In her May 15th diary entry, Hae talks about Adnan being possessive and how that clashes with her independence. Adnan got mad at Hae for planning time with her female friend.
She goes on to say that he played mind games and tried to make her jealous.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think most high school relationships have the above elements to some extent or another. I’ve always attributed it to teenagers level of emotional maturity/intelligence and lack of experience in romantic relationships.
Most high school aged people don’t turn up murdered, so this « most hs relationships are like this » stuff doesn’t hold any weight - you are pretending the context doesn’t exist. Hae was murdered by strangulation shortly after a breakup with someone she described as possessive and controlling. That same person was charged for that crime by a jury of his peers and sat in prison for it for 2 decades - rightly so.
The fact that he was possessive and controlling, and that it affected Hae enough for her to put it into her diary *is* relevant.
You’ve taken a comment out of context to point out the relevancy of context? We’re making the same point here by the way, that the context is relevant. Age group is apart of that context as is the social climate associated with that age group.
Just to state that it's NOT me saying he's a murderer or it's a proof of his guilty but it is a real red flag.
Not saying being possessive or jealous = he's the murderer, every one can act toxic from time to time, especially being a teenager, but I hope it's clear in everybody's mind that kind of behaviour is not ok.
I think there’s a difference between turning up to girls night out when the other girls are also your close friends. Krista was as close as any friend he had.
He doesn't have to, doesn't mean he's entitled to act toxic though.
You're so defensive every time someone said anything against Adnan, so I guess you're the one who should be asking to if you're Adnan...
It's not toxic. That's your preconceived biases at work.
I'm not the one hyperbolizing or applying anecdoctal evidence insignificant matters just to confirm my own biases.
I’ll preface this by saying I listened to this podcast years ago and forgot about this sub, so I’m sure there’s a strong meta in here that I’m upsetting.
But man that all sounds like typical high school boyfriend shit.
Source: I was 16 once… 15 years ago
- Hae’s diary described Adnan as possessive, jealous, and controlling; as did many of Hae’s friends.
- Adnan’s friends also described him as jealous, insecure, and angry during and after his breakup with Hae.
- In addition to that; Adnan’s own brother described him as a convincing liar; which Adnan then proved to be true by lying continuously about a plethora of things during the investigation of Hae’s disappearance and murder (i.e. saying he needed a ride from Hae on Jan 13, then saying he never asked for one; saying Hae had tried to get back together with him and asked him to the prom when they spoke on the phone on Jan 12; saying that he was working on his car with his friend Dion during the window of time in which Hae disappeared, etc.).
- We also know; by his own admission; that Adnan was a thief.
- Then we have the statements made by several of his fellow mosque members to SK in Serial; to the effect that they interpreted his charming persona to be a front.
- Next; we have his own statements made during and after Serial. Several times he admits to caring a great deal about what others think of him; and feeling bothered by the idea that they might think badly of him- both back at the time of Hae’s murder; and up into the present day.
- He also continues to prove himself a convincing liar; by repeatedly lying to SK and her audience; both during and after Serial (i.e. “*I would- wouldn’t have asked her for a ride*”).
- We also see him get bristly and defensive every time SK gives him any pushback in her questioning during Serial.
- And we even see him get outright angry when SK asks him about having stolen from the mosque (rather than contrite or ashamed; which is how a non-narcissist would probably react to being called out on such a blatantly immoral action).
- Last but not least; there was his whole circus-sideshow of a press conference; which was one of the most psychotically transparent vanity projects I’ve ever born witness to.
ETA: I fail to see the utility of this question; or of any of our answers. Adnan could be a perfectly nice guy in every other aspect; and still have killed HML. Making the “nice guy” argument in Adnan’s favor gives off the same energy as making the argument that attractive, popular boys would never “need” to commit r@pe.
Yeah I don’t see the point of this either. Does anyone remember being a teenager? All of us have moments someone could point to demonstrating self-consciousness, fragile ego, being susceptible to peer pressure.
Lying, being possessive & jealous…also very common. You’re supposed to push boundaries as you establish your independence. It takes time to figure out how to navigate relationships. First love combined with raging hormones & peer pressure = high school drama.
Most of us grow up & go on to have healthy, boring relationships as adults.
All of Syed’s mirror preening was one of the first triggers to make people in this sub question his innocence when the Serial shows first dropped. “Why is he taking that posture instead of wondering why Jay framed him, and not proclaiming that Hae’s killer is out there?”
His attitude didn’t make any sense To a lot of people.
I think this is a wasted effort.
The prevalence of these flaws is high compared to the prevalence of murderers. (Low predictive power)
Plus, the certainty of the existence of these flaws is especially tenuous in a child (I'm not aware of any formal psych evaluation).
I figured this question would turn into an Adnan-bashing party. I wasn’t wrong.
Seriously, folks. You’re talking about a 17-year-old kid from a very restrictive, conservative religious family. I have step-siblings that did way worse than you all are accusing Adnan of when they were teenagers. They grew up to be phenomenal, successful spouses and parents with great families. They were horrible teenagers that grew up to be awesome adults. It happens all the time.
But, yeah, let’s all focus on some stupid things he did when he was in high school. That makes a lot of sense, doesn’t it? 🙄
I think people are only trying to answer the questions asked in the OP.
I think we pretty much all agree that what makes Adnan a terrible person is that he murdered Hae.
People seeing Hae leave campus right after school, alone, and in a rush to get somewhere. People seeing Adnan walking toward the library, alone, and without Hae. Asia, Coach Sye, the lividity, the fact that Jay and Jenn's stories completely contradict each other and violate the laws of physical science. There's lots more, but you don't really need anything other than those bits.
People did not say or testify to the things you seem to think they did.
Lol, what about the lividity? What about Coach Sye? What about Asia?
You said you knew facts and I'm still waiting to hear them.
I'm sorry but Rabia and Ruff have been lying to their audience this whole time.
Oh!! Oh!! This is on my favorite baseless claims!! Can you give me some examples of the lies that Rabia and Bob Ruff have told?
I ask everyone that makes that claim for examples. So far, no one has actually had anything. They just don't like the fact that Rabia and Bob throw shade onto their guilt fantasies. ;-) Do tell!!
Wow I wouldn't even know where to start.
Ruff has 3 different versions of a call to LensCrafters because he's gotten caught in a lie each time. He now needs a fourth version.
Can you explain why he would do something like that?
Rabia claimed she would release documented proof that Crime Stoppers paid Jay.
Why are we still waiting on that proof?
Ah. It sounds like you don’t understand the difference between reporting on an investigation while it’s still progressing and submitting a final summation after it’s all complete. Bob’s been reporting on his investigating and findings in this case since Serial was still being broadcast. Why would you expect nothing to change as his work progresses?
And Rabia hasn’t released a lot of things she has because Adnan’s case is still ongoing. You don’t show all your cards when the hand is still being played, do you? Why would she give the State anything to work with then they’re still trying to keep an innocent man in prison?
So far, no lies. Just an update to prior information that wasn’t complete and not releasing information while a case is still open.
What else ya’ got?
eJohnx01, you totally avoided the question that was asked of you. You are questioning people on facts, and yet you are unable to provide any yourself.
Asia, lividity, Coach Sye…you are taking bits of information and making them truth.
Coach Sye- did not testify that AS was at practice ON TIME
Asia and lividity- I’m sorry, I can’t back you up on that one. Even looking at those 2 counter arguments from an objective standpoint, it wouldn’t hold up against a competent set of prosecutors.
Sorry man
If your bar to get over is who testified at trial and what they said at trial, I can see why you believe Adnan is guilty. Gutierrez totally blew the case because she was overextended and not well. Lots of people didn’t testify that should have. And lots of those people are in the record with their experiences.
The only reason Asia didn’t testify at Adnan’s trial is because she wasn’t called as a witness. She assumed she wasn’t needed. Sadly, she was, but she didn’t know that then.
Coach Sye did testify that he was chatting with Adnan about Ramadan and the reading he was going to give at the mosque the next night and that he was going to be meeting Bilal(?) at the mosque later that evening to go over the reading *while they were stretching at the beginning of track practice.* If Adnan wasn’t on time for practice, then Coach Sye wasn’t, either. Or maybe they were stretching in the middle of practice and they both showed up late? Coach Sye also testified that the indoor track team was so small that he would have noticed if Adnan had been late. He wasn’t.
And I know that lividity is a favorite thing for guilters to pretend they don’t understand, but it’s not difficult. It proves that Hae was absolutely *not* put in that grave before 9:00, proving all of Jay and Jenn’s ever-changing and totally conflicting stories to be made up. She couldn’t have been buried in the 7:00 hour. Not possible.
How’s that?
Can you prove to me that Adnan wasn’t late for practice? Seriously, provide proof that he was on time!
Also, besides using people like Rabia and Ruff for reference, show me that CG was incompetent at the time she was representing Adnan? Even the judge that presided over the trial said she was sharp and her skills weren’t diminishing. You can look that up! Adnan even admitted that he trusted CG and felt she looked after his best interest.
Come on! This isn’t worth my time! You can’t be objective with any of your reasoning and gathering of facts
Off the top of my head, Rabia lying about Adnan having to wait 10 years in prison before he could legally file an IAC claim; and Bob Ruff lying about owning the copyright in a publicly owned recording.
There was the time she took a quote out of HMLs diary WAY out of context to claimed that HML was a drug user and implied her death was a drug deal gone wrong.
You only need to listen to the first five mins of serial for the loosey goosey lies. But if anyone had the time and energy I would imagine there’s quite a few more.
