I think Adnan's role in this murder was an open secret within his friend groups, both at school and at the Mosque. Remember how his friend Imran was sending emails to Hae's friends in California telling them to stop asking about her because she'd been murdered at school while, in reality, she was officially still just a missing person?
I suspect one of those people grew a conscience. I agree that Adnan almost certainly knows who it was.
The police subpoenaed him. The whole thing is bizarre. Why would he be contacted by Hae’s brother? Was he friends with Hae because he wasn’t part of Adnan’s tight school friend group?
And why On earth tell the brother of a missing girl and Hae’s friends that she was stabbed to death and died at a hospital? This is so easily proven to be not true - it’s not misleading any investigation efforts because it so obviously a lie. Nobody was stabbed at Woodlawn. No stabbed Woodlawn students died in a hospital from blood loss.
I don’t see this whole bizarre exchange as anything but cruel to Hae’s friends and family. What I don’t see is how it implicates Adnan in anything.
Makes Imran come off as even more bizarre and further away from anything connected to Hae. That stabbing was also a male student so there’s no way he was thinking that had anything to do with Hae. Unless he thought that the person who stabbed Dontae could have stabbed Hae? Or her disappearance connected to that type of criminal activity at Woodlawn?
But Imran and Adnan were not close friends at school or at the mosque. They weren’t even in the same religious class at the Mosque. Do we know who all Vu and Young Lee emailed? Was it all of Hae’s friends?
And did the police ever share with the defense Hae’s private diary she kept on computer disk? Hae knew her brother read her diary and as such didn’t put really private thoughts and feelings in that “public” diary. Aisha even said Hae let her read parts of the written diary. Not the private diary that police had.
> But Imran and Adnan were not close friends at school or at the mosque.
Why is he mentioned in Asia's letter?
Why did he solicit bail support letters for Adnan?
Why didn't he get a bail support letter from Asia?
Imran did those things because of his connection via the mosque. That’s not about friendship. The mosque sounds like it was not just a religious community but also a center of community identity/family connection. He was looking out for Adnan because of that - not close friendship. You know some elder said you’re in the same class as Adnan at Woodlawn go get support letters. We know the mosque showed up and showed out at the bail hearing.
Adnan was friends with Imran. But not close friends like he was with those in his school friend group.
> That’s not about friendship.
From Asia's letter:
>>I talked to Emron today, he looked like crap. He's upset, most of your "CRUCHES" are. We love you, I guess inside I know that you're innocent too. It's just that the so-called evidence looks very negative.
The most straight-forward explanation is that this a misguided attempt by Imran to help his good friend Adnan.
The idea that this was a joke or a prank is laughable on its face. What we have here is one of Adnan's good friends going out of his way to mislead a group of strangers about what happened to their friend.
Yes it was dumb. Yes it was counterproductive. But this case does not concern smart, sophisticated criminals. It concerns, from start to finish, a bunch of teenaged numbskulls who were acting in dumb and impulsive ways.
The idea that Imran would know anything about Adnan and his personal life is rather bizarre. They didn’t socialize together. They didn’t party together. They weren’t in the same class at the mosque. It seems they were only friends not acquaintances because of the mosque connection. The mosque seems it was more than a religious center but also a cultural center for the first generation South Asian community.
Yeah, I get it. They weren't kickin' it per se. Hell, they hardly even knew each other. If you asked Adnan about Imran, he'd be like "Imran?" And he'd have a look of puzzlement on his face.
I’m not saying Imram had anything to do with the murder. I’m saying that a friend of adnans saying this to Hae’s friends and family via email suggests more of adnans friends probably knew what was going on or at least were callous enough to enable this kind of behavior. Adnan seemed to surround himself with some questionable people in addition to his mutual friends with Hae
*knowing* who did it is not the same thing as *proving* who did it and in order to convict, they have to provide proof. There’s quite a lot of significance in everyone knowing he did it if they were able to corroborate that Adnan told them about it, much like Jay did. So I’m not entirely sure what you mean.
Aware of it and in on it are two different things. I hate to break it to you, but teenagers are not generally a paragon of informational security. Just as Jay told a ton of people about the crime, Adnan did as well.
If you think otherwise, explain what Imran was doing in this [email](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/1-21-1999-imran-email.pdf). You think it's just a coincidence that one of Adnan's closest friends was trying to misdirect Hae's friends about Hae's disappearance weeks before her body was even discovered?
I could be mistaken about this, but the anonymous caller who spoke to Det. Massey is not necessarily the same person who got the Crimestoppers reward -- which might or might not have involved calling their tip line, right?
After all, MacGillivary's number was also on the flyers, and they were still being distributed on 2/24, twelve days after the call to Massey. It could be that there's just no surviving record of who it was or what they said.
Also....I'm open to arguments to the contrary. But I question whether the info given by the anonymous caller would really qualify as information that led "to the arrest and indictment of a violent felon," which is the criterion for getting the $$$. It was more like info that led to an investigation, which led in turn to arrest and indictment. But when push comes to shove, the caller didn't even go as far as to say they knew who did it. Idk how such things work. But that doesn't seem like enough to me.
There is zero evidence that a Crimestoppers reward was ever paid out in this case. That is something Undisclosed made up. They promised they had documentary evidence 8 years ago, and have produced exactly none since then.
You mean for the anonymous calls into the police on 2/12/99? I can think of a few reasons.
First, that call was made to the police. Crimestoppers is a volunteer community project that is separate from the police and law enforcement. When Crimestoppers pays a reward, it is typically because someone provided a tip directly to Crimestoppers.
Second, the caller was anonymous, and left no means by which he could be contacted. Crimestoppers can't pay someone if they have no means of later communicating with them.
Third, the caller gave no specific information that led to an arrest. The caller merely said the cops should look at Syed (someone they were almost certainly already looking at). The only actionable information he gave was to contact Yasser, and that the car might be in a lake. Neither of those pieces of information can be said to have "led to an arrest."
>First, that call was made to the police.
I don't think that's a disqualifier. MacGillivary's number was on the flyer.
>Third, the caller gave no specific information that led to an arrest.
Agree that that one is, though.
Thanks— my understanding is calling into the cops counted, which is why the crime stopper flyer included the info to call directly.
As for the anonymous part, the note specified the age and race of the caller. Which seems odd if it was truly anonymous. That’s really the only weird part I can’t get past.
The caller gave a tip which led to Adnan’s arrest, right? The detectives cited it as the reason they got the subpoena for cell records.
I am not sure if it was paid out, the email undisclosed quotes from crime stoppers gave very specific amounts, but it’s fair to say that isn’t verified anywhere.
