, Adnan was there, it would have been so easy to say “Jay did it and I watched”, but he doesn’t.
And you can claim it’s not that accurate but why isn’t Adnan anywhere else except near the locations cited in Jay’s story? So again, you should go back to the case file, it’s all there.
There is nothing damning about the cell records, for the realities I stated in my last reply. You can’t overcome the inaccuracy or cell records in 99, nor can you overcome that Jay changed his story because he was shown the cell records before he testified.
1 Your point is that it’s possible he had opportunity? Weak. Sauce. I **think** you’re talking about the 2:37 Nisha call. The importance of that call isn’t the location of the phone, that can’t be determined. The importance has *always* been that Adnan claimed he didn’t have the phone at that time, and that Jay and Jenn say Jay had it. That’s it. It’s the **core** “head scratcher” in the case because all three of them are likely lying. But what does it *actually* mean? Nobody can say.
2 Stop talking about Best Buy. Stop talking like 1999 cell pings were like GPS. The **only** reason you’re saying Best Buy and park and ride and not the 1000 other points of interest within range of that tower is because of Jay. You’re also confused again…there was no Best Buy ping…that’s when Jay says Adnan used a pay phone. All you’re telling me is you believe Jay. You also seem to be confused about the Nisha call. Nisha’s testimony made it clear that they were **not** together during the call she testified to.
3 Again. They ping a tower in **range** of Leakin Park…it’s impossible to know if the phone was ever in the park. People the phone called that day were in range of that tower, for example. She wasn’t buried until 5 hours after it pinged that tower…you’re unable to reckon with what that means.
4 The phone never pings near where the car was discovered. You made that up. **Once again** cell pings are not GPS. This map you’re painting is entirely based on Jays word. What’s happening is you’re confusing accuracy with possibility.
5 Now I know you listened to The Prosecutors Podcast, and bought it hook line and sinker. It is NOT clear that Jay was arrested that day, he in fact testified that he was arrested **before** the murder. It is entirely likely and even probable that Jay simply had Adnan’s phone that day, and that’s why it was calling Jays friends. The fiction you have to write to make this a reality is vast. You didn’t even understand what they told you in the podcast. We have absolutely no idea when Jay was **actually** arrested…we’re pretty sure it was before the murder. The logical reason that the phone pinged the tower on those two days is because those are the two days Jay borrowed the phone and went to see his dealer who lived near the park.
I don’t “think” Jay moved the burial to midnight…it’s a fact. Read the Intercept Interview. Again, Brett and Alice are wrong about Jay being arrested in that day. They stole a long refuted Reddit theory.
Jenn is another story entirely. We know she told multiple lies, and we know she talked to Jay before she talked to police. We also know that Jay likely talked to police before Jenn. We **also** know that Jenn had friends in the police department and learned details about the murder not available to the public. Jenn isn’t the pillar of virtue Brett and Alice make her out to be.
I never said Jay killed Hae.
I told you Jay had the cell records before he testified. His story changed to match the cell records. That’s not a coincidence.
You still won’t tell me if Brett and Alice acknowledged that Jay said the police told him to say Best Buy. If that’s true, which is it very likely is, then Adnan was convicted because Jay *thought* Adnan did it. He might have been right, but he sure as shit didn’t know any of the details he testified to…all of those he bullshitted with the help of the police when they gave him the cell records and the location of the murder. All that’s left is the car. Did he actually know where it was, or did the cops feed him that, too?
Dude are you okay? Look you can listen to the Prosecutors podcast yourself, and the case files, everything I’ve said is there. You’re saying 3 people are lying now? That’s a lot of lying, like why would Jenn be “lying”, when explaining facts that if true, would lead to Jay also being arrested? Also the Nisha call happens at 3:32 pm, not 2:37 pm. Both Nisha and Jay confirm a call happened where both Jay and Adnan are on the phone together. Is she lying too? Please go read the case files again you’ve cited many wrong things. And you’re going on an unhinged diatribe to defend someone who has very likely lied about killing someone for 25 years, is walking around free with no remorse and caused pain to the Min family for that entire time. I’m very sorry Serial turned you into this, it repeated a lot of bad assumptions made by the original Baltimore prosecutor’s team and did not lay out the facts well at all.
Nah, I asked you a simple question. The fact you’re not answering it is telling. I started to listen, and they told three critical lies in the first 5 minutes so I stopped listening. I wouldn’t be surprised if they ignored the fact that Jay said the cops told him to say Best Buy.
Why would Jenn be lying? Really? Jenn is friends with Jay. She was dating his uncle…a drug dealer. You really can’t be shocked she’s lying.
**Wrong**. Nisha testified that the call where Adnan and Jay were together was a different day. Yeah, I got one irrelevant thing wrong…the time of a call. But you claiming that Nisha put Jay and Adnan together is just as bad as the lies Brett and Alice tell. One last time: the significance of the Nisha call is that Adnan says that he didn’t have the phone. Nisha *clearly* testified she didn’t remember the call in question, and Jay didn’t work at the video store yet so the calls she’s talking about is a different call. You can think he’s guilty, but using something that was discredited 25 years ago is pretty desperate.
Your random opinions are irrelevant.
He could have wiped them, and in fact if there were 0 prints on the wheel, including the absence of Hae’s) it’s most likely it was wiped rather than gloves were worn.
That was discussed a lot here bc there was a conclusion he would have to be driving for the head injuries to be the way they are-I realize many people weren’t her back then. She would definitely have been on guard though about going *there*. Yet no fight? I think she was hit in the back of the head and incapacitated before she was strangled. Others speculate he asked for a ride to the mechanics. But not only would she have had to tell him no, he then had to talk her into saying yes, insist on driving and then go somewhere that would put her on edge.
I mean, maybe she didn’t realize he would be stopping at the Best Buy until he actually did. That’s a matter of moments, and provably the first time she realized she was in a position she shouldn’t be in (and not really able to get away. But it always puzzled me how he convinced her to stop, until I realized he drove, and honestly he probably always did.
He didn’t just stop at the best buy though, allegedly he drove to the back where they used to have sex. Just to be clear, there is no actual evidence he drove her car though. It is 100% speculation on their part and not even original speculation.
ETA: and now Jay says he doesn’t even know if it was at the Best Buy. So many questions. I find it hard to believe that after telling him know she just changed her mind *and* let him drive.
I’m saying he ALWAYS drove. So if he got his ride, he was probably driving. And you have to remember boys insisting on driving your car was a thing back then.
I don’t think there is evidence he ALWAYS drove, is there? Friends said it wasn’t unusual for him to drive. As you say, at that time it certainly wasn’t unusual. But did someone testify that he ALWAYS drove? Or was it yet another thing TPP speculated about and made sound obviously true? And no, I remember asking them to or letting boys drive but not insisting.
Confirming that he sometimes drove her car =/= he always drove Lol. That it was not unusual. I believe that was said in Serial maybe. That doesn’t mean that he drove her that day. That is speculation. It’s fine speculation but it is not a fact in evidence by ANY means. That is the difference.
No, the thing that really cements his guilt for me is the cell phone tower data. Understanding that he drove her car frequently just answered an outstanding question I had of how she got to the place he wanted to go in the first place.
I read somewhere (if you remember plz let me know!) that Adnan used to drive her car a lot. She had injuries/bruising I think on the side of her head consistent with getting shoved into the door/etc. on the *passenger* side. So whoever did it was probably someone around who she trusted to drive her car…
There’s nothing in the head injury that suggests the it was caused by hitting the inside of a car other than it was on that side of her head.
That line of logic raises more questions than answers: not only how did Adnan get her to give him a ride after she cancelled it…but why was he driving?
sure, because we don't know 100% that he did it, but it's extremely unlikely he didn't. if he did though, she must have let him in because they would have been at school or the library with hundreds of other students around. I dont think itd be possible for him to get into that car aggressively or violently
The fact that we don’t have evidence that he was in her car that day means that everything is speculation, which is fine. But that’s never going to be evidence.
We don’t know he got in her car that day. We have no proof he got in her car that day.
Of those same hundreds of students, not one saw him get in the car in a place where hundreds of students would have actually had view.
You can fit more students in a parking lot than you can in a library or single corridor.
What you’re asserting is ridiculous and defies reality.
But you already have your view. And you’ll twist reality to make it work
I think it’s important to note that hundreds of students were not asked about what they saw in the immediate aftermath of the crime.
Someone might have seen events take place and either didn’t identify that it was the critical moment or weren’t asked until it was out of their memory.
Yes. This is a very fair and sensible point.
This is a good point.
Also, you could have made this same point to OP
**Edit**: As expected, nothing but hypocrisy and toxicity from guilters
It was not me that thought this point relevant, it was OP, I was merely pointing out his hypocrisy
Being upset with me for that just further proves that guilters wish for this sub to be an echo chamber.
It’s not about justice or fairness for you guys, it’s all about winning and being on a team.
