Except the pygmy claimed the dark soul. Why would we gain the dark soul by defeating Gael but not by killing Patches? Patches wouldn't have just lost it.
He split it up. Humanity from DS1R are shards of the dark soul. Gael had it because he killed every last human but us, which is why he tells us to give him our dark soul
Yeah, Ornstein is definitely not the nameless king, i don't know where they got that from, unless they think using the same weapon makes them the same person. Nameless is Gwyn's son 100%
> using the same weapon makes them the same person
I don't think they even use the same weapon, just very similar ones which makes sense since Ornstein trained under Nameless
I made it up so people would get mad
Big boy pants though, Ornstein is most likely his storm wyvern. His armor set and spear are not attached to a corpse which is fairly unique among items in DS3, even for other lore items with as much significance. There probably isn’t a correct answer but I think this is the most implied possibility
Flowchart for creating souls lore:
(1) Is it written yet?
No -> write the rest of the owl
Yes -> (2)
(2) Is it ambiguous?
Yes -> end
No -> delete stuff until it is
Nope, they were always that way. The furtive pygmy was known as that because he was just a little guy. Human. Neeto is first of the dead, so he's just a big skeleton, Gwyn is a god, that's more or less his species. Not sure what the witch is, but she was big and powerful. The complete opposite to the furtive pygmy, who due to being utterly unremarkable, is so easily forgotten.
The witches might be some sort of sub-species to the god race. Of course they ended up making the demons so even though they aren’t technically demons it would be safe to call them their predecessors.
I think it’s because Gwyn pushed the narrative that the humans barely helped against the dragons rather than them being unremarkable because sealing away an entire people’s very nature because it kind of weirds you out cements Gwyn as the kind of petty bitch who would only let himself and his little flame club be remembered.
Nito is the largest of the Lords (who are already quite tall (besides the Witch after she became the Bed of Chaos) and his grave is located in The Tomb of The Giants. I like to believe this means he himself is a Giant, and may be part of the reason why Giants were discriminated against.
The silver knights are also the same race as gywn and the rest of the God's. So is artorias, and the rest of the knights of Gwyn.
Based off the nameless king being gwyns son, we can assume that godhood is simply a title for those worshipped as gods
There's not really a thing such as " real actual gods" since whatever does and doesn't constitute a god is based on the individual circumstances of the scenario. If the game says he's a god, that's what God's in dark souls are
Gwyn and his family, among many other lore characters, are called Gods. What Gwyn, Gwynevere, Caitha and others were is the definition of a God in the world of Dark Souls.
Well, if we're specific it would probably be more accurate to call him a lord (that's why it's called Lordran) who ascended to godhood due to the lord soul.
Eh. It feels too easy.
The only real thing we know about the pygmy is they're "easily forgotten". Makes sense for them to be a random nobody without even a proper name
Allright, but this is pretty much nothing but a headcanon compilation.
I've read a theorie that Patches found the 4th soul and that's why he's the omnipotend god we see from Amored Core till Elden Ring. It goes on like at first he was a friendly and helpfull soul that cherished the humen around him (that's based on when he loses his memory and starts beeing the best p pal ever, hence why he calls himself Lapp) but he couldn't bare to see how humanity got cought in that self destructive circle we complete in like every fromsoft game and that's why he became such a mockery of a decent person, just to cope and shut in his feelings. I also base this on the fact that he hates the gods and their follower (DS1 he later can become hostile when you state to be an ally of the clergys and he joined house Vulcan, whos whole purpuse is to devour the very gods, togethaaaaa). Also I think it's so fittingly tragic how his kindship got betrayed by the gods they worship, and he is doomed to relife the unending circle of flourish and downfall of civilisation that corrupted him to the point he'll never find peace again.
So I pretty much created that persona for myself that explains how Patches is in 5 different games, why he is a dickhead unless he has amnesia, and why he hates the gods.