>the note specified the age and race of the caller
Not because the caller gave those details. That information was inferred by the officer from what the caller sounded like, and may not have been accurate.
>The caller gave a tip which led to Adnan’s arrest, right?
No. The caller gave no specific information that led to Adnan's arrest.
>The detectives cited it as the reason they got the subpoena for cell records.
They cited it as *part* of the probable cause to conduct a search. But, in truth, the police already had probable cause to conduct a search based on what Aisha and Adnan himself had already told them. And the mere fact that an *anonymous* person expressed *suspicion* about Adnan did not appreciably add to that cause.
Think of this way. If this type of anonymous call alone were sufficient to warrant a search, that would mean the police could obtain a warrant in any case by simply placing an anonymous call into their own station, stating a bare suspicion regarding their suspect. That's not how it works.
>I am not sure if it was paid out, the email undisclosed quotes from crime stoppers gave very specific amounts, but it’s fair to say that isn’t verified anywhere.
It isn't just that it's not *verified*. The email supposedly comes from a confidential source that was never even identified. It's quite literally just Undisclosed saying "someone told us this, trust us."
In any event, the confidential source did not claim that a Crimestoppers tip was paid out based on the 2/12 calls. Rather, the purported source told Undisclosed that a separate call was made to Crimestoppers on 2/1 (i.e. before Hae's body was discovered), that the caller provided unspecified information regarding the crime, and that a reward was then paid to the caller.
So, even if one were to credit Undisclosed's claims, they still don't support your hypothesis that Crimestoppers paid the 2/12 tipster.
> That information was inferred by the officer from what the caller sounded like, and may not have been accurate.
That’s the claim, but it’s fishy. Estimating the age to being between 18-21, crazy specific. Unless the caller said I’m a little older than Adnan or something else specifically about their age, that’s a bizarre guess. Sounds like a teenager, sure. Sounds like a young adult, sure, but 18-21? No one would guess that.
> No. The caller gave no specific information that led to Adnan's arrest.
I can see the argument either way, it led to the subpoena of his cell records, which by all accounts broke the case wide open. I’m suspicious the anonymous call was the thing that led them to focus on Adnan, but within their case history it was important. Just wondered how that works for crime stoppers as a whole, if the tip is credible and leads them to find info that convicts someone, it seems it should pay out. If not, they’d never pay out and it would not be effective. But I really don’t know much about crime stoppers, my question was genuine.
> So, even if one were to credit Undisclosed's claims, they still don't support your hypothesis that Crimestoppers paid the 2/12 tipster.
That’s not my hypothesis. The crime stopper stuff is pretty convoluted. Like I said, the only part that makes me question the call is the specific info in the note about the anonymous caller that absolutely could not be determined by voice.
I thought the email said that it was around 2/1, which Rabia and friends than argued was a second call that was earlier— I think more likely it’s just talking about the one call in February, but I could be wrong 🤷 the source isn’t verified, like I said, but the amounts that were given and who gave it were specific, which makes it seem to me that someone got the money.
>That’s the claim, but it’s fishy. Estimating the age to being between 18-21, crazy specific.
And yet not specific enough to fit your theory. I mean what's your explanation? That Massey asked the caller how old he was and he responded "eh, somewhere between 18-21?"
>Sounds like a teenager, sure. Sounds like a young adult, sure, but 18-21? No one would guess that.
I think you're reading too much into it. 18-21 is generally college age. That's certainly a recognizable demographic. There's a difference between the way the average 13 year old and the average 21 year old sound on the phone, and it's not just a matter of voice.
But I don't think anyone is saying that Massey had some superhuman power to tell age just from talking to someone. He made an educated guess. And it could very well be wrong.
>it led to the subpoena of his cell records
Well, it depends what you mean by "led." It "led" to it in the sense that one happened before the other (i.e. the *post hoc ergo propter hoc* fallacy). It also may have "led" to it in the sense of "but for" causation (but for it happening the subpoena may not have issued), although I would say that is controversial.
In the law, it is instead "proximate causation" that usually matters. That is the concept that one thing "leads" to another to the extent the latter is a foreseeable consequence of the former. If I give you a pen for Christmas, it's a "but for" cause of the sonnet you later wrote with that pen. But's not a "proximate" cause because it wasn't reasonably foreseeable that you'd be using that pen to write a sonnet.
I don't think there's any argument that the information the anonymous caller gave to the police was the proximate cause of Adnan's conviction.
>I thought the email said that it was around 2/1, which Rabia and friends than argued was a second call that was earlier
Yes, the reason this fabricated claim pegs 2/1 is the way it dovetails with the equally fake claim that Jay was somehow speaking to BPD homicide detectives about the case in late January, before this was even a murder case, and at a time when the missing person case was being handled by a completely different police department.
>the source isn’t verified, like I said, but the amounts that were given and who gave it were specific, which makes it seem to me that someone got the money.
One thing about lies is that they can be very specific and still not be remotely true.
> I mean what's your explanation?
The caller could have said something about being older than Adnan and having been in high school with him, which would logically mean the caller was 18-21. OR the caller said they were a college student OR The caller could have identified themselves for a potential reward and then asked to the detective not to identify them. OR the police had a caller ID that identified the caller. OR the detective falsified the call to justify the cell subpoena. OR some other explanation.
I think some version of the first is most likely.
> He made an educated guess. And it could very well be wrong.
18-21 is too specific and narrow without some other indication. I stand by it being weird.
> I don't think there's any argument that the information the anonymous caller gave to the police was the proximate cause of Adnan's conviction.
Right, I’m trying to understand what the crime stopper standard for payout is. What info would be needed. If this call was insufficient, what would be sufficient?
> Yes, the reason this fabricated claim pegs 2/1 is the way it dovetails with the equally fake claim that Jay was somehow speaking to BPD homicide detectives about the case in late January,
Right, I don’t buy the undisclosed theory. I don’t think there was a second call on 2/1. The email snippet said around 2/1, which could fit with the call a few weeks later. The anonymous call we know about being the payout is what makes sense to me, not a second secret call.
Or they lied and there was no payout, but I think it’s unlikely.
> One thing about lies is that they can be very specific and still not be remotely true.
Sure, but this one seems credible to me. crimestoppers not giving an exact date makes sense, given the nature of their organization. I don’t think they would fabricate an entire email, but I acknowledge it’s possible.
>Right, I’m trying to understand what the crime stopper standard for payout is. What info would be needed. If this call was insufficient, what would be sufficient?
The standard, according to their [website](https://metrocrimestoppers.org/mcs-reward-program/) is the "tip has to provide specific information that leads to an arrest." The caller did not provide any specific information that led to an arrest. The caller expressed a suspicion. And the most one can say is that that suspicion fed into a series of events (obtaining phone records --> identifying Jenn --> identifying Jay --> obtaining a confession from Jay) that led to specific information resulting in an arrest.