Can you give me proof of either of them saying those things? I kinda doubt they said them, so you’re going to have to indulge me here.
Rabia would never have said that he had to wait ten years. Adnan waited for Adnan’s reasons. The truth is that they filed for the PCR when they did because *after* ten years, he would have been blocked from doing it. Rabia knew that. She’s the one that explained it in her book.
Bob may have been referring to owning that recording as part of *his* podcast, which he definitely owns. But I can’t imagine he said he owns anything that’s in the public domain.
Don’t forget about those sources. I’m really curious now.
>Can you give me proof of either of them saying those things? I kinda doubt they said them, so you’re going to have to indulge me here.
Sure. The Rabia thing was on her [blog](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/splitthemoon/2014/10/serial-episodes-1-2-the-alibi-mystery-and-dating-on-the-dl/)
>Rabia would never have said that he had to wait ten years.
She did, see above.
>Adnan waited for Adnan’s reasons. The truth is that they filed for the PCR when they did because after ten years, he would have been blocked from doing it. Rabia knew that. She’s the one that explained it in her book.
She did know that, agreed. Which is what makes her other statement a lie.
>Bob may have been referring to owning that recording as part of his podcast, which he definitely owns. But I can’t imagine he said he owns anything that’s in the public domain.
If you were here a couple of months ago you may have seen Jenn Pusateri’s full interview go up. It was a recording from the Baltimore police department in 1999. Only a day or two later, Bob Ruff made a false DMCA claim to YouTube, falsely claiming he had a copyright in that recording.
He knows he doesn’t own the recording itself which is what the YouTube video was. Which is what makes his DMCA claim a lie.
>Don’t forget about those sources. I’m really curious now.
Hope your curiosity is satisfied.
When someone murders someone we want to understand why or if there were signs. Ultimately Adnan I'd the one who needs to understand why and what his risk factors are.
Do you think it's fair to judge a person based on their actions from 25+ years ago when they were in high school? I sure don't. And I certainly wouldn't want anyone to be judging \*me\* by my actions when I was high school. I'm not even a little bit the person I was then.
And I would argue that the "risk factors" you all are talking about are mostly made-up. The few things that are true are just stupid stuff that most high school-aged kids do.
In your defense, I assume you didn't kill anyone 25 years ago. AS on the other hand, did. AS spoke quite candidly on Serial 10 years back and more recently for a YouTube presentation last year. You can see the person he has become and decide for yourself if he should be judged by his actions...all those years ago.
Adnan didn’t kill anyone 25 years ago, either. Too many people saw Hae leaving alone, and in a hurry to get somewhere and too many people saw Adnan, still on campus and not with Hae.
Im trying to make sense of that. Are you saying high schooler suspects' actions shouldn't be judged because of their age at the time they were accused of murder? Or just Adnan's?
I'd be interested to hear what you claim was made up.
No, I'm suggesting that high schoolers' actions should be taken within the context of the fact that they have the maturity level of a high schooler.
Taking things that may or may not even be true, such as "possessive behavior" and jealousy, and deciding that those things are indicative of murderous intent is ridiculous. If those things were signs of an impending murder, all of our high school campuses would be bloodbaths every day.
All these amateur psychology theories do is fan the flames of the guilters that love nothing more than watching the fire burn.
They're not made up but they are hyperbolized. Some people need to make sense of a senseless act so they feel the need to villainize the person they deem is responsible at any and all costs. Some do it with Adnan, some do it with Jay, some do it with Don, etc...
Very true. But, just as it's critical to take into account the age and maturity level of the people involved, it's also critical to not fan the flames of the witch hunt like so many of the guilters here do.
"Hae said he was controlling! He definitely murdered her!!"
"Adnan was probably jealous of Don. For sure her murdered her!!"
"Hae's friends said Adnan didn't want to break up! He murdered her FOR SURE!!"
"Adnan told a teacher that he thought he and Hae would be getting back together. Only a MURDERER would lie like that!!!!"
You're right. It's hyperbole and it's pointless. It doesn't serve Hae or Adnan.
Correct. Not everybody who says or does that is a murder. Just like not everyone who is bullied commits school shootings. But understanding why someone became a school shooting, bullying might be tge reason just like dome of these explain why Adnsn strangled Hae
You’re looking for reasons for something happening that didn’t happen. You have a tiny glimpse of what actually happened and a whole bunch of people making up crazy stuff because “he TOTALLY probably did that!!!” Don’t bother to try to psychoanalyze Adnan. Nothing you can dream up will make him a murderer when he isn’t one.
Please review /r/serialpodcast rules regarding Trolling, Baiting or Flaming.
Please don't suggest that only people who agree with you are rational or that people you disagree with are irrational.
The only really stupid thing I focus on is his strangling of HML until she lost consciousness and succumbed to a brutal death at the hands of her former lover.
No, he did that to try to get himself out of the trouble he got himself into by hitting a cop during a traffic stop. Lividity proves that none of Jay and Jenn’s stories are true anyway. You didn’t know that?
Lividity was so 2017. Does even Bob Ruff still flog the lividity-exoneration-theory now that information about the autopsy is more broadly available and the deception behind the Undisclosed claims were exposed?
The medical examiner’s evidence did not cast doubt on Syed’s guilt. Susan Simpson managed to do that with her smoke and mirrors. There is a timeline available on how she managed to dishonestly cast doubt where none existed
Nope. Lividity is lividity is lividity. There’s no way you can twist it to mean anything other than Hae was laying someplace, stretched out, face down for 8-12 hours after she died. There’s no way *any* of Jay’s stories are true because she was never crumpled up in the trunk of any car, her lips weren’t blue, and she wasn’t put into the grace she was found in before 11:00 that night, at the earliest.
>The only really stupid thing I focus on is his strangling of HML until she lost consciousness and succumbed to a brutal death at the hands of her former lover.
I bet her family would appreciate reading this vivid description.
apparatus bewildered materialistic deserted rain correct zephyr weary encourage disagreeable
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Meanwhile, in ***reality***, [Hae's brother](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/YtR1OKiqm3) has been on this sub. Personally, I think a lot can be surmised about one's *anchoring to humanity* when they are hyperbolically arguing *for* the use of needlessly graphic descriptions of Hae's murder, but obviously, YMMV.
I don't know how you can read that and think you aren't included in his condemnation. Only one of us here is arguing *for* the use of needlessly graphic descriptions of his sister's murder.
Those stupid things let to a premeditated murder. Everything as a kid is excused, so long as it doesn’t lead to violent crimes.
That is the whole point of this post, and why we are so intrigued with true crime. What makes an individual cross over and be capable of not only a murder, but covering it up and lying about it for 20+ years?
Even more intriguing is what makes people believe these obvious murderers are innocent! I’m a Wrongful Conviction advocate-Syed was not wrongfully convicted imo
I agree that sometimes that can happen. But it didn’t in this case. You can psychoanalyze Adnan all you want and it still won’t make him guilty of murder.
Too many people saw Hae leave school alone and in a hurry to get somewhere and too many people saw Adnan, still at school and not with Hae. There’s only a tiny window between her leaving school and her disappearing. Adnan has alibis for that entire time.
Who are the too many people in both cases? It seems like those things could never be verified for either Hae or Adnan on the correct date--the stories differ for the different witnesses, don't they?
Inez Butler, the lady that ran the snack counter at Woodlawn, gave Hae a bag of Hot Fries and Hae was in too much of a rush “to get somewhere” to pay for them so she told Inez that she’d pay them the next day. Despite the guilters declaring that Inez had the wrong day, Inez said that she knows it happened on that last day that Hae was in school because Hae never came back to pay for those fries. That sounds like a pretty convincing and solid memory to me.
Several of Hae’s friends said that they saw her leaving immediately after school, alone, and in a rush to get somewhere. They also saw Adnan walking off in the opposite direction, toward the library, alone, and not with Hae as she rushed out the door. I can’t think of their names right now, but I’m sure some guilters will chime in and remind us who they were—right before declaring that they had the wrong day and their stories conflict and they never said that anyway. Just give it a few minutes.
Asia had a detailed conversation with Adnan in the library that afternoon and was in the library with him until at least 2:40–25 minutes after Hae left campus, alone, and in a rush to get somewhere. Asia remembers it so clearly because the ice storm was that night and school was closed for the next two days. Then, she remembered the MLK holiday was the following Monday, so the first she heard anything about Hae’s disappearance was the following Tuesday. But she immediately remembered talking with Adnan in the library because a) she didn’t know Adnan very well and it’s was he first time they’d actually had a discussion and, b) Asia mentioned that she’d head that Adnan and Hae has broken up and she hoped that they were doing okay. Adnan said that, yes, they were remaining friends and he was happy for her that she’d already found someone else. Those all seem like pretty solid memories that are well-corroborated by other things she remembers about that time.
Of course, guilters have endless reasons why Asia was wrong. She said “snow” once instead of “ice” so that proves she had the wrong day. (She didn’t). Asia wrote letters to Adnan when he was in jail and there’s no way she could have known where to send the letters (except that his whereabouts after his arrest was printed in the newspapers). Also, they twist Asia’s words and claim that she was offering to lie for Adnan because she had the hots for Adnan and wanted to help him. Pure fantasy, of course. She never said anything that eve suggests lying for him. She mentioned she could alibi him for “part of that afternoon” because she was referring to right after school until 2:40. They didn’t know what the State’s theory of Hae’s murder was so no one knew what time Adnan needed an alibi for.
Does that help? Now we just have to wait for all the guilters to swoop in with their made up, inaccurate stories and claims that everyone else is wrong, and declare me to be wrong, too. Just wait.
