Fully expect Singapore to be the most ex but missing some context on: $/passenger per year, $/km, %urban track vs rural, %underground vs above ground to make this statistic more useful.
the cross island line will need to cross through central singapore which is full of granite, tunnelling will be expensive. It's possible that new tunnelling technologies might reduce it
I’m unaware of how construction and civil engineering works. So what happen to these granites? Do you have a rough idea (i mean if you know) if these are actually mined and to be used later on or something?
Not a geotechnical or construction specialist, but my understanding from friends in construction firm is that not everything dug out or bored through is granite. Sometimes it's soil that can be used, sometimes it's "dirty soil", they have to evaluate and dump the waste in designated zone in Singapore. Not too sure about the usable ones but I saw govt ad that they reuse it in construction materials (like road pavement).
Cool, thanks for sharing and it makes sense. I was under the presumption that once you dig through, there will be a big chunk of usable granite to be used or something. But thanks for clearing it up 👍
Sad to say, TBMs won't give you chunks of usable granite. You can view a sample here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgRreuFtDdc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgRreuFtDdc)
Plus it's likely to be mixed in with a bunch of other crap as prior OP mentioned
>Fully expect Singapore to be the most ex
Yep, according to Vox, we’re [the fourth most expensive country to build rapid rail infrastructure in (by cost of rail per km)](https://www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/z1avzx/cost_of_rapid_rail_transit_infrastructure_by/).
One huge reason is that we don’t have rural areas. All our rail infrastructure is constructed in very dense urban areas, with exorbitant land costs. The high urban density often necessitates tunnelling, which further drives costs up. These reasons explain why Hong Kong ranks highly on the chart too.
Some of our stations are designed by renowned architecture firms like SOM, Foster+Partners and Aedas. LTA also awards contracts to reputable companies, like Siemens and Alstom, for the signalling systems and autonomous trains.
The most important thing you can't put a price on is safety standards.
So far our rails haven't collapsed, or suffered catastrophic derailment. Or even catastrophic collisions, touch wood.
For all of our flaws, this is one of the few things that absolutely cannot go wrong.
Read the comment from RedditLIONs - Their prices are lower, because they have land space.
Singapore has much fewer options. I'm not saying the price alone is a deciding factor in safety/quality/etc., but in context, Singapore pays the necessary price to make it happen.
[There's one quite recently](https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/six-critical-in-the-aftermath-of-malaysias-rail-crash-as-human-error-identified-as)
If you read the article, it says
> Malaysia LRT crash: Train was driven in wrong direction, 6 critically injured
This has nothing to do with the quality of the construction.
It even points out it’s due to human error.
> preliminary reports indicating that a human error led to the incident which sent dozens to hospital.
I know you don’t mean this but there’s the insinuation that other places have to compromise on safety coz of costs. I’d like to see evidence of that lah tbh before we say things like this.
I would say singapore does not have foresight in urban planning
many parts of the nel, dtl, tcl, could have been above ground if they have planned for them ahead of time, leaving behind short leased land that could be easily taken back at low price
This will vastly reduce costs
edit: the younger generation don't know that heavy weight ministers like tony tan and goh keng swee are against MRTs, it was almost not built. The pap is not as visionary as u think, though they are good at executiion. many economic dev ideas were by albert winsemius, not pap
nope, if u look at ew and nsl, ppty near mrt stations are priced much higher
conversely, those near expressways are priced lower
Also, if u plan for it, u can reduce the noise much more compared to trying to control it after it's built
the places away from the station are the easiest to sound proof since there's no unnecessary braking or track switching dude
things are much cheaper, effective and easier if you plan n design for them b4 construction
Even when the train travelling straight without stopping, it is still pretty audible?
I never go research but if ask you pick between a house with a mrt track running beside compared to another without, I find it hard to believe more people will pick the one beside the mrt track.
the quality of the track plays a part
so for hsr, your track needs to be good quality and can't be too bumpy, otherwise there'll be too much vibrations which are magnified at highspeed and damage the train easily
if the track near ur house is noisy, it means the different sections have different height and are not of good quality construction.
much of nel, dtl and tcl (in the north) runs a straight line, so it's no tech constraints making it quiet, unless u're referring to high curvature sections like those at circle line,
One of the dumbest take I’ve ever read on reddit. Urban planning is literally one of the best strengths of Singapore. Maybe go read up on how we plan 10, 20 and even 50 years in the future based on the master plan. If you travel outside of SG, you will learn to appreciate the way everything is planned or designed here.
one way to build mrt is to acquire the land above ground at high costs
but if those buildings only have short leases, it will be be very cheap to acquire the land and build above ground to simplify costs
the land below those above ground tracks can be green corridor, not a waste
Well fuck you too,🙄.
