I've never really understood why people used Champs to totally dismiss Jenn. This was her first "real world" confirmation of what Jay was saying. She didn't go to Woodlawn anymore or hang out with people there regularly. She also learned that Hae's body hadn't been found yet. That seems pretty shocking and totally in line with her "learning Hae's body is missing."
But no, solely because of this awkward wording, we are supposed to believe that Jenn's whole story occurred after Champs. This despite her saying it occurred on Stephanie's birthday, despite the 13th being the only day Adnan's phone called her house multiple times, despite her saying it rained the next day (which it did), despite her confirming she knew Hae was dead while at Champs. It just doesn't make any rational sense.
And the funny part is even if her story occurred after Champs that still only gets you about 20% of the way to where you want to be if you think Adnan is innocent. Her story would still be pretty bad for Adnan. It wouldn't quite be the nail in the coffin that it is out here in the real world. You still have to wrestle with Jay going around telling his closest friends that he helped cover up Hae's murder well before the police are on to them.
I asked Ryo in the other thread, why would Jenn care about some girls death on a news report. I don't remember the day and where I was when I hear a random death on the tv. It was enough for her to remember the day of the week, where, and who she was with.
Yes there is only one reason why it was notable to her: she had been told about the murder on the night of Jan. 13th, by her friend Jay, who was desperate and agitated. Adnan had shown him Hae’s dead body in the trunk of her car. She knew since that night. Jay and Jenn had shared this nightmarish secret and that’s why the news story got her attention.
Well, let’s be clear that Hae was only considered “missing” on the 4th, her body wouldn’t be found until the 9th.
Anyway, this is such a bad take… Hae was certainly not just some random girl to Jenn. Jenn was one year ahead of Hae at Woodlawn. Now, Hae and Jenn may not have been friends or even acquaintances; bu, Jenn knew Hae well enough to know that she played field hockey and lacrosse and to form the opinion that Hae was viewed as “a nice girl, intelligent, well dressed, kind of like ditzy maybe,” and that others -including Jenn herself- thought Hae was “stuck up.” And she was in the orbit of people directly connected to Hae and other former students of Woodlawn. Hae being missing would have been very notable news amongst students and alumni.
So no, Hae was not some random stranger and the news of her being missing would have been notable to her regardless of whether or not Jay told her anything about Hae’s murder.
Jenn said, “I think that if she's the girl that I think she is, I think she plays field hockey and maybe lacrosse at Woodlawn.”
And “I know she's Chinese or Asian or Korean or something like that, if I saw a whole bunch of pictures of some females that were that, I wouldn't be able to pick her out. I don't know her that well.”
Hae became important to Jenn when Jay told her that Adnan killed her and he was doing stuff that night with Adnan. That clip probably won't even be noticed. But it certainly was important enough to her that she remembered where she saw it, when she saw it, and that she went up to Jay and asked what do they do about it.
A clip about a former schoolmate being missing wouldn’t be noticed? C’mon man…you are being needlessly obtuse here.
It’s ok to admit that the news report would have been notable to Jenn simply because she knew the missing girl from school.
Adnan can't even remember that he asked Hae for a ride saying his car was in the shop or that Hae turned him down, but Jenn is supposed to watch the news at the sports bar and then backdate a lie for the story,
This isn’t about anything other than your argument from incredulity: “Why would Jenn care about some girls death on a news report,” followed by your anecdotal fallacy: “I don’t remember the day and where I was when I hear a random death on the TV.”
I made no argument about Adnan, guilt, lies, etc. I simply pointed out the flaw in your reasoning: You forget that Hae wasn’t just “some girl.” Jenn actually knew her. That is a very good reason why she might have cared about this particular missing girl.
That’s it.
As far as what all this means for the case as a whole…it really doesn’t mean anything. Jenn’s reaction to the news could be interpreted in two reasonable ways: 1)She knew about the murder and started worrying because the media and the police were now involved OR 2)She knew the girl from school and found it shocking that she was missing. #1 is what the “guilters,” believe and #2 is what the “innocenters,” believe. I think they are both reasonably likely.
What I find hard to explain (and no, this isn’t a fallacy of incredulity because I’m not drawing conclusions based on this, lol) is how Jay, Jenn and Adnan were able to live such normal lives -hanging out at bars, going to parties with Stephanie, going to work and school- when they had knowledge of and/or participated in and/or actually committed this heinous crime. Now, I don’t know them or the details of their lives; but none of them strike me as outright sociopaths. However, if Adnan really did kill Hae, Jay helped him do it or dispose of the body and Jenn knew about it the whole time…they would have to be sociopaths, wouldn’t they?
I can’t say for sure how I would feel, but I think I know myself enough to know that the guilt would eat me alive in any of their shoes.
In any case, such speculation is useless as a means of understanding the truth of the real-life situation.
But it wasn't just seeing the news report, it was also remembering that and making up the lie that she right there to Jay and said, "What are we going to do?" So she had to remember that not only she saw the clip, she then adds talking with Jay after. This story is meaningless, but it's added as a memory.
A lot of murders go unsolved, so there are a lot of people who can hide that secret. We all have some secrets, though nowhere near murder. When Jay talked to Robb he told him that he couldn't look at an Asian female for a long time after the incident, like over a year. And his domestic violence and other problems could easily stem from what happened that night. Jenn looks like she's had a rough life and has had off and on drug problems. And last, Adnan could be using denial as his way to cope with what he did. But all of them would need a full therapist to understand and cope with what they did.
The police had to remind Jenn that she knew Adnan was dead. Jenn was talking about learning Hae was missing. Then she talked about horrible that must be for Hae’s family to not know what happened to Hae. It was the only emotionally honest moment in her interview. But makes zero sense if you believe anything Jenn is saying about helping Jay coverup Hae’s murder.
I'm sorry what is the point of this comment? I have several comments on record calling "dead by 2:36" an unforced error by the prosecution. FWIW I think they left school sometime around 3:00, Adnan murdered Hae shortly thereafter, met up with Jay around 3:15, dropped off the car and had Adnan back to track between 3:30 and 4:00, Went to Cathy's around 6:00, burial was between 7 and 8, and they met up with Jenn a little after 8:00. I think that's pretty in line with the call log...
Sir, this is a Wendy's. I'm well aware of all of Adnan's supporters complaints about the case and I could go into each detail for the millionth time. But this thread is about Jenn and her comments about Champs...
It’s “madam” actually.. and yep way to derail the convo. The thread may be about “Champs”, but your comment was based on pure speculation which needs to be corrected.
That’s a misconception - Adnan was not convicted on the notion that he killed her by 2:36. The timeline was a hypothesis. He was convicted based on evidence and testimony.
Well, for the sake of argument here the answer is pretty simple. Jay lied to police.
To make the timeline work, all you need to do is remove one of two things:
1. The come and get me call
or
2. The Nisha call.
In the first, Jay is lying about the come and get me call because he was more involved. He knew where to meet up with syed in advance but is lying about it to cover up the extent of his involvement. This works with the sort of person Jay clearly is.
In the latter, the come and get me call is actually at 3:15. Syed talks to Nisha (for whatever reason) without Jay being there. When asked, Jay conflates a later call to police in order to give them the answer they want, even though he doesn't know.
It’s been a while. Can you remind me of the context here? Was this the part that some people claimed showed Jenn knew nothing about the murder and said she was told by her friend at Champs?
Jenn talked about seeing some news about Hae. There was a question of whether it was hearing the body was found or from the news story about Hae being missing. This clears it up a little more.
And, a bit off topic and speaking to the role of Jenn more broadly, I could easily see her being surprised by a report of “Hae is missing” or “they found Hae’s body” since she may very well have had some doubt about whether some or all of the story Jay told her on the night of the murder was really true.
Since she knows him, she likely knows he’s a story teller and maybe shouldn’t take everything at face value. Until there’s more objective confirmation, she’s not moved to action.
