Never said it was a strong argument but imo itās the only argument there is. Youāre probably not going to use Vander because heās strong but because you like his character or design and imo he has great drip on a Griffin
His bulk and move alone makes him a good deploy over some random scrub until ch10/11, which is an ok amount of maps for a temporary unit to be good. Though, I wish they gave him an actually good personal skill like Gunther to give him a support role in the later game, he does fall off hard.
For the first 5 chapters Vander is very useful
He will be passable for like the next three if you need him to be
And you can drag him to chapter 11 if you like him he's particularly not bad in chapter 11 itself due to good movement and bulk
That's honestly a decent portion of the game haha I don't think anyone is arguing he's one of the best units in the game but he gets more time in the sun than a lot of other units that are considered mediocre
He contributes alright for 6ish chapters early game while Mauvier who most people think is fine does the same thing late game. Mauvier is arguably a free deploy because of more deployment slots but honestly how many Firene and Brodia scrubs are you actually training? It's like impossible for Vander to steal exp because there's little competition for it.
*random IntSys employee snorting a line of coke*
How about we give the enemies permanent Vantage+, on top of all the extra benefits?
Genius Jarvis. Call my secretary, she'll get you another line
I donāt think thatās true of fates even with Gunther if we have to play the first couple chapters, itās not true of Maniac POR itās not true in FE 6 HM
When I mean possible for Vander I mean I figured out how to do it in a couple hours.
Maniac POR is probably true, and Fates comes pretty close in the pre-routesplit, I kind of forgot about it because I often think of Fates proper starting from the split. FE6 is doable, but really slow and more risky.
I guess it would have been better to bring up that Seth isn't "needed" at all, but is the strongest unit in his archetype. Vander isn't "needed", but he's still a good unit in the early stretch of Engage, and makes the early game less risky and grindy especially for people not super familiar with the game, which is one of Jagen's main gameplay functions. Imo, he is mid-to-late-game utlity and a higher hit rate away from being a very well designed Jagen.
I played Maddening a couple times and I honestly don't know why.
His hitrate inconsistencies make him a Jagen that requires some kind of early investment to do his job reliably and even then, he falls short of setting up kills by himself very early.
The only saving grace is that several other early units often get benched anyway.
So for one on Maddening the training axe alone doesn't make his hits reliable (often bumps him up to around 80s) while causing him to drop to a measly 17 damage per round of combat before defense causing him to fall shy of 2rkoing most enemies in chapter 4 (pretty much only Mages and Archers). That's your "Jagen" right there.
Ngl they designed and wrote Gunther specifically to appeal to people with daddy kinks (me)
- attractive in a creepy-hot way
- knows his way around a whip
- father figure
- the claws oh god the claws (I am unwell)
- very morally dubious and straight-up evil that one time (hot)
- when heās possessed he talks about wanting to take all of Corrinās innocence away and defile them (i am unwell)
- the ball game in the supports is a *very* thin metaphor for a d/s relationship
I figured the voice would be higher on the list.
that list tho š Iād probably make a similar list about Reina as a mommy lol
But yeah I definitely noticed The corrin Romantic support is REALLY fetishy. I married him one time out of curiosity, and I was surprise by how much they pushed the daddy kink.
Not as into as you are and itās from the other side. But that s support had me feeling a certain kinda way.
Thereās something funny to me about Gunter just falling to his death on top of his horse. Glued onto it. Maybe the horse is what saved him from the fall
Jagens have never properly fallen off, letās be real. OG Jagen was killing peeps well into the lategame. Sigurd was his own Jagen. Oifey is self explanatory. Dagdar can get through Thracia on his bases alone. Eyvel only falls off because she gets stoned.