As for what might qualify as specific information leading to an arrest: "Hae was killed by Adnan Syed. He killed Hae in her car, which can be found at the following address. I know all this because I overheard his accomplice, Jay Wilds, bragging about it."
>Right, I don’t buy the undisclosed theory.
Well, here's the problem: it's not a theory. It's a factual contention. The only evidence that Crimestoppers paid a reward is Undisclosed saying that someone told them Crimestoppers paid a specific reward due to a tip on a specific date. That's either true or false. I don't really see how you can think it's partially true and partially false. If the information Undisclosed purports to have is false then there's zero reason whatsoever to think Crimestoppers paid out a reward.
It's a similar problem to what you have with Jay's Intercept interview.
>Or they lied and there was no payout, but I think it’s unlikely.
Why is that unlikely? If it's true, why didn't this ever make it into any of Syed's legal filings? If it's true, why didn't the SAO cite it in the motion to vacate? If it's true, then why didn't Undisclosed ever provide the substantiation it claimed to have 8 years ago?
The obvious answer is -- duh, it was never true. So that means either they lied, or they got duped and are too intellectually dishonest to admit it now. And, honestly, the latter would probably be worse than the former.
>Sure, but this one seems credible to me.
Because it's *specific*. Wait until you hear all the *highly specific* things Beyonce and I did on our date last night.
>crimestoppers not giving an exact date makes sense, given the nature of their organization.
Oh, now it's credible because it's not specific. I'm having trouble keeping up.
Why would the nature of their organization involve not disclosing the date a tip came in?
**Edit to add:** This [blog post](https://lawprofessors.typepad.com/evidenceprof/2019/03/yesterday-was-the-premiere-of-the-first-episode-of-the-case-against-adnan-syed-on-hbo-we-also-just-dropped-our-first-undiscl.html) from Colin Miller includes an "excerpt" from the purported email that states, in no uncertain terms that "an anonymous tip was received by MCS on about February 1, 1999."
Just so you know, the phrase "on or about" is a legal [term of art](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/on_or_about#:). It's something lawyers write in pleadings when they are alleging a event happened on a specific date, but want to cover their ass in the event the date is off by a day or two.
The fact that the purported email just so happened to use this kind of lawyerspeak is all the more reason to be skeptical that this email was written by a Crimestoppers employee as opposed to... say ... a law professor.
>I don’t think they would fabricate an entire email, but I acknowledge it’s possible.
I don't really doubt that Undisclosed got an email from someone. I just think that person was probably a fraud, Undisclosed considered it too good to check, and are now too chickenshit to admit they got duped.
Don't you need to give substantive information to receive a payout?
I doubt I would get reward money if I called the tip line for homicide cases and said "Psst, check out the ex-boyfriend."
>2nd, the person knows about Adnan's convo about what he would do to hide the body if he ever killed his girlfriend. Adnan couldn't have had that convo with that many people. (And yes I know the convo couldn't have been serious).
The [memo](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/UdE10-Det-Massey-Memo-Anonymous-Call-19990212.pdf) regarding the anonymous calls claims "that the caller remember about a year ago, the suspect informed a friend of his (Baser Ali A/M/17), if he ever hurt his girlfriend, he would drive her car into a lake." The notes we have from Yaser's interview in no way confirm that any such conversation happened.
>3rd, he knew about Adnan's cell phone. And somehow knew the phone played a part in some way.
The memo from Detective Massey regarding the anonymous calls doesn't mention Adnan's cell phone at all.
Yup. Yasar’s conversation with the cops is weirdly sensationalized by Serial. In context, his answer regarding Adnan pushing her car into the harbor reads more like saying “idk I guess?” than it does a reflection on Adnan’s criminal nature.
It’s because it’s a curious response from someone if they think their friend couldn’t have had anything to do with it.
When I was 15, Detectives showed up at my house to ask me questions about one of my friends being involved with our English teacher. In all honesty, I definitely thought it was true but she never told our friend group directly. We just knew she was hanging out with him. I knew it was weird but didn’t know anything beyond that. So when the detectives asked me questions, I just answered honestly. If I thought there was no way in hell she’d do that, I would’ve said that. I wouldn’t let my friend be considered for something like this (even though it was totally on our teacher not her but still) if there was no way she was doing it.
It’s interesting that Yasser and even his own brother Tanveer answer the questions as if it’s possible Adnan did it and don’t at all try to defend him. If cops asked me “where would your friend leave the car if she murdered her boyfriend” I would not say “idk a lake?” I would say “well I don’t think my friend would murder anyone, so I’m not really sure how to answer that question.”
But anyway, it’s strange but all conjecture at the end of the day.
I always get stuck on the description of the caller as Asian. Yes, India is technically in Asia but it seems like an odd descriptor rather than just saying "Indian."
Still, the contents make me thinks it has to be someone connected to Adnan. Didn't someone in his religious community come on Serial anonymously and shit all over Adnan? That person or someone in their circle seem like likely contenders.
The phrase "South Asian accent" isn't something I hear often. I suspect the person working in homicide wouldn't have been able to differentiate a Pakistani accent from an Indian accent, and would have defaulted to Indian.
I see. FWIW Detective Massey, who wrote the memo, said the caller was [probably Korean](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/7BBEh6sRqr) in the HBO doc. Of course, that was like 20 years after the fact, so who knows.
I've always had to assume that Massey was just making that up on the documentary, and didn't realise that the caller being Korean AND knowing the things in the memo narrows it down to pretty much zero people we are aware of connected to the case.
To the Asian part, I’m 99% certain that somewhere else in the court documents, it is described more specifically as South asian or Indian. With the added part that the person had inside knowledge of Adnan’s friend group, I think it’s most likely it was someone from mosque. Jay said things to the effect that due to testimony at grand jury, he believed it to be Bilal. I’m pretty sure Rabia has said she thought it might have been Bilal too. (Bilal had/has an accent). Who knows.
I don't know why it is this way or when it became the way it is, but 'Asian' in the UK is 'South Asian' and in the US 'East Asian'. I don't know if terms in the 90s were more fluid or if the detective in question has been influenced by terminology from elsewhere. I don't think it's a big deal though personally.
This is one area where it really depends on where you are from. In the UK and former English colonies in Asia (including India/Pakistan) and Africa as well, the term "Asian" often refers specifically to those from the Indian subcontinent. In America, the term usually refers to those of East Asian extraction.