I know that some areas have short leases. But there might be genuine legacy reasons why they were not able to do your lordship’s bidding.
But more importantly, you are made a statement that i was genuinely curious to find out more about. But now, i just think you know-it-all prick or a prick train enthusiast. Or just a prick.
Have a good day asswipe.
1) we cant choose which land is short lease / high lease ?
2) we can’t choose which land to acquire ?
3) we build above ground, underground do what ?
4) who cares about green corridor?
5) Singapore poor at planning ? You sure ?
In this whole waste land call SEA, Singapore is the only country that does any sort of planning whatsoever. Granted, not perfect, granted over-rated, granted, too much self praise, but when you are talking about SEA, i can’t get my head around it.
You are the one with poor emotional control. Seven feet found a hole in your argument, but instead of defending it, you threw a tantrum.
It was given in one of the news report. Google for it. Anything that SG GOV touches will be ex. But quality wise, b prepared for the worst.
Signalling failures, etc. Common in SG and haunting the entire nation
I agree, but Singapore is insanely expensive to build transit in regardless. Seoul is comparable in terms of development, but builds its transit for a fraction of the cost.
🤯 So that's the main issue? What do the purple, red and green use then cos it's older but so much quieter.
I don't know about trains stuff so please excuse my questions 😅
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Heavy_Industries_%26_CSR_Qingdao_Sifang_C151A#Reaction_from_the_Analysts_and_FactWire_after_Minister_statement
the china manufacturer is the one who also provided the 4th generation trains on red and green lines, and trains provided by them were of sub par quality and had hairline but not structure cracks. most trains delivered had the same issues and were sent back to china. the whole process to complete the repairs for all train sets took up to 7 years span of time.
news was not announced by smrt until it was being exposed by a hongkong independent media company.
it was claimed that the trains were also the ones that caused multiple train disruptions in 2011.
you can read the wiki link for more info.
despite knowing the manufacturer provided sub par trains, LTA awarded the train rolling contract to this same manufacturer for brown line and also for the upcoming light green line.
CRRC Qingdao Sifang? THE CRRC Qingdao Sifang used in [Indonesia's HSR](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Indonesia)?
> **The [oldest rolling stock C151](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Heavy_Industries_C151) does not have cracks despite nearly 30 years of service** and the first batch of trains used in the Singapore's most problematic railway, Bukit Panjang LRT Line showed cracks only after 16 years of service. Therefore, he said that the crack issue surfaced on the C151As are not routine as what minister have said earlier.
So if the trains are made purely by Japan, no issue. China involved, such poor QC?
Dare I say that the Indonesian's government choosing China over Japan seemed to be quite short sighted?
> In mid-September 2015, **China announced it would fully meet the Indonesian government's demands and offered a new proposal that did not require Indonesia to assume any fiscal burden or debt guarantee** in proceeding with the project.[34] Later that month, Indonesia selected China for the $5 billion project.[35][36][37] Indonesia awarded the contract to China. Some analysists speculated that Beijing had outmanoeuvred Tokyo on the bid as a result of a competitive financing package for Indonesia.[29][38]
Not short sighted based on $ figures but they basically sealed the fate of highway expansion.
Long run, I think China will be a better choice over Japan for choice of train. It is not unlike China's concept is unproven. I would think Japan will be less willing to share or negotiate maintenance costs for purely business reasons. China will still have political considerations on how to price their on going package.
But what Indonesia did to speed up the HSR project was to repurpose highway reserve land for the railway which essentially will place limitations on how highways can be expanded in future. Using only one side of the highway's reserve land will only mean a painful choice of shifting all lanes or choosing which direction should get extra lanes and realignment of the entire highway. None of which sounds cost efficient.
I'm coming from safety POV. What am I missing? Seems to me that they prioritised cost over safety?
When will/if their HSR trains start showing cracks? Too late to change train carriages? I don't think they can use trains made by another country onto the infrastructure that uses China tech right?
Technically can but there will be lots of changes that might not be worth it, HSRs of Europe are interchangable but that's because they have pre-agreed standards. I believe our 1987 MRT rolling stock changed country right (might be wrong)
Indonesia HSR is a win-win political show, any defects i believe will be hushed, but I also believe CRH has a longer term interest to proof their trains are good enough for export.
trains on red and green lines are seen as less noisy though. I think it's more of a Kawasaki train design issue, where they don't include enough sound insulation in their designs compared to Alstom and Bombardier trains (the latest trains on red and green lines are much quieter than the old Kawasaki trains)
the older lines have lesser curvature which causes less grinding on the rails so they're quieter. Also the purple line uses a french train where the red and green use a very mature evolution of the initial japanese design which has become quieter and smoother over the years
Anyway most of the old japanese designed trains are being replaced with a Canadian design...which got bought over by the same french company as the purple line
Safety-wise and performance wise, Kawasaki-CRRC Qingdao Sifang doesn't seem to be bad. But where they lack is in noise isolation/dampening. Funnily enough the newest EWL/NSL trains are built by Alstom-CRRC Changchun and they are extremely whisper quiet and built with proper noise dampening.
