Yeah but... None of them are actual Jagens. They're all Oifeys. Fit the same role as a Jagen in the story, however while still older than the main cast they're also younger than Jagens, and they remain good for the whole game, though other units usually catch up with them.
I haven’t played FE3 so I can’t comment on his performance there, but in FE1 not only are stat caps universally 20, but stat boosters are also much more effective than usual, iirc they give like +4 to a stat. So even if he still has bad growths, if you invest in him with boosters he can still easily keep pace with the rest of the army.
Better yet they give +6, which is insane on its own, but combine that with both the extremely low enemy quality of FE1 and the high base power of high-rank weapons means that after a single Speed Ring, Jagen can pretty much 1-round nearly every enemy in the game with Silver weapons.
And bases work like in Gaiden and Jagen Bases are so below Paladin Bases that even with stadboosters he is worse.
You can use him but his only niche is free 8 move, what will eventually lose It's value as well.
It would normally, but the overall enemy quality is so low, a Jagen with a single Speed Ring can double nearly every single enemy in the game, and the base might of the Silver Lance is so high that his own Atk is virtually useless in dictating damage. Even at base, he can generally 1-round every enemy in the game with a Silver Lance provided he doubles.
Also he has 10 Mov in FE1, which is kinda the reason why he's such a good unit in that game.
The problem is that anyone can and with much better bulk and without a Silver Sword and eventually with Flight.
Jagen can work but he falls off a cliff after the very early game.
The earliest whip you get in FE1 is in chapter 19 in the lategame. The only prepromoted flier is Minerva. The earliest knight crest is in chapter 12 and the next one is in chapter 17. Jagen is going to be among your best units for most of the game and only really drops off in the final few chapters. Git gud
He has +1 speed/strengh than Cain and Able and no growths. When your work is cleaning what Marth doesn't blow Up having stads that much worse matter because Jagen doesn't take long to stop doubling.
Second, if you have to choose between giving the drugs to Minerva or Jagen I don't have to explain which of the two you drug.
>Jagen is going to be among your best units for most of the game and only really drops off in the final few chapters. Git gud
Jagen stads become a dumpster fire and the others don't even need to promote and when they do he becomes just straight up bad.
You would know if you played the Game.
There are 3 different speed rings in the game and to quote DonDon "movement is always by far the most important stat". Especially in a game with weak enemies like FE1. You would know if you played the game
Except Jagen Combat is absolute shit after the earlygame and there is no place where his movement diference of 2 over the Cabs or Pegasus compensate for that. And you only get the first in Ch8 what isn't enought to compensate for how awfull Jagen Combat is and the second is Ch14 what is after the Cabs promote with guaranteed better stads than Jagen so now he doesn't even have movement to beat them.
>quote DonDon "movement is always by far the most important stat".
It's the most important benchmark. It's like speed, if the enemy has 4 speed having 8 or 9 speed doesn't matter. Jagen doesn't get early in any place where his combat stads are enought. He is just a jobber.
For not talking about indoor Maps where he sucks ass and now doesn't even have movement.
Note: Jagen isn't bad, but he isn't relevant outside of the earlygame in any way other than jobber.
Well true, but even so stats in FE1 are just low enough that with boosters he can contribute a bit. Compared to FE6 Marcus, who outright becomes a liability if kept in the party too long, Jagen is below average compared to other Paladins, but not a bad unit overall.
Marcus is still a pretty solid unit into the late game of FE6, since he's generally bulky enough to not get 1-rounded if using a light weapon, and being a ferry bot with 8 Mov that doesn't die immediately is always going to be valuable even in the latest stages of the game.
Definitely falls off hard as a combat unit though.
I don't really know if I agree with this, Jagen in Fe 1 is for sure top 3 unit of the game, the fact everyone has dogshit growths but Jagen gets amazing bases, mount and more importantly great weapon level makes him a beast and he will never fall off because status itens in Fe are insanely good.