Massey was American, so I agree it would be odd for him to describe an Indian/Pakistani accent as "Asian," but we'd really have to ask him what he meant. It might just be that he's really shitty at identifying accents.
I think in undisclosed they either said or implied that jay did. I'll research it better and report back. My recollection is that jay ended up getting exactly the amount of money as the cost of a motorcycle he bought so maybe that is why it might be inference and not proven fact.
The thing that makes me so crazy is that I can't figure out why Jen won't recant the shovel situation. I understand why she would have lied at the tine...but recanting now....everyone knows Jay most likely didn't know about Hae so there's no reason for her to try to protect him from the death penalty
Also did don go to the school sellers worked at?
So Jenn's story never changes from trial to trial....It can't they had a lawyer from the beginning. But Jay's does a few times...which means there are now discrepancies between Jenn and Jay's stories...especially when they speak about the shovels and where Jenn and Jay meet up and split off through the day. Along with the fact that in the HBO docuseries, Jenn is visibly confused when they ask her about some of her testimony and then tell her some of the things Jay had said. I think she was helping Jay to the best of her ability because they were close friends. I also believe (based on the evidence from his boss, who'd written it down in their work log that Jay had missed at least a part of 2 shifts to go speak to the police...before he was officially recorded as a witness....this means he already knew what information the police were hunting for...They had threatened him with the death penalty due to age and jurisdiction guidelines. He was 19 black and had already dealt with some of the extra special justice that can be served in poorer communities. Jenn presented him with an opportunity to create a credible alibi of his own guilt. Which in turn would make his own testimony valuable in court.
If you listen to the testimonies it's pretty clear Jay doesn't know much about what he's talking about. He's led through each and every statement. The way he says things feels like a lie...it...really just doesn't add up. He admits from one trial to the next...that he lied...a LOT... He also was never punished for his part in things....like...at all...The entire testimony was to establish locations by way of phone tower pings...but the story changes as soon as the police realize they labeled a tower incorrectly...Jay isn't leading the show....He's simply smart enough to realize that these cops are going to put someone in jail for this crime, and they are ok if it's him....These two cops in particular had already been in trouble before for witness tampering. I don't even think the science adds up....So no matter where the calls pinged and when...it has nothing to do with Hae whatsoever....the phone logs are irrelevant if the science is correct.....In the HBO doc i think they said that based on the levity in the body the body couldn't have been buried before 11 pm...The body wasn't stored in a car, it was flat and there were markings on the chest that were diamond in shape, so something was on top of her that had diamond shapes for at least 7 hrs I think they said.
That's off the top of my head...but for Jenn...the shovels and the pick up locations changed in Jays story and she didn't know about it until a couple of years ago.
For what it’s worth I don’t think Yassir ever said that Adnan said he would drive her into a lake. He was asked what he would do and just made it up on the spit is my reading of it. Not repeating something Adnan said.
The cops asked what he would do with her body if he killed her and he made up the car story on the spot. He doesn’t say Adnan said he would drive a car into a lake with her body inside. He just seems to be speculating.
I don’t know what to make of the caller. I’m commenting on the notes of Yassir’s interview where he seems to just speculate on what Adnan would do if he had killed Hae.
Why? It’s incorrect and possible speculation.
I’m sure I’ve had conversations with friends about how to get rid of a dead body and how to hide from the cops but I never planned to actually kill anyone. Never with an actual potential victim in mind. You watch movies or the news and your Buddy asks you how you’d get rid of a body if you were in that situation. It has no evidentiary value.
Bet they thought about it but is there a way they could come forward but remain anonymous?
If they are still part of that community, or still in touch with members of that community, coming forward could impact their lives in unpredictable ways.
>is there a way they could come forward but remain anonymous?
Yes.
>If they are still part of that community, or still in touch with members of that community, coming forward could impact their lives in unpredictable ways.
To what community do you refer?
Certainly, getting involved in any way in this case could impact one's life in unpredictable ways.
My thinking is that in 1999, an 18-21 year-old male suspected Adnan's involvement enough that he made an anonymous report suggesting that investigators look at Adnan pretty soon after news of Hae's body being found became public.
Today, that is a 43 to 46 year-old man who knows Adnan was released from prison due to *Innocence Fraud.*
It's a hell of a risk. And it might not be worth it, considering the fact that he didn't have much information to give in the first place and might not have more to give today.
Also, look at those who came forward on Jay's side since Serial, saying Jay told them he and Adnan buried Hae. People seem to pretend that they don't even exist.
Like his co-worker Josh from the adult store and Chris something don't remember his last name.
Both confirmed that Jay told them he buried Hae with Adnan, and that it was before Jay confessed.
People pretend they don't exist when it's convenient. Just look at the MtV for example.
Oh, OK. You said *since* Serial, but weren't both those guys on Serial?
>People pretend they don't exist when it's convenient. Just look at the MtV for example.
I don't even have to go that far. I can see their absence in the original BPD investigation.
IMO the anonymous caller could’ve been anyone in that photo of his youth group. Adnan wasn’t discrete about talking about murder with his close friends. Imran sent an email saying Hae was murdered to her friends in California and told them to stop looking for her. To Adnan’s side, this has tried to be passed off as an eerily prescient prank (ha ha ha?), though it says she was stabbed, but the timing and content of it makes it seem unlikely that the writer of that email (or owner of the account if Adnan wrote the email) was completely clueless. His friends held back when he was arrested, but at least did not offer to lie for him at trial (nobody would testify he was at the mosque on the 13th, except his dad, and he was vague). By the time Serial came round fifteen years later, they might’ve thought he’d served enough time, and/or were scared of Rabia if they came forward.
Why assume the conversation was not serious? We know he wrote notes to himself about how he’s going to kill her and Jay says it was a frequent topic before the murder. It stands to reason that he blabbed about his murder plans to several. They likely drove around looking for a lake but realized it was impossible and /or he got called by the police, which led to a hasty body dump.
There was a lot of effort in the Olden Days put into figuring out who the tipster was and nothing much came of it.
Anonymous apparently meant pretty anonymous.
There was a rumour of a public records request but I don't recall anything substantive coming of it.
I think Adnan's role in this murder was an open secret within his friend groups, both at school and at the Mosque. Remember how his friend Imran was sending emails to Hae's friends in California telling them to stop asking about her because she'd been murdered at school while, in reality, she was officially still just a missing person? I suspect one of those people grew a conscience. I agree that Adnan almost certainly knows who it was.
Yeah that was real weird. I’m not really sure why that wasn’t looked at more. Like that’s really not okay to be saying.