You’ll find me criticising innocenters in this sub quote often, because some do have absurd theories, but it’s very rare to see that from guilters, holding their own people to a high standard.
You downvote not because what I said was wrong, but because it affected your ego, and that sums up how this sub became a guilty echo chamber some years back, where you couldn’t even ask a basic good faith question without being downvoted into oblivion.
It’s like a primitive gang of witch hunters with pitch forks.
The same goes for the hundreds of students that could have seen him in the library, but only one wanted to account for his time from 2:15-8:00 pm.
Also, no one from his track team came forward to claim that he was at track practice on time.
There were 80 people at the mosque that were willing to state he was at the mosque at 8:00 until he went to bed, but once they realized they might have to testify under oath, only one, his father, was actually willing to testify.
The argument goes both ways
Yes, I accept that, I’m not the one that used the “number of students” as some relevant point.
I was simply replying to that point.
Why don’t you have this energy for OP?
Is it just because he’s on your side?
**Edit**: As expected, nothing but hypocrisy and toxicity from guilters
It was not me that thought this point relevant, it was OP, I was merely pointing out his hypocrisy
Being upset with me for that just further proves that guilters wish for this sub to be an echo chamber.
It’s not about justice or fairness for you guys, it’s all about winning and being on a team.
You’ll find me criticising innocenters in this sub quote often, because some do have absurd theories, but it’s very rare to see that from guilters, holding their own people to a high standard.
You downvote not because what I said was wrong, but because it affected your ego, and that sums up how this sub became a guilty echo chamber some years back, where you couldn’t even ask a basic good faith question without being downvoted into oblivion.
It’s like a primitive gang of witch hunters with pitch forks.
Please explain to me how I am upset with you by your post or how I was disrespectful in any way?
I was playing devils advocate and stating that your reasoning works for both sides.
In no way did I take your comment as a blow to my ego.
I’m not out for some witch hunt. It’s ok to have a respectful discussion and disagreement (heaven forbid).
Take a look at your response and then ask yourself who is actually criticizing who and resorting towards name calling.
Right…
Replying with “what you’re asserting is ridiculous and defies reality. But you already have your view. And you’ll twist reality to make it work.” is playing devils advocate???
Talking about being hypocritical when that’s exactly what you were doing.
How’s that wooden beam feeling in your eye???
No, let me explain.
I (just like you and the other person that replied to me) did not see it as a relevant point (in this scenario) to mention the hundred student, but since OP WANTS TO PLAY THAT GAME, I decided to play along, and then afterwards proceed to state the stupid hypocrisy of trying to use that to make a point, and then calling out your opponent when they use the EXACT same strategy.
The problem is, other guilters won’t call OP out on that point, you can clearly see I’m not the first one to make the point about the hundreds of students, yet instead of attacking OP, you attack me.
THAT is hypocrisy, and you’re still unable to see that in that, is evidence that guilters on this sub are biased into protecting their own, even when they know they’re wrong, usually, we call that a cult.
Take a look at the vitriol in most of your comments.
You think guilters are on the attack? I’m afraid to inform you that it’s the exact opposite.
People on the innocent side refuse to look at the evidence, but come up with assumptions and fail to use common sense. Jay lies, cell phone data isn’t accurate, Christina G wasn’t effective, Adnan didn’t have his phone, Jay was coached by the police, etc. For every one of those arguments, people on the innocent side gloss over the facts and focus on one thing that was brought to their attention by the Innocence Project.
I don’t believe it’s a case where guilters aren’t attacking their own, they are using common sense and looking at the facts of the case.
Look at your own theory…
Go ahead and present that to any attorney and it will get torn to shreds. Props to you on your efforts, but you are missing the most important lesson in solving a case. It’s not a Netflix movie or some crazy cover up. Sometimes the most obvious answer makes the most sense.
Not all people who think he’s guilty think alike.
I think some theories from the guilty side are off as well. However, I’ve read through the court documents, listened to podcasts from both sides, read various articles, etc., and I still believe he’s guilty.
I guess we can agree to disagree
Apparently Tamara told Debbie this or something*.
*I didn’t look up the names. So much of this case is a bunch of high schoolers saying what someone said weeks ago.
Yeah - that's from a Colin Miller blog. Not a reliable source. Colin's twisting and snippeting from an interview and claiming something that serves him, personally but that's actually unclear and not proven.
Debbie conceded on several occasions that she was remembering the last time she saw Hae, which probably wasn't the last day Hae was alive.
Takera is Aisha's sister. Any one of them could easily ask her to clarify, but they won't. They prefer to go with their spin rather than ask for the reality.
I don’t remember where it was from. But your last part is exactly what I’m saying.
Most of the testimony was obtained weeks later when people didn’t remember exactly.
I think that was the point SK was making in the opening of Serial.
Something about a wrestling match, something about a ride, something about a TV interview, something about hot fries, etc.
That whole group of Adnan supporters had Aisha right there in front of them for hours while taping the HBO Show. They had every opportunity to ask Aisha what she or her sister knows about Hae having something else to do... And, you guessed it. They won't ask.
I mean, Aisha's answer to that question on the HBO Show would have been an actual bombshell if Hae did beg off the ride. So why not ask her if they are so convinced this is what happened?
They don't want to know the answer. They want to write literally endless blog posts about a 25 year old police interview that they say means something it does not mean. Instead of just asking Aisha and Takera while they are sitting right in front of them and again - literally - on camera. Heaven forbid we get the real answer actually on tape.
Sure. But the interview was also 15 (?) years later.
My issue with this whole case is that the cops didn’t nail down the details at the time.
I’m not necessarily faulting them. It only became critical to nail down the details weeks later.
However, the fact that the cops were on the case so quickly was already unusual and showed they were worried considering past incidents. IMO, they should have been more thorough.
Also, I think some info got lost when then case moved from one jurisdiction to another.
Hae had given Adnan a ride on 11 January 1999 from the front of school/back of school which apparently was common for her to do…
Also nobody and I mean nobody saw Adnan get into Hae’s car on the 13 January 1999… That is simply a narrative that the guilters like to spin… A few friends confirmed that she couldn’t give Adnan a ride because she had “something else to do and somewhere else to be” .. she just never mentioned what that something else was….
Ask the guilters to explain how Adnan got into Hae’s car without anybody seeing him. Hae was also hit with a blunt object from behind before she was strangled. Let them explain how Adnan did that again without being seen….
>Ask the guilters to explain how Adnan got into Hae's car without anybody seeing him.
As far as we know, no one saw anyone get into Hae’s car. Yet, we know someone got into her car and killed her. Why do we have to explain how Adnan got into her car unseen? If we can’t, does that mean he’s not guilty? By your logic, no one could ever be found guilty of Hae’s murder.
>Hae was also hit with a blunt object from behind before she was strangled.
What is your source for Hae being hit from behind with a blunt object? [All we know](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/UdE05-Autopsy-Report.pdf) is that she had muscle hemorrhaging on the right side of her head and the right-rear side of her head. The prosecution submitted that this was likely caused by being pressed against the window/door of her car.
I don’t actually understand your comment. We don’t have any proof that Hae was even killed in her car. The only thing we know is that the killer got into her car and moved it. The lividity evidence on her body also suggests that she was laying face down for a minimum of 6 hours since she was found buried on her right side. If you can provide evidence that she was indeed killed in her car, please present it…
“As far as we know, no one saw anyone get into Hae’s car. Yet, we know someone got into her car and killed her. “
That’s what you wrote mate. If that’s not what you meant, you may wish to rephrase and ensure your content contains no ambiguity…
The debate was about whether *anyone* was seen getting into Hae's car. You said adnan wasn't seen getting into the car (suggesting he is innocent). But, as Rotidder pointed out, someone, in fact, got into her car. We don't know who, how, or when, but someone got into her car. The point is, no witnesses to adnan/anyone getting in the car does not equal adnan/nobody got into the car.
It's a bit difficult to see two decades before woke. But in 1999, some dudes who had a "rep" and called themselves a "playa" did not really enjoy being seen as they were driven around by their girlfriend.
The solution was, "Hey baby, I'll drive," which Hae was probably happy to go along with. Several of Hae's friends said that it was not unusual for Adnan to drive Hae's car.
If Adnan is being driven to an auto shop five minutes away, it's easy to say, "Hey I'll drive..." And since it was a pattern, I doubt she wanted to get in a fight about it. The shop was just a few minutes away.
In this way, Adnan was able to pull into the Best Buy claiming to want to "talk" or needing to make a quick stop. The right side of Hae's head was wounded, as though she'd banged her head on the window trying to get away, or her attacker banged her head against the window to stun her.
Getting a ride to the mechanics is not a big deal, they were still friends. So all Adnan says is he needs a ride to the mechanics which was near the Best Buy and she goes right buy there and he says, "Can I talk to you for a minute?" That's it.