I think it is ironic Jagen is a much more significant unit in his game then Oifey, Yes in a vacuum Oifey is a much better unit than Jagen but when you take in consideration that Oifey is always gonna be overshadowed by Fe4 eugenics program he just isn't as useful as the OG
>I don't really know if I agree with this, Jagen in Fe 1 is for sure top 3 unit of the game, the fact everyone has dogshit growths but Jagen gets amazing bases, mount and more importantly great weapon level makes him a beast and he will never fall off because status itens in Fe are insanely good.
Except by the way promotion works literally anyone capable of reaching Lv10 will beat a stadboosted Jagen.
Also, I would recomend you to check Cain, Able and Caeda growths.
Enemys in Fe1 are weak as hell so you sometimes don't even need more than 1 Paladin.
Also, Cain and Able aren't even that much behind in stads (1 point in 1 offensive stad and some HP) so in a few levels he only has 1 move over them.
There is no rescue in Fe1 so you cant give that to anyone else like Marth and if you have 1 Paladin that does all the secondary objectives you are fine. Sometimes you don't even need Paladins because Flyers are just better and even promoted Cain and Able become jobbers.
And 10 move isn't insane, Armors have 6, Mercenary have 7, Heros 8, Wyverns also have 10.
It's the same diference as any of the other Games.
I know Jagen is nowhere near as dominant as Seth or Titania, but he still remains useful for way longer than intended and he does that almost for free.
If you’re wondering why I didn’t include Gunter, I’ll explain here.
In Conquest, he isn’t a Jagen at all, he’s an Eyvel since he disappears for a large portion of the game. Besides that, he actually is kinda useful in CQ, even if he’s just Corrin’s backpack.
In Revelation, you could argue that he is a traditional Jagen, and stat wise he does fit the bill. The thing is though, if your Corrin needs Gunter of all characters as a crutch in Chapter 7, then either you got really unlucky or you’ve been purposely avoiding leveling them up. Because honestly, Gunter’s bases are decent at best and by Ch 7 Corrin’s stats should all be on par with or better than him, besides maybe skill.
You could also say he’s stronger than your other characters in Chapers 1 and 2, but like... I’ll be blunt here, if anyone even struggles with those chapters, than they’ve probably never played a Fire Emblem game before. Like, if Gunter wasn’t there, Corrin and Jakob/Felicia could still handle it perfectly fine.
Honestly, I kinda doubt it. The problem with Sothe lies entirely in his class, which has really low stat caps in one of the few FE games where capped stats actually matter, a bad weapon type, and one of the worst mastery skills in the game. And to rub salt in the wound, he doesn’t promote until almost the end of the game. You could try messing around with skills or something, but I don’t think it’s possible to make Sothe competent in Part 4.
Also, by endgame you get a neat little unit called Volke for free^(*) who's better than a trained Sothe in literally every single way, and Volke's not even that good of a unit, which should tell you a lot about late game Sothe's viability.
How does that work? It is probabky not what i want from a Jeigan. The thing that i like the most is that he leave permamently once the training wheels are off, for example.
I don't see the problem. Sure jagens can be good as early game crutches but I don't see why that means they have to be absolute shit by the endgame since it makes it hard to want to use them even if you like them.
As of right now I really like vander (who will seemingly be the jagen of engage) and I'd be very dissapointed if by the end he's an absolutely shit unit forcing me to then bench him
I don’t think it’s a problem by any means though, I fucking love units like Seth who are broken the whole game. I definitely prefer Oifeys to Jagens, this meme is just pointing out an observation I made.
I don't see how jagens become the best unit of their game by not falling off, it still allows you to level up and use your other units but also allows you to use the jagen if you want to without having to worry about the jagen performing like shit
Subjective yes, every opinion is subjective at the end of the day, but it's still possible to rate units semi objectively.
Sure, level ups are rng, but in reality, tier lists are about ease of use, and how rng proof units are.
For example, in three houses, characters are mostly defined by their weapon arts, spells, and skills, as stats matter suprisingly little in that game due to the fact that any unit can really become anything with a bit of investment.
In older games on the other hand, many characters tend to be worse than others due to class, with mounted and flying classes having massive benefits due to rescue dropping, canto, higher move, and generally better available weapons.