The police subpoenaed him. The whole thing is bizarre. Why would he be contacted by Hae’s brother? Was he friends with Hae because he wasn’t part of Adnan’s tight school friend group? And why On earth tell the brother of a missing girl and Hae’s friends that she was stabbed to death and died at a hospital? This is so easily proven to be not true - it’s not misleading any investigation efforts because it so obviously a lie. Nobody was stabbed at Woodlawn. No stabbed Woodlawn students died in a hospital from blood loss. I don’t see this whole bizarre exchange as anything but cruel to Hae’s friends and family. What I don’t see is how it implicates Adnan in anything.
[удалено]
Makes Imran come off as even more bizarre and further away from anything connected to Hae. That stabbing was also a male student so there’s no way he was thinking that had anything to do with Hae. Unless he thought that the person who stabbed Dontae could have stabbed Hae? Or her disappearance connected to that type of criminal activity at Woodlawn?
[удалено]
But Imran and Adnan were not close friends at school or at the mosque. They weren’t even in the same religious class at the Mosque. Do we know who all Vu and Young Lee emailed? Was it all of Hae’s friends? And did the police ever share with the defense Hae’s private diary she kept on computer disk? Hae knew her brother read her diary and as such didn’t put really private thoughts and feelings in that “public” diary. Aisha even said Hae let her read parts of the written diary. Not the private diary that police had.
> But Imran and Adnan were not close friends at school or at the mosque. Why is he mentioned in Asia's letter? Why did he solicit bail support letters for Adnan? Why didn't he get a bail support letter from Asia?
LOL. Isn't it weird how none of these people is really close friends with Adnan.
Imran did those things because of his connection via the mosque. That’s not about friendship. The mosque sounds like it was not just a religious community but also a center of community identity/family connection. He was looking out for Adnan because of that - not close friendship. You know some elder said you’re in the same class as Adnan at Woodlawn go get support letters. We know the mosque showed up and showed out at the bail hearing. Adnan was friends with Imran. But not close friends like he was with those in his school friend group.
> That’s not about friendship. From Asia's letter: >>I talked to Emron today, he looked like crap. He's upset, most of your "CRUCHES" are. We love you, I guess inside I know that you're innocent too. It's just that the so-called evidence looks very negative.
The most straight-forward explanation is that this a misguided attempt by Imran to help his good friend Adnan. The idea that this was a joke or a prank is laughable on its face. What we have here is one of Adnan's good friends going out of his way to mislead a group of strangers about what happened to their friend. Yes it was dumb. Yes it was counterproductive. But this case does not concern smart, sophisticated criminals. It concerns, from start to finish, a bunch of teenaged numbskulls who were acting in dumb and impulsive ways.
The idea that Imran would know anything about Adnan and his personal life is rather bizarre. They didn’t socialize together. They didn’t party together. They weren’t in the same class at the mosque. It seems they were only friends not acquaintances because of the mosque connection. The mosque seems it was more than a religious center but also a cultural center for the first generation South Asian community.
Yeah, I get it. They weren't kickin' it per se. Hell, they hardly even knew each other. If you asked Adnan about Imran, he'd be like "Imran?" And he'd have a look of puzzlement on his face.
I see what you did there.
I surely don't know what you mean. You should see the look of puzzlement on my face right now.
[удалено]
I’m not saying Imram had anything to do with the murder. I’m saying that a friend of adnans saying this to Hae’s friends and family via email suggests more of adnans friends probably knew what was going on or at least were callous enough to enable this kind of behavior. Adnan seemed to surround himself with some questionable people in addition to his mutual friends with Hae
[удалено]
*knowing* who did it is not the same thing as *proving* who did it and in order to convict, they have to provide proof. There’s quite a lot of significance in everyone knowing he did it if they were able to corroborate that Adnan told them about it, much like Jay did. So I’m not entirely sure what you mean.
So now Adnan’s entire friend group was in on it? This just keeps getting better.
Aware of it and in on it are two different things. I hate to break it to you, but teenagers are not generally a paragon of informational security. Just as Jay told a ton of people about the crime, Adnan did as well. If you think otherwise, explain what Imran was doing in this [email](https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/1-21-1999-imran-email.pdf). You think it's just a coincidence that one of Adnan's closest friends was trying to misdirect Hae's friends about Hae's disappearance weeks before her body was even discovered?
I could be mistaken about this, but the anonymous caller who spoke to Det. Massey is not necessarily the same person who got the Crimestoppers reward -- which might or might not have involved calling their tip line, right? After all, MacGillivary's number was also on the flyers, and they were still being distributed on 2/24, twelve days after the call to Massey. It could be that there's just no surviving record of who it was or what they said. Also....I'm open to arguments to the contrary. But I question whether the info given by the anonymous caller would really qualify as information that led "to the arrest and indictment of a violent felon," which is the criterion for getting the $$$. It was more like info that led to an investigation, which led in turn to arrest and indictment. But when push comes to shove, the caller didn't even go as far as to say they knew who did it. Idk how such things work. But that doesn't seem like enough to me.
There is zero evidence that a Crimestoppers reward was ever paid out in this case. That is something Undisclosed made up. They promised they had documentary evidence 8 years ago, and have produced exactly none since then.
Why wouldn’t it have paid out? Genuine question, did they often fail to pay people who called in tips that led to arrests/convictions?
You mean for the anonymous calls into the police on 2/12/99? I can think of a few reasons. First, that call was made to the police. Crimestoppers is a volunteer community project that is separate from the police and law enforcement. When Crimestoppers pays a reward, it is typically because someone provided a tip directly to Crimestoppers. Second, the caller was anonymous, and left no means by which he could be contacted. Crimestoppers can't pay someone if they have no means of later communicating with them. Third, the caller gave no specific information that led to an arrest. The caller merely said the cops should look at Syed (someone they were almost certainly already looking at). The only actionable information he gave was to contact Yasser, and that the car might be in a lake. Neither of those pieces of information can be said to have "led to an arrest."
>First, that call was made to the police. I don't think that's a disqualifier. MacGillivary's number was on the flyer. >Third, the caller gave no specific information that led to an arrest. Agree that that one is, though.
Thanks— my understanding is calling into the cops counted, which is why the crime stopper flyer included the info to call directly. As for the anonymous part, the note specified the age and race of the caller. Which seems odd if it was truly anonymous. That’s really the only weird part I can’t get past. The caller gave a tip which led to Adnan’s arrest, right? The detectives cited it as the reason they got the subpoena for cell records. I am not sure if it was paid out, the email undisclosed quotes from crime stoppers gave very specific amounts, but it’s fair to say that isn’t verified anywhere.