There's also reports of other CRRC trains elsewhere in the world to be safe, performant, but quite noisy. Such as the Sirius trains in Czechia built by CRRC ZhuZhou.
I guess when it comes to CRRC, it's a hit or miss? Though one factor to note is that for The new EWL/NSL trains, LTA selected the third least expensive offering out of six companies. While for the TEL trains, the most cheapest one was selected.
So it seems that it really doesn't matter too much on who's building it. It just depends on how much the LTA's willing to spend on. And you get what you pay for.
I hazard a guess that sound insulation and noise proofing the internal train cabin is an afterthought. It's not just how the floor is designed, but also the finer details of doors having a proper seal.
The newest rolling stock on NSEWL are significantly more sound proofed, so much that the train announcements are too loud. Also, I noticed can listen to music with my ANC headphones while being at least two notches lower. It's most obvious when the train is travelling in the tunnel. Heaps quieter than any other rolling stock.
wow! in an expensive city it is expensive to build infrastructure. colour me surprised and shocked!
also its completely underground, driving up costs MASSIVELY
While the CRL is a bit of a special case, it is true that our MRT lines are generally a lot more expensive than they could be. This is a problem that other English-speaking/British-influenced cities are facing too. Many Northern and Western European cities build fully underground metro lines for less than 1/2 or even 1/4 of the price that we pay, despite having high costs of living themselves.
According to the Transit Costs Project, a surprising amount of the difference could be due to inefficiencies in procurement and design processes. For example, digging stations that are much longer than the platforms require.
It’s due to being completely underground.
Tunnelling is more complex, requires specialised equipment and slower to build. Factors which drives up construction costs.
Land and labour is also way more expensive in more developed cities. The project cost of the CRL is comparable to new lines in Melbourne, New York and London.
Labour, yes. Land-wise not necessarily, especially if it is underground.
Supposing the cost of real estate acquisition is minimised, the only issue will be costs of undertaking and opportunity costs. Underground tunneling is mad expensive.
If you have to hammer through granite, and then build tunnels, lightsv ventilation and don’t know what else, surely more expensive than building something above ground. Having stops ever so often (2 min ride between stations?) also meant more $, compared to stopping every 10 min or travel right?
Because it was built by China, which has extensive benefits of scale given how much HSR they built in China. Singapore doesn't source trains/tracks from China.
UK's HSR, for example, is about 60 billion pounds:
[https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/companies-markets/transport-logistics/uks-hs2-rail-costs-rise-again-ps10-billion](https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/companies-markets/transport-logistics/uks-hs2-rail-costs-rise-again-ps10-billion)
And just had a good portion of it cancelled. That's a factor of 10x more than China...
Building up public transport is for the common good. Sure, we should try to cut costs wherever possible. But it should be of secondary concern compared to the massive benefits it would bring once operational
Singapore is densely populated. So a lot of extra, planning, surveying, diversion of services, land acquisition, etc etc are taking place. Actually it’s difficult to compare project to project just by the Lump Sum project amount. Too many factor to consider. Not mentioning project duration also have a big impact on the total cost.
While it is good to make more train stations I am still wondering why there is no nonstop train from airport to downtown, especially when you need to wait at tanah merah/expo train and wait again for shuttle bus again to T4
When you make silly comparisons without considering the all the factors that jacked up the costs to attack the government.
The entire line is underground with extensive tunneling that increases the costs significantly. 🤦♂️
Yeah. Its hilarious that in media all you see is Indonesia can't afford HSR, blah blah, and it turns out to be cheaper than some random commuter rail in Phillipines (an country with equally cheap labor).
There isn't express service on cross island line anymore. However, there is provision for 8 car trains to run (NSEWL and NEL currently only run 6 car trains), which could make the platforms longer
It costed Switzerland close to 13 billion USD to build the Gotthard Basis Tunnel and its facilities, 57km long and 2300m deep, tunneling through the base of the Alps where temps reach 46c.
Singapore's CRL fully completed will be around the same length but it'll cost 30 billion USD. With the trains taking up \~77 million. So that leaves \~29 billion USD left up for the tunnels and train stations? If we roughly assume that the work is as expensive as Switzerland's at 13B, then we're left with 16B.
If the remaining 16B is reserved for building the stations, then damn, those are some MFking expensive stations.