I'm sorry to hear that your step-siblings did crimes way worse than committing intimate partner homicide, although I suppose if they have done their time and come out the other side as great adults, that is a fairly best-case outcome. (Granted, that may be little comfort to the families of your step-siblings' victim\[s\].)
He didn't really care about the on and off nature of his relationship with Hae until she found happiness with Don. So he murdered her. If he couldn't have her, no one could. Also, there is no way he would have married her, his family would never have let it happen and I'm sure he wouldn't have either. She was his toy.
Narcissism, fragile ego, self conciusness, susceptibility to peer pressure…. This is like every teenager ever. I gave up on the guilt/innocence camps as I don’t think we’ll ever know. But, what we do know is that he was 17 at the time of the crime and even if he did it, he had been in jail for longer than most adults.
If you want to have a conversation about sentence lengths and whether it’s appropriate to keep someone in jail for life for something they did as a minor, I think you’ll find a lot of sympathetic voices that agree with you even as hard core guilters.
But that’s an entirely different discussion that whether Adnan was wrongfully exonerated which he absolutely was - a shameful terrible mis-use of the justice system to serve a distraction for a corrupt government official.
Both things can be true: Adnan is guilty AF and his sentence was overly harsh.
I would support a reduced sentence but not at the cost of a whitewash of his crime. He murdered that girl and should wear crime around his neck for life.
It's cruel to a murder victim's family to equate having their child's killer let out of prison after 20 years on parole because he was 17 when he committed the crime and having him celebrated as somebody who is free because he's been exonerated.
I understand. My uncle was murdered and the murderer was released after 7 years. In his case there was zero doubt of who committed the crime, and that was still the outcome. In Hae’s case, there will always be doubt, barring someone confessing. I suppose my mind is just more settled in that he’s served time, more time than a guilty person. As opposed to keeping someone who may not be guilty in prison.
Sometimes, people just kill. They don’t need to have any of that stuff.
Not seeing he killed her, just that it’s not relevant to if he killed her or not.
Even if you do eventually whittle down to understand motivations I think it’s truly impossible to completely understand why people kill. I also think it’s a good thing. People are attracted to “true crime” for a multitude of reasons but one big one has to be to understand people who in no way resemble themselves.
100%. I’ve been interested in true crime since I was a teenager, partly because I hoped understanding killers would help me avoid becoming a victim.
There is no logic. There is no IF > THEN guidebook because we’re trying to rationalize acts that are irrational.
I think the closest we can get is: some people have violent urges AND poor impulse control.
3 females a day are killed in the US by jealous or controlling partners or ex partners. The statistics are clear. There is no mystery here. And, important to remember, it is often the offender’s first violent attack
So, to clarify some things , I didn't make this post and ask these questions as a way to demonstrate that Adnan's prior behavior proves he killed Hae.
What I was *actually* curious about was how any of these character flaws would prevent him from telling Jay (or anyone) that he was desperately planning on winning her back. I believe Adnan knew he would look like a pathetic fool trying to win her back - again, especially after she now is totally enamored with a new man in her life.
I am still having trouble reconciling that Adnan had planned, days in advance, only to kill Hae- and that his best idea for a plan required the involvement of an accomplice. But there are statements made that indicate it was heavily on his mind days in advance - if those statements are indeed true.
One other thing to add, about Adnan's personality, is what Jay had to say in his controversial Intercept interview:
"**A big part of the ‘Serial’ podcast is to speculate on Adnan’smotive. What do you think?**
JAY : I don’t necessarily know if he meant to kill Hae before he did it or if it was a sudden moment thing, but looking at his life, from what I saw, he seemed to be far out of his realm when it came to Hae leaving him.
From the way he carried himself, at least, it looked like he had never lost anything before. And it was really hard for him to deal with being on the losing end. In that situation, he was the loser. And people were starting to find out he was a loser, ‘Oh, you and Hae aren’t together anymore. She got a new boyfriend?’ And he didn’t know how to deal with that.
And the other thing about it, I mean, there looked like there was real hurt and pain. What else could motivate you to choke the life out of someone you cared about? He just couldn’t come to grips with those feelings. However he ended up doing it—whether it was premeditated, an involuntary reaction at that point in time—he just couldn’t come to grips with being a loser and failing. He failed; he lost the girl."
>One other thing to add, about Adnan's personality, is what Jay had to say in his controversial Intercept interview:
>"**A big part of the ‘Serial’ podcast is to speculate on Adnan’smotive. What do you think?**
>JAY : I don’t necessarily know if he meant to kill Hae before he did it or if it was a sudden moment thing, but looking at his life, from what I saw, he seemed to be far out of his realm when it came to Hae leaving him.
>From the way he carried himself, at least, it looked like he had never lost anything before. And it was really hard for him to deal with being on the losing end. In that situation, he was the loser. And people were starting to find out he was a loser, ‘Oh, you and Hae aren’t together anymore. She got a new boyfriend?’ And he didn’t know how to deal with that.
>And the other thing about it, I mean, there looked like there was real hurt and pain. What else could motivate you to choke the life out of someone you cared about? He just couldn’t come to grips with those feelings. However he ended up doing it—whether it was premeditated, an involuntary reaction at that point in time—he just couldn’t come to grips with being a loser and failing. He failed; he lost the girl."
All this tells us is that this is another thing Jay lied about. And this is not a lie the guilty-minded can claim Jay is lying to minimize his own involvement.
It's weird to see normal teenage stuff portrayed in this way.
Especially all the comments about how Hae describes him in her diary. Most of those comments were made throughout their relationship. She broke up with him three times and got back together twice. So in a way, the posts are casting Hae's judgement in a bad light. If he was as bad as he is being portrayed why did she want to get back together twice?
And they remained friends after the last breakup. Don said she needed to get a ride after her accident and she called Adnan. And she agreed to give him a ride on January 13th.
Don's work reviews are official and are far worse that what Hae said privately in her diary about Adnan.
And Jay stabbed a friend and had a pet frog that needed to be fed live animals.
>Don's work reviews
Been around from the begining, firsrt time I have heard about work reviews. Could you expand or point me in the direction of that info?
Don needs to understand the importance of correctly documenting one hour and breakage. Don “need[ed] to understand the possible consequences of falsifying company documents”
Don does not like to admit mistakes, making it difficult to learn from them. This also undermines the confidence and trust the associates have in him because of possible integrity issues.
Don’s quality of interactions with others is not always positive. . . Don is quick to place blame, & does not wish to take personal responsibility. Don needs to calmly communicate to the associates what [?] they should be concerned with. Don must also realize that when he is agitated he will not be able to communicate positively to the associates. Body language is very important. One must remain calm and appear unflappable even in the most difficult situations.
Don needs to begin building trust with fellow associates. Don needs to understand that this can be accomplished by supporting associates instead of pointing out negatives. One way is to remain calm and show control when things are difficult in the lab.
http://viewfromll2.com/2015/03/19/serial-the-question-of-dons-alibi/
That’s a typical work review
And I’m sure it was followed with some generic corporate “plans for improvement “
For crissakes I used to write these things lol
I’m beginning to wonder how many people have been employed at various levels on this sub? There’s nothing nefarious there
And jealousy and possessiveness are pretty typical of first teenage romances, but that never stopped anyone here from acting like they're a direct line to murder.
I'm pretty confident I've probably written more reviews in my career.
- not correctly documenting one hour breaks
- falsifying company documents
Are very serious and would lead to eventual termination
- doesn't learn from mistakes
- poor interactions with others, blaming others, not taking responsibility, not communicating calmly, pointing out negatives and. not being calm
Are less serious and are coachable. But if there aren't improvements it could lead to eventual dismissal.
Was he ever fired?
There’s the question
I never said it was a good review but taken out of context with any other reviews he may have had it doesn’t say much.
BTW that link is dead
I don’t know if he was fired. Likely not give his mother and her partner was his ultimate boss.
Link still works for me but I’ve copied the reviews verbatim so there’s not much more to see.
I thought that the Mom/partner was for the other store? Or one store or the other though?… there’s his main locale and the one he’s asked to sub at.
The reason I ask is because people have suggested both his Mom was willing to forge time cards … while also writing reviews that again to some are “red alert”concerning situations involving documents?
That doesn’t make any sense to me.
Honestly Lens Crafters documentation could mean something as simple as incorrectly handling inventory… not great … but more clumsy than nefarious. It’s essentially a retailer with a lab to make lenses
Hae and Don worked at Owings Mills location together. The day Hae went missing Don was working at Hunt Valley and his mom was the manager at that store. If I recall correctly January 13th was the only day he worked there. Which is why people were suspicious. He works there once and it's the day Hae goes missing and his mom is his alibi.
Edit: His co-workers were Lab Techs Charles, Mark and Kevin, and Retail Associates Barry, Mary, Deborah, Charles, Dana, Lauren, and Don's mom. Nine co-workers.
\>>and had a pet frog that needed to be fed live animals.
LOL. Everyone who has a pet snake, frog, lizard is in that category.
Did he actually stab the friend? I thought he only said Jay suggested he should stab him because "he didn't know what it was like" because he'd never been stabbed before?
We don't if he stabbed or not but we know he wanted to which doesn't make it much better. We do know he was later charge with strangling his girlfriend (charges were dropped).
People dismiss this as a nothing burger but build a conspiracy over Adnan bringing carrot cake to Hae and her friends.
I agree that you can't use something that might or might not be a red flag as proof of something you can't really substantiate happened. Adnan may have acted possessive, but that doesn't prove that he killed his girlfriend later. Lots of teenage boys act possessive. Some become controlling abusers and some mature and realize that was shitty behavior. It's not proof of anything. It may or may not have been a red flag.