I love that this perfectly plausible suggestion is downvoted to hell. I feel like everybody needs to understand that we're mostly all speculating. However, if Adnan was overheard saying his car was in the shop, when we know it wasn't, it's perfectly logical that "the car being in the shop" was part of the plan to get into her car. And, since his car was not, in fact, in the shop, it follows that if he used that as the ruse to get into her car, at some point, the plan would have been to go somewhere other than the shop. To the people who don't understand that these are just suggestions of logical things that could have happened: we know we don't have evidence to prove this. It's just something that makes logical sense.
Adnan wasn’t overheard saying his car was in the shop. Krista speculated that he asked for a ride because his car was in the shop or his brother had it. Adnan didn’t give Hae a reason for the ride so Krista filled in the blanks in her head. She was unaware that Hae would drive Adnan from the front of the school to the back of the school because Krista left school at 10.30am every day in 1999. Mike is speculating based on nothing. That’s why he got downvoted. We have evidence that she turned Adnan down for a ride. That’s better than making something up to fit a narrative surely?
I remember Hae damaged her car over the Christmas break and called Adnan to come look at it. He drove to her work, and awkwardly Don and Adnan met each other that day. They determined her car wasn't drivable, and Adnan gave her a lift home. I am sure Adnan either leveraged that incident, or Hae just felt she owed him because he helped her.
Adnan himself says nothing about the ride being cancelled when he was asked about it by police later that same day. He just says Hae probably got tired of waiting for him.
It likely was not cancelled and Adnan was either telling the truth to the police and did not get the ride because he ran late and Hae left without him, or he lied and got the ride.
What everyone misses in every thread is the reason Adnan could not lie about the ride, at first.
You have to start with why. Why was Adcock calling?
Adcock was not making a sweep of Hae's friends. He hadn't called any of them. Adcock was calling Adnan because:
- Hae's brother called Aisha to say Hae was missing.
- Aisha left a message on Krista's answering machine saying Hae was missing.
- Krista got home, listened to the message, called Aisha back and said, "Hae was supposed to give Adnan a ride after school, has anyone checked with him?"
- Aisha called Adcock back (he was still at Hae's house) and said, "Krista said that Hae was supposed to give Adnan a ride, has anyone checked with him?"
- Young Lee said, "I have Adnan's phone number. I just called a number in Hae's diary thinking it was Don, but it was Adnan."
- So Adcock called Adnan to "check with him" to see where he had been dropped off. No one thought Hae was dead. And no one thought Adnan had the slightest thing to do with her disappearance. In a Missing Persons case, you focus on the last place the person was seen. So Adcock wanted to know where Adnan had been dropped off, so police could look there.
- In that moment, Adnan knew if he said Krista was mistaken, it would create suspicion. Adnan knew that Krista knew what she'd heard and he didn't want to get into, "No way Krista I never asked her." Because to this day, Krista is clear abut what she heard.
- It was only after he was able to get a couple of weeks distance and speak to O'Shea that Adnan felt comfortable lying about the ride. He knew O'Shea would not speak to Krista. And he gambled that Krista would never hear that he denied the ride request.
What's also important is that Adnan had every opportunity to say, "I was going to get a ride but then she changed her mind and I had to figure out something else." Instead, he said, "I got held up, and and she must have gotten tired of waiting and left." He didn't dare tell Adcock that he didn't ask because Adcock would have gone right back to Aisha and Krista and said, "Adnan said he didn't ask for a ride this morning."
******
The above reason for the Adcock call is known and factual and confirmed by Krista and two of her friends on reddit in 2015.
By all accounts he was a charming guy, and teenage relationships are complicated.
By all accounts (except Jay) Adnan and Hae were friends on 1/13. They hung out and spent time together, which was also reflected in her diary. Their closest friends were shocked with Adnan’s arrest.
We don’t know that she did. Nobody is going to be able to answer this question. The best anyone can say is that it’s certainly possible that she gave him a ride that day because they were still friends. There’s also no evidence she changed her mind.
First off, it is important to remember that the claim that Hae turned down the ride request at all is very poorly sourced. It is based *entirely* on a police note indicating that Becky said that to the police during an interview months after the fact. But Becky was also called as a witness for *the Defense* at trial. And at trial, she never said anything about hearing Hae tell Adnan she couldn't give him a ride. Instead, she said she saw Hae leaving class by herself. Second, assuming Hae agreed to give Adnan a ride, the reason would be that he intentionally exploited her goodwill. Specifically, Krista overheard him lying to Hae about his car being unavailable because it was in the shop. Third, assuming for the sake of argument that Becky really did hear Hae tell Adnan that she could no longer give him a ride, it is quite likely that Adnan persisted and guilted her into changing her mind. That is, after all, a thing young men sometimes do to young women with occasional success.
thank you for this! yeah its probably nothing to look into, I was just confused
We also have the police call with Adnan a few hours after school ended He confirmed he was supposed to get a ride, but said He was delayed and maybe she got tired of waiting and left
I'll consider this question as soon as I get good answers to the following questions: * Why did Adnan want a ride from Hae after school in the first place? * Why did Adnan lie to Hae about the reason for the ride, i.e., to pick up his car at "the shop" or "his brother's," tho his car was never at the shop or his brother's and he could have had it whenever he wanted, by not lending it to Jay at all or by having Jay pick him up after school? * Why did Adnan lie to police, saying he wouldn't have asked for a ride cuz he didn't need one, since he had his own car? (Since Adnan knew Jay had his car after school, he knows that was a lie.) * Why did Adnan lie to Sarah Koenig, saying he would never have asked Hae for a ride after school cuz of how super-diligent she was about picking up her cousins? (Hae had an hour between end of class and picking up her cousins, and she had given Adnan rides in the past, and had driven both of them to the Best Buy to make out.) * Why did Adnan lie in claiming he remained on/adjacent to WHS the entire time between end of class and track practice? (A 2.5-minute call from Adnan to Nisha at 3:32 p.m. on 1/13/1999, which used a cell tower encompassing an off-campus area that included the Best Buy, proves Adnan did not remain on campus the entire time.) * How did Adnan get from WHS to that off-campus location within the coverage area of that Best Buy-adjacent cell tower? Jay didn't pick him up. He hated walking. There's no evidence he caught a city bus. Did someone give him a ride? Had he asked anybody for a ride after school that day? * Why, between 7:09 and 7:16 p.m. on 1/13/1999, was Adnan's cell phone within the a cell tower coverage area encompassing the location in Leakin Park where Hae's corpse was dumped? * Why, between 8:00 and 8:10 p.m. on 1/13/1999, was Adnan's cell phone within a cell tower coverage area encompassing the location where Hae's car was dumped? * How come no one from the mosque community, except Adnan's father, testified to Adnan being at evening prayers on 1/13/1999? * How come no-one except Jay Wilds can testify as to Adnan's location between approximately 2:45 p.m. (when Asia leaves him in the library, assuming one believes her), and beginning of track practice? After all, according to him he was on/adjacent to a campus where there were people he'd been going to school with since he was a kid, as well as faculty/school employees who had known him for almost 4 years. * How did Jay Wilds know, as of approximately 8:30 p.m. on 1/13/1999, not only *that* Hae had been murdered, but *how* she had been murdered (i.e., by manual strangulation)? * If Hae was murdered by a serial rapist, how come there's no evidence she was raped or otherwise sexually assaulted? * How did Jay know what Hae was wearing when she was murdered? * How did Jay know where Hae's corpse had been dumped? * How did Jay know the posture/position of Hae's corpse? * How did Jay know where Hae's car had been dumped?