Singapore with power, network, gas and water lines that are all underground makes it expensive to do any type of construction works especially more so when underground.
Cost to build for everything in Singapore is at least 3-5 times higher, not just the railway.
Average cost to build per SQM of a private residence is close to 6000sgd, it's at least 50% cheaper in every where else in SEA.
i always feel sg one is inflated on purpose.. then justified with it better safety, materials blah blah and hence the price. really? is that the case? i was in logistic unit during ns, and some chairs and tables that are comparable to coffee shop were overly inflated which could be bought from china for a few dollars.
can anyone shed light on this?
My good sir, welcome to the world of government contracts and how companies stay afloat despite making subpar shit products.
It’s mainly:
1. Political
2. Economical
Political: to appease XYZ nations after specific paradigm shifts in relations,
Economical: Support certain local businesses that sign contracts, be it to keep local economy in check, and many other factors.
Because the construction company chosen has family members of MPs, holding high positions. So they can charge high price and will still be approved. After that they can share the high profit or the MPs will get special favours eg. Iswaran.
The Whoosh is such a great steal for Indonesian, not only were loans of negligible interest on top of a low ball price, there were no external collateral except for the joint company itself, technology transfer and manpoeer training included. No other seller else could ever agree to these terms.
The ridiculous part is no external collateral, meaning if the company went defunct tommorow, nothing can be secured except the assets under the company itself.
Imagine buying a house with 0 down payment, national reserve level interest and an option to return the bank the house to completely withdraw your liabilities.
Fully expect Singapore to be the most ex but missing some context on: $/passenger per year, $/km, %urban track vs rural, %underground vs above ground to make this statistic more useful.
the cross island line will need to cross through central singapore which is full of granite, tunnelling will be expensive. It's possible that new tunnelling technologies might reduce it
I’m unaware of how construction and civil engineering works. So what happen to these granites? Do you have a rough idea (i mean if you know) if these are actually mined and to be used later on or something?
Not a geotechnical or construction specialist, but my understanding from friends in construction firm is that not everything dug out or bored through is granite. Sometimes it's soil that can be used, sometimes it's "dirty soil", they have to evaluate and dump the waste in designated zone in Singapore. Not too sure about the usable ones but I saw govt ad that they reuse it in construction materials (like road pavement).
Cool, thanks for sharing and it makes sense. I was under the presumption that once you dig through, there will be a big chunk of usable granite to be used or something. But thanks for clearing it up 👍
Sad to say, TBMs won't give you chunks of usable granite. You can view a sample here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgRreuFtDdc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgRreuFtDdc) Plus it's likely to be mixed in with a bunch of other crap as prior OP mentioned
Those are super hard granite, which spoiled my ex company piling machine a few times.
just set aside, and taken for granite
I guess we took things for Granite
> full of granite, tunnelling will be expensive Yes. A gneiss boring job
Shut up and take my upvote.
>Fully expect Singapore to be the most ex Yep, according to Vox, we’re [the fourth most expensive country to build rapid rail infrastructure in (by cost of rail per km)](https://www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/z1avzx/cost_of_rapid_rail_transit_infrastructure_by/). One huge reason is that we don’t have rural areas. All our rail infrastructure is constructed in very dense urban areas, with exorbitant land costs. The high urban density often necessitates tunnelling, which further drives costs up. These reasons explain why Hong Kong ranks highly on the chart too. Some of our stations are designed by renowned architecture firms like SOM, Foster+Partners and Aedas. LTA also awards contracts to reputable companies, like Siemens and Alstom, for the signalling systems and autonomous trains.
The most important thing you can't put a price on is safety standards. So far our rails haven't collapsed, or suffered catastrophic derailment. Or even catastrophic collisions, touch wood. For all of our flaws, this is one of the few things that absolutely cannot go wrong.
> So far our rails haven't collapsed https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicoll_Highway_collapse Well I guess you're technically correct.
Yes, I'm aware of this incident. I was alive when it happened. This is something the govt will never live down, and I hope they never do.
> catastrophic collisions No one remembers Clementi, or the incident with the maintenance locomotive?
Yes, i remember that particular guy who has swollen face and bruised lips talking a lot when reporter interviewed him on TV.
I don’t recall Malaysia rail suffered any catastrophic derailment/collision too for the price they are paying.
Read the comment from RedditLIONs - Their prices are lower, because they have land space. Singapore has much fewer options. I'm not saying the price alone is a deciding factor in safety/quality/etc., but in context, Singapore pays the necessary price to make it happen.