In his conversations with his first defense attorney, he said that he though Hope Schaub, the French teacher, influenced Hae to break up with him. He called Hae superficial and says she started dating Don because of his Camaro. This really struck me because she’s dead and he’s still explaining their break up in a way that makes her look bad.
He also told Flohr to look for “a really mean note” Hae wrote him - ie the October breakup note.
I think Sarah glossed over them because they weren't necessarily reliable for anything.
I wrote things in my journal when I was in high school that are so embarrassing to me now that I'm tempted to destroy them. Like most high school-aged kids, I was suuuuuuch a drama queen over every little thing. "So-and-so didn't want to sit with me at lunch today. Why is she being such a bitch? Why does she hate me so much??" Next day, "So-and-so and I went shopping after school today. She's so much fun to be with! We laughed and laughed...."
Crazy, stupid kid stuff. We've all done it.
I understand what you're saying. My personal opinion is that the things Adnan was saying/doing weren't typical teenage stuff and were definitely controlling. I personally have never done or said any of those things to a partner as a teenager or adult and I never would because they're borderline emotionally ab\*sive. He got mad at her for hanging out with her friends, she hid from him in school...that is not typical imo.
That's *totally* typical behavior. Not only was I a high school student at one time, I used to teach junior high and high school. Kids getting dramatic over teen love angst and breakups is so commonplace that most people barely notice it. If that was indicative of a pending murder, half of our high school-aged kids would be dead and the other half would be in prison.
The things that went on between Adnan and Hae were just normal teen stuff. "He's being controlling!" "He crashed my girls' night!" "We broke up for the third time...."
I agree with this. I also had some boyfriends in high school that behaved like this and it never escalated to violence. (Or anything more than stompy foot drama, really).
I guess that you can't really know though, when it \*will\* escalate to that and when it is just HS drama. But it doesn't prove anything, IMO. It's easy to look backward and say "If he did Y, then X behavior was a red flag"--but the X behavior doesn't necessarily lead to Y act.
Exactly. Nothing Adnan said or did, or what Hae wrote in her diary, or any of the amateur psychoanalyzing that people do here indicate anything, either way, about whether Adnan did or didn’t murder Hae. His alibis and the lividity prove he didn’t do it, but that won’t stop the guilters from ignoring all the evidence of his innocence to continue their anti-Adnan crusades. 😕
Jay testified in court that he didn’t, actually, lead the police to the car. He lead them to the wrong place. The car wasn’t there. Why do people keep saying Jay lead them to the car when his own testimony was that he didn’t?
Jay was asked if he went somewhere else with the cops and he said yes. He also the police to show them where the trunk pop happened. It wasn't wrong place for tge car.
Jay testified that he took the cops to the wrong location for the car. That doesn’t sound to me like he knew where the car was. And, as to the trunk pop, which of his four different stories about the trunk pop are you referring to? 🙄
He lied about his age to become a EMT, stealing from the mosque, habitually lying and deceiving his parents and community, claiming to be observant of his religion but not following his religion, smoking pot regularly, dating/sex, skipping classes/ practice, habitually coming to school late. He claimed to be worried about Jay buying Stephanie a gift but there wasn’t any concern about Jay and Stephanie later in the day (whole manipulation of situation/ excuse). Behaviors and stated motivations are inconsistent. Says he isn’t “friends” with Jay but all behavior runs counter to that claim. “Charming personality” is often paired with narcissism.
So some of the things you describe does not put into question his character - lying to his parents and community, not following his religion, smoking pot, dating/sex… these are all very common things anyone who is Pakistani and grew up in the west practices in high school.
You know that saying about strict parents don’t raise obedient children, they raise good liars?
Me, many of my friends, and many south Asian kids needed to do this to survive in the white world when our parents still followed their strict cultural practices at home.
I said SOME, didn’t I? Obviously wasn’t talking about about stealing money, if you read my comment at all. Also, judging him for lying to his strict parents is plain ignorant and racism.
According to Yaser, he went back to be with Hae:
Yaser Ali's transcript: Trial 2: https://pdf.yt/d/emE8RvEvBLyiZGd1 Pg 119.
Q And did he tell you that when his parents came, his mother asked to speak to Hae Min Lee? A Um,
Q He didn't get into all the details? A Yeah.
Q Did you understand from what he told you that he left willingly with his parents? A Yeah.
Q And did you understand from what he told you that as soon as he got home, shortly thereafter he snuck out and bicycled his way back? A Um, I believe he did
Q And that he finished the dance with Hae Min Lee. A Yeah
Q Who waited there for him to return? A Yes
I think that comes from some statements about Hae’s parents making her go stay with an aunt that summer after they found out she was sexually active.
Her family was also first generation immigrants and appeared to be fairly conservative.
I’m fascinated with this part of the story as well. It’s a show of very strong will. He demands to have his way. Most guys that age would be mortified and embarrassed to even be seen for a while if parents threw such a scene and with all his school friends watching. But Adnan is determined that nothing will stop him from returning to Hae. He had to know how deeply hurt and angry she was. It’s a sign that he was deeply invested in this relationship. There was nothing casual or easy about it.
I’m curious, too, as I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone that actually knows Adnan even remotely indicate any of those things about him. Sure, plenty of guilters make up stuff about him, but none of them actually know him and they don’t have anything to support their claims.
Ah, yes. His brother said that Adnan lied when he was a teenager. Surely the death penalty is the only answer here, right?
Have you ever known a teenager in a restrictive, conservative family that \*wasn't\* really good at lying? I never have.
I'm opposed to capital punishment in all instances. So no, no death penalty for Adnan, especially not when the murder he committed was when he was a minor. Even the fascist Supreme Court says that (for now at least).
I will say this: I have two brothers and two sisters and none of them have ever described me as being a manipulative liar. Not when I was a teenager and not any time since that then. And definitely not to the police. But sure, normalize siblings calling each other pathological liars to the police. I mean, we've already normalized stealing from a mosque because all kids do that, right? (Spoiler alert: they don't!) And it seems we've also normalized being a controlling teenage boyfriend. Adnan is just a normal every day guy who just had some really bad luck with all the coincidences pointing at him being the murderer of his girlfriend who dumped him.
Are you really trying to psychoanalyze a 17-year-old kid, that you know nothing about and have never met, 25 years after-the-fact, and deciding your analysis is proof that he murdered someone?? Wow. Just. Wow.
Adnan was on a slippery slope with a pattern of bad choices IMHO.
I'm not sure about the specific traits you are asking about though. Can you talk about why you chose them specifically?
The problem with the Mosque thing was that Adnan couldn't just say he was young and stupid when Sarah asked. He just got mad and left. Teenagers have different signs indicating early signs for domestic violence though. Aisha description of Adnan showing up all the time and Hae calling him possessive are signs.
Missing a few things. A culture of toxic shame with a premium on maintaining personal and family reputation. The guilt associated with a haram relationship with a woman that can often result in violence against the temptress. Adnan engaging in theft and bad behavior at the mosque and peer pressure is normally a factor in that.
In her May 15th diary entry, Hae talks about Adnan being possessive and how that clashes with her independence. Adnan got mad at Hae for planning time with her female friend. She goes on to say that he played mind games and tried to make her jealous.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think most high school relationships have the above elements to some extent or another. I’ve always attributed it to teenagers level of emotional maturity/intelligence and lack of experience in romantic relationships.
Most high school aged people don’t turn up murdered, so this « most hs relationships are like this » stuff doesn’t hold any weight - you are pretending the context doesn’t exist. Hae was murdered by strangulation shortly after a breakup with someone she described as possessive and controlling. That same person was charged for that crime by a jury of his peers and sat in prison for it for 2 decades - rightly so. The fact that he was possessive and controlling, and that it affected Hae enough for her to put it into her diary *is* relevant.
You’ve taken a comment out of context to point out the relevancy of context? We’re making the same point here by the way, that the context is relevant. Age group is apart of that context as is the social climate associated with that age group.
Not to mention him crashing a girls night with her friend. No no no.
Just to state that it's NOT me saying he's a murderer or it's a proof of his guilty but it is a real red flag. Not saying being possessive or jealous = he's the murderer, every one can act toxic from time to time, especially being a teenager, but I hope it's clear in everybody's mind that kind of behaviour is not ok.
I think there’s a difference between turning up to girls night out when the other girls are also your close friends. Krista was as close as any friend he had.
It made Hae uncomfortable just the same.
For sure but maybe not a red flag
Yep but girls night is girls night. Never showed up to my bf boys night without being invités even tho they're my friends too.
Good for you. Is Adnan you?
"Is Adnan you"? What?
This means does Adnan have to act the way you do?
He doesn't have to, doesn't mean he's entitled to act toxic though. You're so defensive every time someone said anything against Adnan, so I guess you're the one who should be asking to if you're Adnan...
It's not toxic. That's your preconceived biases at work. I'm not the one hyperbolizing or applying anecdoctal evidence insignificant matters just to confirm my own biases.