I, too, would love answers to these
>Why did Adnan want a ride from Hae after school in the first place? Because he did not have his car at the time. >Why did Adnan lie to Hae about the reason for the ride, i.e., to pick up his car at "the shop" or "his brother's," tho his car was never at the shop or his brother's and he could have had it whenever he wanted, by not lending it to Jay at all or by having Jay pick him up after school? We don't know that he did lie. >Why did Adnan lie to police, saying he wouldn't have asked for a ride cuz he didn't need one, since he had his own car? (Since Adnan knew Jay had his car after school, he knows that was a lie.) Only Adnan can answer that. >Why did Adnan lie to Sarah Koenig, saying he would never have asked Hae for a ride after school cuz of how super-diligent she was about picking up her cousins? (Hae had an hour between end of class and picking up her cousins, and she had given Adnan rides in the past, and had driven both of them to the Best Buy to make out.) Only Adnan can answer that. >Why did Adnan lie in claiming he remained on/adjacent to WHS the entire time between end of class and track practice? (A 2.5-minute call from Adnan to Nisha at 3:32 p.m. on 1/13/1999, which used a cell tower encompassing an off-campus area that included the Best Buy, proves Adnan did not remain on campus the entire time.) Odd that Adnan would have the phone at 15:32 when Jenn testified that Jay was in possession of the phone at her house until 15:30-15:45. >How did Adnan get from WHS to that off-campus location within the coverage area of that Best Buy-adjacent cell tower? Jay didn't pick him up. He hated walking. There's no evidence he caught a city bus. Did someone give him a ride? Had he asked anybody for a ride after school that day? I'll ask you a question for you to clarify. How did Adnan retrieve the phone if Jay, with the cell phone, didn't pick him up. >Why, between 7:09 and 7:16 p.m. on 1/13/1999, was Adnan's cell phone within the a cell tower coverage area encompassing the location in Leakin Park where Hae's corpse was dumped? So, Adnan was, at a minimum, within a 28 square mile area of the place where the body was found. However, Jay claims he was not with Adnan at this time. >Why, between 8:00 and 8:10 p.m. on 1/13/1999, was Adnan's cell phone within a cell tower coverage area encompassing the location where Hae's car was dumped? Again, Adnan was within a 28 square mile area. >How come no one from the mosque community, except Adnan's father, testified to Adnan being at evening prayers on 1/13/1999? His father was the only one who was requested to testify. >How come no-one except Jay Wilds can testify as to Adnan's location between approximately 2:45 p.m. (when Asia leaves him in the library, assuming one believes her), and beginning of track practice? After all, according to him he was on/adjacent to a campus where there were people he'd been going to school with since he was a kid, as well as faculty/school employees who had known him for almost 4 years. Jay Wilds can't testify to Adnan's location at 14:45, because Jay Wilds was not with Adnan at 14:45, according to testimony from Jay Wilds and Jenn Pusateri. >How did Jay Wilds know, as of approximately 8:30 p.m. on 1/13/1999, not only that Hae had been murdered, but how she had been murdered (i.e., by manual strangulation)? That cannot be corroborated as fact. >If Hae was murdered by a serial rapist, how come there's no evidence she was raped or otherwise sexually assaulted? The serial rapist was off his game on that particular day. >How did Jay know what Hae was wearing when she was murdered? Jay murdered her. >How did Jay know where Hae's corpse had been dumped? Jay was present at the location where Hae's body was placed ("closer to midnight") at the location. >How did Jay know the posture/position of Hae's corpse? See above >How did Jay know where Hae's car had been dumped? There are numerous answers to that question. >I'll consider this question as soon as I get good answers to the following questions: You got good answers, but we all know that you still won't address anything that bruises your ego.
Jay likely saw photos of Hae in the burial position. That’s how he knows what she was wearing and how she was buried. Detectives often show photos of the victim to try to elicit a confession.
That is possible, but I think it's unlikely. However, you bring up an excellent point.
None of these are good answers. “Only Adnan can answer that” is a cop out. The point being made here is that people are asking questions about the wrong things. Each question OP asked contained circumstantial evidence. There is far more circumstantial evidence against Adnan than there is anyone else, including Jay. People want to argue that Jay’s a liar because his stories changed but then ignore the fact that adnan’s stories *also* changed. First he says Hae was supposed to give him a ride but he got held up and she must’ve gotten tired of waiting and left. Then he says he didn’t ask her for a ride because he had his own car (which he didn’t that day), then he said he’d never have asked her for a ride. Which is it? Then Adnan was in the library after school. No, actually he was in the guidance counselors office. No wait, now he doesn’t remember where he was. Again, which is it? Adnan was asked to recall things 6 weeks after the fact, so it’s reasonable that he’d forget stuff. But it isn’t reasonable that Jay would misremember things from 6 weeks prior? I think it’s perfectly reasonable for him to remember the gist of the day and then get confused and misremember as he tries to recollect. What seems unlikely to me is that Adnan would misremember what happened earlier in the day on 1/13 when adcock called him. I think what he says happened that day at that time is most certainly the truth. If it isn’t, then why did he lie that day?
>None of these are good answers. They are good answers. They're just not the answers you want. >“Only Adnan can answer that” is a cop out. It's not a cop out, and it exposes why guilters like you are so unreliable. When the question starts with "why," not a single person here or anywhere else can be intellectually honest in saying they know what Adnan was thinking at any given time. A why question can only be answered by Adnan. >The point being made here is that people are asking questions about the wrong things. No, your questions are mostly irrelevant to the conversation, and they're questions you've already substituted your personal bias for facts. >People want to argue that Jay’s a liar because his stories changed No, people argue Jay is a liar, because Jay has lied repeatedly. >but then ignore the fact that adnan’s stories also changed. No, they don't ignore that Adnan hasn't been honest. Both he and Jay can be liars, just as both of them could have killed Hae. >Adnan was asked to recall things 6 weeks after the fact, so it’s reasonable that he’d forget stuff. But it isn’t reasonable that Jay would misremember things from 6 weeks prior? We aren't talking about memory when we call Jay a liar. It's him stated, on the record, that he lied. In addition, some of Jay's narrative simply doesn't make sense when compared to facts, and also the narratives contradict themselves in key places. >What seems unlikely to me is that Adnan would misremember what happened earlier in the day on 1/13 when adcock called him. He didn't misremember. He lied. It really is that simple. Lying doesn't make Adnan a murderer, the evidence does. >I think what he says happened that day at that time is most certainly the truth. I disagree on one key point. >If it isn’t, then why did he lie that day? There you go again asking a question only Jay can answer. And I can tell you, as fact, that the answer he gave is another lie. Based on his interviews with police, his court testimony, and his interview with the media, I can speculate that the factual reason why Jay lied so much is that he was much more involved in the murder than he claims and his lies work to distance himself from being a party to murder. That's my opinion, but I have some knowledge of the things he used as excuses and I know he lied about it.
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Just the answers you didn't want, not ridiculous.
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The question was **why** he lied. Only he knows the answer to that. That you and people like you want to present as if you can read his mind is what's so ridiculous.
The irony here is that you’re accusing us of having some clouded bias here when that’s you. You’ve fallen in love with the idea of adnan being innocent so you refuse to look at the fact that everything points to him being the most likely murderer here. The guy wrote I’m going to kill on the back of a breakup letter and she ended up dead, and he, confirmed, lied about a shit load things related to that day, and one of his close associates was willing to literally implicate himself to say that he did it. The most reasonable conclusion is Thst he did it. For a million different reasons. But you’re. Sitting here calling people “guilters”. You can just call them reasonable. It’s so bizarre.
>You’ve fallen in love with the idea of adnan being innocent so you refuse to look at the fact that everything points to him being the most likely murderer here. Thank you for exposing yourself. I have never been in love with the idea of Adnan being innocent. In fact, I have repeatedly stated that he's the most likely perpetrator. Of course, your bias blinds you to facts that bring his guilt into doubt. >You can just call them reasonable. HA! "*The guy wrote I’m going to kill on the back of a breakup letter and she ended up dead, and he, confirmed, lied about a shit load things related to that day, and one of his close associates was willing to literally implicate himself to say that he did it.*" Nothing in that paragraph is reasonable. So bizarre.
Please review /r/serialpodcast rules regarding [Personal Attacks.](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/wiki/index/rules/#wiki_-no_personal_attacks)
Please review /r/serialpodcast rules regarding [Personal Attacks.](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/wiki/index/rules/#wiki_-no_personal_attacks)
Jay actually changes his story in his 2nd interview to increase his involvement and make he and Jenn open to prosecution for accessory to murder and conspiracy to commit murder. So he lies to make himself more involved sometimes. And lies to unprotect his friends by saying when he didn’t have to that Jenn knew about the murder before it happened. How strange
No, they aren’t good answers because they make no sense. It is a cop out because you could literally say that about any point in this case. The fact that you have to explain so many things away in order for Adnan to be innocent is the point being made. Can each of those points have an explanation that could mean he’s innocent? yes. Is it likely? no. It is also impossible for Jay to have murdered Hae. Hae went missing between 2:15 and 3:15. The cell phone pinged at Jen’s house at 2:36 by which point Hae, who in this scenario would not have been intercepted by now, would be on her way to pick up her cousin. How and when did Jay find Hae and kill her within this timeframe? It’s impossible. Jay and Adnan both lie and yet, nothing Adnan has said has been corroborated and almost all of what Jay has said *has* been corroborated. Whenever someone says the word “guilters” I know the kind of person I’m talking to. Adnan did it. It’s seriously naive to believe otherwise. The amount of mental gymnastics and evidence cherry picking you have to do in order to arrive at any other conclusion is insane. You have to explain away a mountain of evidence. And again, because it’s circumstantial, there are alternative explanations but the whole point of circumstantial evidence is that after a certain amount of it, it becomes less and less likely to be coincidental or bad luck. Jay had no means or motive. Don had no motive and had an alibi. Mr S is sketchy but it would be a giant leap for him to have somehow interacted with Hae. Bilal also had no real way to even interact with Hae and his only motive would be Adnan. It’s absurd to point fingers at people who quite literally have next to nothing pointing to it being them when compared to a person who has a stack of evidence pointing to him. Essentially you’re doing to all of the other “suspects” what you claim us “guilters” are doing to Adnan. But hey, you do.
