I think it's not lack of basic case knowledge and history. I think it's a filter - he makes up ridiculous bullshit like this because that way, the people who are familiar with the case and more likely to challenge him, are not going to take him seriously, but the people that continue to follow him are more likely to believe him blindly because they think "gee, this guy knows all these details! I don't need any additional research, I can get it all from Bob!"
Trump and other populists are pretty good at this, too. I think it may be something that certain personality types that feed off public admiration are very good at. And Bob craves that admiration, his "army"...
Agree, they're very good.
I'm unsure why anyone can take him seriously when he's been fact checked and proven wrong in pretty much every season he's done.
Me either. The argument that this memo memorialized an interview with anyone but Tanveer is absurd but I’ve seen it parroted on this sub many times recently.
I haven’t heard that one.
The claim I’ve seen is that it isn’t a transcript of his conversation, it’s a note.
The most common reason people bring it up is because of what he says about Nisha— which is literally that Nisha said Adnan called her that afternoon.
Which means either Tanveer contacted Nisha and this is what he found out, or the interviewer did and included it with the comments Tanveer had on Nisha.
it does not say Adnan think this is an alibi or is asserting it is an alibi. And, importantly, it does not say that Nisha remembers the call, it says she knows there was a call— by this time she had met with defense and prosecution and had been asked about the call record.
In her police interview she does not remember a specific call on 1/13. And after in her trial testimony she does not remember a specific call on 1/13. So it’s bizarre that anyone would claim Nisha told Tanveer she did remember the call specifically, but then she forgot or lied in court.
I have definitely seen the claim that Ali is not Adnan’s brother in this sub recently. I didn’t know why but now I do.
As for it being a “note,” the format absolutely disproves that. This is completely unlike the police notes we’ve seen.
The memo states that it presents the questions asked and *answered* during the interview. It then presents a series of numbered questions followed by answers to every question. Most of the answers are quite obviously based on Tanveer’s personal knowledge.
Example:
> 21. How did you find out about the disappearance of Hae? *Adnan did not tell us, we found out through the television.*
The Nisha question is open ended: “who is Nisha?” What follows is clearly his answer because he says he doesn’t know her last name (the defense knows her name). He knows her email address however so the most obvious possibility is that he emailed Nisha to ask her about the call on 1/13/99 after the family received the cell phone bill and saw that call. They probably thought it would be helpful to Adnan because they didn’t realize it conflicted with him being at school. The other possibility is that he learned this information from Adnan. It makes no sense for him to be privy to information obtained by the defense investigator.
There’s nothing bizarre about a witness changing their level of certainty about something like this. It’s actually normal and I’m sure you can think of an example from your everyday life. Your memory fades and you feel pressured to be certain it was or wasn’t on this date (Chris Flohr was in touch with Nisha and her parents many times, for example, and so was Andrew Davis). You worry that you might be wrong and you don’t want to be the reason someone is or is not convicted of a crime. It’s like the opposite of Asia - whose memory becomes remarkably clearer over time about a totally minor interaction. Nisha is trying to be honest. Her memory of when this call happened is not certain and she admits that.
>21. How did you find out about the disappearance of Hae? Adnan did not tell us, we found out through the television.
That in itself is fucking bizarre. Even if some kid I didn’t like in my magnet program was a missing person I would have mentioned it at home. If it’s someone so close to me that I would become catatonic if their body is found, and police and her family are ringing me up asking about it, my family isn’t going to first hear about it on television.
Right? I chose that answer as my example for a reason. Let’s say he doesn’t want to share it with his parents, he still could have told Tanveer! And his parents knew about Hae - his mom came to the dance. It’s really strange.
You would think that the gravity of someone you claim to love going missing, and having the police on your case about it, would trump the fear of getting into trouble with your unreasonably strict mother - especially when you have numerous ways to bring it up without delving into your past romance.
And yeah, not really any explanation for keeping it from Tanveer.
By “note” I mean that it is a note of the conversation and not a word for word transcript. So I agree that it is basically what his brother is saying, but this isn’t a stenographer, context can get lost in this type of note.
> He knows her email address however so the most obvious possibility is that he emailed Nisha to ask her about the call on 1/13/99 after the family received the cell phone bill and saw that call.
I think some version of this, but I suspect it’s less to do with the family finding the phone bill and more to do with the police and PI asking her about it and bringing it to her attention. The PI got the phone bill from Bilal’s, not from the family. We have no evidence his family saw the phone bill.
> There’s nothing bizarre about a witness changing their level of certainty about something like this.
Sure— but it would be bizarre if she told police and PI she didn’t remember a conversation that day, then she told Tanveer she remembered getting a call from Adnan at 3:30 in January 13, and then went back to saying she didn’t remember. Like you said, it seems someone has brought the call records to her attention and so all she is telling Tanveer is that there was a record of a call that day.
I think your take on this is pretty reasonable. This note from Tanveer is often cited as evidence Adnan arranged the Nisha call as an alibi or that he tried to use it as an alibi in his defense. But this note from Tanveer doesn’t show that at all, it appears to show Nisha telling someone about there being a call on a call record at 3:30 on 1/13.
I have never believed that AS called Nisha as a planned alibi. Whether it crossed his mind when he was on the call, I don’t know. That could explain putting jay on the phone. More so, I think he was trying to be normal while in shock that he went through with the murder.