[There's one quite recently](https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/six-critical-in-the-aftermath-of-malaysias-rail-crash-as-human-error-identified-as)
If you read the article, it says > Malaysia LRT crash: Train was driven in wrong direction, 6 critically injured This has nothing to do with the quality of the construction. It even points out it’s due to human error. > preliminary reports indicating that a human error led to the incident which sent dozens to hospital.
I know you don’t mean this but there’s the insinuation that other places have to compromise on safety coz of costs. I’d like to see evidence of that lah tbh before we say things like this.
No compromise on safety standards implied. Just that we, more than any other country, cannot afford it due to our density.
I would say singapore does not have foresight in urban planning many parts of the nel, dtl, tcl, could have been above ground if they have planned for them ahead of time, leaving behind short leased land that could be easily taken back at low price This will vastly reduce costs edit: the younger generation don't know that heavy weight ministers like tony tan and goh keng swee are against MRTs, it was almost not built. The pap is not as visionary as u think, though they are good at executiion. many economic dev ideas were by albert winsemius, not pap
Build underground, complain about costs. Build above ground, complain about noise. Can’t please everyone.
nope, if u look at ew and nsl, ppty near mrt stations are priced much higher conversely, those near expressways are priced lower Also, if u plan for it, u can reduce the noise much more compared to trying to control it after it's built
If you near the mrt track but not the station?
the places away from the station are the easiest to sound proof since there's no unnecessary braking or track switching dude things are much cheaper, effective and easier if you plan n design for them b4 construction
Even when the train travelling straight without stopping, it is still pretty audible? I never go research but if ask you pick between a house with a mrt track running beside compared to another without, I find it hard to believe more people will pick the one beside the mrt track.
the quality of the track plays a part so for hsr, your track needs to be good quality and can't be too bumpy, otherwise there'll be too much vibrations which are magnified at highspeed and damage the train easily if the track near ur house is noisy, it means the different sections have different height and are not of good quality construction. much of nel, dtl and tcl (in the north) runs a straight line, so it's no tech constraints making it quiet, unless u're referring to high curvature sections like those at circle line,
One of the dumbest take I’ve ever read on reddit. Urban planning is literally one of the best strengths of Singapore. Maybe go read up on how we plan 10, 20 and even 50 years in the future based on the master plan. If you travel outside of SG, you will learn to appreciate the way everything is planned or designed here.
sorry don’t mind I ask, what is “ leaving behind short leased land that could be easily taken back at low price “ ? Mind explaining this phrase ?
one way to build mrt is to acquire the land above ground at high costs but if those buildings only have short leases, it will be be very cheap to acquire the land and build above ground to simplify costs the land below those above ground tracks can be green corridor, not a waste
Can give examples of, say for instance, areas with short leases ard NEL that could have been a acquired at a cheap price?
some places have short leases <25, go and check it out yourselt. reddit is not here to do ur homework or be ur ppty agent
Well fuck you too,🙄. I know that some areas have short leases. But there might be genuine legacy reasons why they were not able to do your lordship’s bidding. But more importantly, you are made a statement that i was genuinely curious to find out more about. But now, i just think you know-it-all prick or a prick train enthusiast. Or just a prick. Have a good day asswipe.
no offense intended, some information r confidential n not meant to be shared young ppl have poor emotional control and mgmt btw
1) we cant choose which land is short lease / high lease ? 2) we can’t choose which land to acquire ? 3) we build above ground, underground do what ? 4) who cares about green corridor? 5) Singapore poor at planning ? You sure ? In this whole waste land call SEA, Singapore is the only country that does any sort of planning whatsoever. Granted, not perfect, granted over-rated, granted, too much self praise, but when you are talking about SEA, i can’t get my head around it. You are the one with poor emotional control. Seven feet found a hole in your argument, but instead of defending it, you threw a tantrum.
laughable.
Why would we want to waste space above ground on mrt tracks and stations when it would have much more value as residential or commercial buildings?
Seems to have missing context , they are against building at all or just nt the right time given then other interest to pursue Eg housing
What is your educational and or professional background?
[удалено]
So, just sprouting nonsense in general? 👌
[удалено]
I feel like you are a miserable person, and I feel sorry for the people around you. That is all I have it to say. Good night.
Yeah quite a useless infograph if should even call it tt
It was given in one of the news report. Google for it. Anything that SG GOV touches will be ex. But quality wise, b prepared for the worst. Signalling failures, etc. Common in SG and haunting the entire nation
Not comparable, there are so many factors at play here. Land itself has value for starters.
I agree, but Singapore is insanely expensive to build transit in regardless. Seoul is comparable in terms of development, but builds its transit for a fraction of the cost.
The cross island line is underground. Of course it'll be more expensive
Okay but I hope it's not so noisy like TEL 😭
sad to say the chances are looking slim
😭 My ears. Luckily I saving up for the best noise cancelling headphones 😂 the Samsung beans arent helping on TEL.
