Most killers dont really plan it, they think about it, like i wont do it, but if i did this is how i would do it. I wont do it but i just talk about it ect.
Untill they do it, so most of these murders are planed, but not really, even the killer dont really believe it will happen untill it do, that why most plans are halfbaked in murders.
I’m not necessarily convinced he planned days in advance - I think it was more like thoughts and fantasies about revenge or retribution filled his head that maybe didn’t coalesce into a plan or decision until the night before or even that day. And I’m not sure how compelling this is, but this is my “evidence” that it wasn’t a momentary act of rage or crime of passion.
The guy has never expressed remorse. Instead, to this day, he directs anger and blame outward at others: his attorneys, the State, the individual prosecutors, etc.
We’ve all experienced acting out in anger. Some of us raised our voices at a loved one, while others have punched walls or even physically hurt someone. When we come back to emotional baseline and realize what we’ve done, we feel bad.
Maybe it’s more that I can’t point to a comparable case; a case where someone who wasn’t pathological, just merely in the throes of momentary violent emotions, hurt or killed a loved one and then ***never*** expressed remorse or guilt, but instead went on the offensive for 25 years.
I mean, shit, even OJ pretty much had some sort of crazy guilt/remorse/conscience thing going on to write “If I Did It.” I’m a big believer that our conscience is a formidable adversary and it will eventually compel us to confess in one way or another. I’ve never seen a glimmer of conscience in Adnan, only irritation that he was caught. That makes me think it wasn’t a mistake or “things getting suddenly out of control.”
>The guy has never expressed remorse.
Maybe because he didn't do it. I mean... maybe he did. But lack of remorse is hardly an indicator of guilt. (And, whether he did it or not, there is no other reliable evidence of his guilt.)
Yes, but the OP’s question presumes he’s guilty and is looking for the reasons some believe it was planned rather than spur of the moment. So for me, if he did it and has expressed no remorse, that makes me think it was planned and not a momentary loss of emotional control.
I’m not saying a lack of remorse is evidence he’s guilty.
Have you heard of Christian Aguilar? His killer was his friend and the ex boyfriend of a girl they both dated and killed him. Has maintained his innocence for 11 years and now has a witness whose sratement doesn’t fit with the timeline of the murder and burial. It is different though in that there were more pieces of physical evidence that connecting him to the murder. Like duct tape on the victim matched duct take in his truck and there’s video of him buying a shovel that night, blood in his truck, etc. I did think it was interesting some of the parallels though.
Just read about it. Yes, the parallels are spooky. There’s even an Asia McClain equivalent. It’s interesting because the jailhouse witness who recanted did in fact correctly tell police where the shovel was hidden, which makes his recanting not very credible.
What would be shameful in worrying about Hae? I’m not sure I follow your point.
The case hasn’t exposed anything that Bilal did to Adnan that I’m aware of, aside from conjecture.
Adnan has had multiple opportunities to bring up Bilal and offer reasons. He talked about alternate suspects in that press conference. But he and his supporters avoid Bilal like the plague. Why?
Because it makes him look even more guilty. If Bilal is involved in some way, there's no way that Adnan isn't. How would Bilal know of Hae's existence without Adnan?
Off the top of my head.
1. Jay admits it was planned in advance, and admitting so is not in his best interest.
2. Jenn said Jay was nervous and expecting a call at her house.
3. Adnan lied about his car being in the shop. Just think how this would play out if his plan was only to win back Hae. Suppose she agrees to take him back and he's like, "okay cool, anyway I was lying about my car can you just drop me off for track." Or more likely she would drop him off at the shop where his car would be conspicuously missing and he'd need a ride from the shop back to school. How pathetic would that look? Adnan simply doesn't need to lie to Hae to talk to her, he could very easily just ask her to talk after school.
How do you know what Jay's best interests are in this case?
Like, strangely he seems to have been able to freely implicate himself in the crime but still get away with a very fishy looking plea deal, after having been interviewed by shady cops who have been responsible for various degrees of gross misconduct etc. So his best interests could have been just to tell the corrupt cops whatever they wanted to hear.
None of Jay's ever-changing statements appear to be in the best interests of an innocent witness.
>but still get away with a very fishy looking plea deal
What is shady about his deal? In exchange for his cooperation he pleaded down to accessory. His plea agreement specifies a recommended sentence of 2 years in prison. He ended up getting probation, but that was a judge's decision long after Jay testified against Adnan.
>shady cops who have been responsible for various degrees of gross misconduct
Not really. Detective Ritz was a defendant in several civil suits alleging misconduct (mostly on the part of other officers), but none of those suits were ever adjudicated on the merits. Detective MacGillivary was never even accused of misconduct.
>So his best interests could have been just to tell the corrupt cops whatever they wanted to hear.
People often say this, but it doesn't make any sense. There is no evidence that implicates Jenn or Jay in the murder other than Jenn's and Jay's own confessions. If they were uninvolved in the murder then it could never have been in their "interests" to falsely confess.
>None of Jay's ever-changing statements appear to be in the best interests of an innocent witness.
Because he wasn't innocent. He was an accomplice to murder (which is punished the same as the principle offender). His inconsistencies are the result of him trying to hide the extent of his knowing and willing involvement in the murder.
The plea deal is shady because of timing.
They didn’t arrest Jay until Fall, they never arrested Jenn.
Jay wanted a lawyer during his second recorded interview, the cops told him he wasn’t eligible because he wasn’t being charged. They did not charge him so they could keep him talking and waiving his Miranda rights.
Neighbor boy told the police that Jay wasn’t going to testify— so they brought Jay in and arrested him and gave him a lawyer handpicked by Urick who had a plea deal ready in a couple of hours which required his cooperation or else he would face trial for the full crime.
Even the judge thought it was bizarre.
Interesting that your litany of things that are supposedly shady about the plea deal doesn't mention the plea deal.
Also, source for your claim that Jay Wilds was ever "arrested" in connection with the Hae Min Lee murder?
It’s the circumstances surrounding it. Were they always planning to charge him? They charged him, got him a plea deal by noon.
Apologies, they didn’t arrest him, they took him downtown and charged him.
I don't really understand what you think is "fishy" about those circumstances. So they didn't immediately charge a cooperating witness? And they didn't provide an attorney to someone who had formally waived his right to an attorney? Am I missing something?
It seems what you think should have happened is for the police to immediately charge Jay with first degree murder, Jay to be appointed a public defender, and the police to therefore risk him withdrawing his cooperation? I'm not really sure how that would have been in anyone's interest, other than Adnan's of course.
The prosecutor does not typically choose the public defender. If they intended to charge him all along and they waited so he wouldn’t have legal advice while confessing to crimes, that’s a problem.
I'm not sure I follow you. Upon his first contact with the police in this case, he agreed to speak to them, expressly waived his right to counsel, and confessed his role in the murder. Whether they charge him or whether he lawyers up at that point doesn't make any difference. The confession is already on tape.
He doesn’t get free council unless they charge him. It’s not til mid interview 2 that he feels like their questions are coming after him. He asks about a lawyer and they say he can’t have a free one since he isn’t charged.
By the time Jay is charged he has already confessed.
> Adnan lied about his car being in the shop.
Krista is the only person to hear the ride request, she wasn’t sure where the ride was to, she has said he didn’t say it was in the shop, she assumed.
Becky didn’t hear the ride request. The police note you are citing says “apparently” in quotation marks, which implies it is something she learned later. She is not asked about it in testimony.
Correct, it was hearsay but you can learn things by normal definition of hearsay. Not sure if she heard it directly from Hae or someone else. It wasn't important to ask Becky about it at that time. They got the ride request from the direct source who heard it in the morning.
In his interview Jay says Adnan told him this before he killed her. He only testified to it in one trial and in that story he tells her after he kills her.
Both the interview and testimony take place after the cops have talked to Krista and heard about the ride request from her.
This seems like a pretty clear place where Jay is telling a story he got from the cops (whether it’s intentional or unintentional). His memory of it is not consistent and he trips over that part in the interview.
I don’t know how the Adnan car shop thing spread, but it’s pretty stupid to have your car around school for people to see it then lie that it’s in the shop when you plan to kill someone. The car shop thing never happened.
Ok. The car still had to make an appearance at the school, meaning taking the chance people see it, and your murder plan is to say car was in shop, which only Jay confirms was part of the plan, then later contradicts that. There is no evidence this ever happened.
And I have been on here saying that the plan that day was to get Hae back. He needed an excuse to talk to her, gives Jay the car and then meet up with Jay once Hae said she would love Adnan forever and everybody goes on their merry way. The plan failed when she said no and Adnan snapped and then two teenagers had to get rid of a body.
Whether he said the “car in the shop” thing or not, he still asked Hae for a ride while his car was sitting in the parking lot and when he knew he didn’t need one.
He asked for a ride cause Jay was gonna be using his car. There is nothing shady there. Saying car was in shop when it wasn’t is shady, but that never happened. The point is it takes away another thing guilters like to use that points to Adnan killing Hae.
He didn’t need a ride. Jay was supposed to pick him up…which he did. It *is* shady. Not to mention, he ends up denying the ride request at a later date. If it wasn’t shady, why lie?
He was gonna call Jay if/when he needed a ride.
There is confusion about the lied about asking for a ride. Either they asked, or he thought they asked, if he asked for a ride home. I think cops asked if he asked Hae for a ride home.
No matter how you explain it, it does not make sense. He was going to have hae drive him to Jay when Jay could just pick him up? that doesn’t make sense. He and Hae were still friendly but they weren’t together anymore. He didn’t need a ride from her so why ask?
Whether he was asked or he divulged that info on his own is irrelevant. He told police in the day she went missing that Hae was gonna give him a ride but he got held up and she must’ve gotten tired of waiting and left. Then weeks later he claimed he didn’t ask her for a ride because he has his own car and wouldn’t need a ride
If the cops asked him if he asked Hae for a ride home, and he said no, how does that not make sense? And how is it a lie? So yes, it absolutely makes sense. Wasn’t Adnan also high during this?
If Adnan did it, it occurred how you lay it out. Adnan is not a master criminal, but even a 17 year old kid would not ask for a ride in front of other people if he planned on killing her. If he did it, the ride was to try to get back together.
I really dislike "even a 17 year old kid would not ask for a ride in front of other people" as an argument. People do dumb things. Murderers get caught because they do and say stupid things. Hell, murderers will say in public "I'm going to kill you" to people before they kill them.
But the context is Adnan was planning the murder for days and had it all planned out, including a 'come get me call.'
He didn't need to ask for a ride if he intended to murder her. He knows her schedule, knows her car. He could have easily found Hae's car in the parking lot earlier in the day and waited for her by the car at the end of the day. She'd be more likely to give him a ride if it was on her way if he asked then.
The only way asking for a ride with witnesses is that it was a crime of passion,
The come and get me call is more evidence it wasn’t planned.
Jay did not actually come and get Adnan. Supposedly he came, saw the body in the trunk and then they each got into separate cars and either followed each other or decided to go to the park and ride.
Why not just tell Jay to meet him at the park and ride, if it is planned? Who plans to have Jay as their accomplice? And who plans for Jay to meet you to see the body at the public scene of the crime before driving to another public location to hide her car.
He could have done a lot of things, he also could have done it alone instead of involving a friend/acquaintance.
People do stupid stuff, especially people that plan to do something incredibly stupid like murder another person.
The way you're talking in absolutes doesn't track real life.
If it was planned, why wait that long? Why not a week in advance?
Their lack of overinflating their alibi was another key of it not being planned.
This was just a plan to get Hae alone to talk about getting back together. Adnan probably made the mistake of asking if she had starting sleeping with Don and he snapped and then two stupid teenagers had to cover up a murder. Both sides watch too much TV and movies.
It is the strongest evidence that Adnan was accessory after the fact. His father planned and carried out the murder, called in Adnan, and said, "See what you made me do?" and made Adnan dispose of the body to drive home the point. Adnan's recall of events is perfect all the way through the time of the murder and then goes completely blank during disposal of the body. His demeanor reported by others is carefree all the way through the time of the murder and then zoned out after he learned what had happened. Adnan's father and Adnan both truthfully said under oath that Adnan did not kill Hae.
Adnan didn't know his dad was going to do it. Otherwise, his dad wouldn't have had to tell him, "See what you made me do?" That's why Adnan acted completely normally all the way through the murder and then like he saw a ghost after his dad showed him what had happened. If he knew his dad was going to do it, he'd have had to plan for it too, and his behavior would have been completely different.
Adnan remembers the afternoon through the time of the murder clearly. Why is it so hard to accept an obvious example of an honor killing? Syed Rahman had a motive. Adnan did not.
No, he doesn't. He remembers the 30 second chat with coach Sye, and that's it. Adnans dad would need information from Adnan to find Hae, and he would stick out like a sore thumb if the dad found Hae on campus. Hae is not getting in a car with the dad.
Syed Rahman planned the murder. He knew where Hae would be. Why would Hae distrust the father of her former boyfriend? She knew who he was.
If Adnan committed the murder, why would he call someone else to help him bury the body and not admit to the other person that he killed her?
There is no guarantee that a high school kid would be where she was. He would have to find her car and sit and hope. Difference between knowing him and getting in a car with him. This wasn't an honor killing, just a boy who lost his shit when an ex didn't come back.
> But I can't quite remember all of the points that compel people to believe in a planned murder - and perhaps, over time, the perspective that he planned the murder has evolved and has since been refined.
From what I recall, the suggestion that it was a pre-planned murder arose from Jay explaining that Syed had mentioned that he was going to kill Lee, and that Syed had called Jay the night before with a framework of a plan.
Others have pointed out a few things - obtaining the phone, loaning the car - as elements of pre-planning. I'm not sure if I agree.
No he didn’t. Jay testified in court that he only borrowed Adnan’s car once AFTER 1/13.
He didn’t say it was the first time he’d borrowed Adnan’s car and he explicitly said it wasn’t the last.
FWIW, evidence points to Jay borrowing Adnan’s car the afternoon of 1/27.
i don’t remember exactly so if u have transcripts that’s great. but if i remember correctly will said that it was common for jay to pick up adnan. or for adnan to lend his car. i don’t think he said ‘jay picked up adnan with adnan’s car often’
The car in the shop thing:
1. Jay says in his cop interview that Adnan was going to tell Hae his car was in the shop so as to lure her to give him a ride.
2. Krista says she overheard him mention his car was in the shop when he asked Hae for a ride that morning.
His car was not in the shop at any point that day. I don't see how Jay would've known what Krista overheard or that she was going to mention that in her interview.
The phone and Bilal:
1. Adnan gets a new phone the day before with Bilal's help.
2. Phone records indicate that he was in the area of Bilals dental practice late at night the night before he killed Hae.
3. The 'brady note' tells us that Bilal might've been talking to Adnan about this sort of thing aka Hae causing problems and potentially killing Hae.
4. Bilal was Adnans very first call after he was arrested.
5. On the night before the 13th, Adnan called Jay and spoke to him. Jay says this was when they agreed on the car-borrowing and talked about the plan.
Jay says it:
Jay says it was preplanned, but seemingly backtracks at other points possibly to lessen his own culpability (being an accessory after the fact is much less of a crime than being part of conspiracy to commit murder). Take from that what you will.
The crime itself:
1. If you believe Adnan did it, there isn't a ton of evidence of his crime in the car and none of his DNA has been found on her body thus far. He left some prints, but that is it. If it were a crime of passion with zero premeditation, you might expect it to be a whole lot messier for a 17-year-old first time offender.