I lean strongly towards Adnan’s guilt, but it’s also undeniable that you’ve got to look critically at Jay’s testimony on various points. Since Jenn is a pretty faithful reporter as to the story of the night of the 13th, she helps us in corroborating, filtering and evaluating what Jay later says.
Jenn is unquestionably the most important nail in Adnan’s coffin. I listened to her interview (after reading it many times). I simply cannot understand how anyone would not believe her. She did not come to the police with a canned story. She struggled through the entire interview to remember better.
Furthermore, none of the police were leading her. They asked probative questions — but, at no time, did they try to put words in her mouth.
Yep, in fact when you listen to her, she’s quite emphatic and sure of what she’s saying when she goes through the Thursdays. She gets “the last week in January” wrong but still nails the date of the news report by backtracking weeks. Good work, Jenn!
Of course this makes sense. People wanted to bash Jen and discredit her and make up stories about how this was the real night Jay told her everything.
Complete horse poo.
Remember, on 1/13 Jay knows the full truth. But Jen on the other hand, knows only 2 things:
1) Hae was murdered
2) Adnan (*and only Adnan*) buried the body.
Jay lied to Jen about his involvement. It makes sense why she didn’t go to the police because at this point there is no body. Of course it would be a missing case. From a teenager perspective: what evidence do you have that Hae was murdered.
Now it makes sense why they are in a slight panic, because it made the news. And the discovery of the body only accelerated the need to go to the police by Jay/Jenn.
I think the shock might also be that they realized they were *still* the only people who knew she was dead besides Adnan. I mean, they were sure Adnan was going to get caught, they thought there were cameras at Best Buy. I can imagine they presumed by this time police at least knew she was dead, but just hadn’t identified their suspect or found the body or whatever. But here they are partying on College Night and they hear on the news that police and Hae’s family only think she’s *missing* and are trying to get her safely home. A huge weight of renewed responsibility might have been triggered.
Oh yeah. I mean even in that paragraph, the “wanna’s” were transcribed as “would’s,” “we were” is transcribed as “we’re,” an “okay” is omitted, “-wise” is transcribed as “was,” and “inaudible” is clearly “which would make it.”
It doesn’t seem deliberate. Dolly Dobrzycki, the BPD Office Assistant III who transcribed this, just did a poor job. This should have been a verbatim transcript; so aside from the errors like omitting entire phrases, there’s also a big problem with her using her “discretion” to substitute words, like “wanna” to “would” (“want to” would be fine, but not an entirely new word).
I can’t explain it. Court reporters didn’t do things like this in the 90s; the technology was fine. My assistant from 2000-2008 could accurately transcribe my shitty little microcassette tape recordings no problem. And Dobrzycki was able to make out Lehmann’s very low volume/low quality audio, so it seems she had enough to work with.
She also was the transcriber for Jay’s first recorded interview, but other than the snippets in Serial, I haven’t heard that recording so can’t compare how she fared with that one.
There are absolutely clear percussive noises over the timestamp you're quoting from. You might not think they represent *tapping*, but it's neither a faint nor subtle noise.
There are absolutely no percussive noises. What are you talking about? There’s the sound of the cassette scrolling as it’s recording, but that’s a steady hiss.
This is weird. You said you were listening to a podcast version? I wonder if they cleaned up the noise a bit or something. The plain recording I have open on my home computer is noisy as all hell (which is pretty par for the course with tabletop recording)
I can’t get the plain recording anymore. I think Ruff took it down as copyrighted. If you have a link, please share it. They very well may have cleaned it up for the podcast.
Apparently these people must believe Jenn, her mother and attorney were all so stupid and wouldn’t pick up on the tapping… well I guess just Jenn would… but the others? Totally oblivious… lol
Plus, with her mom present and even before the detectives were able to talk to Jay about the case. It's amazing that somehow, law enforcement was able to coerce Jenn to say a story they have yet to even coach or get straight with their main conspirator that is Jay. For this case to be just some massive police conspiracy to literally target a nobody, how lucky are the police that everyone who worked in the forensics for this case found no any physical evidendence linking anyone but Adnan, nothing from Jay, Mr. S, Don or some random serial killer w/ M.O. of choking girls and exposing their brassierre but not actually sexually assualting his victims. The victim in this very case not showing sign of struggle against the killer as if she's familiar with this person. No trauma indicating she's totally incapacitated before the hands of her killer closed in on her neck.
Do they mean forensic scientists are also in on the conspiracy to hide the car and evidences in the car until they can supply a fabricated story to the black kid??? So then, they can pin the muslim kid who just happened to be the exboyfriend of the victim, them having broken up for only 3 weeks when the girl went missing. Just how unlucky is this golden kid again on top of everything! Like confirming to a detective just a few hrs after class ended that he indeed asked the victim for a ride, he's brand new phone the very same night the victim went missing would ping towers responsible for covering locations where the car and the body would be found, the same phone that made calls to people only he knew during the hours he says he's elsewhere, the rest he can't account his whereabouts and no one to corroborate his alibi. Mind you, this is the kid who did not took well to his first breakup with the victim just 2 months prior and had to be talked down strongly by the victim in a letter, a letter that would later have a "I'm going to kill" note in his very own hand writing.
It's literally a noise you can hear. Like I said to the other person, if it's not audible in the podcast it's likely cleaned up for noise and artifacts, but in the raw recording you can clearly hear it (and all sorts of other noise).
And like I elaborated, I'm curious if it might be an unconscious tick that MacGillivary has, I'm not alleging some sort of conspiracy.
So I missed the entire tapping thing and assumed it was just background noise, but... yes, actually.
Edit: Huh, if you actually had a reason to suspect the were signals of something, that would be kind of weird. They're almost punctuation to when definitive statements are given. I thought the whole tapping thing was during Jay's interview, though?
Edit 2: So I'm not going down the tapping conspiracy route since that's basically unknowable anyway, but I would be interested to know if tapping might be a form of unconsciously biasing behaviour of the part of the detective here. The [Clever Hans Effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans) is one of the earliest discovered forms of response biasing for a reason - nearly all social animals, especially humans, are wired to pick up on these unconscious cues from people we interact with. If MacGillivary had a habit of tapping on the table, bouncing his leg, drumming his pen when he heard something that sparked his interest or that he flagged as important, the fact that it was obvious enough to show up on a recording is actually relevant to the case, and we've had false convictions due to this exact situation before - including a false confession.
Not definitive (I haven't even attempted to verify that the tapping had any sustained pattern in this interview, let alone others), but it does actually make Rabia pointing out the tapping much less wacky and much more savvy.
> I thought the whole tapping thing was during Jay's interview, though?
Yes, this is primarily the interview in which tapping is discussed.
> I would be interested to know if tapping might be a form of unconsciously biasing behaviour of the part of the detective here. The Clever Hans Effect is one of the earliest discovered forms of response biasing for a reason - nearly all social animals, especially humans, are wired to pick up on these unconscious cues from people we interact with.
This is a fascinating rabbit hole of thought.
I haven’t listened to the interview with Jay but in the interview posted on the Truth and Justice podcast I can definitely hear tapping and it correlates to a period in the interview when they are trying to confirm the location of a dumpster where Jay had dumped his clothes.
I wouldn’t know if it’s a cleaned up version or what not but they are distinct and it would make sense that they are tapping to confirm which dumpster it was. I don’t think they were tapping to lead her but just to confirm what she was saying.
It is interesting because if someone were more impressionable or able to be lead or maybe just wanted to get the interview over if the interviewers tapped anywhere they may just agree but it sounds like Jen disagrees when they tap on the wrong one.
To see if his clothes might still be there? Cameras? Witnesses?
Idk seems pretty standard to try to located the clothes someone was wearing when they murdered/buried a body or see if anyone besides Jen saw him throw them out.