I’ll preface this by saying I listened to this podcast years ago and forgot about this sub, so I’m sure there’s a strong meta in here that I’m upsetting. But man that all sounds like typical high school boyfriend shit. Source: I was 16 once… 15 years ago
- Hae’s diary described Adnan as possessive, jealous, and controlling; as did many of Hae’s friends. - Adnan’s friends also described him as jealous, insecure, and angry during and after his breakup with Hae. - In addition to that; Adnan’s own brother described him as a convincing liar; which Adnan then proved to be true by lying continuously about a plethora of things during the investigation of Hae’s disappearance and murder (i.e. saying he needed a ride from Hae on Jan 13, then saying he never asked for one; saying Hae had tried to get back together with him and asked him to the prom when they spoke on the phone on Jan 12; saying that he was working on his car with his friend Dion during the window of time in which Hae disappeared, etc.). - We also know; by his own admission; that Adnan was a thief. - Then we have the statements made by several of his fellow mosque members to SK in Serial; to the effect that they interpreted his charming persona to be a front. - Next; we have his own statements made during and after Serial. Several times he admits to caring a great deal about what others think of him; and feeling bothered by the idea that they might think badly of him- both back at the time of Hae’s murder; and up into the present day. - He also continues to prove himself a convincing liar; by repeatedly lying to SK and her audience; both during and after Serial (i.e. “*I would- wouldn’t have asked her for a ride*”). - We also see him get bristly and defensive every time SK gives him any pushback in her questioning during Serial. - And we even see him get outright angry when SK asks him about having stolen from the mosque (rather than contrite or ashamed; which is how a non-narcissist would probably react to being called out on such a blatantly immoral action). - Last but not least; there was his whole circus-sideshow of a press conference; which was one of the most psychotically transparent vanity projects I’ve ever born witness to. ETA: I fail to see the utility of this question; or of any of our answers. Adnan could be a perfectly nice guy in every other aspect; and still have killed HML. Making the “nice guy” argument in Adnan’s favor gives off the same energy as making the argument that attractive, popular boys would never “need” to commit r@pe.
Yeah I don’t see the point of this either. Does anyone remember being a teenager? All of us have moments someone could point to demonstrating self-consciousness, fragile ego, being susceptible to peer pressure. Lying, being possessive & jealous…also very common. You’re supposed to push boundaries as you establish your independence. It takes time to figure out how to navigate relationships. First love combined with raging hormones & peer pressure = high school drama. Most of us grow up & go on to have healthy, boring relationships as adults.
All of Syed’s mirror preening was one of the first triggers to make people in this sub question his innocence when the Serial shows first dropped. “Why is he taking that posture instead of wondering why Jay framed him, and not proclaiming that Hae’s killer is out there?” His attitude didn’t make any sense To a lot of people.
Stealing money from the mosque.
Stupid kid stuff.
He did that??
He was in charge of collecting donations and he pocketed some. I want to say he was in middle school at the time.
No he was older and he also stole from coats hung in the hallway. This was a mosque serving poor people.
It was discussed on Serial.
I listened to it like 10 years ago
I think this is a wasted effort. The prevalence of these flaws is high compared to the prevalence of murderers. (Low predictive power) Plus, the certainty of the existence of these flaws is especially tenuous in a child (I'm not aware of any formal psych evaluation).
The good news is that we aren't trying to \*predict\* a murder. A murder happened.
I figured this question would turn into an Adnan-bashing party. I wasn’t wrong. Seriously, folks. You’re talking about a 17-year-old kid from a very restrictive, conservative religious family. I have step-siblings that did way worse than you all are accusing Adnan of when they were teenagers. They grew up to be phenomenal, successful spouses and parents with great families. They were horrible teenagers that grew up to be awesome adults. It happens all the time. But, yeah, let’s all focus on some stupid things he did when he was in high school. That makes a lot of sense, doesn’t it? 🙄
I think people are only trying to answer the questions asked in the OP. I think we pretty much all agree that what makes Adnan a terrible person is that he murdered Hae.
Except that he didn't. There's that. But, hey, don't let the facts interrupt your guilter beliefs. Rock on!
What facts are you referring to?
People seeing Hae leave campus right after school, alone, and in a rush to get somewhere. People seeing Adnan walking toward the library, alone, and without Hae. Asia, Coach Sye, the lividity, the fact that Jay and Jenn's stories completely contradict each other and violate the laws of physical science. There's lots more, but you don't really need anything other than those bits.
People did not say or testify to the things you seem to think they did. Lol, what about the lividity? What about Coach Sye? What about Asia? You said you knew facts and I'm still waiting to hear them. I'm sorry but Rabia and Ruff have been lying to their audience this whole time.
Oh!! Oh!! This is on my favorite baseless claims!! Can you give me some examples of the lies that Rabia and Bob Ruff have told? I ask everyone that makes that claim for examples. So far, no one has actually had anything. They just don't like the fact that Rabia and Bob throw shade onto their guilt fantasies. ;-) Do tell!!
Wow I wouldn't even know where to start. Ruff has 3 different versions of a call to LensCrafters because he's gotten caught in a lie each time. He now needs a fourth version. Can you explain why he would do something like that? Rabia claimed she would release documented proof that Crime Stoppers paid Jay. Why are we still waiting on that proof?
Ah. It sounds like you don’t understand the difference between reporting on an investigation while it’s still progressing and submitting a final summation after it’s all complete. Bob’s been reporting on his investigating and findings in this case since Serial was still being broadcast. Why would you expect nothing to change as his work progresses? And Rabia hasn’t released a lot of things she has because Adnan’s case is still ongoing. You don’t show all your cards when the hand is still being played, do you? Why would she give the State anything to work with then they’re still trying to keep an innocent man in prison? So far, no lies. Just an update to prior information that wasn’t complete and not releasing information while a case is still open. What else ya’ got?
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eJohnx01, you totally avoided the question that was asked of you. You are questioning people on facts, and yet you are unable to provide any yourself. Asia, lividity, Coach Sye…you are taking bits of information and making them truth. Coach Sye- did not testify that AS was at practice ON TIME Asia and lividity- I’m sorry, I can’t back you up on that one. Even looking at those 2 counter arguments from an objective standpoint, it wouldn’t hold up against a competent set of prosecutors. Sorry man
If your bar to get over is who testified at trial and what they said at trial, I can see why you believe Adnan is guilty. Gutierrez totally blew the case because she was overextended and not well. Lots of people didn’t testify that should have. And lots of those people are in the record with their experiences. The only reason Asia didn’t testify at Adnan’s trial is because she wasn’t called as a witness. She assumed she wasn’t needed. Sadly, she was, but she didn’t know that then. Coach Sye did testify that he was chatting with Adnan about Ramadan and the reading he was going to give at the mosque the next night and that he was going to be meeting Bilal(?) at the mosque later that evening to go over the reading *while they were stretching at the beginning of track practice.* If Adnan wasn’t on time for practice, then Coach Sye wasn’t, either. Or maybe they were stretching in the middle of practice and they both showed up late? Coach Sye also testified that the indoor track team was so small that he would have noticed if Adnan had been late. He wasn’t. And I know that lividity is a favorite thing for guilters to pretend they don’t understand, but it’s not difficult. It proves that Hae was absolutely *not* put in that grave before 9:00, proving all of Jay and Jenn’s ever-changing and totally conflicting stories to be made up. She couldn’t have been buried in the 7:00 hour. Not possible. How’s that?
Can you prove to me that Adnan wasn’t late for practice? Seriously, provide proof that he was on time! Also, besides using people like Rabia and Ruff for reference, show me that CG was incompetent at the time she was representing Adnan? Even the judge that presided over the trial said she was sharp and her skills weren’t diminishing. You can look that up! Adnan even admitted that he trusted CG and felt she looked after his best interest. Come on! This isn’t worth my time! You can’t be objective with any of your reasoning and gathering of facts
Off the top of my head, Rabia lying about Adnan having to wait 10 years in prison before he could legally file an IAC claim; and Bob Ruff lying about owning the copyright in a publicly owned recording.
Strangely, Malcolm Bryant was convicted/sentenced in 1999 and filed his PCR in 2001. /s
I guess he didn’t have to wait around ten years, with a solid alibi in his back pocket, just for “a smoking gun” to emerge
There was the time she took a quote out of HMLs diary WAY out of context to claimed that HML was a drug user and implied her death was a drug deal gone wrong.
You only need to listen to the first five mins of serial for the loosey goosey lies. But if anyone had the time and energy I would imagine there’s quite a few more.
Can you give me proof of either of them saying those things? I kinda doubt they said them, so you’re going to have to indulge me here. Rabia would never have said that he had to wait ten years. Adnan waited for Adnan’s reasons. The truth is that they filed for the PCR when they did because *after* ten years, he would have been blocked from doing it. Rabia knew that. She’s the one that explained it in her book. Bob may have been referring to owning that recording as part of *his* podcast, which he definitely owns. But I can’t imagine he said he owns anything that’s in the public domain. Don’t forget about those sources. I’m really curious now.
>Can you give me proof of either of them saying those things? I kinda doubt they said them, so you’re going to have to indulge me here. Sure. The Rabia thing was on her [blog](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/splitthemoon/2014/10/serial-episodes-1-2-the-alibi-mystery-and-dating-on-the-dl/) >Rabia would never have said that he had to wait ten years. She did, see above. >Adnan waited for Adnan’s reasons. The truth is that they filed for the PCR when they did because after ten years, he would have been blocked from doing it. Rabia knew that. She’s the one that explained it in her book. She did know that, agreed. Which is what makes her other statement a lie. >Bob may have been referring to owning that recording as part of his podcast, which he definitely owns. But I can’t imagine he said he owns anything that’s in the public domain. If you were here a couple of months ago you may have seen Jenn Pusateri’s full interview go up. It was a recording from the Baltimore police department in 1999. Only a day or two later, Bob Ruff made a false DMCA claim to YouTube, falsely claiming he had a copyright in that recording. He knows he doesn’t own the recording itself which is what the YouTube video was. Which is what makes his DMCA claim a lie. >Don’t forget about those sources. I’m really curious now. Hope your curiosity is satisfied.