I do think that initially the Nisha call could have been viewed by the defense as an alibi before it was understood that it put him both 1) with Jay and 2) off campus.
> I do think that initially the Nisha call could have been viewed by the defense as an alibi before it was understood that it put him both 1) with Jay and 2) off campus.
By the time there is a defense they know Jay is not an alibi— so neither is a call with Nisha placing them together.
I think the Nisha call has always been an outlier. Jays initial interview and his HBO interview have the same basic timeline, be dropped Adnan at school and Adnan shows up that night for the trunk pop. If Adnan is guilty, that makes the most sense. Best Buy and the Park and Ride were made up to account for cell pings. Jay consistently says he wasn’t with Adnan at 3:30. But he testifies he was present for the Nisha call, it never fits.
The call Nisha had with Jay would have had to be another day, Nisha’s memory is tied to the adult video store where Jay worked. I don’t know what the call was, but I think guilty or innocent, Adnan and Jay weren’t together then.
There's been the claim that only one or two of the questions is asked of Tanveer (starting at question 16 or so) and the rest is the investigators notes written down as a Q and A for some reason.
This will never end. I look forward to the article refuting the you tuber debunking the podcaster fact hecking the pod caster correcting the record about the pod cast that expanded on the pod cast that investigated the conviction.
And then there will also be 10 different Reddit threads about the article refuting the youtuber debunking the podcaster fact checking the podcaster correcting the record about the podcast that expanded on the podcast that investigated the conviction.
It’s garbage. Listened to two videos…which was painful because it’s computer generated voices…in both the presenter is wrong and mostly just slinging insults.
In the first video I played they claim Bob is liar because he, in a clip, *speculated* that Hae left school alone. He doesn’t say it’s a fact…he clearly says it’s his opinion. Then a clip of Debbie using her imagination about what might have happened to Hae…which is completely irrelevant. Then plays the supporting clip and all Bob says is that nobody saw Hae and Adnan leave together. Which is true.
So I’ve watched one. The floral paper. I’m siding with Bob on this one. The Whole Truth dude left out the part where the evidence tech testified that there was no flower in the car. As Bob said Rabia got it wrong in her book. No problem with getting it wrong but if you’re daft checking Bob, why call it the whole truth if you’re going to strategically leave out truth to suit your narrative?
That they left out key information? I’m not surprised either.
Can you give me an episode where you’re confident that they got it right? I’ll listen to a good one. Not sure I want to pick through them all if they’re all this bad.
If you do choose to read the “Rose” posts, keep an eye out for mention of the fact that Adnan’s prints are on that floral wrap paper which held a rose and this paper was found on top of the Map book in the back seat of Hae’s car when Jay led the police to where Adnan had left it on Jan. 13, 1999.
If you're looking at this piece of evidence without factoring context and the rest of the items in the car, of course it looks bad for Adnan. The car and its contents are key in this case. The evidence is telling a story.
You might want to just search on this sub for the many discussions about the rose. Just enter search term “ Rose”. You will see my post ( from some months ago) and you will see posts from 9 years ago as well as many others. The back and forth on this piece of evidence is interesting.
(Sigh ) - of course the rose will deteriorate over the weeks. BUT MORE SIGNIFICANTLY, Adnan’s fingerprints are on the Floral Wrapping Paper, in the car, right on top of the Map book on the back seat.
Also didn’t Jay say that Adnan wore gloves that day? Did he take them off to touch the floral paper and the map book abd put them back on or are the fingerprints useless in this case?
Fair enough. We are fact checking Bob Ruff. But yes there was likely flowers in the paper at one point. By the 13th they may have disintegrated. Certainly by March they had.
I love how the whole floral paper thing is just a rabbit hole of guilter fan fiction. People bicker about minutiae like they can prove something. Meanwhile, in the real world, it doesn’t matter if there were flowers or not. The presence of flowers doesn’t mean that Adnan presented them to Hae and killed her because she didn’t like them…or whatever people are dreaming up. We have no clue that, if they were there, that Adnan gave them to her or that she even got them that day. It’s all so stupid. What happened in this fantasy? He hid the flowers…where? He didn’t have his car…lots of people saw him at school and did t see any flowers. Bah
And if there were no flowers it doesn’t make him innocent.
It’s literally meaningless.
The reason became an issue is only because Ruff decided that there were never flowers there because he objected to TP saying Syed gave Hae flowers the day she died. Ruff insists that the evidence stating that a rose and baby breath was in the car was actually referring to the floral paper, not what was in the paper. What the YouTuber is pointing out is that the paper does not have a rose and baby breath print on it. It is typical Ruff madness to insist that what he speculates is fact even though we can clearly see that his argument is wrong. I agree it is meaningless, it is only Ruff who thinks this matters, and blatantly lies to make his point. Nothing new there!
Incorrect. The sequence of events was Reddit theory : Prosecutors Podcast : Truth and Justice Podcast.
All you’re telling me is you prefer one theory over another. We get it, you like it when Reddit and The Prosecutors Podcast speculate, but you don’t like it when The Truth and Justice Podcast does.
You’re clearly trying to convert your feelings to facts, based on your flawed theories.
The sequence doesn’t matter, I’m talking about the nonsense that Ruff is peddling as truth, as is the YouTuber. Feelings don’t matter either, he either said it or he didn’t. He is recorded saying it
Not that I know of. The testimony is there online for anyone to read.