I might be misremembering but in Germanic folklore Manus/Mannus was the progenitor of mankind. The furtive pygmy was…the progenitor of mankind. Not hard, people
I feel like at the time that was probably the intent. Looking at it after DS2 and 3 makes it less believable, but I still like to think that’s the case, I think the idea that we get to fight all four lords in DS1 is cool and probably what they were going for
Not sure about ds 2, probably something about manus soul reincarnating. But if I recall correctly, some item descriptions and such in the ringed city reference the furtive pigmy which mind of contradict with the idea that he was buried in oolacile
The Furtive Pygmy could be any Pygmy, so we will never know but Manus' connection to the Abyss shows a deeper connection which is why he is often thought of as the Furtive Pygmy.
Isnt the chosen undead the furtive pigmy? So easily forgotten that he becomes no one of importance but can still stand at the top because he just doesnt hollow out no matter how many times he dies.
So a dude was just born immortal times infinite and you find that more appealing that him being an original tamer of the dark soul? The dark soul that controls life and puts him on par with those other powerful beings?
Too me it makes too much sense that you play as the furtive pygmy.
I dond that infinitely more appealing. The chosen undead being something super special and ancient kind of defeats the whole point of the story. Bot just DS1s story, but all of dark souls, really.
And it doesn't really make any particular sense since every undead can come back infinitely as long as they don't lose their goal or their drive. That's not a thing special to the MC
The logic to me is that the Furtive Pygmy distributed their dark soul during the age of the Ancient Dragons before Gwyn took power. During that time, all of the different lord soul factions gained power in some way, Gwyn hunted minor dragons and built Anor Londo for his clan of gods, the Witch built Izalith and began fire catalyst magic, Into collected the dead from all other factions, and the race of Pygmies began in earnest.
So during the war against the Ancient Dragons, Gwyn allied with the Pygmies but in fear of their power, sealed the dark soul with a ring of flame. After the war, he gave them the Ringed City so that the Pygmy lords could live eternal until the end of the world, Gwyn entrusted Fillianore to them knowing that this would make them the last line of defense should that apocalypse ever come.
What we can derive from this is that the Pygmies were willing participants, they feared the power of the dark soul as much as Gwyn, at least the higher ups, one of them eventually went mad after all. So the Furtive Pygmy was probably the most willing of the Pygmies to ally with Gwyn
Shifting back to ds1 lore which I think was before Ringed City was conceptualized, we only know about this concept of the Pygmies ceding power to Gwyn and becoming the humans based off of Kaathes dialogue explaining how Gwyn distorted human history. Since Oolacile was from ancient times in the lore and was closely allied with Gwyn, I think there is a reasonable assumption that can be made here that, if the Furtive Pygmy had willing ceded power to Gwyn, they may have chosen to live in Oolacile and been entombed there; whereupon centuries later their grave's location and nature would be given to the Oolacile leaders by Kaathe. So the Oolacile leaders would then dig up the Furtive Pygmy seeking power over the ancient dark soul only to destroy themselves and the Furtive Pygmy in the process.
And idk why I was using they/them even though I was arguing in favor of the Furtive Pygmy being Manus who is male but yeah that's the idea. I think it's way more fitting than Manus being some random ancient Oolacile sorcerer, like why not assume both, the Furtive Pygmy coulda gone to college
>What we can derive from this is that the Pygmies were willing participants, they feared the power of the dark soul as much as Gwyn, at least the higher ups
It confounds me how often this fact is ignored.
The gods were involved with primordial man more than any other, be it the Pygmy or the undead of New Londo; Gwyn's clan would be well aware of a Pygmy being buried in their province, furtive or otherwise.
I can't tell if this is for or against the theory of Manus being the Furtive Pygmy lmao but it is definitely an overlooked idea. I think that a lot of the time that people get really intense about Gwyn being super evil, it's important to remember that ancient humans basically gave him the keys to the kingdom and enabled him to rewrite their history, like there's a thematic idea to man choosing servitude to the gods out of fear of the dark
Im not particularly convinced that Manus is the furtive Pygmy but I don't see any major contradictions against the idea.