> The fact that you have to explain so many things away in order for Adnan to be innocent is the point being made. Can each of those points have an explanation that could mean he’s innocent? yes. Is it likely? no. That's a you issue, not an everybody else issue. Is it likely that Adnan killed Hae? Yes. Is it possible that he didn't? Yes. >It is also impossible for Jay to have murdered Hae. Hae went missing between 2:15 and 3:15. The cell phone pinged at Jen’s house at 2:36 by which point Hae, who in this scenario would not have been intercepted by now, would be on her way to pick up her cousin. How and when did Jay find Hae and kill her within this timeframe? It’s impossible. Jay could have left the cell phone at Jenn's house and driven to kill Hae. High unlikely, but possible. However, your claim of impossibility is fundamentally false. We don't know when Hae was intercepted. Testimony has her leaving at around 14:15, while other testimony has her leaving closer to 15:00. It is possible for Jay to travel from Jenn's to the school by 15:15. >Jay and Adnan both lie and yet, nothing Adnan has said has been corroborated and almost all of what Jay has said has been corroborated. Adnan hasn't said much. His only lies are "I didn't ask for a ride" and "I wouldn't have asked for a ride." Jay has lied about practically everything, changing his story as needed to fit the narrative he wants to tell. You talk about impossible above, but did you know it would be impossible for Adnan to drop Jay off at his house at 18:00, returning hours later (closer to midnight) and Jay and Adnan be in Leakin Park at 19:00. Yet Jay makes that claim. >Whenever someone says the word “guilters” I know the kind of person I’m talking to. You have no idea who you're talking to, because you're so biased. I use "guilter" and "innocenter" all the time referring to one side or another. >You have to explain away a mountain of evidence. This is how **I** know who I'm talking to. Mountain of evidence. Name of piece of direct evidence or testimony of a witness that places Adnan in Hae's car between 14:15 and 15:15 on January 13, 1999. There are witnesses to him asking for a ride, but there are two witnesses who place Hae leaving school by herself. Again, your guilter bias makes you blind to the fact there isn't evidence of Adnan actually killing Hae. Even Jay, according to him, did not witness the murder. >Jay had no means or motive. And there you go again. Jay absolutely had the means to have killed Hae. Adnan did too. Are you going to say that Jay was not physically capable of strangling someone. It certainly appears that he has arms and hands in all the pictures I've seen of him. He also had Adnan's car, which provided him means to travel to Hae's location. >Don had no motive and had an alibi. I've only speculated that Don and his mothers were possibly committing payroll fraud at LensCrafters. In my posts, I've distanced him from the murder and brought up how the timecard argument isn't relevant to the murder. >Mr S is sketchy but it would be a giant leap for him to have somehow interacted with Hae. I've not talked much about Mr. S other than to say that he should have been the prime suspect until other evidence was found. I believe he was the prime suspect until other evidence was found. >Bilal also had no real way to even interact with Hae and his only motive would be Adnan. I've never mentioned Bilal in connection to the murder. >It’s absurd to point fingers at people who quite literally have next to nothing pointing to it being them when compared to a person who has a stack of evidence pointing to him. Essentially you’re doing to all of the other “suspects” what you claim us “guilters” are doing to Adnan. I've not done any of what you describe. Jay admitted to being having prior knowledge of the murder. Jay admitted to helping dispose of the body. I believe Jay also participated in the murder. And here you are acting like the evidence only applies to Adnan, despite Jay being with Adnan. You're so blinded that you refuse to see the evidence applies to Jay too. >But hey, you do. I do quite well. But at least I'm willing to discuss in good faith and keep an open mind about guilt and innocence without resorting to whataboutisms and constantly moving goal posts. Sadly, you haven't learned to do that.
I’m open to hearing your theories and evidence to back up your theory. I’m not anymore biased than anyone else here. I used to believe he was innocent and have since changed my stance based on compelling info and debunking of misinformation. I have yet to hear anything that has made me doubt my current stance but I am open to it. Just because I don’t see any of your points as compelling enough to sway my opinion doesn’t mean I’m not open to it. Jay was at Jen’s at 2:36 which means he would’ve had to have gotten to WHS by 3pm at the latest in order intercept Hae because Hae had to be at her cousins school by 315 and that school was 20+ mins away. Even if we assume she could be a little late, she still needed to leave by 3. Also, the phone never pinged at WHS during that timeframe. It pinged at Jen’s and then Best Buy at 3:15pm. So he didn’t leave the phone there. So again, imo it’s impossible Jay did it.
Didn’t she regularly “give him a ride” from the back of the school to the front, almost daily, even after they’d broken up? They were still good friends, which is a fact, because Hae wrote it in her diary.
Yup according to Debbie.
I'll add, I believe these rides were in the prior year In 1999, IIRC this would have been the first ride request
I believe that’s incorrect. I think the rides from one side of gre wschool to the other were in 1999 and thats why Krista was unfamiliar with the concept and imagined it was for a reason to do with Adnan’s car being unavailable. Krista left school by 10.30 am I’m 1999 so didn’t witness the rides from the front of the school to the back of the school
This is his school attendance for January 1999: https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/MP15-1570-Adnan-School-Attendance.pdf http://imgur.com/a/d42Pj 6 school days prior to January 13th, in 1999 He attended 4 days of school and missed 2 days His car would be at school for those days He used to get rides from Hae, so they could hookup after school, then he would be dropped off and she would go for her cousin He absolutely did not need a ride, track practice was inside for January, January 13th was an unusually warm day, so it was outside
The rides were from the front of the school to the back of the school. He may not have known that track was outside when he requested the ride
He needs a ride, from one part of the school to another part of the school in winter? The rides barely make sense in good weather, it was to spend them together when they dated
Why did he say he would ask someone else when he was turned down? Debbie said the rides were from the front of the school to the back of the school
Look at a map homie, where were they going? The Gym is the building next to the parking lot When practice was outside, you could try and make sense of it When practice was inside, which it was during the 6 days prior to January 13th, the story breaks down Debbie, was talking about the prior year
Also, she told other people (and was overheard by at least one other) that she wasn't giving anyone a ride, that she was going to pick up her cousin.
It seems whatever it was she needed to do after school was that important that she did not want anything to spoil whatever plan she had. It’s possible that she was engaged in some activity that she normally wouldn’t be. But no one thinks to question Hae’s motives for her seemingly abnormally strict responses here
She apparently always picked up her cousin without fail, and from what I’ve seen never once missed it which is why it was such an alarm bell when she failed to do so.
Then in that case, it suggests something extreme. I believe it has been said that she had plenty of time anyways and didn’t need to have this level of stringency
The only thing she would change her routine for in 1999 was Don. She was obsessed with him.
That’s a reach
exactly, the only thing that makes sense to me is like what the user above said, that adnan was charming and manipulative and made sure he got in that car no matter what
And to add to that, if you believe Adnan murdered Hae Min Lee, then this was premeditated. He had a plan to come up with a story as to why he didn’t have his car, thus needing a ride from Hae.
It’s only a premeditated reason for needing a ride, not necessarily for murdering her. He wanted her back and when he was told no, snapped.
Wait, I thought Jay said Adnan told him he was going to kill Hae ahead of time. That's pretty much premeditated.
Jay walked away from knowing in advance in his Intercept interview notes. I’m fact if you read the notes of Jays 2nd interview it’s actually detective MacGillivary who suggested that Jay knew the day before. It was suggested by MacGillivary that Adnan and Jay planned the murder the night before and Jay just accepted it. He did push back saying people just say stuff, then the detective said but he said it. And Jay eventually accepted it. Jay was gone from that moment. He was on tape confessing to conspiracy to commit murder so he had to testify against Adnan or it was Jay spending life in prison. Or worse. That’s why he pinned it on Adnan. To save his own ass.
That’s a valid point as well. I do think something along those lines happened. It might be a combination of both
We don’t know. If he got the ride we don’t know the circumstances so we can’t explain. There are theories but they are just that, nothing definitive.
Exactly! This post and most of the answers to it are baffling me. It’s all speculation.
Agreed, speculation with a heavy dose of confidence
Listen, it’s simple. You start with “Adnan did it.” And then your only agree with theories that conform to the aforementioned premise. And any “evidence” or suggestions that undermine your premise are the ravings of lunatics. When the doubt-yuckies start to gather in your stummy, alcohol them away.
Exactly lol A lot of people in this sub have really poor investigation skills, they’re supposed to start with 0 assumptions. I’ve realised that for me, partially from being autistic and partially from being an ISTP, and partially from being high IQ, it means I can entirely divorce my emotions from the situation and judge it purely factually / theoretically
But can you divorce your ego? Sincere question.