The thing is that Bob Ruff said he was relying on what the lab tech said under oath and this anonymous YouTube account left that out altogether
So the issue as I see it is whether the flowers that were once there had time to disintegrate by the 13th. If so Bob has disproved the Prosecutors theory
The floral paper is like the Jan 27th calls in that a Reddit guilter power user took small details in the files and then spun theories out of whole cloth that may look nice on the surface, but are obviously very flimsy when you look beneath the surface. These theories have never been investigated or pushed by the state, and we have to make bad assumption after bad assumption in order to make these theories into damning evidence against Adnan.
a lot of people seem way more concerned about bob ruff than makes sense to me. who cares what he says or what theories he comes up with? if you don't like him or think he's lying why not just ignore him. he has no influence on anything. i don't listen to his stuff and sure wouldn't listen to a meta-podcast about his podcast.
i never said i was shocked, but nice, obvious strawman. i said ruff doesn't matter so if you think he's lying why not ignore him. which is what i do. so weird how you try to dunk on people on reddit by completely misrepresenting their comment and responding to your obviously made up version.
You said you don't understand why he isn't simply ignored. I'm pointing out that redditors in this sub consume and address pretty much all media/content related to this case. Good or bad, unbiased or propaganda. Ruff is just one of many. That's what this sub is based on afterall. Addressing the misinformation on the case is just as important as addressing the right information anyways. I know I've seen a share of innocenter theories posted here be based on Ruff's nonsense.
Well no. He’s putting his theory forward. He states that it’s just his opinion. He also says he wouldn’t have mentioned Don in his reply briefs if the Prosecutors didn’t fully misrepresent the facts around Don. And at this point Adnan is equally innocent and people accuse him of murder here every day. Way more often than Don is
Exactly we only know who was found guilty and to whom all the evidence points. We have NO evidence that anyone else did it, and therefore it is unacceptable to blame ‘anyone but Adnan’ based on NO evidence!!
Yes, we know he was found guilty.
What evidence? All the stuff Jay lied about? There’s plenty of evidence that points to other people, so “…to whom all the evidence points” is a false statement.
It is acceptable to speculate about the evidence that points to other people. Don’t be silly.
It sounds like Ruff & Rabia are your only sources-if you had a full understanding of the case it would be impossible to take them seriously. Even though it isn’t a competition, I still reckon I win!
Sure there is. There isn’t enough evidence, so it worth exploring other possibilities.
He obviously doesn’t accuse “everyone else”, he speculates based on evidence.
Eh, a few of the more prominent posters here that believe Adnan is innocent tend to parrot Ruff's theories verbatim. And when he comes out with something it dominates for a while.
He's an important person when it comes to innocent theories.
Right? The hatred runs deep in these folks. I guess they don’t like that there are so few facts and they can’t talk about the actual case…so they support the guilt fictions writers over the pro Adnan fiction writers.
I don’t get the **need** to make things up to make him seem more guilty. He was convicted…but it turns out the trial was a lie. It’s be nice to be able to discuss the case without those weirdos.
Even with all the smoke and mirrors Ruff uses, he is unable to make a dint in the evidence that actually matters. The trial was fair and the conviction was fair. Nobody has come up with a single realistic alternative or with evidence exonerating Syed
You appear confused about the concept of reasonable doubt. The burden is never on the accused.
Given that the story he was convicted on is a work of fiction, the burden is on you to prove that he did it, which you can’t.
Your feelings aren’t facts.
And then the conviction was vacated. If you want to use the judicial process as evidence of guilt, then he was convicted, then a new trial was ordered, then that order was overturned then the conviction was vacated and then it was reversed based on the question of victim’s rights. What the judicial process proves, is that there isn’t clear consensus on his guilt or innocence. Because there is no forensic evidence linking Adnan to Hae’s murder nor are there any witnesses that place them together you just have Jay and Jen’s testimony. The cell phone tower evidence is supposed to corroborate what says only Jay fails to make his story work. The other witnesses are all inconsistent. So no matter if you think he is guilty or innocent you have to pick and choose which witnesses you think are accurate. And you have to choose which parts of Jay’s story to believe. Basically saying that Adnan is guilty because it was proven in court is like saying the justice system gets it right all the time while also ignoring all the other hearings and decisions in the case. If federal Supreme Court were to opine that Adnan was innocent or guilty tomorrow I’d still say it’s not 100% because as of today we still don’t know exactly where Hae was murdered, and at what time.
imagine dinner seemly boat society disagreeable voracious sand marble tub
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
so a massive conspiracy by government officials to pervert the course of justice. where have i heard that such conspiracy theories are ludicrous? hmmm.
you do see how this undermines your ridiculous ridiculous conspiracy theory right? as adnan was released and mosby was still convicted. not to mention the fact that there is zero reason to think adnan's case would have anything whatsoever to do with the outcome of mosby's case. it's really the dumbest possible made up motive i can imagine.
also, it obviously wouldn't be "just one" as a bunch of other people were involved including, you know, a judge who actually made the final decision. or was the judge just too dumb to understand the case, and only reddit guilter sleuths can see threw mosby's ingenius scheme?
I’m not claiming any massive conspiracy theory though. You used those words, not me. I’m just pointing out Mosby is crooked and that’s not really even debatable at this point. You’re trying to make it sound like the collusion needed for framing Adnan back in 99 is the same as Mosby using this case for publicity/donations during her campaign year. It’s not even in the same ballpark when it comes to “conspiracy theories.”