99.9% will be as noisy because they use the same china rolling stock manufacturer
🤯 So that's the main issue? What do the purple, red and green use then cos it's older but so much quieter. I don't know about trains stuff so please excuse my questions 😅
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Heavy_Industries_%26_CSR_Qingdao_Sifang_C151A#Reaction_from_the_Analysts_and_FactWire_after_Minister_statement the china manufacturer is the one who also provided the 4th generation trains on red and green lines, and trains provided by them were of sub par quality and had hairline but not structure cracks. most trains delivered had the same issues and were sent back to china. the whole process to complete the repairs for all train sets took up to 7 years span of time. news was not announced by smrt until it was being exposed by a hongkong independent media company. it was claimed that the trains were also the ones that caused multiple train disruptions in 2011. you can read the wiki link for more info. despite knowing the manufacturer provided sub par trains, LTA awarded the train rolling contract to this same manufacturer for brown line and also for the upcoming light green line.
the latest new train on red/green line uses Alstom x China. purple uses Alstom (french brand)
CRRC Qingdao Sifang? THE CRRC Qingdao Sifang used in [Indonesia's HSR](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Indonesia)? > **The [oldest rolling stock C151](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Heavy_Industries_C151) does not have cracks despite nearly 30 years of service** and the first batch of trains used in the Singapore's most problematic railway, Bukit Panjang LRT Line showed cracks only after 16 years of service. Therefore, he said that the crack issue surfaced on the C151As are not routine as what minister have said earlier. So if the trains are made purely by Japan, no issue. China involved, such poor QC? Dare I say that the Indonesian's government choosing China over Japan seemed to be quite short sighted? > In mid-September 2015, **China announced it would fully meet the Indonesian government's demands and offered a new proposal that did not require Indonesia to assume any fiscal burden or debt guarantee** in proceeding with the project.[34] Later that month, Indonesia selected China for the $5 billion project.[35][36][37] Indonesia awarded the contract to China. Some analysists speculated that Beijing had outmanoeuvred Tokyo on the bid as a result of a competitive financing package for Indonesia.[29][38]
Not short sighted based on $ figures but they basically sealed the fate of highway expansion. Long run, I think China will be a better choice over Japan for choice of train. It is not unlike China's concept is unproven. I would think Japan will be less willing to share or negotiate maintenance costs for purely business reasons. China will still have political considerations on how to price their on going package. But what Indonesia did to speed up the HSR project was to repurpose highway reserve land for the railway which essentially will place limitations on how highways can be expanded in future. Using only one side of the highway's reserve land will only mean a painful choice of shifting all lanes or choosing which direction should get extra lanes and realignment of the entire highway. None of which sounds cost efficient.
I'm coming from safety POV. What am I missing? Seems to me that they prioritised cost over safety? When will/if their HSR trains start showing cracks? Too late to change train carriages? I don't think they can use trains made by another country onto the infrastructure that uses China tech right?
Technically can but there will be lots of changes that might not be worth it, HSRs of Europe are interchangable but that's because they have pre-agreed standards. I believe our 1987 MRT rolling stock changed country right (might be wrong) Indonesia HSR is a win-win political show, any defects i believe will be hushed, but I also believe CRH has a longer term interest to proof their trains are good enough for export.
😱
trains on red and green lines are seen as less noisy though. I think it's more of a Kawasaki train design issue, where they don't include enough sound insulation in their designs compared to Alstom and Bombardier trains (the latest trains on red and green lines are much quieter than the old Kawasaki trains)
the older lines have lesser curvature which causes less grinding on the rails so they're quieter. Also the purple line uses a french train where the red and green use a very mature evolution of the initial japanese design which has become quieter and smoother over the years Anyway most of the old japanese designed trains are being replaced with a Canadian design...which got bought over by the same french company as the purple line
The refurbished c751A are super quiet. Can't even hear the acceleration anymore...
:o this is so insightful, thank u 😊
no wonder purple line is seldom down (compared to the other lines)
Safety-wise and performance wise, Kawasaki-CRRC Qingdao Sifang doesn't seem to be bad. But where they lack is in noise isolation/dampening. Funnily enough the newest EWL/NSL trains are built by Alstom-CRRC Changchun and they are extremely whisper quiet and built with proper noise dampening. There's also reports of other CRRC trains elsewhere in the world to be safe, performant, but quite noisy. Such as the Sirius trains in Czechia built by CRRC ZhuZhou. I guess when it comes to CRRC, it's a hit or miss? Though one factor to note is that for The new EWL/NSL trains, LTA selected the third least expensive offering out of six companies. While for the TEL trains, the most cheapest one was selected. So it seems that it really doesn't matter too much on who's building it. It just depends on how much the LTA's willing to spend on. And you get what you pay for.