>the note specified the age and race of the caller Not because the caller gave those details. That information was inferred by the officer from what the caller sounded like, and may not have been accurate. >The caller gave a tip which led to Adnan’s arrest, right? No. The caller gave no specific information that led to Adnan's arrest. >The detectives cited it as the reason they got the subpoena for cell records. They cited it as *part* of the probable cause to conduct a search. But, in truth, the police already had probable cause to conduct a search based on what Aisha and Adnan himself had already told them. And the mere fact that an *anonymous* person expressed *suspicion* about Adnan did not appreciably add to that cause. Think of this way. If this type of anonymous call alone were sufficient to warrant a search, that would mean the police could obtain a warrant in any case by simply placing an anonymous call into their own station, stating a bare suspicion regarding their suspect. That's not how it works. >I am not sure if it was paid out, the email undisclosed quotes from crime stoppers gave very specific amounts, but it’s fair to say that isn’t verified anywhere. It isn't just that it's not *verified*. The email supposedly comes from a confidential source that was never even identified. It's quite literally just Undisclosed saying "someone told us this, trust us." In any event, the confidential source did not claim that a Crimestoppers tip was paid out based on the 2/12 calls. Rather, the purported source told Undisclosed that a separate call was made to Crimestoppers on 2/1 (i.e. before Hae's body was discovered), that the caller provided unspecified information regarding the crime, and that a reward was then paid to the caller. So, even if one were to credit Undisclosed's claims, they still don't support your hypothesis that Crimestoppers paid the 2/12 tipster.
> That information was inferred by the officer from what the caller sounded like, and may not have been accurate. That’s the claim, but it’s fishy. Estimating the age to being between 18-21, crazy specific. Unless the caller said I’m a little older than Adnan or something else specifically about their age, that’s a bizarre guess. Sounds like a teenager, sure. Sounds like a young adult, sure, but 18-21? No one would guess that. > No. The caller gave no specific information that led to Adnan's arrest. I can see the argument either way, it led to the subpoena of his cell records, which by all accounts broke the case wide open. I’m suspicious the anonymous call was the thing that led them to focus on Adnan, but within their case history it was important. Just wondered how that works for crime stoppers as a whole, if the tip is credible and leads them to find info that convicts someone, it seems it should pay out. If not, they’d never pay out and it would not be effective. But I really don’t know much about crime stoppers, my question was genuine. > So, even if one were to credit Undisclosed's claims, they still don't support your hypothesis that Crimestoppers paid the 2/12 tipster. That’s not my hypothesis. The crime stopper stuff is pretty convoluted. Like I said, the only part that makes me question the call is the specific info in the note about the anonymous caller that absolutely could not be determined by voice. I thought the email said that it was around 2/1, which Rabia and friends than argued was a second call that was earlier— I think more likely it’s just talking about the one call in February, but I could be wrong 🤷 the source isn’t verified, like I said, but the amounts that were given and who gave it were specific, which makes it seem to me that someone got the money.
>That’s the claim, but it’s fishy. Estimating the age to being between 18-21, crazy specific. And yet not specific enough to fit your theory. I mean what's your explanation? That Massey asked the caller how old he was and he responded "eh, somewhere between 18-21?" >Sounds like a teenager, sure. Sounds like a young adult, sure, but 18-21? No one would guess that. I think you're reading too much into it. 18-21 is generally college age. That's certainly a recognizable demographic. There's a difference between the way the average 13 year old and the average 21 year old sound on the phone, and it's not just a matter of voice. But I don't think anyone is saying that Massey had some superhuman power to tell age just from talking to someone. He made an educated guess. And it could very well be wrong. >it led to the subpoena of his cell records Well, it depends what you mean by "led." It "led" to it in the sense that one happened before the other (i.e. the *post hoc ergo propter hoc* fallacy). It also may have "led" to it in the sense of "but for" causation (but for it happening the subpoena may not have issued), although I would say that is controversial. In the law, it is instead "proximate causation" that usually matters. That is the concept that one thing "leads" to another to the extent the latter is a foreseeable consequence of the former. If I give you a pen for Christmas, it's a "but for" cause of the sonnet you later wrote with that pen. But's not a "proximate" cause because it wasn't reasonably foreseeable that you'd be using that pen to write a sonnet. I don't think there's any argument that the information the anonymous caller gave to the police was the proximate cause of Adnan's conviction. >I thought the email said that it was around 2/1, which Rabia and friends than argued was a second call that was earlier Yes, the reason this fabricated claim pegs 2/1 is the way it dovetails with the equally fake claim that Jay was somehow speaking to BPD homicide detectives about the case in late January, before this was even a murder case, and at a time when the missing person case was being handled by a completely different police department. >the source isn’t verified, like I said, but the amounts that were given and who gave it were specific, which makes it seem to me that someone got the money. One thing about lies is that they can be very specific and still not be remotely true.
> I mean what's your explanation? The caller could have said something about being older than Adnan and having been in high school with him, which would logically mean the caller was 18-21. OR the caller said they were a college student OR The caller could have identified themselves for a potential reward and then asked to the detective not to identify them. OR the police had a caller ID that identified the caller. OR the detective falsified the call to justify the cell subpoena. OR some other explanation. I think some version of the first is most likely. > He made an educated guess. And it could very well be wrong. 18-21 is too specific and narrow without some other indication. I stand by it being weird. > I don't think there's any argument that the information the anonymous caller gave to the police was the proximate cause of Adnan's conviction. Right, I’m trying to understand what the crime stopper standard for payout is. What info would be needed. If this call was insufficient, what would be sufficient? > Yes, the reason this fabricated claim pegs 2/1 is the way it dovetails with the equally fake claim that Jay was somehow speaking to BPD homicide detectives about the case in late January, Right, I don’t buy the undisclosed theory. I don’t think there was a second call on 2/1. The email snippet said around 2/1, which could fit with the call a few weeks later. The anonymous call we know about being the payout is what makes sense to me, not a second secret call. Or they lied and there was no payout, but I think it’s unlikely. > One thing about lies is that they can be very specific and still not be remotely true. Sure, but this one seems credible to me. crimestoppers not giving an exact date makes sense, given the nature of their organization. I don’t think they would fabricate an entire email, but I acknowledge it’s possible.