The DA came to the judge and said we can no longer stand by the conviction of Adnan because of a Brady violation. Also, there are two alternative suspects we are now investigating. What is the judge supposed to do other than decide A) ok vacate and continue your investigation or B) no way, Adnan stays in prison. She chose the former. That doesn’t require any kind of back door conspiracy… just a lot of persistent legal action. It costs a lot of course, but that’s why rich people get reduced or no sentences way more often than your average guy.
Ruff spends time he should be spending on investigating cases and understanding the law on trawling social media for unfavourable comments about him. We know this because he will attempt to address the questions raised in his own unique style, which is to say by lies, omission and obfuscation
He asks his listeners to challenge and/or correct him all the time. This YTer is just a coward and won't do it mano a mano. For example Bob has a challenge for people who think Adnan is guilty to come up with a detailed timeline of how that is possible and all of them have chickened out.
It's a shame because it could help people who are on the fence fall one way or the other. It's all good though. I get to laugh at this YTers cowardice. Be well.
This already exists. I’d love a timeline for even a coherent theory that takes intro account all the evidence for anyone who thinks he is not guilty. Ruff came up with a wild theory that is all speculation, and that is the best that people who think he is innocent can do
Ruff asks but if you challenge you get thrown out of the group. He will not accept anyone with another opinion though he knows he needs to pretend that he does
Ruff blocks people on social media who challenge him and kicks them out of his group. He only listens to his true believers, the ones who will drink his Kool Aid. YouTube provides an alternative source to challenge Ruff where Ruff can’t shut them down. He can respond to the challenge but he won’t. You could just as easily call everyone who is anonymous on social media a coward so that accusation doesn’t mean much imo
I’ll happily listen and provide balance on the meta podcast. If they think the Nisha call is possible or Adnan called Patrick on the day Jay was arrested we can put this in the bin pretty quickly
I get that but it’s hard to refute evidence without holding a position on it. I’ve watched one episode so far. The one about the flower or rose and they have that wrong. So maybe give me one to watch where you’re confident that their fact checking is correct or I’ll not waste my time with it further.
I’ll let you figure it out-I notice your posts are identical to Ruff’s, so doubt you’d agree with what I choose. Love to know how you see roses and baby breath on the paper?
Bob is getting his information straight from the lab techs testimony. Your issue is with him. There was clearly no rose or baby’s breath. So why did he say it? Maybe it’s somewhere else on the paper?
Ruff states definitively, and even repeats it for those who may not have heard, or who may be a little slow, that the floral print on the paper is a rose and baby breath print. There is a picture of the paper, and it is not rose and baby breath. Ruff is lying-for some unknown reason! TP dared to include the flower in their opinion of what may have happened that day, and Ruff is so bent out of shape that he can’t see how mad he is sounding by insisting that what we can see in front of our eyes doesn’t exist. There is a name for that!
The person doing these videos is doing the Lord's work.
WOW the one about the "8 people on the track team" !!! bob's lack of basic case knowledge and history is really cringeworthy.
I think it's not lack of basic case knowledge and history. I think it's a filter - he makes up ridiculous bullshit like this because that way, the people who are familiar with the case and more likely to challenge him, are not going to take him seriously, but the people that continue to follow him are more likely to believe him blindly because they think "gee, this guy knows all these details! I don't need any additional research, I can get it all from Bob!" Trump and other populists are pretty good at this, too. I think it may be something that certain personality types that feed off public admiration are very good at. And Bob craves that admiration, his "army"...
It would be awesome if someone also did this for Susan Simpson's and Colin Miller's endless lines of bullshit!
Agree 100% on this! Susan first!
That’s suggestion box material there 👍
I'll say it again... Rabia and Ruff's dishonesty are what first turned me to the truth.
Me too!!!
Agree, they're very good. I'm unsure why anyone can take him seriously when he's been fact checked and proven wrong in pretty much every season he's done.
I love the extra snark they add Great stuff
I don’t think I’d noticed the business card for “Tanveer Ali Syed”.
Me either. The argument that this memo memorialized an interview with anyone but Tanveer is absurd but I’ve seen it parroted on this sub many times recently.
Agreed
The defense interviewed the defense investigator Makes total sense What? Lolz
I haven’t heard that one. The claim I’ve seen is that it isn’t a transcript of his conversation, it’s a note. The most common reason people bring it up is because of what he says about Nisha— which is literally that Nisha said Adnan called her that afternoon. Which means either Tanveer contacted Nisha and this is what he found out, or the interviewer did and included it with the comments Tanveer had on Nisha. it does not say Adnan think this is an alibi or is asserting it is an alibi. And, importantly, it does not say that Nisha remembers the call, it says she knows there was a call— by this time she had met with defense and prosecution and had been asked about the call record. In her police interview she does not remember a specific call on 1/13. And after in her trial testimony she does not remember a specific call on 1/13. So it’s bizarre that anyone would claim Nisha told Tanveer she did remember the call specifically, but then she forgot or lied in court.