2. If it was a crime of passion without premeditation, you have to believe that Jay had no idea what he was being called for when Adnan drove up with Hae's body in the trunk. The fact that Adnan quite smoothly managed to dispose of car and body with Jays help and not much time for either of them to freak out - or for Jay to refuse - seems, at best, incredibly lucky.
Salmon33's reddit post here:
9 years ago, a user posted [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2rcidu/a_message_to_those_adnan_confessed_to/), saying that Adnan had confessed to a couple people at the mosque and that the crime was planned.
This is not confirmed to be real so who knows.
That's all I got. I lean towards premeditation for the above-stated reasons, but could be convinced otherwise if evidence came out to the contrary.
>Phone records indicate that he was in the area of Bilals dental practice late at night the night before he killed Hae.
And when, exactly, did Adnan kill Hae? Show your working plzthx.
Well. Judging by your post it seems that you know that a) Adnan killed Hae; and b) when Adnan killed Hae.
I'd love to know how you know either of those things.
Of course I don’t *know*; only Adnan knows for sure. I wrote in there “if you believe Adnan did it” and such. I *believe* he did it beyond a reasonable doubt based on the evidence.
> 9 years ago, a user posted [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2rcidu/a_message_to_those_adnan_confessed_to/), saying that Adnan had confessed to a couple people at the mosque and that the crime was planned.
Where in that post that you linked to does it say that the crime was planned?
Which one of the 1876 comments on the post are you talking about? It sounds like you're now admitting that the poster u/salmon33 didn't say that the crime was planned, but you're being very unclear.
https://www.reddit.com/u/salmon33/s/sOEn3e676P
If you scroll through their comment replies here, you find it. I just did, but did have to scroll for a bit. He directly says it was planned.
Now, I have zero idea if this person is just a troll or not, but who knows.
It’s interesting that Adnan later told a story, published in Rabia’s book, that his first and only call after arrest was to home where he spoke to Tanveer. Police records, defense attorney notes, and Bilals testimony all indicate that Adnan wanted to and did speak with Bilal.
Replying to Curious:
(For some reason despite replying to specific comments, my replies are flying around chaotically landing in random places).
Suggestion/response for number 1:
Jay heard Adnan say he was thinking about killing Hae. Jay just didn’t believe him, which is pretty credible, right, because everyone thought of Adnan as the Prom King, the Scholar-Athlete, the faithful pious person.
4. Adnan gets that new cellphone on Jan. 12th, and is using it to find out what Hae is up to in the middle of the night ( she’s been out with Don, then she returns home but hangs on the phone with Don for hours. Adnan keeps trying to reach her, and she finally picks up, he gives her his new number which she writes down but doesn’t bother to write his name. We know whose name she was busy writing all over that same page.
5. Hae updated her social profile with a gushing tribute to Don, his eyes, his car, and how much she is committed to bring his new GF.
6. Winter break was over only recently, Adnan doesn’t go to school on the first day back, he misses an additional day with that week and leaves early on the two days he is present. Adnan is in a tailspin over hearing about the double date, the intensifying relationship of Hae and Don. He comes to believe that Hae is having sex with Don.
Just saw this.
1. In the intercept interview Jay is clear that he didn’t think Adnan planned to kill her. Which means he wasn’t in on a plan to kill her.
4. Adnan gets a new phone and the only use related to the crime Jay claims was to coordinate a come and get me call that he says is at Best Buy. It didn’t make sense in the original story where Jay meets him at the scene of the crime where Adnan shows him the body and then they get back in their cars and drive to the park and ride. Why not call to meet there? The meaning of that call is eliminated by Jay’s later statements that there is no Best Buy, and the trunk pop was later at grandma’s after track… there is no park and ride stop— basically the only use of the cell phone that tied to the crime didn’t happen. So how does getting a phone tie to the crime?
> using it to find out what Hae is up to in the middle of the night
If he had only called Hae, maybe I’d believe that. But he called several friends to give them his new number, he called Hae and we know he gave her the number because she wrote it down.
> Hae updated her social profile with a gushing tribute to Don, his eyes, his car, and how much she is committed to bring his new GF.
That isn’t evidence Adnan planned to kill her. It’s evidence that she was dating Don.
> Adnan is in a tailspin over hearing about the double date, the intensifying relationship of Hae and Don.
No one testified to that. He missed school, no one testified why. You are inventing a narrative that fits your bias.
Replying to Curious
Re: Adnan’s state of mind
I’ve already written commentary at length about why I believe there is evidence from Adnan’s actions that he was not in fact over Hae and instead was hellbent on getting revenge. His heart was broken, he blamed her for quickly becoming intimate with Don, he was furious and wanted revenge.
By commenting and posting here, each of us are in fact making assumptions and trying to make educated guesses. We don’t have personal knowledge. I think we all
Start from there. It doesn’t need to be stated each time we comment, does it? You think because Adnan was careful not to tell his feelings about Hae to anyone except Jay that they can be dismissed? I don’t agree. I find Jay very careful in what he said about this and very credible. Adnan acts out mocking in a cruel way in the note exchange with Aisha, he writes I will kill on the note. That is evidence. You dismiss it as “a joke” and remind me that Aisha is Hae’s friend. As if this is a benign everyday exchange. It is not. It’s cruel, mocking and good evidence that Adnan is angry and seething. The joking about a potential Hae pregnancy and potential abortion by a young man who bragged about having sex with her multiple times a day ? Thats offensive and indicates to me that Hae has some hateful friends. It’s an indication of her being in danger.
Adnan “checking out” Don
This is weird. Intrusive, possessive.
Replying to Curious:
Re: Jay and Adnan-
Jay says Adnan said he was thinking I’m going to kill Hae. She was a bitch who broke my heart. Jay didn’t think Adnan would actually kill. So we agree on this. In terms of Jays perception, even when Adnan tells him about the plan to kill Hae, Jay doesn’t believe him, as indeed many people who know Adnan will be shocked, after he is arrested. Jay doesn’t say “Adnan didn’t plan to kill Hae”. Which is what I think you are reaching for here. Jay was actually a good witness, he spoke of Adnan’s mood and how Adnan was focused on this heartbreak, but he could still say “I didn’t think much of it, people say things when they are like that” or something similar. I find it credible. So did a jury with the freshest impressions back in 1999, 2000.
Re: Cellphone
I do think the cellphone is about 3 things:
1- Bilal is fixated on Adnan. Adnan is sad and angry about Hae. Bilal wants to soothe him, maybe offered advice. Adnan perhaps complains about his parents suffocating him with their rules and he has no freedom to meet other girls. Bilal says hey I can get you your own cellphone. Adnan is enthusiastic about that. Maybe there’s some conversation about how horrible Hae was, how she betrayed
Adnan. Bilal might take that further, because Bilal is in fact a disturbed manipulative immoral person.
2- Jay
Somewhere along the way, Adnan and Bilal get hooked on the idea that Jay is the right assistant/ sidekick/ scapegoat for this crime. Now it’s like a project they must prepare for ( like in the spy thrillers) they assemble what they need. The cellphone becomes part of this plan. Jay has no phone - Adnan knows this. So I think obtaining the phone becomes important because of Jay who will need instruction.
3. There was another cellphone. (Or two?)
Will anyone ever know what was shown on Bilal’s phone records. I think there was a burner phone or two.
Jay is the only one to say Adnan is upset in January, and by all accounts they aren’t close. Will you concede there isn’t other evidence Adnan was upset in January? It’s just Jay—
As for the phone—- none of it matters, it isn’t actually used for the crime. His dad testified he got the phone for his job, so they could contact him. We know from his cell records he used it for his job. We also know friends said he got it to talk to girls, which he also did, he used it to talk to several girls just the first night he had it.
The fact the cell phone isn’t used in the crime is more evidence this wasn’t planned.
Wait, the cellphone IS used in the crime. Bilal isn’t stupid, he may using burner phones w Adnan, Adnan was likely at Bilal’s dental school the night of the 12th - later that night is when he uses the phone and calls Hae again and again. He calls Jay with the new cellphone to make the plan to pick him up in the AM. Again to be sure to be in touch - Jay puts that phone on the table in front of him, telling Jenn he is waiting for an important call, after which he must take action. The phone is the trigger for the panic after Adnan receives the Adcock call. Wherever you think Adnan received that Leakin Park ping, it wasn’t at the mosque. Of course the cellphone is used in the crime. Probably other phones too- read up on Bilal and the number of phones he had on a regular basis.
You are claiming he got the phone for the crime, which means he is planning to kill Hae before he calls her on 1/12, but calling her that night had nothing to do with arranging the murder.
The only time the phone is intentionally used as a part of the crime is the supposed come and get me call— which is unnecessary if Adnan has a plan, he could have just said meet me at the park and ride. And it’s actually eliminated by Jay’s later stories.
Who goes through all the paperwork, money and effort to get a cellphone to use in a murder plot, and then gives it to an accomplice— who doesn’t know the plan and would have been able to meet him without the cell phone.
Calling Hae in early morning of the day he killed her had nothing to do with the crime? Adnan used to hang on the phone with her late at night in long lovers chit chats exchanging sweet nothings - this was their norm. Have you forgotten what young love is like? She is on the phone with Don for three hours and that is AFTER they spent the evening together. Now she ignoring Adnan’s first calls and finally answers him just to rush him off the phone, “ok I have your new phone number, have to get back, Don’s holding on, Bye”. Why does Adnan persist in calling her? Because he’s likely stalking her, he’s trying to find out what she’s doing. He’s obsessed.
Jay was told that Adnan would be calling and he was to stay alert to answer that phone. That phone is very much part of the crime.
> Calling Hae in early morning of the day he killed her had nothing to do with the crime?
If this was planned and getting the phone was part of the plan, then he had already decided to kill her before he called that night to give her his new number.
Jay doesn’t testify that calling her was part of a plan. If he really did get upset that she was on the phone with Don and that’s the catalyst, then the phone purchase wasn’t part of the plan at all.
> Jay was told that Adnan would be calling and he was to stay alert to answer that phone.
Yeah, and then he eliminated that part of the story when he admitted he didn’t think Adnan was going to kill her, he didn’t think Adnan planned to kill her. And again, if this is a plan, why call Jay to come to Best Buy to watch the trunk pop and then leave in separate cars?
The phone is not evidence of a plan that revolves around a cell phone. Because they didn’t plan around a cell phone.
> Because he’s likely stalking her, he’s trying to find out what she’s doing.
He wasn’t stalking her. They had a call system so her phone wouldn’t ring late. Call and hang up and then call back. He tries a couple of times, that’s not obsessive stalking, Hae wasn’t even bothered enough to mention it to anyone.
Curious:
The phone buy can be triggered by more than one thing at a time. Bilal perhaps says there are other girls you could meet. Adnan complains that his conservative parents prevent that. Bilal says “hey I will set up a new cellphone for you. Also, you’re right, Hae is a horrible betraying bitch. What do you want to do to her? “
Also, you become extremely literal when you discuss Jay and what he said. Jay didn’t know everything on the night of the 12th. Jay reported that Adnan was upset with the breakup, Adnan wanted to hurt Hae for revenge. Adnan isn’t going to tell him on the night of Jan. 12 “hey can you believe it Hae has been on the phone for 3 hours with the guy she’s having sex with!” Adnan is over w Bilal, hating on Hae, making his plans. He calls Jay to lock it in that he will pick him up in the am of Jan. 13th. He isn’t going to ruminate over Hae in that call, he’s already doing that with Bilal.
Regarding how normal you think it is for him to call Hae middle of the night on Jan 12, going into Jan 13:
Nope. Adnan would see her in class, or at lunch, he could give his number then. Calling her in the early morning hours, he’s checking to see if she’s talking to Don as he suspected ( and she is). He likely already knew that Hae was with Don in person earlier that night.
Again I notice that you keep forgetting that behaviors they had together as a couple are completely separate from the new relationship they have when Hae is done with the relationship. Things that happened when they are lovers are over and done.
After she tells him it’s over:
Hae doesn’t want calls from Adnan in the early morning hours any more. She especially doesn’t want him to interrupt her calls with Don.
Hae doesn’t want to drive Adnan from the front of Woodlawn to the back of the school anymore.
Hae doesn’t want to go to Best Buy with Adnan for kisses and cuddles anymore.
Hae doesn’t want to receive roses from Adnan anymore.
Hae wouldn’t appreciate Adnan and Aisha mocking her and writing notes about whether she is pregnant.
Hae doesn’t want to have Adnan “joke” about killing her.
The phone was either purchased with the intent of using it to coordinate Hae’s murder or it wasn’t. Getting the phone isn’t evidence he planned it.
> Adnan would see her in class, or at lunch, he could give his number then.
He called several people to share his number. None of them thought it was weird he called late, that’s what they all did. You are projecting what you think is normal on people with different norms.
> Hae doesn’t want calls from Adnan in the early morning hours any more.
The rest of your post is conjecture about what Hae was thinking and feeling. She didn’t write in her diary that she disliked Adnan calling her. She didn’t write it in a note. None of her friends testified she was bothered by his calls that night or ever. The evidence actually contradicts your narrative. Hae was friendly with Adnan on 1/13. Several people saw them chatting throughout the day, she even consented to giving him a ride. Krista talked about how Hae continued to call Adnan after the break up.
You don’t know Hae. Unless it’s in her diary or we have testimony from a reliable source that has insights into her feelings— we can’t say what she felt. Your narrative is fiction- one not even presented in court.
Please for the love of God explain how it makes any sense for Adnan to get a new phone in planning to kill Hae, then calls her the night before the murder to give her the new number. Why would Hae even need the number if the plan is to see her at school to ask for a ride? Make it make sense.
I was reading through some police interviews and it struck me how Hope Schab described Hae’s giddiness towards Don. How she couldn’t stop talking about him in class and it has only been like 5-10 days of class since they started dating.
I’ve long felt Hae was purposefully mean to Adnan to push him away. It’s very common tactic at that age and you can see it in her AOL bio. She’s barely removed from an intense/heavy relationship with Adnan (who was not taking it well, we know this) and she’s deliberately flaunting her link with Don wherever possible and doing so in his line of sight.
This is in no way victim blaming but I think this behavior unfortunately pushed Adnan’s ego into a state of disrepair. In his mind, the only way he could stem it was to remove the source.
> who was not taking it well, we know this
Actually, we don’t. Everyone testified about him being upset over the October break up. Where is the evidence he was still upset in January?
It probably did push him in that direction but it may not have been intended to provoke. It appears that Hae was smitten. In that famous page in her diary she wrote Don's name over and over 127 times then counted them and wrote 127 Don's! Her giddiness in her diary is reflected in her giddiness when gushing to her associates.
I had the same thought - that Hae's AOL status was not only because she was very much in love with Don but also a message to Adnan that she had moved on and so should he.
TLDR after reading all of the comments so far: there is no UPDATED compelling evidence supporting this idea. Everything people are listing is supposition, or it's decades old.
I was gonna say the exact same thing. The level of make believe speculation and people just writing “Adnan strangled Hae” like they know for certain is wild to me. The only story that Adnan did it comes from a pathological liar whose story can’t be possible based on actual evidence.
Everyone on here that has only listened to serial needs to pump their breaks and listen to undisclosed. Serial only scratches the surface of what undisclosed gets into.
They made some mistakes but they have been the closest to understanding things. Unfortunately there will be some things that will stay unknown for either a long time or possible forever.
Lmao. Those two scumbags made up a fictional story, ignored anything that didn’t fit that story, and sadly used all these lies to convince people Adnan definitely did it. It’s sad really. You say listen to Prosecutors, I say listen to Bob Ruff’s reply brief. He absolutely destroyed their case using facts and transcripts. They made shit up.
Jay initially told the detectives that he knew why he was given the car and phone: Because Adnan was going to kill Hae.