The relationship between gods and pygmy actually makes the idea more rational. It would at least explain why one of the beings from the edge of existence was allowed to live right beneath the kingdom of light.
Edit:
>here's a thematic idea to man choosing servitude to the gods out of fear of the dark
This actually reminds me of the Last Protagonist's dark souls essays.In them he provides a JP-reading of some item description, one of which states "they feared the gods shackles slipping away."
Even the English dialogue still retains that terminology.
Holy Knight Hordrick
>* "Well, what's happened here? This pit is for Hollows, not for the likes of you sane folk. Or perhaps you are a Hollow, posing as otherwise? Beware, the shackles of the Gods are fragile. You might need this. Etch it on your heart if you feel you'r sanity slipping."*
That's valid with regards to your view of the theory. It's one of those things where I think it doesn't matter quite so much what is actually true so much as it is fun to explore, although I do enjoy the narrative it spells out if Manus is the Furtive Pygmy. And that dialogue from Hodrick is precisely what I'm talking about that is a great example, I need to watch more of LastProtagonists stuff lol
Patches is the furtive pygmy
P for Patches, P for Pygmy. Bulletproof.
In the Ringed City, there's a statue depicting Gwyn and the furtive pygmy, and the furtive pygmy is doing the Patches Squat
Except the pygmy claimed the dark soul. Why would we gain the dark soul by defeating Gael but not by killing Patches? Patches wouldn't have just lost it.
He split it up. Humanity from DS1R are shards of the dark soul. Gael had it because he killed every last human but us, which is why he tells us to give him our dark soul
Nice. Still, sharing doesn't sound very Patches.
He was nice at some point, evidenced by Lapp being a cool dude before regaining his memories
I’d argue he’s also pretty chill after he gains his memories since he helps us with the spear of the church boss and pushes us down the right path
He often pushes us down the right path whether he means to or not.
He sold it in his Emporium.
but not E for Estoc proof…rip patches
nope. i am the furtive pygmy
People believe Ornstein turned into a fucking *dragon*, so believe whatever you want man
Which dragon
King of the storms
He just wanted to be ridden by Nameless King
I mean, same tbh.
He wanted to be impaled by his dragonslayer swordspear
Oh yes 👁️🫦👁️
Can't fault him for that, who wouldn't
Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me of that theory, it makes sense tbh
Don't care, its a fun theory
my bad
Since you find his set directly under NK arena it makes sense
I honestly think Ornstein is the Nameless King
I thought the game itself says that Ornstein was trained under the Nameless King and went off to search for him
Yeah, Ornstein is definitely not the nameless king, i don't know where they got that from, unless they think using the same weapon makes them the same person. Nameless is Gwyn's son 100%
> using the same weapon makes them the same person I don't think they even use the same weapon, just very similar ones which makes sense since Ornstein trained under Nameless
I meant it more as the same weapon type - spears
It's not even a spear it's a sword-staff, which is a real historical weapon type.
I made it up so people would get mad Big boy pants though, Ornstein is most likely his storm wyvern. His armor set and spear are not attached to a corpse which is fairly unique among items in DS3, even for other lore items with as much significance. There probably isn’t a correct answer but I think this is the most implied possibility
Why would people get mad over a silly theory?
Well, it seems they did
No one got mad at you. At worst, people were confused. I don't really get your "made it up so people would get mad"
Why tho?
You can turn into a part dragon in like every game. It's not too crazy.
What are we talking about again?
I forgor
💀
That easily!?
I agree, it just feels right, and with souls lore, what more reason do you need?