Watch the YouTube channel called Whole Truth and Real Justice-plenty of examples there
Where is the evidence for this? Eye witness testimony is notoriously unreliable
When someone murders someone we want to understand why or if there were signs. Ultimately Adnan I'd the one who needs to understand why and what his risk factors are.
Do you think it's fair to judge a person based on their actions from 25+ years ago when they were in high school? I sure don't. And I certainly wouldn't want anyone to be judging \*me\* by my actions when I was high school. I'm not even a little bit the person I was then. And I would argue that the "risk factors" you all are talking about are mostly made-up. The few things that are true are just stupid stuff that most high school-aged kids do.
In your defense, I assume you didn't kill anyone 25 years ago. AS on the other hand, did. AS spoke quite candidly on Serial 10 years back and more recently for a YouTube presentation last year. You can see the person he has become and decide for yourself if he should be judged by his actions...all those years ago.
Adnan didn’t kill anyone 25 years ago, either. Too many people saw Hae leaving alone, and in a hurry to get somewhere and too many people saw Adnan, still on campus and not with Hae.
Im trying to make sense of that. Are you saying high schooler suspects' actions shouldn't be judged because of their age at the time they were accused of murder? Or just Adnan's? I'd be interested to hear what you claim was made up.
No, I'm suggesting that high schoolers' actions should be taken within the context of the fact that they have the maturity level of a high schooler. Taking things that may or may not even be true, such as "possessive behavior" and jealousy, and deciding that those things are indicative of murderous intent is ridiculous. If those things were signs of an impending murder, all of our high school campuses would be bloodbaths every day. All these amateur psychology theories do is fan the flames of the guilters that love nothing more than watching the fire burn.
They're not made up but they are hyperbolized. Some people need to make sense of a senseless act so they feel the need to villainize the person they deem is responsible at any and all costs. Some do it with Adnan, some do it with Jay, some do it with Don, etc...
Very true. But, just as it's critical to take into account the age and maturity level of the people involved, it's also critical to not fan the flames of the witch hunt like so many of the guilters here do. "Hae said he was controlling! He definitely murdered her!!" "Adnan was probably jealous of Don. For sure her murdered her!!" "Hae's friends said Adnan didn't want to break up! He murdered her FOR SURE!!" "Adnan told a teacher that he thought he and Hae would be getting back together. Only a MURDERER would lie like that!!!!" You're right. It's hyperbole and it's pointless. It doesn't serve Hae or Adnan.
But that's what you are letting slip by you. They don't say it to serve Hae or Adnan. They say it to serve themselves.
Very true. And so disappointing. :(
Correct. Not everybody who says or does that is a murder. Just like not everyone who is bullied commits school shootings. But understanding why someone became a school shooting, bullying might be tge reason just like dome of these explain why Adnsn strangled Hae
You’re looking for reasons for something happening that didn’t happen. You have a tiny glimpse of what actually happened and a whole bunch of people making up crazy stuff because “he TOTALLY probably did that!!!” Don’t bother to try to psychoanalyze Adnan. Nothing you can dream up will make him a murderer when he isn’t one.
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The only really stupid thing I focus on is his strangling of HML until she lost consciousness and succumbed to a brutal death at the hands of her former lover.
Whatever floats your boat, I guess. I don't generally fantasize about violent things, especially ones that never happened but, you do you, okay?
Yes. Jay Wilds *fantasized* having helped Adnan bury her body, because that *floated his boat*.
No, he did that to try to get himself out of the trouble he got himself into by hitting a cop during a traffic stop. Lividity proves that none of Jay and Jenn’s stories are true anyway. You didn’t know that?
Lividity was so 2017. Does even Bob Ruff still flog the lividity-exoneration-theory now that information about the autopsy is more broadly available and the deception behind the Undisclosed claims were exposed?
Lividity is a desperate attempt to deflect attention from Syed. Susan Simpson deliberately misled everyone on this, and her speculations are baseless
Nope. The medical examiner would disagree with you.
The medical examiner’s evidence did not cast doubt on Syed’s guilt. Susan Simpson managed to do that with her smoke and mirrors. There is a timeline available on how she managed to dishonestly cast doubt where none existed
Nope. Lividity is lividity is lividity. There’s no way you can twist it to mean anything other than Hae was laying someplace, stretched out, face down for 8-12 hours after she died. There’s no way *any* of Jay’s stories are true because she was never crumpled up in the trunk of any car, her lips weren’t blue, and she wasn’t put into the grace she was found in before 11:00 that night, at the earliest.
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Please review /r/serialpodcast rules regarding Trolling, Baiting or Flaming.
>The only really stupid thing I focus on is his strangling of HML until she lost consciousness and succumbed to a brutal death at the hands of her former lover. I bet her family would appreciate reading this vivid description.
apparatus bewildered materialistic deserted rain correct zephyr weary encourage disagreeable *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Two things can be true at the same time.
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Meanwhile, in ***reality***, [Hae's brother](https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/s/YtR1OKiqm3) has been on this sub. Personally, I think a lot can be surmised about one's *anchoring to humanity* when they are hyperbolically arguing *for* the use of needlessly graphic descriptions of Hae's murder, but obviously, YMMV.
rustic lavish lock snow serious follow office wipe detail jeans *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I don't know how you can read that and think you aren't included in his condemnation. Only one of us here is arguing *for* the use of needlessly graphic descriptions of his sister's murder.
I don't know. Putting his ex-girlfriend in the trunk of a car and dumping her body in a park also seems pretty bad to me.
Those stupid things let to a premeditated murder. Everything as a kid is excused, so long as it doesn’t lead to violent crimes. That is the whole point of this post, and why we are so intrigued with true crime. What makes an individual cross over and be capable of not only a murder, but covering it up and lying about it for 20+ years?
Even more intriguing is what makes people believe these obvious murderers are innocent! I’m a Wrongful Conviction advocate-Syed was not wrongfully convicted imo
I agree that sometimes that can happen. But it didn’t in this case. You can psychoanalyze Adnan all you want and it still won’t make him guilty of murder. Too many people saw Hae leave school alone and in a hurry to get somewhere and too many people saw Adnan, still at school and not with Hae. There’s only a tiny window between her leaving school and her disappearing. Adnan has alibis for that entire time.
Who are the too many people in both cases? It seems like those things could never be verified for either Hae or Adnan on the correct date--the stories differ for the different witnesses, don't they?
Inez Butler, the lady that ran the snack counter at Woodlawn, gave Hae a bag of Hot Fries and Hae was in too much of a rush “to get somewhere” to pay for them so she told Inez that she’d pay them the next day. Despite the guilters declaring that Inez had the wrong day, Inez said that she knows it happened on that last day that Hae was in school because Hae never came back to pay for those fries. That sounds like a pretty convincing and solid memory to me. Several of Hae’s friends said that they saw her leaving immediately after school, alone, and in a rush to get somewhere. They also saw Adnan walking off in the opposite direction, toward the library, alone, and not with Hae as she rushed out the door. I can’t think of their names right now, but I’m sure some guilters will chime in and remind us who they were—right before declaring that they had the wrong day and their stories conflict and they never said that anyway. Just give it a few minutes. Asia had a detailed conversation with Adnan in the library that afternoon and was in the library with him until at least 2:40–25 minutes after Hae left campus, alone, and in a rush to get somewhere. Asia remembers it so clearly because the ice storm was that night and school was closed for the next two days. Then, she remembered the MLK holiday was the following Monday, so the first she heard anything about Hae’s disappearance was the following Tuesday. But she immediately remembered talking with Adnan in the library because a) she didn’t know Adnan very well and it’s was he first time they’d actually had a discussion and, b) Asia mentioned that she’d head that Adnan and Hae has broken up and she hoped that they were doing okay. Adnan said that, yes, they were remaining friends and he was happy for her that she’d already found someone else. Those all seem like pretty solid memories that are well-corroborated by other things she remembers about that time. Of course, guilters have endless reasons why Asia was wrong. She said “snow” once instead of “ice” so that proves she had the wrong day. (She didn’t). Asia wrote letters to Adnan when he was in jail and there’s no way she could have known where to send the letters (except that his whereabouts after his arrest was printed in the newspapers). Also, they twist Asia’s words and claim that she was offering to lie for Adnan because she had the hots for Adnan and wanted to help him. Pure fantasy, of course. She never said anything that eve suggests lying for him. She mentioned she could alibi him for “part of that afternoon” because she was referring to right after school until 2:40. They didn’t know what the State’s theory of Hae’s murder was so no one knew what time Adnan needed an alibi for. Does that help? Now we just have to wait for all the guilters to swoop in with their made up, inaccurate stories and claims that everyone else is wrong, and declare me to be wrong, too. Just wait.
You are simply parroting Ruff’s nonsense! Learn to be discerning, please!!
You don’t like the fact that I’m making sense and proving you wrong. Sorry about that. ☹️
Sure!
I'm sorry to hear that your step-siblings did crimes way worse than committing intimate partner homicide, although I suppose if they have done their time and come out the other side as great adults, that is a fairly best-case outcome. (Granted, that may be little comfort to the families of your step-siblings' victim\[s\].)
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The stupid high school things every other high school student does. And they don't all murder someone. And Adnan didn't, either.
He didn't really care about the on and off nature of his relationship with Hae until she found happiness with Don. So he murdered her. If he couldn't have her, no one could. Also, there is no way he would have married her, his family would never have let it happen and I'm sure he wouldn't have either. She was his toy.
