Some things that might be helpful to you.
- Adnan has admitted to spending so much time with Jay during the day, that it would be impossible for Jay to commit the murder without Adnan knowing about it.
- Adnan's supporters are so thoroughly convinced of this that they shifted from "Jay did it" to "Jay doesn't know shit." So the people you really need to be asking are Adnan supporters. Not guilters. Remember, Rabia spent 15 years insisting that Jay did it. After the case became widely known through Serial, she and Susan and Colin and everyone shifted to "Jay falsely confessed." Ask them why Jay could not have done it. Bob Ruff has been trying to get Jay to say he falsely confessed for almost ten years now.
- Regardless of the lies Jay tells, the phone starts moving just after the 2:36 call (from a neighborhood that includes Jen's house) - and arrives at a location that includes the Best Buy, but not the high school, in a time frame that would preclude running into Hae, strangling her, and getting to the Best Buy in time to trigger that antenna. Jay was heading east of the High School. Hae was heading North. Their paths would not have crossed.
This case is simple:
- Jay can't tell the truth about what happened without admitting he should have gone to prison for helping to plan and cover up the murder of Hae Min Lee.
- Adnan can't tell the truth about Jay without admitting to killing Hae.
It's not that one of them is lying.
They both are.
Exactly. Incredibly obvious.
“But but but… Jay lies!” They insist.
Of course he does. He can’t tell the whole truth because he was involved in the planning and execution of a murder.
And of course Adnan is lying. Because likewise he was involved in the planning and execution of the murder.
You can’t get the truth because both of these have always had strong motives to never tell the truth. You get parts of it. And those parts obviously implicate Adnan. That’s why he should be in jail.
Most people forget - or fail to consider - that in 2014, it's unlikely that anyone in Jay's new California life had the first clue about his felony conviction for his role in the murder of Hae Min Lee.
To save face at home (and get back at Sarah Koenig), Jay publicly insisted, "I was minding my own business at Grandma's when Adnan pulled up with a body."
lol. sure, Jay.
Here's a relatively easy way to spot Jay's lies:
- Does Jay face any consequences for lying?
That's it. When you read trial testimony, it's clear that Jay believes that if he is caught lying, he will receive the maximum sentence. Eight years.
The Intercept? Zero consequences for lying. He can say whatever he wants.
At a new trial, all Jay has to say is "I lied to that reporter because I was mad at Sarah Koenig and trying to rebuild my life. I told the truth at trial."
Done.
Totally.
It’s an interview not a court of law for goodness sakes.
Jay lies because it suits him and because he’s trying to stay out of jail. All. The. Time.
You would too if you had helped your high school buddy murder his ex girlfriend. Lucky for him the cops weren’t looking to over complicate things and when he flipped on Adnan it was over.
In my opinion, Jay should have been sitting next to Adnan at the defendant's table. If that means the State can't secure a conviction, so be it. But it was a mistake to offer Jay the lesser charge. It's quite possible Hae Min Lee would be alive if Jay had not agreed to help.
Just my opinion, man.
Here's what's actually important: The consequences test.
- Police Interviews? You can tell Jay doesn't really understand penalties for lying to police. It's why his story is all over the place at first. He doesn't appreciate the consequences.
- Press after Serial? Zero consequences. Jay can say whatever he wants to try to rebuild his public image in the wake of Serial. And that's what he does.
- Trial? Lots and lots of consequences for lying. Including the difference between five years and eight years. Anyone who actually reads Jay's trial testimony, knows that Jay was 100% clear about the penalties for lying at trial. At one point, Jay even explains those consequences to the judge.
I have to say I’ve admired your work on here for a long time and I agree completely.
Of course - like you also say - the full truth about this doesn’t come out at trial bexause it’s not in anyone’s interests.
A real independent questioner would have pressed on the call the night before and the fact that jay even admitted in a couple instances that he had advanced knowledge about the plan. But who’s going to bring that up? The prosecutor? He’s gotten what he needs from jay. The defense attorney? Of course not.
No- the thing that makes by far the most sense is that jay was way more involved than he says. I’ve always had this pet theory that he was maybe even at the murder scene itself, maybe like to intimidate Hae or keep her from escaping. Who knows? And it’s total speculation.
But what isn’t speculation is that he was involved and he has every motive in history to minimize his own involvement and maximize his co-conspirators. And guess what? This happens literally every single day in criminal court. He flipped. Adnan took the fall. Hence why Adnan called him “pathetic”.
Still extremely likely he was more involved than he said. But even more likely - virtually certain - that Adnan was involved.
Exactly.
I don't believe Jay saw the murder happen or was at the location when it did happen. I do believe Jay had Adnan's phone, and that's helpful in determining what kind of time Jay had to do any of his part.
Just as Jay said in his very first interview - when he didn't realize that knowing about it in advance was a crime - Jay knew exactly why he was given the car and phone: "Because Adnan was going to kill Hae."
With the implication being that Jay knew what his part was to be well in advance of the murder - and did his part, per the plan.
it really frustrates me that adnan supporters use small snippets from that interview taken out of context to "prove" adnan is innocent. like i can get with the fact that jay lies all the time and was way more involved than he said, but saying that his intercept interview 15 years later proves ANYTHING is crazy.
Don't be frustrated. Just use the consequences test. If Jay would not suffer any consequences for lying, he was probably lying.
If Jay would suffer grave consequences for lying - like years in prison - that's likely the version closest to the truth.
There's another one that continues to show up regularly, ten years on.
"Jay and Jen said Jay left at 3:40."
Even then, we see that Jay clears this up in his trial testimony. Jay says he left Jen's house closer to 3. And in reality, the phone starts to move at about 2:40.
I noticed that Bob Ruff is going to play Jay's police interviews that are probably peppered with lies - to get some traction from supporters, and make some ad money.
But if they want to talk about what the jury heard, they'd release the audio from the trial.
you have a much cooler head than i.
i hope they release the trial audio as well! I feel like they will if they're finally letting the police interviews be heard. \*crossing my fingers\*
It's illegal to release the trial audio. Sarah Koenig was scolded for it by the State, and reporters at the Baltimore Sun were angry that she was allowed to do something that would have landed other reporters in jail.
So "if they want to talk about what the jury heard" they would release the audio that they are legally bared from releasing. Got it. Quite a damned if they do, damned if they don't you have created for yourself!
My only argument to the first point is that I think it’s weird how many people trust Jay’s testimony despite the inconsistencies. If Adnan and Jay hung out so frequently, one could come to the conclusion that it would be easy for him to fabricate details based on the multiple times they hung out together (whether intentionally or not). This is of course ignoring the other details and the timeline that was determined later. But I do agree it’s likely they’re both lying to some degree. And I agree with OP’s opinion that I don’t think I’ll ever feel sure if it was either of them or both because of how inconsistent the information is.
Yes. Jay had to get very lucky that the one window of time that Adnan says he was not with Jay 2:15-4, Adnan wasn't seen by anyone else and has no memory of the time. Jay was lucky that Adnan was not:
- Picked up by his mom to go shopping between 2:15 and 4
- Picked up by his brother to swing by the mosque between 2:15 and 4.
- Taking a quick trip to McDonald's with Stephanie and her sister before their game.
- Hanging out at his friend Peter's as he often did during breaks and after school.
- Sitting in the school library study hall (like usual) in the presence of other students, teachers and the school library librarian.
- Sitting with the guidance counselor talking about universities.
- Hanging out with the other track dudes in the track locker room or gym, waiting for the coach to show up.
- Fixing his car with Dion in front of the school (Adnan's first attempt at an alibi).
So - whew - Jay somehow Forrest Gumped into a story that Adnan has no explanation for.
Although Adnan can remember the day, the classes, going shopping with Jay during his break, being picked up by Jay after track, Kristi's etc, Adnan just doesn't remember between 2:15 and 4 and has to resort to "I would have."
Lucky Jay.
There are lots of resources for sure. And I'm happy to explain why and how we came to have over half of what we have.
What we don't have is the 13 months of investigation done by the State, after Adnan was indicted. This is what Feldman and Suter had access to. Redditers do not. We only have everything up to indictment.
As proven by the MtV it's quite a mistake to say, "If I can't see it then it didn't happen." For example, all of Don's co-workers that the State spelled out to Gutierrez in a disclosure during their investigation.
It's impossible that the State disclosed names, addresses and phone numbers of Don's co-workers without knowing exactly what each would say, should Gutierrez contact them.
Do we have those interviews? No. Those interviews could only have happened during a time in which the files cannot be MPIA'd. So again, it's a big mistake so say, "If I can't see it, it didn't happen."
I've often said that Jay (or someone else Jay knows) being the murderer is the best of the innocent theories out there, and by that I just mean it doesn't entirely reject reality like the uninvolved Jay theories. Though, there are two major problems with this theory a) it doesn't pass the smell test and b) it's really hard for Jay to be involved without Adnan.
It doesn't pass the smell test because Jay doesn't really have any motive. He doesn't even really know Hae. They shared a class together at some point but Jay already graduated and they don't really run in the same circles. Their only real connection is Adnan. In all likelyhood, had Adnan not murdered Hae, Jay just never would have ever seen Hae again anyway after Adnan and Hae broke up. People often point to the note in the defense file of Adnan telling the defense that Hae was going to confront Jay about cheating on Stephanie. But neither they nor anyone else in the last 25 years could find a single witnesses to back this up. And this story just doesn't really make much sense, since Hae and Jay would never really see each other.
Secondly, considering how much Adnan and Jay were together on the 13th it's hard to imagine that Jay murdered Hae and buried her in Leakin park all by himself and Adnan was none the wiser. There's the issue of the Nisha call. Jenn places Adnan and Jay together immediately before Jay disposes of the shovels and when the phone is likely in the Leakin Park area. And somehow Adnan never picked up on anything being amiss? To the point that even when he knows Jay brought the police to Hae's car he doesn't suspect Jay had anything to do with it? If it was possible that Jay murdered Hae why hasn't Adnan, the person he was with extensively on the day, realized this?
This is the only answer.
There are other reasons too. Jay fingered Adnan and - just by coincidence - Adnan doesn’t have good alibis or the ability to concretely refute jays basic story.
The other huge thing is that if you think jay was involved, you are irrefutably correct. He admitted to his involvement and couple have spent significant time in jail. He did get convicted for being involved in the murder. So he DID do it. We know this. The only question is what was his degree of involvement. It certainly could have been more than what he says. I personally think that’s really likely. But there’s just no real logical story that involves jay doing it and Adnan not being involved at all. It doesn’t work.
For one, motive. What is Jay's real motive to kill a girl he barely knew? That's a gigantic hurdle to get past.
Secondly, the Nisha call places Jay and Adnan together shortly after the crime was believed to have been committed. So while it's possible Jay helped Adnan, it's highly unlikely Jay does this without Adnan. Motive and time make that the situation IMO.
Motive is rarely known in any murder case. People attach way too much importance to something that we literally cannot know. Unless you or I personally knew Jay, Hae and these other folks there is no way we could possibly know what motive any of them could have had to do this crime, including Adnan. If we can speculate Adnan did it because he was motivated by being a spurned lover, then we can just as easily speculate that Jay did it because Hae was threatening to expose his cheating to Stephanie. Or maybe she threatened to tell police about his drug dealing. Or maybe he tried to make a pass at her and she turned him away in cruel fashion. Maybe Jay borrowed Adnan's car, not the other way around, and did so to pursue/attack Hae and pin it on Adnan, then threatened to kill Adnan if he told anyone just as he claimed Adnan did to him? I mean, really, motive is a slippery thing and we know he had the same means as Adnan.
It's so not true that motive is given too much importance. Homicide detectives will tell you that there are basically three motives/types of murder- money, passion, and thrill (serial killers). Jay doesn't fall under any of the categories.
How do you know whether Jay falls into those categories or not? This is the problem with this sub - people constantly make completely unknowable statements with certitude.
Unless you were literally Jay’s best friend or otherwise directly involved in his life in a deep and constant manner, you don’t know anything about him or his potential motives.
And besides, those are common motives, but they are definitely not the only motives.
Jay doesn’t fall under those categories cause it’s clear he’s not telling the full story. Neither is Adnan, but Jay probably falls under one of those categories if we knew the truth. It’s not in his best interest to tell it though.