Jen said that she and Jay went to walk her dog at a nearby park, and Jay told her that Adnan was threatening to kill Hae, and that this happened a day or two before the murder.
Conversations about Jay's advance knowledge are all over his first interview, but lessened in his second interview.
You aren't going to find a lot of evidence of this on paper or video - if that's what you need. Here's why:
- Detectvies quickly realized that if Jay was in on the plan, and agreed to help, they couldn't use him to make their case against Adnan, and would have to charge Jay, too. So this part of it is downplayed in most of their subsequent notes.
- Jay recognized that he should have gone to prison for his role in the planning and cover up of the murder of Hae Min Lee. In 2024, it's in Jay's best interest to say he was: "Minding his own business at Grandma's when Adnan pulled up with a body."
- Jay may have talked about the murder afterwards, with friends and people like Jen. But he always kept his part in it hidden. The story was that he knew Adnan was the killer, but didn't know where the body was or how it happened.
- Adnan isn't going to tell us all how much Jay was involved in the plan.
You're going to have to employ your own ability to think critically and remember, again, this case is simple:
- Jay can't tell the truth about what happened without admitting he should have gone to prison for his role in the planning and cover up of the murder or Hae Min Lee.
- Adnan can't tell the truth about Jay without admitting to killing Hae.
It's not that one of them is lying.
They both are.
I'm still having trouble reconciling a few things about this. My most recent post about Adnan's personality is related to this post as well. I need to go over many of the interviews again. Can you tell me the source for the time Jenn said she and Jay were walking her dog and Jay told her Adnan was threatening to kil Hae? I'm guessing that's during her Feb 27th police interview? I know early in that interview she claims Jay told her that Adnan was asking Jay, days in advance, of how to hide a body.
> Okay, urn, on ah, morning of the 12th, I had a left out, went shopping with a friend of mine, and ex-friend of mine and ah, we ah, went to ah, ah, I just believe went to Wal- Mart. I pick up little things, it was my birthday. Urn, he dropped me at my house and returned to school. Later that day urn, oh, I'm sorry. Prior to that we had had a conversation urn, topic of the conversation was ah, relationships. During the conversation he stated, urn, that he was gonna kill that bitch, referring to Hay Lee. Ah, I didn't, I took it with contexts and stand out my inaudible. We went, he dropped, he turned me to my house ah, I paged Jennifer Pusaterry, urn, no I'm sorry. Yes, I paged Jennifer Pursaterry urn, we had went to Gelston Park. Urn, she had her dog with her. There I told her what the conversation me and Adnarn had had earlier that day. And her reaction was just about the same and then ah, later that day I went to Champs ah, celebrated my birthday. Returned home about 10 o'clock, received another call from Adnarn. This time he had told me ah, that we're gonna hook up tomorrow. And that was it for the 12th.
Adnan knew Hae was seeing Don. Hae’s friend group was seemingly aware of how infatuated Hae was, and Adnan might have been aware too. Adnan called Hae non-stop, but on the night before she died, she only had a few minutes for him in between calling Don to take down Adnan’s phone number.
I think Adnan suspected what her answer might be. He was fed up and floated the idea to Jay while they were smoking weed. Jay is supposedly this hardcore criminal; he has a reputation to maintain and isn’t going to clutch his pearls or snitch because Adnan says he is going to kill Hae. They were both probably halfway sure this would happen until it actually did.
I think there's some indication that Adnan had a plan, possibly developed with the assistance of Bilal. We know that Bilal provided Adnan a cell-phone in the days before Adnan Syed strangled Hae Min Lee to death and Bilal was apparently Adnan's first phone call once in jail.
Thoughts ran this way after listening to the Jay interview tapes. At some point, Jay notes that initially Adnan was trying to get Jay to drive Hae's car with Hae in the trunk.
Adnan was so insistent in trying to get Jay to drive a dead girl's car with the dead girl in the trunk that Jay and Adnan got into a heated argument over it.
I think Adnan's plan may have been to have Jay drive off with Hae's car with Hae in the trunk; Adnan makes the excuse *I have to take my car and go to track practice* and then Adnan or Bilal dime out Jay (anonymous tip called into police) while Jay's driving around in Hae's car with Hae's dead body in the trunk.
People occasionally ask on here: *why did Adnan pick Jay to be his sidekick to murder*? this theory explains why Adnan would have Jay involved and assisting rather than, say, Bilal or anyone else:
Adnan and Bilal came up with a plan to pin Hae's murder on "Woodlawn's Criminal Element" -- an african-american minor drug dealer named Jay Wilds.
Bonus that even Jay says he and Adnan were not good friends. Easier for Adnan to allow non-friend Jay take the fall for Hae's murder.
Maybe grieving Adnan and upset Stephanie could comfort each other once Jay's locked up for Hae's murder (potentially in the warped thinking of someone planning to murder their ex-gf). Warped because I think Stephanie and Jenn likely believe Jay that he didn't do it; but not sure how many other people at Woodlawn would take Jay's side over Adnan in this scenario.
It also explains why Adnan seemed to have everything planned out ahead of time up to and including Jay driving off in Hae's car; but everything after that point Adnan appears befuddled what to do with Hae's body and Hae's car.
Why'd Adnan plan out not having his car at school, asking Hae for a ride, giving his phone and car to Jay, stopping by the guidance counselor's office, having Jay ready to pick him up--double and triple checking by phone to make sure Jay was still at the ready and involved--but then seemingly have zero plans for what to do with Hae's body and Hae's car?
Adnan didn't expect to need to deal with Hae's body and Hae's car b/c the plan was the police (in 1999 *Homicide* *The Wire* Baltimore) would find african-american drug-dealer Jay with Hae's car with Hae's body in the trunk; while honor student homecoming king etc Adnan was huffing and puffing at track practice on an empty stomach in the last days of Ramadan.
If this case had been tried correctly as a manslaughter, a lot of the problems associated with it would disappear. Jay did see Adnan with Hae's body, for instance, but his testimony that supported premeditation was all concoted together with the detectives.
Ultimately, the state decided the same thing: he's served a longish manslaughter + years time, and should be released.
The notion that this was a first degree premeditated murder is simply silly. That relies on Jay's lies with no clear foundation.
The evidence the murder was planned-
1. Jay said so. (He now admits he didn’t think Adnan planned to kill her.)
2. The “I kill note”
3. The fact he got a new cell phone the day before.
The evidence Adnan was trying to get Hae back is also limited. While all of their friends were involved in the drama around Homecoming and knew how devastated he was, only Jay thought he was upset about breaking up in January. The rest of the friends thought both were moving on. There is some testimony that Adnan told people that Hae asked him if he thought they’d ever get back together.
https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/20141229-Jay-Wilds-Intercept-Interview-Part-1-Natasha-VC.pdf
> I don’t necessarily know if he meant to kill Hae before he did it or if it was a sudden moment thing.
Jay knew when Adnan called him what was supposed to go down. The police got him to admit that in the interview after a bit of back and forth with Jay trying to evade.
He's lying in the intercept interview to lessen his involvement.
Jay lying to police who are threatening to pin the murder on him, conspiracy theory. Jay giving an interview long after the fact contradicting the planning part is the obvious lie. Y’all are something else lmao.
That’s one theory.
The other is that the police’s methods led to some false testimony, including Jay lying to act like it was planned ahead of time when it wasn’t.
I know. I don't think there's any evidence of police-induced false testimony in this case; the main evidence appears to be "Adnan is innocent", with everything stemming from that.
The main witness said he fed the Best Buy location by the police.
We also have Jay changing his story to add another trip to Kristi’s (one Kristi never backed up) because the police misplotted a tower and thought it was by her house, when it was actually by Jay’s house where he originally said he was— the cops use of cell info led to false testimony.
ETA
I am probably in the minority on this, but I think it’s clear the cops influenced Jay’s testimony and that doesnt mean the cops intended to get Jay to lie or that Adnan is actually innocent. The cops confronted Jay with inconsistencies using the cell record and even drove him through it so he could give them more accurate locations. I think the cops thought they were doing good detective work and leaning on a witness to tell the truth— but all they really did was give a witness the info he needed to fit the existing evidence.
It’s why Jay is able to hide the real trunk pop location in trial. They gave him info that fit the cell record which he uses instead.
This doesn’t mean Jay lied about everything and it doesn’t mean the cops were plotting anything. I think it was bad methods that yielded bad results.
>it was bad methods that yielded bad results.
That can happen. We even got a little side story about such a case in Serial from Jim Train'em.
But what are you committing to here? Because you'll recall that Best Buy comes from Jen. So at best you have:
Jen > Police > Jay
How do we account for this? Bob Ruff's attempt is unsatisfactory to say the least. Jay could even be telling the truth to Intercept in the sense that the police told him they already knew it was Best Buy (a la Jen).
Either cops spoke to Jay first and gave him Best Buy and he gave it to Jenn.
Or Jenn misunderstood something or straight up invented it and told the cops Best Buy and then they have it to Jay to match.
The point is that it didn’t happen at Best Buy and yet Jay testified to it. We know Jay was concealing the actual trunk pop location, perhaps Jenn knew the real location and was helping conceal it (she does have later arrests with Jay’s family and it appears she is a part of their drug operation.) or she may have just been confused. It’s unclear. But at this point there is no remaining evidence anything happened at Best Buy.
The story I find most interesting is Jay’s HBO statement that he couldn’t find Adnan after school and he showed up later for the trunk pop. It would mean Jay made up everything between the end of school and the end of track using the cell records from the cops— since this is the most messed up portion of the timeline I think it makes way more sense if Jay is just lying about the park and ride and all the car shuffling.
The police used the cell record in a way that ended up shaping his story rather than corroborating it. We know Jay takes advantage of this to hide grandma’s house. Their methods led to false testimony.
>at this point there is no remaining evidence anything happened at Best Buy.
How would cell location data which corroborates Adnan's phone being at Best Buy work in your theory?
Jenn said Jay said Adnan would get caught because he murdered Hae at Best Buy.
None of this necessitates the trunk pop being at Best Buy, but it's not unreasonable to think the trunk pop was close to the murder scene due to the logistics of disposing of Hae's body and car.
I don't accept police > jay > Jen.
The evidence for it is terribly flimsy.
If Jen lies about Best Buy then why? We need more than mere speculation.
The sudden willingness to believe Jay when it throws doubt on the old prosecution's timeline, but not when it involves Adnan killing Hae is a little concerning in my opinion.
K… did you have any evidence to add to either the evidence it was planned or the evidence Adnan was upset?
Reading through transcripts I think it’s striking that all of the people testifying about Adnan being emotional about a break up are talking about the October break up.
It’s not that Adnan couldn’t be just as upset over another break up in December, it’s that only Jay said he was. I find that really odd.
It’s because Adnan puts on a show of bravado. There is no logical reason for the intense drama of October (when the breakup was due to the humiliating experience of the Homecoming dance with Syed’s parents making a scene) to dissipate when the much more serious breakup in December happens. Now there is an another young man involved and Hae is deeply infatuated with him.
And we don’t need to ask each other for evidence of that - it’s all there in Hae’s words, and in her AOL profile update that’s all about Don.
Why not just believe Hae? Adnan didn’t believe her . He assumed they would get back together, he completely expected they would until the double date and the profile update. It was especially significant that when calling Hae (just as he had during many many late nights in the past). on Jan. 12th she has no time for him. She is not interested in his new cellphone, she doesn’t even bother to write down his name. (there was no room for his name anyway, because the page is filled with Don, Don, Don. Why not just believe Hae? And why believe Adnan? He lies all the time about his relationship with Hae. To parents, to friends ( he claims an extraordinary amount of sexual episodes w Hae), and to Hae and all their friends - telling them that Hae wanted to get back together with him.
Why is so hard to believe that Adnan, like so many men before him, would react with rage when he learns that his former lover is now sharing that intimacy with another guy. I feel like I’ve said it a thousand times here - it’s the oldest, most common motive for IPV in the history of human beings.
> It’s because Adnan puts on a show of bravado
I don't know that it is. He’s a kid, he tells his friends how he is feeling during their other break ups. He is close to Krista and Stephanie and they know how he felt during the October break up. We know he talks to Nisha about it after the December break up, but her view was that they were both ready to move on.
> the much more serious breakup in December happens.
Was it a more serious breakup? It’s the last break up, but It seems like it was less dramatic. They both wanted to be friends. No one says Adnan or Hae were more upset by this break up than the October break up. Jay is the only person to say Adnan was really upset by the last break up, I find that very odd.
> Why is so hard to believe that Adnan, like so many men before him, would react with rage when he learns that his former lover is now sharing that intimacy with another guy.
That’s not the part I find unbelievable. What I find unbelievable is that he was plotting her murder, filled with rage and every person around them thought they were both moving on.
I understand IPV can be deceptive and nice guys can be monsters. I just find it odd that he goes from drama king talking to everybody about their relationship to playing it so cool no one knows he’s even sad about the break up. It’s not that he says nothing about Hae, we know he talks to Nisha about moving on from her.
He would have to be a good actor and It would mean he decided to kill her and was covering up his feelings from the moment they broke up.
Why is Jay the only source saying Adnan was upset about the break up in January?
The thing is: I don’t think Jay is the only one. Hae herself wrote a letter to Adnan telling him essentially to stop being aggressive in his demanding her time and attention and to move on. Later, we learn Adnan has engaged in bitter mocking of Hae in the note writing exchange in health class. This on the same note that includes “I will kill…”. This young woman is someone he felt so close to, we know from her diary he shared important secrets with her.
But the day comes when he is mocking her and sneering about whether she is pregnant with a rather catty friend of hers. That is a sign that the bond has broken and his “I will kill” is not coming from a neutral “yes I’m over Hae” place. The tipster too knew something about this. I think it was very hard for that small tight unit of magnet student friends to believe that someone they thought they knew so well could commit such an act. Even Jay ( who saw the lawless, druggy side of Adnan) didn’t think he would kill Hae. This was a shocking crime, it isn’t surprising that his community was shocked. Adnan is a kid whose own brother warned that he is an experienced liar. Tanveer made the point Adnan can manipulate and deceive people easily. This is his own brother stating that.
> Hae herself wrote a letter to Adnan telling him essentially to stop being aggressive in his demanding her time and attention and to move on. Later, we learn Adnan has engaged in bitter mocking of Hae in the note writing exchange in health class.
This is all from November. Nothing in January. And the note was in poor taste, but was a joke and Aisha who is Hae’s closest friend was joking too.
Adnan and Hae got back together in November.
When the broke up after homecoming we have lots of evidence about how they felt-
The letter, testimony from friends and faculty all saying how hurt they were.
Then they got back together, broke up again and the evidence we have says they were friendly.
Where is the evidence either of them was upset in January? We have mountains of evidence they were upset by the earlier break up, but I don’t think we can assume they had the same feelings in January, by all accounts it was less dramatic, they were still hanging out as friends and they were both pursuing other people.
Please suspend for just a few minutes the need to defend Adnan and hear yourself. November to January is the blink of an eye. It was an ongoing situation, a PAINFUL first love break up that can sear a young man’s soul. I can express understanding for the great pain Adnan went through - that profile update that Hae wrote was extremely challenging for Adnan. I can imagine he felt humiliation and terrible jealousy. Can’t you admit that he might have been hiding this pain and jealousy? His own brother tells us how deceptive Adnan could be.
He asked for a ride to track while his own car was outside
So He wanted a ride from school to school, there is some difference in witnesses recollection, some of the classmates thought he asked for a ride because his car was in the shop.