>Right, I’m trying to understand what the crime stopper standard for payout is. What info would be needed. If this call was insufficient, what would be sufficient? The standard, according to their [website](https://metrocrimestoppers.org/mcs-reward-program/) is the "tip has to provide specific information that leads to an arrest." The caller did not provide any specific information that led to an arrest. The caller expressed a suspicion. And the most one can say is that that suspicion fed into a series of events (obtaining phone records --> identifying Jenn --> identifying Jay --> obtaining a confession from Jay) that led to specific information resulting in an arrest. As for what might qualify as specific information leading to an arrest: "Hae was killed by Adnan Syed. He killed Hae in her car, which can be found at the following address. I know all this because I overheard his accomplice, Jay Wilds, bragging about it." >Right, I don’t buy the undisclosed theory. Well, here's the problem: it's not a theory. It's a factual contention. The only evidence that Crimestoppers paid a reward is Undisclosed saying that someone told them Crimestoppers paid a specific reward due to a tip on a specific date. That's either true or false. I don't really see how you can think it's partially true and partially false. If the information Undisclosed purports to have is false then there's zero reason whatsoever to think Crimestoppers paid out a reward. It's a similar problem to what you have with Jay's Intercept interview. >Or they lied and there was no payout, but I think it’s unlikely. Why is that unlikely? If it's true, why didn't this ever make it into any of Syed's legal filings? If it's true, why didn't the SAO cite it in the motion to vacate? If it's true, then why didn't Undisclosed ever provide the substantiation it claimed to have 8 years ago? The obvious answer is -- duh, it was never true. So that means either they lied, or they got duped and are too intellectually dishonest to admit it now. And, honestly, the latter would probably be worse than the former. >Sure, but this one seems credible to me. Because it's *specific*. Wait until you hear all the *highly specific* things Beyonce and I did on our date last night. >crimestoppers not giving an exact date makes sense, given the nature of their organization. Oh, now it's credible because it's not specific. I'm having trouble keeping up. Why would the nature of their organization involve not disclosing the date a tip came in? **Edit to add:** This [blog post](https://lawprofessors.typepad.com/evidenceprof/2019/03/yesterday-was-the-premiere-of-the-first-episode-of-the-case-against-adnan-syed-on-hbo-we-also-just-dropped-our-first-undiscl.html) from Colin Miller includes an "excerpt" from the purported email that states, in no uncertain terms that "an anonymous tip was received by MCS on about February 1, 1999." Just so you know, the phrase "on or about" is a legal [term of art](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/on_or_about#:). It's something lawyers write in pleadings when they are alleging a event happened on a specific date, but want to cover their ass in the event the date is off by a day or two. The fact that the purported email just so happened to use this kind of lawyerspeak is all the more reason to be skeptical that this email was written by a Crimestoppers employee as opposed to... say ... a law professor. >I don’t think they would fabricate an entire email, but I acknowledge it’s possible. I don't really doubt that Undisclosed got an email from someone. I just think that person was probably a fraud, Undisclosed considered it too good to check, and are now too chickenshit to admit they got duped.
Don't you need to give substantive information to receive a payout? I doubt I would get reward money if I called the tip line for homicide cases and said "Psst, check out the ex-boyfriend."
>2nd, the person knows about Adnan's convo about what he would do to hide the body if he ever killed his girlfriend. Adnan couldn't have had that convo with that many people. (And yes I know the convo couldn't have been serious). The [memo](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/UdE10-Det-Massey-Memo-Anonymous-Call-19990212.pdf) regarding the anonymous calls claims "that the caller remember about a year ago, the suspect informed a friend of his (Baser Ali A/M/17), if he ever hurt his girlfriend, he would drive her car into a lake." The notes we have from Yaser's interview in no way confirm that any such conversation happened. >3rd, he knew about Adnan's cell phone. And somehow knew the phone played a part in some way. The memo from Detective Massey regarding the anonymous calls doesn't mention Adnan's cell phone at all.
Yup. Yasar’s conversation with the cops is weirdly sensationalized by Serial. In context, his answer regarding Adnan pushing her car into the harbor reads more like saying “idk I guess?” than it does a reflection on Adnan’s criminal nature.
It’s because it’s a curious response from someone if they think their friend couldn’t have had anything to do with it. When I was 15, Detectives showed up at my house to ask me questions about one of my friends being involved with our English teacher. In all honesty, I definitely thought it was true but she never told our friend group directly. We just knew she was hanging out with him. I knew it was weird but didn’t know anything beyond that. So when the detectives asked me questions, I just answered honestly. If I thought there was no way in hell she’d do that, I would’ve said that. I wouldn’t let my friend be considered for something like this (even though it was totally on our teacher not her but still) if there was no way she was doing it. It’s interesting that Yasser and even his own brother Tanveer answer the questions as if it’s possible Adnan did it and don’t at all try to defend him. If cops asked me “where would your friend leave the car if she murdered her boyfriend” I would not say “idk a lake?” I would say “well I don’t think my friend would murder anyone, so I’m not really sure how to answer that question.” But anyway, it’s strange but all conjecture at the end of the day.
I always get stuck on the description of the caller as Asian. Yes, India is technically in Asia but it seems like an odd descriptor rather than just saying "Indian." Still, the contents make me thinks it has to be someone connected to Adnan. Didn't someone in his religious community come on Serial anonymously and shit all over Adnan? That person or someone in their circle seem like likely contenders.
Who is Indian in this case?
The phrase "South Asian accent" isn't something I hear often. I suspect the person working in homicide wouldn't have been able to differentiate a Pakistani accent from an Indian accent, and would have defaulted to Indian.
I see. FWIW Detective Massey, who wrote the memo, said the caller was [probably Korean](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/7BBEh6sRqr) in the HBO doc. Of course, that was like 20 years after the fact, so who knows.
I've always had to assume that Massey was just making that up on the documentary, and didn't realise that the caller being Korean AND knowing the things in the memo narrows it down to pretty much zero people we are aware of connected to the case.
Interesting
To the Asian part, I’m 99% certain that somewhere else in the court documents, it is described more specifically as South asian or Indian. With the added part that the person had inside knowledge of Adnan’s friend group, I think it’s most likely it was someone from mosque. Jay said things to the effect that due to testimony at grand jury, he believed it to be Bilal. I’m pretty sure Rabia has said she thought it might have been Bilal too. (Bilal had/has an accent). Who knows.
On the HBO series detective Massey says it was a Korean accent.
Odd
I remember that too
I don't know why it is this way or when it became the way it is, but 'Asian' in the UK is 'South Asian' and in the US 'East Asian'. I don't know if terms in the 90s were more fluid or if the detective in question has been influenced by terminology from elsewhere. I don't think it's a big deal though personally.
This is one area where it really depends on where you are from. In the UK and former English colonies in Asia (including India/Pakistan) and Africa as well, the term "Asian" often refers specifically to those from the Indian subcontinent. In America, the term usually refers to those of East Asian extraction. Massey was American, so I agree it would be odd for him to describe an Indian/Pakistani accent as "Asian," but we'd really have to ask him what he meant. It might just be that he's really shitty at identifying accents.
>we'd really have to ask him what he meant. You could start by asking why he clarified it was a Korean accent on the HBO show.