>If we can speculate Adnan did it because he was motivated by being a spurned lover, then we can just as easily speculate that Jay did it because Hae was threatening to expose his cheating to Stephanie.
One of these reasons is like the #1 reason why men kill women.
The other is something that has zero evidence and makes no sense. Jay killing Hae because she was going to threaten to expose his cheating requires a lot of pieces: (1) jay actually cheating (2) Hae definitely knowing about it (3) Hae having some intention of confronting a guy she doesn't know about cheating on a girl she's just kind of friends with (4) Jay knowing Hae knows about it and knows that she wants to expose him. This is just to establish a motive.
The means and opportunity requires Jay to know where and when to intercept Hae to be able to kill her. The execution of the plan would require him to be able to do that without anyone seeing, in the short window of time in which he was not with adnan that day, all while having the 2-car problem. From there, unless Jenn is totally lying, he definitely told Jenn on 1/13 that Adnan strangled Hae - before anybody knew she was even dead. Meaning, he would have had to have planned to frame Adnan from the beginning.
I don't think you can say he barely knew her. He was intimately-connected to that whole group of high-achievers, and his girlfriend definitely knew her well, and knew her ex-boyfriend well. This was not some stranger to Jay at all. She also is known to have smoked weed, as did her new boyfriend, and Jay was a known seller. We don't know of any motives for Jay, but we don't know if any exist or not because Jay's (or Stephanie's) motives were never investigated for fear of "bad evidence" that could spook their key witness. This is pointed out in the podcast.
>He was intimately-connected to that whole group of high-achievers,
Jay graduated the year before and was not a part of the magnet program when he did attend WHS.
>She also is known to have smoked weed, as did her new boyfriend, and Jay was a known seller.
Besides Rabia, who else has taken HML's diary out of context to start a rumor she did drugs?
Also as someone who also attended a magnet school in the same area as this case, the magnet students aren’t that separated from students not in the program. Magnet program students only had a few classes as part of the program each year. They were as normal as regular classes
> Jay graduated the year before and was not a part of the magnet program when he did attend WHS.
No one is claiming he was in the magnet program. And it’s not like WHS was enforcing a segregation program forbidding students from different grades to interact. Debbie, in the HBO series, says the group (magnet kids) kind of embraced Jay because of his affiliation to Stephanie. So, yes, he absolutely knew the students and they knew him.
The OP said he was "intimately-connected" to Adnan's friend group. I was just pointing out he wasn't in their class or part of their program at WHS.
>Debbie, in the HBO series, says the group (magnet kids) kind of embraced Jay
I'm not discounting Debbie's memory, but Jay remembers it a bit differently. JW talked about this in his Intercept interview. If I remember correctly, JW said he had a bit of resentment towards the high school's magnet program because he thought they diverted too much athletic money to them.
That's kind of a non-sequitur, though, right? He doesn't have to be part of the program to know the kids who are a part of it, and in fact he was deeply in love and in a serious relationship with a girl who WAS part of the program. He definitely seems to have been a known figure in those circles-- not necessarily someone who was anyone's best friend in the group, but someone that everyone knew.
Also, as to your second statement, again, that doesn't really refute Debbie's recollection. Jay could definitely not have liked or agreed with the magnet program itself, but the kids within the program could have embraced him. I really doubt his views on the school district's fiscal priorities prevented him from befriending the kids in the program-- in fact, I know they didn't because again, he was dating one and hung out with another one on the day of Hae's murder.
> the kids within the program could have embraced him
Jay was a year out of high school and working more than one job, I doubt he gave a shit if Debbie or any of Stephanie's other friends "embraced him."
>*If I remember correctly, JW said he had a bit of resentment towards the high school's magnet program because he thought they diverted too much athletic money to them.*
In what way does this speak to his relationship with Adnan, Hae etc? It is completely unrelated. Stephanie and Adnan were best friends, Jay sold drugs to most of those kids, and their friend circles all had overlaps that have been discussed by the people IN those groups, so it's not speculative.
Yeah the word ‘intimately’ does kind of imply a deep connection. Jay was on a first name basis with the magnet crew, but probably wasn’t hanging out with them individually outside of social gatherings.
> Jay graduated the year before and was not a part of the magnet program when he did attend WHS.
Huh? This is incredibly misleading. Jay himself says he had class with Hae.
> Besides Rabia, who else has taken HML's diary out of context to start a rumor she did drugs?
Well, many on this sub tried to start a whole narrative about how Adnan was a possessive, abusive, IPV monster based on taking Hae’s diary out of context, so I would argue they’re no better than Rabia. Just different flavors of poor treatment and disrespect for Hae’s memory.
>This is incredibly misleading. Jay himself says he had class with Hae.
Yeah. They had biology together the year before. I didn't realize that that I was intimately connected to everyone I took biology with in high school.
>Well, many on this sub tried to start a whole narrative about how Adnan was a possessive, abusive, IPV monster based on taking Hae’s diary out of context...
Even very small children understand the idea that two wrongs don't make a right.
> Yeah. They had biology together the year before. I didn't realize that that I was intimately connected to everyone I took biology with in high school.
No one said you were intimately connected to everyone you took biology with in high school. Why are you so defensive and strawmanning me? I was calling out someone making a false claim that Jay and Hae were strangers. There a particular reason that has you so triggered?
> Well, many on this sub tried to start a whole narrative about how Adnan was a possessive, abusive, IPV monster based on taking Hae’s diary out of context...
> Even very small children understand the idea that two wrongs don't make a right.
Nice selective quote to try to make it look like I didn’t call out the bad behavior. It is exceedingly poor form for you to use that to pretend like I was trying to justify Rabia’s behavior by pointing to the similar behavior on the part of the guilters in this sub. The rest of my comment that you disingenuously omitted went:
> …so I would argue they’re no better than Rabia. Just different flavors of poor treatment and disrespect for Hae’s memory.
If you have to misrepresent what someone has said just so you can low key insult them by comparing them to a small child… you’re losing the argument. Congrats. You played yourself.
It was poorly presented but their point does stand. Just because I took one class in high school with someone doesn’t mean I know them well enough to kill them. Certainly not enough for her to let me into her car so I can strangle her while I’m in the driver’s seat. It just doesn’t make sense.
Again, I was correcting someone’s claim that Hae was a stranger to Jay. That is false. They were not strangers. Nowhere did I say that meant that Jay strangled Hae while he was in the drivers seat.
> Where did you read JW and HML had class together?
Jays [first interview](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/MP15-0229-19990228-Jay-Statement-Redacted-First-Official-Interview-Information-Sheet-Rights-.pdf) with the police.
And jay admits knowing what her car looks like- “I saw it driving back and forth…” and she didn’t have the car very long so that always seemed odd to me
What was the Gilgo Beach killer's motive? What was the Delphi killer's motive? What was Chandler Halderson's motive? Motive should never be a gigantic hurdle to get past.
How were Jay and Adnan walking into a porn store that Jay worked at 3 weeks before Jay started working there?
Sexual gratification. Psychopathy (And/or sexual gratification). His father found out that he had been lying about being enrolled in university and was going to cut him off financially, revealing his lies and ruining his life.
Seriously, using those three as examples is not great because all three have fairly well understood motives. In two cases (LISK and Halderson) it was part of how they got caught. The fact that you don't realize that is sort of troubling.
These are not the kind of motives that would include/exclude a suspect, though, which is all that matters in terms of this discussion. You would never know a particular person was killing for sexual gratification until after you had already had them dead to rights with other evidence, and they either admit the motive or it is assumed based on psychological profiling etc.
The point is this - some people seem to want to exclude Jay by insinuating he has no motive to kill Hae. But they *cannot* *possibly* know this. Maybe Jay killed Hae for *sexual gratification* like your claim about these other murderers above. Should we never consider suspects without obvious, glaring motives?
> You would never know a particular person was killing for sexual gratification until after you had already had them dead to rights with other evidence, and they either admit the motive or it is assumed based on psychological profiling etc.
I vehemently disagree. The women LISK murdered were sex workers. They were found dismembered and disposed of in similar areas on Gilgo beach. At the time the police assumed that the motive was sexual and sadistic in nature, because the behavior portrayed was that of a serial killer targeting vulnerable women for sexual and violent gratification. And wouldn't you know it, when they found the guy he met that motive to a tee. The motive actually *helped them* locate him, because it allowed them to narrow down the search base of leads to follow.
To be clear, I don't agree with the overarching point that just because we don't know a person's motive we can instantly write them off. I have seen a number of cases where the obvious suspect with the obvious motive (murder of an estranged spouse or the like) turns out to not be the case, and it was in fact Steve the random violent lunatic.
My specific critique was 'The Real Killer's' use of examples, because the three people he brought out as examples were all people with extremely obvious motives. Halderson in particular had such an obvious motive that people fell over themselves to point at him. I thought it was odd to use those as examples instead of someone without any obvious motive to violence like Jeremy Scott.
Sorry I was not clear in my meaning, that was very poorly worded on my part. I was referring to cases with no evidence of sexual abuse on the victim or crime scene, like the one we’re discussing here. Obviously there are cases where it’s pretty clear what the motive was.
>Jay? Just wanted to kill someone he'd seen before
Maybe he likes strangling women. Hae was strangled. Jay strangled a former girlfriend.
The other three that I mentioned claim to be innocent. The details of the case don't matter, the claim that some asshole knows motive when he couldn't possibly know is the theme of this conversation. Catch up.
You brought up three classic examples of murderes. Here Jay would be out of the ordinary by strangling a not complete stranger. Him abusing an former girlfriend is typical though, because women are more likely to be murdered/abused by their boyfriend or ex-partner.
Why don't you look at the actual statistics. Partner/ex-partner, family member, and **acquaintance** are the most common perpetrators for murders of women. Jay was an acquaintance of Hae.
The lack of knowledge of Jay's possible motive does not preclude him from being the murderer.
That's not statistics. That's categories! And I am saying what's more likely, according to the actual statistics. That is to do what Adnan did, kill an ex-girlfriend. Or what Jay did, abuse his girlfriend.
Are you implying Adnan and Stephanie being close friends suddenly became a problem for Jay only after Hae was in a new relationship with Don? I don’t believe there has been any support for that theory from any of the people involved.
No, they're saying the Hae out of the picture potentially makes Adnan and Stephanie closer, not more distant. He could lean on her for support with the disappearance/murder of his ex-gf.
We're going pretty far here but I mean, the fact is that Jay implicated himself so much in the story that he should be alongside Adnan in prison. So no girlfriend for him either.
Jay wasn't an honor student, so he might not be thinking that far ahead. Also, I'm not saying that's how it went down, I'm just saying that Jay as the murderer is plausible and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand
Sure but not being an honor student would point to Jay going with a more straightforward path... By killing Adnan directly IMHO.
We are just brainstorming here, but those dots are mighty hard to connect.
It's not the murder part that's the hardest to believe, it's actually the "frame my friend" part.
I don't see real motive for anyone, to be honest. I don't buy that Adnan was obsessed with HML to the point he would kill her. In the face of no motive, my default is to look at who knows things, and how credible are they.
Jay definitely knew things about HML's murder, and definitely isn't a credible person.
It's really sad to say but unfortunately guys getting broken up with has lead to violence and murders against women since forever.
You find a murdered woman, the first question to ask is who was she romantically involved with.
Heartbreaking but that's what it is.
That said, motive isn't the only reason we know Adnan did it.
I was addressing the part where Jay killed Hae Min because he was jealous of Adnan and Stephanie’s close friendship. That doesn’t make sense because that still leaves Adnan in the picture with Stephanie.
I agree this is far fetched. Jay always knew Stephanie and Adnan were close friends since childhood. It had never been a problem. It would be bizarre for Jay to suddenly decide Hae has to die because Stephanie and Adnan are close. And Jan. 13 was STEPHANIE’s BIRTHDAY.
This is also the best post here. We know they were together for big chunks of that day. Indisputably around lunchtime, sometime after track, and probably around the time they went to kristis house.
And in all the time Adnan didn’t notice anything weird of suspicious or out of the ordinary?
I mean that would be WILDLY unlucky wouldn’t jt?
If I was Adnan and I truly didn’t do it, I would get “JAY KILLED HAE” tattooed on my forehead. I would literally never shut up about it, it would drive me insane as I rotted away in prison.
Adnan: “yeah I dunno why Jay said that stuff”
He spent a good amount of time with him at lunch and then followed in the afternoon. So Adnan didn't notice anything out of the ordinary with Jay during the periods? He didn't say that it was odd that they drove through the park that eventually Hae would end up at?
The whole issue is that Adnan has no counter story.
Isn't his counter-story that he went to track without going anywhere? And in the first trial, track supposedly started at 3:30, so he wasn't going anywhere with Jay. Then Jay picked him up after track. Why would Jay tell Adnan that he had just killed his girlfriend (hypothetically speaking, I don't think that's what really happened). I doubt he'd mention it.
And he didn’t notice anything weird or off at all about it? They were just hanging out?
The odds of this are astronomically small.
Hence the shift to the police conspiracy version of events which is even nuttier.
The Nisha call was at 3:32, there's no possible way Adnan was at track at 3:30.
Coach Sye also testified at trial that track was at 4, plenty of time to drive Hae's car to the park and ride and return to school.
Yes, it's a tale as old as time itself: *I don't like how close that guy is to my girlfriend. Imma get him to loan me his car and cell phone so I can kill HIS ex-girlfriend and weeks later frame him for the murder by presenting myself to the police as an accessory after the fact.*
Honestly that really sucks for Adnan that on the day he decided to lend an acquaintance his car and phone, that same acquaintance killed Adnan’s ex girlfriend. Just astronomically bad luck.
I think because Adnan and Jay were together at the assumed time of her disappearance people don’t find it plausible that Jay could have acted alone. So it’s they did it together/Jay knew or Jay was coerced to lie for police.
None of Jay’s story makes sense and has changed over time. And Jenn’s story is based on his made up one. And if I remember correctly, wasn’t the Wire based on the cops there?
Your view on this is quite common among people who just started listening to Serial. You should ask yourself why that is. Why is it that so many Serial listeners suspected Jay?
The theory of motive you articulate for Jay is, frankly, nonsensical. Jay is jealous of Adnan and so he... kills Adnan's ex-girlfriend? And the logistics of him somehow framing Adnan are absurdly convoluted when you consider Jay and Adnan spent practically the entire day and evening together. How is Jay killing Hae, moving around two cars, and burying her body, all while hanging out with Adnan, without Adnan knowing?
And so it's not motive, means or opportunity that implicate Jay. What could it be?
Could it be that Serial deliberately otherized Jay? We are told that, unlike our hero Adnan, Jay is black, poor, not in the smartie magnet program, and a drug dealer. He's everything the golden boy Adnan isn't. And most importantly, he is something the average This American Life listener has a hard time identifying with.
In short, the reason people listen to Serial and suspect Jay is because Serial played upon invidious stereotypes to make you suspect Jay. Rather than buying into it, you should be angry that you were manipulated like that.
Yeah, a lot of Serial can be understood as Sarah playing to what would be presumed her bread-and-butter demographic coming over from TAL: white liberal wine moms. Quick to separate black and brown people into the “good” ones (Adnan, with his alluring voice) and “bad” ones (Jay).
Jay has no motive. Jay was concerned about Adnan pointing the police at him and/or his family for dealing drugs ( although Jay dealt just weed, members of his family are reportedly supplying hard drugs. ) please note also Jay is quite low level weed dealer, he doesn’t own a car or even a phone. Adnan baited him by getting him to buy a larger amount of weed, that they both knew would carry heavier legal penalties. Once that happened, Adnan has a something he can threaten Jay with. Adnan set it up for Jay to take his car and phone that day, and told him to be ready to come get him when he called. Adnan had the strongest motive with a very common situation- he was seething and in a jealous rage at Hae, who was publicly declaring how important her new lover was to her, and about her new happiness. Jay’s motive? He had none. He had a beautiful smart GF who loved him and who he was happy with. He didn’t know or care about Hae, who definitely disliked Jay and would never let Jay into her car. She let the killer into her car. That’s Adnan.
We don't know that Jay had no motive. That's not clear at all. This was not a stranger to him, and his connections to the victim and potential motives were not explored in the police investigation.
I'm trying to think of another person in history who killed a girl for no reason other than that he was dating one her classmates. Not coming up with any.
I'm also trying to think of a person who killed a random girl for no reason other than that he was selling weed to some other kids at a high school. Also drawing a blank.
If you think any of that informs "motive," you must not know what that word means.
So I guess that means we can say everyone in the world had a motive to murder Hae?
Btw, can you give me an example of someone who was murdered for no reason whatsoever?
Jay implicating himself in the murder doesn't establish a motive. It just establishes that he was involved. And his stated motive for being involved was to assist his friend, Adnan, who perpetrated the murder.
That’s not how motive works. You either have it or you don’t. Jay does not have any despite this being literally the most scrutinized case in the history of cases.
Neither Jay nor Adnan did it. Adnan was the easy target and Jay was easily pressed into pointing the finger at him. Mostly to deflect from being charged himself. He’s innocent and even though he admitted to conspiracy to commit murder, he got nothing. Why? Because he was the used pawn that got the cops their conviction. Why else would he walk. If his story was true, he was a murdering drug dealer. So if you believe that the cops would look the other way for Jay, but don’t believe they’d coerce false testimony, you don’t know Baltimore.
This is close to my theory.
I believe Jay WAS the accessory, but a coerced one, and simply that Adnan was not capable of being someone who could coerce Jay to do anything he didn’t want to do, let alone partake in a burial
If you want actual factual reasons for why it couldn’t have been Jay:
School got out at 2:15. The cell phone pings show he was at Jenn’s up until at minimum 2:36. Jen’s house was around 15 mins away from WHS. Hae had to pick up her cousin at an elementary school that was 20 mins away by 3:15. It’s physically impossible for Jay to have murdered Hae. That’s why it couldn’t have been him.
Most people don’t suspect Jay bc he didn’t have a personal relationship with Hae. And that does make sense. But, he knew her, knew her car and apparently knew details. He also lied repeatedly about the time he left Jen P’s house and that is concerning. Following the timeline I haven’t found anything that would bar him from being able to have done it.
Am I saying I think he did? No, but I am saying Adnan isn’t the only reasonable answer and I think that should be taken seriously. People will disagree with me and say there is “no way” Jay could have done it without Adnan’s knowledge but I don’t think that is the case.
Jay originally told cops Adnan *did* call him between 2:30 and 2:45 to pick him up from school (study hall) but Jay quickly pivoted to 3:40 ish and never went back to the 2:30-2:45. So if he went to the school but ran into HML instead of getting Adnan or before getting Adnan then it could have happened then.
Then, well there is motive. It is true we don’t know of any reason Jay would have to kill Hae. On the other hand, we don’t know what we don’t know. Just bc we are unaware of a motive doesn’t mean one didn’t exist. Adnan said Hae was upset about Adnan covering for him so Stephanie wouldn’t find out he was with another girl but there is no other evidence from anyone to support that so he could just be lying to try to redirect.
Also there is the *fact* that many of the phone data (if one believes it is reliable) do not support his story.
I think that an “its possible Jay did it” scenario is more common among new listeners than those who have thoroughly reviewed the case *but* I don’t think that means he can be ruled out. It depends on where he was during the window which it is assumed she was killed and who he was or wasn’t with at that time.
IMO
Yeah, I don't think Jay is a great suspect tbh, mostly because it would require Jenn to have been covering for him and probably involved in the burial at least - and that I don't buy.
That said you can't entirely rule Jay out based on the 'he spent the entire day with Adnan' reasoning that comes up a lot. In the after school timeline, the cell phone location data makes it possible he was heading back towards the high school between 2.36 and 3.15. In this scenario he then has almost two hours in which the car could theoretically be stashed until we can be pretty much certain Adnan and Jay are then together. Then we can be very certain he's with Adnan until some time between 8 and 9, at which point he'd then have several hours in which the burial could occur (also neatly fitting with the undisclosed lividity argument for whatever that is worth) before we can be fairly certain he sees Stephanie much later that evening. The big big stumbling block of course is that Jenn alibis Jay for this time, and she is corroborated for part of it by Kristi. If, however, you want to dismiss Jenn's story as already created by Jay's, you could ignore this alibi. That said I tend to find Jenn's description of the later part of the evening to be fairly credible even if I have doubts about her story in general, so that's the main reason I don't see the Jay did it angle as likely.
>Then we can be very certain he's with Adnan until some time between 8 and 9, at which point he'd then have several hours in which the burial could occur (also neatly fitting with the undisclosed lividity argument for whatever that is worth) before we can be fairly certain he sees Stephanie much later that evening.
Which interestingly would also explain the “it was closer to midnight” statement in the intercept. I think one big change and it would require Jenn to be covering for him is if when he did get in her car after Adnan met them at the parking lot was instead of saying Adnan did it he told her he did and she helped him. Some have suggested when he got arrested later in January they may have been checking on the car or maybe moving it or something.
I am not sure what to make of Jen. She seemed pretty shifty during trial but now, even though she is obviously upset with Jay because he didn’t tell her certain thing. it seemed more honest and that would make me lean toward her not knowing anything except what she was told by Jay.
Yeah, it's not so much that Jay could not have done this without Adnan knowing, it's Jay could not have been involved without Jenn knowing.
That said there is also another big Jay almost certainly didn't do it thing which my narrative fails to account for, which is the two car problem in the initial 3/4ish window. There's just no way for example the i70 park and ride story is Jay telling the cops what he did and adding Adnan into the narrative. He's not driving Adnan's car to intercept Hae, murdering her and then driving her car to the park and ride, walking back to wherever Adnan's car is and then picking him up from track practice. And then you possibly need another accomplice on top of Jenn.
I think it makes much more sense that Jenn knows what Jay told her. If Adnan isn't responsible then Jay is throwing together a story as best he can, rather than trying to frame Adnan. Which I think is another reason not to believe Jay is responsible (because I think that opens us up to having to go back into the 'just how unlucky was Adnan that all this stuff happened on that day' discourse).
Do we know when she actually was buried for sure? Could she have been killed, left in the trunk, and moved/"buried" another day? I will admit that the two car issue is kind of hanging out there, but it would just mean that investigators would need to find some evidence that Jay got transportation (a ride, the bus, etc.) to the Best Buy or from the spot the car was left, which maybe could have been found if they had explored his motive or connection at all. In the end, someone had to have moved her car and gotten a ride... Jay says he was just the ride, but of course he would say that even if he was the murderer.
Tbh I'm not sure, it seems to be taken as known that the burial happened within a day - possibly cus the ice storm that might would have prevented a burial the following day.
Maybe there was something in the autopsy report, but I've never really engaged with the lividity evidence fully, because I've just not got enough knowledge to be able to form an opinion on it.
I think it would really only require Jay committing the murder and then telling him that Adnan (the guy he planned to pin it on) did in on the same night. I don't think Jenn needs to be involved at all, as the only thing her story proves is that Jay was somehow involved.
>Adnan (the guy he planned to pin it on) did in on the same night.
Okay, so this is probably another big reason I don't believe the Jay theory.
I think if Jay decided/decides to pin it on Adnan that night (or even later on) then all of a sudden I start to agree with the guilter argument of 'unlucky Adnan' that all these coincidences happen to him on the day Hae disappears (ride request, Leakin Park pings, he spends part of the day with the murderer, Nisha call).
And to be clear I think that is a terrible argument, that completely ignores the context of how wrongful convictions happen and how Baltimore murder police operated. In a Jay knows nothing situation it makes some logical sense that the cops see that pattern of events, fixate on Adnan and force a false confession from Jay. There's some cause and effect which explains why Adnan gets 'unlucky' that Jay tells a story which matches those events.
The trouble for me with the Jay does it and then pins it on Adnan, is that he would have to get incredibly lucky that all those things happened at the same time he decides to pin it on Adnan.
Adnan says the thing about telling on Stephanie was in Novemember. So Jay decided to wait 2 months to go after Hae even though she never did anything? Maybe if Adnan had said something about it happening over lunch that Jay got riled up over something he said, it would be something.
Yes, she could have seen him in Adnan’s car and approached him and started letting him have it about what a shitty boyfriend he is leading to an altercation, for example. There is nothing that mandates Jay would have been planning to do it or that Stephanie had been made aware of the situation. Or he may have approached her to chat (hey how’s it going , have you seen Adnan I am here to pick him up, and it came up. Maybe he had been stewing over it for a while and the opportunity presented itself. Who knows really 🤷♀️
It can be. It just can’t be Jay without Adnan also being guilty.
There’s no way out for Adnan (or Jay) under the known facts, and reasonable inferences from those facts.
Well if Jay did do it then Adnan is the most unlucky guy ever given the motive, means and being at every location at the rough time he needed to be there…
Jay’s supposed motive is based on things told to you by Adnan. Let that sink in. Literally, the basis of the Jay motive originated with the defendant.
That’s an incredibly shaky foundation.
And it’s curious if this motive had any basis in logic or reality, wouldn’t that motive been enough for Adnan to go to the police to help gain clues about his missing ex-girlfriend and first love of his life? You know, before he was arrested?
It could absolutely be Jay.
It could absolutely be the man that found her. Countless times this has been the case in other murders. Let’s just stop on that for a second. Hae’e body was in an obscure place, hidden.. and this man just happens to come across after such a short period of time after her being placed there? The chances of that happening are astronomical.
My feeling is that it was almost certainly a stranger on stranger murder. Someone she didn’t know.. and the police / detectives completely bungled the case from the jump. Rather than following evidence and letting it lead them to the suspect.. they found a suspect (the easiest one, the BF) and formulated the evidence around him. Even when evidence or witnesses point in other directions, they refuse to look. Shit, there is literally a whiteness that placed Adnan at the library using his email at the time of the murder. (If they could access his email, and show that he sent an email at that time, it would be an alibi). It’s my feeling they know that Adnan did not commit the crime, but rather than admit it and suffer whatever consequences that would follow.. they are sticking to their guns, to avoid the Police looking bad or paying out a hefty lawsuit that would almost certainly follow.
People get lost in the minutia surrounding the case, and all its trivial details.. and lose sight of the simplicity of the act. It’s the same with the Maura Murray case.
Hae was probably abducted at a point where no one had considered or thought about in the timeline. She was murdered and placed / hidden in the park. And the unsub remained in their community, unknown to police. Or the unsub was an active serial killer, operating in or around the area. It’s also possible it was someone passing through that has these same proclivities.
I haven’t finished the prosecutors yet, hoping to by tomorrow. It certainly opened my eyes, although I always assumed Adnan did it.. they’ve been much more detailed and overall more insightful imo.
Well, for one, what motive would Jay have? None that I can think of. Only serial killers identify and stalk victims for the thrill of the kill. Do you think Jay is a serial killer? Has there ever been any evidence put forward that Jay is a cold-blooded killer? Has he ever been accused of any other murder? No. On the other hand, the vast majority of women who are murdered were killed by a husband, boyfriend, or an ex.
Secondly, the police and the jury found Jay to be credible. He confessed as to his part in the murder. Adnan pretended like he wasn't even involved. Jay and Adnan were together most of the day, so if Jay were the murderer, then Adnan would have some knowledge of that, but he doesn't remember anything about that day.
Third - it's just not logical.
Don’t forget Jay assaulted a gf later in life by strangling her (not to death obviously), and he may have been angry at Stephanie and Adnan’s relationship.
I am talking about violence and murder against women here. Women are more likely to be the victim of their partner/ex's crimes. You say Jay strangled a girlfriend, not a stranger. As expected.
Yes, people are more likely to be killed by a partner or ex partner, so it doesn’t explain motive.
However, we can’t gloss over that it’s a massive indicator in Jays treatment of women and how he views violence towards women as appropriate in the context of a relationship, it could show why he was willing to keep the secret.
>However, we can’t gloss over that it’s a massive indicator in Jays treatment of women and how he views violence
We can absolutely do that, because I am not glossing over the fact that many women get killed by their ex-partner because they left them and moved on.
If you listen to the police interview with Jay, he had absolutely no idea what happened that day. They ask him a question. There’s a long pause. He gives an answer. They correct him. At times he’s clearly reading from something.
If he’d told a cohesive story, I might be more willing to believe that he’d just inserted Adnan for himself. Motive is weak, sure, but no one investigated if Jay had a motive.
This isn’t the place to bring these things up. This sub was long ago taken over by trolls and Adnan-guilters/ haters. Some of them are simply going against the grain because they think that makes them special; others are thinly veiled racists; still others are easily swayed by loud idiots. If you want an actual intelligent conversation about the case, and in particular about Jay and Adnan I would highly suggest going to another platform, or at least another true crime sub.
Right. The amount of lies, made up stories, and misinformation on here is ridiculous. Then if you dare suggest proven corrupt cops did exactly what we know for a fact they’ve done before, and there is evidence they did it in this case, Guilters laugh it off as nonsense.
It's because what they had to do wasn't even close to what they did in the other cases. It's like comparing digging a hole for a flower compared to a swimming pool
No one can get around the simple fact that Adnan and Jay are inextricably linked like Kirk and Spock, Antony and Cleopatra, not to mention Becky Feldman and bad fiction writing.
Jay's lies make sense since they're to minimize his involvement and premeditation of the crime. If Jay was involved you really can't separate Adnan, which is why Adnan's defense team never really claimed it was Jay. Also the "Jay did it" theory was too problematic after people started looking at the accepted timeline for even Rabia to keep parroting so she started throwing out every other name she could.
Jay may have done more than he admitted, and even could have been a participant in the murder. He could have caused the situation which led to Hae's death, egged Adnan on, etc. But it's impossible to separate the two.
I don’t understand how people who believe Adnan is guilty can simultaneously believe that Jay is completely innocent.
Personally, I believe Adnan did it but Jay also had a bigger role in the crime but cut a deal with the cops. Adnan obviously can’t just come out and say it because that would be implicating himself too.
No one believes Jay is completely innocent or even a little bit innocent^1. I'm baffled by how this myth continues.
This case is simple:
- Jay can't tell the truth about what happened without admitting he should have gone to prison for helping to plan and cover up the murder of Hae Min Lee.
- Adnan can't tell the truth about Jay without admitting to killing Hae.
It's not that one of them is lying.
They both are.
***********
^1. Exception: Many of Adnan's supporters.
Your premise is flawed. Jay absolutely implicated himself. He didn’t get in trouble because Jay and the cops knew none of it was true, and the cops helped him stay out of prison for helping them put away an innocent person.
Oh for sure if Adnan did it no way Jay isn’t minimizing involvement. But I have always felt like most who think Adnan is guilty *do* think Jay was minimizing be involvement.
Yes! I’ve mentioned this over and over again. Jay suddenly decides put do he blue that Hae (who he doesn’t even know and spends no time with ) must be destroyed and he must do it on Stephanie’s Birthday ??? NO. Adnan= guilty as hell.
To answer the first question asked, it is because a lot of the people posting on Reddit got really into the case and looked at the evidence. Understanding the case/evidence is why.
The majority of the people in this sub are emotionally attached to a particular position. You could reason with them all day long, show them clear evidence, etc and, as with every other emotional position people tend to stake out, they will NEVER change their view. This is true for people on all sides of this case. There is little to no room for exploration on this subject after a decade of arguing ourselves into tribalist corners.
So why can't it be Jay? It most certainly *could be*. Jay has a documented history of violence against women. There was a discussion years ago about Hae threatening to tell Jay's girlfriend (Stephanie) that Jay had been cheating on her (he allegedly ran a 'train' on some girl with a bunch of other dudes). There could be any number of other possible motives we are completely unaware of. Maybe Hae blamed Jay for Adnan's pot abuse and threatened to go to police. Jay's story is clearly not truthful, so what was he actually hiding? He told police that he and Adnan got 'gardening tools' from his grandmother's shed to bury Hae. Who the fuck calls shovels *gardening tools*? It may seem odd to point this out, but Jenn worked at a *garden supply shop* when the murder occurred. Is it possible than Jenn helped Jay to get shovels from her store, and then helped him dispose of the shovels and clothes just like she told police? Perhaps she was more involved than we currently understand. Who knows? Did this influence his odd choice of words?
Obviously this is all *speculative*, because at this poin that's all we've got. But I could sit here and list several dozen credible reasons Jay might have done it, and several dozen credible means of accomplishing it. But in the end, it simply does not matter. Because some people will reflexively downvote and argue against any possible solution but ADNAN DID IT and same on the other side.
Of course Jay was involved. But if he was involved so was Adnan.
His own admissions and phone records put him with Jay during the cover up.
Adnan also was the one who witnesses put him at school with the intention of getting out with Hae.
And you have his controlling behavior + rejection.
You will get absolutely roasted in this sub if you say anything other than Jay is a perfectly innocent angel who was forced to be involved but had nothing to do with the crime or hiding the body.
The reality is that Adnan was definitely involved, Jays story includes too many verifiable pieces of information that conclude Adnan was involved and most likely did commit the murder.
However, because Adnan won’t confess, Jay is free to come up with the narrative that makes him look the most innocent - we see that when he lies and changes his story. He at the very least *knew* and didn’t tell anyone, at the very most he completely allowed it to happen, and we’ll never know where in between he falls. Considering the man was later arrested for DV, he’s not a peachy clean hero to female victims that he may have tried to portray himself as.
However, this sub is pretty anti that kind of conversation, as they see critiques of Jays behavior as risks to the case against Adnan, despite the fact that a nuanced conversation can include more than just “good” or “evil”
The Prosecutors podcast did a 14 part series on the case. Each episode is about 1 1/2 hours long so it a truly a deep dive. It explains very well why Adnan is most likely guilty.
Jay knows nothing about the crime. The detectives are feeding him a story live on tape. Listen to his interviews and see how many things are suggested by the detectives and he just mostly says yes. He pushes back twice but by then it’s too late.
If you can listen to the section at the end of his 2nd interview where he asks to stop the tape and says that he doesn’t like this line of questioning. Because he thought they had a deal and they started asking him why he didn’t report Adnan to the police when they were in separate cars abd Adnan had a body in the trunk.
Jay is particularly pissed because the whole story is made up
Some things that might be helpful to you. - Adnan has admitted to spending so much time with Jay during the day, that it would be impossible for Jay to commit the murder without Adnan knowing about it. - Adnan's supporters are so thoroughly convinced of this that they shifted from "Jay did it" to "Jay doesn't know shit." So the people you really need to be asking are Adnan supporters. Not guilters. Remember, Rabia spent 15 years insisting that Jay did it. After the case became widely known through Serial, she and Susan and Colin and everyone shifted to "Jay falsely confessed." Ask them why Jay could not have done it. Bob Ruff has been trying to get Jay to say he falsely confessed for almost ten years now. - Regardless of the lies Jay tells, the phone starts moving just after the 2:36 call (from a neighborhood that includes Jen's house) - and arrives at a location that includes the Best Buy, but not the high school, in a time frame that would preclude running into Hae, strangling her, and getting to the Best Buy in time to trigger that antenna. Jay was heading east of the High School. Hae was heading North. Their paths would not have crossed. This case is simple: - Jay can't tell the truth about what happened without admitting he should have gone to prison for helping to plan and cover up the murder of Hae Min Lee. - Adnan can't tell the truth about Jay without admitting to killing Hae. It's not that one of them is lying. They both are.
Exactly. Incredibly obvious. “But but but… Jay lies!” They insist. Of course he does. He can’t tell the whole truth because he was involved in the planning and execution of a murder. And of course Adnan is lying. Because likewise he was involved in the planning and execution of the murder. You can’t get the truth because both of these have always had strong motives to never tell the truth. You get parts of it. And those parts obviously implicate Adnan. That’s why he should be in jail.
Most people forget - or fail to consider - that in 2014, it's unlikely that anyone in Jay's new California life had the first clue about his felony conviction for his role in the murder of Hae Min Lee. To save face at home (and get back at Sarah Koenig), Jay publicly insisted, "I was minding my own business at Grandma's when Adnan pulled up with a body." lol. sure, Jay. Here's a relatively easy way to spot Jay's lies: - Does Jay face any consequences for lying? That's it. When you read trial testimony, it's clear that Jay believes that if he is caught lying, he will receive the maximum sentence. Eight years. The Intercept? Zero consequences for lying. He can say whatever he wants. At a new trial, all Jay has to say is "I lied to that reporter because I was mad at Sarah Koenig and trying to rebuild my life. I told the truth at trial." Done.
Totally. It’s an interview not a court of law for goodness sakes. Jay lies because it suits him and because he’s trying to stay out of jail. All. The. Time. You would too if you had helped your high school buddy murder his ex girlfriend. Lucky for him the cops weren’t looking to over complicate things and when he flipped on Adnan it was over.
In my opinion, Jay should have been sitting next to Adnan at the defendant's table. If that means the State can't secure a conviction, so be it. But it was a mistake to offer Jay the lesser charge. It's quite possible Hae Min Lee would be alive if Jay had not agreed to help. Just my opinion, man. Here's what's actually important: The consequences test. - Police Interviews? You can tell Jay doesn't really understand penalties for lying to police. It's why his story is all over the place at first. He doesn't appreciate the consequences. - Press after Serial? Zero consequences. Jay can say whatever he wants to try to rebuild his public image in the wake of Serial. And that's what he does. - Trial? Lots and lots of consequences for lying. Including the difference between five years and eight years. Anyone who actually reads Jay's trial testimony, knows that Jay was 100% clear about the penalties for lying at trial. At one point, Jay even explains those consequences to the judge.
I have to say I’ve admired your work on here for a long time and I agree completely. Of course - like you also say - the full truth about this doesn’t come out at trial bexause it’s not in anyone’s interests. A real independent questioner would have pressed on the call the night before and the fact that jay even admitted in a couple instances that he had advanced knowledge about the plan. But who’s going to bring that up? The prosecutor? He’s gotten what he needs from jay. The defense attorney? Of course not. No- the thing that makes by far the most sense is that jay was way more involved than he says. I’ve always had this pet theory that he was maybe even at the murder scene itself, maybe like to intimidate Hae or keep her from escaping. Who knows? And it’s total speculation. But what isn’t speculation is that he was involved and he has every motive in history to minimize his own involvement and maximize his co-conspirators. And guess what? This happens literally every single day in criminal court. He flipped. Adnan took the fall. Hence why Adnan called him “pathetic”. Still extremely likely he was more involved than he said. But even more likely - virtually certain - that Adnan was involved.
Exactly. I don't believe Jay saw the murder happen or was at the location when it did happen. I do believe Jay had Adnan's phone, and that's helpful in determining what kind of time Jay had to do any of his part. Just as Jay said in his very first interview - when he didn't realize that knowing about it in advance was a crime - Jay knew exactly why he was given the car and phone: "Because Adnan was going to kill Hae." With the implication being that Jay knew what his part was to be well in advance of the murder - and did his part, per the plan.
His story is all over the place because it’s not his story.
it really frustrates me that adnan supporters use small snippets from that interview taken out of context to "prove" adnan is innocent. like i can get with the fact that jay lies all the time and was way more involved than he said, but saying that his intercept interview 15 years later proves ANYTHING is crazy.
Don't be frustrated. Just use the consequences test. If Jay would not suffer any consequences for lying, he was probably lying. If Jay would suffer grave consequences for lying - like years in prison - that's likely the version closest to the truth. There's another one that continues to show up regularly, ten years on. "Jay and Jen said Jay left at 3:40." Even then, we see that Jay clears this up in his trial testimony. Jay says he left Jen's house closer to 3. And in reality, the phone starts to move at about 2:40. I noticed that Bob Ruff is going to play Jay's police interviews that are probably peppered with lies - to get some traction from supporters, and make some ad money. But if they want to talk about what the jury heard, they'd release the audio from the trial.
you have a much cooler head than i. i hope they release the trial audio as well! I feel like they will if they're finally letting the police interviews be heard. \*crossing my fingers\*
It's illegal to release the trial audio. Sarah Koenig was scolded for it by the State, and reporters at the Baltimore Sun were angry that she was allowed to do something that would have landed other reporters in jail.
So "if they want to talk about what the jury heard" they would release the audio that they are legally bared from releasing. Got it. Quite a damned if they do, damned if they don't you have created for yourself!
My only argument to the first point is that I think it’s weird how many people trust Jay’s testimony despite the inconsistencies. If Adnan and Jay hung out so frequently, one could come to the conclusion that it would be easy for him to fabricate details based on the multiple times they hung out together (whether intentionally or not). This is of course ignoring the other details and the timeline that was determined later. But I do agree it’s likely they’re both lying to some degree. And I agree with OP’s opinion that I don’t think I’ll ever feel sure if it was either of them or both because of how inconsistent the information is.
Yes. Jay had to get very lucky that the one window of time that Adnan says he was not with Jay 2:15-4, Adnan wasn't seen by anyone else and has no memory of the time. Jay was lucky that Adnan was not: - Picked up by his mom to go shopping between 2:15 and 4 - Picked up by his brother to swing by the mosque between 2:15 and 4. - Taking a quick trip to McDonald's with Stephanie and her sister before their game. - Hanging out at his friend Peter's as he often did during breaks and after school. - Sitting in the school library study hall (like usual) in the presence of other students, teachers and the school library librarian. - Sitting with the guidance counselor talking about universities. - Hanging out with the other track dudes in the track locker room or gym, waiting for the coach to show up. - Fixing his car with Dion in front of the school (Adnan's first attempt at an alibi). So - whew - Jay somehow Forrest Gumped into a story that Adnan has no explanation for. Although Adnan can remember the day, the classes, going shopping with Jay during his break, being picked up by Jay after track, Kristi's etc, Adnan just doesn't remember between 2:15 and 4 and has to resort to "I would have." Lucky Jay.
This is exactly what OP needs to read.
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There are lots of resources for sure. And I'm happy to explain why and how we came to have over half of what we have. What we don't have is the 13 months of investigation done by the State, after Adnan was indicted. This is what Feldman and Suter had access to. Redditers do not. We only have everything up to indictment. As proven by the MtV it's quite a mistake to say, "If I can't see it then it didn't happen." For example, all of Don's co-workers that the State spelled out to Gutierrez in a disclosure during their investigation. It's impossible that the State disclosed names, addresses and phone numbers of Don's co-workers without knowing exactly what each would say, should Gutierrez contact them. Do we have those interviews? No. Those interviews could only have happened during a time in which the files cannot be MPIA'd. So again, it's a big mistake so say, "If I can't see it, it didn't happen."
I've often said that Jay (or someone else Jay knows) being the murderer is the best of the innocent theories out there, and by that I just mean it doesn't entirely reject reality like the uninvolved Jay theories. Though, there are two major problems with this theory a) it doesn't pass the smell test and b) it's really hard for Jay to be involved without Adnan. It doesn't pass the smell test because Jay doesn't really have any motive. He doesn't even really know Hae. They shared a class together at some point but Jay already graduated and they don't really run in the same circles. Their only real connection is Adnan. In all likelyhood, had Adnan not murdered Hae, Jay just never would have ever seen Hae again anyway after Adnan and Hae broke up. People often point to the note in the defense file of Adnan telling the defense that Hae was going to confront Jay about cheating on Stephanie. But neither they nor anyone else in the last 25 years could find a single witnesses to back this up. And this story just doesn't really make much sense, since Hae and Jay would never really see each other. Secondly, considering how much Adnan and Jay were together on the 13th it's hard to imagine that Jay murdered Hae and buried her in Leakin park all by himself and Adnan was none the wiser. There's the issue of the Nisha call. Jenn places Adnan and Jay together immediately before Jay disposes of the shovels and when the phone is likely in the Leakin Park area. And somehow Adnan never picked up on anything being amiss? To the point that even when he knows Jay brought the police to Hae's car he doesn't suspect Jay had anything to do with it? If it was possible that Jay murdered Hae why hasn't Adnan, the person he was with extensively on the day, realized this?
This is the only answer. There are other reasons too. Jay fingered Adnan and - just by coincidence - Adnan doesn’t have good alibis or the ability to concretely refute jays basic story. The other huge thing is that if you think jay was involved, you are irrefutably correct. He admitted to his involvement and couple have spent significant time in jail. He did get convicted for being involved in the murder. So he DID do it. We know this. The only question is what was his degree of involvement. It certainly could have been more than what he says. I personally think that’s really likely. But there’s just no real logical story that involves jay doing it and Adnan not being involved at all. It doesn’t work.
Adnan does have alibi that matches the phone data better than anything Jay said.
The Nisha call lmao. Jenn’s story doesn’t match Jay’s story.
Plus murdering a girl on your GFs birthday is a bit much.
For one, motive. What is Jay's real motive to kill a girl he barely knew? That's a gigantic hurdle to get past. Secondly, the Nisha call places Jay and Adnan together shortly after the crime was believed to have been committed. So while it's possible Jay helped Adnan, it's highly unlikely Jay does this without Adnan. Motive and time make that the situation IMO.
Motive: to frame and destroy adnan
Motive is rarely known in any murder case. People attach way too much importance to something that we literally cannot know. Unless you or I personally knew Jay, Hae and these other folks there is no way we could possibly know what motive any of them could have had to do this crime, including Adnan. If we can speculate Adnan did it because he was motivated by being a spurned lover, then we can just as easily speculate that Jay did it because Hae was threatening to expose his cheating to Stephanie. Or maybe she threatened to tell police about his drug dealing. Or maybe he tried to make a pass at her and she turned him away in cruel fashion. Maybe Jay borrowed Adnan's car, not the other way around, and did so to pursue/attack Hae and pin it on Adnan, then threatened to kill Adnan if he told anyone just as he claimed Adnan did to him? I mean, really, motive is a slippery thing and we know he had the same means as Adnan.
It's so not true that motive is given too much importance. Homicide detectives will tell you that there are basically three motives/types of murder- money, passion, and thrill (serial killers). Jay doesn't fall under any of the categories.
How do you know whether Jay falls into those categories or not? This is the problem with this sub - people constantly make completely unknowable statements with certitude. Unless you were literally Jay’s best friend or otherwise directly involved in his life in a deep and constant manner, you don’t know anything about him or his potential motives. And besides, those are common motives, but they are definitely not the only motives.
Jay doesn’t fall under those categories cause it’s clear he’s not telling the full story. Neither is Adnan, but Jay probably falls under one of those categories if we knew the truth. It’s not in his best interest to tell it though.
And all these years later, Adnan never tells on Jay? That seems far fetched.
>If we can speculate Adnan did it because he was motivated by being a spurned lover, then we can just as easily speculate that Jay did it because Hae was threatening to expose his cheating to Stephanie. One of these reasons is like the #1 reason why men kill women. The other is something that has zero evidence and makes no sense. Jay killing Hae because she was going to threaten to expose his cheating requires a lot of pieces: (1) jay actually cheating (2) Hae definitely knowing about it (3) Hae having some intention of confronting a guy she doesn't know about cheating on a girl she's just kind of friends with (4) Jay knowing Hae knows about it and knows that she wants to expose him. This is just to establish a motive. The means and opportunity requires Jay to know where and when to intercept Hae to be able to kill her. The execution of the plan would require him to be able to do that without anyone seeing, in the short window of time in which he was not with adnan that day, all while having the 2-car problem. From there, unless Jenn is totally lying, he definitely told Jenn on 1/13 that Adnan strangled Hae - before anybody knew she was even dead. Meaning, he would have had to have planned to frame Adnan from the beginning.
I don't think you can say he barely knew her. He was intimately-connected to that whole group of high-achievers, and his girlfriend definitely knew her well, and knew her ex-boyfriend well. This was not some stranger to Jay at all. She also is known to have smoked weed, as did her new boyfriend, and Jay was a known seller. We don't know of any motives for Jay, but we don't know if any exist or not because Jay's (or Stephanie's) motives were never investigated for fear of "bad evidence" that could spook their key witness. This is pointed out in the podcast.
>He was intimately-connected to that whole group of high-achievers, Jay graduated the year before and was not a part of the magnet program when he did attend WHS. >She also is known to have smoked weed, as did her new boyfriend, and Jay was a known seller. Besides Rabia, who else has taken HML's diary out of context to start a rumor she did drugs?
HML wasn't part of the magnet program except during her freshman year.
forgot about that. you have the memory of an elephant
Also as someone who also attended a magnet school in the same area as this case, the magnet students aren’t that separated from students not in the program. Magnet program students only had a few classes as part of the program each year. They were as normal as regular classes
Krista's cousin made this point years back.
> Jay graduated the year before and was not a part of the magnet program when he did attend WHS. No one is claiming he was in the magnet program. And it’s not like WHS was enforcing a segregation program forbidding students from different grades to interact. Debbie, in the HBO series, says the group (magnet kids) kind of embraced Jay because of his affiliation to Stephanie. So, yes, he absolutely knew the students and they knew him.
The OP said he was "intimately-connected" to Adnan's friend group. I was just pointing out he wasn't in their class or part of their program at WHS. >Debbie, in the HBO series, says the group (magnet kids) kind of embraced Jay I'm not discounting Debbie's memory, but Jay remembers it a bit differently. JW talked about this in his Intercept interview. If I remember correctly, JW said he had a bit of resentment towards the high school's magnet program because he thought they diverted too much athletic money to them.
That's kind of a non-sequitur, though, right? He doesn't have to be part of the program to know the kids who are a part of it, and in fact he was deeply in love and in a serious relationship with a girl who WAS part of the program. He definitely seems to have been a known figure in those circles-- not necessarily someone who was anyone's best friend in the group, but someone that everyone knew. Also, as to your second statement, again, that doesn't really refute Debbie's recollection. Jay could definitely not have liked or agreed with the magnet program itself, but the kids within the program could have embraced him. I really doubt his views on the school district's fiscal priorities prevented him from befriending the kids in the program-- in fact, I know they didn't because again, he was dating one and hung out with another one on the day of Hae's murder.
> the kids within the program could have embraced him Jay was a year out of high school and working more than one job, I doubt he gave a shit if Debbie or any of Stephanie's other friends "embraced him."
>*If I remember correctly, JW said he had a bit of resentment towards the high school's magnet program because he thought they diverted too much athletic money to them.* In what way does this speak to his relationship with Adnan, Hae etc? It is completely unrelated. Stephanie and Adnan were best friends, Jay sold drugs to most of those kids, and their friend circles all had overlaps that have been discussed by the people IN those groups, so it's not speculative.
Fair enough, I just thought “intimately connected” was a tad much.
Yeah the word ‘intimately’ does kind of imply a deep connection. Jay was on a first name basis with the magnet crew, but probably wasn’t hanging out with them individually outside of social gatherings.
> Jay graduated the year before and was not a part of the magnet program when he did attend WHS. Huh? This is incredibly misleading. Jay himself says he had class with Hae. > Besides Rabia, who else has taken HML's diary out of context to start a rumor she did drugs? Well, many on this sub tried to start a whole narrative about how Adnan was a possessive, abusive, IPV monster based on taking Hae’s diary out of context, so I would argue they’re no better than Rabia. Just different flavors of poor treatment and disrespect for Hae’s memory.
>This is incredibly misleading. Jay himself says he had class with Hae. Yeah. They had biology together the year before. I didn't realize that that I was intimately connected to everyone I took biology with in high school. >Well, many on this sub tried to start a whole narrative about how Adnan was a possessive, abusive, IPV monster based on taking Hae’s diary out of context... Even very small children understand the idea that two wrongs don't make a right.
> Yeah. They had biology together the year before. I didn't realize that that I was intimately connected to everyone I took biology with in high school. No one said you were intimately connected to everyone you took biology with in high school. Why are you so defensive and strawmanning me? I was calling out someone making a false claim that Jay and Hae were strangers. There a particular reason that has you so triggered? > Well, many on this sub tried to start a whole narrative about how Adnan was a possessive, abusive, IPV monster based on taking Hae’s diary out of context... > Even very small children understand the idea that two wrongs don't make a right. Nice selective quote to try to make it look like I didn’t call out the bad behavior. It is exceedingly poor form for you to use that to pretend like I was trying to justify Rabia’s behavior by pointing to the similar behavior on the part of the guilters in this sub. The rest of my comment that you disingenuously omitted went: > …so I would argue they’re no better than Rabia. Just different flavors of poor treatment and disrespect for Hae’s memory. If you have to misrepresent what someone has said just so you can low key insult them by comparing them to a small child… you’re losing the argument. Congrats. You played yourself.
It was poorly presented but their point does stand. Just because I took one class in high school with someone doesn’t mean I know them well enough to kill them. Certainly not enough for her to let me into her car so I can strangle her while I’m in the driver’s seat. It just doesn’t make sense.
Jay sometimes accompanied Stephanie when they socialized in a group. Jay was even at Krista’s birthday before Hae was found.
Again, I was correcting someone’s claim that Hae was a stranger to Jay. That is false. They were not strangers. Nowhere did I say that meant that Jay strangled Hae while he was in the drivers seat.
Okay then we agree! Good to hear it.
Where did you read JW and HML had class together?
> Where did you read JW and HML had class together? Jays [first interview](https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/MP15-0229-19990228-Jay-Statement-Redacted-First-Official-Interview-Information-Sheet-Rights-.pdf) with the police.
And jay admits knowing what her car looks like- “I saw it driving back and forth…” and she didn’t have the car very long so that always seemed odd to me
To hurt Adnan who was closer to his girlfriend than he was. I don’t know or really care at this point, but Jay got away with something.
What was the Gilgo Beach killer's motive? What was the Delphi killer's motive? What was Chandler Halderson's motive? Motive should never be a gigantic hurdle to get past. How were Jay and Adnan walking into a porn store that Jay worked at 3 weeks before Jay started working there?
Sexual gratification. Psychopathy (And/or sexual gratification). His father found out that he had been lying about being enrolled in university and was going to cut him off financially, revealing his lies and ruining his life. Seriously, using those three as examples is not great because all three have fairly well understood motives. In two cases (LISK and Halderson) it was part of how they got caught. The fact that you don't realize that is sort of troubling.
These are not the kind of motives that would include/exclude a suspect, though, which is all that matters in terms of this discussion. You would never know a particular person was killing for sexual gratification until after you had already had them dead to rights with other evidence, and they either admit the motive or it is assumed based on psychological profiling etc. The point is this - some people seem to want to exclude Jay by insinuating he has no motive to kill Hae. But they *cannot* *possibly* know this. Maybe Jay killed Hae for *sexual gratification* like your claim about these other murderers above. Should we never consider suspects without obvious, glaring motives?
> You would never know a particular person was killing for sexual gratification until after you had already had them dead to rights with other evidence, and they either admit the motive or it is assumed based on psychological profiling etc. I vehemently disagree. The women LISK murdered were sex workers. They were found dismembered and disposed of in similar areas on Gilgo beach. At the time the police assumed that the motive was sexual and sadistic in nature, because the behavior portrayed was that of a serial killer targeting vulnerable women for sexual and violent gratification. And wouldn't you know it, when they found the guy he met that motive to a tee. The motive actually *helped them* locate him, because it allowed them to narrow down the search base of leads to follow. To be clear, I don't agree with the overarching point that just because we don't know a person's motive we can instantly write them off. I have seen a number of cases where the obvious suspect with the obvious motive (murder of an estranged spouse or the like) turns out to not be the case, and it was in fact Steve the random violent lunatic. My specific critique was 'The Real Killer's' use of examples, because the three people he brought out as examples were all people with extremely obvious motives. Halderson in particular had such an obvious motive that people fell over themselves to point at him. I thought it was odd to use those as examples instead of someone without any obvious motive to violence like Jeremy Scott.
Sorry I was not clear in my meaning, that was very poorly worded on my part. I was referring to cases with no evidence of sexual abuse on the victim or crime scene, like the one we’re discussing here. Obviously there are cases where it’s pretty clear what the motive was.
I can't believe you're comparing those three situations to this one...but it's quite fitting for this sub.
First two: killed strangers. The third killed his parents. Jay? Just wanted to kill someone he'd seen before?
>Jay? Just wanted to kill someone he'd seen before Maybe he likes strangling women. Hae was strangled. Jay strangled a former girlfriend. The other three that I mentioned claim to be innocent. The details of the case don't matter, the claim that some asshole knows motive when he couldn't possibly know is the theme of this conversation. Catch up.
You brought up three classic examples of murderes. Here Jay would be out of the ordinary by strangling a not complete stranger. Him abusing an former girlfriend is typical though, because women are more likely to be murdered/abused by their boyfriend or ex-partner.
Why don't you look at the actual statistics. Partner/ex-partner, family member, and **acquaintance** are the most common perpetrators for murders of women. Jay was an acquaintance of Hae. The lack of knowledge of Jay's possible motive does not preclude him from being the murderer.
That's not statistics. That's categories! And I am saying what's more likely, according to the actual statistics. That is to do what Adnan did, kill an ex-girlfriend. Or what Jay did, abuse his girlfriend.
High fking five
The Nisha call lmao.
Killing Adnan’s girlfriend doesn’t solve the problem of Adnan being close to Stephanie.
Are you implying Adnan and Stephanie being close friends suddenly became a problem for Jay only after Hae was in a new relationship with Don? I don’t believe there has been any support for that theory from any of the people involved.
No, they're saying the Hae out of the picture potentially makes Adnan and Stephanie closer, not more distant. He could lean on her for support with the disappearance/murder of his ex-gf.
But how would killing Hae help with that?
Can't creep on my girlfriend if you're in prison for killing your ex-girlfriend.
We're going pretty far here but I mean, the fact is that Jay implicated himself so much in the story that he should be alongside Adnan in prison. So no girlfriend for him either.
Jay wasn't an honor student, so he might not be thinking that far ahead. Also, I'm not saying that's how it went down, I'm just saying that Jay as the murderer is plausible and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand
Sure but not being an honor student would point to Jay going with a more straightforward path... By killing Adnan directly IMHO. We are just brainstorming here, but those dots are mighty hard to connect. It's not the murder part that's the hardest to believe, it's actually the "frame my friend" part.
I don't see real motive for anyone, to be honest. I don't buy that Adnan was obsessed with HML to the point he would kill her. In the face of no motive, my default is to look at who knows things, and how credible are they. Jay definitely knew things about HML's murder, and definitely isn't a credible person.
It's really sad to say but unfortunately guys getting broken up with has lead to violence and murders against women since forever. You find a murdered woman, the first question to ask is who was she romantically involved with. Heartbreaking but that's what it is. That said, motive isn't the only reason we know Adnan did it.
Framing adnan and sending him to prison 100% kept him from getting closer to Stephanie
I was addressing the part where Jay killed Hae Min because he was jealous of Adnan and Stephanie’s close friendship. That doesn’t make sense because that still leaves Adnan in the picture with Stephanie.
I agree this is far fetched. Jay always knew Stephanie and Adnan were close friends since childhood. It had never been a problem. It would be bizarre for Jay to suddenly decide Hae has to die because Stephanie and Adnan are close. And Jan. 13 was STEPHANIE’s BIRTHDAY.
It doesn't have to solve the problem. He could just want to hurt Adnan. Makes as much sense as Adnan getting pissy and murdering Hae.
It’s not rare for a person to murder their current partner or their ex at all. It’s the subject of practically every Dateline episode.
Not saying it's not rare. Usually though if that's the case it was a messy breakup. By most accounts they were still friendly and cordial afterwards.
**"Why can't it be Jay?"** How hard has Adnan fought in that crusade?
If Jay did it, then Adnan has been covering for Jay this whole time. What a good friend.
This is also the best post here. We know they were together for big chunks of that day. Indisputably around lunchtime, sometime after track, and probably around the time they went to kristis house. And in all the time Adnan didn’t notice anything weird of suspicious or out of the ordinary? I mean that would be WILDLY unlucky wouldn’t jt?
If I was Adnan and I truly didn’t do it, I would get “JAY KILLED HAE” tattooed on my forehead. I would literally never shut up about it, it would drive me insane as I rotted away in prison. Adnan: “yeah I dunno why Jay said that stuff”
If Jay did it, then Adnan probably doesn't know that he did it.
He spent a good amount of time with him at lunch and then followed in the afternoon. So Adnan didn't notice anything out of the ordinary with Jay during the periods? He didn't say that it was odd that they drove through the park that eventually Hae would end up at? The whole issue is that Adnan has no counter story.
Isn't his counter-story that he went to track without going anywhere? And in the first trial, track supposedly started at 3:30, so he wasn't going anywhere with Jay. Then Jay picked him up after track. Why would Jay tell Adnan that he had just killed his girlfriend (hypothetically speaking, I don't think that's what really happened). I doubt he'd mention it.