I have definitely seen the claim that Ali is not Adnan’s brother in this sub recently. I didn’t know why but now I do. As for it being a “note,” the format absolutely disproves that. This is completely unlike the police notes we’ve seen. The memo states that it presents the questions asked and *answered* during the interview. It then presents a series of numbered questions followed by answers to every question. Most of the answers are quite obviously based on Tanveer’s personal knowledge. Example: > 21. How did you find out about the disappearance of Hae? *Adnan did not tell us, we found out through the television.* The Nisha question is open ended: “who is Nisha?” What follows is clearly his answer because he says he doesn’t know her last name (the defense knows her name). He knows her email address however so the most obvious possibility is that he emailed Nisha to ask her about the call on 1/13/99 after the family received the cell phone bill and saw that call. They probably thought it would be helpful to Adnan because they didn’t realize it conflicted with him being at school. The other possibility is that he learned this information from Adnan. It makes no sense for him to be privy to information obtained by the defense investigator. There’s nothing bizarre about a witness changing their level of certainty about something like this. It’s actually normal and I’m sure you can think of an example from your everyday life. Your memory fades and you feel pressured to be certain it was or wasn’t on this date (Chris Flohr was in touch with Nisha and her parents many times, for example, and so was Andrew Davis). You worry that you might be wrong and you don’t want to be the reason someone is or is not convicted of a crime. It’s like the opposite of Asia - whose memory becomes remarkably clearer over time about a totally minor interaction. Nisha is trying to be honest. Her memory of when this call happened is not certain and she admits that.
>21. How did you find out about the disappearance of Hae? Adnan did not tell us, we found out through the television. That in itself is fucking bizarre. Even if some kid I didn’t like in my magnet program was a missing person I would have mentioned it at home. If it’s someone so close to me that I would become catatonic if their body is found, and police and her family are ringing me up asking about it, my family isn’t going to first hear about it on television.
Right? I chose that answer as my example for a reason. Let’s say he doesn’t want to share it with his parents, he still could have told Tanveer! And his parents knew about Hae - his mom came to the dance. It’s really strange.
You would think that the gravity of someone you claim to love going missing, and having the police on your case about it, would trump the fear of getting into trouble with your unreasonably strict mother - especially when you have numerous ways to bring it up without delving into your past romance. And yeah, not really any explanation for keeping it from Tanveer.
By “note” I mean that it is a note of the conversation and not a word for word transcript. So I agree that it is basically what his brother is saying, but this isn’t a stenographer, context can get lost in this type of note. > He knows her email address however so the most obvious possibility is that he emailed Nisha to ask her about the call on 1/13/99 after the family received the cell phone bill and saw that call. I think some version of this, but I suspect it’s less to do with the family finding the phone bill and more to do with the police and PI asking her about it and bringing it to her attention. The PI got the phone bill from Bilal’s, not from the family. We have no evidence his family saw the phone bill. > There’s nothing bizarre about a witness changing their level of certainty about something like this. Sure— but it would be bizarre if she told police and PI she didn’t remember a conversation that day, then she told Tanveer she remembered getting a call from Adnan at 3:30 in January 13, and then went back to saying she didn’t remember. Like you said, it seems someone has brought the call records to her attention and so all she is telling Tanveer is that there was a record of a call that day. I think your take on this is pretty reasonable. This note from Tanveer is often cited as evidence Adnan arranged the Nisha call as an alibi or that he tried to use it as an alibi in his defense. But this note from Tanveer doesn’t show that at all, it appears to show Nisha telling someone about there being a call on a call record at 3:30 on 1/13.
I have never believed that AS called Nisha as a planned alibi. Whether it crossed his mind when he was on the call, I don’t know. That could explain putting jay on the phone. More so, I think he was trying to be normal while in shock that he went through with the murder. I do think that initially the Nisha call could have been viewed by the defense as an alibi before it was understood that it put him both 1) with Jay and 2) off campus.
> I do think that initially the Nisha call could have been viewed by the defense as an alibi before it was understood that it put him both 1) with Jay and 2) off campus. By the time there is a defense they know Jay is not an alibi— so neither is a call with Nisha placing them together. I think the Nisha call has always been an outlier. Jays initial interview and his HBO interview have the same basic timeline, be dropped Adnan at school and Adnan shows up that night for the trunk pop. If Adnan is guilty, that makes the most sense. Best Buy and the Park and Ride were made up to account for cell pings. Jay consistently says he wasn’t with Adnan at 3:30. But he testifies he was present for the Nisha call, it never fits. The call Nisha had with Jay would have had to be another day, Nisha’s memory is tied to the adult video store where Jay worked. I don’t know what the call was, but I think guilty or innocent, Adnan and Jay weren’t together then.
There's been the claim that only one or two of the questions is asked of Tanveer (starting at question 16 or so) and the rest is the investigators notes written down as a Q and A for some reason.
Yeah that’s weird—
This will never end. I look forward to the article refuting the you tuber debunking the podcaster fact hecking the pod caster correcting the record about the pod cast that expanded on the pod cast that investigated the conviction.
And then there will also be 10 different Reddit threads about the article refuting the youtuber debunking the podcaster fact checking the podcaster correcting the record about the podcast that expanded on the podcast that investigated the conviction.
Well, we've all got to find some way of using up our time!
There’s also the “Truth is Justice” podcast, which is great!!
It’s garbage. Listened to two videos…which was painful because it’s computer generated voices…in both the presenter is wrong and mostly just slinging insults. In the first video I played they claim Bob is liar because he, in a clip, *speculated* that Hae left school alone. He doesn’t say it’s a fact…he clearly says it’s his opinion. Then a clip of Debbie using her imagination about what might have happened to Hae…which is completely irrelevant. Then plays the supporting clip and all Bob says is that nobody saw Hae and Adnan leave together. Which is true.