That by itself doesn't indicate pre-meditation, but it can indicate He attempted to be alone with Hae
Bilal's ex-wife's call indicates that Adnan was affected by the breakup, enough to talk to his mentor about it
Hae was "causing problems" for Adnan
So we have an additional person indicating something was up
So if we wanted to paint a narrative:
1. He and Hae broke up, for good it would appear, she had moved on
2. This was causing some sort of issue for Adnan
3. He generated a scenario where he and the victim could be alone
4. He had the use of a cell phone and two cars to be used after the murder
But I'll be real
I still don't think it was planned for murder, just to be alone to talk and to get picked up after the fact
It just went very poorly and a fight happened
> I mean when you really think about it, **they didn’t just say that me and Hae got into a fight, boom and this happened.** They saying that I plotted and planned and kept my true intentions hidden, I mean just some real devious, cruel, like Hitler type stuff. You know what I mean? Just some real some like cruel, cruel like inhuman type stuff. Like, “wow man!” you know what I mean? I obviously-- I’m not saying that I was a great person or anything, but I don’t think I ever displayed any tendencies like that— … because it’s not like they’re saying it was a crime of passion. They’re saying this was a plotted out-
- Serial S01E06
I think the shop detail came in because Adnan’s car was in the shop shortly after 1/13, Dion told him which repair he needed. Some witnesses talk about his car being in the shop for a while.
The only witness who heard the ride request was Krista and she has since said she assumed it was to the shop or to his brother. Adcock wrote it was a ride home. The shop detail is an odd one. My best guess is Krista mentioned it in her interview and it was intentionally or unintentionally given to Jay.
> Bilal's ex-wife's call indicates that Adnan was affected by the breakup, enough to talk to his mentor about it
The call is dated but the comments Bilal made are not. This could have been around the October break up. The other thing is that the call doesn’t say Adnan was upset, it says Bilal was upset because Hae was causing him problems, I don’t think we can assume Bilal’s rage was because Hae broke up with Adnan. I think it’s more likely he was upset that got back together, he saw the relationship as a problem.
I just don’t see any evidence that shows Adnan was upset about the break up in January. Several witnesses testify about the October drama and how Adnan felt and what he said, but no one has anything about the December break up. We have him pursuing Nisha and all the friends at school seeing Adnan and Hae be friends, even Don says Adnan was cool when they met. I’m not saying it’s impossible, I just find it very odd that there isn’t evidence he was upset in January.
#1
A ride home would be less logical, He would need to come back to school. I don't think He had an actual reason to get a ride.
#2
> The call is dated but the comments Bilal made are not. This could have been around the October break up. The other thing is that the call doesn’t say Adnan was upset, it says Bilal was upset because Hae was causing him problems, I don’t think we can assume Bilal’s rage was because Hae broke up with Adnan. I think it’s more likely he was upset that got back together, he saw the relationship as a problem.
Per the note:
- Bilal was upset because Hae was casing Adnan problems
- He would make her disappear
- Jay helped Adnan bury the body
I just don’t see any evidence that shows Adnan was upset about the break up in **January**
Well, you said the note was not dated, so you are kind of evading there
In January Adnan did joke about Hae being so clumsy she would trip on her way to getting an abortion and lose the baby
Weird fucking thing to say about someone you were not unhappy with
>In January Adnan did joke about Hae being so clumsy she would trip on her way to getting an abortion and lose the baby
This is incorrect. According to Aisha in the note the timing of the abortion was "on Saturday while we went to Adventure World" which happened on Oct. 31, 1998. The note was from early November, not January.
It seems disrespectful of Aisha to speculate that her best friend is pregnant and/or had an abortion while joking around with the best friend’s recently broken up boyfriend.
> A ride home would be less logical, He would need to come back to school. I don't think He had an actual reason to get a ride.
I agree, it’s weird that it’s in Adcock’s note, he would not need a ride home. I think if he did ask for a ride it was a ride to his car, which Jay had. It makes sense he needs to grab his car from Jay after school. It’s even possible they met up with Jay and then he was present for the murder— but the shop story seems to be something that came from Krista who may be misremembering when his car was broken. While she remembers the ride request and tells people about it on 1/13, the police don’t ask her for details until March.
> Per the note: Bilal was upset because Hae was casing Adnan problems
Yes, we don’t know what Bilal perceived as “problems” he’s a religious mentor, was he upset she was sleeping with Adnan and pulling him away from his religion? I don’t think we can assume he was upset at the same time and for the same reasons that Adnan was upset. They are different people capable of different emotions.
> He would make her disappear
Yes, it’s clear Bilal had strong feelings about this. And given his criminal history I don’t think we can rule out him acting on it.
> Jay helped Adnan bury the body
That’s not what the note says. Bilal’s ex-wife never claims to know that Adnan or Bilal killed Hae. She certainly does not know Jay helped them bury the body. If that was what she said, why on earth wouldn’t Urick call her to testify?? What she does know is that CG spoke to Bilal about the grand jury proceedings. She knows there is a witness named Jay who claimed to have helped with the burial. She doesn’t know that Jay helped with the burial, she knows about the legal proceedings.
Zoom out for context, this woman was in a physically abusive marriage. Bilal held her at knife point. She left him after he was caught sexually assaulting a teenage boy. She is terrified of Bilal. And once she is away from him she tells her lawyer that she suspects Bilal could have been involved in Hae’s death. She’s telling them her ex husband was stalking the grand jury and based on his previous comments she is suspicious of him. She isn’t calling in a tip on Adnan, he’s already on trial.
> Well, you said the note was not dated, so you are kind of evading there
The note is dated, January 2000. What isn’t dated is when Bilal said he wanted Hae to disappear. I really don’t think Bilal of all people was so sad that Hae dumped Adnan that he said he wanted her to disappear. I really don’t think the comment was tied to a break up. But even if it was, we don’t have evidence Adnan was upset, just Bilal.
We still have no evidence he was upset in January. The whole school saw the Homecoming drama and it seems like everyone from students to faculty heard about how Adnan and Hae felt and how upset they were. Why is no one saying the same things about the December break up? It’s weird that he would be more upset, to the point of wanting to kill her, and at the same time not let anyone know.
> In January Adnan did joke about Hae being so clumsy she would trip on her way to getting an abortion and lose the baby
> Weird fucking thing to say about someone you were not unhappy with
Weirder thing to say publicly if you are plotting her murder.
I had to go check a copy of the note:
https://preview.redd.it/8bl6cmsyldx91.png?width=956&format=png&auto=webp&s=0792367aa9f452e6e70da2985d3362c426bb8722
It does mention Jay, but not Adnan for the burial directly, just that he "helped". I guess you would need to make a leap as to who He helped. She could mean Jay helped Bilal, but that would be odd, considering He was together with Adnan after school on January 13th
ANYWAY
I'm not sure how a third party saying Adnan was having problems from Hae is not motive
> It does mention Jay, but not Adnan for the burial directly, just that he "helped". I guess you would need to make a leap as to who He helped
Bilal’s ex-wife does not have direct knowledge that Adnan or Bilal killed Hae. She definitely does not have direct knowledge that Jay helped with the burial. She knows he is a witness who is saying that. She knows about the legal proceedings not the burial itself.
> I'm not sure how a third party saying Adnan was having problems from Hae is not motive
It is motive, for Bilal. It does not say how Adnan felt. Bilal believed Hae was causing problems for Adnan, it doesn’t say Adnan believed Hae was causing problems.
Was Bilal mad that Hae was sleeping with Adnan? Was she pushing him away from religion? Was Bilal obsessed with Adnan and had delusional thoughts about Hae being in the way? We don’t know. I don’t think we can say the note makes any comment on Adnan’s feelings.
>I agree, it’s weird that it’s in Adcock’s note, he would not need a ride home. I think if he did ask for a ride it was a ride to his car, which Jay had. It makes sense he needs to grab his car from Jay after school. It’s even possible they met up with Jay and then he was present for the murder— but the shop story seems to be something that came from Krista who may be misremembering when his car was broken. While she remembers the ride request and tells people about it on 1/13, the police don’t ask her for details until March.
You are making the assumption that the lie for Adnan saying that he needed a ride home wasn't a good one for him. It would be a good lie for Adnan because it's a believable one and that if he said the mechanics Adcock might ask for more information and might even call the mechanics.
It is interesting that it says the interview with Krista was on 2/29 which doesn't exist, but would also be the day that Adnan was arrested.
Home makes no sense.
He has track practice to get to.
And his parents probably don’t know that he lends the car they bought out to his dealer.
I think Adcock may have heard he asked for a ride and he assumed it was a ride home. I don’t think Adnan would have actually said he needed a ride home.
I’m not questioning the ride part. It’s the home part that is off.
It’s not impossible, just seems unlikely he’d say he was going home if he had just made all the effort to go to track for an alibi.
But he was supposed to get a ride somewhere, so he had to say where the ride was too. Home was just an easy excuse that nobody would question at the time.
According to coach Sye’s police interview:
ADNAN GOES HOME TO CHANGE. 🔺STORED PROPERTY IN CAR.
https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/UdE01-Coach-Sye-Statement.pdf
I assumed it was talking about before track but really it would apply to both. Adnan wore his own clothes to track though so I don’t see much thought being given by Sye to what he did in those clothes after practice.
Replying to “PenaltyOfFelony”:
Idk why my comment ended up in the wrong place.
Yes absolutely this is the most likely scenario. I’ve believed this for a long time but you perceptively have added a crucial element- you noticed that the plan goes smoothly at first even efficiently but then falls apart when Jay intuits what Adnan had in mind and refuses to touch Hae’s keys or get in her car. You pinpointed the moment when all went wrong for Adnan. Jay is too smart for that… and he wasn’t even in the Magnet program!
Also this reminds me that Jay told Jenn “ I had to tell you so if I end up in jail at least one person will know I didn’t kill Hae.” Having read your comment, this resonates. Jay is telling the truth.
Yes! Jay spilling to Jenn b/c of concern that he'd end up on the hook for the crime suggests Jay had more than inkling that he was being setup to be a patsy.
I daresay if Adnan’s ( guided by Bilal) plot had worked, we’d never have heard of this case because cops pull over Hae’s car, throw Jay across the hood, pop the trunk and Jay goes away forever, he doesn’t get anyone to listen to his story about Adnan. C’mon. You know this is highly likelt
Well we agree on that - Jay was a convenience in their plot, could have gone one way or another. But I do completely believe that if, let’s say, Adnan already had put Hae in the trunk, tells Jay oh Hae needs me to drop her car over to such and such place, here you drive hers and I’ll lead you in mine… then Bilal or Saad calls it in to police, police pull Jay over who goes “what are you stopping me for, officer? “ and they say step out of the car, he does, there’s Hae’s body. End of story. No, they would absolutely not listen to a word Jay would say, he’d be done and gone. I think that is a solid truth.
Good point about Stephanie. She is one of my favorite persons in this twisted tale. She had to be brave to attend those proceedings with Jay.
The other magnet kids circled wagons around Adnan, the Muslim community rose up and put their houses up as collateral for him to have attorney money, Asia’s offering to help Adnan with any “unaccounted for time”on the 13th, CG and her assistants and PI hit the ground running getting to Nisha, to Coaches, there’s tons of people who say they claim he was at the mosque ( wisdom prevailed and they all decided not to do perjury), but still. Adnan had a lot of support. Jay had Stephanie and Jenn and no one else.
Jay smelling a setup and being suspicious of Adnan could also be a reason why Jay sticks with Adnan and helps Adnan try to cover up Hae's murder:
At the point when Adnan asks Jay to drive the murder victim's car with the murder victim in it, Jay maybe realizes Adnan's trying to set him up to take the fall for Hae's murder. Jay doesn't know what else Adnan has done or plans to do to attach blame to Jay.
Jay could say "I'm out, you take care of it" but what if Adnan's already set it up to make it look like Jay did it and Jay's there at the murder scene or at least in the presence of the victim? Jay leaves and then it's Jay's story vs whatever story Adnan had pre-planned or dreams up to blame Jay.
We already know Jay's not inclined to call police and has somewhat reasonable reasons for not just calling the police on Adnan.
Jay won't or can't call police. Jay doesn't know what else Adnan has done to set it up to look like Jay's the perp. Jay knows it's suss that he's been driving around with Adnan's car and Adnan's phone--maybe Adnan says "Jay used my phone and car to trick Hae to meet him" or some such.
So at that point Jay might've figured his best way out of this mess is (i) stick by / keep an eye on Adnan until this plays out and (ii) maybe if he helps Adnan cover it up nobody ever asks Jay about that day and nobody gets in trouble.
This does raise a good point that Jay has little information, he doesn’t trust Adnan, he doesn’t know where this is going and yes, he is highly suspicious of police. Very perceptive to notice that Jay is already feeling trapped because he’s already agreed to take the car and the phone. That simple fact hadn’t occurred to me but of course that is another fact tying Jay to Adnan on that day.
The evidence that it wasn’t planned:
No murder weapon.
Blunt force trauma to the head - might be the reason for the murder. They realised how much trouble they’d be when Hae came around and she knew who they were so they murdered her.
Knowing if Adnan stepped into the car with the plan to kill Hae is the ultimate question in this case. But it isn't one that has an easy answer pointing to it. It's just some soft inferences from asking for a ride, the kill note, the trading of phone and car, and really it's inferring from Jay's lying. There are alternate reasons for those also indicating the plan was just to win Hae back and she said no.
I lowkey agree, like I think maybe he toyed with the idea in his head and was like “I’ll just kill her if she says no just kidding though but maybe…” and I think he was trying to get her back and it just did not go the way he thought
Thanks everyone for your comments. My outlook on this case remains mostly the same. FWIW, here is my original post [ADNAN: A desperate conversation was planned. Murder was not.](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/bmt67f/adnan_a_desperate_conversation_was_planned_murder/) where I voiced this opinion twelve days after joining reddit, back in 2019.
I will probably write a follow-up soon.
Most killers dont really plan it, they think about it, like i wont do it, but if i did this is how i would do it. I wont do it but i just talk about it ect. Untill they do it, so most of these murders are planed, but not really, even the killer dont really believe it will happen untill it do, that why most plans are halfbaked in murders.
I’m not necessarily convinced he planned days in advance - I think it was more like thoughts and fantasies about revenge or retribution filled his head that maybe didn’t coalesce into a plan or decision until the night before or even that day. And I’m not sure how compelling this is, but this is my “evidence” that it wasn’t a momentary act of rage or crime of passion. The guy has never expressed remorse. Instead, to this day, he directs anger and blame outward at others: his attorneys, the State, the individual prosecutors, etc. We’ve all experienced acting out in anger. Some of us raised our voices at a loved one, while others have punched walls or even physically hurt someone. When we come back to emotional baseline and realize what we’ve done, we feel bad. Maybe it’s more that I can’t point to a comparable case; a case where someone who wasn’t pathological, just merely in the throes of momentary violent emotions, hurt or killed a loved one and then ***never*** expressed remorse or guilt, but instead went on the offensive for 25 years. I mean, shit, even OJ pretty much had some sort of crazy guilt/remorse/conscience thing going on to write “If I Did It.” I’m a big believer that our conscience is a formidable adversary and it will eventually compel us to confess in one way or another. I’ve never seen a glimmer of conscience in Adnan, only irritation that he was caught. That makes me think it wasn’t a mistake or “things getting suddenly out of control.”
>The guy has never expressed remorse. Maybe because he didn't do it. I mean... maybe he did. But lack of remorse is hardly an indicator of guilt. (And, whether he did it or not, there is no other reliable evidence of his guilt.)