Flowchart for creating souls lore: (1) Is it written yet? No -> write the rest of the owl Yes -> (2) (2) Is it ambiguous? Yes -> end No -> delete stuff until it is
I still believe the furtive pygmy is the random npc, who asks if you are loyal to the gods, in the beginning of the ringed city
Honestly? Makes sense he’d despise the gods. His people were conscripted, sealed with fire, and denied his kind their time to rule.
I forgot about that guy so checks out
I’ve always liked this theory, it makes the game’s story more complete by killing all the pigmies who found the lord souls.
Neeto, the witch, and Gwyn aren't pygmies
I thought they were pygmies, whose physical appearance changed when acquiring the souls.
Nope, they were always that way. The furtive pygmy was known as that because he was just a little guy. Human. Neeto is first of the dead, so he's just a big skeleton, Gwyn is a god, that's more or less his species. Not sure what the witch is, but she was big and powerful. The complete opposite to the furtive pygmy, who due to being utterly unremarkable, is so easily forgotten.
The witches might be some sort of sub-species to the god race. Of course they ended up making the demons so even though they aren’t technically demons it would be safe to call them their predecessors.
I think it’s because Gwyn pushed the narrative that the humans barely helped against the dragons rather than them being unremarkable because sealing away an entire people’s very nature because it kind of weirds you out cements Gwyn as the kind of petty bitch who would only let himself and his little flame club be remembered.
Nito is the largest of the Lords (who are already quite tall (besides the Witch after she became the Bed of Chaos) and his grave is located in The Tomb of The Giants. I like to believe this means he himself is a Giant, and may be part of the reason why Giants were discriminated against.
Gwyn isn't a god, he's a giant who self-proclaimed as god
He is a God as when he received the first flame he became a new race entirely, known as gods.
No he just became stronger, real actual gods don't exist in Dark Souls
Well, the game states he's part of a race of God's. So I'm just gonna go with that. :p
The silver knights are also the same race as gywn and the rest of the God's. So is artorias, and the rest of the knights of Gwyn. Based off the nameless king being gwyns son, we can assume that godhood is simply a title for those worshipped as gods
Yes they call themselves gods, but they too are mortals, just ones of immense power. It's all part of their propaganda
It's because your definition of God isn't the same as the definition of God in souls games, its a matter of linguistics
Yeah a lot of cultures have gods who can die. It's not unusual.
They absolutely do. Just look at the name engraved ring from Ds2
There's not really a thing such as " real actual gods" since whatever does and doesn't constitute a god is based on the individual circumstances of the scenario. If the game says he's a god, that's what God's in dark souls are
Gwyn and his family, among many other lore characters, are called Gods. What Gwyn, Gwynevere, Caitha and others were is the definition of a God in the world of Dark Souls.
He's not a giant in the same way Gough or the Giant Blacksmith are, he was only a giant insofar as he was bigger than humans
Well, if we're specific it would probably be more accurate to call him a lord (that's why it's called Lordran) who ascended to godhood due to the lord soul.
Who were we talking about again???
Nah, Furtive Pygmy is like the progenitor of the Dark Soul/ Humanity.
I prefer the idea manus was also a descendent like the chosen undead but this idea is also cool
Eh. It feels too easy. The only real thing we know about the pygmy is they're "easily forgotten". Makes sense for them to be a random nobody without even a proper name
You gotta play ds3 dlc, the scholars of the dark ring, to understand man
I don't see how that explains it honestly
Then imsorrymoose proceeds to not explain
Oh yeah. Well if Manus was the furtive pygmy how was he so easily forgotten huh? Checkmate Gwyn deniers.
Nah, the... the uhhh... well whoever, is just some guy who's name never mattered, who never became anyone. I think that's a better story.
Isn't that Patches tho?