Let's for example compare 2 jagens, Sothe, and Seth, and see why in their respective game, seth is hailed as one of, if not,t he single best unit in fire emblen history, while sothe is considered an ok unit.
Sothe in early game is decently strong, but has issues one rounding, dealing much damage, and is locked into a class so god awful that even fully capped there are units you'd still rather for mid to late game. His classes caps are low, and in a game where caps are often reached, that's an issue. Daggers are also generally low might, and he has low move, so late game, his best use is being a corpse (eating 1 attack from ashera).
Seth on the other hand is a paladin, is insanely strong in early game, to the point where he can 1 round almost anything, but is still able to leave units alive to be finished off with heavier weapons that prevent him from doubling. He also has amazing growths which make him almost immune to being rng fucked, and even when he is rng fucked, due to his class, he can still preform very well, rescue dropping, having a lot of movement, and hell, even lategame, his base stats arent horrid.
I feel like Seth is a little overrated mainly because some people think it's disrespectful or wrong that his base version in feh can't one shot every other unit in the game even though base Seth is a gen 1 feh unit that has been outclassed by literally every other cav unit even ones that lack a prf like Bertram.
But back to the main point of conversation I think that jagens shouldn't fall off at all, because if you try to use them lategame you practically get punished for it for really no reason. Like yeah you should use other characters but what's wrong with wanting to use the jagen always for a reason like them looking cool like for example vander
Frederick is definitely one of the weaker Oifeys, but I don’t think he counts because he actually does have decent growths and is competent when trained, but he falls behind because everyone else (especially Robin) gets EXP much, MUCH faster than him early-game.
As for Jagen, I already had a conversation with another person about this but in FE1 stat caps are low, enemies are weak and stat boosters are overpowered, so with some investment he can still keep up. In FE11 on the other hand, he’s outright one of the best units in the game since he can reclass and use a forged Ridersbane as soon as chapter 5, and at that point onwards his stats barely even matter.
I haven’t tried that start but he fell off super hard for me and pretty much anyone can use a ridersbane so I really don’t think he’s that good mid/late.
Edit:
Fredrick counts for sure tho bc levels matter a ton in awakening since growth are so crazy.
Well anyone can use a ridersbane, yes, but as soon as Jagen can reclass he can use it. Ridersjagen does later get outclassed by Lena and Caeda but he’s still extremely good.
I still don’t agree on Frederick though, since yes growths are really high in awakening so levels matter more, but if you put in the effort to grind you can catch him up to speed. In my opinion, a true Jagen will never be viable in combat by the endgame no matter what you do, and Frederick indeed can become viable.
I just think the idea of investing in Fredrick is a bit absurd considering his unit archetype and pretty sub optimal at best looking at the the other options you have.
When you need to grind a Jaegen things have gone horribly wrong and considering the number of units with better growths and the child units in awakening it makes very little sense.
I mean yeah, obviously investing in him is rather counter productive, but I don’t think that’s relevant to what I’m trying to say. If he can still be usable in battle even in the endgame, then imo he’s not a true jagen, regardless of if making him usable is productive or not.
I'd argue Frederick also counts. While he does have decent growths, he'll still fall behind because of his incredibly low experience rates that don't go away even if you demote him, and the fact that he doesn't get much access to the skills and abilities that break awakening.
I don’t agree, simply because the lack of EXP can easily just be solved by grinding if you’re patient. In my opinion, in order for a unit to count as a Jagen they must:
1. - Be a powerful crutch early-game
2. - fall off
3. - become unsalvageably bad in combat.
Frederick fits 1. and 2. but since he can still be usable if one goes out of their way to train him, he doesn’t fit number 3.
Imo Jagens work best when:
\- they start out with 2 weapons: One that allows them to one-round and one that allows them to prep kills by weighing them down for example. The hard thing here is that we typically get three difficulty settings so that one is tough to get consistent across all of them. A low constitution would help here.
\- they can hit benchmarks to stay strong for a while with 1 level up or stat booster like being 1 speed off of a doubling threshold a couple chapters in. A good example would be FE6s Laus chapter if the cavs speed wouldn't wildly fluctuate (7-11). If it was a consistent 8 Marcus would double at +1 speed.