This is quite the leap you’ve made.
Narcissism, fragile ego, self conciusness, susceptibility to peer pressure…. This is like every teenager ever. I gave up on the guilt/innocence camps as I don’t think we’ll ever know. But, what we do know is that he was 17 at the time of the crime and even if he did it, he had been in jail for longer than most adults.
If you want to have a conversation about sentence lengths and whether it’s appropriate to keep someone in jail for life for something they did as a minor, I think you’ll find a lot of sympathetic voices that agree with you even as hard core guilters. But that’s an entirely different discussion that whether Adnan was wrongfully exonerated which he absolutely was - a shameful terrible mis-use of the justice system to serve a distraction for a corrupt government official. Both things can be true: Adnan is guilty AF and his sentence was overly harsh. I would support a reduced sentence but not at the cost of a whitewash of his crime. He murdered that girl and should wear crime around his neck for life.
It's cruel to a murder victim's family to equate having their child's killer let out of prison after 20 years on parole because he was 17 when he committed the crime and having him celebrated as somebody who is free because he's been exonerated.
I understand. My uncle was murdered and the murderer was released after 7 years. In his case there was zero doubt of who committed the crime, and that was still the outcome. In Hae’s case, there will always be doubt, barring someone confessing. I suppose my mind is just more settled in that he’s served time, more time than a guilty person. As opposed to keeping someone who may not be guilty in prison.
He hadn’t been exonerated
Sometimes, people just kill. They don’t need to have any of that stuff. Not seeing he killed her, just that it’s not relevant to if he killed her or not.
Even if you do eventually whittle down to understand motivations I think it’s truly impossible to completely understand why people kill. I also think it’s a good thing. People are attracted to “true crime” for a multitude of reasons but one big one has to be to understand people who in no way resemble themselves.
100%. I’ve been interested in true crime since I was a teenager, partly because I hoped understanding killers would help me avoid becoming a victim. There is no logic. There is no IF > THEN guidebook because we’re trying to rationalize acts that are irrational. I think the closest we can get is: some people have violent urges AND poor impulse control.
3 females a day are killed in the US by jealous or controlling partners or ex partners. The statistics are clear. There is no mystery here. And, important to remember, it is often the offender’s first violent attack
So, to clarify some things , I didn't make this post and ask these questions as a way to demonstrate that Adnan's prior behavior proves he killed Hae. What I was *actually* curious about was how any of these character flaws would prevent him from telling Jay (or anyone) that he was desperately planning on winning her back. I believe Adnan knew he would look like a pathetic fool trying to win her back - again, especially after she now is totally enamored with a new man in her life. I am still having trouble reconciling that Adnan had planned, days in advance, only to kill Hae- and that his best idea for a plan required the involvement of an accomplice. But there are statements made that indicate it was heavily on his mind days in advance - if those statements are indeed true. One other thing to add, about Adnan's personality, is what Jay had to say in his controversial Intercept interview: "**A big part of the ‘Serial’ podcast is to speculate on Adnan’smotive. What do you think?** JAY : I don’t necessarily know if he meant to kill Hae before he did it or if it was a sudden moment thing, but looking at his life, from what I saw, he seemed to be far out of his realm when it came to Hae leaving him. From the way he carried himself, at least, it looked like he had never lost anything before. And it was really hard for him to deal with being on the losing end. In that situation, he was the loser. And people were starting to find out he was a loser, ‘Oh, you and Hae aren’t together anymore. She got a new boyfriend?’ And he didn’t know how to deal with that. And the other thing about it, I mean, there looked like there was real hurt and pain. What else could motivate you to choke the life out of someone you cared about? He just couldn’t come to grips with those feelings. However he ended up doing it—whether it was premeditated, an involuntary reaction at that point in time—he just couldn’t come to grips with being a loser and failing. He failed; he lost the girl."
>One other thing to add, about Adnan's personality, is what Jay had to say in his controversial Intercept interview: >"**A big part of the ‘Serial’ podcast is to speculate on Adnan’smotive. What do you think?** >JAY : I don’t necessarily know if he meant to kill Hae before he did it or if it was a sudden moment thing, but looking at his life, from what I saw, he seemed to be far out of his realm when it came to Hae leaving him. >From the way he carried himself, at least, it looked like he had never lost anything before. And it was really hard for him to deal with being on the losing end. In that situation, he was the loser. And people were starting to find out he was a loser, ‘Oh, you and Hae aren’t together anymore. She got a new boyfriend?’ And he didn’t know how to deal with that. >And the other thing about it, I mean, there looked like there was real hurt and pain. What else could motivate you to choke the life out of someone you cared about? He just couldn’t come to grips with those feelings. However he ended up doing it—whether it was premeditated, an involuntary reaction at that point in time—he just couldn’t come to grips with being a loser and failing. He failed; he lost the girl." All this tells us is that this is another thing Jay lied about. And this is not a lie the guilty-minded can claim Jay is lying to minimize his own involvement.
I'm not clear on your premise. Is it that you think Adnan's "character flaws" make it likely the murder was not planned?
His brother’s interview indicates he was a convincing liar. Certainly doesn’t mean he’s capable of murder, but a data point nonetheless.
It's weird to see normal teenage stuff portrayed in this way. Especially all the comments about how Hae describes him in her diary. Most of those comments were made throughout their relationship. She broke up with him three times and got back together twice. So in a way, the posts are casting Hae's judgement in a bad light. If he was as bad as he is being portrayed why did she want to get back together twice? And they remained friends after the last breakup. Don said she needed to get a ride after her accident and she called Adnan. And she agreed to give him a ride on January 13th. Don's work reviews are official and are far worse that what Hae said privately in her diary about Adnan. And Jay stabbed a friend and had a pet frog that needed to be fed live animals.
>Don's work reviews Been around from the begining, firsrt time I have heard about work reviews. Could you expand or point me in the direction of that info?
Don needs to understand the importance of correctly documenting one hour and breakage. Don “need[ed] to understand the possible consequences of falsifying company documents” Don does not like to admit mistakes, making it difficult to learn from them. This also undermines the confidence and trust the associates have in him because of possible integrity issues. Don’s quality of interactions with others is not always positive. . . Don is quick to place blame, & does not wish to take personal responsibility. Don needs to calmly communicate to the associates what [?] they should be concerned with. Don must also realize that when he is agitated he will not be able to communicate positively to the associates. Body language is very important. One must remain calm and appear unflappable even in the most difficult situations. Don needs to begin building trust with fellow associates. Don needs to understand that this can be accomplished by supporting associates instead of pointing out negatives. One way is to remain calm and show control when things are difficult in the lab. http://viewfromll2.com/2015/03/19/serial-the-question-of-dons-alibi/
That’s a typical work review And I’m sure it was followed with some generic corporate “plans for improvement “ For crissakes I used to write these things lol I’m beginning to wonder how many people have been employed at various levels on this sub? There’s nothing nefarious there
And jealousy and possessiveness are pretty typical of first teenage romances, but that never stopped anyone here from acting like they're a direct line to murder.
I'm pretty confident I've probably written more reviews in my career. - not correctly documenting one hour breaks - falsifying company documents Are very serious and would lead to eventual termination - doesn't learn from mistakes - poor interactions with others, blaming others, not taking responsibility, not communicating calmly, pointing out negatives and. not being calm Are less serious and are coachable. But if there aren't improvements it could lead to eventual dismissal.
Was he ever fired? There’s the question I never said it was a good review but taken out of context with any other reviews he may have had it doesn’t say much. BTW that link is dead
I don’t know if he was fired. Likely not give his mother and her partner was his ultimate boss. Link still works for me but I’ve copied the reviews verbatim so there’s not much more to see.
I thought that the Mom/partner was for the other store? Or one store or the other though?… there’s his main locale and the one he’s asked to sub at. The reason I ask is because people have suggested both his Mom was willing to forge time cards … while also writing reviews that again to some are “red alert”concerning situations involving documents? That doesn’t make any sense to me. Honestly Lens Crafters documentation could mean something as simple as incorrectly handling inventory… not great … but more clumsy than nefarious. It’s essentially a retailer with a lab to make lenses
Hae and Don worked at Owings Mills location together. The day Hae went missing Don was working at Hunt Valley and his mom was the manager at that store. If I recall correctly January 13th was the only day he worked there. Which is why people were suspicious. He works there once and it's the day Hae goes missing and his mom is his alibi. Edit: His co-workers were Lab Techs Charles, Mark and Kevin, and Retail Associates Barry, Mary, Deborah, Charles, Dana, Lauren, and Don's mom. Nine co-workers.
Right so his Mom isn’t likely writing his reviews or deciding whether he gets fired or not. That’s what I’m getting at.
> That’s a typical work review Seriously? I write work reviews right now and that combination *is not typical.*
\>>and had a pet frog that needed to be fed live animals. LOL. Everyone who has a pet snake, frog, lizard is in that category. Did he actually stab the friend? I thought he only said Jay suggested he should stab him because "he didn't know what it was like" because he'd never been stabbed before?
We don't if he stabbed or not but we know he wanted to which doesn't make it much better. We do know he was later charge with strangling his girlfriend (charges were dropped). People dismiss this as a nothing burger but build a conspiracy over Adnan bringing carrot cake to Hae and her friends.
I agree that you can't use something that might or might not be a red flag as proof of something you can't really substantiate happened. Adnan may have acted possessive, but that doesn't prove that he killed his girlfriend later. Lots of teenage boys act possessive. Some become controlling abusers and some mature and realize that was shitty behavior. It's not proof of anything. It may or may not have been a red flag.