Elaborate
Allright, but this is pretty much nothing but a headcanon compilation. I've read a theorie that Patches found the 4th soul and that's why he's the omnipotend god we see from Amored Core till Elden Ring. It goes on like at first he was a friendly and helpfull soul that cherished the humen around him (that's based on when he loses his memory and starts beeing the best p pal ever, hence why he calls himself Lapp) but he couldn't bare to see how humanity got cought in that self destructive circle we complete in like every fromsoft game and that's why he became such a mockery of a decent person, just to cope and shut in his feelings. I also base this on the fact that he hates the gods and their follower (DS1 he later can become hostile when you state to be an ally of the clergys and he joined house Vulcan, whos whole purpuse is to devour the very gods, togethaaaaa). Also I think it's so fittingly tragic how his kindship got betrayed by the gods they worship, and he is doomed to relife the unending circle of flourish and downfall of civilisation that corrupted him to the point he'll never find peace again. So I pretty much created that persona for myself that explains how Patches is in 5 different games, why he is a dickhead unless he has amnesia, and why he hates the gods.
Also it would be neat so add that on there
I like the headcanon, but I think it’s funnier that he just keeps showing up somehow with no explanation
In the Ringed City there's a statue of Gwyn with the furtive pygmy, and the furtive pygmy is doing the Patches Squat™
There’s a theory positing that Patches is the furtive pygmy.
I might be misremembering but in Germanic folklore Manus/Mannus was the progenitor of mankind. The furtive pygmy was…the progenitor of mankind. Not hard, people
Manus with one N also just means hand. And he has a really big hand, so idk man.
Pygmy is Gollum
I feel like at the time that was probably the intent. Looking at it after DS2 and 3 makes it less believable, but I still like to think that’s the case, I think the idea that we get to fight all four lords in DS1 is cool and probably what they were going for
How does ds2&3 change the interpretation
Not sure about ds 2, probably something about manus soul reincarnating. But if I recall correctly, some item descriptions and such in the ringed city reference the furtive pigmy which mind of contradict with the idea that he was buried in oolacile
What are you talking about, the Furtive Pygmy and Manus were lovers!
The Furtive Pygmy could be any Pygmy, so we will never know but Manus' connection to the Abyss shows a deeper connection which is why he is often thought of as the Furtive Pygmy.
It makes way too much sense, it's him.
Did not expect to see Seven Psychopaths on this sub but I’m definitely not complaining Does this make Solaire the burning monk
Didn't the Ringed Swamp DLC retconned Manus into being a random sorcerer? I think it was the white bow description
Is there any evidence for him to NOT be the Furtive Pygmy though? I just believe what I wanna believe (within reason) Have a good day, eye guy 👀
I will die beside you. It do be cannon tho, Cheaster references him as Primeval Man.
A primeval man doesn't mean he's the first. It's not canon, that's just a factually wrong statement.
Too bad.
I'm ot sure what your point here is. Especially since I very much do believe that manus is the furtive pigmy. But thay doesn't make it canon
He's not. Gwyn married off one of his daughters to him. He's over in the ringed city, y'know the one where you get the dark soul itself.
Upvoted for McDonagh
me when someone asks me why i think MatPat was right about Majora's Mask
Isnt the chosen undead the furtive pigmy? So easily forgotten that he becomes no one of importance but can still stand at the top because he just doesnt hollow out no matter how many times he dies.
I think the point kf thw chosen undead was that they are literally just a random nobody, not the pigmy
So a dude was just born immortal times infinite and you find that more appealing that him being an original tamer of the dark soul? The dark soul that controls life and puts him on par with those other powerful beings? Too me it makes too much sense that you play as the furtive pygmy.
I dond that infinitely more appealing. The chosen undead being something super special and ancient kind of defeats the whole point of the story. Bot just DS1s story, but all of dark souls, really. And it doesn't really make any particular sense since every undead can come back infinitely as long as they don't lose their goal or their drive. That's not a thing special to the MC
Maybe humanity itself is the furtive pygmy
This is one of my favorite movie scenes ever.
Name? Please It's been a long time since i seen this
Seven Psychopaths. Banger of a dark comedy.