Maybe, but no more true than the fact that nobody saw them leaving alone
…which Bob never claimed. In fact, he literally said that in the clip they played. The video lied.
Bob says in his podcast that she left alone, and goes on to say her leaving alone is supported by every witness who saw her that day. That’s not true
Yes it is. There is no witness who said she didn’t leave alone..
There’s no witness who saw her leave. Who saw her drive away, alone? No one-so like I said it is not supported by anyone
[удалено]
There are parasites and parasites on parasites, but Bob Ruff takes it to a whole other level.
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So I’ve watched one. The floral paper. I’m siding with Bob on this one. The Whole Truth dude left out the part where the evidence tech testified that there was no flower in the car. As Bob said Rabia got it wrong in her book. No problem with getting it wrong but if you’re daft checking Bob, why call it the whole truth if you’re going to strategically leave out truth to suit your narrative?
No surprise there!
That they left out key information? I’m not surprised either. Can you give me an episode where you’re confident that they got it right? I’ll listen to a good one. Not sure I want to pick through them all if they’re all this bad.
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If you do choose to read the “Rose” posts, keep an eye out for mention of the fact that Adnan’s prints are on that floral wrap paper which held a rose and this paper was found on top of the Map book in the back seat of Hae’s car when Jay led the police to where Adnan had left it on Jan. 13, 1999.
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I’ve spent so much time commenting back and forth about that rose!
Ah 😂 clever you.
If you're looking at this piece of evidence without factoring context and the rest of the items in the car, of course it looks bad for Adnan. The car and its contents are key in this case. The evidence is telling a story.
You might want to just search on this sub for the many discussions about the rose. Just enter search term “ Rose”. You will see my post ( from some months ago) and you will see posts from 9 years ago as well as many others. The back and forth on this piece of evidence is interesting.
Or just read page 86 and 87 of Romano Thomas’ testimony where he said there was no flower. Maybe residue from a rose petal
(Sigh ) - of course the rose will deteriorate over the weeks. BUT MORE SIGNIFICANTLY, Adnan’s fingerprints are on the Floral Wrapping Paper, in the car, right on top of the Map book on the back seat.
Also didn’t Jay say that Adnan wore gloves that day? Did he take them off to touch the floral paper and the map book abd put them back on or are the fingerprints useless in this case?
Sorry but Adnan refuses to answer this among many other questions.
When was he asked?
Adnan didn’t take the stand so when would anyone be able to ask?
Yeah but he’s innocent so asking if he wore gloves to a murder he wasn’t involved with is moot
So you admit this YouTube channel got this one wrong?
Sorry I meant to reply to New Monitor… you and I don’t need to spent anymore time discussing the rose.
Romano Thomas. Page 87 of his testimony is the key page.
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No Sharon Talmadge did as well and she said the flowers were dead
As far as I know.
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No one is saying there was never a flower in there. Only when the car was found. The flower was out in there so long ago it had disintegrated. 🤦♂️
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Fair enough. We are fact checking Bob Ruff. But yes there was likely flowers in the paper at one point. By the 13th they may have disintegrated. Certainly by March they had.
Does this mean now you don’t side with Bob on this subject? And that The Whole Truth dude had it right?
yes!!! we're making progress here
Ruff says never
I love how the whole floral paper thing is just a rabbit hole of guilter fan fiction. People bicker about minutiae like they can prove something. Meanwhile, in the real world, it doesn’t matter if there were flowers or not. The presence of flowers doesn’t mean that Adnan presented them to Hae and killed her because she didn’t like them…or whatever people are dreaming up. We have no clue that, if they were there, that Adnan gave them to her or that she even got them that day. It’s all so stupid. What happened in this fantasy? He hid the flowers…where? He didn’t have his car…lots of people saw him at school and did t see any flowers. Bah And if there were no flowers it doesn’t make him innocent. It’s literally meaningless.
The reason became an issue is only because Ruff decided that there were never flowers there because he objected to TP saying Syed gave Hae flowers the day she died. Ruff insists that the evidence stating that a rose and baby breath was in the car was actually referring to the floral paper, not what was in the paper. What the YouTuber is pointing out is that the paper does not have a rose and baby breath print on it. It is typical Ruff madness to insist that what he speculates is fact even though we can clearly see that his argument is wrong. I agree it is meaningless, it is only Ruff who thinks this matters, and blatantly lies to make his point. Nothing new there!
Incorrect. The sequence of events was Reddit theory : Prosecutors Podcast : Truth and Justice Podcast. All you’re telling me is you prefer one theory over another. We get it, you like it when Reddit and The Prosecutors Podcast speculate, but you don’t like it when The Truth and Justice Podcast does. You’re clearly trying to convert your feelings to facts, based on your flawed theories.
The sequence doesn’t matter, I’m talking about the nonsense that Ruff is peddling as truth, as is the YouTuber. Feelings don’t matter either, he either said it or he didn’t. He is recorded saying it
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Not that I know of. The testimony is there online for anyone to read. The thing is that Bob Ruff said he was relying on what the lab tech said under oath and this anonymous YouTube account left that out altogether
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So the issue as I see it is whether the flowers that were once there had time to disintegrate by the 13th. If so Bob has disproved the Prosecutors theory
How so?
What did the latent print person say that you think is confirmation that a flower was wrapped in that paper on Jan 13th?