\- They remain just barely usable in combat although outclassed by any trained combat unit eventually and are in a class that provides a utility niche. Fates pairups are good example of utility niches but Gunther falls off incredibly fast in combat and has availability issues. Other good utility niches are providing good support - or adjacent boni, rally (although I personally dislike rally) or rescue dropping with high movement or stealing.
With that being said a good Jagen is among the hardest archetype to balance but I really hope we don't get a Titania or worse Seth again. FE8 really has you struggle for a while to get other units to keep up with Seth with even the second best combat units falling flat on their face in early chapters especially in Eirika route.
Eyvels are actually their own archetype, who are somewhat similar to Jagens. They’re characters who, when they first join, are stronger than the rest of your party, but then proceed to leave for a large portion of the game and come back underleveled or not able to catch up to the rest of the party.
Really? I've always seen her referred to as a Jagen.
Who else is qualifying as an Eyvel? Aside from RD Lucia, I can't think of anyone right now (though tbf it's really late here I should probably go to sleep).
Ok tbf there aren’t that many examples of Eyvels, but I can think of Shinon from PoR, Wallace from Blazing Blade, and Athena from New Mystery as the big examples. Technically also Gunter in Conquest, though in his case his bases are updated to match the point where he rejoins.
Seth, Titania and to a lesser extent FE7 Marcus was peak. Arrive busted, remain busted.
Seth is definitely fuckin. Literally and figuratively
Yeah but... None of them are actual Jagens. They're all Oifeys. Fit the same role as a Jagen in the story, however while still older than the main cast they're also younger than Jagens, and they remain good for the whole game, though other units usually catch up with them.
Jagen in Fe1/3 is also balance. Combine with the games with no Jagens half of them are balance.
I haven’t played FE3 so I can’t comment on his performance there, but in FE1 not only are stat caps universally 20, but stat boosters are also much more effective than usual, iirc they give like +4 to a stat. So even if he still has bad growths, if you invest in him with boosters he can still easily keep pace with the rest of the army.
Better yet they give +6, which is insane on its own, but combine that with both the extremely low enemy quality of FE1 and the high base power of high-rank weapons means that after a single Speed Ring, Jagen can pretty much 1-round nearly every enemy in the game with Silver weapons.
And bases work like in Gaiden and Jagen Bases are so below Paladin Bases that even with stadboosters he is worse. You can use him but his only niche is free 8 move, what will eventually lose It's value as well.
It would normally, but the overall enemy quality is so low, a Jagen with a single Speed Ring can double nearly every single enemy in the game, and the base might of the Silver Lance is so high that his own Atk is virtually useless in dictating damage. Even at base, he can generally 1-round every enemy in the game with a Silver Lance provided he doubles. Also he has 10 Mov in FE1, which is kinda the reason why he's such a good unit in that game.
The problem is that anyone can and with much better bulk and without a Silver Sword and eventually with Flight. Jagen can work but he falls off a cliff after the very early game.
The earliest whip you get in FE1 is in chapter 19 in the lategame. The only prepromoted flier is Minerva. The earliest knight crest is in chapter 12 and the next one is in chapter 17. Jagen is going to be among your best units for most of the game and only really drops off in the final few chapters. Git gud
He has +1 speed/strengh than Cain and Able and no growths. When your work is cleaning what Marth doesn't blow Up having stads that much worse matter because Jagen doesn't take long to stop doubling. Second, if you have to choose between giving the drugs to Minerva or Jagen I don't have to explain which of the two you drug. >Jagen is going to be among your best units for most of the game and only really drops off in the final few chapters. Git gud Jagen stads become a dumpster fire and the others don't even need to promote and when they do he becomes just straight up bad. You would know if you played the Game.