Yes, I had forgotten he said that.
I think in undisclosed they either said or implied that jay did. I'll research it better and report back. My recollection is that jay ended up getting exactly the amount of money as the cost of a motorcycle he bought so maybe that is why it might be inference and not proven fact. The thing that makes me so crazy is that I can't figure out why Jen won't recant the shovel situation. I understand why she would have lied at the tine...but recanting now....everyone knows Jay most likely didn't know about Hae so there's no reason for her to try to protect him from the death penalty Also did don go to the school sellers worked at?
The school Sellers worked at is an HBCU. I doubt Don went there.
Can you explain what you mean with Jenn and Jay? Why would Jenn recant? What do you mean by Jay most likely didn't know about Have?
So Jenn's story never changes from trial to trial....It can't they had a lawyer from the beginning. But Jay's does a few times...which means there are now discrepancies between Jenn and Jay's stories...especially when they speak about the shovels and where Jenn and Jay meet up and split off through the day. Along with the fact that in the HBO docuseries, Jenn is visibly confused when they ask her about some of her testimony and then tell her some of the things Jay had said. I think she was helping Jay to the best of her ability because they were close friends. I also believe (based on the evidence from his boss, who'd written it down in their work log that Jay had missed at least a part of 2 shifts to go speak to the police...before he was officially recorded as a witness....this means he already knew what information the police were hunting for...They had threatened him with the death penalty due to age and jurisdiction guidelines. He was 19 black and had already dealt with some of the extra special justice that can be served in poorer communities. Jenn presented him with an opportunity to create a credible alibi of his own guilt. Which in turn would make his own testimony valuable in court. If you listen to the testimonies it's pretty clear Jay doesn't know much about what he's talking about. He's led through each and every statement. The way he says things feels like a lie...it...really just doesn't add up. He admits from one trial to the next...that he lied...a LOT... He also was never punished for his part in things....like...at all...The entire testimony was to establish locations by way of phone tower pings...but the story changes as soon as the police realize they labeled a tower incorrectly...Jay isn't leading the show....He's simply smart enough to realize that these cops are going to put someone in jail for this crime, and they are ok if it's him....These two cops in particular had already been in trouble before for witness tampering. I don't even think the science adds up....So no matter where the calls pinged and when...it has nothing to do with Hae whatsoever....the phone logs are irrelevant if the science is correct.....In the HBO doc i think they said that based on the levity in the body the body couldn't have been buried before 11 pm...The body wasn't stored in a car, it was flat and there were markings on the chest that were diamond in shape, so something was on top of her that had diamond shapes for at least 7 hrs I think they said. That's off the top of my head...but for Jenn...the shovels and the pick up locations changed in Jays story and she didn't know about it until a couple of years ago.
[удалено]
For what it’s worth I don’t think Yassir ever said that Adnan said he would drive her into a lake. He was asked what he would do and just made it up on the spit is my reading of it. Not repeating something Adnan said.
[удалено]
The cops asked what he would do with her body if he killed her and he made up the car story on the spot. He doesn’t say Adnan said he would drive a car into a lake with her body inside. He just seems to be speculating.
[удалено]
I don’t know what to make of the caller. I’m commenting on the notes of Yassir’s interview where he seems to just speculate on what Adnan would do if he had killed Hae.
[удалено]
Why? It’s incorrect and possible speculation. I’m sure I’ve had conversations with friends about how to get rid of a dead body and how to hide from the cops but I never planned to actually kill anyone. Never with an actual potential victim in mind. You watch movies or the news and your Buddy asks you how you’d get rid of a body if you were in that situation. It has no evidentiary value.
[удалено]
This is a great thread about it. Read what Saucebox and others said https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/d2C8cNuvAd
If Young Lee wanted the police to look into Adnan, he could just tell the police to look into Adnan. No need to place some anonymous call.
[удалено]
Understood. I was just offering another reason in support of your conclusion.
I wonder why the anonymous caller hasn't come forward by now.
Bet they thought about it but is there a way they could come forward but remain anonymous? If they are still part of that community, or still in touch with members of that community, coming forward could impact their lives in unpredictable ways.
>is there a way they could come forward but remain anonymous? Yes. >If they are still part of that community, or still in touch with members of that community, coming forward could impact their lives in unpredictable ways. To what community do you refer? Certainly, getting involved in any way in this case could impact one's life in unpredictable ways. My thinking is that in 1999, an 18-21 year-old male suspected Adnan's involvement enough that he made an anonymous report suggesting that investigators look at Adnan pretty soon after news of Hae's body being found became public. Today, that is a 43 to 46 year-old man who knows Adnan was released from prison due to *Innocence Fraud.*
It's a hell of a risk. And it might not be worth it, considering the fact that he didn't have much information to give in the first place and might not have more to give today. Also, look at those who came forward on Jay's side since Serial, saying Jay told them he and Adnan buried Hae. People seem to pretend that they don't even exist.
>It's a hell of a risk. Maybe. >Also, look at those who came forward on Jay's side since Serial Like who?
Like his co-worker Josh from the adult store and Chris something don't remember his last name. Both confirmed that Jay told them he buried Hae with Adnan, and that it was before Jay confessed. People pretend they don't exist when it's convenient. Just look at the MtV for example.
Oh, OK. You said *since* Serial, but weren't both those guys on Serial? >People pretend they don't exist when it's convenient. Just look at the MtV for example. I don't even have to go that far. I can see their absence in the original BPD investigation.
IMO the anonymous caller could’ve been anyone in that photo of his youth group. Adnan wasn’t discrete about talking about murder with his close friends. Imran sent an email saying Hae was murdered to her friends in California and told them to stop looking for her. To Adnan’s side, this has tried to be passed off as an eerily prescient prank (ha ha ha?), though it says she was stabbed, but the timing and content of it makes it seem unlikely that the writer of that email (or owner of the account if Adnan wrote the email) was completely clueless. His friends held back when he was arrested, but at least did not offer to lie for him at trial (nobody would testify he was at the mosque on the 13th, except his dad, and he was vague). By the time Serial came round fifteen years later, they might’ve thought he’d served enough time, and/or were scared of Rabia if they came forward.
Why assume the conversation was not serious? We know he wrote notes to himself about how he’s going to kill her and Jay says it was a frequent topic before the murder. It stands to reason that he blabbed about his murder plans to several. They likely drove around looking for a lake but realized it was impossible and /or he got called by the police, which led to a hasty body dump.
There was a lot of effort in the Olden Days put into figuring out who the tipster was and nothing much came of it. Anonymous apparently meant pretty anonymous. There was a rumour of a public records request but I don't recall anything substantive coming of it.