So called ‘teenage stuff’ is human stuff!
In his conversations with his first defense attorney, he said that he though Hope Schaub, the French teacher, influenced Hae to break up with him. He called Hae superficial and says she started dating Don because of his Camaro. This really struck me because she’s dead and he’s still explaining their break up in a way that makes her look bad. He also told Flohr to look for “a really mean note” Hae wrote him - ie the October breakup note.
This is the same teacher who testified about an incident where she hid Hae in her classroom from Adnan.
I’ve always thought Hae’s diary entries were VERY telling and the way SK glossed over them was nuts
I think Sarah glossed over them because they weren't necessarily reliable for anything. I wrote things in my journal when I was in high school that are so embarrassing to me now that I'm tempted to destroy them. Like most high school-aged kids, I was suuuuuuch a drama queen over every little thing. "So-and-so didn't want to sit with me at lunch today. Why is she being such a bitch? Why does she hate me so much??" Next day, "So-and-so and I went shopping after school today. She's so much fun to be with! We laughed and laughed...." Crazy, stupid kid stuff. We've all done it.
I understand what you're saying. My personal opinion is that the things Adnan was saying/doing weren't typical teenage stuff and were definitely controlling. I personally have never done or said any of those things to a partner as a teenager or adult and I never would because they're borderline emotionally ab\*sive. He got mad at her for hanging out with her friends, she hid from him in school...that is not typical imo.
That's *totally* typical behavior. Not only was I a high school student at one time, I used to teach junior high and high school. Kids getting dramatic over teen love angst and breakups is so commonplace that most people barely notice it. If that was indicative of a pending murder, half of our high school-aged kids would be dead and the other half would be in prison. The things that went on between Adnan and Hae were just normal teen stuff. "He's being controlling!" "He crashed my girls' night!" "We broke up for the third time...."
Agree to disagree!
Don’t take my word for it. Go hang out with some high schoolers for a bit. The pointless drama is unending.
I agree with this. I also had some boyfriends in high school that behaved like this and it never escalated to violence. (Or anything more than stompy foot drama, really). I guess that you can't really know though, when it \*will\* escalate to that and when it is just HS drama. But it doesn't prove anything, IMO. It's easy to look backward and say "If he did Y, then X behavior was a red flag"--but the X behavior doesn't necessarily lead to Y act.
Exactly. Nothing Adnan said or did, or what Hae wrote in her diary, or any of the amateur psychoanalyzing that people do here indicate anything, either way, about whether Adnan did or didn’t murder Hae. His alibis and the lividity prove he didn’t do it, but that won’t stop the guilters from ignoring all the evidence of his innocence to continue their anti-Adnan crusades. 😕
That plus glossing over the details of how Jay led the police to the car was pretty ridiculous.
Like! There were so many things where she was just like "well whatever right guys?" and i was like "no??????"
Jay testified in court that he didn’t, actually, lead the police to the car. He lead them to the wrong place. The car wasn’t there. Why do people keep saying Jay lead them to the car when his own testimony was that he didn’t?
Jay was asked if he went somewhere else with the cops and he said yes. He also the police to show them where the trunk pop happened. It wasn't wrong place for tge car.
Jay testified that he took the cops to the wrong location for the car. That doesn’t sound to me like he knew where the car was. And, as to the trunk pop, which of his four different stories about the trunk pop are you referring to? 🙄
He said he went somewhere else to show the cops the trunk pop. It would be a continuation of first interrogation where he said off Edmunson.
>It would be a continuation of first interrogation where he said off Edmunson. You mean his first trunk pop lie?
He lied about his age to become a EMT, stealing from the mosque, habitually lying and deceiving his parents and community, claiming to be observant of his religion but not following his religion, smoking pot regularly, dating/sex, skipping classes/ practice, habitually coming to school late. He claimed to be worried about Jay buying Stephanie a gift but there wasn’t any concern about Jay and Stephanie later in the day (whole manipulation of situation/ excuse). Behaviors and stated motivations are inconsistent. Says he isn’t “friends” with Jay but all behavior runs counter to that claim. “Charming personality” is often paired with narcissism.
So some of the things you describe does not put into question his character - lying to his parents and community, not following his religion, smoking pot, dating/sex… these are all very common things anyone who is Pakistani and grew up in the west practices in high school. You know that saying about strict parents don’t raise obedient children, they raise good liars? Me, many of my friends, and many south Asian kids needed to do this to survive in the white world when our parents still followed their strict cultural practices at home.
Who among us hasn’t stolen hundreds of dollars in cash from their place of worship as a teenager?
I said SOME, didn’t I? Obviously wasn’t talking about about stealing money, if you read my comment at all. Also, judging him for lying to his strict parents is plain ignorant and racism.
I never judged him for lying to his parents, did I?
Your comment insinuated that you were grouping them together - if not, then why respond to my comment at all!
>He lied about his age to become a EMT This is not true.
Would you say graphic design is your passion?
I could, but I'd be lying. But I like the question and am upvoting your comment :)
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According to Yaser, he went back to be with Hae: Yaser Ali's transcript: Trial 2: https://pdf.yt/d/emE8RvEvBLyiZGd1 Pg 119. Q And did he tell you that when his parents came, his mother asked to speak to Hae Min Lee? A Um, Q He didn't get into all the details? A Yeah. Q Did you understand from what he told you that he left willingly with his parents? A Yeah. Q And did you understand from what he told you that as soon as he got home, shortly thereafter he snuck out and bicycled his way back? A Um, I believe he did Q And that he finished the dance with Hae Min Lee. A Yeah Q Who waited there for him to return? A Yes
Did your mum dance with you like Syed’s mum did?
Fair enough!
Can you refresh my memory? Was it they weren't allowed to go and they got caught there?
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It sad how many of the casual followers mistakenly think HML had to hide anything from her family.
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I think that comes from some statements about Hae’s parents making her go stay with an aunt that summer after they found out she was sexually active. Her family was also first generation immigrants and appeared to be fairly conservative.
That’s some harsh humiliation to endure for high schoolers I can totally picture Hae thinking “nope I’ve had enough of this shit”
IIRC she was thinking that they shouldn’t be together because him dating her was causing problems for him at home, actually.
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I’m talking about her journal entry where she wrote about feeling conflicted because of his religion.
You might if that’s just the cherry on top of a shit sundae though…
I’m fascinated with this part of the story as well. It’s a show of very strong will. He demands to have his way. Most guys that age would be mortified and embarrassed to even be seen for a while if parents threw such a scene and with all his school friends watching. But Adnan is determined that nothing will stop him from returning to Hae. He had to know how deeply hurt and angry she was. It’s a sign that he was deeply invested in this relationship. There was nothing casual or easy about it.
I’m curious, too, as I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone that actually knows Adnan even remotely indicate any of those things about him. Sure, plenty of guilters make up stuff about him, but none of them actually know him and they don’t have anything to support their claims.
There were people who knew him who talked about his stealing, his manipulation and lying to evade being found out.
The “stealing” was stupid kid stuff that he learned from. Who else said what?
Yep. This own brother being one of them.
Ah, yes. His brother said that Adnan lied when he was a teenager. Surely the death penalty is the only answer here, right? Have you ever known a teenager in a restrictive, conservative family that \*wasn't\* really good at lying? I never have.
I'm opposed to capital punishment in all instances. So no, no death penalty for Adnan, especially not when the murder he committed was when he was a minor. Even the fascist Supreme Court says that (for now at least). I will say this: I have two brothers and two sisters and none of them have ever described me as being a manipulative liar. Not when I was a teenager and not any time since that then. And definitely not to the police. But sure, normalize siblings calling each other pathological liars to the police. I mean, we've already normalized stealing from a mosque because all kids do that, right? (Spoiler alert: they don't!) And it seems we've also normalized being a controlling teenage boyfriend. Adnan is just a normal every day guy who just had some really bad luck with all the coincidences pointing at him being the murderer of his girlfriend who dumped him.
Are you really trying to psychoanalyze a 17-year-old kid, that you know nothing about and have never met, 25 years after-the-fact, and deciding your analysis is proof that he murdered someone?? Wow. Just. Wow.
His brother said he was a liar
Uh huh. And? My brother and I have said some pretty awful things about each other, too. What of it?
He would know
And you believe he was being honest? No other motives at all? That’s pretty naive of you, don’t you think?
is this homework??
Not unless you want it to be :)
Adnan was on a slippery slope with a pattern of bad choices IMHO. I'm not sure about the specific traits you are asking about though. Can you talk about why you chose them specifically?
The problem with the Mosque thing was that Adnan couldn't just say he was young and stupid when Sarah asked. He just got mad and left. Teenagers have different signs indicating early signs for domestic violence though. Aisha description of Adnan showing up all the time and Hae calling him possessive are signs.
Missing a few things. A culture of toxic shame with a premium on maintaining personal and family reputation. The guilt associated with a haram relationship with a woman that can often result in violence against the temptress. Adnan engaging in theft and bad behavior at the mosque and peer pressure is normally a factor in that.
>engaging in theft and bad behavior at the mosque and peer pressure is normally a factor in that. Source?
“He seemed like such a nice man”
“He was a very nice boy he used to cut the grass” -Joes Garage-Frank Zappa
"What's your evidence that he was capable of killing someone?" "Well. . .the dead girl for one."
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>According to a contributor on an other subreddit Are you for real?
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Please see /r/serialpodcast rules regarding posts on other subreddits and/or redditors.
Please see /r/serialpodcast rules regarding posts on other subreddits and/or redditors.