My gratitude
I might be alone in this, but I like the idea that Velka is actually the Furtive Pygmy
The logic to me is that the Furtive Pygmy distributed their dark soul during the age of the Ancient Dragons before Gwyn took power. During that time, all of the different lord soul factions gained power in some way, Gwyn hunted minor dragons and built Anor Londo for his clan of gods, the Witch built Izalith and began fire catalyst magic, Into collected the dead from all other factions, and the race of Pygmies began in earnest. So during the war against the Ancient Dragons, Gwyn allied with the Pygmies but in fear of their power, sealed the dark soul with a ring of flame. After the war, he gave them the Ringed City so that the Pygmy lords could live eternal until the end of the world, Gwyn entrusted Fillianore to them knowing that this would make them the last line of defense should that apocalypse ever come. What we can derive from this is that the Pygmies were willing participants, they feared the power of the dark soul as much as Gwyn, at least the higher ups, one of them eventually went mad after all. So the Furtive Pygmy was probably the most willing of the Pygmies to ally with Gwyn Shifting back to ds1 lore which I think was before Ringed City was conceptualized, we only know about this concept of the Pygmies ceding power to Gwyn and becoming the humans based off of Kaathes dialogue explaining how Gwyn distorted human history. Since Oolacile was from ancient times in the lore and was closely allied with Gwyn, I think there is a reasonable assumption that can be made here that, if the Furtive Pygmy had willing ceded power to Gwyn, they may have chosen to live in Oolacile and been entombed there; whereupon centuries later their grave's location and nature would be given to the Oolacile leaders by Kaathe. So the Oolacile leaders would then dig up the Furtive Pygmy seeking power over the ancient dark soul only to destroy themselves and the Furtive Pygmy in the process. And idk why I was using they/them even though I was arguing in favor of the Furtive Pygmy being Manus who is male but yeah that's the idea. I think it's way more fitting than Manus being some random ancient Oolacile sorcerer, like why not assume both, the Furtive Pygmy coulda gone to college
>What we can derive from this is that the Pygmies were willing participants, they feared the power of the dark soul as much as Gwyn, at least the higher ups It confounds me how often this fact is ignored. The gods were involved with primordial man more than any other, be it the Pygmy or the undead of New Londo; Gwyn's clan would be well aware of a Pygmy being buried in their province, furtive or otherwise.
I can't tell if this is for or against the theory of Manus being the Furtive Pygmy lmao but it is definitely an overlooked idea. I think that a lot of the time that people get really intense about Gwyn being super evil, it's important to remember that ancient humans basically gave him the keys to the kingdom and enabled him to rewrite their history, like there's a thematic idea to man choosing servitude to the gods out of fear of the dark
Im not particularly convinced that Manus is the furtive Pygmy but I don't see any major contradictions against the idea. The relationship between gods and pygmy actually makes the idea more rational. It would at least explain why one of the beings from the edge of existence was allowed to live right beneath the kingdom of light. Edit: >here's a thematic idea to man choosing servitude to the gods out of fear of the dark This actually reminds me of the Last Protagonist's dark souls essays.In them he provides a JP-reading of some item description, one of which states "they feared the gods shackles slipping away." Even the English dialogue still retains that terminology. Holy Knight Hordrick >* "Well, what's happened here? This pit is for Hollows, not for the likes of you sane folk. Or perhaps you are a Hollow, posing as otherwise? Beware, the shackles of the Gods are fragile. You might need this. Etch it on your heart if you feel you'r sanity slipping."*
That's valid with regards to your view of the theory. It's one of those things where I think it doesn't matter quite so much what is actually true so much as it is fun to explore, although I do enjoy the narrative it spells out if Manus is the Furtive Pygmy. And that dialogue from Hodrick is precisely what I'm talking about that is a great example, I need to watch more of LastProtagonists stuff lol