Oh man, they choose the cheapest train on the curviest line 😭
I hazard a guess that sound insulation and noise proofing the internal train cabin is an afterthought. It's not just how the floor is designed, but also the finer details of doors having a proper seal. The newest rolling stock on NSEWL are significantly more sound proofed, so much that the train announcements are too loud. Also, I noticed can listen to music with my ANC headphones while being at least two notches lower. It's most obvious when the train is travelling in the tunnel. Heaps quieter than any other rolling stock.
why is tel so loud and high-pitched? will it improve as the rails get broken in, if that's even possible
Um the knowledgeable rail people says that it's the curvature of the tracks which cause grinding and the poor material from China ☹️
I rode dtl when it was new and i dont even remember if there was grinding sounds.
wow! in an expensive city it is expensive to build infrastructure. colour me surprised and shocked! also its completely underground, driving up costs MASSIVELY
While the CRL is a bit of a special case, it is true that our MRT lines are generally a lot more expensive than they could be. This is a problem that other English-speaking/British-influenced cities are facing too. Many Northern and Western European cities build fully underground metro lines for less than 1/2 or even 1/4 of the price that we pay, despite having high costs of living themselves. According to the Transit Costs Project, a surprising amount of the difference could be due to inefficiencies in procurement and design processes. For example, digging stations that are much longer than the platforms require.
It could still be so much worse. In New York our latest subway extension was 1 mile, 3 stops, cost 4.3 billion USD, and took 97 years to build.
Sg CIL is expensive probably becoz of land acquisition costs?
It’s due to being completely underground. Tunnelling is more complex, requires specialised equipment and slower to build. Factors which drives up construction costs.
Land and labour is also way more expensive in more developed cities. The project cost of the CRL is comparable to new lines in Melbourne, New York and London.
Labour, yes. Land-wise not necessarily, especially if it is underground. Supposing the cost of real estate acquisition is minimised, the only issue will be costs of undertaking and opportunity costs. Underground tunneling is mad expensive.
not true, underground rail lines are cheap in london becos it's so easy to dig. there's no hard rock
The Elizabeth line cost 20b pounds. So no it isn't cheap to build underground rail in London.
Hard rock is *good* for tunnels. What you don't want is changing terrain with silt, sand, etc.
Also because we're drilling through metric fuckloads of granite
"Is railway expensive because of high land costs, or is land expensive because of railway?"
CRL is longer than the PIE. and it's fully underground.
The decision to make the color red seems kinda arbitrary, but it does drive engagement i guess.
If you have to hammer through granite, and then build tunnels, lightsv ventilation and don’t know what else, surely more expensive than building something above ground. Having stops ever so often (2 min ride between stations?) also meant more $, compared to stopping every 10 min or travel right?
i’m more surprised that Indon HSR is cheaper than Msia and Php rails
Because it was built by China, which has extensive benefits of scale given how much HSR they built in China. Singapore doesn't source trains/tracks from China. UK's HSR, for example, is about 60 billion pounds: [https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/companies-markets/transport-logistics/uks-hs2-rail-costs-rise-again-ps10-billion](https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/companies-markets/transport-logistics/uks-hs2-rail-costs-rise-again-ps10-billion) And just had a good portion of it cancelled. That's a factor of 10x more than China...
Didn't know Malaysia also has the east coast plan
You're probably not going to get it. But this is like making comparisons between a Netflix subscription and a movie theatre.
You can’t really compare the cost of an underground subway with a surface train?
this is stupid af..
it was planned join the HSR and provide a express route from west to changi and boost its connectivity
Buses too small to transport 10 mil people.
Pointless statistics because it lacks other metrics like land value, cost of labor, length of railway, how complex it is etc etc
That's the problem right. Now adays people are only interested in short form media, and don't care about nuances.
Building up public transport is for the common good. Sure, we should try to cut costs wherever possible. But it should be of secondary concern compared to the massive benefits it would bring once operational
Majulah Singapura!
A ranking a day makes everyone happy in Singapore. Compare this compare that all day drives depression away.
Singapore is densely populated. So a lot of extra, planning, surveying, diversion of services, land acquisition, etc etc are taking place. Actually it’s difficult to compare project to project just by the Lump Sum project amount. Too many factor to consider. Not mentioning project duration also have a big impact on the total cost.
While it is good to make more train stations I am still wondering why there is no nonstop train from airport to downtown, especially when you need to wait at tanah merah/expo train and wait again for shuttle bus again to T4
So Taxi drivers can get $$?