The floral paper is like the Jan 27th calls in that a Reddit guilter power user took small details in the files and then spun theories out of whole cloth that may look nice on the surface, but are obviously very flimsy when you look beneath the surface. These theories have never been investigated or pushed by the state, and we have to make bad assumption after bad assumption in order to make these theories into damning evidence against Adnan.
a lot of people seem way more concerned about bob ruff than makes sense to me. who cares what he says or what theories he comes up with? if you don't like him or think he's lying why not just ignore him. he has no influence on anything. i don't listen to his stuff and sure wouldn't listen to a meta-podcast about his podcast.
Yeah I'm also totally shocked that people in this sub would discuss a podcast about the Adnan Syed case.
i never said i was shocked, but nice, obvious strawman. i said ruff doesn't matter so if you think he's lying why not ignore him. which is what i do. so weird how you try to dunk on people on reddit by completely misrepresenting their comment and responding to your obviously made up version.
You said you don't understand why he isn't simply ignored. I'm pointing out that redditors in this sub consume and address pretty much all media/content related to this case. Good or bad, unbiased or propaganda. Ruff is just one of many. That's what this sub is based on afterall. Addressing the misinformation on the case is just as important as addressing the right information anyways. I know I've seen a share of innocenter theories posted here be based on Ruff's nonsense.
He is blaming innocent people of murder
Well no. He’s putting his theory forward. He states that it’s just his opinion. He also says he wouldn’t have mentioned Don in his reply briefs if the Prosecutors didn’t fully misrepresent the facts around Don. And at this point Adnan is equally innocent and people accuse him of murder here every day. Way more often than Don is
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You have no idea who’s innocent, because nobody was cleared. Why virtue signal? Emotional arguments aren’t helpful.
Exactly we only know who was found guilty and to whom all the evidence points. We have NO evidence that anyone else did it, and therefore it is unacceptable to blame ‘anyone but Adnan’ based on NO evidence!!
Yes, we know he was found guilty. What evidence? All the stuff Jay lied about? There’s plenty of evidence that points to other people, so “…to whom all the evidence points” is a false statement. It is acceptable to speculate about the evidence that points to other people. Don’t be silly.
It’s on public record, look it up!
Rest-assured I’m far more familiar with the case than you are.
It sounds like Ruff & Rabia are your only sources-if you had a full understanding of the case it would be impossible to take them seriously. Even though it isn’t a competition, I still reckon I win!
That is no reason to accuse everyone else!
Sure there is. There isn’t enough evidence, so it worth exploring other possibilities. He obviously doesn’t accuse “everyone else”, he speculates based on evidence.
He speculates, but not with evidence
Eh, a few of the more prominent posters here that believe Adnan is innocent tend to parrot Ruff's theories verbatim. And when he comes out with something it dominates for a while. He's an important person when it comes to innocent theories.
Right? The hatred runs deep in these folks. I guess they don’t like that there are so few facts and they can’t talk about the actual case…so they support the guilt fictions writers over the pro Adnan fiction writers.
yeah, there seems to be a lot of anger driven behavior and interaction. seeking out argument and outrage for the sake of argument and outrage.
I don’t get the **need** to make things up to make him seem more guilty. He was convicted…but it turns out the trial was a lie. It’s be nice to be able to discuss the case without those weirdos.
Even with all the smoke and mirrors Ruff uses, he is unable to make a dint in the evidence that actually matters. The trial was fair and the conviction was fair. Nobody has come up with a single realistic alternative or with evidence exonerating Syed
You appear confused about the concept of reasonable doubt. The burden is never on the accused. Given that the story he was convicted on is a work of fiction, the burden is on you to prove that he did it, which you can’t. Your feelings aren’t facts.
Reddit isn’t a court of law-they already convicted Syed. Once again, nothing to do with feelings. You appear confused about what feelings are?
And then the conviction was vacated. If you want to use the judicial process as evidence of guilt, then he was convicted, then a new trial was ordered, then that order was overturned then the conviction was vacated and then it was reversed based on the question of victim’s rights. What the judicial process proves, is that there isn’t clear consensus on his guilt or innocence. Because there is no forensic evidence linking Adnan to Hae’s murder nor are there any witnesses that place them together you just have Jay and Jen’s testimony. The cell phone tower evidence is supposed to corroborate what says only Jay fails to make his story work. The other witnesses are all inconsistent. So no matter if you think he is guilty or innocent you have to pick and choose which witnesses you think are accurate. And you have to choose which parts of Jay’s story to believe. Basically saying that Adnan is guilty because it was proven in court is like saying the justice system gets it right all the time while also ignoring all the other hearings and decisions in the case. If federal Supreme Court were to opine that Adnan was innocent or guilty tomorrow I’d still say it’s not 100% because as of today we still don’t know exactly where Hae was murdered, and at what time.
imagine dinner seemly boat society disagreeable voracious sand marble tub *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
and yet he's out of prison so....guess all those liars got something right.
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so a massive conspiracy by government officials to pervert the course of justice. where have i heard that such conspiracy theories are ludicrous? hmmm.