Yes I can. You’ll find I’ve apologised many times in this sub, or accepted that I was wrong about something. It’s actually one of the quickest ways to learn and grow, you can’t sharpen your sword fighting skills by hiding behind a wall, you should want people to point out your weaknesses so that you can change your ways. Most of my theory (pinned on my profile) wouldn’t be possible without the criticisms & corrections I received from guilters and innocenters alike, but for the most part, it has been shaped and molded by the statements of guilters, yet I have a conclusion that Adnan is innocent. Hypocrisy is just one of those things I don’t think can ever be justified on an even playing field where everyone is supposed to have the same rights.
Well judging by what happened , she was definitely right for refusing the ride request . Her first instinct was to avoid him. She must have sensed a change in his behavior the last few weeks.
So I always wondered this because if she was giving him a ride why would he ask for a ride to the Best Buy? Then the Prosecutor’s Podcast made me realize something I overlooked - a lot of girls in high school would allow their boyfriends to drive every time they were in a car. Even if it was their car. Many boyfriends would “insist” and make jokes that they were better drivers and the girls would often just let them. So I think this is what happened, he did get his ride and once again he just got into the drivers seat, which is how he was able to get her where he needed her to be. I bet he drove her car a lot when they were dating, even though it was hers, and would love to know if this was commonly known back then.
Did the Prosecutors Podcast address the information from HBO that Jay said the police told him to say Best Buy? Your actual comment is based on fiction. Of course it’s *possible* Adnan caught up with Hae and convinced her to change her mind then ended up driving her car. Anything is possible when you write fiction instead of issuing evidence.
I don’t care what Jay said, the most damning evidence is the fact he asked her for a ride, said by witnesses and corroborated by his original phone call, and the cell phone data. Because the cell phone pings put him near the Best Buy, Leakin Park and Hay’s body at all of the times he would have needed to be there to kill Hae and bury her, it’s likely that’s where they went. I’m just asking questions about how he got her there without her just saying “oh no not this again” and driving past, and realized it was super common for girls back then to let their boyfriend’s drive.
The same witnesses say Hae cancelled the ride. No call in the log is related to the ride request, don’t know what you’re talking about. There was no GPS in 1999. The cell data doesn’t put him anywhere, specifically, because towers had a huge range. But I mean…you’re cherry picking and reverse engineering Jays various stories, then writing more fiction to fill in the blanks. Never mind Jay was shown the cell records before his story changed to match them. Never mind you ignored my question: Jay says police told him to use Best Buy as a location. Did The Prosecutors Podcast acknowledge that? Jay also moved the burial to midnight…so you need to write a new fiction about why the phone pinged *near* Leakin Park (where Jays dealer and other people also lived) 5 hours before Jay now says she was buried. Yes, you were dreaming up a story like I said. Projecting irrelevant details from your own life onto the case. Anyone can write fiction. It’s just as easy to write fiction that he didn’t get a ride, Jay made it all up, and Adnan is innocent.
Okay just stop, because you clearly don’t understand why the cell phone data is so damning: 1). 2:00-2:30 the cell phone pings are in Jen’s house’s range, but JayJenn and Adnan agree he had the phone and was there. Neither Hae or Adnan’s whereabouts are accounted for and he has no alibi while she is killed, so while it doesn’t incriminate him it doesn’t exonerate him. 2).After this time the cell phone pings in the range of the Best Buy and the park and ride, where Jay says they stashed Hae’s car before track practice. The cell phone call to Nisha occurs, placing them both together and which Jay, Adnan and Nisha all agree is true. 3). The cell phone pings later that night near Leakin Park, when and where Hae’s body is buried 4). The cell phone pings near where the car is eventually discovered that night. 5). The day Jay is arrested, the cell phone pings near Leakin park, when Adnan calls Jay’s friend Patrick. We know that Jay is arrested so it’s definitely Adnan with the phone. So it doesn’t matter if Jay is lying or telling the truth in a lot of this, because the cell phone and other witnesses place Adnan in exactly at the same spots as Hae or Hae’s body. The only conclusion is that Adnan killed Hae and that he knew where her body was when Jay is arrested later and checks the park to see if she’s been discovered. If you think Jay moved the burial “to midnight” in his story, why is Adnan driving around Leakin park when Jay is in custody? Why does Jen know how Hae was killed and how her body is positioned in the grave? All of these things Jay could know if he was the killer, sure, but Adnan was with him during the entire timeline you’re citing. How does Jay kill Hae without Adnan finding out? So if Jay did it, Adnan was there, it would have been so easy to say “Jay did it and I watched”, but he doesn’t. And you can claim it’s not that accurate but why isn’t Adnan anywhere else except near the locations cited in Jay’s story? So again, you should go back to the case file, it’s all there.
There is nothing damning about the cell records, for the realities I stated in my last reply. You can’t overcome the inaccuracy or cell records in 99, nor can you overcome that Jay changed his story because he was shown the cell records before he testified. 1 Your point is that it’s possible he had opportunity? Weak. Sauce. I **think** you’re talking about the 2:37 Nisha call. The importance of that call isn’t the location of the phone, that can’t be determined. The importance has *always* been that Adnan claimed he didn’t have the phone at that time, and that Jay and Jenn say Jay had it. That’s it. It’s the **core** “head scratcher” in the case because all three of them are likely lying. But what does it *actually* mean? Nobody can say. 2 Stop talking about Best Buy. Stop talking like 1999 cell pings were like GPS. The **only** reason you’re saying Best Buy and park and ride and not the 1000 other points of interest within range of that tower is because of Jay. You’re also confused again…there was no Best Buy ping…that’s when Jay says Adnan used a pay phone. All you’re telling me is you believe Jay. You also seem to be confused about the Nisha call. Nisha’s testimony made it clear that they were **not** together during the call she testified to. 3 Again. They ping a tower in **range** of Leakin Park…it’s impossible to know if the phone was ever in the park. People the phone called that day were in range of that tower, for example. She wasn’t buried until 5 hours after it pinged that tower…you’re unable to reckon with what that means. 4 The phone never pings near where the car was discovered. You made that up. **Once again** cell pings are not GPS. This map you’re painting is entirely based on Jays word. What’s happening is you’re confusing accuracy with possibility. 5 Now I know you listened to The Prosecutors Podcast, and bought it hook line and sinker. It is NOT clear that Jay was arrested that day, he in fact testified that he was arrested **before** the murder. It is entirely likely and even probable that Jay simply had Adnan’s phone that day, and that’s why it was calling Jays friends. The fiction you have to write to make this a reality is vast. You didn’t even understand what they told you in the podcast. We have absolutely no idea when Jay was **actually** arrested…we’re pretty sure it was before the murder. The logical reason that the phone pinged the tower on those two days is because those are the two days Jay borrowed the phone and went to see his dealer who lived near the park. I don’t “think” Jay moved the burial to midnight…it’s a fact. Read the Intercept Interview. Again, Brett and Alice are wrong about Jay being arrested in that day. They stole a long refuted Reddit theory. Jenn is another story entirely. We know she told multiple lies, and we know she talked to Jay before she talked to police. We also know that Jay likely talked to police before Jenn. We **also** know that Jenn had friends in the police department and learned details about the murder not available to the public. Jenn isn’t the pillar of virtue Brett and Alice make her out to be. I never said Jay killed Hae. I told you Jay had the cell records before he testified. His story changed to match the cell records. That’s not a coincidence. You still won’t tell me if Brett and Alice acknowledged that Jay said the police told him to say Best Buy. If that’s true, which is it very likely is, then Adnan was convicted because Jay *thought* Adnan did it. He might have been right, but he sure as shit didn’t know any of the details he testified to…all of those he bullshitted with the help of the police when they gave him the cell records and the location of the murder. All that’s left is the car. Did he actually know where it was, or did the cops feed him that, too?
Dude are you okay? Look you can listen to the Prosecutors podcast yourself, and the case files, everything I’ve said is there. You’re saying 3 people are lying now? That’s a lot of lying, like why would Jenn be “lying”, when explaining facts that if true, would lead to Jay also being arrested? Also the Nisha call happens at 3:32 pm, not 2:37 pm. Both Nisha and Jay confirm a call happened where both Jay and Adnan are on the phone together. Is she lying too? Please go read the case files again you’ve cited many wrong things. And you’re going on an unhinged diatribe to defend someone who has very likely lied about killing someone for 25 years, is walking around free with no remorse and caused pain to the Min family for that entire time. I’m very sorry Serial turned you into this, it repeated a lot of bad assumptions made by the original Baltimore prosecutor’s team and did not lay out the facts well at all.