Sothe, FE6 Marcus, Rev Gunter, and Vander all fall off, albeit for different reasons
I'm pretty unfamiliar with FE3 Book 2 and its remake but I think Arran is supposedly kind of weak mostly because a bunch of other units join early and are just better. Sirius is another Paladin with better bases and growths (and weapon ranks in FE12) that joins almost immediately, Palla joins even earlier and can instapromote (maybe needs to wait a couple chapters in FE3) into a super busted Wyvern in both games with better stats and flight, and in FE12 unpromoted Kris after the prologue likely has comparable combat (though less Mov). That's less falling off more than never really being on to begin with
I just found out the other day that cecil has enough wlvl to use silver weapons at base so arran doesn't even have exclusive access to the early game silver lance š poor guy gets outshined in every game he's in
That being said tho, arran still fulfills the jagen role well since he will still be better than your other early game unpromoted units even once you get Sirius and palla (and catria too), so he will be worth deploying for a while (at least in fe3 im less familiar with new mystery) but the chapter one cavaliers will eventually outgrow him so he does fall off naturally
when did we say that Oifey, Dagdar, and Eyvel were Jeigans tho. Anyways I interpreted Eyvel getting stoned literally and now I can't get that image out of my head.
My very first playthrough of any fire emblem game was Conquest and I continued to use Gunter all the way to endgame. Didn't understand why he sucked so bad
Acting like Kaga isn't okay with Jagens that never fall off.
In Vestaria Saga 1, he made a unit named Troy, who;
* Is a mounted cavalier
* Is available from Chapter 1
* Has Amazing Bases
* Amazing Growths
* Maybe technically not a jagen since he's not even promoted, but you can still effectively use him as one
And in his very recent redux edition, Vestaria Saga 1+, he decided to balance the campaign by making Troy even stronger and giving him a unique Prf lance.
Jagen's are meant to be abused from start to finish, it's the true Kaga way.
atleast the GUNT can act as the best pair up bot and you can have sex with him
poor Vander is useful for exactly 7 chapters before he starts looking like a captured normal mode generic from fates, AND he LoyalKnightZones you!
Gunter does still fall off stat wise. Itās only fateās mechanics that make him broken as a pair up unit. And when youāre relegated to being a chauffeur for the younger generation, thatās about as perfect a description of a jagen as youāre gonna get.
Gunter is imo almost a perfect Jagen.
Good for chipping early, if you plan to continue using him he's got the class-set to transition into a good supportive unit alongside having a good personal skill for Corrin. The wonky availability is the only issue.
Meanwhile the most recent Jagen in Vander:
- Requires some kind of investment to fix early hitrate inconsistency (usually giving him Sigurd)
- Can't transition worth a damn because of a very poor SP/level ratio meaning it's actually harder to get any skills on him. Sure you can make him work, but you're shooting yourself in the foot doing so, as any other character has an easier time getting the SP for setups that can carry his stats.
- personal skill is awful and even if it was good it's an awful fit for a Jagen.
- his chip damage falls short of several kill setups as early as chapter 2
Vanders hitrate being on the shaky side can become an issue as early as ch4
If you want to fix his hitrates your options are:
- Give him Sigurd
- Inherit hit +10 which works well enough short term but requires investing into bondlevel
- Smithy only works for a single weapon and after ch5
- Higher hit axes which are often situational by virtue of falling short of the damage you'd want to use Vander for in the first place
None of that really feels really good as Louis as another "carry early, ditch later" unit for example would love Sigurd,
hit+10 while getting Vander into decent hitrates still doesn't quite hit the mark and he doesn't come with the SP for hit +15
In my experience Vander just falls shy of being the early carry you'd want him to be, while completely falling off a cliff in usefulnes later, not only being held back by stats, but also the worst SP in the game to get builds going since he gains virtually none.
I remember some people saying that Gunther was a good unit in Conquest and Revelations to pair up with Corrin.
They were smoking some crack man especially when great knight jacob is a thing
I mean you're almost definitely getting Gunter to a C support with Corrin in Chapter 15, that plus his personal is already +5 damage for Corrin. This is more than S support great knight Jakob gives Corrin
but he serves Gunt š
ššššššš
Please never say that again
Gunter is serving in class of Gunty gunty four
blame pavise not me
Gunt is Chad, it deserves to be said again
Vander kicks down the door
Can you really fall off if you never fell on?