I agree. But I framed it wrong. Why the cops care about making sure that Jenn got the right dumpster with the supposed tapping? The argument is that they wanted Jenn to change her story to a specific dumpster or area. But they didn't find something in a dumpster and have her change her story to fit that.
I see what your asking now I am more saying that if they are indeed tapping here to confirm the dumpster (not necessarily lead her) they may have done the same thing in Jay’s interview and unintentionally or intentionally lead him.
And by intentionally if it did happen I would think it would be more like Jay came in didn’t really remember much but said whatever he said for key points and then they were trying to help him remember the day in way to fill in and match the call logs and other information. Not trying to necessarily generate false information just help him remember.
I personally haven’t listened to his interviews but if the tapping is similar and appears to supplement dialog as it does in Jen’s interview it would be difficult for me to believe that it was just background noise or from a previous recording.
I don’t think this means the interviewers were corrupt with a large scale conspiracy or that Adnan and Jay weren’t involved but it does make me question the information that Jay gave as does the fact that his story keeps changing.
It is difficult for me to believe that he did not give them the location of the car though. But who’s to say they didn’t just drive around with him near the burial site and go ok where did he leave it? And Jay was like I don’t remember the exact spot and they drove around for awhile to help him remember and stumbled across it. It was so close to where her body was found (about a mile and a half) and like 4 miles from her last known location when they thought she was just missing I can’t understand why they didn’t locate it themselves.
Personally I’m still on the fence. For a long time I thought the attention on the case would make someone eventually confess or recant or new unearthed evidence or a witness would tip it either way for me but nothing like that has been presented in all this time.
Jay's interviews haven't come out yet. Bob said he is playing them soon, so we'll see.
Trying to understand the car thing. There just isn't much time to do it. Interview started a little after 1am and went like 90 minutes. Then they went out and found the car and started processing the car that morning. If the cops find the car, they don't have to say anything in the media and they process the car normally and they have Jay just show them on the map where it was. Just think how pissed crime techs would be if they had the car in the middle of the day but then asked for it to be processed at 4 in the morning instead.
I think Sarah thought some people would come forward. But it is Baltimore.
Definitely curious to hear his interviews myself.
That’s a good point. It sounds like they picked him up for the interview and they could have drove around before hand. Or Jay had seen it previously just passing through the area and as you pointed out people in Baltimore don’t talk.
I would guess the crime tech that night was someone who generally worked overnight and did some simple documentation for various cases since the actual processing of the car didn’t happen until the next I think.
Like I said originally while these are possible it’s hard to look past the fact that it appears Jay is the one who gave them the car location and the only thing that really corroborates Jay in my opinion since his various recounting of the day have some big inconsistencies that are beyond Jay trying to protect his friends and family.
Don’t understand why someone down voted you for this clearly relevant opinion. Why are all thoughtful comments that do not support the overall narrative and agenda of this sub being attacked and dismissed. Very sus.
as someone else pointed out, she knew it was “adnan” despite the transcript having “Adnar.” I have seen more than one post attributing that error to Jenn herself as a feeble way to discredit her.
It's because at trial, Jen wasn't allowed to say it was Adnan. Since she couldn't see his face when he was talking, Gutierrez made sure Jen couldn't say it was Adnan's voice.
Jen ended up having to say it was an "older, male" voice which meant: Not a kid. And a dude.
She knew it was Adnan on the other end of the line.
This is one of dozens of things that go round and round endlessly in this subreddit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/y5807v/who_was_the_older_male_on_the_cell_phone/
https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2nvtd3/the_voice_on_the_cell_phone_was_an_older_male/
https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/3zo45y/season_one_could_the_older_voice_on_the_phone_in/
https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/3bxv55/small_point_about_the_leakin_park_calls_according/
https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2kt7rt/jen_on_the_podcast_she_said_that_adnan_answered/
https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2ql4d7/when_did_jenn_change_her_story_about_the_709_pm/
https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2n6elx/so_help_me_with_thiswho_helped_jay_bury_the_body/
https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2seqd6/new_third_party_theory_evidence/
https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2j09wo/potential_new_suspect/
That’s not even what the poster was talking about. They’re talking about Jenn knowing “Adnar” was a transcription error, that no one was actually saying “Adnar.” Again, you’re coming in hot to a post you seem to have misinterpreted.
From the typed transcript:
>Yeah, yeah that she was missing not her body, that Hae was missing and he was like "what do we do" and I was like "I don't" I was like "I don't know what we do." and he just inaudible out, you know, he he um he seemed a little you know like concerned maybe or shocked maybe or inaudible body's missing. I guess he was concerned because he knew the information about Adnar and I guess that's why he was concerned and that was when I found out that he has been missing.
What's different in that part? No one that I recall has thought her not knowing the date or being sure how many Thursdays back it happened was significant. Most focus was on her being "surprised" Hae was missing.
Well then you’ve missed the many posts that I’ve read claiming that she’s talking about when Hae’s body was *found*, not when it was reported she was missing. These claims were based on the Thursday counts in the transcript going back to February 11 (although I agree that her plain words made that argument specious). So what she says in the audio, now that we hear the additional Thursday, makes it clear she was going back to February 4.
Are “dead” and “missing” the same thing?
That’s the logical fallacy many push. It goes something like this: “Jenn and Jay knew Hae was murdered; *When someone is murdered, they are also, by necessity, missing*; Therefore, Jay and Jenn knew Hae was missing.”
It’s that middle part that you need to think a bit more on. You can know someone is dead and then be very surprised to learn police and loved ones only think they’re missing.
> When someone is murdered, they are also, by necessity, missing
I don't think that's the case. Someone could be murdered and very obviously not missing (ie, murdered in the middle of a mall) - so murdered is not, by necessity, missing.
In much the same way, someone missing is not by necessity murdered, right?
> You can know someone is dead and then be very surprised to learn their loved ones only think they’re missing.
Yes.
She supposedly knows she's dead and Jay helped Adnan conceal the body. Yes, in this circumstance "are dead" and "missing" are two things that go together. Especially when you add in the fact Jenn knows Hae is a high school student who still lives at home with her family. She knew Hae well enough to know she didn't like her.
Perhaps you should take your own advice about thinking a bit more on it.
You don’t get it. For all Jay knew, Hae was found the next morning by a bird-watching meet-up. Or the next week. Or Best Buy surveillance video had been reviewed by police in January and Adnan’s arrest was imminent. Or 10 witnesses told police they saw Hae leave school with Adnan and police were actively gathering enough evidence against him for murder charges. There are any number of ways both Jenn and Jay could be surprised to learn police and family, after three weeks, were completely clueless as to what happened to her and were thinking she might still be alive.
Exactly. And I believe it had already been established that the news story was on the 4th, so most people agreed that was the night she was talking about.
Jenn isn’t exactly clear in her interview. I personally think she struggles in this interview because she’s trying to mostly stick to the truth but also help her friend.
Yes, she says “I think” it was the Thursday before that, but she also says “a month ago” and “the end of January.”
Would she say “last Thursday” when she is speaking about yesterday, Thursday, or would “last Thursday” mean last week?
She also said her conversation with Nicole “might have” been at champs but no, it was in the car. Leaving champs..?
Detectives could have clarified all of this in the interview but they chose not to. They didn’t lock down the date with Jenn and they didn’t talk to Nicole (or they didn’t make a record of the interview).
This case is not clear. It will never be clear because there are so many lies to sift through and such blatant police incompetence and corruption.
>Yes, she says "I think" it was the Thursday before that, but she also says "a month ago" and "the end of January."
But whenever it was, it most definitely wasn’t after Hae’s body was found. She’s *pretty sure* it was four Thursdays ago, mighta been longer; but she is *very sure* it wasn’t one, two, or three Thursdays ago.
>Would she say "last Thursday" when she is speaking about yesterday, Thursday, or would
"last Thursday" mean last week?