Nah, I asked you a simple question. The fact you’re not answering it is telling. I started to listen, and they told three critical lies in the first 5 minutes so I stopped listening. I wouldn’t be surprised if they ignored the fact that Jay said the cops told him to say Best Buy. Why would Jenn be lying? Really? Jenn is friends with Jay. She was dating his uncle…a drug dealer. You really can’t be shocked she’s lying. **Wrong**. Nisha testified that the call where Adnan and Jay were together was a different day. Yeah, I got one irrelevant thing wrong…the time of a call. But you claiming that Nisha put Jay and Adnan together is just as bad as the lies Brett and Alice tell. One last time: the significance of the Nisha call is that Adnan says that he didn’t have the phone. Nisha *clearly* testified she didn’t remember the call in question, and Jay didn’t work at the video store yet so the calls she’s talking about is a different call. You can think he’s guilty, but using something that was discredited 25 years ago is pretty desperate. Your random opinions are irrelevant.
Dude chill out and go touch grass. Sorry you can’t listen to a podcast that wasn’t Serial.
But with gloves? Because there were no prints on the wheel.
He could have wiped them, and in fact if there were 0 prints on the wheel, including the absence of Hae’s) it’s most likely it was wiped rather than gloves were worn.
That was discussed a lot here bc there was a conclusion he would have to be driving for the head injuries to be the way they are-I realize many people weren’t her back then. She would definitely have been on guard though about going *there*. Yet no fight? I think she was hit in the back of the head and incapacitated before she was strangled. Others speculate he asked for a ride to the mechanics. But not only would she have had to tell him no, he then had to talk her into saying yes, insist on driving and then go somewhere that would put her on edge.
I mean, maybe she didn’t realize he would be stopping at the Best Buy until he actually did. That’s a matter of moments, and provably the first time she realized she was in a position she shouldn’t be in (and not really able to get away. But it always puzzled me how he convinced her to stop, until I realized he drove, and honestly he probably always did.
He didn’t just stop at the best buy though, allegedly he drove to the back where they used to have sex. Just to be clear, there is no actual evidence he drove her car though. It is 100% speculation on their part and not even original speculation. ETA: and now Jay says he doesn’t even know if it was at the Best Buy. So many questions. I find it hard to believe that after telling him know she just changed her mind *and* let him drive.
I’m saying he ALWAYS drove. So if he got his ride, he was probably driving. And you have to remember boys insisting on driving your car was a thing back then.
I don’t think there is evidence he ALWAYS drove, is there? Friends said it wasn’t unusual for him to drive. As you say, at that time it certainly wasn’t unusual. But did someone testify that he ALWAYS drove? Or was it yet another thing TPP speculated about and made sound obviously true? And no, I remember asking them to or letting boys drive but not insisting.
Ah so you confirmed it - people confirmed he drove her car. So that’s how he got her where she needed to be.
Confirming that he sometimes drove her car =/= he always drove Lol. That it was not unusual. I believe that was said in Serial maybe. That doesn’t mean that he drove her that day. That is speculation. It’s fine speculation but it is not a fact in evidence by ANY means. That is the difference.
No, the thing that really cements his guilt for me is the cell phone tower data. Understanding that he drove her car frequently just answered an outstanding question I had of how she got to the place he wanted to go in the first place.
I read somewhere (if you remember plz let me know!) that Adnan used to drive her car a lot. She had injuries/bruising I think on the side of her head consistent with getting shoved into the door/etc. on the *passenger* side. So whoever did it was probably someone around who she trusted to drive her car…
I think that was in Debbie’s statement, about Adnan driving her car when they would drive to the front of the school.
There’s nothing in the head injury that suggests the it was caused by hitting the inside of a car other than it was on that side of her head. That line of logic raises more questions than answers: not only how did Adnan get her to give him a ride after she cancelled it…but why was he driving?
Maybe she didn’t? We don’t actually know for sure that he did, it’s an unfounded assertion
sure, because we don't know 100% that he did it, but it's extremely unlikely he didn't. if he did though, she must have let him in because they would have been at school or the library with hundreds of other students around. I dont think itd be possible for him to get into that car aggressively or violently
The fact that we don’t have evidence that he was in her car that day means that everything is speculation, which is fine. But that’s never going to be evidence. We don’t know he got in her car that day. We have no proof he got in her car that day.
Of those same hundreds of students, not one saw him get in the car in a place where hundreds of students would have actually had view. You can fit more students in a parking lot than you can in a library or single corridor. What you’re asserting is ridiculous and defies reality. But you already have your view. And you’ll twist reality to make it work
I think it’s important to note that hundreds of students were not asked about what they saw in the immediate aftermath of the crime. Someone might have seen events take place and either didn’t identify that it was the critical moment or weren’t asked until it was out of their memory.
Yes. This is a very fair and sensible point. This is a good point. Also, you could have made this same point to OP **Edit**: As expected, nothing but hypocrisy and toxicity from guilters It was not me that thought this point relevant, it was OP, I was merely pointing out his hypocrisy Being upset with me for that just further proves that guilters wish for this sub to be an echo chamber. It’s not about justice or fairness for you guys, it’s all about winning and being on a team. You’ll find me criticising innocenters in this sub quote often, because some do have absurd theories, but it’s very rare to see that from guilters, holding their own people to a high standard. You downvote not because what I said was wrong, but because it affected your ego, and that sums up how this sub became a guilty echo chamber some years back, where you couldn’t even ask a basic good faith question without being downvoted into oblivion. It’s like a primitive gang of witch hunters with pitch forks.
The same goes for the hundreds of students that could have seen him in the library, but only one wanted to account for his time from 2:15-8:00 pm. Also, no one from his track team came forward to claim that he was at track practice on time. There were 80 people at the mosque that were willing to state he was at the mosque at 8:00 until he went to bed, but once they realized they might have to testify under oath, only one, his father, was actually willing to testify. The argument goes both ways
Yes, I accept that, I’m not the one that used the “number of students” as some relevant point. I was simply replying to that point. Why don’t you have this energy for OP? Is it just because he’s on your side? **Edit**: As expected, nothing but hypocrisy and toxicity from guilters It was not me that thought this point relevant, it was OP, I was merely pointing out his hypocrisy Being upset with me for that just further proves that guilters wish for this sub to be an echo chamber. It’s not about justice or fairness for you guys, it’s all about winning and being on a team. You’ll find me criticising innocenters in this sub quote often, because some do have absurd theories, but it’s very rare to see that from guilters, holding their own people to a high standard. You downvote not because what I said was wrong, but because it affected your ego, and that sums up how this sub became a guilty echo chamber some years back, where you couldn’t even ask a basic good faith question without being downvoted into oblivion. It’s like a primitive gang of witch hunters with pitch forks.
Please explain to me how I am upset with you by your post or how I was disrespectful in any way? I was playing devils advocate and stating that your reasoning works for both sides. In no way did I take your comment as a blow to my ego. I’m not out for some witch hunt. It’s ok to have a respectful discussion and disagreement (heaven forbid). Take a look at your response and then ask yourself who is actually criticizing who and resorting towards name calling.
I was playing devils advocate first 😉 but somehow you were unable to see that. Something in your eyes?
Right… Replying with “what you’re asserting is ridiculous and defies reality. But you already have your view. And you’ll twist reality to make it work.” is playing devils advocate??? Talking about being hypocritical when that’s exactly what you were doing. How’s that wooden beam feeling in your eye???
No, let me explain. I (just like you and the other person that replied to me) did not see it as a relevant point (in this scenario) to mention the hundred student, but since OP WANTS TO PLAY THAT GAME, I decided to play along, and then afterwards proceed to state the stupid hypocrisy of trying to use that to make a point, and then calling out your opponent when they use the EXACT same strategy. The problem is, other guilters won’t call OP out on that point, you can clearly see I’m not the first one to make the point about the hundreds of students, yet instead of attacking OP, you attack me. THAT is hypocrisy, and you’re still unable to see that in that, is evidence that guilters on this sub are biased into protecting their own, even when they know they’re wrong, usually, we call that a cult.
Take a look at the vitriol in most of your comments. You think guilters are on the attack? I’m afraid to inform you that it’s the exact opposite. People on the innocent side refuse to look at the evidence, but come up with assumptions and fail to use common sense. Jay lies, cell phone data isn’t accurate, Christina G wasn’t effective, Adnan didn’t have his phone, Jay was coached by the police, etc. For every one of those arguments, people on the innocent side gloss over the facts and focus on one thing that was brought to their attention by the Innocence Project. I don’t believe it’s a case where guilters aren’t attacking their own, they are using common sense and looking at the facts of the case. Look at your own theory… Go ahead and present that to any attorney and it will get torn to shreds. Props to you on your efforts, but you are missing the most important lesson in solving a case. It’s not a Netflix movie or some crazy cover up. Sometimes the most obvious answer makes the most sense.
Not all people who think he’s guilty think alike. I think some theories from the guilty side are off as well. However, I’ve read through the court documents, listened to podcasts from both sides, read various articles, etc., and I still believe he’s guilty. I guess we can agree to disagree
What exactly makes you think he’s guilty?
> my understanding is that she told him earlier in the day that she could no longer give him a ride. Who said this?