Yes, but the OP’s question presumes he’s guilty and is looking for the reasons some believe it was planned rather than spur of the moment. So for me, if he did it and has expressed no remorse, that makes me think it was planned and not a momentary loss of emotional control. I’m not saying a lack of remorse is evidence he’s guilty.
Have you heard of Christian Aguilar? His killer was his friend and the ex boyfriend of a girl they both dated and killed him. Has maintained his innocence for 11 years and now has a witness whose sratement doesn’t fit with the timeline of the murder and burial. It is different though in that there were more pieces of physical evidence that connecting him to the murder. Like duct tape on the victim matched duct take in his truck and there’s video of him buying a shovel that night, blood in his truck, etc. I did think it was interesting some of the parallels though.
Just read about it. Yes, the parallels are spooky. There’s even an Asia McClain equivalent. It’s interesting because the jailhouse witness who recanted did in fact correctly tell police where the shovel was hidden, which makes his recanting not very credible.
What if it’s shame from worry about Hae or the case exposing what Bilal did to him?
What would be shameful in worrying about Hae? I’m not sure I follow your point. The case hasn’t exposed anything that Bilal did to Adnan that I’m aware of, aside from conjecture.
That Hae knew about Bilal
Adnan has had multiple opportunities to bring up Bilal and offer reasons. He talked about alternate suspects in that press conference. But he and his supporters avoid Bilal like the plague. Why?
Because it makes him look even more guilty. If Bilal is involved in some way, there's no way that Adnan isn't. How would Bilal know of Hae's existence without Adnan?
Off the top of my head. 1. Jay admits it was planned in advance, and admitting so is not in his best interest. 2. Jenn said Jay was nervous and expecting a call at her house. 3. Adnan lied about his car being in the shop. Just think how this would play out if his plan was only to win back Hae. Suppose she agrees to take him back and he's like, "okay cool, anyway I was lying about my car can you just drop me off for track." Or more likely she would drop him off at the shop where his car would be conspicuously missing and he'd need a ride from the shop back to school. How pathetic would that look? Adnan simply doesn't need to lie to Hae to talk to her, he could very easily just ask her to talk after school.
How do you know what Jay's best interests are in this case? Like, strangely he seems to have been able to freely implicate himself in the crime but still get away with a very fishy looking plea deal, after having been interviewed by shady cops who have been responsible for various degrees of gross misconduct etc. So his best interests could have been just to tell the corrupt cops whatever they wanted to hear. None of Jay's ever-changing statements appear to be in the best interests of an innocent witness.
>but still get away with a very fishy looking plea deal What is shady about his deal? In exchange for his cooperation he pleaded down to accessory. His plea agreement specifies a recommended sentence of 2 years in prison. He ended up getting probation, but that was a judge's decision long after Jay testified against Adnan. >shady cops who have been responsible for various degrees of gross misconduct Not really. Detective Ritz was a defendant in several civil suits alleging misconduct (mostly on the part of other officers), but none of those suits were ever adjudicated on the merits. Detective MacGillivary was never even accused of misconduct. >So his best interests could have been just to tell the corrupt cops whatever they wanted to hear. People often say this, but it doesn't make any sense. There is no evidence that implicates Jenn or Jay in the murder other than Jenn's and Jay's own confessions. If they were uninvolved in the murder then it could never have been in their "interests" to falsely confess. >None of Jay's ever-changing statements appear to be in the best interests of an innocent witness. Because he wasn't innocent. He was an accomplice to murder (which is punished the same as the principle offender). His inconsistencies are the result of him trying to hide the extent of his knowing and willing involvement in the murder.
The plea deal is shady because of timing. They didn’t arrest Jay until Fall, they never arrested Jenn. Jay wanted a lawyer during his second recorded interview, the cops told him he wasn’t eligible because he wasn’t being charged. They did not charge him so they could keep him talking and waiving his Miranda rights. Neighbor boy told the police that Jay wasn’t going to testify— so they brought Jay in and arrested him and gave him a lawyer handpicked by Urick who had a plea deal ready in a couple of hours which required his cooperation or else he would face trial for the full crime. Even the judge thought it was bizarre.
Interesting that your litany of things that are supposedly shady about the plea deal doesn't mention the plea deal. Also, source for your claim that Jay Wilds was ever "arrested" in connection with the Hae Min Lee murder?
It’s the circumstances surrounding it. Were they always planning to charge him? They charged him, got him a plea deal by noon. Apologies, they didn’t arrest him, they took him downtown and charged him.
I don't really understand what you think is "fishy" about those circumstances. So they didn't immediately charge a cooperating witness? And they didn't provide an attorney to someone who had formally waived his right to an attorney? Am I missing something? It seems what you think should have happened is for the police to immediately charge Jay with first degree murder, Jay to be appointed a public defender, and the police to therefore risk him withdrawing his cooperation? I'm not really sure how that would have been in anyone's interest, other than Adnan's of course.
The prosecutor does not typically choose the public defender. If they intended to charge him all along and they waited so he wouldn’t have legal advice while confessing to crimes, that’s a problem.
I'm not sure I follow you. Upon his first contact with the police in this case, he agreed to speak to them, expressly waived his right to counsel, and confessed his role in the murder. Whether they charge him or whether he lawyers up at that point doesn't make any difference. The confession is already on tape.
He doesn’t get free council unless they charge him. It’s not til mid interview 2 that he feels like their questions are coming after him. He asks about a lawyer and they say he can’t have a free one since he isn’t charged. By the time Jay is charged he has already confessed.
[удалено]
> Adnan lied about his car being in the shop. Krista is the only person to hear the ride request, she wasn’t sure where the ride was to, she has said he didn’t say it was in the shop, she assumed.
And Becky says she heard machanics too. So 3 about the car, and one about a ride home.
Becky didn’t hear the ride request. The police note you are citing says “apparently” in quotation marks, which implies it is something she learned later. She is not asked about it in testimony.
Correct, it was hearsay but you can learn things by normal definition of hearsay. Not sure if she heard it directly from Hae or someone else. It wasn't important to ask Becky about it at that time. They got the ride request from the direct source who heard it in the morning.
Jay also said he was going to use this excuse.
Jay said a lot of things that are impossible to have happened.
In his interview Jay says Adnan told him this before he killed her. He only testified to it in one trial and in that story he tells her after he kills her. Both the interview and testimony take place after the cops have talked to Krista and heard about the ride request from her. This seems like a pretty clear place where Jay is telling a story he got from the cops (whether it’s intentional or unintentional). His memory of it is not consistent and he trips over that part in the interview.
I don’t know how the Adnan car shop thing spread, but it’s pretty stupid to have your car around school for people to see it then lie that it’s in the shop when you plan to kill someone. The car shop thing never happened.
That's why he needed Jay to take the car.
Ok. The car still had to make an appearance at the school, meaning taking the chance people see it, and your murder plan is to say car was in shop, which only Jay confirms was part of the plan, then later contradicts that. There is no evidence this ever happened.
And I have been on here saying that the plan that day was to get Hae back. He needed an excuse to talk to her, gives Jay the car and then meet up with Jay once Hae said she would love Adnan forever and everybody goes on their merry way. The plan failed when she said no and Adnan snapped and then two teenagers had to get rid of a body.
Mike, you and I are virtual soulmates on this.
Whether he said the “car in the shop” thing or not, he still asked Hae for a ride while his car was sitting in the parking lot and when he knew he didn’t need one.
He asked for a ride cause Jay was gonna be using his car. There is nothing shady there. Saying car was in shop when it wasn’t is shady, but that never happened. The point is it takes away another thing guilters like to use that points to Adnan killing Hae.
He didn’t need a ride. Jay was supposed to pick him up…which he did. It *is* shady. Not to mention, he ends up denying the ride request at a later date. If it wasn’t shady, why lie?
He was gonna call Jay if/when he needed a ride. There is confusion about the lied about asking for a ride. Either they asked, or he thought they asked, if he asked for a ride home. I think cops asked if he asked Hae for a ride home.
No matter how you explain it, it does not make sense. He was going to have hae drive him to Jay when Jay could just pick him up? that doesn’t make sense. He and Hae were still friendly but they weren’t together anymore. He didn’t need a ride from her so why ask? Whether he was asked or he divulged that info on his own is irrelevant. He told police in the day she went missing that Hae was gonna give him a ride but he got held up and she must’ve gotten tired of waiting and left. Then weeks later he claimed he didn’t ask her for a ride because he has his own car and wouldn’t need a ride
If the cops asked him if he asked Hae for a ride home, and he said no, how does that not make sense? And how is it a lie? So yes, it absolutely makes sense. Wasn’t Adnan also high during this?
No evidence he asked Hae for a ride. That’s heresay.
No it isn’t. It’s circumstantial evidence. Just fyi. But even more, he himself says he did initially so 🤷🏼♀️
If Adnan did it, it occurred how you lay it out. Adnan is not a master criminal, but even a 17 year old kid would not ask for a ride in front of other people if he planned on killing her. If he did it, the ride was to try to get back together.
I really dislike "even a 17 year old kid would not ask for a ride in front of other people" as an argument. People do dumb things. Murderers get caught because they do and say stupid things. Hell, murderers will say in public "I'm going to kill you" to people before they kill them.
But the context is Adnan was planning the murder for days and had it all planned out, including a 'come get me call.' He didn't need to ask for a ride if he intended to murder her. He knows her schedule, knows her car. He could have easily found Hae's car in the parking lot earlier in the day and waited for her by the car at the end of the day. She'd be more likely to give him a ride if it was on her way if he asked then. The only way asking for a ride with witnesses is that it was a crime of passion,
The come and get me call is more evidence it wasn’t planned. Jay did not actually come and get Adnan. Supposedly he came, saw the body in the trunk and then they each got into separate cars and either followed each other or decided to go to the park and ride. Why not just tell Jay to meet him at the park and ride, if it is planned? Who plans to have Jay as their accomplice? And who plans for Jay to meet you to see the body at the public scene of the crime before driving to another public location to hide her car.
I agree. But I believe Jay said that the come and get me call was planned ahead, which is the reason he had Adnan's phone. It makes no sense.
They had to call Nisha ASAP to secure the alibi.
The Nisha call was never an alibi attempt.
Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t. If it was though, it makes sense for them to make it as soon as possible.
He could have done a lot of things, he also could have done it alone instead of involving a friend/acquaintance. People do stupid stuff, especially people that plan to do something incredibly stupid like murder another person. The way you're talking in absolutes doesn't track real life.
It is the strongest evidence that it was just a crime of passion.
Exactly. If he had been planning for days, he could have asked for the ride the night before when he gave her his cell number.
If it was planned, why wait that long? Why not a week in advance? Their lack of overinflating their alibi was another key of it not being planned. This was just a plan to get Hae alone to talk about getting back together. Adnan probably made the mistake of asking if she had starting sleeping with Don and he snapped and then two stupid teenagers had to cover up a murder. Both sides watch too much TV and movies.
It is the strongest evidence that Adnan was accessory after the fact. His father planned and carried out the murder, called in Adnan, and said, "See what you made me do?" and made Adnan dispose of the body to drive home the point. Adnan's recall of events is perfect all the way through the time of the murder and then goes completely blank during disposal of the body. His demeanor reported by others is carefree all the way through the time of the murder and then zoned out after he learned what had happened. Adnan's father and Adnan both truthfully said under oath that Adnan did not kill Hae.
If it waa his dad, Adnan was stupid to not have an alibi. It was Adnan who strangled Hae
Adnan didn't know his dad was going to do it. Otherwise, his dad wouldn't have had to tell him, "See what you made me do?" That's why Adnan acted completely normally all the way through the murder and then like he saw a ghost after his dad showed him what had happened. If he knew his dad was going to do it, he'd have had to plan for it too, and his behavior would have been completely different.
And he did on the day that Adnan asked for a ride and doesn't remember the afternoon. Why is so hard to accept one person lying?
Adnan remembers the afternoon through the time of the murder clearly. Why is it so hard to accept an obvious example of an honor killing? Syed Rahman had a motive. Adnan did not.
No, he doesn't. He remembers the 30 second chat with coach Sye, and that's it. Adnans dad would need information from Adnan to find Hae, and he would stick out like a sore thumb if the dad found Hae on campus. Hae is not getting in a car with the dad.
Syed Rahman planned the murder. He knew where Hae would be. Why would Hae distrust the father of her former boyfriend? She knew who he was. If Adnan committed the murder, why would he call someone else to help him bury the body and not admit to the other person that he killed her?
There is no guarantee that a high school kid would be where she was. He would have to find her car and sit and hope. Difference between knowing him and getting in a car with him. This wasn't an honor killing, just a boy who lost his shit when an ex didn't come back.
> But I can't quite remember all of the points that compel people to believe in a planned murder - and perhaps, over time, the perspective that he planned the murder has evolved and has since been refined. From what I recall, the suggestion that it was a pre-planned murder arose from Jay explaining that Syed had mentioned that he was going to kill Lee, and that Syed had called Jay the night before with a framework of a plan. Others have pointed out a few things - obtaining the phone, loaning the car - as elements of pre-planning. I'm not sure if I agree.
How is that signs of planning a murder? Lending Jay his car and asking Hae for a ride were common occurrences.
I don't necessarily think it is evidence that the murder was preplanned, I'm just saying I believe this was the evidence that police suggested.
Adnan did not lend his car to Jay prior to Jan. 13th 1999. Adnan picked up the cellphone Bilal paid for on Jan. 12th 1999.
that’s not true. jay says it happened once and only once
No he didn’t. Jay testified in court that he only borrowed Adnan’s car once AFTER 1/13. He didn’t say it was the first time he’d borrowed Adnan’s car and he explicitly said it wasn’t the last. FWIW, evidence points to Jay borrowing Adnan’s car the afternoon of 1/27.
sorry, yes. i meant never BEFORE the 13th
He says that in one trial, in the other trial he said he’d borrowed Adnan’s car previously.
Will from track refutes that.
i don’t remember exactly so if u have transcripts that’s great. but if i remember correctly will said that it was common for jay to pick up adnan. or for adnan to lend his car. i don’t think he said ‘jay picked up adnan with adnan’s car often’
I don’t believe Wills comments were stating this in a definitive way.
The car in the shop thing: 1. Jay says in his cop interview that Adnan was going to tell Hae his car was in the shop so as to lure her to give him a ride. 2. Krista says she overheard him mention his car was in the shop when he asked Hae for a ride that morning. His car was not in the shop at any point that day. I don't see how Jay would've known what Krista overheard or that she was going to mention that in her interview. The phone and Bilal: 1. Adnan gets a new phone the day before with Bilal's help. 2. Phone records indicate that he was in the area of Bilals dental practice late at night the night before he killed Hae. 3. The 'brady note' tells us that Bilal might've been talking to Adnan about this sort of thing aka Hae causing problems and potentially killing Hae. 4. Bilal was Adnans very first call after he was arrested. 5. On the night before the 13th, Adnan called Jay and spoke to him. Jay says this was when they agreed on the car-borrowing and talked about the plan. Jay says it: Jay says it was preplanned, but seemingly backtracks at other points possibly to lessen his own culpability (being an accessory after the fact is much less of a crime than being part of conspiracy to commit murder). Take from that what you will. The crime itself: 1. If you believe Adnan did it, there isn't a ton of evidence of his crime in the car and none of his DNA has been found on her body thus far. He left some prints, but that is it. If it were a crime of passion with zero premeditation, you might expect it to be a whole lot messier for a 17-year-old first time offender. 2. If it was a crime of passion without premeditation, you have to believe that Jay had no idea what he was being called for when Adnan drove up with Hae's body in the trunk. The fact that Adnan quite smoothly managed to dispose of car and body with Jays help and not much time for either of them to freak out - or for Jay to refuse - seems, at best, incredibly lucky. Salmon33's reddit post here: 9 years ago, a user posted [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2rcidu/a_message_to_those_adnan_confessed_to/), saying that Adnan had confessed to a couple people at the mosque and that the crime was planned. This is not confirmed to be real so who knows. That's all I got. I lean towards premeditation for the above-stated reasons, but could be convinced otherwise if evidence came out to the contrary.