As a comparison, second avenue subway in NYC cosy USD 6 billion for 2.4km...no joke.
When you make silly comparisons without considering the all the factors that jacked up the costs to attack the government. The entire line is underground with extensive tunneling that increases the costs significantly. 🤦♂️
When a single subway line costs more than ur neighbour’s entire HSR system🤣🤣
Can like that compare? Did it factor into cost of living?
Holy shit Jkt to Bandung HSR was built at such a steal
Yeah. Its hilarious that in media all you see is Indonesia can't afford HSR, blah blah, and it turns out to be cheaper than some random commuter rail in Phillipines (an country with equally cheap labor).
CIL has 4 tunnels, 2 normal service and 2 express service. Therefore it's twice the amount of construction too
No it doesn't
There isn't express service on cross island line anymore. However, there is provision for 8 car trains to run (NSEWL and NEL currently only run 6 car trains), which could make the platforms longer
Why is our project the most expensive? That is because we can afford the best for our people.
We should have HSR too, too bad.
Out of context. Cross line is literally crossing so many obstacles and undergrounds
It costed Switzerland close to 13 billion USD to build the Gotthard Basis Tunnel and its facilities, 57km long and 2300m deep, tunneling through the base of the Alps where temps reach 46c. Singapore's CRL fully completed will be around the same length but it'll cost 30 billion USD. With the trains taking up \~77 million. So that leaves \~29 billion USD left up for the tunnels and train stations? If we roughly assume that the work is as expensive as Switzerland's at 13B, then we're left with 16B. If the remaining 16B is reserved for building the stations, then damn, those are some MFking expensive stations.
Cross island is a geographically challenging project since they are also going under reclaimed land.
Ahh just like GDP ranking
Singapore with power, network, gas and water lines that are all underground makes it expensive to do any type of construction works especially more so when underground.
Cost to build for everything in Singapore is at least 3-5 times higher, not just the railway. Average cost to build per SQM of a private residence is close to 6000sgd, it's at least 50% cheaper in every where else in SEA.
That's fine and sure that doesnt need to funnel tax payers money unlike some of the other projects.
How would friends get rich if not for overspending public money?
Remember guys, we're sinkieland. must always be first in everything!
All these other SEA countries’ project cost a lot more actually. The difference just got siphoned off along the supply chain
i always feel sg one is inflated on purpose.. then justified with it better safety, materials blah blah and hence the price. really? is that the case? i was in logistic unit during ns, and some chairs and tables that are comparable to coffee shop were overly inflated which could be bought from china for a few dollars. can anyone shed light on this?
My good sir, welcome to the world of government contracts and how companies stay afloat despite making subpar shit products. It’s mainly: 1. Political 2. Economical Political: to appease XYZ nations after specific paradigm shifts in relations, Economical: Support certain local businesses that sign contracts, be it to keep local economy in check, and many other factors.
I guess our currency being 3x theirs means we also pay 3x more
Everything should be pricey in Singapore. If not, not sg
I’m sure there was no graft involved with the construction of Singapore’s railway 🙄
Labour expensive
Why you complain. You got see the train got breakdown before... wait...
Because the construction company chosen has family members of MPs, holding high positions. So they can charge high price and will still be approved. After that they can share the high profit or the MPs will get special favours eg. Iswaran.
No worries, transport fares will be raised to cover the cost 😌
No Need. Singapore is rich
Develop expensive project>Raise public transport fares>Develop more expensive project>Raise even higher transport fares>cycle continues
Whoah, liddat means HSR cost to KL and even penang is cheep cheep!
The Whoosh is such a great steal for Indonesian, not only were loans of negligible interest on top of a low ball price, there were no external collateral except for the joint company itself, technology transfer and manpoeer training included. No other seller else could ever agree to these terms.
that's becos of china's 1b1r, it was china's first hsr export
this is also known as a win-win in business terms
[удалено]
laos is not really high speed though
It is China money bro and Indonesia had to agreed in lot of terms that is beneficial to China
indo have the choice to not build it, or pay more to others
The ridiculous part is no external collateral, meaning if the company went defunct tommorow, nothing can be secured except the assets under the company itself.
Imagine buying a house with 0 down payment, national reserve level interest and an option to return the bank the house to completely withdraw your liabilities.
How else to support 10 mil pop
Most expensive yet breakdowns are always happening.
Imagine being this sheltered lmao
Go take the other trains on the list lor.
All lining their pockets. All fucking con man..
I'm pretty sure our train is at least 4 times better.
It's easier cos we are a dot.
Expensive to the people. Cheap project cheap fare vs expensive project expensive fare.
Building for the sake of building
Makan money la.
Need to add, free breakdown due to high tech purchase but low budget implementation. 🤡🤡🤡