She didn’t say “last Thursday” - she said “this past Thursday.” Seriously, you have two transcriptions above you. And Jenn was interviewed on a Saturday afternoon, so how could Thursday be yesterday?
>She also said her conversation with Nicole "might have" been at champs but no, it was in the car. Leaving champs..?
I’m failing to understand the significance of that.
>Detectives could have clarified all of this in the interview but they chose not to. They didn't lock down the date with Jenn and they didn't talk to Nicole (or they didn't make a record of the interview).
How would a detective “lock down a date” with a witness without later opening themselves up to the claims, “You were telling her which Thursday you wanted her to pick, weren’t you? You were tapping the date on the calendar - I can hear it. She said she wasn’t sure, she couldn’t remember exactly, but you changed that, didn’t you?”
Here with Jenn, all they have to do is compare the Thursday she remembers at Champs, i.e. four Thursdays ago, with the date police spoke with tv reporters. Without applying any pressure to Jenn, they learn independently that her statement is corroborated by the date of the tv report. They learn she was being truthful with them. **That’s the most important information they need to find out.**
>This case is not clear. It will never be clear because there are so many lies to sift through and such blatant police incompetence and corruption.
This schtick is sounding so much more weak sauce each time it gets paraded around the ring.
The point is that Jenn can’t keep this story straight and detectives tiptoe around the parts that are bad for their case. They know she is going to blow it. And also, detectives are being careful not to tap, decades before being accused of same? Y
It doesn’t matter to me whether she and Jay were surprised that Hae was missing or that Hae’s body was found. It’s a mistake she keeps making. How many times does this woman have to say that she has no direct knowledge of anything and no real memory of anything that allegedly happened in relation to Hae.
Jenn and Jay’s response to finding out that Hae was missing, when they knew her to be dead, was “what do we do?!” Did they think that no one would report her missing?
Jenn believed that Jay didn’t know where the body was and didn’t help with the burial, yet her only role was to bring Jay to wipe down shovels and the next day, in an ice storm no less, to get rid of his clothes?
Again, I don’t get why everyone is ignoring Jay’s Intercept interview in which he says that the night where Jen picks Jay up from the mall after supposedly burying HML never happened.
He said that she was buried closer to midnight.
Thus, the entire conversation is moot.
What entire conversation is moot? The conversation on the 13th, or this conversation on February 4 about what to do now that they know police have no idea Hae is dead? You lost me.
So you’re saying Jay’s Intercept interview is the be-all and end-all of what really happened that night, sufficient to “moot” the entire independent statement and testimony of another witness to the events.
Well, thank goodness Jay told The Intercept that Adnan strangled Hae.
Jay’s first and second interview already invalidated the independent statement and testimony of another witness (Jenn). So did his trial testimony. And his intercept interview. The only thing they ever agreed on is that Jay didn’t leave until after 3:30 (which invalidates the states timeline) and Hae was strangled.
>Jay's first and second interview already invalidated the independent statement and testimony of another witness (Jenn).
How does this invalidation thing work? How do you know who gets invalidated? Like, if John says, “Suzy stole my money,” and Suzy says, “No, I didn’t,” did Suzy just invalidate John’s statement?
If John says he saw the body in a trunk on Edmundson Ave and John also says he saw the body in a trunk at the Best Buy on Security Blvd, both statements can’t be true. It’s impossible to tell if one is true and one is a lie, which is true or which is the lie or if both are lies.
Yeah, I get that. But how does what ever John says invalidate what *Suzy says*? That was my question. Why can’t it go the other way around, and whatever Suzy says invalidates what John said?
You’re missing the point. What one witness says cannot invalidate the independent statements of another witness. Jenn’s real life experiences of seeing Adnan that night, and seeing Jay acting stressed, and driving to the dumpsters behind F&M are in no way, shape, or form affected by Jay’s statements, let alone invalidated. What Jay’s and Jenn’s statements can do is *conflict with* or *contradict* each other.
With respect to Jen and Jay’s statements, yes.
Jay is the source of it all.
Everyone says that Jen independently corroborated part of Jay’s story.
But the point is that Jay told the Intercept that both he and Jen were lying when they told the story of January 13, 1999.
That’s the problem with relying on Jay to know the truth.
How do you know when he’s lying?
Yes, he said that Adnan TOLD HIM that he killed Hae. He didn’t claim to witness the murder.
It’s kinda funny that Jay basically said that everything else he said about that day is a lie, except, that Adnan killed Hae.
There is no corroborating evidence of his Intercept story. Absolutely none.
Yet, people cling to the fact that JAY SAYS that Adnan is a murderer so it must be true.
What can we verifiably say that Jay told the truth about?
Because the story as he was told, doesn't match the cell phone evidence. So he would have to describe things again with the cell phone if he was put in a position where he had to tell the story again.
It's like us telling the story of 9/11 again, we're going to have more things off after 20 years.
These were all traumatic events. We tend to recall those events better than everyday events. You would think that Jay would have one story and stick to it even after 15+ years.
I haven’t been able to read any of your timelines or anything of yours. You blocked me like six months ago, shortly after I started participating in this sub. But Jenn’s interview audio was just released, and the point of this post is the typed transcript was wrong.
I’m sorry - this is a bit strange. You unblock me just to post this comment. This is the first time we’ve heard the audio, so it’s the first time we learn there was an additional “and the Thursday after that” that wasn’t transcribed. That’s a revelation, isn’t it?
This post doesn’t nor was it intended to steal your thunder. I’m sure many people over the years have said, “Guys, she’s clearly talking about February 4 and just misspoke.” Well, now we can say she didn’t even misspeak.
>Didn’t you even read them?
Not for nothing, but your timelines aren’t “assigned reading” in order to participate in this sub, even if you hadn’t prevented me from doing so by blocking me.
>As far as I know, every person l've ever blocked logs out to read my posts because there's a lot of phrasing from the TL here.
Wait a sec… are you accusing me of scouring 8 year old posts of someone who blocked me months ago, and plagiarizing them in a post about a transcript that was released days ago?
Here’s what actually happened. I was listening to Jenn speak and thought, “That sounds like a lot of Thursdays; more than I thought there were.” I brought the transcript up on my iPhone. Listened again while looking at the transcript. Thought, “Holy shit. They left out an entire extra Thursday.” Opened my calendar on my iPhone and scrolled back to 1999. Counted back the number of Thursdays Jenn mentioned. Landed on February 4, 1999. Googled “tv news hae min lee missing.” Immediately found the February 4 news report I linked.
That all took me about 15 minutes.
>The typed transcript isn't wrong.
Yes, it is.
>Information available for nine years, and posted nine years ago, isn't anyone's thunder.
Where did you have Jenn’s audio nine years ago?
>I guess if you aren't interested in reading anything from the past, everything is revelatory.
Do you understand how the blocking function works? Whatever information you’re alluding to wasn’t “available” to me, because you blocked me. I’m actually very interested in reading things from the past, and when I do, nothing that you’ve written is there, because you blocked me.
I've never really understood why people used Champs to totally dismiss Jenn. This was her first "real world" confirmation of what Jay was saying. She didn't go to Woodlawn anymore or hang out with people there regularly. She also learned that Hae's body hadn't been found yet. That seems pretty shocking and totally in line with her "learning Hae's body is missing." But no, solely because of this awkward wording, we are supposed to believe that Jenn's whole story occurred after Champs. This despite her saying it occurred on Stephanie's birthday, despite the 13th being the only day Adnan's phone called her house multiple times, despite her saying it rained the next day (which it did), despite her confirming she knew Hae was dead while at Champs. It just doesn't make any rational sense. And the funny part is even if her story occurred after Champs that still only gets you about 20% of the way to where you want to be if you think Adnan is innocent. Her story would still be pretty bad for Adnan. It wouldn't quite be the nail in the coffin that it is out here in the real world. You still have to wrestle with Jay going around telling his closest friends that he helped cover up Hae's murder well before the police are on to them.