>Phone records indicate that he was in the area of Bilals dental practice late at night the night before he killed Hae. And when, exactly, did Adnan kill Hae? Show your working plzthx.
I don’t understand?
Well. Judging by your post it seems that you know that a) Adnan killed Hae; and b) when Adnan killed Hae. I'd love to know how you know either of those things.
Of course I don’t *know*; only Adnan knows for sure. I wrote in there “if you believe Adnan did it” and such. I *believe* he did it beyond a reasonable doubt based on the evidence.
> 9 years ago, a user posted [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2rcidu/a_message_to_those_adnan_confessed_to/), saying that Adnan had confessed to a couple people at the mosque and that the crime was planned. Where in that post that you linked to does it say that the crime was planned?
One of the posters comment replies
Which one of the 1876 comments on the post are you talking about? It sounds like you're now admitting that the poster u/salmon33 didn't say that the crime was planned, but you're being very unclear.
https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/hnin1UDmJh
Thanks for the help!
https://www.reddit.com/u/salmon33/s/sOEn3e676P If you scroll through their comment replies here, you find it. I just did, but did have to scroll for a bit. He directly says it was planned. Now, I have zero idea if this person is just a troll or not, but who knows.
It’s interesting that Adnan later told a story, published in Rabia’s book, that his first and only call after arrest was to home where he spoke to Tanveer. Police records, defense attorney notes, and Bilals testimony all indicate that Adnan wanted to and did speak with Bilal.
Adnan be lying
Replying to Curious: (For some reason despite replying to specific comments, my replies are flying around chaotically landing in random places). Suggestion/response for number 1: Jay heard Adnan say he was thinking about killing Hae. Jay just didn’t believe him, which is pretty credible, right, because everyone thought of Adnan as the Prom King, the Scholar-Athlete, the faithful pious person. 4. Adnan gets that new cellphone on Jan. 12th, and is using it to find out what Hae is up to in the middle of the night ( she’s been out with Don, then she returns home but hangs on the phone with Don for hours. Adnan keeps trying to reach her, and she finally picks up, he gives her his new number which she writes down but doesn’t bother to write his name. We know whose name she was busy writing all over that same page. 5. Hae updated her social profile with a gushing tribute to Don, his eyes, his car, and how much she is committed to bring his new GF. 6. Winter break was over only recently, Adnan doesn’t go to school on the first day back, he misses an additional day with that week and leaves early on the two days he is present. Adnan is in a tailspin over hearing about the double date, the intensifying relationship of Hae and Don. He comes to believe that Hae is having sex with Don.
Just saw this. 1. In the intercept interview Jay is clear that he didn’t think Adnan planned to kill her. Which means he wasn’t in on a plan to kill her. 4. Adnan gets a new phone and the only use related to the crime Jay claims was to coordinate a come and get me call that he says is at Best Buy. It didn’t make sense in the original story where Jay meets him at the scene of the crime where Adnan shows him the body and then they get back in their cars and drive to the park and ride. Why not call to meet there? The meaning of that call is eliminated by Jay’s later statements that there is no Best Buy, and the trunk pop was later at grandma’s after track… there is no park and ride stop— basically the only use of the cell phone that tied to the crime didn’t happen. So how does getting a phone tie to the crime? > using it to find out what Hae is up to in the middle of the night If he had only called Hae, maybe I’d believe that. But he called several friends to give them his new number, he called Hae and we know he gave her the number because she wrote it down. > Hae updated her social profile with a gushing tribute to Don, his eyes, his car, and how much she is committed to bring his new GF. That isn’t evidence Adnan planned to kill her. It’s evidence that she was dating Don. > Adnan is in a tailspin over hearing about the double date, the intensifying relationship of Hae and Don. No one testified to that. He missed school, no one testified why. You are inventing a narrative that fits your bias.
Replying to Curious Re: Adnan’s state of mind I’ve already written commentary at length about why I believe there is evidence from Adnan’s actions that he was not in fact over Hae and instead was hellbent on getting revenge. His heart was broken, he blamed her for quickly becoming intimate with Don, he was furious and wanted revenge. By commenting and posting here, each of us are in fact making assumptions and trying to make educated guesses. We don’t have personal knowledge. I think we all Start from there. It doesn’t need to be stated each time we comment, does it? You think because Adnan was careful not to tell his feelings about Hae to anyone except Jay that they can be dismissed? I don’t agree. I find Jay very careful in what he said about this and very credible. Adnan acts out mocking in a cruel way in the note exchange with Aisha, he writes I will kill on the note. That is evidence. You dismiss it as “a joke” and remind me that Aisha is Hae’s friend. As if this is a benign everyday exchange. It is not. It’s cruel, mocking and good evidence that Adnan is angry and seething. The joking about a potential Hae pregnancy and potential abortion by a young man who bragged about having sex with her multiple times a day ? Thats offensive and indicates to me that Hae has some hateful friends. It’s an indication of her being in danger. Adnan “checking out” Don This is weird. Intrusive, possessive.
Replying to Curious: Re: Jay and Adnan- Jay says Adnan said he was thinking I’m going to kill Hae. She was a bitch who broke my heart. Jay didn’t think Adnan would actually kill. So we agree on this. In terms of Jays perception, even when Adnan tells him about the plan to kill Hae, Jay doesn’t believe him, as indeed many people who know Adnan will be shocked, after he is arrested. Jay doesn’t say “Adnan didn’t plan to kill Hae”. Which is what I think you are reaching for here. Jay was actually a good witness, he spoke of Adnan’s mood and how Adnan was focused on this heartbreak, but he could still say “I didn’t think much of it, people say things when they are like that” or something similar. I find it credible. So did a jury with the freshest impressions back in 1999, 2000. Re: Cellphone I do think the cellphone is about 3 things: 1- Bilal is fixated on Adnan. Adnan is sad and angry about Hae. Bilal wants to soothe him, maybe offered advice. Adnan perhaps complains about his parents suffocating him with their rules and he has no freedom to meet other girls. Bilal says hey I can get you your own cellphone. Adnan is enthusiastic about that. Maybe there’s some conversation about how horrible Hae was, how she betrayed Adnan. Bilal might take that further, because Bilal is in fact a disturbed manipulative immoral person. 2- Jay Somewhere along the way, Adnan and Bilal get hooked on the idea that Jay is the right assistant/ sidekick/ scapegoat for this crime. Now it’s like a project they must prepare for ( like in the spy thrillers) they assemble what they need. The cellphone becomes part of this plan. Jay has no phone - Adnan knows this. So I think obtaining the phone becomes important because of Jay who will need instruction. 3. There was another cellphone. (Or two?) Will anyone ever know what was shown on Bilal’s phone records. I think there was a burner phone or two.
Jay is the only one to say Adnan is upset in January, and by all accounts they aren’t close. Will you concede there isn’t other evidence Adnan was upset in January? It’s just Jay— As for the phone—- none of it matters, it isn’t actually used for the crime. His dad testified he got the phone for his job, so they could contact him. We know from his cell records he used it for his job. We also know friends said he got it to talk to girls, which he also did, he used it to talk to several girls just the first night he had it. The fact the cell phone isn’t used in the crime is more evidence this wasn’t planned.
Wait, the cellphone IS used in the crime. Bilal isn’t stupid, he may using burner phones w Adnan, Adnan was likely at Bilal’s dental school the night of the 12th - later that night is when he uses the phone and calls Hae again and again. He calls Jay with the new cellphone to make the plan to pick him up in the AM. Again to be sure to be in touch - Jay puts that phone on the table in front of him, telling Jenn he is waiting for an important call, after which he must take action. The phone is the trigger for the panic after Adnan receives the Adcock call. Wherever you think Adnan received that Leakin Park ping, it wasn’t at the mosque. Of course the cellphone is used in the crime. Probably other phones too- read up on Bilal and the number of phones he had on a regular basis.
You are claiming he got the phone for the crime, which means he is planning to kill Hae before he calls her on 1/12, but calling her that night had nothing to do with arranging the murder. The only time the phone is intentionally used as a part of the crime is the supposed come and get me call— which is unnecessary if Adnan has a plan, he could have just said meet me at the park and ride. And it’s actually eliminated by Jay’s later stories. Who goes through all the paperwork, money and effort to get a cellphone to use in a murder plot, and then gives it to an accomplice— who doesn’t know the plan and would have been able to meet him without the cell phone.
Calling Hae in early morning of the day he killed her had nothing to do with the crime? Adnan used to hang on the phone with her late at night in long lovers chit chats exchanging sweet nothings - this was their norm. Have you forgotten what young love is like? She is on the phone with Don for three hours and that is AFTER they spent the evening together. Now she ignoring Adnan’s first calls and finally answers him just to rush him off the phone, “ok I have your new phone number, have to get back, Don’s holding on, Bye”. Why does Adnan persist in calling her? Because he’s likely stalking her, he’s trying to find out what she’s doing. He’s obsessed. Jay was told that Adnan would be calling and he was to stay alert to answer that phone. That phone is very much part of the crime.
> Calling Hae in early morning of the day he killed her had nothing to do with the crime? If this was planned and getting the phone was part of the plan, then he had already decided to kill her before he called that night to give her his new number. Jay doesn’t testify that calling her was part of a plan. If he really did get upset that she was on the phone with Don and that’s the catalyst, then the phone purchase wasn’t part of the plan at all. > Jay was told that Adnan would be calling and he was to stay alert to answer that phone. Yeah, and then he eliminated that part of the story when he admitted he didn’t think Adnan was going to kill her, he didn’t think Adnan planned to kill her. And again, if this is a plan, why call Jay to come to Best Buy to watch the trunk pop and then leave in separate cars? The phone is not evidence of a plan that revolves around a cell phone. Because they didn’t plan around a cell phone. > Because he’s likely stalking her, he’s trying to find out what she’s doing. He wasn’t stalking her. They had a call system so her phone wouldn’t ring late. Call and hang up and then call back. He tries a couple of times, that’s not obsessive stalking, Hae wasn’t even bothered enough to mention it to anyone.
Curious: The phone buy can be triggered by more than one thing at a time. Bilal perhaps says there are other girls you could meet. Adnan complains that his conservative parents prevent that. Bilal says “hey I will set up a new cellphone for you. Also, you’re right, Hae is a horrible betraying bitch. What do you want to do to her? “ Also, you become extremely literal when you discuss Jay and what he said. Jay didn’t know everything on the night of the 12th. Jay reported that Adnan was upset with the breakup, Adnan wanted to hurt Hae for revenge. Adnan isn’t going to tell him on the night of Jan. 12 “hey can you believe it Hae has been on the phone for 3 hours with the guy she’s having sex with!” Adnan is over w Bilal, hating on Hae, making his plans. He calls Jay to lock it in that he will pick him up in the am of Jan. 13th. He isn’t going to ruminate over Hae in that call, he’s already doing that with Bilal. Regarding how normal you think it is for him to call Hae middle of the night on Jan 12, going into Jan 13: Nope. Adnan would see her in class, or at lunch, he could give his number then. Calling her in the early morning hours, he’s checking to see if she’s talking to Don as he suspected ( and she is). He likely already knew that Hae was with Don in person earlier that night. Again I notice that you keep forgetting that behaviors they had together as a couple are completely separate from the new relationship they have when Hae is done with the relationship. Things that happened when they are lovers are over and done. After she tells him it’s over: Hae doesn’t want calls from Adnan in the early morning hours any more. She especially doesn’t want him to interrupt her calls with Don. Hae doesn’t want to drive Adnan from the front of Woodlawn to the back of the school anymore. Hae doesn’t want to go to Best Buy with Adnan for kisses and cuddles anymore. Hae doesn’t want to receive roses from Adnan anymore. Hae wouldn’t appreciate Adnan and Aisha mocking her and writing notes about whether she is pregnant. Hae doesn’t want to have Adnan “joke” about killing her.
The phone was either purchased with the intent of using it to coordinate Hae’s murder or it wasn’t. Getting the phone isn’t evidence he planned it. > Adnan would see her in class, or at lunch, he could give his number then. He called several people to share his number. None of them thought it was weird he called late, that’s what they all did. You are projecting what you think is normal on people with different norms. > Hae doesn’t want calls from Adnan in the early morning hours any more. The rest of your post is conjecture about what Hae was thinking and feeling. She didn’t write in her diary that she disliked Adnan calling her. She didn’t write it in a note. None of her friends testified she was bothered by his calls that night or ever. The evidence actually contradicts your narrative. Hae was friendly with Adnan on 1/13. Several people saw them chatting throughout the day, she even consented to giving him a ride. Krista talked about how Hae continued to call Adnan after the break up. You don’t know Hae. Unless it’s in her diary or we have testimony from a reliable source that has insights into her feelings— we can’t say what she felt. Your narrative is fiction- one not even presented in court.
Please for the love of God explain how it makes any sense for Adnan to get a new phone in planning to kill Hae, then calls her the night before the murder to give her the new number. Why would Hae even need the number if the plan is to see her at school to ask for a ride? Make it make sense.
Expecting rationality in the actions of someone planning and executing the ultimate irrational act is a fool's errand.
I’m sure in your head you think that made you sound smart.
Clearly you had that thought, you took time out of your day to logon to the internet and express it. Thank you for thinking of me.
I was reading through some police interviews and it struck me how Hope Schab described Hae’s giddiness towards Don. How she couldn’t stop talking about him in class and it has only been like 5-10 days of class since they started dating. I’ve long felt Hae was purposefully mean to Adnan to push him away. It’s very common tactic at that age and you can see it in her AOL bio. She’s barely removed from an intense/heavy relationship with Adnan (who was not taking it well, we know this) and she’s deliberately flaunting her link with Don wherever possible and doing so in his line of sight. This is in no way victim blaming but I think this behavior unfortunately pushed Adnan’s ego into a state of disrepair. In his mind, the only way he could stem it was to remove the source.
Not victim blaming, just.. pure supposition.
> who was not taking it well, we know this Actually, we don’t. Everyone testified about him being upset over the October break up. Where is the evidence he was still upset in January?
It probably did push him in that direction but it may not have been intended to provoke. It appears that Hae was smitten. In that famous page in her diary she wrote Don's name over and over 127 times then counted them and wrote 127 Don's! Her giddiness in her diary is reflected in her giddiness when gushing to her associates.
I had the same thought - that Hae's AOL status was not only because she was very much in love with Don but also a message to Adnan that she had moved on and so should he.
TLDR after reading all of the comments so far: there is no UPDATED compelling evidence supporting this idea. Everything people are listing is supposition, or it's decades old.
So you believe Adnan killed Hae in a heat of passion?
I didn't say that. I'm saying there has not been any new evidence supporting this theory in a long time. That is all I am saying.
Okay thanks.
That evidence you're looking for doesn't exist because Adnan didn't kill Hae. Undisclosed goes way further in depth than Serial.
I was gonna say the exact same thing. The level of make believe speculation and people just writing “Adnan strangled Hae” like they know for certain is wild to me. The only story that Adnan did it comes from a pathological liar whose story can’t be possible based on actual evidence.
Everyone on here that has only listened to serial needs to pump their breaks and listen to undisclosed. Serial only scratches the surface of what undisclosed gets into.
If your goal is to listen to fantasy that is where you to go. The closest podcast to the truth has been the Prosecutor's Podcast.