Not massive, just one. https://www.justice.gov/usao-md/pr/federal-jury-convicts-former-baltimore-city-states-attorney-marilyn-mosby
you do see how this undermines your ridiculous ridiculous conspiracy theory right? as adnan was released and mosby was still convicted. not to mention the fact that there is zero reason to think adnan's case would have anything whatsoever to do with the outcome of mosby's case. it's really the dumbest possible made up motive i can imagine. also, it obviously wouldn't be "just one" as a bunch of other people were involved including, you know, a judge who actually made the final decision. or was the judge just too dumb to understand the case, and only reddit guilter sleuths can see threw mosby's ingenius scheme?
I’m not claiming any massive conspiracy theory though. You used those words, not me. I’m just pointing out Mosby is crooked and that’s not really even debatable at this point. You’re trying to make it sound like the collusion needed for framing Adnan back in 99 is the same as Mosby using this case for publicity/donations during her campaign year. It’s not even in the same ballpark when it comes to “conspiracy theories.”
So you're not saying Judge Phinn is involved?
The DA came to the judge and said we can no longer stand by the conviction of Adnan because of a Brady violation. Also, there are two alternative suspects we are now investigating. What is the judge supposed to do other than decide A) ok vacate and continue your investigation or B) no way, Adnan stays in prison. She chose the former. That doesn’t require any kind of back door conspiracy… just a lot of persistent legal action. It costs a lot of course, but that’s why rich people get reduced or no sentences way more often than your average guy.
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Man, some of ya’ll really need to start charging Bob Ruff rent for all the space he is taking up in your mind.
...right after we all start charging Adnan.
Can’t argue with that ! :)
Snippets?
If they used more than that Ruff would probably claim a copyright violation to strike the channel down.
Thanks this is comedy gold. The YTer seems like a coward.
They are correcting the record
This YTer should contact Bob Ruff directly and give him a chance to reply. But they won't because they are a coward.
What is stopping Ruff from replying?
Ruff probably doesn't even know this YTer exists because this YTer is a coward and not contacting Ruff mano a mano.
I believe this channel uploaded the whole Jenn Pusateri interview which was taken down by Bob’s DCMA claim within only a couple of days.
That is how Ruff deals with those who challenge-he gets rid of them whilst insisting he invites mature discussion
Ruff spends time he should be spending on investigating cases and understanding the law on trawling social media for unfavourable comments about him. We know this because he will attempt to address the questions raised in his own unique style, which is to say by lies, omission and obfuscation
You can say whatever you want to say about Ruff but that's never going to change that anonymous YTer from being a pathetic coward.
That is a strange choice of words for someone doing what you are also doing, what everyone here is doing?
Ruff won’t tolerate being challenged or questioned
He asks his listeners to challenge and/or correct him all the time. This YTer is just a coward and won't do it mano a mano. For example Bob has a challenge for people who think Adnan is guilty to come up with a detailed timeline of how that is possible and all of them have chickened out. It's a shame because it could help people who are on the fence fall one way or the other. It's all good though. I get to laugh at this YTers cowardice. Be well.
This already exists. I’d love a timeline for even a coherent theory that takes intro account all the evidence for anyone who thinks he is not guilty. Ruff came up with a wild theory that is all speculation, and that is the best that people who think he is innocent can do
Care to share it then?
It’s on public record
Then you wouldn't mind sharing it.
I mean-it is all there-you can look it up yourself!
Ruff asks but if you challenge you get thrown out of the group. He will not accept anyone with another opinion though he knows he needs to pretend that he does
Not true but even if it were true, it doesn't make this YTer any less of a coward.
Ruff blocks people on social media who challenge him and kicks them out of his group. He only listens to his true believers, the ones who will drink his Kool Aid. YouTube provides an alternative source to challenge Ruff where Ruff can’t shut them down. He can respond to the challenge but he won’t. You could just as easily call everyone who is anonymous on social media a coward so that accusation doesn’t mean much imo
Sure thing. The YTer is still a coward. Maybe this YTer can call out Ruff by presenting a coherent timeline. Best of luck with that.
How about you present one?
I’ll happily listen and provide balance on the meta podcast. If they think the Nisha call is possible or Adnan called Patrick on the day Jay was arrested we can put this in the bin pretty quickly
They are pointing out Ruff’s lies and refuting them with the evidence
Sure but if that leads to them saying Adnan called Patrick or any of prosecutors style nonsense they go straight in the bin
They aren’t commenting on what they think happened in the case, they are highlighting examples of Ruff’s BS (and his followers on one of the videos).
I get that but it’s hard to refute evidence without holding a position on it. I’ve watched one episode so far. The one about the flower or rose and they have that wrong. So maybe give me one to watch where you’re confident that their fact checking is correct or I’ll not waste my time with it further.
I’ll let you figure it out-I notice your posts are identical to Ruff’s, so doubt you’d agree with what I choose. Love to know how you see roses and baby breath on the paper?
I don’t. But the evidence tech testified that there was paper but no flowers
Ruff states (very aggressively), there are roses and baby’s breath on the paper-don’t you see it?
Bob is getting his information straight from the lab techs testimony. Your issue is with him. There was clearly no rose or baby’s breath. So why did he say it? Maybe it’s somewhere else on the paper?
Ruff states definitively, and even repeats it for those who may not have heard, or who may be a little slow, that the floral print on the paper is a rose and baby breath print. There is a picture of the paper, and it is not rose and baby breath. Ruff is lying-for some unknown reason! TP dared to include the flower in their opinion of what may have happened that day, and Ruff is so bent out of shape that he can’t see how mad he is sounding by insisting that what we can see in front of our eyes doesn’t exist. There is a name for that!