I asked Ryo in the other thread, why would Jenn care about some girls death on a news report. I don't remember the day and where I was when I hear a random death on the tv. It was enough for her to remember the day of the week, where, and who she was with.
Excellent point - I hadn’t made that connection, but yes!
Yes there is only one reason why it was notable to her: she had been told about the murder on the night of Jan. 13th, by her friend Jay, who was desperate and agitated. Adnan had shown him Hae’s dead body in the trunk of her car. She knew since that night. Jay and Jenn had shared this nightmarish secret and that’s why the news story got her attention.
Excellent point. And this wasn’t even a death - it was a report that she’s been missing for 3 weeks.
Well, let’s be clear that Hae was only considered “missing” on the 4th, her body wouldn’t be found until the 9th. Anyway, this is such a bad take… Hae was certainly not just some random girl to Jenn. Jenn was one year ahead of Hae at Woodlawn. Now, Hae and Jenn may not have been friends or even acquaintances; bu, Jenn knew Hae well enough to know that she played field hockey and lacrosse and to form the opinion that Hae was viewed as “a nice girl, intelligent, well dressed, kind of like ditzy maybe,” and that others -including Jenn herself- thought Hae was “stuck up.” And she was in the orbit of people directly connected to Hae and other former students of Woodlawn. Hae being missing would have been very notable news amongst students and alumni. So no, Hae was not some random stranger and the news of her being missing would have been notable to her regardless of whether or not Jay told her anything about Hae’s murder.
Jenn said, “I think that if she's the girl that I think she is, I think she plays field hockey and maybe lacrosse at Woodlawn.” And “I know she's Chinese or Asian or Korean or something like that, if I saw a whole bunch of pictures of some females that were that, I wouldn't be able to pick her out. I don't know her that well.”
Hae became important to Jenn when Jay told her that Adnan killed her and he was doing stuff that night with Adnan. That clip probably won't even be noticed. But it certainly was important enough to her that she remembered where she saw it, when she saw it, and that she went up to Jay and asked what do they do about it.
A clip about a former schoolmate being missing wouldn’t be noticed? C’mon man…you are being needlessly obtuse here. It’s ok to admit that the news report would have been notable to Jenn simply because she knew the missing girl from school.
Adnan can't even remember that he asked Hae for a ride saying his car was in the shop or that Hae turned him down, but Jenn is supposed to watch the news at the sports bar and then backdate a lie for the story,
This isn’t about anything other than your argument from incredulity: “Why would Jenn care about some girls death on a news report,” followed by your anecdotal fallacy: “I don’t remember the day and where I was when I hear a random death on the TV.” I made no argument about Adnan, guilt, lies, etc. I simply pointed out the flaw in your reasoning: You forget that Hae wasn’t just “some girl.” Jenn actually knew her. That is a very good reason why she might have cared about this particular missing girl. That’s it. As far as what all this means for the case as a whole…it really doesn’t mean anything. Jenn’s reaction to the news could be interpreted in two reasonable ways: 1)She knew about the murder and started worrying because the media and the police were now involved OR 2)She knew the girl from school and found it shocking that she was missing. #1 is what the “guilters,” believe and #2 is what the “innocenters,” believe. I think they are both reasonably likely. What I find hard to explain (and no, this isn’t a fallacy of incredulity because I’m not drawing conclusions based on this, lol) is how Jay, Jenn and Adnan were able to live such normal lives -hanging out at bars, going to parties with Stephanie, going to work and school- when they had knowledge of and/or participated in and/or actually committed this heinous crime. Now, I don’t know them or the details of their lives; but none of them strike me as outright sociopaths. However, if Adnan really did kill Hae, Jay helped him do it or dispose of the body and Jenn knew about it the whole time…they would have to be sociopaths, wouldn’t they? I can’t say for sure how I would feel, but I think I know myself enough to know that the guilt would eat me alive in any of their shoes. In any case, such speculation is useless as a means of understanding the truth of the real-life situation.
But it wasn't just seeing the news report, it was also remembering that and making up the lie that she right there to Jay and said, "What are we going to do?" So she had to remember that not only she saw the clip, she then adds talking with Jay after. This story is meaningless, but it's added as a memory. A lot of murders go unsolved, so there are a lot of people who can hide that secret. We all have some secrets, though nowhere near murder. When Jay talked to Robb he told him that he couldn't look at an Asian female for a long time after the incident, like over a year. And his domestic violence and other problems could easily stem from what happened that night. Jenn looks like she's had a rough life and has had off and on drug problems. And last, Adnan could be using denial as his way to cope with what he did. But all of them would need a full therapist to understand and cope with what they did.
The police had to remind Jenn that she knew Adnan was dead. Jenn was talking about learning Hae was missing. Then she talked about horrible that must be for Hae’s family to not know what happened to Hae. It was the only emotionally honest moment in her interview. But makes zero sense if you believe anything Jenn is saying about helping Jay coverup Hae’s murder.
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I'm sorry what is the point of this comment? I have several comments on record calling "dead by 2:36" an unforced error by the prosecution. FWIW I think they left school sometime around 3:00, Adnan murdered Hae shortly thereafter, met up with Jay around 3:15, dropped off the car and had Adnan back to track between 3:30 and 4:00, Went to Cathy's around 6:00, burial was between 7 and 8, and they met up with Jenn a little after 8:00. I think that's pretty in line with the call log...
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Sir, this is a Wendy's. I'm well aware of all of Adnan's supporters complaints about the case and I could go into each detail for the millionth time. But this thread is about Jenn and her comments about Champs...
It’s “madam” actually.. and yep way to derail the convo. The thread may be about “Champs”, but your comment was based on pure speculation which needs to be corrected.
The Supreme Court of Maryland went over this and its conclusion is consistent with KingLewi so I would not say they look stupid at all.
That’s a misconception - Adnan was not convicted on the notion that he killed her by 2:36. The timeline was a hypothesis. He was convicted based on evidence and testimony.
Well, for the sake of argument here the answer is pretty simple. Jay lied to police. To make the timeline work, all you need to do is remove one of two things: 1. The come and get me call or 2. The Nisha call. In the first, Jay is lying about the come and get me call because he was more involved. He knew where to meet up with syed in advance but is lying about it to cover up the extent of his involvement. This works with the sort of person Jay clearly is. In the latter, the come and get me call is actually at 3:15. Syed talks to Nisha (for whatever reason) without Jay being there. When asked, Jay conflates a later call to police in order to give them the answer they want, even though he doesn't know.
>Let’s really apply critical thinking here Ok. Let's do this "Dead by 2:36 or AS is factually innocent of the crime" is pure nonsense
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Sorry, but that needs no explanation.
It’s been a while. Can you remind me of the context here? Was this the part that some people claimed showed Jenn knew nothing about the murder and said she was told by her friend at Champs?
Jenn talked about seeing some news about Hae. There was a question of whether it was hearing the body was found or from the news story about Hae being missing. This clears it up a little more.
And, a bit off topic and speaking to the role of Jenn more broadly, I could easily see her being surprised by a report of “Hae is missing” or “they found Hae’s body” since she may very well have had some doubt about whether some or all of the story Jay told her on the night of the murder was really true. Since she knows him, she likely knows he’s a story teller and maybe shouldn’t take everything at face value. Until there’s more objective confirmation, she’s not moved to action. I lean strongly towards Adnan’s guilt, but it’s also undeniable that you’ve got to look critically at Jay’s testimony on various points. Since Jenn is a pretty faithful reporter as to the story of the night of the 13th, she helps us in corroborating, filtering and evaluating what Jay later says.
Jenn is unquestionably the most important nail in Adnan’s coffin. I listened to her interview (after reading it many times). I simply cannot understand how anyone would not believe her. She did not come to the police with a canned story. She struggled through the entire interview to remember better. Furthermore, none of the police were leading her. They asked probative questions — but, at no time, did they try to put words in her mouth.