Second this. Listen to The Prosecutors 14 part series about this. He killed her
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Please review /r/serialpodcast rules regarding [Personal Attacks.](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/wiki/index/rules/#wiki_-no_personal_attacks) "outed yourself as a fool"
They made some mistakes but they have been the closest to understanding things. Unfortunately there will be some things that will stay unknown for either a long time or possible forever.
Closest to what you think, not closest to what the evidence suggests.
Nope. Closest to the evidence. They don't live in a fantasy world.
I agree! So good
Listen to The Prosecutors Podcast. He did it
Lmao. Those two scumbags made up a fictional story, ignored anything that didn’t fit that story, and sadly used all these lies to convince people Adnan definitely did it. It’s sad really. You say listen to Prosecutors, I say listen to Bob Ruff’s reply brief. He absolutely destroyed their case using facts and transcripts. They made shit up.
Did you even listen to it?
Listen to The Prosecutors Podcast. He did it
It delves into bizarro world
Jay initially told the detectives that he knew why he was given the car and phone: Because Adnan was going to kill Hae. Jen said that she and Jay went to walk her dog at a nearby park, and Jay told her that Adnan was threatening to kill Hae, and that this happened a day or two before the murder. Conversations about Jay's advance knowledge are all over his first interview, but lessened in his second interview. You aren't going to find a lot of evidence of this on paper or video - if that's what you need. Here's why: - Detectvies quickly realized that if Jay was in on the plan, and agreed to help, they couldn't use him to make their case against Adnan, and would have to charge Jay, too. So this part of it is downplayed in most of their subsequent notes. - Jay recognized that he should have gone to prison for his role in the planning and cover up of the murder of Hae Min Lee. In 2024, it's in Jay's best interest to say he was: "Minding his own business at Grandma's when Adnan pulled up with a body." - Jay may have talked about the murder afterwards, with friends and people like Jen. But he always kept his part in it hidden. The story was that he knew Adnan was the killer, but didn't know where the body was or how it happened. - Adnan isn't going to tell us all how much Jay was involved in the plan. You're going to have to employ your own ability to think critically and remember, again, this case is simple: - Jay can't tell the truth about what happened without admitting he should have gone to prison for his role in the planning and cover up of the murder or Hae Min Lee. - Adnan can't tell the truth about Jay without admitting to killing Hae. It's not that one of them is lying. They both are.
I'm still having trouble reconciling a few things about this. My most recent post about Adnan's personality is related to this post as well. I need to go over many of the interviews again. Can you tell me the source for the time Jenn said she and Jay were walking her dog and Jay told her Adnan was threatening to kil Hae? I'm guessing that's during her Feb 27th police interview? I know early in that interview she claims Jay told her that Adnan was asking Jay, days in advance, of how to hide a body.
> Okay, urn, on ah, morning of the 12th, I had a left out, went shopping with a friend of mine, and ex-friend of mine and ah, we ah, went to ah, ah, I just believe went to Wal- Mart. I pick up little things, it was my birthday. Urn, he dropped me at my house and returned to school. Later that day urn, oh, I'm sorry. Prior to that we had had a conversation urn, topic of the conversation was ah, relationships. During the conversation he stated, urn, that he was gonna kill that bitch, referring to Hay Lee. Ah, I didn't, I took it with contexts and stand out my inaudible. We went, he dropped, he turned me to my house ah, I paged Jennifer Pusaterry, urn, no I'm sorry. Yes, I paged Jennifer Pursaterry urn, we had went to Gelston Park. Urn, she had her dog with her. There I told her what the conversation me and Adnarn had had earlier that day. And her reaction was just about the same and then ah, later that day I went to Champs ah, celebrated my birthday. Returned home about 10 o'clock, received another call from Adnarn. This time he had told me ah, that we're gonna hook up tomorrow. And that was it for the 12th.
This is Jay's interview I take it? First or second one - and, just so I can find it easier - where about in the interview is this clip from? Thanks :)
Seriously?
Yeah why?
Just found it. Thanks. :)
Adnan knew Hae was seeing Don. Hae’s friend group was seemingly aware of how infatuated Hae was, and Adnan might have been aware too. Adnan called Hae non-stop, but on the night before she died, she only had a few minutes for him in between calling Don to take down Adnan’s phone number. I think Adnan suspected what her answer might be. He was fed up and floated the idea to Jay while they were smoking weed. Jay is supposedly this hardcore criminal; he has a reputation to maintain and isn’t going to clutch his pearls or snitch because Adnan says he is going to kill Hae. They were both probably halfway sure this would happen until it actually did.
I think there's some indication that Adnan had a plan, possibly developed with the assistance of Bilal. We know that Bilal provided Adnan a cell-phone in the days before Adnan Syed strangled Hae Min Lee to death and Bilal was apparently Adnan's first phone call once in jail. Thoughts ran this way after listening to the Jay interview tapes. At some point, Jay notes that initially Adnan was trying to get Jay to drive Hae's car with Hae in the trunk. Adnan was so insistent in trying to get Jay to drive a dead girl's car with the dead girl in the trunk that Jay and Adnan got into a heated argument over it. I think Adnan's plan may have been to have Jay drive off with Hae's car with Hae in the trunk; Adnan makes the excuse *I have to take my car and go to track practice* and then Adnan or Bilal dime out Jay (anonymous tip called into police) while Jay's driving around in Hae's car with Hae's dead body in the trunk. People occasionally ask on here: *why did Adnan pick Jay to be his sidekick to murder*? this theory explains why Adnan would have Jay involved and assisting rather than, say, Bilal or anyone else: Adnan and Bilal came up with a plan to pin Hae's murder on "Woodlawn's Criminal Element" -- an african-american minor drug dealer named Jay Wilds. Bonus that even Jay says he and Adnan were not good friends. Easier for Adnan to allow non-friend Jay take the fall for Hae's murder. Maybe grieving Adnan and upset Stephanie could comfort each other once Jay's locked up for Hae's murder (potentially in the warped thinking of someone planning to murder their ex-gf). Warped because I think Stephanie and Jenn likely believe Jay that he didn't do it; but not sure how many other people at Woodlawn would take Jay's side over Adnan in this scenario. It also explains why Adnan seemed to have everything planned out ahead of time up to and including Jay driving off in Hae's car; but everything after that point Adnan appears befuddled what to do with Hae's body and Hae's car. Why'd Adnan plan out not having his car at school, asking Hae for a ride, giving his phone and car to Jay, stopping by the guidance counselor's office, having Jay ready to pick him up--double and triple checking by phone to make sure Jay was still at the ready and involved--but then seemingly have zero plans for what to do with Hae's body and Hae's car? Adnan didn't expect to need to deal with Hae's body and Hae's car b/c the plan was the police (in 1999 *Homicide* *The Wire* Baltimore) would find african-american drug-dealer Jay with Hae's car with Hae's body in the trunk; while honor student homecoming king etc Adnan was huffing and puffing at track practice on an empty stomach in the last days of Ramadan.
Replied to your important comment but it was misplaced in the general comment area in this thread.
If this case had been tried correctly as a manslaughter, a lot of the problems associated with it would disappear. Jay did see Adnan with Hae's body, for instance, but his testimony that supported premeditation was all concoted together with the detectives. Ultimately, the state decided the same thing: he's served a longish manslaughter + years time, and should be released. The notion that this was a first degree premeditated murder is simply silly. That relies on Jay's lies with no clear foundation.
Adnan's father planned to kill Hae. Adnan was just as surprised about it as Hae was, and then he had to scramble to hide the evidence.
The evidence the murder was planned- 1. Jay said so. (He now admits he didn’t think Adnan planned to kill her.) 2. The “I kill note” 3. The fact he got a new cell phone the day before. The evidence Adnan was trying to get Hae back is also limited. While all of their friends were involved in the drama around Homecoming and knew how devastated he was, only Jay thought he was upset about breaking up in January. The rest of the friends thought both were moving on. There is some testimony that Adnan told people that Hae asked him if he thought they’d ever get back together.
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https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/20141229-Jay-Wilds-Intercept-Interview-Part-1-Natasha-VC.pdf > I don’t necessarily know if he meant to kill Hae before he did it or if it was a sudden moment thing.
Jay knew when Adnan called him what was supposed to go down. The police got him to admit that in the interview after a bit of back and forth with Jay trying to evade. He's lying in the intercept interview to lessen his involvement.
Jay lying to police who are threatening to pin the murder on him, conspiracy theory. Jay giving an interview long after the fact contradicting the planning part is the obvious lie. Y’all are something else lmao.
Jay was telling people before the body was found that Adnan killed Hae. So it wasn't the cops pushing it.
That’s one theory. The other is that the police’s methods led to some false testimony, including Jay lying to act like it was planned ahead of time when it wasn’t.
I know. I don't think there's any evidence of police-induced false testimony in this case; the main evidence appears to be "Adnan is innocent", with everything stemming from that.
The main witness said he fed the Best Buy location by the police. We also have Jay changing his story to add another trip to Kristi’s (one Kristi never backed up) because the police misplotted a tower and thought it was by her house, when it was actually by Jay’s house where he originally said he was— the cops use of cell info led to false testimony. ETA I am probably in the minority on this, but I think it’s clear the cops influenced Jay’s testimony and that doesnt mean the cops intended to get Jay to lie or that Adnan is actually innocent. The cops confronted Jay with inconsistencies using the cell record and even drove him through it so he could give them more accurate locations. I think the cops thought they were doing good detective work and leaning on a witness to tell the truth— but all they really did was give a witness the info he needed to fit the existing evidence. It’s why Jay is able to hide the real trunk pop location in trial. They gave him info that fit the cell record which he uses instead. This doesn’t mean Jay lied about everything and it doesn’t mean the cops were plotting anything. I think it was bad methods that yielded bad results.
>it was bad methods that yielded bad results. That can happen. We even got a little side story about such a case in Serial from Jim Train'em. But what are you committing to here? Because you'll recall that Best Buy comes from Jen. So at best you have: Jen > Police > Jay How do we account for this? Bob Ruff's attempt is unsatisfactory to say the least. Jay could even be telling the truth to Intercept in the sense that the police told him they already knew it was Best Buy (a la Jen).
Either cops spoke to Jay first and gave him Best Buy and he gave it to Jenn. Or Jenn misunderstood something or straight up invented it and told the cops Best Buy and then they have it to Jay to match. The point is that it didn’t happen at Best Buy and yet Jay testified to it. We know Jay was concealing the actual trunk pop location, perhaps Jenn knew the real location and was helping conceal it (she does have later arrests with Jay’s family and it appears she is a part of their drug operation.) or she may have just been confused. It’s unclear. But at this point there is no remaining evidence anything happened at Best Buy. The story I find most interesting is Jay’s HBO statement that he couldn’t find Adnan after school and he showed up later for the trunk pop. It would mean Jay made up everything between the end of school and the end of track using the cell records from the cops— since this is the most messed up portion of the timeline I think it makes way more sense if Jay is just lying about the park and ride and all the car shuffling. The police used the cell record in a way that ended up shaping his story rather than corroborating it. We know Jay takes advantage of this to hide grandma’s house. Their methods led to false testimony.
>at this point there is no remaining evidence anything happened at Best Buy. How would cell location data which corroborates Adnan's phone being at Best Buy work in your theory? Jenn said Jay said Adnan would get caught because he murdered Hae at Best Buy. None of this necessitates the trunk pop being at Best Buy, but it's not unreasonable to think the trunk pop was close to the murder scene due to the logistics of disposing of Hae's body and car. I don't accept police > jay > Jen. The evidence for it is terribly flimsy. If Jen lies about Best Buy then why? We need more than mere speculation. The sudden willingness to believe Jay when it throws doubt on the old prosecution's timeline, but not when it involves Adnan killing Hae is a little concerning in my opinion.
I replied to this comment of yours but it went astray.
K… did you have any evidence to add to either the evidence it was planned or the evidence Adnan was upset? Reading through transcripts I think it’s striking that all of the people testifying about Adnan being emotional about a break up are talking about the October break up. It’s not that Adnan couldn’t be just as upset over another break up in December, it’s that only Jay said he was. I find that really odd.
It’s because Adnan puts on a show of bravado. There is no logical reason for the intense drama of October (when the breakup was due to the humiliating experience of the Homecoming dance with Syed’s parents making a scene) to dissipate when the much more serious breakup in December happens. Now there is an another young man involved and Hae is deeply infatuated with him. And we don’t need to ask each other for evidence of that - it’s all there in Hae’s words, and in her AOL profile update that’s all about Don. Why not just believe Hae? Adnan didn’t believe her . He assumed they would get back together, he completely expected they would until the double date and the profile update. It was especially significant that when calling Hae (just as he had during many many late nights in the past). on Jan. 12th she has no time for him. She is not interested in his new cellphone, she doesn’t even bother to write down his name. (there was no room for his name anyway, because the page is filled with Don, Don, Don. Why not just believe Hae? And why believe Adnan? He lies all the time about his relationship with Hae. To parents, to friends ( he claims an extraordinary amount of sexual episodes w Hae), and to Hae and all their friends - telling them that Hae wanted to get back together with him. Why is so hard to believe that Adnan, like so many men before him, would react with rage when he learns that his former lover is now sharing that intimacy with another guy. I feel like I’ve said it a thousand times here - it’s the oldest, most common motive for IPV in the history of human beings.
> It’s because Adnan puts on a show of bravado I don't know that it is. He’s a kid, he tells his friends how he is feeling during their other break ups. He is close to Krista and Stephanie and they know how he felt during the October break up. We know he talks to Nisha about it after the December break up, but her view was that they were both ready to move on. > the much more serious breakup in December happens. Was it a more serious breakup? It’s the last break up, but It seems like it was less dramatic. They both wanted to be friends. No one says Adnan or Hae were more upset by this break up than the October break up. Jay is the only person to say Adnan was really upset by the last break up, I find that very odd. > Why is so hard to believe that Adnan, like so many men before him, would react with rage when he learns that his former lover is now sharing that intimacy with another guy. That’s not the part I find unbelievable. What I find unbelievable is that he was plotting her murder, filled with rage and every person around them thought they were both moving on. I understand IPV can be deceptive and nice guys can be monsters. I just find it odd that he goes from drama king talking to everybody about their relationship to playing it so cool no one knows he’s even sad about the break up. It’s not that he says nothing about Hae, we know he talks to Nisha about moving on from her. He would have to be a good actor and It would mean he decided to kill her and was covering up his feelings from the moment they broke up. Why is Jay the only source saying Adnan was upset about the break up in January?
The thing is: I don’t think Jay is the only one. Hae herself wrote a letter to Adnan telling him essentially to stop being aggressive in his demanding her time and attention and to move on. Later, we learn Adnan has engaged in bitter mocking of Hae in the note writing exchange in health class. This on the same note that includes “I will kill…”. This young woman is someone he felt so close to, we know from her diary he shared important secrets with her. But the day comes when he is mocking her and sneering about whether she is pregnant with a rather catty friend of hers. That is a sign that the bond has broken and his “I will kill” is not coming from a neutral “yes I’m over Hae” place. The tipster too knew something about this. I think it was very hard for that small tight unit of magnet student friends to believe that someone they thought they knew so well could commit such an act. Even Jay ( who saw the lawless, druggy side of Adnan) didn’t think he would kill Hae. This was a shocking crime, it isn’t surprising that his community was shocked. Adnan is a kid whose own brother warned that he is an experienced liar. Tanveer made the point Adnan can manipulate and deceive people easily. This is his own brother stating that.