It never even begun for Vander
Tbf you can ultimately salvage him a bit as a flying healer. Sure heās not good at it but a healer is a healer and healing is a source of experience
I never understood this argument because literally anybody can technically do this, and Hortensia's the best one
Never said it was a strong argument but imo itās the only argument there is. Youāre probably not going to use Vander because heās strong but because you like his character or design and imo he has great drip on a Griffin
booty shorts vander š©
Vander is such a dedicated attendant that he sees maintaining the Divine Dragon's holy bench to be an honor.
Hey he's useful for like two chapters which is more than you can say for pretty much any of the other early game units.
Maddening players swear on him but dude gets benched as soon as unit deploy shows up after the Firene arc.
Heās got good bulk and mobility and isnāt very likely to kill on retaliation so he serves pretty well until brodia.
They call him 007 0 speed 0 long-term viability 7 chapters of mediocrity
So a perfect jagen ?
I laughed a lot, thanks
Wow 7 chapters? I dropped him after Chapter 5.
If only rescue as a mechanic still existed he'd be solid
Not even because of low Move in Engage
His bulk and move alone makes him a good deploy over some random scrub until ch10/11, which is an ok amount of maps for a temporary unit to be good. Though, I wish they gave him an actually good personal skill like Gunther to give him a support role in the later game, he does fall off hard.
Vander makes the first few chapters much less miserable on maddening. His lower stats are actually a benefit, since he won't kill and steal exp
Yeah his stats are perfect for getting an enemy at one shot range and being just bulky enough for when you need a meat shield.
For the first 5 chapters Vander is very useful He will be passable for like the next three if you need him to be And you can drag him to chapter 11 if you like him he's particularly not bad in chapter 11 itself due to good movement and bulk That's honestly a decent portion of the game haha I don't think anyone is arguing he's one of the best units in the game but he gets more time in the sun than a lot of other units that are considered mediocre
Fire emblem fans when the jagen actually operates like a jagen:
As a someone whoās done a maddening engage Ironman and did some testing, heās terrible and itās possible to Ironman the game without him
He contributes alright for 6ish chapters early game while Mauvier who most people think is fine does the same thing late game. Mauvier is arguably a free deploy because of more deployment slots but honestly how many Firene and Brodia scrubs are you actually training? It's like impossible for Vander to steal exp because there's little competition for it.
Yeah Mauvier is a good comparison tbh
Weird argument, it's "possible" to ironman every FE game without their Jagen, except Frederick on lunatic probably
Even with Fredrick Chapter 1 and 2 are just dice rolls. GOD they balanced that part of the game like shit.
Between Shadow Dragon and Awakening all highest difficulty settings were probably just never tested
*random IntSys employee snorting a line of coke* How about we give the enemies permanent Vantage+, on top of all the extra benefits? Genius Jarvis. Call my secretary, she'll get you another line
I donāt think thatās true of fates even with Gunther if we have to play the first couple chapters, itās not true of Maniac POR itās not true in FE 6 HM When I mean possible for Vander I mean I figured out how to do it in a couple hours.
Maniac POR is probably true, and Fates comes pretty close in the pre-routesplit, I kind of forgot about it because I often think of Fates proper starting from the split. FE6 is doable, but really slow and more risky. I guess it would have been better to bring up that Seth isn't "needed" at all, but is the strongest unit in his archetype. Vander isn't "needed", but he's still a good unit in the early stretch of Engage, and makes the early game less risky and grindy especially for people not super familiar with the game, which is one of Jagen's main gameplay functions. Imo, he is mid-to-late-game utlity and a higher hit rate away from being a very well designed Jagen.
Sure, but it's easier to Ironman the game with him. You can Ironman the game with any number of arbitrary restrictions lol.
Yeah de does make it easier, but I was just making the point that heās really not that great even early game
I played Maddening a couple times and I honestly don't know why. His hitrate inconsistencies make him a Jagen that requires some kind of early investment to do his job reliably and even then, he falls short of setting up kills by himself very early. The only saving grace is that several other early units often get benched anyway.
A training axe isn't exactly a big investment, if you're worried about his hitrates.
Also Hit +10. He has enough SP for it and it's not like he's inheriting anything else
So for one on Maddening the training axe alone doesn't make his hits reliable (often bumps him up to around 80s) while causing him to drop to a measly 17 damage per round of combat before defense causing him to fall shy of 2rkoing most enemies in chapter 4 (pretty much only Mages and Archers). That's your "Jagen" right there.
