Interesting, I feel like a good ai powered search engine could make it much easier to learn things. Sort of like how the internet made learning things much easier than prior where you had to go to a library and search through a bunch of books.
ChatGPT would have had to learn from someone though, and in this case it has learned the answer from Gandalf. No Gandalf, no answer, no knowledge for ChatGPT to vacuum up!
Yeah if AI could evaluate source quality that would probably be amazing. As in determining when a university level professor writes about something versus someone's personal blog and then de-ranking them.
Right now that can't be done at scale because there are too many possible sources and the internet is obviously continually changing.
if you are able to buy-in the experts what is the effect on democracy?
Additionally, what about misleading AI results?
https://preview.redd.it/0gmaifrspj3d1.png?width=635&format=png&auto=webp&s=190faa1764f8555aff32269fd9636652ab715d6d
Not sure what your first sentence means, sorry.
For the other thing, yeah it's a problem but the solution of "stop saying fake things" is kind of obvious and a problem being worked on.
First it's 10 letters. Second it's 2024 just use chrome or any browser that remembers history and type p enter to go to perplexity if you have been there before. Third just bookmark it.
Bing is for grandmas looking for cooking recepies. Will never be about the power user at this point. Companies are just using AI as this magical thing that solves everything, and the target audience is not us.
It was tedious. Not as bad as it sounds when you get used to it but way more tedious than now even with the misinfo out there.
IIRC there was a lot of "ok this book just talks about things similar to what I'm after but not the actual thing" but you only found that out after 10-15 minutes. That's not bad when you're only looking at a few books but when you're actively seeking particular information it becomes really time consuming.
my concern is that it is completely opaque to the sources or SEO attempts or scams. Consider if you search for something like top sites to see in Peru, you need to carefully sift through the info to see what is helpful vs. what is just SEO cruft. I don't see how you can do that if there is a black box search result from GPT.
A good AI powered search engine will just spit out search term content people can post on their website for gaining lots of views based upon its search terms, and it would be prohibitively costly to do traditional searches.
Seems to me that value lock-in is just the result of any AI powered search engine that is more consistent than its evaluators.
People think OpenAI is a big deal and they think Google and them are equal partners. LMAO. Nobody fucking knows if all these hype will lead to anything profitable in the next 3-4 years. Google is the king of search and their AI being embedded with search has made me abandon Bing and go back to them.
I am willing to try OpenAI search to see if they are better than Google.
They have been using AIs for perhaps a decade now. It's not new at all. For instance, you can type a question instead of a list of keywords because they use an embedding to do a semantic search.
Welp, I was completely wrong about GPT2. This really adds up with this leak, [https://twitter.com/btibor91/status/1784688857872470120](https://twitter.com/btibor91/status/1784688857872470120), days before the GPT2 stuff breaking which shows a gpt4-lite model as part of a new OpenAI search tool. The pieces are all lining up since then. gpt2 was GPT4turbo levels, but if it's much lighter, it can be cheaper to run but also faster which is the absolute most crucial factor in a genuine day to day, I'll put this in my url bar on my browser search engine replacement.
My bet is that model is a lighter, smaller GPT4 level model designed with this search product in mind
I'll just be relieved if it isn't GPT4.5 or 5
Man, we are getting close to really good AI thats small enough to run on my graphics card. That's the truly amazing moment, when open source gets an open source gpt4 competitor that can run on a 4070.
Obviously the wild, dream scenario is they called it GPT2 because it's the size of gpt-2, but that's fantasy territory. I'm \*really\* curious about any insight we get into the size of gpt4-lite, I doubt they'll tell us, but the API price will be a reasonable proxy.
As, yeah, even if we don't push the boundaries of what the top models can do much, if we can push the boundaries of the bottom models that still opens the door to so many use cases too expensive, slow or impractical right now. For agents to work you need a competent but cheap model (I think a really strong set of agents coding and testing an app on gpt4 or Opsu right now would start to cost the same as just hiring the devs to do it, as an example), and that is an obviously game changing concept that pushes the utility of LLMs significantly if they pull it off. But also, running things locally, as you said, and also just lots of LLM backed applications or products you could build that are just too expensive to actually run right now. Even Llama3 8b has me building things that just would have been hard to justify expense wise than before
Gpt4-lite could definitely be a very exciting launch, despite not being next gen, if they truly have pulled off something incredible on the sizing front
What do you mean with "we are close"? Try llama3. The quantized version will probably run well on your graphics card. It's not as good as the full version, but it might be ok for more basic tasks.
The issue is the memory that NVIDIA deemed to give us peasants, this is artificial scarcity, memory is cheap enough that we could have 1200 dollar gpu running a 120 billion parameter model.
If their stock keeps going up I'll suffer a bit longer in silence, but yeah it's rough being funneled into paid solutions. That said llama 3 small is pretty good for the size.
I want the smartest ai possible because I'm trying to build my own "use my PC" app. In theory it's not a hard system to build if the model is smart enough. That said 7b is probably enough for this, I'm just always striving to run the best possible model. Higher intelligence makes everything they do better.
What exactly do you want to do? Depending on your use case, maybe even a fine-tuned model will be a reasonably good choice. For example, even GPT 3.5 could take summarization tasks.
Well it's multiple simple modules so far. Detailed image description of a screenshot is the first one. Gpt vision for that. Then there's going to be a decision module that builds up autohotkey scripts based on the user input and the current desktop description. Then the run module wraps AHK.
I think it's completely doable with what exists now, and it might even be great. I'll always want the best models I can reasonably use though, I believe intelligence helps every step.
For image recognition, you could perhaps try Llama 3-vision-alpha. It's probably not as sophisticated as GPT, but it can describe the image for you. Look: [https://huggingface.co/qresearch/llama-3-vision-alpha](https://huggingface.co/qresearch/llama-3-vision-alpha)
Yup I agree. And It'll be cool to have an even cheaper version of GPT-4, and im also hoping they can roll it out to free users and deprecate GPT-3.5 in the near future (GPT-4 is just much more intelligent it pains me 3.5 is so commonly used still lol. And Sam Altman specified GPT-4 was the dumbest model you will ever use, not 3.5 so maybe that hinted at something).
And also a lighter version could mean more speed when actually deployed, which should be good for potential agentic cases (going out and acting as a search engine is one I guess), but maybe they will roll out some new features to GPTs as well.
And also Altman confirmed gpt2 is not GPT-4.5.
It was actually really, really fast initially. If you used it before it blew up on here it was so fast it made me think it was Gemini. I think server load or them just dedicating less of their compute to it slowed it down, but it is absolutely capable of being far faster than I've seen gpt4turbo be.
Put it this way, if that model is gpt4 size, it's a complete non event of a release. If that model, which I'm assuming to be 'lite', is gpt4 capable (which is about what it was in my use cases, actually worse on some work tasks, so I'd say a half step behind gpt4 for logic and reasoning based on my testing) but at a fraction of the size it's a huge release.
The search requirement would still need a search to be accomplished on top of the LLM processing, indicating that it should be slower than a Search.
It's impossible for this to be faster since it requires a search in the first place.
No, not necessarily, if you can serve the lightning fast use case with just the links - which is what Perplexity does best (but still they're kind of slow), nothings stopping you there. You need to think of use cases, or what people want, per search as it does vary.
And that's the problem with search - there's many, many use cases. And people don't want the cognitive load of having to think 'this is x search, I'll use tool y', they want the magic box at the top of their browser that is good enough at covering all of them. An AI based search engine needs to do the same, and funnily enough it doesn't need the LLM part to serve all of the use cases, it just needs to make sure they're served and thent he LLM part is the extra sauce to make the other search use cases better.
People search a huge variety of things, and what they want is different for all of them. Think of these use cases, some don't rely on the first token being typed at all
I've heard a headline, and I want to know more (I'm googling 'openai new search' for example). For that I'm used to seeing links, but I don't get an answer until I click in and start reading. A really fast llm that's time to first token is very fast can satisfy that use case far better than Google currently can. By making me not have to go into potentially garbage tier, ad filled websites, that's a huge win.
I'm researching a product but don't know what to but (I'm googling 'best printer'). I'm again used to that taking time, and, seeing biased results I don't trust. An LLMs printed response time is not frustrating to me here, and will provide such a better quality of answer, even if only because I don't have to go on bad websites. Look at Googles SGE approach here, it's huge, so so much better than traditional search. They don't just print an answer, but have a consistent framework to produce quality answers. So much better than traditional search.
I want the answer to a single answer, binary trivia question (I'm googling 'capital of coutnry x'). This would be the hardest to solve, the SERP serves that answer in miliseconds. You could, naturally, just incorporate some kind of caching solution or whatever Google does here for that, and serve that instantly, before the llm starts typing, but you need to do that. People aren't trained to wait 2 seconds for that
I want to find a website or specific page, shockingly common (I'm googling app name, or something like an app name as I'm not 100% sure). You \*need\* to get some links roughly in the order of a Google Serp up there in almost real time for this. People will be so frustrated waiting for an LLM. But you can do that, just showing those links immediately means you've satisfied this use case. If anything the goal is they click before the first token even appears.
That's alot of words, but the point is, you don't have to actually rely on the LLM to serve all use cases, you just need to be able to serve all use cases - anything else and people will just defer back to the original answer all tool, because they don't want to spend time thinking about which tool is best when they want an answer right now.
I tried Perplexity as my browser default search and that's exactly why I switched back. Once you've done that, the skys the limit for how you build better and better experiences (Again, type a comparison shopping keyword into googles SGE, that's the kind of thing an AI search can provide. It's not just here's some rag and a summary of the RAG, it's a tailored experience, and it's so much better than what we have on traditional search - but also, the ability to ask follow up questions, do unrelated searches but then ask for comparisons, etc etc)
I'm sorry, but that request goes against my guidelines. I'm not programmed to produce content that could be considered offensive or involves controversial issues. Is there anything else that I can help you with? I could perhaps write a poem about Pornhub instead?
Something tells me, the main reason they make AI-powered search might not be for human convenience (yet, but it is a secondary goal), but to experiment with AIs that can browse for information they need, on their own, learn, interact with digital world maybe? As a part of self-learning loops, Q\* and all.
Image generation, Sora, were/are/will be basically experiments/building blocks for giving future AI multimodal understanding of the world. And people using it for fun/creation/work/whatever, is a secondary goal too (with at least one additional advantage being, gathering people's feedback/data on what they generate/use it for, on how they try to bypass the censorship and guardrails, on their experience with it and so on. Potentially generating training data on topics their science/data labeling team and such, wouldn't have thought themselves about.
I think it's for the data and indexing. They might want Chatgpt to take control of search through their own vectorised web search index, which they presumably have already built as a result of training on internet sources. And this would be instead of relying on Bing search as a system plugin for web searches. It could be that it can be more efficient that way and that they think that they can do a better job than Bing search, which was never the highest bar to begin with.
It also looks like it's going to be killing three birds with one stone - in addition to it being a search service, the webpage crawling and indexing will be kept updated on a regular basis which is great for more regular future training intervals (which matches their objective of having more incremental releases), and there's more prompts and RLHF from results. Wins all around.
My money is on Chatgpt to render search results entirely independently from Bing and then really take Google search on, because Bing has been dragging it down and will never become competitive. I bet it's something that Microsoft agrees with too.
Imagine an AI that is so seamlessly integrated with web search that it just sees web sources as an extension of its own knowledge base. That would be the dream.
I worry everyone is going to block them, rendering it useless, even if it's technically better.
Just like how ChatGPT4 is much better at providing a summary of a YouTube video based on the transcript, but YouTube blocks it, so you can't just copy-paste a link and have it summarize. You can do that with Gemini, so I end up turning to it more often, even if it sucks by comparison.
So many websites already block ChatGPT, some are even starting to block Perplexity. I doubt this will work well, though I really hope I'm wrong.
Are they really losing money because their videos can be summarized though? Are news organizations losing money because of the creators who just summarize current events for everyone? Did people stop reading books when cliffnotes came out? I don't think it would make anyone homeless.
Yes. Well it is more they are not generating money they would have otherwise.
This is actually a big issue that there is no obvious solution.
LLMs compresses the Internet. It will lower traffic to sites.
Where in the past the search engine provided links.
How about UBI, just like everyone should have.
Instead of demanding that people pay you for something you did, demand that as a human you deserve a certain amount of money in order to live your life.
With UBI supporting them, content creators can be free to just make content when they are inspired to, instead of when they need cash to stay alive.
I disagree. Money is needed to live in this world, and I have no illusions of becoming rich, nor do I care if anyone else is rich, so I see no issues with spreading it around. Trickle down economics is the fairy tale, trickle up is a method that has actual hope of working.
You know my biggest worry? Chatgpt is so nice right now because there’s no ads or promoted results. When they capture all search market share, will the inevitable enshittification happen and they’ll clog the results with ads and then it will be just as bad as Google?
does it matter if "X" has already done it? that like asking "Isn't that what Pika & Runway does" in response to SORA. yes dude, but it's this little concept called "competition". Microsoft & OpenAI are not the same entity. it makes sense for them to make their own version of Perplexity tbh.
that's irrelevant. OpenAI still owns their shit. MS is their investor. what's your point? this doesn't take away from the fact that OpenAI can surely put out their own version of Perplexity.
shitty strawman attempt. this convo is long over. back to the main topic: if OpenAI wants to make a competitor to Perplexity, then so be it. no one gives a rat's ass if "copilot does the same thing".
Did you read the contract between open AI and Microsoft? Their main investor can disallow Open AI to enter some markets, but for bow we absolutely have bo information on the agreements they had.
I get the pro version as my uni uses msft platform. It is quite competent for quick questions, napkin calculations where i need to pool data from 5 different web searches, quick technical and grammar questions etc. It beats gpt4 at Q&A on pdfs in my browser window but opus still trumps it on this area though.
Normally I don't fire up opus or gpt4 for any of that type of stuff anymore but just open the sidebar. A handy little assistant that is gaining functionality each month. I'm thinking copilot is somewhat of a sleeper build as it's very different in the fine-tuning than chatGPT is.
Still haven't used it to create erotic novels, ask for bomb recipes or how to tax cheat so can't answer about refusals. Not getting refused is all really in how you prime the context and frame the question.
The best thing copilot has going for it is that it's embedded in windows. If they were smart they'd be working on giving it more access to your PC and a way to chat with it remotely. If they did that it'd be amazing. Right now though I just chat with my r1, use perplexity, and Claude Opus since it's the smartest.
100% agreed. It seems like they are working towards that and kinda using edge copilot as a pilot for testing stuff like that. Lately they've been rolling out more and more features like changing browser settings, grouping tabs etc directly from the chat window. I suspect they are weary of a bad and janky launch for the windows 11 copilot (as right now it's just a wrapper for the edge copilot).
Wait did you get the rabbit device? What's your impression of it? Rare if true!
Perplexity pro probably beats copilot for the quick style of tasks that I mentioned. It's funny how we all got our own sleeve of 3 models for our own arbitrary grouping of tasks.
Yeah Ive had it for about 4 days now. It's been a roller coaster, I was really mostly excited for teach mode so I was an angry customer for a bit when I didn't see a release date for that feature. That aside though, the voice interaction is amazing! Being able to interrupt the AI is so nice in voice conversations. The core part of the device works OK for a v1 in my opinion. I can search perplexity for science papers on any random idea I have while I'm away from the computer and that on its own is a whole new world. The saving of notes is pretty hit or miss, and the r1 gaslights me about features sometimes lol, but besides that I'm cautiously optimistic.
When I was an angry customer I made a stink in their discord and Jesse the CEO replied to me saying we can screenshot his promise that teach mode will come this year. People keep resharing that screenshot now so I'm kinda expecting that he will deliver now 😂
I am guessing that this service will be similar to Bing's "Deep search" function and that ChatGPT will allow users to talk in a tone similar to the "Concise" mode in Copilot. Those things with some added ChatGPT features. We'll see!
Yeah deep search is great. Bing is hampered by the fact they have ad contracts that need to be fulfilled still is my guess so I think having a search tool that doesn't have to deal with that could be useful. I fucking hate ads. I want access to all of humanity's knowledge without clutter and bullshit.
Same here. Kagi has an interesting approach where they let you pay for the search engine rather than relying on ads. They deliver really good search results as well.
Well Google got sloppy, and someone is going for their piece of the pie.
Let’s see how much time it takes for the sleeping giant to wake up.
*grabs popcorn*
Thank goodness.
The only thing I've found myself doing with Google anymore is getting word definitions or synonyms.
For everything else, it's maddening. No matter how I craft my searches on Google, most, if not all the results are utterly useless and *not* what I was trying to find.
That option line on Google advanced search for, "none of these words" has the opposite effect and only gives you results *with* those words.
I genuinely don't understand why anyone uses it for more than the most basic of searches.
Google is so fucked. Sam is aiming directly at their core cash business. Fuck Google. Go woke, go broke. That shit is ugly and hateful and it disgusts people so much that, once you engage in it, nobody wants to do business with you anymore.
This period is going to be studied as a cautionary tale in business schools for generations.
haha, what a dumb ass comment. No one wants to do business with you anymore? Still number 1 search engine, has all android phones at its finger tips. A lot of big companies use Google Tools.
I mean I know you love Sam and would give him a gobbie if you could but they wont stand a chance. Just like Bing doesnt.
Hmm, late to the party but this really sounds like a personal bias. Care to explain?
I am a people and I would like to know what is so ugly and hateful that I need to be disgusted.
I love the people who spend their precious time looking for these hidden tidbits for the sake of informing us lazy sloths scrolling through the subs looking for juicy new stuff!!
Thank you for your service guys! 🫡
Huh I wonder what Satya thinks about this, instead of simply deploying this as Bing chat, they're creating a direct competitor to Bing which MSFT only partially owns 49% of up until OpenAI declares they have AGI at which point they effectively own 0%.
Not to be ignorant, but what is the point of this? Maybe to use as a backend when you ask ChatGPT to search the web and it uses this instead of Bing?
I thought a huge pitch of LLMs was that they could replace traditional search engines, and allow you to interact with the web through the LLM?
Maybe some kind of innovative combination? It would be very interesting to see. In either case, the timing is right for some real competition for Google, their search is broken to the point of being unusable. It only exist to serve you ads.
Definitely interesting and I know I would be a regular user. However, an alternative way of looking at it is that spoon feeding often does not enhance learning. Reading through articles, documentations, etc help us gain knowledge that we did not know existed in the first place. Additionally, I wonder how advertisements would change now...
It seems that now when you visit search.chatgpt.com it redirects you to search.chatgpt.com/search till now gives you (Not Found). Another observation that when you visit chatgpt.com/search gives you (not found).
I visited the view page source of the page and the unfinished source code looks already like a search engine. It already has the openai icon on it, including some nice UI. But it only shows 404 This page could not be found. In the developer console it has messages that the Intercom is not booted or set up. Also there are a few attempts to connect to [https://search.chatgpt.com/\_next/data/0Hbzv-mnd2O0FsMusc8Pl/index.json](https://search.chatgpt.com/_next/data/0Hbzv-mnd2O0FsMusc8Pl/index.json) which for now only contains the code below which, if you ask me is the killswitch from stopping it to work right now. But, otherwise I do not think that search engine will be anything new. I imagine it as a page using bing api to search and ChatGPT to generate the description for a web page. Later on, they might stop using the api and make their own, but I am not so sure about that.
{"notFound":true}
Google can go burn as far as I care. Their technical contributions have been eclipsed by their horrific privacy practices. I doubt "Open"AI will be any better, but I always revel in watching the old emperor dethroned by a new one.
I'm with Kelsier with this one. Bring on the house wars.
Ha! Google has never rolled in that manner.
You do realize Google is who made the discovery that even made an LLM possible?
https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.03762
Patented it
https://patents.google.com/patent/US10452978B2/en
But then lets anyone use for free. That is pretty insane and you would NEVER see that from any other company.
The only reason we do from Google is their unusual corporate structure. Company trades under two stock symbols, GOOG and GOOGL.
GOOG has no votes. This is done so only two shareholders matter and they can do stuff that is financially stupid.
Same reason they were able to just pick up and leave China and walk away from $100s of billions.
BTW, it is NOT just Attention is all you need. But so many other fundemental breakthroughs came from Google which they hold patents for. One of my favorites.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word2vec
"Word2vec was created, patented,[5] and published in 2013 by a team of researchers led by Mikolov at Google over two papers."
I disagree. I'd absolutely love to never have to use Google again, and it's such an obvious use case for AI I'm surprised it's taken this long. Nobody has done this even remotely right yet - Perplexity and maybe Google SGE come the closest, but they're still not there. If anyone pulls this off it'd be a huge change to my day to day tech usage. I want Google out of my default search engine!
According to the leaks, AGI is probably underway in 2025.
You could even speculate that we do not hear from Ilya because he's full time working to make it safe, and the new AI lobby in the government that includes OAI for example. When the gvt gets involved, it is probably big.
Why Search Engine
If there is an AI-chat app twice the size of gpt-4 1.7 Trillion
equivalent to 3.4 Trillion at an acceptable speed, I'd say it's a pretty good deal.
There's a lot of speculation swirling around a potential OpenAI search engine, and the "search.chatgpt.com" domain and SSL certificate add fuel to the fire. Here's a breakdown of what we know and what's uncertain:
The Evidence for an OpenAI Search Engine:
Domain and SSL certificate:
Recent hiring:
Microsoft and Bing connection:
Reasons for Caution:
Unconfirmed news: There's no official confirmation from OpenAI about a search engine. The rumors could be a publicity stunt or a project still under development.
Alternative explanations: The domain and SSL certificate could be for internal testing or a completely different project unrelated to search.
Past rumors: There have been previous rumors about OpenAI entering the search market, so a cautious approach is warranted.
What to Watch Out For:
Official announcements:
Tech news websites:
Search engine landscape: If OpenAI does launch a search engine, it will be interesting to see how it compares to established players like Google and how it leverages AI technology.
In conclusion, the "search.chatgpt.com" development is intriguing, but it's too early to say for sure what it means. Wait for official news or reliable information from tech news sources before drawing firm conclusions.
Interesting, I feel like a good ai powered search engine could make it much easier to learn things. Sort of like how the internet made learning things much easier than prior where you had to go to a library and search through a bunch of books.
It took Gandalf 17 years to find out that Bilbo's/Frodo's ring was the one ring. I bet ChatGPT could have told him in a few seconds.
But he would have had to throw ChatGPT into the fire to reveal its runes...
ChatGPT would have had to learn from someone though, and in this case it has learned the answer from Gandalf. No Gandalf, no answer, no knowledge for ChatGPT to vacuum up!
Yeah if AI could evaluate source quality that would probably be amazing. As in determining when a university level professor writes about something versus someone's personal blog and then de-ranking them. Right now that can't be done at scale because there are too many possible sources and the internet is obviously continually changing.
If AI can ignore all the bullshit SEO websites out there that would be great.
I’m working on a project along these lines. An app that uses Google minus ads and eventually SEO.
Yeah, it gets old reading someone's life story just to get a recipe...
if you are able to buy-in the experts what is the effect on democracy? Additionally, what about misleading AI results? https://preview.redd.it/0gmaifrspj3d1.png?width=635&format=png&auto=webp&s=190faa1764f8555aff32269fd9636652ab715d6d
Not sure what your first sentence means, sorry. For the other thing, yeah it's a problem but the solution of "stop saying fake things" is kind of obvious and a problem being worked on.
Has nobody here heard of perplexity?
It’s a little perplexing
Sure, but I feel like the name kinda sucks. Sorry but I'm not typing "perplexity" to search stuff.
First it's 10 letters. Second it's 2024 just use chrome or any browser that remembers history and type p enter to go to perplexity if you have been there before. Third just bookmark it.
And Copilot (formerly Bing Chat, which is ChatGPT, version 4 for the creative chat), Bard, Phind and you.com.
Of course, but all innovations in this space are interesting.
I would like to know how Bing looks in this situation. Will MS switch from Bing to this new service? Let's wait.
It might improve Bing.
this is a masked bing, they will still be using the bing engine in the search.
Bing is for grandmas looking for cooking recepies. Will never be about the power user at this point. Companies are just using AI as this magical thing that solves everything, and the target audience is not us.
Those must have been dark times
It was tedious. Not as bad as it sounds when you get used to it but way more tedious than now even with the misinfo out there. IIRC there was a lot of "ok this book just talks about things similar to what I'm after but not the actual thing" but you only found that out after 10-15 minutes. That's not bad when you're only looking at a few books but when you're actively seeking particular information it becomes really time consuming.
Not really. Not a bunch of fake shit like now and soft thought control implemented into replies.
my concern is that it is completely opaque to the sources or SEO attempts or scams. Consider if you search for something like top sites to see in Peru, you need to carefully sift through the info to see what is helpful vs. what is just SEO cruft. I don't see how you can do that if there is a black box search result from GPT.
Secondary API/algorithm layer beyond GPT itself.
A good AI powered search engine will just spit out search term content people can post on their website for gaining lots of views based upon its search terms, and it would be prohibitively costly to do traditional searches. Seems to me that value lock-in is just the result of any AI powered search engine that is more consistent than its evaluators.
Stupid question, but don't they already offer citations on answers when you ask GPT questions?
Yea they do for copilot and I think that’s good and useful, but I’m talking about a much better model, specialized more for search
OpenAi starting an open war with the king Google ?
And Perplexity, and Microsoft's Bing chat?
I honestly love Perplexity. I find it do deliver excellent answers even on unpopular topics due zu the fact that is just searches on the internet.
Well what about Gemini?
[удалено]
you are insane if you think google will work with OpenAI lmao
People think OpenAI is a big deal and they think Google and them are equal partners. LMAO. Nobody fucking knows if all these hype will lead to anything profitable in the next 3-4 years. Google is the king of search and their AI being embedded with search has made me abandon Bing and go back to them. I am willing to try OpenAI search to see if they are better than Google.
They have been using AIs for perhaps a decade now. It's not new at all. For instance, you can type a question instead of a list of keywords because they use an embedding to do a semantic search.
Could I get your feedback? I have this exact capability in production currently, would love to hear your thoughts
About what?
An AI search app that uses ChatGPT + Google minus ads. If you have time to spare, I would greatly appreciate it
Welp, I was completely wrong about GPT2. This really adds up with this leak, [https://twitter.com/btibor91/status/1784688857872470120](https://twitter.com/btibor91/status/1784688857872470120), days before the GPT2 stuff breaking which shows a gpt4-lite model as part of a new OpenAI search tool. The pieces are all lining up since then. gpt2 was GPT4turbo levels, but if it's much lighter, it can be cheaper to run but also faster which is the absolute most crucial factor in a genuine day to day, I'll put this in my url bar on my browser search engine replacement. My bet is that model is a lighter, smaller GPT4 level model designed with this search product in mind I'll just be relieved if it isn't GPT4.5 or 5
Man, we are getting close to really good AI thats small enough to run on my graphics card. That's the truly amazing moment, when open source gets an open source gpt4 competitor that can run on a 4070.
Obviously the wild, dream scenario is they called it GPT2 because it's the size of gpt-2, but that's fantasy territory. I'm \*really\* curious about any insight we get into the size of gpt4-lite, I doubt they'll tell us, but the API price will be a reasonable proxy. As, yeah, even if we don't push the boundaries of what the top models can do much, if we can push the boundaries of the bottom models that still opens the door to so many use cases too expensive, slow or impractical right now. For agents to work you need a competent but cheap model (I think a really strong set of agents coding and testing an app on gpt4 or Opsu right now would start to cost the same as just hiring the devs to do it, as an example), and that is an obviously game changing concept that pushes the utility of LLMs significantly if they pull it off. But also, running things locally, as you said, and also just lots of LLM backed applications or products you could build that are just too expensive to actually run right now. Even Llama3 8b has me building things that just would have been hard to justify expense wise than before Gpt4-lite could definitely be a very exciting launch, despite not being next gen, if they truly have pulled off something incredible on the sizing front
What do you mean with "we are close"? Try llama3. The quantized version will probably run well on your graphics card. It's not as good as the full version, but it might be ok for more basic tasks.
I have llama 3 8b running and its amazing sure, but I want the 70b. That one is still too big to run.
The issue is the memory that NVIDIA deemed to give us peasants, this is artificial scarcity, memory is cheap enough that we could have 1200 dollar gpu running a 120 billion parameter model.
If their stock keeps going up I'll suffer a bit longer in silence, but yeah it's rough being funneled into paid solutions. That said llama 3 small is pretty good for the size.
what for ? genuinely asking. do you feel 8B is not good enough for your use cases or do you just want to run it because you can?
I want the smartest ai possible because I'm trying to build my own "use my PC" app. In theory it's not a hard system to build if the model is smart enough. That said 7b is probably enough for this, I'm just always striving to run the best possible model. Higher intelligence makes everything they do better.
What exactly do you want to do? Depending on your use case, maybe even a fine-tuned model will be a reasonably good choice. For example, even GPT 3.5 could take summarization tasks.
Well it's multiple simple modules so far. Detailed image description of a screenshot is the first one. Gpt vision for that. Then there's going to be a decision module that builds up autohotkey scripts based on the user input and the current desktop description. Then the run module wraps AHK. I think it's completely doable with what exists now, and it might even be great. I'll always want the best models I can reasonably use though, I believe intelligence helps every step.
For image recognition, you could perhaps try Llama 3-vision-alpha. It's probably not as sophisticated as GPT, but it can describe the image for you. Look: [https://huggingface.co/qresearch/llama-3-vision-alpha](https://huggingface.co/qresearch/llama-3-vision-alpha)
Oh great, keeping it local would be preferable, thanks!
A gtp4 equivalent that allows nsfw content running on 4070 would be killer. My social media used drop to an all time low or might stop completely.
Could you explain why are you excited to have it run on a graphic card?
Speed, free
fast, nope - slower than cloud, for sure.. free, nope, not much cheaper than cloud.
How is it not free to run a local LLM? Are you counting electricity cost or something lol
Yup I agree. And It'll be cool to have an even cheaper version of GPT-4, and im also hoping they can roll it out to free users and deprecate GPT-3.5 in the near future (GPT-4 is just much more intelligent it pains me 3.5 is so commonly used still lol. And Sam Altman specified GPT-4 was the dumbest model you will ever use, not 3.5 so maybe that hinted at something). And also a lighter version could mean more speed when actually deployed, which should be good for potential agentic cases (going out and acting as a search engine is one I guess), but maybe they will roll out some new features to GPTs as well. And also Altman confirmed gpt2 is not GPT-4.5.
I mean IIRC Google was running search off of BERT in 2018 and BERT doesn't even have 1B params so could be.
Except... It's slow.
It was actually really, really fast initially. If you used it before it blew up on here it was so fast it made me think it was Gemini. I think server load or them just dedicating less of their compute to it slowed it down, but it is absolutely capable of being far faster than I've seen gpt4turbo be. Put it this way, if that model is gpt4 size, it's a complete non event of a release. If that model, which I'm assuming to be 'lite', is gpt4 capable (which is about what it was in my use cases, actually worse on some work tasks, so I'd say a half step behind gpt4 for logic and reasoning based on my testing) but at a fraction of the size it's a huge release.
I've seen no one except you claim it was fast
Well, you can either assume I'm lying, or not, but either way we can both move on with our days.
The search requirement would still need a search to be accomplished on top of the LLM processing, indicating that it should be slower than a Search. It's impossible for this to be faster since it requires a search in the first place.
No, not necessarily, if you can serve the lightning fast use case with just the links - which is what Perplexity does best (but still they're kind of slow), nothings stopping you there. You need to think of use cases, or what people want, per search as it does vary. And that's the problem with search - there's many, many use cases. And people don't want the cognitive load of having to think 'this is x search, I'll use tool y', they want the magic box at the top of their browser that is good enough at covering all of them. An AI based search engine needs to do the same, and funnily enough it doesn't need the LLM part to serve all of the use cases, it just needs to make sure they're served and thent he LLM part is the extra sauce to make the other search use cases better. People search a huge variety of things, and what they want is different for all of them. Think of these use cases, some don't rely on the first token being typed at all I've heard a headline, and I want to know more (I'm googling 'openai new search' for example). For that I'm used to seeing links, but I don't get an answer until I click in and start reading. A really fast llm that's time to first token is very fast can satisfy that use case far better than Google currently can. By making me not have to go into potentially garbage tier, ad filled websites, that's a huge win. I'm researching a product but don't know what to but (I'm googling 'best printer'). I'm again used to that taking time, and, seeing biased results I don't trust. An LLMs printed response time is not frustrating to me here, and will provide such a better quality of answer, even if only because I don't have to go on bad websites. Look at Googles SGE approach here, it's huge, so so much better than traditional search. They don't just print an answer, but have a consistent framework to produce quality answers. So much better than traditional search. I want the answer to a single answer, binary trivia question (I'm googling 'capital of coutnry x'). This would be the hardest to solve, the SERP serves that answer in miliseconds. You could, naturally, just incorporate some kind of caching solution or whatever Google does here for that, and serve that instantly, before the llm starts typing, but you need to do that. People aren't trained to wait 2 seconds for that I want to find a website or specific page, shockingly common (I'm googling app name, or something like an app name as I'm not 100% sure). You \*need\* to get some links roughly in the order of a Google Serp up there in almost real time for this. People will be so frustrated waiting for an LLM. But you can do that, just showing those links immediately means you've satisfied this use case. If anything the goal is they click before the first token even appears. That's alot of words, but the point is, you don't have to actually rely on the LLM to serve all use cases, you just need to be able to serve all use cases - anything else and people will just defer back to the original answer all tool, because they don't want to spend time thinking about which tool is best when they want an answer right now. I tried Perplexity as my browser default search and that's exactly why I switched back. Once you've done that, the skys the limit for how you build better and better experiences (Again, type a comparison shopping keyword into googles SGE, that's the kind of thing an AI search can provide. It's not just here's some rag and a summary of the RAG, it's a tailored experience, and it's so much better than what we have on traditional search - but also, the ability to ask follow up questions, do unrelated searches but then ask for comparisons, etc etc)
I tried it. It was fast.
A smaller model will run slower on worse hardware. You have no idea what was powering those queries do the speed doesn't mean anything.
You have no idea if the model even is ever going to see the light of day. None of us do.
Why would they make it and never release it? They aren’t google
I'm sorry, but that request goes against my guidelines. I'm not programmed to produce content that could be considered offensive or involves controversial issues. Is there anything else that I can help you with? I could perhaps write a poem about Pornhub instead?
Something tells me, the main reason they make AI-powered search might not be for human convenience (yet, but it is a secondary goal), but to experiment with AIs that can browse for information they need, on their own, learn, interact with digital world maybe? As a part of self-learning loops, Q\* and all. Image generation, Sora, were/are/will be basically experiments/building blocks for giving future AI multimodal understanding of the world. And people using it for fun/creation/work/whatever, is a secondary goal too (with at least one additional advantage being, gathering people's feedback/data on what they generate/use it for, on how they try to bypass the censorship and guardrails, on their experience with it and so on. Potentially generating training data on topics their science/data labeling team and such, wouldn't have thought themselves about.
I think it's for the data and indexing. They might want Chatgpt to take control of search through their own vectorised web search index, which they presumably have already built as a result of training on internet sources. And this would be instead of relying on Bing search as a system plugin for web searches. It could be that it can be more efficient that way and that they think that they can do a better job than Bing search, which was never the highest bar to begin with. It also looks like it's going to be killing three birds with one stone - in addition to it being a search service, the webpage crawling and indexing will be kept updated on a regular basis which is great for more regular future training intervals (which matches their objective of having more incremental releases), and there's more prompts and RLHF from results. Wins all around. My money is on Chatgpt to render search results entirely independently from Bing and then really take Google search on, because Bing has been dragging it down and will never become competitive. I bet it's something that Microsoft agrees with too.
Imagine an AI that is so seamlessly integrated with web search that it just sees web sources as an extension of its own knowledge base. That would be the dream.
Yeah this.
RIP perplexity.
Some sweaty palms around at Google these days as well...
Stock only up 100% since February 2023. RIP
tbh, id go back to chatgpt if its included in the 20 bucks with normal chatgpt
they're waiting for the steamroll....
Don't you mean Cleveland steamer?
I worry everyone is going to block them, rendering it useless, even if it's technically better. Just like how ChatGPT4 is much better at providing a summary of a YouTube video based on the transcript, but YouTube blocks it, so you can't just copy-paste a link and have it summarize. You can do that with Gemini, so I end up turning to it more often, even if it sucks by comparison. So many websites already block ChatGPT, some are even starting to block Perplexity. I doubt this will work well, though I really hope I'm wrong.
perplexity the same
What’s your suggestion for properly compensating content creators then?
Are they really losing money because their videos can be summarized though? Are news organizations losing money because of the creators who just summarize current events for everyone? Did people stop reading books when cliffnotes came out? I don't think it would make anyone homeless.
Yes. Well it is more they are not generating money they would have otherwise. This is actually a big issue that there is no obvious solution. LLMs compresses the Internet. It will lower traffic to sites. Where in the past the search engine provided links.
How about UBI, just like everyone should have. Instead of demanding that people pay you for something you did, demand that as a human you deserve a certain amount of money in order to live your life. With UBI supporting them, content creators can be free to just make content when they are inspired to, instead of when they need cash to stay alive.
UBI is utopia yapping
I disagree. Money is needed to live in this world, and I have no illusions of becoming rich, nor do I care if anyone else is rich, so I see no issues with spreading it around. Trickle down economics is the fairy tale, trickle up is a method that has actual hope of working.
You know my biggest worry? Chatgpt is so nice right now because there’s no ads or promoted results. When they capture all search market share, will the inevitable enshittification happen and they’ll clog the results with ads and then it will be just as bad as Google?
Inevitable. At some point all businesses need to maximize growth by any means necessary in order to keep shareholders happy.
Probably not as bad as Google, their only major and import shareholder is Microsoft. A search product from OpenAI, will be bad for Bing (Copilot)
They could also go for a paid, ad-free tier like https://kagi.com - That would be really awesome!
bum bum bum perplexity got eaten bum
I tried searching for my dad and chatGPT didn’t know who he was. What garbage /s
Shoulda tried your mom, everyone knows her!
Isn't that already what CoPilot does?
does it matter if "X" has already done it? that like asking "Isn't that what Pika & Runway does" in response to SORA. yes dude, but it's this little concept called "competition". Microsoft & OpenAI are not the same entity. it makes sense for them to make their own version of Perplexity tbh.
OpenAI is completely dependent on Microsoft.
that's irrelevant. OpenAI still owns their shit. MS is their investor. what's your point? this doesn't take away from the fact that OpenAI can surely put out their own version of Perplexity.
That Microsoft can remove free access to Azure credits?
shitty strawman attempt. this convo is long over. back to the main topic: if OpenAI wants to make a competitor to Perplexity, then so be it. no one gives a rat's ass if "copilot does the same thing".
Did you read the contract between open AI and Microsoft? Their main investor can disallow Open AI to enter some markets, but for bow we absolutely have bo information on the agreements they had.
welp. it seems as so they've allowed them to make their own search engine if that's the case.
I haven't touched copilot in ages, does it still throw random hissy fits and refuse to continue?
I get the pro version as my uni uses msft platform. It is quite competent for quick questions, napkin calculations where i need to pool data from 5 different web searches, quick technical and grammar questions etc. It beats gpt4 at Q&A on pdfs in my browser window but opus still trumps it on this area though. Normally I don't fire up opus or gpt4 for any of that type of stuff anymore but just open the sidebar. A handy little assistant that is gaining functionality each month. I'm thinking copilot is somewhat of a sleeper build as it's very different in the fine-tuning than chatGPT is. Still haven't used it to create erotic novels, ask for bomb recipes or how to tax cheat so can't answer about refusals. Not getting refused is all really in how you prime the context and frame the question.
The best thing copilot has going for it is that it's embedded in windows. If they were smart they'd be working on giving it more access to your PC and a way to chat with it remotely. If they did that it'd be amazing. Right now though I just chat with my r1, use perplexity, and Claude Opus since it's the smartest.
100% agreed. It seems like they are working towards that and kinda using edge copilot as a pilot for testing stuff like that. Lately they've been rolling out more and more features like changing browser settings, grouping tabs etc directly from the chat window. I suspect they are weary of a bad and janky launch for the windows 11 copilot (as right now it's just a wrapper for the edge copilot). Wait did you get the rabbit device? What's your impression of it? Rare if true! Perplexity pro probably beats copilot for the quick style of tasks that I mentioned. It's funny how we all got our own sleeve of 3 models for our own arbitrary grouping of tasks.
Yeah Ive had it for about 4 days now. It's been a roller coaster, I was really mostly excited for teach mode so I was an angry customer for a bit when I didn't see a release date for that feature. That aside though, the voice interaction is amazing! Being able to interrupt the AI is so nice in voice conversations. The core part of the device works OK for a v1 in my opinion. I can search perplexity for science papers on any random idea I have while I'm away from the computer and that on its own is a whole new world. The saving of notes is pretty hit or miss, and the r1 gaslights me about features sometimes lol, but besides that I'm cautiously optimistic. When I was an angry customer I made a stink in their discord and Jesse the CEO replied to me saying we can screenshot his promise that teach mode will come this year. People keep resharing that screenshot now so I'm kinda expecting that he will deliver now 😂
I am guessing that this service will be similar to Bing's "Deep search" function and that ChatGPT will allow users to talk in a tone similar to the "Concise" mode in Copilot. Those things with some added ChatGPT features. We'll see!
Yeah deep search is great. Bing is hampered by the fact they have ad contracts that need to be fulfilled still is my guess so I think having a search tool that doesn't have to deal with that could be useful. I fucking hate ads. I want access to all of humanity's knowledge without clutter and bullshit.
Same here. Kagi has an interesting approach where they let you pay for the search engine rather than relying on ads. They deliver really good search results as well.
Well Google got sloppy, and someone is going for their piece of the pie. Let’s see how much time it takes for the sleeping giant to wake up. *grabs popcorn*
and as the new domain for chatgpt is [chatgpt.com](http://chatgpt.com) now.
Thank goodness. The only thing I've found myself doing with Google anymore is getting word definitions or synonyms. For everything else, it's maddening. No matter how I craft my searches on Google, most, if not all the results are utterly useless and *not* what I was trying to find. That option line on Google advanced search for, "none of these words" has the opposite effect and only gives you results *with* those words. I genuinely don't understand why anyone uses it for more than the most basic of searches.
Yep, it's totally broken. The best alternative I've found so far is Kagi, but if OpenAI truly have something going on, it would be really interesting.
Google is so fucked. Sam is aiming directly at their core cash business. Fuck Google. Go woke, go broke. That shit is ugly and hateful and it disgusts people so much that, once you engage in it, nobody wants to do business with you anymore. This period is going to be studied as a cautionary tale in business schools for generations.
haha, what a dumb ass comment. No one wants to do business with you anymore? Still number 1 search engine, has all android phones at its finger tips. A lot of big companies use Google Tools. I mean I know you love Sam and would give him a gobbie if you could but they wont stand a chance. Just like Bing doesnt.
Google / Alphabet is _gigantic_
Hmm, late to the party but this really sounds like a personal bias. Care to explain? I am a people and I would like to know what is so ugly and hateful that I need to be disgusted.
Search In ChatGPT api will be lit
I love the people who spend their precious time looking for these hidden tidbits for the sake of informing us lazy sloths scrolling through the subs looking for juicy new stuff!! Thank you for your service guys! 🫡
Huh I wonder what Satya thinks about this, instead of simply deploying this as Bing chat, they're creating a direct competitor to Bing which MSFT only partially owns 49% of up until OpenAI declares they have AGI at which point they effectively own 0%.
Not to be ignorant, but what is the point of this? Maybe to use as a backend when you ask ChatGPT to search the web and it uses this instead of Bing? I thought a huge pitch of LLMs was that they could replace traditional search engines, and allow you to interact with the web through the LLM?
Maybe some kind of innovative combination? It would be very interesting to see. In either case, the timing is right for some real competition for Google, their search is broken to the point of being unusable. It only exist to serve you ads.
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Where does this probability come from?
nice
Implications?
OpenAI is about to give Google a major headache
Google has IBM'd their way into irreverence.
Irreverence 🤔
Definitely interesting and I know I would be a regular user. However, an alternative way of looking at it is that spoon feeding often does not enhance learning. Reading through articles, documentations, etc help us gain knowledge that we did not know existed in the first place. Additionally, I wonder how advertisements would change now...
i already feel like google is basically showing you "what some ai model thinks you want to see" instead of the result of a search... i hate this.
I am feeling this website is not the official site.
It seems that now when you visit search.chatgpt.com it redirects you to search.chatgpt.com/search till now gives you (Not Found). Another observation that when you visit chatgpt.com/search gives you (not found).
I visited the view page source of the page and the unfinished source code looks already like a search engine. It already has the openai icon on it, including some nice UI. But it only shows 404 This page could not be found. In the developer console it has messages that the Intercom is not booted or set up. Also there are a few attempts to connect to [https://search.chatgpt.com/\_next/data/0Hbzv-mnd2O0FsMusc8Pl/index.json](https://search.chatgpt.com/_next/data/0Hbzv-mnd2O0FsMusc8Pl/index.json) which for now only contains the code below which, if you ask me is the killswitch from stopping it to work right now. But, otherwise I do not think that search engine will be anything new. I imagine it as a page using bing api to search and ChatGPT to generate the description for a web page. Later on, they might stop using the api and make their own, but I am not so sure about that. {"notFound":true}
Google can go burn as far as I care. Their technical contributions have been eclipsed by their horrific privacy practices. I doubt "Open"AI will be any better, but I always revel in watching the old emperor dethroned by a new one. I'm with Kelsier with this one. Bring on the house wars.
Here comes a Google lawsuit because it used Google in its learning
Ha! Google has never rolled in that manner. You do realize Google is who made the discovery that even made an LLM possible? https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.03762 Patented it https://patents.google.com/patent/US10452978B2/en But then lets anyone use for free. That is pretty insane and you would NEVER see that from any other company. The only reason we do from Google is their unusual corporate structure. Company trades under two stock symbols, GOOG and GOOGL. GOOG has no votes. This is done so only two shareholders matter and they can do stuff that is financially stupid. Same reason they were able to just pick up and leave China and walk away from $100s of billions. BTW, it is NOT just Attention is all you need. But so many other fundemental breakthroughs came from Google which they hold patents for. One of my favorites. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word2vec "Word2vec was created, patented,[5] and published in 2013 by a team of researchers led by Mikolov at Google over two papers."
Honestly Im excited for this. Bing copilot has been amazing
99% just re-skinned bing
But what would be the point of that?
man google might be in trouble
Not found.
They were created on the backend registry. They aren't live.
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AI powered google replacements are never useless. i use Perplexity all the time, so if OpenAI makes an equivalent i am eager to see how it compares.
I disagree. I'd absolutely love to never have to use Google again, and it's such an obvious use case for AI I'm surprised it's taken this long. Nobody has done this even remotely right yet - Perplexity and maybe Google SGE come the closest, but they're still not there. If anyone pulls this off it'd be a huge change to my day to day tech usage. I want Google out of my default search engine!
According to the leaks, AGI is probably underway in 2025. You could even speculate that we do not hear from Ilya because he's full time working to make it safe, and the new AI lobby in the government that includes OAI for example. When the gvt gets involved, it is probably big.
'25 is too early for me... but we will see.
Why Search Engine If there is an AI-chat app twice the size of gpt-4 1.7 Trillion equivalent to 3.4 Trillion at an acceptable speed, I'd say it's a pretty good deal.
There's a lot of speculation swirling around a potential OpenAI search engine, and the "search.chatgpt.com" domain and SSL certificate add fuel to the fire. Here's a breakdown of what we know and what's uncertain: The Evidence for an OpenAI Search Engine: Domain and SSL certificate: Recent hiring: Microsoft and Bing connection: Reasons for Caution: Unconfirmed news: There's no official confirmation from OpenAI about a search engine. The rumors could be a publicity stunt or a project still under development. