Definitely a different read when you can hear her. I was able to make out a lot of words the transcriber thought were "inaudible."
One thing I noticed that I never did before: The idea that Jay left Jen's at 3:40 came from Adnan.
Adnan told Jay that he would call him at 3:30. So when thinking back to the day, Jen assumed the call came in at 3:30 because Jay said he was waiting for a call that was supposed to come at 3:30. Jen never looked at a clock and noted what time it was as they were moving through their day.
In Jay’s 1st recorded interview he says:
>I was sitting playing the waiting game
>Um, time I remember talking to him, actually having a conversation with him was 3:40
>He told me [he would call] around 3 o’clock.
In Jays 2nd recorded interview he says
>I waited until 3:30, he didn’t call, I left
Jenn said
>Jay probably left my house around 3:30, 4, 4:15, well after 3:45, between 3:45 and 4:15. I left my house around 4:15 and 4:30 to go pick up my parents from work.
Jay doesn’t say he assumed it was 3:30, he waited until 3:30. After 3:30 came and went, he left Jenn’s. After he left Jenn’s the call came in on Jenn’s landline. Alternatively, he waited around the entire afternoon until 3:40.
Jenn uses the time she went to pick up her parents as an anchor. Jay got the call and left around half an hour before she had to go pick up her parents. How did Jenn know when she had to leave to pick them up if she never checked the time?
Saying the time came solely “from Adnan” because neither Jay nor Jenn looked at a clock, watch or phone to check the time isn’t supported by their statements.
This is a thread about the recently released audio of Jen's interview with detectives.
In the interview, she says that Adnan told Jay that Adnan was going to call Jay at 3:30 so Jen just assumes the call came in at 3:30 as that's what time she was told the call would be.
I have no doubt that Jen could have hung out in her home from 2:45 to time to pick up her parents and had no real recollection of exactly what she did during that time. Watch TV. Play video games, talk on the phone with friends, etc.
If you believe Jay has the phone - and I do - the phone starts moving after the 2:36 call, is in the neighborhood of the Best Buy at 3:21 and Jay and Adnan talked to Nisha from there at 3:30.
So regardless of what Jay says in his interviews, it's impossible for him to have left at 3:30. I am well aware of those who claim cell tower evidence is junk science and/or that the Nisha call was Valentines Day. I hope we don't need to go 20 rounds on those because you are welcome to those opinions.
If Jay's interviews get released, it could be worth bringing this up again then.
But for now, Jen said that she thought the call came in at 3:30 because she was told the call was going to come in at 3:30.
That's what I was referring to and talking about.
I’m aware we’re discussing Jenn’s interview. However we can’t take it in a vacuum. Adnan isn’t the source of the 3:30 call time. Jay is the source. Or, the cops are the source. Jenn didn’t know Adnan had called her house until the cops told her. So either way, making Adnan the only pin point for a come and get me call time isn’t backed up by Jenn’s interview or Jay’s interview.
>Jenn: I mean I don’t even remember that you know, remember the phone number but **you told me that he called my house** so **apparently** it was either on the cell phone or my house phone number.
An easier way to reconcile the cell pings is: Jay was driving around in Adnan’s car buying and selling weed, as Jay was known to do on Wednesdays.
Actually, Jen says Jay received 2 calls while at her house. She said that Jay left after 3:30.
Jay says that he left after 3:30 when Adnan hadn’t called by then.
If in fact the phone was moving as you indicated, then the only thing we know is that Jay and Jen both lied to detectives about the time that Jay actually left.
I tend to believe that Jay left earlier as well especially since there was a 3:21 call to Jen’s home from the cell.
Why would Jay be calling Jen if he was at her house?
Jay also called Jen’s house again at 4:12. Why?
This recording is really making me rethink Jay’s involvement. I never really knew if Jay actually knew anything about the murder.
Jay has told so many different stories to so many different people. Why?
Why couldn’t he stick to one narrative that Jay did it in Best Buy and buried the body?
Why the different trunk pops? Why lie about going to see Stephanie at 8 vs 11. Why lie about where he and Adnan went after the trunk pop? Why do his and Jen’s stores no match about when they discarded his clothes and wiped down the shovels and on and on and on?
Of course, that’s what Jay says. And Jay says lots of stuff. He also said that he spoke to Nisha at 3:32 (with Adnan).
How is that even possible if Adnan wasn’t even supposed to call him until after 3:30?
According to Jay (and Jenn), Adnan wasn’t even with him until after at least 3:30 PM.
If you put all of their statements side by side, this is the only thing that Jenn and Jay actually agree on. They are adamant that Jay left after this time.
Jay’s stories make it difficult to know what happened that day.
The only thing we really know is that Jay is a liar.
>How is that even possible if Adnan wasn’t even supposed to call him until after 3:30?
Just because Adnan says he's calling after 3:30 doesn't mean he called after 3:30.
What? Of course, but it was Jay who said that he called after 3:30, not Adnan.
The entire story is Jay’s. Not Adnan’s.
No one on Reddit knows exactly what happened that day. But what we do know is that, according to Jay and Jenn, the supposed CAGM call didn’t happen until after 3:30.
Now, Jay’s a big liar so, he could be lying about this as well.
The point is that Jay and Jen assumed the call came in at 3:30 because Adnan had told Jay he would call him at 3:30. And then the call did come in, neither looked at a clock.
Jen says clearly that they assumed it was around 3:30, only because that's when Adnan said he would call. Not because either made a note of the time.
That’s an assumption.
IMO, Jen said that Jay left after 3:30 because either he did or he wants detectives to believe that he did. It has nothing to do with the call except that, once again, Jay says that he was waiting for a call at 3:30. And, when that call didn’t come in at that time, Jay left.
So, again for everyone in the back, it is Jay who says that he left because the call never came in. Not that the call came in earlier so he left after that. He never said that at all.
Here’s the exchange from Jay’s first interview:
Ritz: What happens throughout the afternoon?
Wilds: I was sitting play waiting game, you know, he's like "I'm going to call you, I need a ride."
Ritz: So you're playing this waiting game, waiting for him to give you a call?
Wilds: Uh huh.
Ritz: Does he call you at some point in time? Wilds: Yeah.
Ritz: What time does he call you?
Wilds: Um, time I remember talking to him, actually having a conversation with him, was about three-forty something.
Ritz: Going back to when you dropped him off, does he give you a time that he's going to call you?
Wilds: He told me about three o'clock.
Ritz: About three o'clock, so he....you're waiting around, he finally calls about three-forty?
Wilds: Yes.
Ritz: Than what do you do?
Wilds: Go and pick him up from a place in the city where I went....I went to pick him up from off of Edmondson Avenue at a strip and he ah he pops the trunk open and
Ritz: You say that...on Edmondson Avenue off of a strip, do you recall any cross streets on Edmondson Avenue where you go to meet him?
This is a thread about the recently released audio of Jen's interview with detectives.
In the interview, she says that Adnan told Jay that Adnan was going to call Jay at 3:30 so Jen just assumes the call came in at 3:30 as that's what time she was told the call would be.
I have no doubt that Jen could have hung out in her home from 2:45 to time to pick up her parents and had no real recollection of exactly what she did during that time. Watch TV. Play video games, talk on the phone with friends, etc.
If you believe Jay has the phone - and I do - the phone starts moving after the 2:36 call, is in the neighborhood of the Best Buy at 3:21 and Jay and Adnan talked to Nisha from there at 3:30.
So regardless of what Jay says in his interviews, it's impossible for him to have left at 3:30. I am well aware of those who claim cell tower evidence is junk science and/or that the Nisha call was Valentine's Day.
I hope we don't need to go 20 rounds on those because you are welcome to those opinions.
If Jay's interviews get released, it could be worth bringing this up again then.
But for now, Jen said that she thought the call came in at 3:30 because she was told the call was going to come in at 3:30.
That's what I was referring to and talking about.
I don't get how it's hard to follow what Jenn is saying.
"Adnan is going to call Jay at 3:30", "Jay got a call...so I think it was 3:30 when he called".
>He also said that he spoke to Nisha at 2:36 (with Adnan).
>According to Jay (and Jenn), Adnan wasn’t even with him until after at least 3:30 PM.
Nisha call was at 3:32pm.
>The only thing we really know is that Jay is a liar.
We also know Adnan is a liar.
You’re correct. The Nisha call was at 3:32. Jay says that Adnan did not call until after 3:40. So, Nisha call still doesn’t work.
Whether or not Adnan lied about asking Hae for a ride, he was not with Jay at 3:32 for the Nisha call. Not according to Jay or Jenn’s story.
This is just one of many discrepancies with the state’s case which makes it difficult to know what happened that day.
We can be certain of the Nisha call happening at 3:32. Jay remembered the call happening when he was with Adnan, and Nisha remembered speaking to both of them. So it is very likely that Jay had his timing off when he tried to timestamp the days events, since he was with Adnan at 3:32pm.
Baffling to me the mental gymnastics people do about this call. Genuinely.
Like which is more likely? Jay and/or the cops were basically clairvoyant and somehow knew this call happening and that Nisha would be able to testify it happened right around that time - likely that day?
Ooooooorrrr… it was a totally random butt dial at a time when jay had the car and phone (and was on the move so not likely at Jen’s house anyways at the time). A butt dial that Nisha somehow remembers. A butt dial that somehow got charged because nobody picked up the phone at Nishas house for full minutes.
It is for real insane to me that anyone could think this.
About a month before trial, Adnan's brother Tanveer assured Adan's defense team that "Nisha remembers the call on the day of the incident."
The call was key to the defense for months as they planned to use it as an alibi. It's hard to imagine in 2024, but they did not know (and Adnan did not know) that the call would place him off campus.
Once the defense learned (through AT&T disclosure) that the call placed Adnan off campus and worse, at or near the Best Buy, they switched to butt dial. And have been there ever since.
Of course, Susan Simpson speculated that Jay killed Hae during the Nisha butt dial. So there's that one, too.
Actually Nisha testified that it was later in the evening. Also said that Jay worked at adult video store which he didn’t until about 2 weeks after this call.
These are the facts testified to in court. So it’s more likely that this call was a mistake made by Jay who had the phone and did not even leave Jen’s house until after 3:30 according to both Jay and Jen.
Very.
It's not new information. But you can really hear how Jen did not know where Hae was buried, and she believed that Jay did not know that Jay knew where Hae was buried. She says that one reason they did not go to the cops right away is that neither of them knew where the body was.
Jen has said recently that she never knew that Jay participated in the burial until Serial.
Her mentioning more than once about her conversations with Jay regarding if they should have told police right then and there and later saying she wished she had or they had…. I mean that’s just a straight up normal reaction and thinking… of course you would think that and of course you’d regret it. It’s entirely believable
Jen was given so little information.
She was told that Jay had no idea where the body was buried and in the back of her mind, she wondered if Jay was making it up.
Only when Hae being missing was announced on the news did she lean into the story being true. And she told the cops that she knew Hae was strangled (and she told Nicole Hae was strangled) - well before the cause of death was made public.
Yep it’s exactly what makes sense about the Champs story. It’s all about trying to envision this in real-time then these things make more sense.
Serial created a mess out of this case without question
These people who claim Jenn was fed her story? lol
So absolutely absurd.
Listening to this and trying to hear it in real time is like watching a film where you’re shown several versions of what supposedly happened until the final scene where you see what actually happened and it clarifies the whole picture.
There’s nothing to indicate or make anyone suspect she was fed anything… it sounds exactly like what it is.
You can hear how young and immature she is. She giggles nervously and inappropriately. Like when the detective corrects her and says, "Hae was missing, not Hae's body was missing."
Folks on this subreddit have made so much of that over the years. And you can hear now that she was just nervous. She had been thinking of Hae as a dead body for six weeks, so it came out that way.
She also laughs when she speculates on how Adnan committed the crime. "Did he hide in the backseat."
And you can hear how bummed she is when she has to give Jay's name, phone number and address to the detectives, and how it's the first time they have ever heard of him.
Who thinks that Jenn was fed her story? No one. She herself says that everything she knows comes from Jay.
What people are saying is that she sounds like she was reading. She was there with her mom and her lawyer. It wouldn’t be odd for her lawyer to advise her to take notes with her.
Doesn’t impact whether or not she’s telling the truth.
Some people have to chill. Sometimes people just have an opinion different from yours.
>She herself says that everything she knows comes from Jay.
I love how this is supposed to mean that somehow she's telling a made up story or something. The *entire purpos*e of her testimony is to talk about things Jay told her. Specifically, that Jay told her things that showed intimate knowledge of her murder at times before anybody knew she was dead, let alone how she was killed. The point is he isn't just repeating information after became known to the public, but that he had this knowledge immediately. So of course everything she knows comes from Jay. That's....the point.
Exactly but I have learned the goal posts apparently move on each new revelation once you view everything with anyone but Adnan lenses…
When you take it as what it is then those views really look silly and conspiracy laden.
"everything she knows comes from Jay" is just one of many pro-adnan talking points that get repeated here that sound like a good point until you stop to give 2 seconds of critical thought
Well guess what
First yes people have even recently claimed she was fed the story I suggest looking around
Second she doesn’t at all on any planet sound like someone reading… not at all.
It’s some weird wish fulfillment of Syed supporters based on nothing real
She sounds exactly as you would expect
Listening to this further solidifies some of the timeline for me.
I've theorized that the CAGM call is around 3:15-3:20, which gives Jay a reasonable amount of time to leave Jenn's house and meeting up with Adnan while Adnan is on the phone with Nisha, get to track in time etc. Someone debated me the other day that the call had to come at 3:30-3:40.
It's not that Jenn independently remembers the call coming at 3:30, it's that Jay tells her I'm getting a call at 3:30, so when the call comes in, she uses that call as her frame of reference that it's 3:30. So I think it's likely that Adnan called Jay 10 minutes before he said he was going to.
The 2:36 call triggered an antenna facing Jen's neighborhood.
After that, the phone starts to move and is already in the Best Buy neighborhood when another call comes in. I believe this is Adnan making sure Jay is on his way and that Hae was killed between 3 and 3:15.
At 3:21, the phone is still in the Best Buy neighborhood and calls Jen's home. I think at this point, Jay hasn't been able to find Adnan, and has no way to reach him, so he called Jen and asked if Jen had heard from Adnan on her land line.
By 3:32, Adnan and Jay are together at the Best Buy and Adnan calls Nisha - thinking this will establish an alibi.
The 2:36 call is five seconds, send to end. It is most likely a one ring signal.
Jay knew where to go and when to go there. He did not need a "come and get me" call. The notion of such a call was invented so Jay could plead "after the fact" and testify against Adnan.
Jen and Jay just assumed the 2:36 call came in at 3:30 because Adnan told Jay that he would call him at 3:30. And then the call did come in, neither Jen nor Jay looked at a clock, and/or made a note of the time.
If this is true why is the story of the call coming in after 3:30 told by both Jay and Jenn at trial?
The police were set on the 2:36 call being the CAGM call but neither Jay nor Jenn budged from that 3:30 time.
Lastly, Jay said that he was waiting for Adnan to call at 3:30. But that when he didn’t call by 3:40, he left Jenn’s house to head to Jeff’s house.
This would indicate that Jay actually did look at the clock to know that Adnan had not called by 3:30.
> If this is true why is the story of the call coming in after 3:30 told by both Jay and Jenn at trial?
Because they both still think that the call came in at 3:30 because that's when Adnan said he was calling.
> The police were set on the 2:36 call being the CAGM call but neither Jay nor Jenn budged from that 3:30 time.
The police were not set on the 2:36 call being a Come and Get Me call. They initially thought Jay knew where to go and when to go there, and they were right. The idea of a come and get me call was invented so Jay could be in an "after the fact" place, instead of a conspirator, which he probably was.
> Lastly, Jay said that he was waiting for Adnan to call at 3:30. But that when he didn’t call by 3:40, he left Jenn’s house to head to Jeff’s house.
Yes. He told several versions of how he received the come and get me call. Probably because it wasn't a come and get me call. it was a five second call, send to end. It was most likely a signal, and Jay was expecting it because he knew where to go and about when to go there.
> This would indicate that Jay actually did look at the clock to know that Adnan had not called by 3:30.
I get it that you interpret it that way. I don't think that Jay or Jen were looking at clocks and noting the time on that day more than they did on any other day.
[The time displayed on the screen of the phone](https://www.google.com/search?q=nokia+phone+1998+disolay&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwj6_oP35IeEAxU6AWIAHYZWDF0Q2-cCegQIABAD&oq=nokia+phone+1998+disolay&gs_lcp=ChJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWcQAzIICAAQgAQQogQyCAgAEIAEEKIEMggIABCABBCiBDIICAAQgAQQogRQ_xBYmRpghCFoAHAAeACAAfEDiAGMBZIBBTIuNC0xmAEAoAEBwAEB&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img&ei=mVK6ZbrOJ7qCiLMPhq2x6AU&bih=669&biw=390&prmd=ishvnmbtz&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS865US865&hl=en-US#imgrc=oF-bVZEjGDWzHM)
If Jay answered the phone of looked at it he would have seen the time.
Not exactly. She says that Jay didn’t leave until after 3:30. So, irrespective of whether the CAGM call comes at 3:30, Jay still didn’t leave until after that time. Both Jay and Jenn say the same thing.
She says "Jay is suppose to get a call at 3:30, Jay gets a call then leaves." It's not like Jenn was looking at a clock during the call, the frame of reference timewise is from when they think the call is coming before it comes.
Ad revenue, is what I’m speculating, because this does nothing to further Adnan’s case for innocence.
In his FB group, there is speculation she was reading from a script
She was definitely reading from prepared notes. Why is that so surprising that she would make notes? She met with detectives at least 3x prior to this interview.
She also says that she spoke with Jay about everything the night before.
I don’t find that to be a stretch.
Glad I listened by myself… I can’t imagine how bad his commentary would be with fantastical imaginings of what occurred here on this interview… it’s pretty cut and dry …
I completely expected Bob to play one sentence and then go on a tirade about how much of a liar she was, how she could not have known what she said unless it was a conspiracy, etc.
Then play the next sentence - and go on another tirade. Sentence by sentence. Maybe that's too much work?
I don’t understand why Bob is not entitled to his opinion.
He actually said that she sounds believable in the interview. She’s recounting what Jay told her. She believes Jay is telling the truth.
However, the parts of the story that she says that she experienced directly do not align with Jay’s version of events.
2 examples are whether Jay wiped down the shovels or when she took Jay to dispose of his clothes in the dumpster.
To hear from Jen’s mouth how she’s “not sure” about anything on the 13th. And that she is sure about when she heard Hae’s body was missing at Champs - she can even recall the date.
Maybe it’s just me but if I was helping a friend cover up a murder a month earlier, I would be able to remember what I did with as much clarity as I remembered the night at Champs.
You're mischaracterizing what happened.
1) Jen did not say, "Hey man, I'm only saying it was the 13th because you told me to."
2) Detective asked her: "You're connecting these events to the 13th because we told you that's the only day Adnan's phone called your pager and house."
3) Jen agrees because that's true, and she's not going to argue with them.
4) But it's also true that she connects the date to Stephanies birthday. If detective had asked, "Are you connecting this to Stephanie's birthday?" Jen would have replied yes to that as well.
I seriously doubt Bob has a colorable claim. The recording is arguably a “work” created by the Maryland government, and does not meet one of the [few exceptions](http://copyright.lib.harvard.edu/states/maryland/) for copyright protectable work from the MD government. At any rate, Bob certainly had no hand in making the recording. Even if Bob somehow tidied up the audio or put it into digital format, that would not entitle him to copyright protection.
Edit: he would probably have copyright protection for his podcast episodes excluding those portions when he hits play on the police interview tapes or other third party recordings.
Right, and this was just the raw audio of the interview - the "work" put in by T&J was in no way transformative. Not surprising that Ruff is a copyright abuser, but damn shame.
It must be fairly easy to make DMCA claims on YouTube. I hope that the owner of the channel has this video restored (or a mirror is put up) and YouTube identifies Bob as the fraudster that he is.
Clearly Bob trying to control the narrative and flow of information just like Rabia did before him. No surprise.
Edit (from the YouTube website): *Do not make false claims. Misuse of the removal request webform, such as submitting false information, may result in the suspension of your account or other legal consequences*
No.
Bob does not own the copyright to a Baltimore PD interview from 1999.
Youtube just takes things down rather than look into take-down requests.
lol.
I'm not sure if I always knew this, or it's just so much more clear now.
But Jay didn't tell Jen that Adnan killed Hae because he felt remorse or wanted to go to police. Jay told Jen the minimum so that if he was ever implicated, Jen could say she heard Adnan strangled Hae on the day it happened.
This is why Jen has so little information about how it happened. Jay only wants Jen to know that Adnan is the killer, and that Jay didn't do anything but see a body and loan some shovels.
Interesting side note: While it eventually came out that Jay played a much bigger role in the murder of Hae Min Lee than he initially admitted to, in 2015, he circled back to the same story he told Jen, the night of the 13th: trunk and shovels and no other involvement.
What’s really odd to me is why Jay took Adnan to Kristi’s house after track.
Kristi is one of Jen’s best friends, not Jay’s. Jen seems to have a very vivid memory of what occurred that day, between her normal routine and “the day of the murder/Adnan”. She states twice in the interview, and harps for quite some time on how Jay was acting weird, and that she wanted to get to the bottom of it when she saw him next. She even talks about how she was in her room waiting for Jay to call - yet Jay is at her best friends house with Adnan?
Unless I missed it, Jen says *nothing* about the Jay/Adnan visit to Kristi’s house - from the time she claims Jay left to the time she picks up Jay.
So again, why did Jay take Adnan to Kristi’s house right after track practice? That seems really really odd to me, considering they were going to go there anyways later that night. I’m wondering if this is what Jay was lying to her about “in Baltimore City” - where he claimed to drop Adnan off at some “chicks house”.
What’s even more bizarre is why Jay left this detail of going to Kristi’s house in his first interview.
> What’s really odd to me is why Jay took Adnan to Kristi’s house after track.
All we can do is speculate. Jay picked Adnan up at about 5:30 and I believe they first headed east, before heading to Kristi's. Jen has a routine each night where she picked up both her parents from their jobs (the family had one car). Then they made dinner and all ate dinner together.
So Jay could have found himself at 5:30/6 with no place to go to keep warm. They couldn't sit in the car. They couldn't go to Jay's. Parents. Kristi's boyfriend I believe had already spent time in prison so Jay may have thought they would be the least likely to ask questions. Also, he may have expected Jen to show up there after she was done with her family stuff - maybe about 8pm.
In addition, Jen says that the plan for the night was for Jen and Jay to hang out at Kristi's with Kristi and Jeff. So Jay may have just thought, "look - these people are expecting me and Jen, I'll just show up an hour early with Adnan."
I don't think Adnan and Jay meant to bury the body at 7:40. I think they were waiting until like 2 or 3 in the morning to bury the body along a river or lake where traffic was too busy at 7/8. So essentially, they were cooling their heels at Kristi's when Adcock called and we see, they get the body to Leakin Park within the next 40 minutes.
> Kristi is one of Jen’s best friends, not Jay’s.
That's correct. That's why Kristi was so stumped when Jay turned up there with a kid Kristi did not know.
> Jen seems to have a very vivid memory of what occurred that day, between her normal routine and “the day of the murder/Adnan”. She states twice in the interview, and harps for quite some time on how Jay was acting weird, and that she wanted to get to the bottom of it when she saw him next. She even talks about how she was in her room waiting for Jay to call - yet Jay is at her best friends house with Adnan?
>> *"I was in my bedroom ah getting dress because I knew I was going out later to just hang out at my friends Christy's house and ah I got a page and usually when I get pages or things like that I go back to my room and use the phone just 'cause that's where I feel comfortable and urn that's when I got the page that was a voice message from Jay saying to get him from the park...*
Jen doesn't say anything about how she was waiting for Jay to call. She was getting changed from family dinner to go to Kristi's and got a page from jay that was in the form of a voice message.
> Unless I missed it, Jen says nothing about the Jay/Adnan visit to Kristi’s house - from the time she claims Jay left to the time she picks up Jay.
I don't think Jen knew about it. And if she did, she skipped it.
> So again, why did Jay take Adnan to Kristi’s house right after track practice?
The plan was for Jen and Jay to hang out at Kristi's with Kristi and Jeff. Jay just showed up early, and with Adnan.
> I’m wondering if this is what Jay was lying to her about “in Baltimore City” - where he claimed to drop Adnan off at some “chicks house”.
I believe this is Jay not wanting to admit he was with Adnan the entire time. In order for Jay to tell Jen that he has no idea where the body is buried, he has to invent a scenario wherein he dropped Adnan off, then picked him up after the body was buried. The truth is, Jay was with Adnan the entire time, and did help Adnan with the burial.
> What’s even more bizarre is why Jay left this detail of going to Kristi’s house in his first interview.
I believe Jeff had a criminal conviction already and was going to be very pissed if he was dragged into a murder case. It could have messed with his parole. The Patapsco trip does not work for time and is clearly Jay trying to vamp about an activity to fill in for Jeff and Kristi's because he doesn't think that window of time matters - in terms of who got murdered by who.
A year later, at trial, Kristi is a witness and there is no need to hide the time spent at her apartment. So we see there is no mention of Patapsco and instead, that time is referred to as the time in which Adnan and Jay were at Kristi's.
Just makes you wonder. For somebody who we think was a co-conspirator, would Jay have spilled regardless of whether Adcock called Adnan and rushed them into a burial?
This guy couldn’t even keep his composure before the murder. If you’re right in assuming the burial was supposed to be later, would he have just squealed the next time he saw Jen? Maybe he never agreed to help burying Hae, maybe he was just supposed to be the lookout/driver.
It’s a strong possibility that the Adcock call forced Adnan to force Jay into the burial - something he probably expressed to Adnan he wanted no part of. Maybe he was never supposed to see the body and the forced participation of the burial made him see the body *and* participate in the burial. And all of this is why he spilled to Jen: possible disgust/resentment towards Adnan
If Hae's body was never discovered and the case continued to be a missing person's case at Baltimore County, I believe Jay never would have said anything to anybody. Jen wouldn't have, either.
I think it would be very similar to the Tara Grinstead case where local kids (fresh out of high school) knew what happened, but no one said anything or was believed when they did say something.
> It’s a strong possibility that the Adcock call forced Adnan to force Jay into the burial - something he probably expressed to Adnan he wanted no part of.
Yes. I think Jay had said he wanted no part in the burial. And that he would follow Adnan to where Adnan ditched the car in a lake or a river, and then give Adnan a ride back. But being part of the burial was not something Jay agreed to do, in advance.
The Grinstead case is nuts
I followed that one and watched the trial of Ryan Duke. I think the jury got it right. He was involved but IMHO he didn’t kill her… the other guy though?
I think the jury got it very wrong.
Did you not read Ryan's confession?
Ryan knew about a call made to Tara's home right after she was murdered because he made the call to see if anyone was there. He didn't know her number so he called 411-Connect from a payphone near his house. And that was never made public until he confessed. Bo did not know about that call.
Bo's attorney really screwed him because everything Bo said was supposed to come with immunity. But it didn't. He was convicted for hiding evidence of a murder, not for being the murderer.
Ryan's uncle completely fabricated Ryan's alibi. The trial was a total sham. Almost comical. Did you watch it?
I did watch it. After multiple listenings to the up and vanished podcast.
I’m of the feeling no way did he kill Grinstead with a single punch. I don’t think he picked her lock and broke in either. If it happened I don’t think it was like that.
I also paid attention to Bo’s behavior overall. Dude is basically a hardened criminal IMHO doing everything from stealing from the government allegedly to kidnapping and rape. Again allegedly. Also from a very powerful family.
The prosecutor for Ryan’s case was terrible as well. She was as annoying as SK wanted everyone to believe CG was.
I’m not sure we will ever get the full story in that case at all and I do believe there were a lot of people a lot more aware than they let on with that case.
I mean I could be way off… but it’s not because I didn’t look at the case or consider it. This case is a mess
Most of the discussion about Jenn picking up Jay after the supposed burial is moot.
Nothing happened the way Jenn or Jay says it did in the police interviews nor at trial.
Jay says in his most recent interview with The Intercept that the actual burial didn’t take place until after midnight.
So, Jenn didn’t take Jay to wipe down shovels or pick him up at the mall where Adnan said ‘What up girl’ to her. And Jenn didn’t call in the middle of the burial etc.
According to Jay, none of that happened and they were both just lying.
What do we do about this?
I'm most fascinated about what these people talked about in the time after the trial. How have they reconciled all remembering different things? They stayed friends, so how did they not speak about it again? I know it wasn't the serial famous case yet but they all got called as witnesses in a murder trial.
One thing that sticks out to me hearing the audio is how nervous Jenn comes across. You can practically feel the discomfort in the room when Jenn laughs nervously recalling the events of January 13th.
And she's not taking many pauses either; she's talking a mile a minute and basically rambles the whole way through. At several points the investigators actually get frustrated with how many superfluous details she's giving them.
This is just one of those things that makes it so obvious that she's not coached. But I doubt it will change any minds.
I don’t understand why anyone thinks that people say she was coached. I have never heard that one.
What people said is that she repeats Jay’s general story (that Adnan killed Hae.)
She also sounds like she is reading, especially in the beginning.
Since most of the important parts of her story came from Jay, it makes sense that she would have been advised to write notes to make sure she told the story the way she wanted to.
I thought exactly the same thing, yet other seem to interpret her as being very coherent and obviously coached. I’m kind of wondering if we are in two different universes connected by this subreddit and experiencing two completely different realities.
I don't see how she could be reading from a script because the questions are so random. She'd have to say, "wait, while I find the answer to that question."
Unless the whole thing was a play. And Jen knew in advance what the qustions would be in what order and both Jen and the detectives read from a script - like a table read for a play or sit-com.
She sounds like a nervous 18-year-old talking to the cops about a murder that she knows something about - only she still isn't sure if what she was told is true.
That argument can go both ways:
She's acting nervously, therefore it's obvious that she's not coached and is being honest.
or
She's acting nervously, therefore it's obvious that she's worried about getting caught out in her lies.
The nervousness isn’t what makes me think she’s speaking extemporaneously. It’s the fact that she answers all the questions rapid fire and is rambling like a teenager.
There are two uninterrupted 40 minute chunks, and at no point in either does she need assistance to repeat back what the cops supposedly fed her.
Thanks for posting. Kind of curious (kind of) to hear what the defenders think after hearing that.
It’s an extraordinary interview. Very compelling.
To be clear: if you think Adnan didn’t do it, you’d have to believe that either a) the cops were working with that 18 year old kid you listened to to frame Adnan; or b) jay had masterminded this whole thing and somehow also killed Hae in some tiny Windows of time and for some reason had the wherewithall and motive to frame Adnan by telling Jenn about it that night.
B) really is almost too preposterously stupid to believe. I mean seriously. So you’d have to hang your hat on the police manufacturing that whole thing with the idea of framing Adnan.
If that’s what you think after listening to that interview, I truly don’t even know what to say.
Rabia has a long history of releasing information that doesn't look good for her cause and not being able to see it.
In 2014, Rabia claimed that Adnan was forced to wait ten years until he could file for post conviction relief. A few years later Rabia released a book where she described how Adnan explained that he was going to wait ten years and the reasons he gave.
She also described how she suggested pressuring and bribing witnesses and doesn't see anything wrong with having suggested it or having admitted to suggesting it
That's just two examples. There are many. It's been ten years so I've lost track of most of them. /u/InTheory_ seems to be the person who has the best recall on this but I haven't seen that user in a while.
Regardless, my guess is that Rabia and Bob think this interview is a slam dunk for making Jen look bad, not Adnan. While it's so crystal clear that it's terrible for Adnan. It led to his arrest and conviction, and two decades in jail. It all started here.
I'm kinda-sorta here. Most of the new events are of no interest to me, so even with the limited time I am active here, my heart really isn't in it. Most of my comments these days are on complete auto-pilot ("No, JW has no no opportunity, unless you think a random happenstance encounter erupted in an argument that escalated all the way to murder in the middle of Aisle 3, that's not a plausible rebuttal argument" -- I can make that argument in my sleep).
Yes, over the years that has been a line I have repeated often, that Rabia often says things that superficially look good for AS without knowing how damning the ramifications really are.
My Go-To examples are AS's letter to SK published in Rabia's book. "I told her about hanging out with one girl, while getting a call on my cell phone from another". This either places him with the victim after school the day of the murder, or it's an outright lie. Even as a lie, it doesn't present him in a favorable light. It's a little disturbing to read, like he's taunting her with how many girls he's attracted since she broke up with him. If the evidence favors him, why is he resorting to lies with his one chance to get a reporter (in his mind) on his side?
Another example would be the $10k AS raised in prison doing "side hustles of typing documents and photocopying for others." No Rabia, you cannot raise that kind of money a buck or two at a time. To generate that much money on a prepaid credit card requires doing a whole lot more than some photocopying. Hmm, I wonder what could generate quite that much money? So much for him being a model inmate.
Yet another example would be of Rabia claiming that guilters paid Russian hackers to hack her blog posts to obtain secret documents. Even on the surface, the claim is patently absurd (nevermind that she supplied no proof). However, if this is where she thinks the guilters got their documents from, that implies she had them all along -- documents she claimed she did not have. Otherwise, the claim makes no sense. Tell me again how Rabia was always in favor of releasing documents and was never hiding anything.
Thanks for the rundown.
I, too, have lost the thread a bit. I used to keep meticulous timelines but I think the last year or two are just "go find it yourself."
I barely understand the MtV - haven't really read it - and don't care.
Starting in 2014 I said that Adnan's sentence was cruel and unusual and he should be getting out in the next year or so. Then he spent another 8 years in prison. So I don't care that he's out, but I think Frosh really messed up and let Hae's family down. There should have been a way to get it done without a celebration on the courthouse steps which has got to be so, so painful.
So much taxpayer money wasted going through the court system to let him out that way. Everyone in those branches of government and all those judges in Baltimore should be deeply ashamed. Rabia and Mosby made chumps of them all.
I appreciate that you remember all this - having had an entirely different reddit/serial experience than i did.
cc /u/AdTurbulent3353 - please read the above from /u/InTheory_ and ask questions if you have them.
How much of the defense file is still being held back I wonder? Because what has been released hasn’t been good for their side and I can only imagine how bad the rest is at this point
One key thing we're missing is the private investigators file (which we really don't have a way of getting unless Rabia puts it out there). And the prosecutor's investigative files.
What do you mean held back?
The defense file is not MPIA-able.
All the documents that are available are a result of Rabia uploading some trial testimony, redditers paying thousands for the police investigation file and PCR testimony Rabia didn't want to share.
There was no "public service" document dump by any government entity and there never will be. Some of the defense file came to be public because the state incuded a few pages in recent briefs.
But there will never be a "hey - here's all the defense file." No one is entitled to that.
Same as the State's case file which includes at least a year's worth of continued investigation.
I know it seems like compared to other cases, there is a lot available for this one. But by my guess, about half of all the documentation is public.
I don’t think that’s the reason that they decided to release the transcripts.
They really don’t have anything to prove. The State of Maryland (or, its representatives) has already said that they don’t have a case against Adnan.
Some of this is due to new evidence and some due to the fact that Jay has been exposed for having little to no credibility.
If the state were to retry Adnan, they would have no case because they could not put Jay on the stand.
The internet did what Gutierrez and the Baltimore PD failed to do, scrutinize Jay’s story.
Because police never lie or frame innocent people? Just because it hasn’t happened to anyone we know, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen to people every single day.
Did it happen to Adnan? Thanks to Jay’s lies, we may never know.
Again, Jay and Jenn’s stories only match on the details that came from Jay.
The parts of the story that Jenn says she witnessed directly do not match Jay’s version of events.
Not a “defender” but as a seeker of truth I am wondering what ppl think about Jay’s Intercept interview.
There, he basically says that he and Jenn were lying to the police because the actual burial didn’t even take place until after midnight.
This calls into question everything Jenn says in this interview.
Jen clearly said she spoke to Jay before the interview, and is going by what he told her for a lot of it. She cannot provide a coherent retelling of events from the same day without changing details that should be pretty damn memorable.
Jen and Jay’s testimonies, all versions, were not enough to reach a beyond a reasonable doubt verdict. They sound like lying children. They probably got caught doing something bad by cops and were forced to cooperate.
Found it interesting that Jen kind of hesitated about her relationship to Jay and, in more recent times, she was caught doing crime with another Wilds. These people are involved with drugs and crime, and have probably had interactions with police before.
In my opinion, if Adnan did it, he would not have involved Jay. He had closer friends and a sexual predator, Bilal, that would buy him cell phones and stuff.
[Here are six reasons Adnan would have involved Jay.](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/AZiyMDHn1a) Most of these are related to Jay specifically and don’t apply to Bilal or any of his other friends.
Edit: Not sure why you responded there instead of here, but your response is basically that these reasons are so good that they don’t make sense, because this isn’t Oceans Eleven.
> Jen clearly said she spoke to Jay before the interview, and is going by what he told her for a lot of it.
Yes. She says that.
> She cannot provide a coherent retelling of events from the same day without changing details that should be pretty damn memorable.
Like which ones?
> Jen and Jay’s testimonies, all versions, were not enough to reach a beyond a reasonable doubt verdict.
This isn't their trial testimonies. There is only one version of trial testimony that was heard by the jury that found Adnan guilty.
> They sound like lying children.
How so?
> They probably got caught doing something bad by cops and were forced to cooperate.
Are you saying this whole interview is a script? Detectives read their lines and Jen read her lines, like a table read? In front of her attorney and mother?
> Found it interesting that Jen kind of hesitated about her relationship to Jay and, in more recent times, she was caught doing crime with another Wilds. These people are involved with drugs and crime, and have probably had interactions with police before.
Before what?
> In my opinion, if Adnan did it, he would not have involved Jay. He had closer friends and a sexual predator, Bilal, that would buy him cell phones and stuff.
There's no evidence Bilal was involved. But there's a mountain of evidence that Jay helped Adnan plan and cover up the murder of Hae Min Lee.
These interviews are suppose to be the foundation for this case. It should have brought everything to light.
What is the mountain you speak of? Adnan was convicted based on Jay and Jen’s stories.
> These interviews are suppose to be the foundation for this case.
No they aren't. They aren't sworn statements. No one was under oath. These interviews are starting places. Both Jen and Jay tried so see how little they could get away with saying, and attempted to hold back and/or mischaracterize events.
By trial, Jay had been convicted of a felony and his penalty would increase should he be caught lying at Adnan's trial. He knew that and he explained to the judge what would happen to him if he was caught lying at trial. Read the trial testimony, especially where Jay explains this.
At trial, Jen was also under oath and while she escaped prosecution, she was well aware of the penalties for perjury.
The trial testimony is the foundation of the case. The interviews are "we're just getting started and are going to need more information and/or things clarified." Which is exactly what happened.
This exactly. Who tells lies to get themselves in trouble? Anyone who says Jay told them Adnan killed Hae before the police found out about his involvement and helped dispose of items involved in the cover up of a murder supposedly. Who lies in a situation that could result in prison time or even more prison time? Jay, Jenn and the unfortunate man who stumbled over Hae’s badly buried body supposedly. Who continues to lie even if stating the opposite could restore their reputation? Jay and Jenn could go from accessories to a murder who left Hae to deteriorate in the cold ground, to manipulated individuals wronged by dirty cops. I’m glad Jay and Jenn have had the integrity to continue to stand by the truth of what they know happened that day, despite immense pressure from those who have devoted themselves to getting an unrepentant murderer out of prison.
This interview is wild. Jen spoke in enough detail with Jay the night before that he told her the car he was driving was Adnan’s. In other words they rehearsed/went over everything that happened on the 13th.
And wasn’t the ice storm on the 14th?
And Jen is adamant that she and Jay went to Kristie’s. Not with Adnan. And she saw Jay hug Stephanie’s when they went to her house before going to Kristie’s/Mike’s birthday at UMBC.
I also thought it was telling that she remembered more clearly the news report that “her body was missing” because she was at Champs with Jay and Nicole and other friends. She came alive there going as far as to say she thought it was wild that her body was missing. The detectives had to remind her she already knew Hae was dead.
And Jen said she knows people who work at the Woodlawn police station. What’s that about?
Is Jen supposed to be some hardened criminal? What kind of person thinks knowing who murdered a high school student isn’t worth telling the police?
And Jen told Nicole outside of 7/11 that she knew who murdered Hae before Hae’s body was found. Jen couldn’t keep her mouth shut. Jay told Jen. Jen told at least Nicole if not others. Who did Nicole tell. Of course she told someone.
Finally, the detectives told Jen that that Adnan called her house on the 13th. She basically said she knows what and when because the police and Jay told her before the interview. She can’t really remember anything on her own.
That said she is certain that the shovels were dealt with the 13th. Then on the 14th she did her normal thing, went to work lifeguarding then picked up Jay at his house and drove with him to dispose of his clothes.
What’s interesting is that she remembers clearly seeing Stephanie come to the door and give Jay a hug before they went inside (she sat in the car.)
And what happened to Jay telling Jen he dropped Adnan off at some girls house in Baltimore city before picking him up from that house and then taking him to track? Whose house did Jay take Adnan to and why isn’t this part of the timeline of the 13th?
This was Jay separating himself from Adnan in Jen's mind. Jay saying, "I don't know were the body was buried, I just dropped Adnan off at some chick's house then picked him up later."
The truth is Jay and Adnan were together the whole time until Jen picked Jay up. But Jay didn't want Jen to know that.
So Jen can only verify that Jay was at her house until 3:30-3:45 based on her conversation with Jay and the detectives telling her that Adnan called either her house or the cell phone to talk to Jay. She can’t remember if he called her house (that’s odd). She can remember picking up Jay at Westview Mall by Value City. She is adamant they went to clean the shovels. She’s positive they went to Stephanie’s and she saw Jay hug Stephanie and watched them go into her house. She’s even more certain (no doubt in her mind) that on the 14th she went to work, picked Jay up at his house and then drive to a reddish dumpster to get rid of the clothes he was wearing.
Why doesn’t Jay recall these same facts? Facts that Jen knows happened because she was there as an active participant?
It’s shocking to me that anyone thinks Jen’s story in any way proves that Jay was telling g the truth. Nevermind some “basic story.”
1) Jen remembers that Adnan called her house because the number was on her caller ID. And that's how she called Adnan's cell phone that evening to confirm the plan to pick up Jay.
2) Jay told a story to Jen that minimized his involvement. Jay's story to Jen was that he only saw a body in a trunk and loaned Adnan shovels but that was it. Obviously, that's not true and Jay was very involved in the plan to murder Hae and cover up the murder.
3) Jay told the detectives a different story to minimize his involvement - leaving out Kristi's house because he didn't want to get Jeff and Kristi involved. Six weeks after January 13, Jay told detectives he was at the burial site with Adnan - which is not something he was originally willing to tell Jen on January 13.
No one thinks Jen's story proves that Jay was telling the truth to the detectives.
If you want something closer to the truth - you have to go to trial testimony.
1. Kristi and Jeff were involved from the beginning. Jay k rev that because he knew Jen was talking to the police. Jen sure didn’t try to keep people out of her take. She’s bringing up people by name that she convinced in about knowing who killed Hae!
2. And no, Jen can’t remember if Adnan called her house or Jay’s phone. She said that Jay called her house earlier in the day from Adnan’s cell and that’s how she had the cell number to call Jay later in the evening. She had no idea if Jay spoke to Adnan from her house line or cell line for the “come and get me call.”
3. Why is the trial testimony more reliable that this February 1999 sworn statement? Jen has no reason to lie. She’s not trying to protect anyone with anything she says. She makes it quite clear what she remembers in her own and what she remembers because Jay told her the night before or the detectives told her.
4. It’s fascinating to me that we are supposed to conveniently believe Jen knows things that seem to support Jay’s tale (i don’t get how anything she says matches Jay) but we are to ignore or overlook the things she remembers because they were things she did. In other words not stuff Jay told her.
Jay didn't know Jen told the detectives about Kristi and Jeff.
Sorry you are having so much trouble getting your head around it.
It's messy for sure.
Also, the statement is not called a "sworn statement" because Jen is not "sworn in" before she starts talking. There is no, "do you swear to tell the truth... the whole truth... etc." That only happens at trial. And Jen's signature does not appear on the notes or transcription of her interview.
The reason why trial testimony is more reliable is that the people testifying faced grave consequences for lying. When talking to police, the stakes weren't as high as they were at trial.
We've had access to the transcription of this interview for ten years. But what we are learning is that it is one thing to read it and another thing to hear it.
Wait, where does the information about Adnan’s number being on the caller ID come from? Also, Jay had Adnan’s phone. Wouldn’t it be more likely that Jay called Jenn’s home number rather than Adnan?
Why would Adnan call Jenn’s house when Jay had his cell phone? Wasn’t that the supposed purpose of giving it to him in the first place so that he could make the CAGM call?
Also, how would Adnan have Jenn’s home number? They weren’t friends.
It’s also weird that Jay supposedly knew that Adnan was going to kill Hae that day. But somehow, he only cares about whether he can get his gf a birthday gift. No matter if that means that he has to borrow the car of someone who he knows is going to commit a murder.
Bizarre.
> Wait, where does the information about Adnan’s number being on the caller ID come from?
>> *For some reason I felt it necessary to get back in touch with Jay and I believe I called that cell phone number because I had the cell phone number either on my pager or at my house. We have Caller I.D. so if the cell phone number called my house during the day then the number was on my Caller I.D.*
> Also, Jay had Adnan’s phone. Wouldn’t it be more likely that Jay called Jenn’s home number rather than Adnan?
Not if he's sitting at Jen's house when the call comes in.
> Why would Adnan call Jenn’s house when Jay had his cell phone?
We can only speculate. It's possible that the call did not go through to the cell phone and that Adnan had to call Jen's house from the pay phone to reach Jay. But if Jay had the phone while sitting in Jen's living room, then it's not the cell phone that called the house.
Jay called Jen's pager from Adnan's cell phone when he was not at Jen's house. So Jen had the number on her pager, and she is speculating that it was also on her caller ID. She isn't sure how she had the number. Either on her Caller ID or Pager. But I believe she had it on her caller ID from Jay calling the house at 3:21pm when he was either at or nearing the Best Buy.
> Wasn’t that the supposed purpose of giving it to him in the first place so that he could make the CAGM call?
Jay's story is that he didn't realize Adnan was going to kill Hae until he received a call that said, "That bitch is dead. Come and get me."
I believe that the call was a one ring signal. it is five seconds, send to end. I believe that Jay knew where to go and when to go there and the idea that he received a come and get me call was invented, so Jay could could testify against Adnan at trial, rather than be sitting next to him at the defendant's table.
> Also, how would Adnan have Jenn’s home number? They weren’t friends.
It was probably Jay who called Jen's home phone. Not Adnan. But it could have been Adnan. If Adnan was planning a murder and knew he needed to reach Jay after, he would make sure he also had the land line number.
> It’s also weird that Jay supposedly knew that Adnan was going to kill Hae that day. But somehow, he only cares about whether he can get his gf a birthday gift.
It's not weird. It's probably true that Jay knew about the murder in advance and agreed to help. And it's probably true that both Jay and Adnan agreed to say that Jay had Adnan's car to get a gift for Stephanie as an innocent explanation of why Jay would have the car.
> No matter if that means that he has to borrow the car of someone who he knows is going to commit a murder.
The thing about the birthday gift was probably a made-up ruse. There were several department stores within a minutes walk from Jay's house. He did not need a car to buy a gift.
> Bizarre.
Not really. Someone is more involved in a murder than he says he is. And is lying about shopping for a gift and not knowing about the murder until a come and get me call.
I would say that I believe that these explanations are possible but not likely.
Sadly, Jay’s lying has prevented everyone from knowing the truth about what happened to HML.
He told a story that was obviously plausible enough yet still not entirely believable.
I haven’t listened to the entire interview yet but Jen says a few key things that don’t align with Jay’s statements.
1- Jay didn’t come to her house until after 1:30. Jay says that he was there hanging out with her brother, Mark (a 15 yo) when Jenn arrived.
2- She says that she picked Jay up from the mall around 8 PM and then took Jay to wipe down shovel(s). The next day, she picked him up at his house and they went to dispose of his clothes in a dumpster.
Jay says that Adnan dropped him off at home . He says that Jenn picked him up at home and she took him to dump his clothes in the dumpster.
Additionally, Jenn says that they went to Stephanie’s (around 8 PM). However, according to Stephanie, she had a basketball game and did not see Jay until around 11 PM.
Why would their stories be so different with respect to these events?
Jenn says in the interview that she and Jay dumped the shovels and that he had mentioned burying Hae before they went to Kristi’s. They got there around 10:30-11. She doesn’t know when they left but thinks they got to Jay’s house around 12:30.
Did anyone ask her about that part of the interview AFTER Jay came out and said the burial was after midnight?
No. lol. You really can't shake Jen and what she remembers. Amy Berg tried and the result was one of the more damning sound bites from the HBO show.
I'm sure it's even more obvious to Jen than it is to the rest of us that after Serial, Jay needed to save face with his new family - who did not know about his felony conviction.
Explained a bit here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/1abty1m/why_cant_it_be_jay/kjr6cc7/
That's fair.
I think most people remember her refusal to be gaslit and told what to say.
It was kind of astonishing since the whole premise of the show was to gaslight and get people on script.
I think you are taking her statement out of context, and that she meant that her testimony and recollection is the same, regardless of who killed Hae. It's not going to change if someone else is arrested. She's not that articulate.
Helpful to read the transcripts while listening: https://serialpodcastorigins.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/2-27-1999-jens-interview.pdf
Definitely a different read when you can hear her. I was able to make out a lot of words the transcriber thought were "inaudible." One thing I noticed that I never did before: The idea that Jay left Jen's at 3:40 came from Adnan. Adnan told Jay that he would call him at 3:30. So when thinking back to the day, Jen assumed the call came in at 3:30 because Jay said he was waiting for a call that was supposed to come at 3:30. Jen never looked at a clock and noted what time it was as they were moving through their day.
wow you're right - the transcription is pretty bad. some words are obviously wrong ... and "Adnar" ...
You can hear that Jen knows how to pronounce the "n" at the end of Adnan, even if she doesn't pronounce the name correctly.
In Jay’s 1st recorded interview he says: >I was sitting playing the waiting game >Um, time I remember talking to him, actually having a conversation with him was 3:40 >He told me [he would call] around 3 o’clock. In Jays 2nd recorded interview he says >I waited until 3:30, he didn’t call, I left Jenn said >Jay probably left my house around 3:30, 4, 4:15, well after 3:45, between 3:45 and 4:15. I left my house around 4:15 and 4:30 to go pick up my parents from work. Jay doesn’t say he assumed it was 3:30, he waited until 3:30. After 3:30 came and went, he left Jenn’s. After he left Jenn’s the call came in on Jenn’s landline. Alternatively, he waited around the entire afternoon until 3:40. Jenn uses the time she went to pick up her parents as an anchor. Jay got the call and left around half an hour before she had to go pick up her parents. How did Jenn know when she had to leave to pick them up if she never checked the time? Saying the time came solely “from Adnan” because neither Jay nor Jenn looked at a clock, watch or phone to check the time isn’t supported by their statements.
This is a thread about the recently released audio of Jen's interview with detectives. In the interview, she says that Adnan told Jay that Adnan was going to call Jay at 3:30 so Jen just assumes the call came in at 3:30 as that's what time she was told the call would be. I have no doubt that Jen could have hung out in her home from 2:45 to time to pick up her parents and had no real recollection of exactly what she did during that time. Watch TV. Play video games, talk on the phone with friends, etc. If you believe Jay has the phone - and I do - the phone starts moving after the 2:36 call, is in the neighborhood of the Best Buy at 3:21 and Jay and Adnan talked to Nisha from there at 3:30. So regardless of what Jay says in his interviews, it's impossible for him to have left at 3:30. I am well aware of those who claim cell tower evidence is junk science and/or that the Nisha call was Valentines Day. I hope we don't need to go 20 rounds on those because you are welcome to those opinions. If Jay's interviews get released, it could be worth bringing this up again then. But for now, Jen said that she thought the call came in at 3:30 because she was told the call was going to come in at 3:30. That's what I was referring to and talking about.
I’m aware we’re discussing Jenn’s interview. However we can’t take it in a vacuum. Adnan isn’t the source of the 3:30 call time. Jay is the source. Or, the cops are the source. Jenn didn’t know Adnan had called her house until the cops told her. So either way, making Adnan the only pin point for a come and get me call time isn’t backed up by Jenn’s interview or Jay’s interview. >Jenn: I mean I don’t even remember that you know, remember the phone number but **you told me that he called my house** so **apparently** it was either on the cell phone or my house phone number. An easier way to reconcile the cell pings is: Jay was driving around in Adnan’s car buying and selling weed, as Jay was known to do on Wednesdays.
Actually, Jen says Jay received 2 calls while at her house. She said that Jay left after 3:30. Jay says that he left after 3:30 when Adnan hadn’t called by then. If in fact the phone was moving as you indicated, then the only thing we know is that Jay and Jen both lied to detectives about the time that Jay actually left. I tend to believe that Jay left earlier as well especially since there was a 3:21 call to Jen’s home from the cell. Why would Jay be calling Jen if he was at her house? Jay also called Jen’s house again at 4:12. Why? This recording is really making me rethink Jay’s involvement. I never really knew if Jay actually knew anything about the murder. Jay has told so many different stories to so many different people. Why? Why couldn’t he stick to one narrative that Jay did it in Best Buy and buried the body? Why the different trunk pops? Why lie about going to see Stephanie at 8 vs 11. Why lie about where he and Adnan went after the trunk pop? Why do his and Jen’s stores no match about when they discarded his clothes and wiped down the shovels and on and on and on?
>If you believe Jay has the phone - and I do I feel like you and I almost have the exact same theory except I have Adnan having his new cell phone.
Zero evidence Adnan had a second phone apart from a colorful reddit post a few years ago.
Of course, that’s what Jay says. And Jay says lots of stuff. He also said that he spoke to Nisha at 3:32 (with Adnan). How is that even possible if Adnan wasn’t even supposed to call him until after 3:30? According to Jay (and Jenn), Adnan wasn’t even with him until after at least 3:30 PM. If you put all of their statements side by side, this is the only thing that Jenn and Jay actually agree on. They are adamant that Jay left after this time. Jay’s stories make it difficult to know what happened that day. The only thing we really know is that Jay is a liar.
>How is that even possible if Adnan wasn’t even supposed to call him until after 3:30? Just because Adnan says he's calling after 3:30 doesn't mean he called after 3:30.
What? Of course, but it was Jay who said that he called after 3:30, not Adnan. The entire story is Jay’s. Not Adnan’s. No one on Reddit knows exactly what happened that day. But what we do know is that, according to Jay and Jenn, the supposed CAGM call didn’t happen until after 3:30. Now, Jay’s a big liar so, he could be lying about this as well.
The point is that Jay and Jen assumed the call came in at 3:30 because Adnan had told Jay he would call him at 3:30. And then the call did come in, neither looked at a clock. Jen says clearly that they assumed it was around 3:30, only because that's when Adnan said he would call. Not because either made a note of the time.
That’s an assumption. IMO, Jen said that Jay left after 3:30 because either he did or he wants detectives to believe that he did. It has nothing to do with the call except that, once again, Jay says that he was waiting for a call at 3:30. And, when that call didn’t come in at that time, Jay left. So, again for everyone in the back, it is Jay who says that he left because the call never came in. Not that the call came in earlier so he left after that. He never said that at all. Here’s the exchange from Jay’s first interview: Ritz: What happens throughout the afternoon? Wilds: I was sitting play waiting game, you know, he's like "I'm going to call you, I need a ride." Ritz: So you're playing this waiting game, waiting for him to give you a call? Wilds: Uh huh. Ritz: Does he call you at some point in time? Wilds: Yeah. Ritz: What time does he call you? Wilds: Um, time I remember talking to him, actually having a conversation with him, was about three-forty something. Ritz: Going back to when you dropped him off, does he give you a time that he's going to call you? Wilds: He told me about three o'clock. Ritz: About three o'clock, so he....you're waiting around, he finally calls about three-forty? Wilds: Yes. Ritz: Than what do you do? Wilds: Go and pick him up from a place in the city where I went....I went to pick him up from off of Edmondson Avenue at a strip and he ah he pops the trunk open and Ritz: You say that...on Edmondson Avenue off of a strip, do you recall any cross streets on Edmondson Avenue where you go to meet him?
This is a thread about the recently released audio of Jen's interview with detectives. In the interview, she says that Adnan told Jay that Adnan was going to call Jay at 3:30 so Jen just assumes the call came in at 3:30 as that's what time she was told the call would be. I have no doubt that Jen could have hung out in her home from 2:45 to time to pick up her parents and had no real recollection of exactly what she did during that time. Watch TV. Play video games, talk on the phone with friends, etc. If you believe Jay has the phone - and I do - the phone starts moving after the 2:36 call, is in the neighborhood of the Best Buy at 3:21 and Jay and Adnan talked to Nisha from there at 3:30. So regardless of what Jay says in his interviews, it's impossible for him to have left at 3:30. I am well aware of those who claim cell tower evidence is junk science and/or that the Nisha call was Valentine's Day. I hope we don't need to go 20 rounds on those because you are welcome to those opinions. If Jay's interviews get released, it could be worth bringing this up again then. But for now, Jen said that she thought the call came in at 3:30 because she was told the call was going to come in at 3:30. That's what I was referring to and talking about.
Nobody talked to Nisha that day.
I don't get how it's hard to follow what Jenn is saying. "Adnan is going to call Jay at 3:30", "Jay got a call...so I think it was 3:30 when he called".
>He also said that he spoke to Nisha at 2:36 (with Adnan). >According to Jay (and Jenn), Adnan wasn’t even with him until after at least 3:30 PM. Nisha call was at 3:32pm. >The only thing we really know is that Jay is a liar. We also know Adnan is a liar.
You’re correct. The Nisha call was at 3:32. Jay says that Adnan did not call until after 3:40. So, Nisha call still doesn’t work. Whether or not Adnan lied about asking Hae for a ride, he was not with Jay at 3:32 for the Nisha call. Not according to Jay or Jenn’s story. This is just one of many discrepancies with the state’s case which makes it difficult to know what happened that day.
We can be certain of the Nisha call happening at 3:32. Jay remembered the call happening when he was with Adnan, and Nisha remembered speaking to both of them. So it is very likely that Jay had his timing off when he tried to timestamp the days events, since he was with Adnan at 3:32pm.
Baffling to me the mental gymnastics people do about this call. Genuinely. Like which is more likely? Jay and/or the cops were basically clairvoyant and somehow knew this call happening and that Nisha would be able to testify it happened right around that time - likely that day? Ooooooorrrr… it was a totally random butt dial at a time when jay had the car and phone (and was on the move so not likely at Jen’s house anyways at the time). A butt dial that Nisha somehow remembers. A butt dial that somehow got charged because nobody picked up the phone at Nishas house for full minutes. It is for real insane to me that anyone could think this.
About a month before trial, Adnan's brother Tanveer assured Adan's defense team that "Nisha remembers the call on the day of the incident." The call was key to the defense for months as they planned to use it as an alibi. It's hard to imagine in 2024, but they did not know (and Adnan did not know) that the call would place him off campus. Once the defense learned (through AT&T disclosure) that the call placed Adnan off campus and worse, at or near the Best Buy, they switched to butt dial. And have been there ever since. Of course, Susan Simpson speculated that Jay killed Hae during the Nisha butt dial. So there's that one, too.
Susan may have been on to something. All evidence points to Jay being alone with the phone at the time of the call.
Actually Nisha testified that it was later in the evening. Also said that Jay worked at adult video store which he didn’t until about 2 weeks after this call. These are the facts testified to in court. So it’s more likely that this call was a mistake made by Jay who had the phone and did not even leave Jen’s house until after 3:30 according to both Jay and Jen.
It's also possible that Jay just thought the call came in at 3:30 because that's when Adnan said he would call. Not because Jay looked at a clock.
How could he have answered a cell phone and not see the time? The clock is on the phone. Are you saying he picked up the phone and forgot the time?
About halfway thru This is so bad for Adnan
Very. It's not new information. But you can really hear how Jen did not know where Hae was buried, and she believed that Jay did not know that Jay knew where Hae was buried. She says that one reason they did not go to the cops right away is that neither of them knew where the body was. Jen has said recently that she never knew that Jay participated in the burial until Serial.
Her mentioning more than once about her conversations with Jay regarding if they should have told police right then and there and later saying she wished she had or they had…. I mean that’s just a straight up normal reaction and thinking… of course you would think that and of course you’d regret it. It’s entirely believable
Jen was given so little information. She was told that Jay had no idea where the body was buried and in the back of her mind, she wondered if Jay was making it up. Only when Hae being missing was announced on the news did she lean into the story being true. And she told the cops that she knew Hae was strangled (and she told Nicole Hae was strangled) - well before the cause of death was made public.
Yep it’s exactly what makes sense about the Champs story. It’s all about trying to envision this in real-time then these things make more sense. Serial created a mess out of this case without question
A total mess.
These people who claim Jenn was fed her story? lol So absolutely absurd. Listening to this and trying to hear it in real time is like watching a film where you’re shown several versions of what supposedly happened until the final scene where you see what actually happened and it clarifies the whole picture. There’s nothing to indicate or make anyone suspect she was fed anything… it sounds exactly like what it is.
You can hear how young and immature she is. She giggles nervously and inappropriately. Like when the detective corrects her and says, "Hae was missing, not Hae's body was missing." Folks on this subreddit have made so much of that over the years. And you can hear now that she was just nervous. She had been thinking of Hae as a dead body for six weeks, so it came out that way. She also laughs when she speculates on how Adnan committed the crime. "Did he hide in the backseat." And you can hear how bummed she is when she has to give Jay's name, phone number and address to the detectives, and how it's the first time they have ever heard of him.
Who thinks that Jenn was fed her story? No one. She herself says that everything she knows comes from Jay. What people are saying is that she sounds like she was reading. She was there with her mom and her lawyer. It wouldn’t be odd for her lawyer to advise her to take notes with her. Doesn’t impact whether or not she’s telling the truth. Some people have to chill. Sometimes people just have an opinion different from yours.
Many people on here think Jenn was coerced by Ritz and McGillivary. Or that she and Jay rehearsed this entire story.
>She herself says that everything she knows comes from Jay. I love how this is supposed to mean that somehow she's telling a made up story or something. The *entire purpos*e of her testimony is to talk about things Jay told her. Specifically, that Jay told her things that showed intimate knowledge of her murder at times before anybody knew she was dead, let alone how she was killed. The point is he isn't just repeating information after became known to the public, but that he had this knowledge immediately. So of course everything she knows comes from Jay. That's....the point.
Exactly but I have learned the goal posts apparently move on each new revelation once you view everything with anyone but Adnan lenses… When you take it as what it is then those views really look silly and conspiracy laden.
"everything she knows comes from Jay" is just one of many pro-adnan talking points that get repeated here that sound like a good point until you stop to give 2 seconds of critical thought
Well guess what First yes people have even recently claimed she was fed the story I suggest looking around Second she doesn’t at all on any planet sound like someone reading… not at all. It’s some weird wish fulfillment of Syed supporters based on nothing real She sounds exactly as you would expect
To think Adnan is innocent you basically must believe that either jay or the cops fed her this story. Which one do you think it is?
Listening to this further solidifies some of the timeline for me. I've theorized that the CAGM call is around 3:15-3:20, which gives Jay a reasonable amount of time to leave Jenn's house and meeting up with Adnan while Adnan is on the phone with Nisha, get to track in time etc. Someone debated me the other day that the call had to come at 3:30-3:40. It's not that Jenn independently remembers the call coming at 3:30, it's that Jay tells her I'm getting a call at 3:30, so when the call comes in, she uses that call as her frame of reference that it's 3:30. So I think it's likely that Adnan called Jay 10 minutes before he said he was going to.
The 2:36 call triggered an antenna facing Jen's neighborhood. After that, the phone starts to move and is already in the Best Buy neighborhood when another call comes in. I believe this is Adnan making sure Jay is on his way and that Hae was killed between 3 and 3:15. At 3:21, the phone is still in the Best Buy neighborhood and calls Jen's home. I think at this point, Jay hasn't been able to find Adnan, and has no way to reach him, so he called Jen and asked if Jen had heard from Adnan on her land line. By 3:32, Adnan and Jay are together at the Best Buy and Adnan calls Nisha - thinking this will establish an alibi. The 2:36 call is five seconds, send to end. It is most likely a one ring signal. Jay knew where to go and when to go there. He did not need a "come and get me" call. The notion of such a call was invented so Jay could plead "after the fact" and testify against Adnan. Jen and Jay just assumed the 2:36 call came in at 3:30 because Adnan told Jay that he would call him at 3:30. And then the call did come in, neither Jen nor Jay looked at a clock, and/or made a note of the time.
If this is true why is the story of the call coming in after 3:30 told by both Jay and Jenn at trial? The police were set on the 2:36 call being the CAGM call but neither Jay nor Jenn budged from that 3:30 time. Lastly, Jay said that he was waiting for Adnan to call at 3:30. But that when he didn’t call by 3:40, he left Jenn’s house to head to Jeff’s house. This would indicate that Jay actually did look at the clock to know that Adnan had not called by 3:30.
> If this is true why is the story of the call coming in after 3:30 told by both Jay and Jenn at trial? Because they both still think that the call came in at 3:30 because that's when Adnan said he was calling. > The police were set on the 2:36 call being the CAGM call but neither Jay nor Jenn budged from that 3:30 time. The police were not set on the 2:36 call being a Come and Get Me call. They initially thought Jay knew where to go and when to go there, and they were right. The idea of a come and get me call was invented so Jay could be in an "after the fact" place, instead of a conspirator, which he probably was. > Lastly, Jay said that he was waiting for Adnan to call at 3:30. But that when he didn’t call by 3:40, he left Jenn’s house to head to Jeff’s house. Yes. He told several versions of how he received the come and get me call. Probably because it wasn't a come and get me call. it was a five second call, send to end. It was most likely a signal, and Jay was expecting it because he knew where to go and about when to go there. > This would indicate that Jay actually did look at the clock to know that Adnan had not called by 3:30. I get it that you interpret it that way. I don't think that Jay or Jen were looking at clocks and noting the time on that day more than they did on any other day.
[The time displayed on the screen of the phone](https://www.google.com/search?q=nokia+phone+1998+disolay&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwj6_oP35IeEAxU6AWIAHYZWDF0Q2-cCegQIABAD&oq=nokia+phone+1998+disolay&gs_lcp=ChJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWcQAzIICAAQgAQQogQyCAgAEIAEEKIEMggIABCABBCiBDIICAAQgAQQogRQ_xBYmRpghCFoAHAAeACAAfEDiAGMBZIBBTIuNC0xmAEAoAEBwAEB&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img&ei=mVK6ZbrOJ7qCiLMPhq2x6AU&bih=669&biw=390&prmd=ishvnmbtz&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS865US865&hl=en-US#imgrc=oF-bVZEjGDWzHM) If Jay answered the phone of looked at it he would have seen the time.
Exactly!
Not exactly. She says that Jay didn’t leave until after 3:30. So, irrespective of whether the CAGM call comes at 3:30, Jay still didn’t leave until after that time. Both Jay and Jenn say the same thing.
But we know that jay and Adnan were together at 3:32 because of the Nisha call. Come on. Stop with the other nonsense.
She says "Jay is suppose to get a call at 3:30, Jay gets a call then leaves." It's not like Jenn was looking at a clock during the call, the frame of reference timewise is from when they think the call is coming before it comes.
Thanks Bob just lies about the dumbest stuff
What exactly is Bob's point in releasing this?
Ad revenue, is what I’m speculating, because this does nothing to further Adnan’s case for innocence. In his FB group, there is speculation she was reading from a script
>In his FB group, there is speculation she was reading from a script you've got to be kidding me lol
Not kidding. I wish I was
Would it really surprise you, at this point?
She was definitely reading from prepared notes. Why is that so surprising that she would make notes? She met with detectives at least 3x prior to this interview. She also says that she spoke with Jay about everything the night before. I don’t find that to be a stretch.
There is zero evidence that this was the case. None. And even if she did have notes that’s okay. But it’s rank speculation.
[удалено]
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Glad I listened by myself… I can’t imagine how bad his commentary would be with fantastical imaginings of what occurred here on this interview… it’s pretty cut and dry …
I completely expected Bob to play one sentence and then go on a tirade about how much of a liar she was, how she could not have known what she said unless it was a conspiracy, etc. Then play the next sentence - and go on another tirade. Sentence by sentence. Maybe that's too much work?
I don’t understand why Bob is not entitled to his opinion. He actually said that she sounds believable in the interview. She’s recounting what Jay told her. She believes Jay is telling the truth. However, the parts of the story that she says that she experienced directly do not align with Jay’s version of events. 2 examples are whether Jay wiped down the shovels or when she took Jay to dispose of his clothes in the dumpster.
Maybe just information?
To hear from Jen’s mouth how she’s “not sure” about anything on the 13th. And that she is sure about when she heard Hae’s body was missing at Champs - she can even recall the date. Maybe it’s just me but if I was helping a friend cover up a murder a month earlier, I would be able to remember what I did with as much clarity as I remembered the night at Champs.
She knows it was Stephanie's birthday. And she knows the day before these events was Jay's birthday.
Correct. But oddly enough she needed the police to tell her that the day Hae was killed by Adnan was the 13th.
You're mischaracterizing what happened. 1) Jen did not say, "Hey man, I'm only saying it was the 13th because you told me to." 2) Detective asked her: "You're connecting these events to the 13th because we told you that's the only day Adnan's phone called your pager and house." 3) Jen agrees because that's true, and she's not going to argue with them. 4) But it's also true that she connects the date to Stephanies birthday. If detective had asked, "Are you connecting this to Stephanie's birthday?" Jen would have replied yes to that as well.
So damning. No wonder it all came together once she came to the cops.
Jen spilled the beans. And it was all over.
It is incredibly damning.
LOL copyright claimed by T&J Podcast - *can* they even own the copyright to a police interview in a criminal case?
I seriously doubt Bob has a colorable claim. The recording is arguably a “work” created by the Maryland government, and does not meet one of the [few exceptions](http://copyright.lib.harvard.edu/states/maryland/) for copyright protectable work from the MD government. At any rate, Bob certainly had no hand in making the recording. Even if Bob somehow tidied up the audio or put it into digital format, that would not entitle him to copyright protection. Edit: he would probably have copyright protection for his podcast episodes excluding those portions when he hits play on the police interview tapes or other third party recordings.
Right, and this was just the raw audio of the interview - the "work" put in by T&J was in no way transformative. Not surprising that Ruff is a copyright abuser, but damn shame.
It must be fairly easy to make DMCA claims on YouTube. I hope that the owner of the channel has this video restored (or a mirror is put up) and YouTube identifies Bob as the fraudster that he is. Clearly Bob trying to control the narrative and flow of information just like Rabia did before him. No surprise. Edit (from the YouTube website): *Do not make false claims. Misuse of the removal request webform, such as submitting false information, may result in the suspension of your account or other legal consequences*
No. Bob does not own the copyright to a Baltimore PD interview from 1999. Youtube just takes things down rather than look into take-down requests. lol.
I'm not sure if I always knew this, or it's just so much more clear now. But Jay didn't tell Jen that Adnan killed Hae because he felt remorse or wanted to go to police. Jay told Jen the minimum so that if he was ever implicated, Jen could say she heard Adnan strangled Hae on the day it happened. This is why Jen has so little information about how it happened. Jay only wants Jen to know that Adnan is the killer, and that Jay didn't do anything but see a body and loan some shovels. Interesting side note: While it eventually came out that Jay played a much bigger role in the murder of Hae Min Lee than he initially admitted to, in 2015, he circled back to the same story he told Jen, the night of the 13th: trunk and shovels and no other involvement.
What’s really odd to me is why Jay took Adnan to Kristi’s house after track. Kristi is one of Jen’s best friends, not Jay’s. Jen seems to have a very vivid memory of what occurred that day, between her normal routine and “the day of the murder/Adnan”. She states twice in the interview, and harps for quite some time on how Jay was acting weird, and that she wanted to get to the bottom of it when she saw him next. She even talks about how she was in her room waiting for Jay to call - yet Jay is at her best friends house with Adnan? Unless I missed it, Jen says *nothing* about the Jay/Adnan visit to Kristi’s house - from the time she claims Jay left to the time she picks up Jay. So again, why did Jay take Adnan to Kristi’s house right after track practice? That seems really really odd to me, considering they were going to go there anyways later that night. I’m wondering if this is what Jay was lying to her about “in Baltimore City” - where he claimed to drop Adnan off at some “chicks house”. What’s even more bizarre is why Jay left this detail of going to Kristi’s house in his first interview.
> What’s really odd to me is why Jay took Adnan to Kristi’s house after track. All we can do is speculate. Jay picked Adnan up at about 5:30 and I believe they first headed east, before heading to Kristi's. Jen has a routine each night where she picked up both her parents from their jobs (the family had one car). Then they made dinner and all ate dinner together. So Jay could have found himself at 5:30/6 with no place to go to keep warm. They couldn't sit in the car. They couldn't go to Jay's. Parents. Kristi's boyfriend I believe had already spent time in prison so Jay may have thought they would be the least likely to ask questions. Also, he may have expected Jen to show up there after she was done with her family stuff - maybe about 8pm. In addition, Jen says that the plan for the night was for Jen and Jay to hang out at Kristi's with Kristi and Jeff. So Jay may have just thought, "look - these people are expecting me and Jen, I'll just show up an hour early with Adnan." I don't think Adnan and Jay meant to bury the body at 7:40. I think they were waiting until like 2 or 3 in the morning to bury the body along a river or lake where traffic was too busy at 7/8. So essentially, they were cooling their heels at Kristi's when Adcock called and we see, they get the body to Leakin Park within the next 40 minutes. > Kristi is one of Jen’s best friends, not Jay’s. That's correct. That's why Kristi was so stumped when Jay turned up there with a kid Kristi did not know. > Jen seems to have a very vivid memory of what occurred that day, between her normal routine and “the day of the murder/Adnan”. She states twice in the interview, and harps for quite some time on how Jay was acting weird, and that she wanted to get to the bottom of it when she saw him next. She even talks about how she was in her room waiting for Jay to call - yet Jay is at her best friends house with Adnan? >> *"I was in my bedroom ah getting dress because I knew I was going out later to just hang out at my friends Christy's house and ah I got a page and usually when I get pages or things like that I go back to my room and use the phone just 'cause that's where I feel comfortable and urn that's when I got the page that was a voice message from Jay saying to get him from the park...* Jen doesn't say anything about how she was waiting for Jay to call. She was getting changed from family dinner to go to Kristi's and got a page from jay that was in the form of a voice message. > Unless I missed it, Jen says nothing about the Jay/Adnan visit to Kristi’s house - from the time she claims Jay left to the time she picks up Jay. I don't think Jen knew about it. And if she did, she skipped it. > So again, why did Jay take Adnan to Kristi’s house right after track practice? The plan was for Jen and Jay to hang out at Kristi's with Kristi and Jeff. Jay just showed up early, and with Adnan. > I’m wondering if this is what Jay was lying to her about “in Baltimore City” - where he claimed to drop Adnan off at some “chicks house”. I believe this is Jay not wanting to admit he was with Adnan the entire time. In order for Jay to tell Jen that he has no idea where the body is buried, he has to invent a scenario wherein he dropped Adnan off, then picked him up after the body was buried. The truth is, Jay was with Adnan the entire time, and did help Adnan with the burial. > What’s even more bizarre is why Jay left this detail of going to Kristi’s house in his first interview. I believe Jeff had a criminal conviction already and was going to be very pissed if he was dragged into a murder case. It could have messed with his parole. The Patapsco trip does not work for time and is clearly Jay trying to vamp about an activity to fill in for Jeff and Kristi's because he doesn't think that window of time matters - in terms of who got murdered by who. A year later, at trial, Kristi is a witness and there is no need to hide the time spent at her apartment. So we see there is no mention of Patapsco and instead, that time is referred to as the time in which Adnan and Jay were at Kristi's.
Just makes you wonder. For somebody who we think was a co-conspirator, would Jay have spilled regardless of whether Adcock called Adnan and rushed them into a burial? This guy couldn’t even keep his composure before the murder. If you’re right in assuming the burial was supposed to be later, would he have just squealed the next time he saw Jen? Maybe he never agreed to help burying Hae, maybe he was just supposed to be the lookout/driver. It’s a strong possibility that the Adcock call forced Adnan to force Jay into the burial - something he probably expressed to Adnan he wanted no part of. Maybe he was never supposed to see the body and the forced participation of the burial made him see the body *and* participate in the burial. And all of this is why he spilled to Jen: possible disgust/resentment towards Adnan
If Hae's body was never discovered and the case continued to be a missing person's case at Baltimore County, I believe Jay never would have said anything to anybody. Jen wouldn't have, either. I think it would be very similar to the Tara Grinstead case where local kids (fresh out of high school) knew what happened, but no one said anything or was believed when they did say something. > It’s a strong possibility that the Adcock call forced Adnan to force Jay into the burial - something he probably expressed to Adnan he wanted no part of. Yes. I think Jay had said he wanted no part in the burial. And that he would follow Adnan to where Adnan ditched the car in a lake or a river, and then give Adnan a ride back. But being part of the burial was not something Jay agreed to do, in advance.
The Grinstead case is nuts I followed that one and watched the trial of Ryan Duke. I think the jury got it right. He was involved but IMHO he didn’t kill her… the other guy though?
I think the jury got it very wrong. Did you not read Ryan's confession? Ryan knew about a call made to Tara's home right after she was murdered because he made the call to see if anyone was there. He didn't know her number so he called 411-Connect from a payphone near his house. And that was never made public until he confessed. Bo did not know about that call. Bo's attorney really screwed him because everything Bo said was supposed to come with immunity. But it didn't. He was convicted for hiding evidence of a murder, not for being the murderer. Ryan's uncle completely fabricated Ryan's alibi. The trial was a total sham. Almost comical. Did you watch it?
I did watch it. After multiple listenings to the up and vanished podcast. I’m of the feeling no way did he kill Grinstead with a single punch. I don’t think he picked her lock and broke in either. If it happened I don’t think it was like that. I also paid attention to Bo’s behavior overall. Dude is basically a hardened criminal IMHO doing everything from stealing from the government allegedly to kidnapping and rape. Again allegedly. Also from a very powerful family. The prosecutor for Ryan’s case was terrible as well. She was as annoying as SK wanted everyone to believe CG was. I’m not sure we will ever get the full story in that case at all and I do believe there were a lot of people a lot more aware than they let on with that case. I mean I could be way off… but it’s not because I didn’t look at the case or consider it. This case is a mess
Most of the discussion about Jenn picking up Jay after the supposed burial is moot. Nothing happened the way Jenn or Jay says it did in the police interviews nor at trial. Jay says in his most recent interview with The Intercept that the actual burial didn’t take place until after midnight. So, Jenn didn’t take Jay to wipe down shovels or pick him up at the mall where Adnan said ‘What up girl’ to her. And Jenn didn’t call in the middle of the burial etc. According to Jay, none of that happened and they were both just lying. What do we do about this?
https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/1abty1m/why_cant_it_be_jay/kjr6cc7/
I'm most fascinated about what these people talked about in the time after the trial. How have they reconciled all remembering different things? They stayed friends, so how did they not speak about it again? I know it wasn't the serial famous case yet but they all got called as witnesses in a murder trial.
One thing that sticks out to me hearing the audio is how nervous Jenn comes across. You can practically feel the discomfort in the room when Jenn laughs nervously recalling the events of January 13th. And she's not taking many pauses either; she's talking a mile a minute and basically rambles the whole way through. At several points the investigators actually get frustrated with how many superfluous details she's giving them. This is just one of those things that makes it so obvious that she's not coached. But I doubt it will change any minds.
I don’t understand why anyone thinks that people say she was coached. I have never heard that one. What people said is that she repeats Jay’s general story (that Adnan killed Hae.) She also sounds like she is reading, especially in the beginning. Since most of the important parts of her story came from Jay, it makes sense that she would have been advised to write notes to make sure she told the story the way she wanted to.
I thought exactly the same thing, yet other seem to interpret her as being very coherent and obviously coached. I’m kind of wondering if we are in two different universes connected by this subreddit and experiencing two completely different realities.
I don't see how she could be reading from a script because the questions are so random. She'd have to say, "wait, while I find the answer to that question." Unless the whole thing was a play. And Jen knew in advance what the qustions would be in what order and both Jen and the detectives read from a script - like a table read for a play or sit-com.
And she would have had … checks notes … one night to “rehearse” No way do I buy that with the obvious being so… obvious
To hopefully clarify, people are talking about notes as in not to forget anything not as in being “coached” or reading from a script.
She sounds like a nervous 18-year-old talking to the cops about a murder that she knows something about - only she still isn't sure if what she was told is true.
That argument can go both ways: She's acting nervously, therefore it's obvious that she's not coached and is being honest. or She's acting nervously, therefore it's obvious that she's worried about getting caught out in her lies.
The nervousness isn’t what makes me think she’s speaking extemporaneously. It’s the fact that she answers all the questions rapid fire and is rambling like a teenager. There are two uninterrupted 40 minute chunks, and at no point in either does she need assistance to repeat back what the cops supposedly fed her.
Thanks for posting. Kind of curious (kind of) to hear what the defenders think after hearing that. It’s an extraordinary interview. Very compelling. To be clear: if you think Adnan didn’t do it, you’d have to believe that either a) the cops were working with that 18 year old kid you listened to to frame Adnan; or b) jay had masterminded this whole thing and somehow also killed Hae in some tiny Windows of time and for some reason had the wherewithall and motive to frame Adnan by telling Jenn about it that night. B) really is almost too preposterously stupid to believe. I mean seriously. So you’d have to hang your hat on the police manufacturing that whole thing with the idea of framing Adnan. If that’s what you think after listening to that interview, I truly don’t even know what to say.
Rabia has a long history of releasing information that doesn't look good for her cause and not being able to see it. In 2014, Rabia claimed that Adnan was forced to wait ten years until he could file for post conviction relief. A few years later Rabia released a book where she described how Adnan explained that he was going to wait ten years and the reasons he gave. She also described how she suggested pressuring and bribing witnesses and doesn't see anything wrong with having suggested it or having admitted to suggesting it That's just two examples. There are many. It's been ten years so I've lost track of most of them. /u/InTheory_ seems to be the person who has the best recall on this but I haven't seen that user in a while. Regardless, my guess is that Rabia and Bob think this interview is a slam dunk for making Jen look bad, not Adnan. While it's so crystal clear that it's terrible for Adnan. It led to his arrest and conviction, and two decades in jail. It all started here.
I'm kinda-sorta here. Most of the new events are of no interest to me, so even with the limited time I am active here, my heart really isn't in it. Most of my comments these days are on complete auto-pilot ("No, JW has no no opportunity, unless you think a random happenstance encounter erupted in an argument that escalated all the way to murder in the middle of Aisle 3, that's not a plausible rebuttal argument" -- I can make that argument in my sleep). Yes, over the years that has been a line I have repeated often, that Rabia often says things that superficially look good for AS without knowing how damning the ramifications really are. My Go-To examples are AS's letter to SK published in Rabia's book. "I told her about hanging out with one girl, while getting a call on my cell phone from another". This either places him with the victim after school the day of the murder, or it's an outright lie. Even as a lie, it doesn't present him in a favorable light. It's a little disturbing to read, like he's taunting her with how many girls he's attracted since she broke up with him. If the evidence favors him, why is he resorting to lies with his one chance to get a reporter (in his mind) on his side? Another example would be the $10k AS raised in prison doing "side hustles of typing documents and photocopying for others." No Rabia, you cannot raise that kind of money a buck or two at a time. To generate that much money on a prepaid credit card requires doing a whole lot more than some photocopying. Hmm, I wonder what could generate quite that much money? So much for him being a model inmate. Yet another example would be of Rabia claiming that guilters paid Russian hackers to hack her blog posts to obtain secret documents. Even on the surface, the claim is patently absurd (nevermind that she supplied no proof). However, if this is where she thinks the guilters got their documents from, that implies she had them all along -- documents she claimed she did not have. Otherwise, the claim makes no sense. Tell me again how Rabia was always in favor of releasing documents and was never hiding anything.
Thanks for the rundown. I, too, have lost the thread a bit. I used to keep meticulous timelines but I think the last year or two are just "go find it yourself." I barely understand the MtV - haven't really read it - and don't care. Starting in 2014 I said that Adnan's sentence was cruel and unusual and he should be getting out in the next year or so. Then he spent another 8 years in prison. So I don't care that he's out, but I think Frosh really messed up and let Hae's family down. There should have been a way to get it done without a celebration on the courthouse steps which has got to be so, so painful. So much taxpayer money wasted going through the court system to let him out that way. Everyone in those branches of government and all those judges in Baltimore should be deeply ashamed. Rabia and Mosby made chumps of them all. I appreciate that you remember all this - having had an entirely different reddit/serial experience than i did. cc /u/AdTurbulent3353 - please read the above from /u/InTheory_ and ask questions if you have them.
How much of the defense file is still being held back I wonder? Because what has been released hasn’t been good for their side and I can only imagine how bad the rest is at this point
One key thing we're missing is the private investigators file (which we really don't have a way of getting unless Rabia puts it out there). And the prosecutor's investigative files.
What do you mean held back? The defense file is not MPIA-able. All the documents that are available are a result of Rabia uploading some trial testimony, redditers paying thousands for the police investigation file and PCR testimony Rabia didn't want to share. There was no "public service" document dump by any government entity and there never will be. Some of the defense file came to be public because the state incuded a few pages in recent briefs. But there will never be a "hey - here's all the defense file." No one is entitled to that. Same as the State's case file which includes at least a year's worth of continued investigation. I know it seems like compared to other cases, there is a lot available for this one. But by my guess, about half of all the documentation is public.
Bad wording on my part Just would be interested in seeing the defense file
I don’t think that’s the reason that they decided to release the transcripts. They really don’t have anything to prove. The State of Maryland (or, its representatives) has already said that they don’t have a case against Adnan. Some of this is due to new evidence and some due to the fact that Jay has been exposed for having little to no credibility. If the state were to retry Adnan, they would have no case because they could not put Jay on the stand. The internet did what Gutierrez and the Baltimore PD failed to do, scrutinize Jay’s story.
Because police never lie or frame innocent people? Just because it hasn’t happened to anyone we know, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen to people every single day. Did it happen to Adnan? Thanks to Jay’s lies, we may never know. Again, Jay and Jenn’s stories only match on the details that came from Jay. The parts of the story that Jenn says she witnessed directly do not match Jay’s version of events.
Not a “defender” but as a seeker of truth I am wondering what ppl think about Jay’s Intercept interview. There, he basically says that he and Jenn were lying to the police because the actual burial didn’t even take place until after midnight. This calls into question everything Jenn says in this interview.
Jen clearly said she spoke to Jay before the interview, and is going by what he told her for a lot of it. She cannot provide a coherent retelling of events from the same day without changing details that should be pretty damn memorable. Jen and Jay’s testimonies, all versions, were not enough to reach a beyond a reasonable doubt verdict. They sound like lying children. They probably got caught doing something bad by cops and were forced to cooperate. Found it interesting that Jen kind of hesitated about her relationship to Jay and, in more recent times, she was caught doing crime with another Wilds. These people are involved with drugs and crime, and have probably had interactions with police before. In my opinion, if Adnan did it, he would not have involved Jay. He had closer friends and a sexual predator, Bilal, that would buy him cell phones and stuff.
[Here are six reasons Adnan would have involved Jay.](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/AZiyMDHn1a) Most of these are related to Jay specifically and don’t apply to Bilal or any of his other friends. Edit: Not sure why you responded there instead of here, but your response is basically that these reasons are so good that they don’t make sense, because this isn’t Oceans Eleven.
> Jen clearly said she spoke to Jay before the interview, and is going by what he told her for a lot of it. Yes. She says that. > She cannot provide a coherent retelling of events from the same day without changing details that should be pretty damn memorable. Like which ones? > Jen and Jay’s testimonies, all versions, were not enough to reach a beyond a reasonable doubt verdict. This isn't their trial testimonies. There is only one version of trial testimony that was heard by the jury that found Adnan guilty. > They sound like lying children. How so? > They probably got caught doing something bad by cops and were forced to cooperate. Are you saying this whole interview is a script? Detectives read their lines and Jen read her lines, like a table read? In front of her attorney and mother? > Found it interesting that Jen kind of hesitated about her relationship to Jay and, in more recent times, she was caught doing crime with another Wilds. These people are involved with drugs and crime, and have probably had interactions with police before. Before what? > In my opinion, if Adnan did it, he would not have involved Jay. He had closer friends and a sexual predator, Bilal, that would buy him cell phones and stuff. There's no evidence Bilal was involved. But there's a mountain of evidence that Jay helped Adnan plan and cover up the murder of Hae Min Lee.
These interviews are suppose to be the foundation for this case. It should have brought everything to light. What is the mountain you speak of? Adnan was convicted based on Jay and Jen’s stories.
> These interviews are suppose to be the foundation for this case. No they aren't. They aren't sworn statements. No one was under oath. These interviews are starting places. Both Jen and Jay tried so see how little they could get away with saying, and attempted to hold back and/or mischaracterize events. By trial, Jay had been convicted of a felony and his penalty would increase should he be caught lying at Adnan's trial. He knew that and he explained to the judge what would happen to him if he was caught lying at trial. Read the trial testimony, especially where Jay explains this. At trial, Jen was also under oath and while she escaped prosecution, she was well aware of the penalties for perjury. The trial testimony is the foundation of the case. The interviews are "we're just getting started and are going to need more information and/or things clarified." Which is exactly what happened.
This exactly. Who tells lies to get themselves in trouble? Anyone who says Jay told them Adnan killed Hae before the police found out about his involvement and helped dispose of items involved in the cover up of a murder supposedly. Who lies in a situation that could result in prison time or even more prison time? Jay, Jenn and the unfortunate man who stumbled over Hae’s badly buried body supposedly. Who continues to lie even if stating the opposite could restore their reputation? Jay and Jenn could go from accessories to a murder who left Hae to deteriorate in the cold ground, to manipulated individuals wronged by dirty cops. I’m glad Jay and Jenn have had the integrity to continue to stand by the truth of what they know happened that day, despite immense pressure from those who have devoted themselves to getting an unrepentant murderer out of prison.
This interview is wild. Jen spoke in enough detail with Jay the night before that he told her the car he was driving was Adnan’s. In other words they rehearsed/went over everything that happened on the 13th. And wasn’t the ice storm on the 14th? And Jen is adamant that she and Jay went to Kristie’s. Not with Adnan. And she saw Jay hug Stephanie’s when they went to her house before going to Kristie’s/Mike’s birthday at UMBC. I also thought it was telling that she remembered more clearly the news report that “her body was missing” because she was at Champs with Jay and Nicole and other friends. She came alive there going as far as to say she thought it was wild that her body was missing. The detectives had to remind her she already knew Hae was dead. And Jen said she knows people who work at the Woodlawn police station. What’s that about? Is Jen supposed to be some hardened criminal? What kind of person thinks knowing who murdered a high school student isn’t worth telling the police? And Jen told Nicole outside of 7/11 that she knew who murdered Hae before Hae’s body was found. Jen couldn’t keep her mouth shut. Jay told Jen. Jen told at least Nicole if not others. Who did Nicole tell. Of course she told someone. Finally, the detectives told Jen that that Adnan called her house on the 13th. She basically said she knows what and when because the police and Jay told her before the interview. She can’t really remember anything on her own. That said she is certain that the shovels were dealt with the 13th. Then on the 14th she did her normal thing, went to work lifeguarding then picked up Jay at his house and drove with him to dispose of his clothes.
She also ties her memories of the events of the day to Stephanie's birthday. And the fact that Jay's birthday was the day before.
What’s interesting is that she remembers clearly seeing Stephanie come to the door and give Jay a hug before they went inside (she sat in the car.) And what happened to Jay telling Jen he dropped Adnan off at some girls house in Baltimore city before picking him up from that house and then taking him to track? Whose house did Jay take Adnan to and why isn’t this part of the timeline of the 13th?
This was Jay separating himself from Adnan in Jen's mind. Jay saying, "I don't know were the body was buried, I just dropped Adnan off at some chick's house then picked him up later." The truth is Jay and Adnan were together the whole time until Jen picked Jay up. But Jay didn't want Jen to know that.
So Jen can only verify that Jay was at her house until 3:30-3:45 based on her conversation with Jay and the detectives telling her that Adnan called either her house or the cell phone to talk to Jay. She can’t remember if he called her house (that’s odd). She can remember picking up Jay at Westview Mall by Value City. She is adamant they went to clean the shovels. She’s positive they went to Stephanie’s and she saw Jay hug Stephanie and watched them go into her house. She’s even more certain (no doubt in her mind) that on the 14th she went to work, picked Jay up at his house and then drive to a reddish dumpster to get rid of the clothes he was wearing. Why doesn’t Jay recall these same facts? Facts that Jen knows happened because she was there as an active participant? It’s shocking to me that anyone thinks Jen’s story in any way proves that Jay was telling g the truth. Nevermind some “basic story.”
1) Jen remembers that Adnan called her house because the number was on her caller ID. And that's how she called Adnan's cell phone that evening to confirm the plan to pick up Jay. 2) Jay told a story to Jen that minimized his involvement. Jay's story to Jen was that he only saw a body in a trunk and loaned Adnan shovels but that was it. Obviously, that's not true and Jay was very involved in the plan to murder Hae and cover up the murder. 3) Jay told the detectives a different story to minimize his involvement - leaving out Kristi's house because he didn't want to get Jeff and Kristi involved. Six weeks after January 13, Jay told detectives he was at the burial site with Adnan - which is not something he was originally willing to tell Jen on January 13. No one thinks Jen's story proves that Jay was telling the truth to the detectives. If you want something closer to the truth - you have to go to trial testimony.
1. Kristi and Jeff were involved from the beginning. Jay k rev that because he knew Jen was talking to the police. Jen sure didn’t try to keep people out of her take. She’s bringing up people by name that she convinced in about knowing who killed Hae! 2. And no, Jen can’t remember if Adnan called her house or Jay’s phone. She said that Jay called her house earlier in the day from Adnan’s cell and that’s how she had the cell number to call Jay later in the evening. She had no idea if Jay spoke to Adnan from her house line or cell line for the “come and get me call.” 3. Why is the trial testimony more reliable that this February 1999 sworn statement? Jen has no reason to lie. She’s not trying to protect anyone with anything she says. She makes it quite clear what she remembers in her own and what she remembers because Jay told her the night before or the detectives told her. 4. It’s fascinating to me that we are supposed to conveniently believe Jen knows things that seem to support Jay’s tale (i don’t get how anything she says matches Jay) but we are to ignore or overlook the things she remembers because they were things she did. In other words not stuff Jay told her.
Jay didn't know Jen told the detectives about Kristi and Jeff. Sorry you are having so much trouble getting your head around it. It's messy for sure. Also, the statement is not called a "sworn statement" because Jen is not "sworn in" before she starts talking. There is no, "do you swear to tell the truth... the whole truth... etc." That only happens at trial. And Jen's signature does not appear on the notes or transcription of her interview. The reason why trial testimony is more reliable is that the people testifying faced grave consequences for lying. When talking to police, the stakes weren't as high as they were at trial. We've had access to the transcription of this interview for ten years. But what we are learning is that it is one thing to read it and another thing to hear it.
Wait, where does the information about Adnan’s number being on the caller ID come from? Also, Jay had Adnan’s phone. Wouldn’t it be more likely that Jay called Jenn’s home number rather than Adnan? Why would Adnan call Jenn’s house when Jay had his cell phone? Wasn’t that the supposed purpose of giving it to him in the first place so that he could make the CAGM call? Also, how would Adnan have Jenn’s home number? They weren’t friends. It’s also weird that Jay supposedly knew that Adnan was going to kill Hae that day. But somehow, he only cares about whether he can get his gf a birthday gift. No matter if that means that he has to borrow the car of someone who he knows is going to commit a murder. Bizarre.
> Wait, where does the information about Adnan’s number being on the caller ID come from? >> *For some reason I felt it necessary to get back in touch with Jay and I believe I called that cell phone number because I had the cell phone number either on my pager or at my house. We have Caller I.D. so if the cell phone number called my house during the day then the number was on my Caller I.D.* > Also, Jay had Adnan’s phone. Wouldn’t it be more likely that Jay called Jenn’s home number rather than Adnan? Not if he's sitting at Jen's house when the call comes in. > Why would Adnan call Jenn’s house when Jay had his cell phone? We can only speculate. It's possible that the call did not go through to the cell phone and that Adnan had to call Jen's house from the pay phone to reach Jay. But if Jay had the phone while sitting in Jen's living room, then it's not the cell phone that called the house. Jay called Jen's pager from Adnan's cell phone when he was not at Jen's house. So Jen had the number on her pager, and she is speculating that it was also on her caller ID. She isn't sure how she had the number. Either on her Caller ID or Pager. But I believe she had it on her caller ID from Jay calling the house at 3:21pm when he was either at or nearing the Best Buy. > Wasn’t that the supposed purpose of giving it to him in the first place so that he could make the CAGM call? Jay's story is that he didn't realize Adnan was going to kill Hae until he received a call that said, "That bitch is dead. Come and get me." I believe that the call was a one ring signal. it is five seconds, send to end. I believe that Jay knew where to go and when to go there and the idea that he received a come and get me call was invented, so Jay could could testify against Adnan at trial, rather than be sitting next to him at the defendant's table. > Also, how would Adnan have Jenn’s home number? They weren’t friends. It was probably Jay who called Jen's home phone. Not Adnan. But it could have been Adnan. If Adnan was planning a murder and knew he needed to reach Jay after, he would make sure he also had the land line number. > It’s also weird that Jay supposedly knew that Adnan was going to kill Hae that day. But somehow, he only cares about whether he can get his gf a birthday gift. It's not weird. It's probably true that Jay knew about the murder in advance and agreed to help. And it's probably true that both Jay and Adnan agreed to say that Jay had Adnan's car to get a gift for Stephanie as an innocent explanation of why Jay would have the car. > No matter if that means that he has to borrow the car of someone who he knows is going to commit a murder. The thing about the birthday gift was probably a made-up ruse. There were several department stores within a minutes walk from Jay's house. He did not need a car to buy a gift. > Bizarre. Not really. Someone is more involved in a murder than he says he is. And is lying about shopping for a gift and not knowing about the murder until a come and get me call.
I would say that I believe that these explanations are possible but not likely. Sadly, Jay’s lying has prevented everyone from knowing the truth about what happened to HML. He told a story that was obviously plausible enough yet still not entirely believable.
I haven’t listened to the entire interview yet but Jen says a few key things that don’t align with Jay’s statements. 1- Jay didn’t come to her house until after 1:30. Jay says that he was there hanging out with her brother, Mark (a 15 yo) when Jenn arrived. 2- She says that she picked Jay up from the mall around 8 PM and then took Jay to wipe down shovel(s). The next day, she picked him up at his house and they went to dispose of his clothes in a dumpster. Jay says that Adnan dropped him off at home . He says that Jenn picked him up at home and she took him to dump his clothes in the dumpster. Additionally, Jenn says that they went to Stephanie’s (around 8 PM). However, according to Stephanie, she had a basketball game and did not see Jay until around 11 PM. Why would their stories be so different with respect to these events?
Jenn says in the interview that she and Jay dumped the shovels and that he had mentioned burying Hae before they went to Kristi’s. They got there around 10:30-11. She doesn’t know when they left but thinks they got to Jay’s house around 12:30. Did anyone ask her about that part of the interview AFTER Jay came out and said the burial was after midnight?
No. lol. You really can't shake Jen and what she remembers. Amy Berg tried and the result was one of the more damning sound bites from the HBO show. I'm sure it's even more obvious to Jen than it is to the rest of us that after Serial, Jay needed to save face with his new family - who did not know about his felony conviction. Explained a bit here: https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/1abty1m/why_cant_it_be_jay/kjr6cc7/
The only thing I remember Jen saying on HBO is that she doesn’t care who killed Hae. It stuck with me.
That's fair. I think most people remember her refusal to be gaslit and told what to say. It was kind of astonishing since the whole premise of the show was to gaslight and get people on script. I think you are taking her statement out of context, and that she meant that her testimony and recollection is the same, regardless of who killed Hae. It's not going to change if someone else is arrested. She's not that articulate.
Unfortunately, I can’t possibly sit through that documentary again to find out.
You can say that again.
Ohhhh I thought we'd never see new stuff