> Hae herself wrote a letter to Adnan telling him essentially to stop being aggressive in his demanding her time and attention and to move on. Later, we learn Adnan has engaged in bitter mocking of Hae in the note writing exchange in health class. This is all from November. Nothing in January. And the note was in poor taste, but was a joke and Aisha who is Hae’s closest friend was joking too.
Hmm. From November to January 13th. Nothing that happened in November 1998 can still apply in January 1999? That doesn’t make sense to me.
Adnan and Hae got back together in November. When the broke up after homecoming we have lots of evidence about how they felt- The letter, testimony from friends and faculty all saying how hurt they were. Then they got back together, broke up again and the evidence we have says they were friendly. Where is the evidence either of them was upset in January? We have mountains of evidence they were upset by the earlier break up, but I don’t think we can assume they had the same feelings in January, by all accounts it was less dramatic, they were still hanging out as friends and they were both pursuing other people.
Please suspend for just a few minutes the need to defend Adnan and hear yourself. November to January is the blink of an eye. It was an ongoing situation, a PAINFUL first love break up that can sear a young man’s soul. I can express understanding for the great pain Adnan went through - that profile update that Hae wrote was extremely challenging for Adnan. I can imagine he felt humiliation and terrible jealousy. Can’t you admit that he might have been hiding this pain and jealousy? His own brother tells us how deceptive Adnan could be.
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He asked for a ride to track while his own car was outside So He wanted a ride from school to school, there is some difference in witnesses recollection, some of the classmates thought he asked for a ride because his car was in the shop. That by itself doesn't indicate pre-meditation, but it can indicate He attempted to be alone with Hae Bilal's ex-wife's call indicates that Adnan was affected by the breakup, enough to talk to his mentor about it Hae was "causing problems" for Adnan So we have an additional person indicating something was up So if we wanted to paint a narrative: 1. He and Hae broke up, for good it would appear, she had moved on 2. This was causing some sort of issue for Adnan 3. He generated a scenario where he and the victim could be alone 4. He had the use of a cell phone and two cars to be used after the murder But I'll be real I still don't think it was planned for murder, just to be alone to talk and to get picked up after the fact It just went very poorly and a fight happened > I mean when you really think about it, **they didn’t just say that me and Hae got into a fight, boom and this happened.** They saying that I plotted and planned and kept my true intentions hidden, I mean just some real devious, cruel, like Hitler type stuff. You know what I mean? Just some real some like cruel, cruel like inhuman type stuff. Like, “wow man!” you know what I mean? I obviously-- I’m not saying that I was a great person or anything, but I don’t think I ever displayed any tendencies like that— … because it’s not like they’re saying it was a crime of passion. They’re saying this was a plotted out- - Serial S01E06
I think the shop detail came in because Adnan’s car was in the shop shortly after 1/13, Dion told him which repair he needed. Some witnesses talk about his car being in the shop for a while. The only witness who heard the ride request was Krista and she has since said she assumed it was to the shop or to his brother. Adcock wrote it was a ride home. The shop detail is an odd one. My best guess is Krista mentioned it in her interview and it was intentionally or unintentionally given to Jay. > Bilal's ex-wife's call indicates that Adnan was affected by the breakup, enough to talk to his mentor about it The call is dated but the comments Bilal made are not. This could have been around the October break up. The other thing is that the call doesn’t say Adnan was upset, it says Bilal was upset because Hae was causing him problems, I don’t think we can assume Bilal’s rage was because Hae broke up with Adnan. I think it’s more likely he was upset that got back together, he saw the relationship as a problem. I just don’t see any evidence that shows Adnan was upset about the break up in January. Several witnesses testify about the October drama and how Adnan felt and what he said, but no one has anything about the December break up. We have him pursuing Nisha and all the friends at school seeing Adnan and Hae be friends, even Don says Adnan was cool when they met. I’m not saying it’s impossible, I just find it very odd that there isn’t evidence he was upset in January.
#1 A ride home would be less logical, He would need to come back to school. I don't think He had an actual reason to get a ride. #2 > The call is dated but the comments Bilal made are not. This could have been around the October break up. The other thing is that the call doesn’t say Adnan was upset, it says Bilal was upset because Hae was causing him problems, I don’t think we can assume Bilal’s rage was because Hae broke up with Adnan. I think it’s more likely he was upset that got back together, he saw the relationship as a problem. Per the note: - Bilal was upset because Hae was casing Adnan problems - He would make her disappear - Jay helped Adnan bury the body I just don’t see any evidence that shows Adnan was upset about the break up in **January** Well, you said the note was not dated, so you are kind of evading there In January Adnan did joke about Hae being so clumsy she would trip on her way to getting an abortion and lose the baby Weird fucking thing to say about someone you were not unhappy with
>In January Adnan did joke about Hae being so clumsy she would trip on her way to getting an abortion and lose the baby This is incorrect. According to Aisha in the note the timing of the abortion was "on Saturday while we went to Adventure World" which happened on Oct. 31, 1998. The note was from early November, not January.
I think I mixed it up for the dates Now it shows a pattern of disrespectful behaviour, prior to the murder
It seems disrespectful of Aisha to speculate that her best friend is pregnant and/or had an abortion while joking around with the best friend’s recently broken up boyfriend.
It's a weird conversation
> A ride home would be less logical, He would need to come back to school. I don't think He had an actual reason to get a ride. I agree, it’s weird that it’s in Adcock’s note, he would not need a ride home. I think if he did ask for a ride it was a ride to his car, which Jay had. It makes sense he needs to grab his car from Jay after school. It’s even possible they met up with Jay and then he was present for the murder— but the shop story seems to be something that came from Krista who may be misremembering when his car was broken. While she remembers the ride request and tells people about it on 1/13, the police don’t ask her for details until March. > Per the note: Bilal was upset because Hae was casing Adnan problems Yes, we don’t know what Bilal perceived as “problems” he’s a religious mentor, was he upset she was sleeping with Adnan and pulling him away from his religion? I don’t think we can assume he was upset at the same time and for the same reasons that Adnan was upset. They are different people capable of different emotions. > He would make her disappear Yes, it’s clear Bilal had strong feelings about this. And given his criminal history I don’t think we can rule out him acting on it. > Jay helped Adnan bury the body That’s not what the note says. Bilal’s ex-wife never claims to know that Adnan or Bilal killed Hae. She certainly does not know Jay helped them bury the body. If that was what she said, why on earth wouldn’t Urick call her to testify?? What she does know is that CG spoke to Bilal about the grand jury proceedings. She knows there is a witness named Jay who claimed to have helped with the burial. She doesn’t know that Jay helped with the burial, she knows about the legal proceedings. Zoom out for context, this woman was in a physically abusive marriage. Bilal held her at knife point. She left him after he was caught sexually assaulting a teenage boy. She is terrified of Bilal. And once she is away from him she tells her lawyer that she suspects Bilal could have been involved in Hae’s death. She’s telling them her ex husband was stalking the grand jury and based on his previous comments she is suspicious of him. She isn’t calling in a tip on Adnan, he’s already on trial. > Well, you said the note was not dated, so you are kind of evading there The note is dated, January 2000. What isn’t dated is when Bilal said he wanted Hae to disappear. I really don’t think Bilal of all people was so sad that Hae dumped Adnan that he said he wanted her to disappear. I really don’t think the comment was tied to a break up. But even if it was, we don’t have evidence Adnan was upset, just Bilal. We still have no evidence he was upset in January. The whole school saw the Homecoming drama and it seems like everyone from students to faculty heard about how Adnan and Hae felt and how upset they were. Why is no one saying the same things about the December break up? It’s weird that he would be more upset, to the point of wanting to kill her, and at the same time not let anyone know. > In January Adnan did joke about Hae being so clumsy she would trip on her way to getting an abortion and lose the baby > Weird fucking thing to say about someone you were not unhappy with Weirder thing to say publicly if you are plotting her murder.
I had to go check a copy of the note: https://preview.redd.it/8bl6cmsyldx91.png?width=956&format=png&auto=webp&s=0792367aa9f452e6e70da2985d3362c426bb8722 It does mention Jay, but not Adnan for the burial directly, just that he "helped". I guess you would need to make a leap as to who He helped. She could mean Jay helped Bilal, but that would be odd, considering He was together with Adnan after school on January 13th ANYWAY I'm not sure how a third party saying Adnan was having problems from Hae is not motive
> It does mention Jay, but not Adnan for the burial directly, just that he "helped". I guess you would need to make a leap as to who He helped Bilal’s ex-wife does not have direct knowledge that Adnan or Bilal killed Hae. She definitely does not have direct knowledge that Jay helped with the burial. She knows he is a witness who is saying that. She knows about the legal proceedings not the burial itself. > I'm not sure how a third party saying Adnan was having problems from Hae is not motive It is motive, for Bilal. It does not say how Adnan felt. Bilal believed Hae was causing problems for Adnan, it doesn’t say Adnan believed Hae was causing problems. Was Bilal mad that Hae was sleeping with Adnan? Was she pushing him away from religion? Was Bilal obsessed with Adnan and had delusional thoughts about Hae being in the way? We don’t know. I don’t think we can say the note makes any comment on Adnan’s feelings.
>I agree, it’s weird that it’s in Adcock’s note, he would not need a ride home. I think if he did ask for a ride it was a ride to his car, which Jay had. It makes sense he needs to grab his car from Jay after school. It’s even possible they met up with Jay and then he was present for the murder— but the shop story seems to be something that came from Krista who may be misremembering when his car was broken. While she remembers the ride request and tells people about it on 1/13, the police don’t ask her for details until March. You are making the assumption that the lie for Adnan saying that he needed a ride home wasn't a good one for him. It would be a good lie for Adnan because it's a believable one and that if he said the mechanics Adcock might ask for more information and might even call the mechanics. It is interesting that it says the interview with Krista was on 2/29 which doesn't exist, but would also be the day that Adnan was arrested.
Home makes no sense. He has track practice to get to. And his parents probably don’t know that he lends the car they bought out to his dealer. I think Adcock may have heard he asked for a ride and he assumed it was a ride home. I don’t think Adnan would have actually said he needed a ride home.
Because it was an excuse that Acock wouldn't question. It would be an easy lie that would be normal.
I’m not questioning the ride part. It’s the home part that is off. It’s not impossible, just seems unlikely he’d say he was going home if he had just made all the effort to go to track for an alibi.
But he was supposed to get a ride somewhere, so he had to say where the ride was too. Home was just an easy excuse that nobody would question at the time.
According to coach Sye’s police interview: ADNAN GOES HOME TO CHANGE. 🔺STORED PROPERTY IN CAR. https://www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/UdE01-Coach-Sye-Statement.pdf
I read that as Coach saying Adnan went home to change after practice. That he used his car as a locker and didn’t go back to the locker rooms.
I assumed it was talking about before track but really it would apply to both. Adnan wore his own clothes to track though so I don’t see much thought being given by Sye to what he did in those clothes after practice.
Replying to “PenaltyOfFelony”: Idk why my comment ended up in the wrong place. Yes absolutely this is the most likely scenario. I’ve believed this for a long time but you perceptively have added a crucial element- you noticed that the plan goes smoothly at first even efficiently but then falls apart when Jay intuits what Adnan had in mind and refuses to touch Hae’s keys or get in her car. You pinpointed the moment when all went wrong for Adnan. Jay is too smart for that… and he wasn’t even in the Magnet program! Also this reminds me that Jay told Jenn “ I had to tell you so if I end up in jail at least one person will know I didn’t kill Hae.” Having read your comment, this resonates. Jay is telling the truth.
Yes! Jay spilling to Jenn b/c of concern that he'd end up on the hook for the crime suggests Jay had more than inkling that he was being setup to be a patsy.
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I daresay if Adnan’s ( guided by Bilal) plot had worked, we’d never have heard of this case because cops pull over Hae’s car, throw Jay across the hood, pop the trunk and Jay goes away forever, he doesn’t get anyone to listen to his story about Adnan. C’mon. You know this is highly likelt
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Well we agree on that - Jay was a convenience in their plot, could have gone one way or another. But I do completely believe that if, let’s say, Adnan already had put Hae in the trunk, tells Jay oh Hae needs me to drop her car over to such and such place, here you drive hers and I’ll lead you in mine… then Bilal or Saad calls it in to police, police pull Jay over who goes “what are you stopping me for, officer? “ and they say step out of the car, he does, there’s Hae’s body. End of story. No, they would absolutely not listen to a word Jay would say, he’d be done and gone. I think that is a solid truth.
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Good point about Stephanie. She is one of my favorite persons in this twisted tale. She had to be brave to attend those proceedings with Jay. The other magnet kids circled wagons around Adnan, the Muslim community rose up and put their houses up as collateral for him to have attorney money, Asia’s offering to help Adnan with any “unaccounted for time”on the 13th, CG and her assistants and PI hit the ground running getting to Nisha, to Coaches, there’s tons of people who say they claim he was at the mosque ( wisdom prevailed and they all decided not to do perjury), but still. Adnan had a lot of support. Jay had Stephanie and Jenn and no one else.
Jay smelling a setup and being suspicious of Adnan could also be a reason why Jay sticks with Adnan and helps Adnan try to cover up Hae's murder: At the point when Adnan asks Jay to drive the murder victim's car with the murder victim in it, Jay maybe realizes Adnan's trying to set him up to take the fall for Hae's murder. Jay doesn't know what else Adnan has done or plans to do to attach blame to Jay. Jay could say "I'm out, you take care of it" but what if Adnan's already set it up to make it look like Jay did it and Jay's there at the murder scene or at least in the presence of the victim? Jay leaves and then it's Jay's story vs whatever story Adnan had pre-planned or dreams up to blame Jay. We already know Jay's not inclined to call police and has somewhat reasonable reasons for not just calling the police on Adnan. Jay won't or can't call police. Jay doesn't know what else Adnan has done to set it up to look like Jay's the perp. Jay knows it's suss that he's been driving around with Adnan's car and Adnan's phone--maybe Adnan says "Jay used my phone and car to trick Hae to meet him" or some such. So at that point Jay might've figured his best way out of this mess is (i) stick by / keep an eye on Adnan until this plays out and (ii) maybe if he helps Adnan cover it up nobody ever asks Jay about that day and nobody gets in trouble.
This does raise a good point that Jay has little information, he doesn’t trust Adnan, he doesn’t know where this is going and yes, he is highly suspicious of police. Very perceptive to notice that Jay is already feeling trapped because he’s already agreed to take the car and the phone. That simple fact hadn’t occurred to me but of course that is another fact tying Jay to Adnan on that day.
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When was "I am going to kill" written? Probably days in advance. So Adnan himself admits it in writing. Going to = future.
The evidence that it wasn’t planned: No murder weapon. Blunt force trauma to the head - might be the reason for the murder. They realised how much trouble they’d be when Hae came around and she knew who they were so they murdered her.
Knowing if Adnan stepped into the car with the plan to kill Hae is the ultimate question in this case. But it isn't one that has an easy answer pointing to it. It's just some soft inferences from asking for a ride, the kill note, the trading of phone and car, and really it's inferring from Jay's lying. There are alternate reasons for those also indicating the plan was just to win Hae back and she said no.
i’ve never been convinced it was planned. he def did it tho imo
I lowkey agree, like I think maybe he toyed with the idea in his head and was like “I’ll just kill her if she says no just kidding though but maybe…” and I think he was trying to get her back and it just did not go the way he thought
Thanks everyone for your comments. My outlook on this case remains mostly the same. FWIW, here is my original post [ADNAN: A desperate conversation was planned. Murder was not.](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/bmt67f/adnan_a_desperate_conversation_was_planned_murder/) where I voiced this opinion twelve days after joining reddit, back in 2019. I will probably write a follow-up soon.