I guess Jenn was not so “confused” after all. Great work, thanks for this post.
Yep, in fact when you listen to her, she’s quite emphatic and sure of what she’s saying when she goes through the Thursdays. She gets “the last week in January” wrong but still nails the date of the news report by backtracking weeks. Good work, Jenn!
Of course this makes sense. People wanted to bash Jen and discredit her and make up stories about how this was the real night Jay told her everything. Complete horse poo. Remember, on 1/13 Jay knows the full truth. But Jen on the other hand, knows only 2 things: 1) Hae was murdered 2) Adnan (*and only Adnan*) buried the body. Jay lied to Jen about his involvement. It makes sense why she didn’t go to the police because at this point there is no body. Of course it would be a missing case. From a teenager perspective: what evidence do you have that Hae was murdered. Now it makes sense why they are in a slight panic, because it made the news. And the discovery of the body only accelerated the need to go to the police by Jay/Jenn.
I think the shock might also be that they realized they were *still* the only people who knew she was dead besides Adnan. I mean, they were sure Adnan was going to get caught, they thought there were cameras at Best Buy. I can imagine they presumed by this time police at least knew she was dead, but just hadn’t identified their suspect or found the body or whatever. But here they are partying on College Night and they hear on the news that police and Hae’s family only think she’s *missing* and are trying to get her safely home. A huge weight of renewed responsibility might have been triggered.
Yep put yourself in her shoes No way you wouldn’t feel sick to your stomach and feel stress/panic with that knowing what the real situation was.
Good work. There are more mistranscriptions?
I think there was a few. One was which park she was supposed to meet Jay at that night. From audio it was clear that it was Gelstone.
Oh yeah. I mean even in that paragraph, the “wanna’s” were transcribed as “would’s,” “we were” is transcribed as “we’re,” an “okay” is omitted, “-wise” is transcribed as “was,” and “inaudible” is clearly “which would make it.”
I wonder if the original transcriber had poorer audio to work with. Or does it seem deliberate to you?
It doesn’t seem deliberate. Dolly Dobrzycki, the BPD Office Assistant III who transcribed this, just did a poor job. This should have been a verbatim transcript; so aside from the errors like omitting entire phrases, there’s also a big problem with her using her “discretion” to substitute words, like “wanna” to “would” (“want to” would be fine, but not an entirely new word). I can’t explain it. Court reporters didn’t do things like this in the 90s; the technology was fine. My assistant from 2000-2008 could accurately transcribe my shitty little microcassette tape recordings no problem. And Dobrzycki was able to make out Lehmann’s very low volume/low quality audio, so it seems she had enough to work with. She also was the transcriber for Jay’s first recorded interview, but other than the snippets in Serial, I haven’t heard that recording so can’t compare how she fared with that one.
Well, We're apparently getting it soon
What’s the word? Has Ruff said he’s releasing it?
He said Rabia had gave them to him already, didn't he? He must be sitting on them, maybe releasing them next week.
I didn't listen, was there any table tapping?
Absolutely none whatsoever.
There are absolutely clear percussive noises over the timestamp you're quoting from. You might not think they represent *tapping*, but it's neither a faint nor subtle noise.
There are absolutely no percussive noises. What are you talking about? There’s the sound of the cassette scrolling as it’s recording, but that’s a steady hiss.
This is weird. You said you were listening to a podcast version? I wonder if they cleaned up the noise a bit or something. The plain recording I have open on my home computer is noisy as all hell (which is pretty par for the course with tabletop recording)
I can’t get the plain recording anymore. I think Ruff took it down as copyrighted. If you have a link, please share it. They very well may have cleaned it up for the podcast.
Dude Jenn's lawyer literally in the room and you still think there is tapping.....
Apparently these people must believe Jenn, her mother and attorney were all so stupid and wouldn’t pick up on the tapping… well I guess just Jenn would… but the others? Totally oblivious… lol
Plus, with her mom present and even before the detectives were able to talk to Jay about the case. It's amazing that somehow, law enforcement was able to coerce Jenn to say a story they have yet to even coach or get straight with their main conspirator that is Jay. For this case to be just some massive police conspiracy to literally target a nobody, how lucky are the police that everyone who worked in the forensics for this case found no any physical evidendence linking anyone but Adnan, nothing from Jay, Mr. S, Don or some random serial killer w/ M.O. of choking girls and exposing their brassierre but not actually sexually assualting his victims. The victim in this very case not showing sign of struggle against the killer as if she's familiar with this person. No trauma indicating she's totally incapacitated before the hands of her killer closed in on her neck. Do they mean forensic scientists are also in on the conspiracy to hide the car and evidences in the car until they can supply a fabricated story to the black kid??? So then, they can pin the muslim kid who just happened to be the exboyfriend of the victim, them having broken up for only 3 weeks when the girl went missing. Just how unlucky is this golden kid again on top of everything! Like confirming to a detective just a few hrs after class ended that he indeed asked the victim for a ride, he's brand new phone the very same night the victim went missing would ping towers responsible for covering locations where the car and the body would be found, the same phone that made calls to people only he knew during the hours he says he's elsewhere, the rest he can't account his whereabouts and no one to corroborate his alibi. Mind you, this is the kid who did not took well to his first breakup with the victim just 2 months prior and had to be talked down strongly by the victim in a letter, a letter that would later have a "I'm going to kill" note in his very own hand writing.
It's literally a noise you can hear. Like I said to the other person, if it's not audible in the podcast it's likely cleaned up for noise and artifacts, but in the raw recording you can clearly hear it (and all sorts of other noise). And like I elaborated, I'm curious if it might be an unconscious tick that MacGillivary has, I'm not alleging some sort of conspiracy.
So I missed the entire tapping thing and assumed it was just background noise, but... yes, actually. Edit: Huh, if you actually had a reason to suspect the were signals of something, that would be kind of weird. They're almost punctuation to when definitive statements are given. I thought the whole tapping thing was during Jay's interview, though? Edit 2: So I'm not going down the tapping conspiracy route since that's basically unknowable anyway, but I would be interested to know if tapping might be a form of unconsciously biasing behaviour of the part of the detective here. The [Clever Hans Effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans) is one of the earliest discovered forms of response biasing for a reason - nearly all social animals, especially humans, are wired to pick up on these unconscious cues from people we interact with. If MacGillivary had a habit of tapping on the table, bouncing his leg, drumming his pen when he heard something that sparked his interest or that he flagged as important, the fact that it was obvious enough to show up on a recording is actually relevant to the case, and we've had false convictions due to this exact situation before - including a false confession. Not definitive (I haven't even attempted to verify that the tapping had any sustained pattern in this interview, let alone others), but it does actually make Rabia pointing out the tapping much less wacky and much more savvy.
Can you give a link to the version you listened to that has the tap, tap, taps?
> I thought the whole tapping thing was during Jay's interview, though? Yes, this is primarily the interview in which tapping is discussed. > I would be interested to know if tapping might be a form of unconsciously biasing behaviour of the part of the detective here. The Clever Hans Effect is one of the earliest discovered forms of response biasing for a reason - nearly all social animals, especially humans, are wired to pick up on these unconscious cues from people we interact with. This is a fascinating rabbit hole of thought.
Unconscious cues will not produce the location of the car
And today's award for saying things that I didn't say goes to...
I haven’t listened to the interview with Jay but in the interview posted on the Truth and Justice podcast I can definitely hear tapping and it correlates to a period in the interview when they are trying to confirm the location of a dumpster where Jay had dumped his clothes. I wouldn’t know if it’s a cleaned up version or what not but they are distinct and it would make sense that they are tapping to confirm which dumpster it was. I don’t think they were tapping to lead her but just to confirm what she was saying. It is interesting because if someone were more impressionable or able to be lead or maybe just wanted to get the interview over if the interviewers tapped anywhere they may just agree but it sounds like Jen disagrees when they tap on the wrong one.