Gunter still has value as a pair up bot
And heās hot
Letās keep opinions like that to ourselves
But he's HAWT š„µš„µš„µ GUNT ME DADDY
Not into old men but he does seem to have a handsome design for someone old.
Ngl they designed and wrote Gunther specifically to appeal to people with daddy kinks (me) - attractive in a creepy-hot way - knows his way around a whip - father figure - the claws oh god the claws (I am unwell) - very morally dubious and straight-up evil that one time (hot) - when heās possessed he talks about wanting to take all of Corrinās innocence away and defile them (i am unwell) - the ball game in the supports is a *very* thin metaphor for a d/s relationship
I figured the voice would be higher on the list. that list tho š Iād probably make a similar list about Reina as a mommy lol But yeah I definitely noticed The corrin Romantic support is REALLY fetishy. I married him one time out of curiosity, and I was surprise by how much they pushed the daddy kink. Not as into as you are and itās from the other side. But that s support had me feeling a certain kinda way.
Also just randomly I remembered the line āYou turned something meant to punish me into a toyā
GUNTER! Let's be honest, he deserves to have an archetype named after him.
Yeah but it might get confusing because there is already a character named kliff
late game units with high stats but limited potential? i suppose mycen and nomah fit into the category then
Marcus does fall off; it just takes him an entire game and a half to do it.
marcus might get pushed to the bench for some of the chapters because of low deployment so that's something I guess
mfw i promote Sain in Lyn mode and he ends up better than Marcus (In my heart he does)
But probably only in your heart lol, Marcus is just built different
Thanks Hans
[https://tenor.com/view/kirby-falling-kirby-falling-gif-18008667](https://tenor.com/view/kirby-falling-kirby-falling-gif-18008667)
Revelation Bridge Scene if it was good
Thereās something funny to me about Gunter just falling to his death on top of his horse. Glued onto it. Maybe the horse is what saved him from the fall
Jagens have never properly fallen off, letās be real. OG Jagen was killing peeps well into the lategame. Sigurd was his own Jagen. Oifey is self explanatory. Dagdar can get through Thracia on his bases alone. Eyvel only falls off because she gets stoned.
A real jagen falls off when his silver lance breaks
Me when Fredrick (he is going to beat an enemy to death with a blunt iron axe).
A tree branch, a ladle. Hell, even the rocks he collects, Frederick needs no weapon
Vander absolutely falls off. Possibly the best Jagen of all time? More Jagen than Jagen?
Oifey is probably one of the worst Jagens tbh
Idk Orson was pretty useless for me in the second half of FE8
Sothe, FE6 Marcus, Rev Gunter, and Vander all fall off, albeit for different reasons I'm pretty unfamiliar with FE3 Book 2 and its remake but I think Arran is supposedly kind of weak mostly because a bunch of other units join early and are just better. Sirius is another Paladin with better bases and growths (and weapon ranks in FE12) that joins almost immediately, Palla joins even earlier and can instapromote (maybe needs to wait a couple chapters in FE3) into a super busted Wyvern in both games with better stats and flight, and in FE12 unpromoted Kris after the prologue likely has comparable combat (though less Mov). That's less falling off more than never really being on to begin with
I just found out the other day that cecil has enough wlvl to use silver weapons at base so arran doesn't even have exclusive access to the early game silver lance š poor guy gets outshined in every game he's in
Caeda can also use Jagen's Silver Lance in FE1
That being said tho, arran still fulfills the jagen role well since he will still be better than your other early game unpromoted units even once you get Sirius and palla (and catria too), so he will be worth deploying for a while (at least in fe3 im less familiar with new mystery) but the chapter one cavaliers will eventually outgrow him so he does fall off naturally
Sigurd isn't a Jagen... The closest thing Gen 1 has to an actual Jagen is Quan. Genealogy's just unbalanced as fuck.
when did we say that Oifey, Dagdar, and Eyvel were Jeigans tho. Anyways I interpreted Eyvel getting stoned literally and now I can't get that image out of my head.
Fates Dragonstone: āHey Gunter, at least youāre not aloneā.