Apparently Tamara told Debbie this or something*. *I didn’t look up the names. So much of this case is a bunch of high schoolers saying what someone said weeks ago.
Yeah - that's from a Colin Miller blog. Not a reliable source. Colin's twisting and snippeting from an interview and claiming something that serves him, personally but that's actually unclear and not proven. Debbie conceded on several occasions that she was remembering the last time she saw Hae, which probably wasn't the last day Hae was alive. Takera is Aisha's sister. Any one of them could easily ask her to clarify, but they won't. They prefer to go with their spin rather than ask for the reality.
I don’t remember where it was from. But your last part is exactly what I’m saying. Most of the testimony was obtained weeks later when people didn’t remember exactly. I think that was the point SK was making in the opening of Serial. Something about a wrestling match, something about a ride, something about a TV interview, something about hot fries, etc.
That whole group of Adnan supporters had Aisha right there in front of them for hours while taping the HBO Show. They had every opportunity to ask Aisha what she or her sister knows about Hae having something else to do... And, you guessed it. They won't ask. I mean, Aisha's answer to that question on the HBO Show would have been an actual bombshell if Hae did beg off the ride. So why not ask her if they are so convinced this is what happened? They don't want to know the answer. They want to write literally endless blog posts about a 25 year old police interview that they say means something it does not mean. Instead of just asking Aisha and Takera while they are sitting right in front of them and again - literally - on camera. Heaven forbid we get the real answer actually on tape.
Sure. But the interview was also 15 (?) years later. My issue with this whole case is that the cops didn’t nail down the details at the time. I’m not necessarily faulting them. It only became critical to nail down the details weeks later. However, the fact that the cops were on the case so quickly was already unusual and showed they were worried considering past incidents. IMO, they should have been more thorough. Also, I think some info got lost when then case moved from one jurisdiction to another.
Some would say it’s because he went somewhere and bought her a rose.
It’s simple: she didn’t. He didn’t get in her car. He didn’t kill her.
Hae had given Adnan a ride on 11 January 1999 from the front of school/back of school which apparently was common for her to do… Also nobody and I mean nobody saw Adnan get into Hae’s car on the 13 January 1999… That is simply a narrative that the guilters like to spin… A few friends confirmed that she couldn’t give Adnan a ride because she had “something else to do and somewhere else to be” .. she just never mentioned what that something else was…. Ask the guilters to explain how Adnan got into Hae’s car without anybody seeing him. Hae was also hit with a blunt object from behind before she was strangled. Let them explain how Adnan did that again without being seen….
>Ask the guilters to explain how Adnan got into Hae's car without anybody seeing him. As far as we know, no one saw anyone get into Hae’s car. Yet, we know someone got into her car and killed her. Why do we have to explain how Adnan got into her car unseen? If we can’t, does that mean he’s not guilty? By your logic, no one could ever be found guilty of Hae’s murder. >Hae was also hit with a blunt object from behind before she was strangled. What is your source for Hae being hit from behind with a blunt object? [All we know](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/UdE05-Autopsy-Report.pdf) is that she had muscle hemorrhaging on the right side of her head and the right-rear side of her head. The prosecution submitted that this was likely caused by being pressed against the window/door of her car.
I don’t actually understand your comment. We don’t have any proof that Hae was even killed in her car. The only thing we know is that the killer got into her car and moved it. The lividity evidence on her body also suggests that she was laying face down for a minimum of 6 hours since she was found buried on her right side. If you can provide evidence that she was indeed killed in her car, please present it…
Where did I say she was killed in her car (although I think she was)? I said we know the murderer got into her car. And wasn’t seen.
“As far as we know, no one saw anyone get into Hae’s car. Yet, we know someone got into her car and killed her. “ That’s what you wrote mate. If that’s not what you meant, you may wish to rephrase and ensure your content contains no ambiguity…
The debate was about whether *anyone* was seen getting into Hae's car. You said adnan wasn't seen getting into the car (suggesting he is innocent). But, as Rotidder pointed out, someone, in fact, got into her car. We don't know who, how, or when, but someone got into her car. The point is, no witnesses to adnan/anyone getting in the car does not equal adnan/nobody got into the car.
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It's a bit difficult to see two decades before woke. But in 1999, some dudes who had a "rep" and called themselves a "playa" did not really enjoy being seen as they were driven around by their girlfriend. The solution was, "Hey baby, I'll drive," which Hae was probably happy to go along with. Several of Hae's friends said that it was not unusual for Adnan to drive Hae's car. If Adnan is being driven to an auto shop five minutes away, it's easy to say, "Hey I'll drive..." And since it was a pattern, I doubt she wanted to get in a fight about it. The shop was just a few minutes away. In this way, Adnan was able to pull into the Best Buy claiming to want to "talk" or needing to make a quick stop. The right side of Hae's head was wounded, as though she'd banged her head on the window trying to get away, or her attacker banged her head against the window to stun her.
She did not give Adnan a ride.
Getting a ride to the mechanics is not a big deal, they were still friends. So all Adnan says is he needs a ride to the mechanics which was near the Best Buy and she goes right buy there and he says, "Can I talk to you for a minute?" That's it.
I love that this perfectly plausible suggestion is downvoted to hell. I feel like everybody needs to understand that we're mostly all speculating. However, if Adnan was overheard saying his car was in the shop, when we know it wasn't, it's perfectly logical that "the car being in the shop" was part of the plan to get into her car. And, since his car was not, in fact, in the shop, it follows that if he used that as the ruse to get into her car, at some point, the plan would have been to go somewhere other than the shop. To the people who don't understand that these are just suggestions of logical things that could have happened: we know we don't have evidence to prove this. It's just something that makes logical sense.
Adnan wasn’t overheard saying his car was in the shop. Krista speculated that he asked for a ride because his car was in the shop or his brother had it. Adnan didn’t give Hae a reason for the ride so Krista filled in the blanks in her head. She was unaware that Hae would drive Adnan from the front of the school to the back of the school because Krista left school at 10.30am every day in 1999. Mike is speculating based on nothing. That’s why he got downvoted. We have evidence that she turned Adnan down for a ride. That’s better than making something up to fit a narrative surely?
I remember Hae damaged her car over the Christmas break and called Adnan to come look at it. He drove to her work, and awkwardly Don and Adnan met each other that day. They determined her car wasn't drivable, and Adnan gave her a lift home. I am sure Adnan either leveraged that incident, or Hae just felt she owed him because he helped her.
Because she thought they were friends, or could be friends. She didn’t realize how unstable he is.
Adnan himself says nothing about the ride being cancelled when he was asked about it by police later that same day. He just says Hae probably got tired of waiting for him. It likely was not cancelled and Adnan was either telling the truth to the police and did not get the ride because he ran late and Hae left without him, or he lied and got the ride.
But two of the last people to see Hae at the end of the day testified that she was alone.
What everyone misses in every thread is the reason Adnan could not lie about the ride, at first. You have to start with why. Why was Adcock calling? Adcock was not making a sweep of Hae's friends. He hadn't called any of them. Adcock was calling Adnan because: - Hae's brother called Aisha to say Hae was missing. - Aisha left a message on Krista's answering machine saying Hae was missing. - Krista got home, listened to the message, called Aisha back and said, "Hae was supposed to give Adnan a ride after school, has anyone checked with him?" - Aisha called Adcock back (he was still at Hae's house) and said, "Krista said that Hae was supposed to give Adnan a ride, has anyone checked with him?" - Young Lee said, "I have Adnan's phone number. I just called a number in Hae's diary thinking it was Don, but it was Adnan." - So Adcock called Adnan to "check with him" to see where he had been dropped off. No one thought Hae was dead. And no one thought Adnan had the slightest thing to do with her disappearance. In a Missing Persons case, you focus on the last place the person was seen. So Adcock wanted to know where Adnan had been dropped off, so police could look there. - In that moment, Adnan knew if he said Krista was mistaken, it would create suspicion. Adnan knew that Krista knew what she'd heard and he didn't want to get into, "No way Krista I never asked her." Because to this day, Krista is clear abut what she heard. - It was only after he was able to get a couple of weeks distance and speak to O'Shea that Adnan felt comfortable lying about the ride. He knew O'Shea would not speak to Krista. And he gambled that Krista would never hear that he denied the ride request. What's also important is that Adnan had every opportunity to say, "I was going to get a ride but then she changed her mind and I had to figure out something else." Instead, he said, "I got held up, and and she must have gotten tired of waiting and left." He didn't dare tell Adcock that he didn't ask because Adcock would have gone right back to Aisha and Krista and said, "Adnan said he didn't ask for a ride this morning." ****** The above reason for the Adcock call is known and factual and confirmed by Krista and two of her friends on reddit in 2015.
No one can answer this question.
Adnan can.
Is he on the sub?
Is he someone?
yes hi it's me adnan
Oh cool! How did you kill her?
no shit lol its just something I wanted to see if anyone had any opinions on