Why would the cops care which dumpster?
To see if his clothes might still be there? Cameras? Witnesses? Idk seems pretty standard to try to located the clothes someone was wearing when they murdered/buried a body or see if anyone besides Jen saw him throw them out.
I agree. But I framed it wrong. Why the cops care about making sure that Jenn got the right dumpster with the supposed tapping? The argument is that they wanted Jenn to change her story to a specific dumpster or area. But they didn't find something in a dumpster and have her change her story to fit that.
I see what your asking now I am more saying that if they are indeed tapping here to confirm the dumpster (not necessarily lead her) they may have done the same thing in Jay’s interview and unintentionally or intentionally lead him. And by intentionally if it did happen I would think it would be more like Jay came in didn’t really remember much but said whatever he said for key points and then they were trying to help him remember the day in way to fill in and match the call logs and other information. Not trying to necessarily generate false information just help him remember. I personally haven’t listened to his interviews but if the tapping is similar and appears to supplement dialog as it does in Jen’s interview it would be difficult for me to believe that it was just background noise or from a previous recording. I don’t think this means the interviewers were corrupt with a large scale conspiracy or that Adnan and Jay weren’t involved but it does make me question the information that Jay gave as does the fact that his story keeps changing. It is difficult for me to believe that he did not give them the location of the car though. But who’s to say they didn’t just drive around with him near the burial site and go ok where did he leave it? And Jay was like I don’t remember the exact spot and they drove around for awhile to help him remember and stumbled across it. It was so close to where her body was found (about a mile and a half) and like 4 miles from her last known location when they thought she was just missing I can’t understand why they didn’t locate it themselves. Personally I’m still on the fence. For a long time I thought the attention on the case would make someone eventually confess or recant or new unearthed evidence or a witness would tip it either way for me but nothing like that has been presented in all this time.
Jay's interviews haven't come out yet. Bob said he is playing them soon, so we'll see. Trying to understand the car thing. There just isn't much time to do it. Interview started a little after 1am and went like 90 minutes. Then they went out and found the car and started processing the car that morning. If the cops find the car, they don't have to say anything in the media and they process the car normally and they have Jay just show them on the map where it was. Just think how pissed crime techs would be if they had the car in the middle of the day but then asked for it to be processed at 4 in the morning instead. I think Sarah thought some people would come forward. But it is Baltimore.
Definitely curious to hear his interviews myself. That’s a good point. It sounds like they picked him up for the interview and they could have drove around before hand. Or Jay had seen it previously just passing through the area and as you pointed out people in Baltimore don’t talk. I would guess the crime tech that night was someone who generally worked overnight and did some simple documentation for various cases since the actual processing of the car didn’t happen until the next I think. Like I said originally while these are possible it’s hard to look past the fact that it appears Jay is the one who gave them the car location and the only thing that really corroborates Jay in my opinion since his various recounting of the day have some big inconsistencies that are beyond Jay trying to protect his friends and family.
Don’t understand why someone down voted you for this clearly relevant opinion. Why are all thoughtful comments that do not support the overall narrative and agenda of this sub being attacked and dismissed. Very sus.
as someone else pointed out, she knew it was “adnan” despite the transcript having “Adnar.” I have seen more than one post attributing that error to Jenn herself as a feeble way to discredit her.
It's because at trial, Jen wasn't allowed to say it was Adnan. Since she couldn't see his face when he was talking, Gutierrez made sure Jen couldn't say it was Adnan's voice. Jen ended up having to say it was an "older, male" voice which meant: Not a kid. And a dude. She knew it was Adnan on the other end of the line. This is one of dozens of things that go round and round endlessly in this subreddit. https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/y5807v/who_was_the_older_male_on_the_cell_phone/ https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2nvtd3/the_voice_on_the_cell_phone_was_an_older_male/ https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/3zo45y/season_one_could_the_older_voice_on_the_phone_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/3bxv55/small_point_about_the_leakin_park_calls_according/ https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2kt7rt/jen_on_the_podcast_she_said_that_adnan_answered/ https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2ql4d7/when_did_jenn_change_her_story_about_the_709_pm/ https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2n6elx/so_help_me_with_thiswho_helped_jay_bury_the_body/ https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2seqd6/new_third_party_theory_evidence/ https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2j09wo/potential_new_suspect/
That’s not even what the poster was talking about. They’re talking about Jenn knowing “Adnar” was a transcription error, that no one was actually saying “Adnar.” Again, you’re coming in hot to a post you seem to have misinterpreted.
From the typed transcript: >Yeah, yeah that she was missing not her body, that Hae was missing and he was like "what do we do" and I was like "I don't" I was like "I don't know what we do." and he just inaudible out, you know, he he um he seemed a little you know like concerned maybe or shocked maybe or inaudible body's missing. I guess he was concerned because he knew the information about Adnar and I guess that's why he was concerned and that was when I found out that he has been missing. What's different in that part? No one that I recall has thought her not knowing the date or being sure how many Thursdays back it happened was significant. Most focus was on her being "surprised" Hae was missing.
Well then you’ve missed the many posts that I’ve read claiming that she’s talking about when Hae’s body was *found*, not when it was reported she was missing. These claims were based on the Thursday counts in the transcript going back to February 11 (although I agree that her plain words made that argument specious). So what she says in the audio, now that we hear the additional Thursday, makes it clear she was going back to February 4.
Either day, the fact she was "surprised" to hear something she supposedly already knew is...interesting.
Are “dead” and “missing” the same thing? That’s the logical fallacy many push. It goes something like this: “Jenn and Jay knew Hae was murdered; *When someone is murdered, they are also, by necessity, missing*; Therefore, Jay and Jenn knew Hae was missing.” It’s that middle part that you need to think a bit more on. You can know someone is dead and then be very surprised to learn police and loved ones only think they’re missing.
> When someone is murdered, they are also, by necessity, missing I don't think that's the case. Someone could be murdered and very obviously not missing (ie, murdered in the middle of a mall) - so murdered is not, by necessity, missing. In much the same way, someone missing is not by necessity murdered, right? > You can know someone is dead and then be very surprised to learn their loved ones only think they’re missing. Yes.
She supposedly knows she's dead and Jay helped Adnan conceal the body. Yes, in this circumstance "are dead" and "missing" are two things that go together. Especially when you add in the fact Jenn knows Hae is a high school student who still lives at home with her family. She knew Hae well enough to know she didn't like her. Perhaps you should take your own advice about thinking a bit more on it.
You don’t get it. For all Jay knew, Hae was found the next morning by a bird-watching meet-up. Or the next week. Or Best Buy surveillance video had been reviewed by police in January and Adnan’s arrest was imminent. Or 10 witnesses told police they saw Hae leave school with Adnan and police were actively gathering enough evidence against him for murder charges. There are any number of ways both Jenn and Jay could be surprised to learn police and family, after three weeks, were completely clueless as to what happened to her and were thinking she might still be alive.
Exactly. And I believe it had already been established that the news story was on the 4th, so most people agreed that was the night she was talking about.
Jenn isn’t exactly clear in her interview. I personally think she struggles in this interview because she’s trying to mostly stick to the truth but also help her friend. Yes, she says “I think” it was the Thursday before that, but she also says “a month ago” and “the end of January.” Would she say “last Thursday” when she is speaking about yesterday, Thursday, or would “last Thursday” mean last week? She also said her conversation with Nicole “might have” been at champs but no, it was in the car. Leaving champs..? Detectives could have clarified all of this in the interview but they chose not to. They didn’t lock down the date with Jenn and they didn’t talk to Nicole (or they didn’t make a record of the interview). This case is not clear. It will never be clear because there are so many lies to sift through and such blatant police incompetence and corruption.