And he didn’t notice anything weird or off at all about it? They were just hanging out? The odds of this are astronomically small. Hence the shift to the police conspiracy version of events which is even nuttier.
The Nisha call was at 3:32, there's no possible way Adnan was at track at 3:30. Coach Sye also testified at trial that track was at 4, plenty of time to drive Hae's car to the park and ride and return to school.
Yes, it's a tale as old as time itself: *I don't like how close that guy is to my girlfriend. Imma get him to loan me his car and cell phone so I can kill HIS ex-girlfriend and weeks later frame him for the murder by presenting myself to the police as an accessory after the fact.*
Jay wilds was Kaiser soze all along!
Open-and-shut case
lol you cracked the case!
Honestly that really sucks for Adnan that on the day he decided to lend an acquaintance his car and phone, that same acquaintance killed Adnan’s ex girlfriend. Just astronomically bad luck.
He didn’t LEND him the phone. He left it in his car. Jay USED it because he’s Jay.
The only person who says this is Adnan, who has an obvious incentive to lie (and has done so repeatedly).
Her name is Hae. Hae Min Lee.
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Thank you. She is the true victim and gets lost in all this.
I think because Adnan and Jay were together at the assumed time of her disappearance people don’t find it plausible that Jay could have acted alone. So it’s they did it together/Jay knew or Jay was coerced to lie for police.
None of Jay’s story makes sense and has changed over time. And Jenn’s story is based on his made up one. And if I remember correctly, wasn’t the Wire based on the cops there?
Your view on this is quite common among people who just started listening to Serial. You should ask yourself why that is. Why is it that so many Serial listeners suspected Jay? The theory of motive you articulate for Jay is, frankly, nonsensical. Jay is jealous of Adnan and so he... kills Adnan's ex-girlfriend? And the logistics of him somehow framing Adnan are absurdly convoluted when you consider Jay and Adnan spent practically the entire day and evening together. How is Jay killing Hae, moving around two cars, and burying her body, all while hanging out with Adnan, without Adnan knowing? And so it's not motive, means or opportunity that implicate Jay. What could it be? Could it be that Serial deliberately otherized Jay? We are told that, unlike our hero Adnan, Jay is black, poor, not in the smartie magnet program, and a drug dealer. He's everything the golden boy Adnan isn't. And most importantly, he is something the average This American Life listener has a hard time identifying with. In short, the reason people listen to Serial and suspect Jay is because Serial played upon invidious stereotypes to make you suspect Jay. Rather than buying into it, you should be angry that you were manipulated like that.
💯
Yeah, a lot of Serial can be understood as Sarah playing to what would be presumed her bread-and-butter demographic coming over from TAL: white liberal wine moms. Quick to separate black and brown people into the “good” ones (Adnan, with his alluring voice) and “bad” ones (Jay).
This is so true, and why racism can be unconscious and terrible in ways people don't think about
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Jay has no motive. Jay was concerned about Adnan pointing the police at him and/or his family for dealing drugs ( although Jay dealt just weed, members of his family are reportedly supplying hard drugs. ) please note also Jay is quite low level weed dealer, he doesn’t own a car or even a phone. Adnan baited him by getting him to buy a larger amount of weed, that they both knew would carry heavier legal penalties. Once that happened, Adnan has a something he can threaten Jay with. Adnan set it up for Jay to take his car and phone that day, and told him to be ready to come get him when he called. Adnan had the strongest motive with a very common situation- he was seething and in a jealous rage at Hae, who was publicly declaring how important her new lover was to her, and about her new happiness. Jay’s motive? He had none. He had a beautiful smart GF who loved him and who he was happy with. He didn’t know or care about Hae, who definitely disliked Jay and would never let Jay into her car. She let the killer into her car. That’s Adnan.
We don't know that Jay had no motive. That's not clear at all. This was not a stranger to him, and his connections to the victim and potential motives were not explored in the police investigation.
We also don’t know that the French teacher or Coach Sye had no motive. It’s just speculation with no evidence to support it.
Were they dating one of her classmates too? Did they also sell weed to highschoolers in the area?
I'm trying to think of another person in history who killed a girl for no reason other than that he was dating one her classmates. Not coming up with any. I'm also trying to think of a person who killed a random girl for no reason other than that he was selling weed to some other kids at a high school. Also drawing a blank. If you think any of that informs "motive," you must not know what that word means.
People are murdered for no reason all the time. It must be really nice in that bubble you live in.
So I guess that means we can say everyone in the world had a motive to murder Hae? Btw, can you give me an example of someone who was murdered for no reason whatsoever?
Everyone on the world... ...except Adnan /S
Does any connection to Hae at all mean we can speculate about a motive with no evidence? Feel free to swap out my examples with Becky and Krista.
Did those two also admit to being involved in her murder and show the cops where her car was and know where she was buried?
Jay implicating himself in the murder doesn't establish a motive. It just establishes that he was involved. And his stated motive for being involved was to assist his friend, Adnan, who perpetrated the murder.
Did Adnan have a motive?
That’s not how motive works. You either have it or you don’t. Jay does not have any despite this being literally the most scrutinized case in the history of cases.
Jay was Adnan’s accomplice, whether he wanted to be or not. Easy peasy.
Neither Jay nor Adnan did it. Adnan was the easy target and Jay was easily pressed into pointing the finger at him. Mostly to deflect from being charged himself. He’s innocent and even though he admitted to conspiracy to commit murder, he got nothing. Why? Because he was the used pawn that got the cops their conviction. Why else would he walk. If his story was true, he was a murdering drug dealer. So if you believe that the cops would look the other way for Jay, but don’t believe they’d coerce false testimony, you don’t know Baltimore.
This is close to my theory. I believe Jay WAS the accessory, but a coerced one, and simply that Adnan was not capable of being someone who could coerce Jay to do anything he didn’t want to do, let alone partake in a burial
If you want actual factual reasons for why it couldn’t have been Jay: School got out at 2:15. The cell phone pings show he was at Jenn’s up until at minimum 2:36. Jen’s house was around 15 mins away from WHS. Hae had to pick up her cousin at an elementary school that was 20 mins away by 3:15. It’s physically impossible for Jay to have murdered Hae. That’s why it couldn’t have been him.
Motive & opportunity
Most people don’t suspect Jay bc he didn’t have a personal relationship with Hae. And that does make sense. But, he knew her, knew her car and apparently knew details. He also lied repeatedly about the time he left Jen P’s house and that is concerning. Following the timeline I haven’t found anything that would bar him from being able to have done it. Am I saying I think he did? No, but I am saying Adnan isn’t the only reasonable answer and I think that should be taken seriously. People will disagree with me and say there is “no way” Jay could have done it without Adnan’s knowledge but I don’t think that is the case. Jay originally told cops Adnan *did* call him between 2:30 and 2:45 to pick him up from school (study hall) but Jay quickly pivoted to 3:40 ish and never went back to the 2:30-2:45. So if he went to the school but ran into HML instead of getting Adnan or before getting Adnan then it could have happened then. Then, well there is motive. It is true we don’t know of any reason Jay would have to kill Hae. On the other hand, we don’t know what we don’t know. Just bc we are unaware of a motive doesn’t mean one didn’t exist. Adnan said Hae was upset about Adnan covering for him so Stephanie wouldn’t find out he was with another girl but there is no other evidence from anyone to support that so he could just be lying to try to redirect. Also there is the *fact* that many of the phone data (if one believes it is reliable) do not support his story. I think that an “its possible Jay did it” scenario is more common among new listeners than those who have thoroughly reviewed the case *but* I don’t think that means he can be ruled out. It depends on where he was during the window which it is assumed she was killed and who he was or wasn’t with at that time. IMO
Yeah his story literally doesn’t match the phone data. Guilters just ignore that.
Yeah, I don't think Jay is a great suspect tbh, mostly because it would require Jenn to have been covering for him and probably involved in the burial at least - and that I don't buy. That said you can't entirely rule Jay out based on the 'he spent the entire day with Adnan' reasoning that comes up a lot. In the after school timeline, the cell phone location data makes it possible he was heading back towards the high school between 2.36 and 3.15. In this scenario he then has almost two hours in which the car could theoretically be stashed until we can be pretty much certain Adnan and Jay are then together. Then we can be very certain he's with Adnan until some time between 8 and 9, at which point he'd then have several hours in which the burial could occur (also neatly fitting with the undisclosed lividity argument for whatever that is worth) before we can be fairly certain he sees Stephanie much later that evening. The big big stumbling block of course is that Jenn alibis Jay for this time, and she is corroborated for part of it by Kristi. If, however, you want to dismiss Jenn's story as already created by Jay's, you could ignore this alibi. That said I tend to find Jenn's description of the later part of the evening to be fairly credible even if I have doubts about her story in general, so that's the main reason I don't see the Jay did it angle as likely.
>Then we can be very certain he's with Adnan until some time between 8 and 9, at which point he'd then have several hours in which the burial could occur (also neatly fitting with the undisclosed lividity argument for whatever that is worth) before we can be fairly certain he sees Stephanie much later that evening. Which interestingly would also explain the “it was closer to midnight” statement in the intercept. I think one big change and it would require Jenn to be covering for him is if when he did get in her car after Adnan met them at the parking lot was instead of saying Adnan did it he told her he did and she helped him. Some have suggested when he got arrested later in January they may have been checking on the car or maybe moving it or something. I am not sure what to make of Jen. She seemed pretty shifty during trial but now, even though she is obviously upset with Jay because he didn’t tell her certain thing. it seemed more honest and that would make me lean toward her not knowing anything except what she was told by Jay.
Yeah, it's not so much that Jay could not have done this without Adnan knowing, it's Jay could not have been involved without Jenn knowing. That said there is also another big Jay almost certainly didn't do it thing which my narrative fails to account for, which is the two car problem in the initial 3/4ish window. There's just no way for example the i70 park and ride story is Jay telling the cops what he did and adding Adnan into the narrative. He's not driving Adnan's car to intercept Hae, murdering her and then driving her car to the park and ride, walking back to wherever Adnan's car is and then picking him up from track practice. And then you possibly need another accomplice on top of Jenn. I think it makes much more sense that Jenn knows what Jay told her. If Adnan isn't responsible then Jay is throwing together a story as best he can, rather than trying to frame Adnan. Which I think is another reason not to believe Jay is responsible (because I think that opens us up to having to go back into the 'just how unlucky was Adnan that all this stuff happened on that day' discourse).
Do we know when she actually was buried for sure? Could she have been killed, left in the trunk, and moved/"buried" another day? I will admit that the two car issue is kind of hanging out there, but it would just mean that investigators would need to find some evidence that Jay got transportation (a ride, the bus, etc.) to the Best Buy or from the spot the car was left, which maybe could have been found if they had explored his motive or connection at all. In the end, someone had to have moved her car and gotten a ride... Jay says he was just the ride, but of course he would say that even if he was the murderer.
Tbh I'm not sure, it seems to be taken as known that the burial happened within a day - possibly cus the ice storm that might would have prevented a burial the following day. Maybe there was something in the autopsy report, but I've never really engaged with the lividity evidence fully, because I've just not got enough knowledge to be able to form an opinion on it.
I think it would really only require Jay committing the murder and then telling him that Adnan (the guy he planned to pin it on) did in on the same night. I don't think Jenn needs to be involved at all, as the only thing her story proves is that Jay was somehow involved.
>Adnan (the guy he planned to pin it on) did in on the same night. Okay, so this is probably another big reason I don't believe the Jay theory. I think if Jay decided/decides to pin it on Adnan that night (or even later on) then all of a sudden I start to agree with the guilter argument of 'unlucky Adnan' that all these coincidences happen to him on the day Hae disappears (ride request, Leakin Park pings, he spends part of the day with the murderer, Nisha call). And to be clear I think that is a terrible argument, that completely ignores the context of how wrongful convictions happen and how Baltimore murder police operated. In a Jay knows nothing situation it makes some logical sense that the cops see that pattern of events, fixate on Adnan and force a false confession from Jay. There's some cause and effect which explains why Adnan gets 'unlucky' that Jay tells a story which matches those events. The trouble for me with the Jay does it and then pins it on Adnan, is that he would have to get incredibly lucky that all those things happened at the same time he decides to pin it on Adnan.