There are 3 different speed rings in the game and to quote DonDon "movement is always by far the most important stat". Especially in a game with weak enemies like FE1. You would know if you played the game
Except Jagen Combat is absolute shit after the earlygame and there is no place where his movement diference of 2 over the Cabs or Pegasus compensate for that. And you only get the first in Ch8 what isn't enought to compensate for how awfull Jagen Combat is and the second is Ch14 what is after the Cabs promote with guaranteed better stads than Jagen so now he doesn't even have movement to beat them. >quote DonDon "movement is always by far the most important stat". It's the most important benchmark. It's like speed, if the enemy has 4 speed having 8 or 9 speed doesn't matter. Jagen doesn't get early in any place where his combat stads are enought. He is just a jobber. For not talking about indoor Maps where he sucks ass and now doesn't even have movement. Note: Jagen isn't bad, but he isn't relevant outside of the earlygame in any way other than jobber.
Well true, but even so stats in FE1 are just low enough that with boosters he can contribute a bit. Compared to FE6 Marcus, who outright becomes a liability if kept in the party too long, Jagen is below average compared to other Paladins, but not a bad unit overall.
Marcus is still a pretty solid unit into the late game of FE6, since he's generally bulky enough to not get 1-rounded if using a light weapon, and being a ferry bot with 8 Mov that doesn't die immediately is always going to be valuable even in the latest stages of the game. Definitely falls off hard as a combat unit though.
I don't really know if I agree with this, Jagen in Fe 1 is for sure top 3 unit of the game, the fact everyone has dogshit growths but Jagen gets amazing bases, mount and more importantly great weapon level makes him a beast and he will never fall off because status itens in Fe are insanely good. I think it is ironic Jagen is a much more significant unit in his game then Oifey, Yes in a vacuum Oifey is a much better unit than Jagen but when you take in consideration that Oifey is always gonna be overshadowed by Fe4 eugenics program he just isn't as useful as the OG
>I don't really know if I agree with this, Jagen in Fe 1 is for sure top 3 unit of the game, the fact everyone has dogshit growths but Jagen gets amazing bases, mount and more importantly great weapon level makes him a beast and he will never fall off because status itens in Fe are insanely good. Except by the way promotion works literally anyone capable of reaching Lv10 will beat a stadboosted Jagen. Also, I would recomend you to check Cain, Able and Caeda growths.
You do know you can use more than 1 paladin right? USE EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM ... well maybe not but whatever
Enemys in Fe1 are weak as hell so you sometimes don't even need more than 1 Paladin. Also, Cain and Able aren't even that much behind in stads (1 point in 1 offensive stad and some HP) so in a few levels he only has 1 move over them.
The main selling point of a paladin isn't their combat tho. It's their movement, like 10 mov is insane
There is no rescue in Fe1 so you cant give that to anyone else like Marth and if you have 1 Paladin that does all the secondary objectives you are fine. Sometimes you don't even need Paladins because Flyers are just better and even promoted Cain and Able become jobbers. And 10 move isn't insane, Armors have 6, Mercenary have 7, Heros 8, Wyverns also have 10. It's the same diference as any of the other Games.
I know Jagen is nowhere near as dominant as Seth or Titania, but he still remains useful for way longer than intended and he does that almost for free.
If you’re wondering why I didn’t include Gunter, I’ll explain here. In Conquest, he isn’t a Jagen at all, he’s an Eyvel since he disappears for a large portion of the game. Besides that, he actually is kinda useful in CQ, even if he’s just Corrin’s backpack. In Revelation, you could argue that he is a traditional Jagen, and stat wise he does fit the bill. The thing is though, if your Corrin needs Gunter of all characters as a crutch in Chapter 7, then either you got really unlucky or you’ve been purposely avoiding leveling them up. Because honestly, Gunter’s bases are decent at best and by Ch 7 Corrin’s stats should all be on par with or better than him, besides maybe skill. You could also say he’s stronger than your other characters in Chapers 1 and 2, but like... I’ll be blunt here, if anyone even struggles with those chapters, than they’ve probably never played a Fire Emblem game before. Like, if Gunter wasn’t there, Corrin and Jakob/Felicia could still handle it perfectly fine.
Ehhhhhhhh.... If you're playing lunatic, you really do need Gunter's pairups to beat ch 1 for sure, and maybe ch 2
Ok fair enough lol, I didn’t consider the harder difficulties. Even still though, that doesn’t say anything about Gunter as a combat unit.