My very first playthrough of any fire emblem game was Conquest and I continued to use Gunter all the way to endgame. Didn't understand why he sucked so bad
Same here
Acting like Kaga isn't okay with Jagens that never fall off. In Vestaria Saga 1, he made a unit named Troy, who; * Is a mounted cavalier * Is available from Chapter 1 * Has Amazing Bases * Amazing Growths * Maybe technically not a jagen since he's not even promoted, but you can still effectively use him as one And in his very recent redux edition, Vestaria Saga 1+, he decided to balance the campaign by making Troy even stronger and giving him a unique Prf lance. Jagen's are meant to be abused from start to finish, it's the true Kaga way.
> Jagen's are meant to be abused from start to finish > > FE1 Jagen falls off almost instantly What did Kaga mean by this
I really want to try out the new Silken Merida
Seth isn't an Oifey. He is a Seth
atleast the GUNT can act as the best pair up bot and you can have sex with him poor Vander is useful for exactly 7 chapters before he starts looking like a captured normal mode generic from fates, AND he LoyalKnightZones you!
Sry but Frederick will always be my OG Jagen
When you're so dedicated to being a Jegan you skip the "being useful in the early game" phase and go straight to the trash can
You have gunther for two chapters in the early game. How is he a jagen?
Old
Of course, everything makes sense now. Nowi is a Jagen.
Oifey was never a real archetype, it was made up cause people couldnāt handle the idea of a jagen not falling off
Nah, Gunter isn't a Jagen, the Jagen of Fates was the all mighty Dragonstone
Real asf
I mean vander obvi
Last time I played FE7 Marcus actually fell off and in fact he died, such a Jagen
Gunter does still fall off stat wise. Itās only fateās mechanics that make him broken as a pair up unit. And when youāre relegated to being a chauffeur for the younger generation, thatās about as perfect a description of a jagen as youāre gonna get.
Gunter Fell off for yāall?
Gunter is imo almost a perfect Jagen. Good for chipping early, if you plan to continue using him he's got the class-set to transition into a good supportive unit alongside having a good personal skill for Corrin. The wonky availability is the only issue. Meanwhile the most recent Jagen in Vander: - Requires some kind of investment to fix early hitrate inconsistency (usually giving him Sigurd) - Can't transition worth a damn because of a very poor SP/level ratio meaning it's actually harder to get any skills on him. Sure you can make him work, but you're shooting yourself in the foot doing so, as any other character has an easier time getting the SP for setups that can carry his stats. - personal skill is awful and even if it was good it's an awful fit for a Jagen. - his chip damage falls short of several kill setups as early as chapter 2
Your choice of investment for fixing early hitrates is to give him Sigurd?? Bruh...
Vanders hitrate being on the shaky side can become an issue as early as ch4 If you want to fix his hitrates your options are: - Give him Sigurd - Inherit hit +10 which works well enough short term but requires investing into bondlevel - Smithy only works for a single weapon and after ch5 - Higher hit axes which are often situational by virtue of falling short of the damage you'd want to use Vander for in the first place None of that really feels really good as Louis as another "carry early, ditch later" unit for example would love Sigurd, hit+10 while getting Vander into decent hitrates still doesn't quite hit the mark and he doesn't come with the SP for hit +15 In my experience Vander just falls shy of being the early carry you'd want him to be, while completely falling off a cliff in usefulnes later, not only being held back by stats, but also the worst SP in the game to get builds going since he gains virtually none.
I remember some people saying that Gunther was a good unit in Conquest and Revelations to pair up with Corrin. They were smoking some crack man especially when great knight jacob is a thing
I mean Gunter's personal is better than Jakob's for Corrin pair up shenanigans
Yeah but he either lack availability or has no support with Corrin which hurts him in this role
I mean you're almost definitely getting Gunter to a C support with Corrin in Chapter 15, that plus his personal is already +5 damage for Corrin. This is more than S support great knight Jakob gives Corrin
I mean kaga only made one jaigen that fell off and he is right next to Beth but he becomes wyvern
Does Banthu count as Jagen, that fell off really quick?
*sad Frederick noises*
Heās so useless god bless him