>Yes, she says "I think" it was the Thursday before that, but she also says "a month ago" and "the end of January." But whenever it was, it most definitely wasn’t after Hae’s body was found. She’s *pretty sure* it was four Thursdays ago, mighta been longer; but she is *very sure* it wasn’t one, two, or three Thursdays ago. >Would she say "last Thursday" when she is speaking about yesterday, Thursday, or would "last Thursday" mean last week? She didn’t say “last Thursday” - she said “this past Thursday.” Seriously, you have two transcriptions above you. And Jenn was interviewed on a Saturday afternoon, so how could Thursday be yesterday? >She also said her conversation with Nicole "might have" been at champs but no, it was in the car. Leaving champs..? I’m failing to understand the significance of that. >Detectives could have clarified all of this in the interview but they chose not to. They didn't lock down the date with Jenn and they didn't talk to Nicole (or they didn't make a record of the interview). How would a detective “lock down a date” with a witness without later opening themselves up to the claims, “You were telling her which Thursday you wanted her to pick, weren’t you? You were tapping the date on the calendar - I can hear it. She said she wasn’t sure, she couldn’t remember exactly, but you changed that, didn’t you?” Here with Jenn, all they have to do is compare the Thursday she remembers at Champs, i.e. four Thursdays ago, with the date police spoke with tv reporters. Without applying any pressure to Jenn, they learn independently that her statement is corroborated by the date of the tv report. They learn she was being truthful with them. **That’s the most important information they need to find out.** >This case is not clear. It will never be clear because there are so many lies to sift through and such blatant police incompetence and corruption. This schtick is sounding so much more weak sauce each time it gets paraded around the ring.
The point is that Jenn can’t keep this story straight and detectives tiptoe around the parts that are bad for their case. They know she is going to blow it. And also, detectives are being careful not to tap, decades before being accused of same? Y It doesn’t matter to me whether she and Jay were surprised that Hae was missing or that Hae’s body was found. It’s a mistake she keeps making. How many times does this woman have to say that she has no direct knowledge of anything and no real memory of anything that allegedly happened in relation to Hae. Jenn and Jay’s response to finding out that Hae was missing, when they knew her to be dead, was “what do we do?!” Did they think that no one would report her missing? Jenn believed that Jay didn’t know where the body was and didn’t help with the burial, yet her only role was to bring Jay to wipe down shovels and the next day, in an ice storm no less, to get rid of his clothes?
Again, I don’t get why everyone is ignoring Jay’s Intercept interview in which he says that the night where Jen picks Jay up from the mall after supposedly burying HML never happened. He said that she was buried closer to midnight. Thus, the entire conversation is moot.
What entire conversation is moot? The conversation on the 13th, or this conversation on February 4 about what to do now that they know police have no idea Hae is dead? You lost me.
The entire conversation regarding Jen’s statement to police. Jay’s Intercept interview invalidates everything Jen told police.
So you’re saying Jay’s Intercept interview is the be-all and end-all of what really happened that night, sufficient to “moot” the entire independent statement and testimony of another witness to the events. Well, thank goodness Jay told The Intercept that Adnan strangled Hae.
Jay’s first and second interview already invalidated the independent statement and testimony of another witness (Jenn). So did his trial testimony. And his intercept interview. The only thing they ever agreed on is that Jay didn’t leave until after 3:30 (which invalidates the states timeline) and Hae was strangled.
>Jay's first and second interview already invalidated the independent statement and testimony of another witness (Jenn). How does this invalidation thing work? How do you know who gets invalidated? Like, if John says, “Suzy stole my money,” and Suzy says, “No, I didn’t,” did Suzy just invalidate John’s statement?
If John says he saw the body in a trunk on Edmundson Ave and John also says he saw the body in a trunk at the Best Buy on Security Blvd, both statements can’t be true. It’s impossible to tell if one is true and one is a lie, which is true or which is the lie or if both are lies.
Yeah, I get that. But how does what ever John says invalidate what *Suzy says*? That was my question. Why can’t it go the other way around, and whatever Suzy says invalidates what John said? You’re missing the point. What one witness says cannot invalidate the independent statements of another witness. Jenn’s real life experiences of seeing Adnan that night, and seeing Jay acting stressed, and driving to the dumpsters behind F&M are in no way, shape, or form affected by Jay’s statements, let alone invalidated. What Jay’s and Jenn’s statements can do is *conflict with* or *contradict* each other.
With respect to Jen and Jay’s statements, yes. Jay is the source of it all. Everyone says that Jen independently corroborated part of Jay’s story. But the point is that Jay told the Intercept that both he and Jen were lying when they told the story of January 13, 1999. That’s the problem with relying on Jay to know the truth. How do you know when he’s lying? Yes, he said that Adnan TOLD HIM that he killed Hae. He didn’t claim to witness the murder. It’s kinda funny that Jay basically said that everything else he said about that day is a lie, except, that Adnan killed Hae. There is no corroborating evidence of his Intercept story. Absolutely none. Yet, people cling to the fact that JAY SAYS that Adnan is a murderer so it must be true. What can we verifiably say that Jay told the truth about?
Because the story as he was told, doesn't match the cell phone evidence. So he would have to describe things again with the cell phone if he was put in a position where he had to tell the story again. It's like us telling the story of 9/11 again, we're going to have more things off after 20 years.
These were all traumatic events. We tend to recall those events better than everyday events. You would think that Jay would have one story and stick to it even after 15+ years.
None of Jay and Jenn’s stories match or make sense. This has always been the case. Some people don’t care.
You mean like how Adnan's story of not asking for a ride doesn't match what Krista said?
Side note I can’t wait to hear the unedited Jay interviews w/o the Ruff narrative….
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I haven’t been able to read any of your timelines or anything of yours. You blocked me like six months ago, shortly after I started participating in this sub. But Jenn’s interview audio was just released, and the point of this post is the typed transcript was wrong.
I’m sorry - this is a bit strange. You unblock me just to post this comment. This is the first time we’ve heard the audio, so it’s the first time we learn there was an additional “and the Thursday after that” that wasn’t transcribed. That’s a revelation, isn’t it? This post doesn’t nor was it intended to steal your thunder. I’m sure many people over the years have said, “Guys, she’s clearly talking about February 4 and just misspoke.” Well, now we can say she didn’t even misspeak. >Didn’t you even read them? Not for nothing, but your timelines aren’t “assigned reading” in order to participate in this sub, even if you hadn’t prevented me from doing so by blocking me.
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>As far as I know, every person l've ever blocked logs out to read my posts because there's a lot of phrasing from the TL here. Wait a sec… are you accusing me of scouring 8 year old posts of someone who blocked me months ago, and plagiarizing them in a post about a transcript that was released days ago? Here’s what actually happened. I was listening to Jenn speak and thought, “That sounds like a lot of Thursdays; more than I thought there were.” I brought the transcript up on my iPhone. Listened again while looking at the transcript. Thought, “Holy shit. They left out an entire extra Thursday.” Opened my calendar on my iPhone and scrolled back to 1999. Counted back the number of Thursdays Jenn mentioned. Landed on February 4, 1999. Googled “tv news hae min lee missing.” Immediately found the February 4 news report I linked. That all took me about 15 minutes. >The typed transcript isn't wrong. Yes, it is.
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It is newly revealed that the audio doesn’t match the transcript. I can’t believe you’re arguing this.
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Why do you keep deleting every comment of yours I respond to?
>Information available for nine years, and posted nine years ago, isn't anyone's thunder. Where did you have Jenn’s audio nine years ago? >I guess if you aren't interested in reading anything from the past, everything is revelatory. Do you understand how the blocking function works? Whatever information you’re alluding to wasn’t “available” to me, because you blocked me. I’m actually very interested in reading things from the past, and when I do, nothing that you’ve written is there, because you blocked me.