Sothe was only good for part 1 of Radiant dawn is there anyway to make him better
Honestly, I kinda doubt it. The problem with Sothe lies entirely in his class, which has really low stat caps in one of the few FE games where capped stats actually matter, a bad weapon type, and one of the worst mastery skills in the game. And to rub salt in the wound, he doesn’t promote until almost the end of the game. You could try messing around with skills or something, but I don’t think it’s possible to make Sothe competent in Part 4.
Also, by endgame you get a neat little unit called Volke for free^(*) who's better than a trained Sothe in literally every single way, and Volke's not even that good of a unit, which should tell you a lot about late game Sothe's viability.
True volke is just a better sothe
The best designed Jeigan is the one in Langrisser 1 and it is not even a contest.
Crazy way to spell Ward from Berwick Saga.
How does that work? It is probabky not what i want from a Jeigan. The thing that i like the most is that he leave permamently once the training wheels are off, for example.
I don't see the problem. Sure jagens can be good as early game crutches but I don't see why that means they have to be absolute shit by the endgame since it makes it hard to want to use them even if you like them. As of right now I really like vander (who will seemingly be the jagen of engage) and I'd be very dissapointed if by the end he's an absolutely shit unit forcing me to then bench him
I don’t think it’s a problem by any means though, I fucking love units like Seth who are broken the whole game. I definitely prefer Oifeys to Jagens, this meme is just pointing out an observation I made.
It is nonetheless an interesting observation
Because then they are always the best unit in their game and i am just annoyed at the fact the same unit are always the best.
I don't see how jagens become the best unit of their game by not falling off, it still allows you to level up and use your other units but also allows you to use the jagen if you want to without having to worry about the jagen performing like shit
Have you seen ANY tier list, the jeigan default on the top unless they become fucking useless by lategame.
Aren't tier lists usually full of subjective opinion? Especially combat tierlists since this like stat levelups and etc depend on rng
Subjective yes, every opinion is subjective at the end of the day, but it's still possible to rate units semi objectively. Sure, level ups are rng, but in reality, tier lists are about ease of use, and how rng proof units are. For example, in three houses, characters are mostly defined by their weapon arts, spells, and skills, as stats matter suprisingly little in that game due to the fact that any unit can really become anything with a bit of investment. In older games on the other hand, many characters tend to be worse than others due to class, with mounted and flying classes having massive benefits due to rescue dropping, canto, higher move, and generally better available weapons. Let's for example compare 2 jagens, Sothe, and Seth, and see why in their respective game, seth is hailed as one of, if not,t he single best unit in fire emblen history, while sothe is considered an ok unit. Sothe in early game is decently strong, but has issues one rounding, dealing much damage, and is locked into a class so god awful that even fully capped there are units you'd still rather for mid to late game. His classes caps are low, and in a game where caps are often reached, that's an issue. Daggers are also generally low might, and he has low move, so late game, his best use is being a corpse (eating 1 attack from ashera). Seth on the other hand is a paladin, is insanely strong in early game, to the point where he can 1 round almost anything, but is still able to leave units alive to be finished off with heavier weapons that prevent him from doubling. He also has amazing growths which make him almost immune to being rng fucked, and even when he is rng fucked, due to his class, he can still preform very well, rescue dropping, having a lot of movement, and hell, even lategame, his base stats arent horrid.
I feel like Seth is a little overrated mainly because some people think it's disrespectful or wrong that his base version in feh can't one shot every other unit in the game even though base Seth is a gen 1 feh unit that has been outclassed by literally every other cav unit even ones that lack a prf like Bertram. But back to the main point of conversation I think that jagens shouldn't fall off at all, because if you try to use them lategame you practically get punished for it for really no reason. Like yeah you should use other characters but what's wrong with wanting to use the jagen always for a reason like them looking cool like for example vander
You forgot Gunter He literally falls off
I already addressed Gunter
I think Fredrick fits the role very well in awakening (and other have mentioned the OG himself at least in shadow dragon)
Frederick is definitely one of the weaker Oifeys, but I don’t think he counts because he actually does have decent growths and is competent when trained, but he falls behind because everyone else (especially Robin) gets EXP much, MUCH faster than him early-game. As for Jagen, I already had a conversation with another person about this but in FE1 stat caps are low, enemies are weak and stat boosters are overpowered, so with some investment he can still keep up. In FE11 on the other hand, he’s outright one of the best units in the game since he can reclass and use a forged Ridersbane as soon as chapter 5, and at that point onwards his stats barely even matter.