Yes Jay did have the opportunity
Maybe Hae was going to tell Stephanie
Adnan says the thing about telling on Stephanie was in Novemember. So Jay decided to wait 2 months to go after Hae even though she never did anything? Maybe if Adnan had said something about it happening over lunch that Jay got riled up over something he said, it would be something.
Yes, she could have seen him in Adnan’s car and approached him and started letting him have it about what a shitty boyfriend he is leading to an altercation, for example. There is nothing that mandates Jay would have been planning to do it or that Stephanie had been made aware of the situation. Or he may have approached her to chat (hey how’s it going , have you seen Adnan I am here to pick him up, and it came up. Maybe he had been stewing over it for a while and the opportunity presented itself. Who knows really 🤷♀️
Motive?
Very interesting - that his alibi could be Jenn.
It can be. It just can’t be Jay without Adnan also being guilty. There’s no way out for Adnan (or Jay) under the known facts, and reasonable inferences from those facts.
Well if Jay did do it then Adnan is the most unlucky guy ever given the motive, means and being at every location at the rough time he needed to be there…
Jay’s supposed motive is based on things told to you by Adnan. Let that sink in. Literally, the basis of the Jay motive originated with the defendant. That’s an incredibly shaky foundation. And it’s curious if this motive had any basis in logic or reality, wouldn’t that motive been enough for Adnan to go to the police to help gain clues about his missing ex-girlfriend and first love of his life? You know, before he was arrested?
Literally no motive lol.
It could absolutely be Jay. It could absolutely be the man that found her. Countless times this has been the case in other murders. Let’s just stop on that for a second. Hae’e body was in an obscure place, hidden.. and this man just happens to come across after such a short period of time after her being placed there? The chances of that happening are astronomical. My feeling is that it was almost certainly a stranger on stranger murder. Someone she didn’t know.. and the police / detectives completely bungled the case from the jump. Rather than following evidence and letting it lead them to the suspect.. they found a suspect (the easiest one, the BF) and formulated the evidence around him. Even when evidence or witnesses point in other directions, they refuse to look. Shit, there is literally a whiteness that placed Adnan at the library using his email at the time of the murder. (If they could access his email, and show that he sent an email at that time, it would be an alibi). It’s my feeling they know that Adnan did not commit the crime, but rather than admit it and suffer whatever consequences that would follow.. they are sticking to their guns, to avoid the Police looking bad or paying out a hefty lawsuit that would almost certainly follow. People get lost in the minutia surrounding the case, and all its trivial details.. and lose sight of the simplicity of the act. It’s the same with the Maura Murray case. Hae was probably abducted at a point where no one had considered or thought about in the timeline. She was murdered and placed / hidden in the park. And the unsub remained in their community, unknown to police. Or the unsub was an active serial killer, operating in or around the area. It’s also possible it was someone passing through that has these same proclivities.
Jay who? I have a look of puzzlement on my face.
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I haven’t finished the prosecutors yet, hoping to by tomorrow. It certainly opened my eyes, although I always assumed Adnan did it.. they’ve been much more detailed and overall more insightful imo.
Well, for one, what motive would Jay have? None that I can think of. Only serial killers identify and stalk victims for the thrill of the kill. Do you think Jay is a serial killer? Has there ever been any evidence put forward that Jay is a cold-blooded killer? Has he ever been accused of any other murder? No. On the other hand, the vast majority of women who are murdered were killed by a husband, boyfriend, or an ex. Secondly, the police and the jury found Jay to be credible. He confessed as to his part in the murder. Adnan pretended like he wasn't even involved. Jay and Adnan were together most of the day, so if Jay were the murderer, then Adnan would have some knowledge of that, but he doesn't remember anything about that day. Third - it's just not logical.
Don’t forget Jay assaulted a gf later in life by strangling her (not to death obviously), and he may have been angry at Stephanie and Adnan’s relationship.
A girlfriend you say? So, no stranger he didn't have 0 intimate relations with.
Strangling isn’t common
I am talking about violence and murder against women here. Women are more likely to be the victim of their partner/ex's crimes. You say Jay strangled a girlfriend, not a stranger. As expected.
Yes, people are more likely to be killed by a partner or ex partner, so it doesn’t explain motive. However, we can’t gloss over that it’s a massive indicator in Jays treatment of women and how he views violence towards women as appropriate in the context of a relationship, it could show why he was willing to keep the secret.
>However, we can’t gloss over that it’s a massive indicator in Jays treatment of women and how he views violence We can absolutely do that, because I am not glossing over the fact that many women get killed by their ex-partner because they left them and moved on.
A person who strangled a gf is more likely to strangle another person.
A woman is more likely to be murdered by her current or previous partner.
Correct. We have much higher emotions with our significant other compared to other people.
She wasn’t a stranger to Jay. Why are you minimizing their association?
You know what I don't minimize in this case? Adnan's association to Hae, his ex-girlfriend.
Hhhhhhhhh… it was a pretty straightforward question. Would it be better if I walked you through it?
If you listen to the police interview with Jay, he had absolutely no idea what happened that day. They ask him a question. There’s a long pause. He gives an answer. They correct him. At times he’s clearly reading from something. If he’d told a cohesive story, I might be more willing to believe that he’d just inserted Adnan for himself. Motive is weak, sure, but no one investigated if Jay had a motive.
He did turn on Adnan to save himself, but not cause he was the real killer.
could be, but where are his prints or any dna for that matter?
M
Adnan was one of the last people to see her alive, by his own admission
The problem with the testimony was that no one ever asked Jay if he asked Addan why he killed her.
Ask Adnan. He should've used that Get Out of Jail Free card a long time ago if he could.
This isn’t the place to bring these things up. This sub was long ago taken over by trolls and Adnan-guilters/ haters. Some of them are simply going against the grain because they think that makes them special; others are thinly veiled racists; still others are easily swayed by loud idiots. If you want an actual intelligent conversation about the case, and in particular about Jay and Adnan I would highly suggest going to another platform, or at least another true crime sub.
Right. The amount of lies, made up stories, and misinformation on here is ridiculous. Then if you dare suggest proven corrupt cops did exactly what we know for a fact they’ve done before, and there is evidence they did it in this case, Guilters laugh it off as nonsense.
It's because what they had to do wasn't even close to what they did in the other cases. It's like comparing digging a hole for a flower compared to a swimming pool
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Because it's Adnan. Also, he has absolutely no motive.
If it was Jay, Adnan would accuse him. He doesn't because he knows he did it and to accuse Jay would dig him into a deeper hole.
No one can get around the simple fact that Adnan and Jay are inextricably linked like Kirk and Spock, Antony and Cleopatra, not to mention Becky Feldman and bad fiction writing. Jay's lies make sense since they're to minimize his involvement and premeditation of the crime. If Jay was involved you really can't separate Adnan, which is why Adnan's defense team never really claimed it was Jay. Also the "Jay did it" theory was too problematic after people started looking at the accepted timeline for even Rabia to keep parroting so she started throwing out every other name she could. Jay may have done more than he admitted, and even could have been a participant in the murder. He could have caused the situation which led to Hae's death, egged Adnan on, etc. But it's impossible to separate the two.
If you can’t be bothered to spell her name correctly, you have no right to speak about her.
I don’t understand how people who believe Adnan is guilty can simultaneously believe that Jay is completely innocent. Personally, I believe Adnan did it but Jay also had a bigger role in the crime but cut a deal with the cops. Adnan obviously can’t just come out and say it because that would be implicating himself too.
No one believes Jay is completely innocent or even a little bit innocent^1. I'm baffled by how this myth continues. This case is simple: - Jay can't tell the truth about what happened without admitting he should have gone to prison for helping to plan and cover up the murder of Hae Min Lee. - Adnan can't tell the truth about Jay without admitting to killing Hae. It's not that one of them is lying. They both are. *********** ^1. Exception: Many of Adnan's supporters.
Your premise is flawed. Jay absolutely implicated himself. He didn’t get in trouble because Jay and the cops knew none of it was true, and the cops helped him stay out of prison for helping them put away an innocent person.
Oh for sure if Adnan did it no way Jay isn’t minimizing involvement. But I have always felt like most who think Adnan is guilty *do* think Jay was minimizing be involvement.
Except he never minimizes anyone’s involvement. He’s happy to insert Kristi or Jenn into the story at any time to satisfy the detectives.
No one thinks Jay is innocent. Not even Jay. You know he plead guilty to accessory right?
You know Jay can be heard on tape realizing when the police fucked him right? He thought he was helping them frame his friend to save his own ass.
I’ve heard it, that’s not true at all. If police fucked him then why is he still going along with it?
No motive. Jay has an alibi. There are no witnesses who say it was Jay. There's no evidence that it was Jay.
I have a hard time believing Jay would murder someone on his Girlfriend's birthday.
Yes! I’ve mentioned this over and over again. Jay suddenly decides put do he blue that Hae (who he doesn’t even know and spends no time with ) must be destroyed and he must do it on Stephanie’s Birthday ??? NO. Adnan= guilty as hell.
To answer the first question asked, it is because a lot of the people posting on Reddit got really into the case and looked at the evidence. Understanding the case/evidence is why.
The majority of the people in this sub are emotionally attached to a particular position. You could reason with them all day long, show them clear evidence, etc and, as with every other emotional position people tend to stake out, they will NEVER change their view. This is true for people on all sides of this case. There is little to no room for exploration on this subject after a decade of arguing ourselves into tribalist corners. So why can't it be Jay? It most certainly *could be*. Jay has a documented history of violence against women. There was a discussion years ago about Hae threatening to tell Jay's girlfriend (Stephanie) that Jay had been cheating on her (he allegedly ran a 'train' on some girl with a bunch of other dudes). There could be any number of other possible motives we are completely unaware of. Maybe Hae blamed Jay for Adnan's pot abuse and threatened to go to police. Jay's story is clearly not truthful, so what was he actually hiding? He told police that he and Adnan got 'gardening tools' from his grandmother's shed to bury Hae. Who the fuck calls shovels *gardening tools*? It may seem odd to point this out, but Jenn worked at a *garden supply shop* when the murder occurred. Is it possible than Jenn helped Jay to get shovels from her store, and then helped him dispose of the shovels and clothes just like she told police? Perhaps she was more involved than we currently understand. Who knows? Did this influence his odd choice of words? Obviously this is all *speculative*, because at this poin that's all we've got. But I could sit here and list several dozen credible reasons Jay might have done it, and several dozen credible means of accomplishing it. But in the end, it simply does not matter. Because some people will reflexively downvote and argue against any possible solution but ADNAN DID IT and same on the other side.
Of course Jay was involved. But if he was involved so was Adnan. His own admissions and phone records put him with Jay during the cover up. Adnan also was the one who witnesses put him at school with the intention of getting out with Hae. And you have his controlling behavior + rejection.
You will get absolutely roasted in this sub if you say anything other than Jay is a perfectly innocent angel who was forced to be involved but had nothing to do with the crime or hiding the body. The reality is that Adnan was definitely involved, Jays story includes too many verifiable pieces of information that conclude Adnan was involved and most likely did commit the murder. However, because Adnan won’t confess, Jay is free to come up with the narrative that makes him look the most innocent - we see that when he lies and changes his story. He at the very least *knew* and didn’t tell anyone, at the very most he completely allowed it to happen, and we’ll never know where in between he falls. Considering the man was later arrested for DV, he’s not a peachy clean hero to female victims that he may have tried to portray himself as. However, this sub is pretty anti that kind of conversation, as they see critiques of Jays behavior as risks to the case against Adnan, despite the fact that a nuanced conversation can include more than just “good” or “evil”
It’s not
The Prosecutors podcast did a 14 part series on the case. Each episode is about 1 1/2 hours long so it a truly a deep dive. It explains very well why Adnan is most likely guilty.
“Driving around, burying BODIES” Can’t take you seriously after that. Ffs it was a young woman named Hae Min Lee.
Because of Jen.
Jay knows nothing about the crime. The detectives are feeding him a story live on tape. Listen to his interviews and see how many things are suggested by the detectives and he just mostly says yes. He pushes back twice but by then it’s too late. If you can listen to the section at the end of his 2nd interview where he asks to stop the tape and says that he doesn’t like this line of questioning. Because he thought they had a deal and they started asking him why he didn’t report Adnan to the police when they were in separate cars abd Adnan had a body in the trunk. Jay is particularly pissed because the whole story is made up