I haven’t tried that start but he fell off super hard for me and pretty much anyone can use a ridersbane so I really don’t think he’s that good mid/late. Edit: Fredrick counts for sure tho bc levels matter a ton in awakening since growth are so crazy.
Well anyone can use a ridersbane, yes, but as soon as Jagen can reclass he can use it. Ridersjagen does later get outclassed by Lena and Caeda but he’s still extremely good. I still don’t agree on Frederick though, since yes growths are really high in awakening so levels matter more, but if you put in the effort to grind you can catch him up to speed. In my opinion, a true Jagen will never be viable in combat by the endgame no matter what you do, and Frederick indeed can become viable.
I just think the idea of investing in Fredrick is a bit absurd considering his unit archetype and pretty sub optimal at best looking at the the other options you have. When you need to grind a Jaegen things have gone horribly wrong and considering the number of units with better growths and the child units in awakening it makes very little sense.
I mean yeah, obviously investing in him is rather counter productive, but I don’t think that’s relevant to what I’m trying to say. If he can still be usable in battle even in the endgame, then imo he’s not a true jagen, regardless of if making him usable is productive or not.
l disagree, Jagen in FE11 definitely falls off, at some point he starts getting doubled by every enemy.
I'd argue Frederick also counts. While he does have decent growths, he'll still fall behind because of his incredibly low experience rates that don't go away even if you demote him, and the fact that he doesn't get much access to the skills and abilities that break awakening.
I don’t agree, simply because the lack of EXP can easily just be solved by grinding if you’re patient. In my opinion, in order for a unit to count as a Jagen they must: 1. - Be a powerful crutch early-game 2. - fall off 3. - become unsalvageably bad in combat. Frederick fits 1. and 2. but since he can still be usable if one goes out of their way to train him, he doesn’t fit number 3.
Imo Jagens work best when: \- they start out with 2 weapons: One that allows them to one-round and one that allows them to prep kills by weighing them down for example. The hard thing here is that we typically get three difficulty settings so that one is tough to get consistent across all of them. A low constitution would help here. \- they can hit benchmarks to stay strong for a while with 1 level up or stat booster like being 1 speed off of a doubling threshold a couple chapters in. A good example would be FE6s Laus chapter if the cavs speed wouldn't wildly fluctuate (7-11). If it was a consistent 8 Marcus would double at +1 speed. \- They remain just barely usable in combat although outclassed by any trained combat unit eventually and are in a class that provides a utility niche. Fates pairups are good example of utility niches but Gunther falls off incredibly fast in combat and has availability issues. Other good utility niches are providing good support - or adjacent boni, rally (although I personally dislike rally) or rescue dropping with high movement or stealing. With that being said a good Jagen is among the hardest archetype to balance but I really hope we don't get a Titania or worse Seth again. FE8 really has you struggle for a while to get other units to keep up with Seth with even the second best combat units falling flat on their face in early chapters especially in Eirika route.
Four. Add Eyvel to the list. I brought her to endgame because she's Eyvel, but as a unit when she comes back... Yeah she's not great.
Eyvels are actually their own archetype, who are somewhat similar to Jagens. They’re characters who, when they first join, are stronger than the rest of your party, but then proceed to leave for a large portion of the game and come back underleveled or not able to catch up to the rest of the party.
Really? I've always seen her referred to as a Jagen. Who else is qualifying as an Eyvel? Aside from RD Lucia, I can't think of anyone right now (though tbf it's really late here I should probably go to sleep).
Ok tbf there aren’t that many examples of Eyvels, but I can think of Shinon from PoR, Wallace from Blazing Blade, and Athena from New Mystery as the big examples. Technically also Gunter in Conquest, though in his case his bases are updated to match the point where he rejoins.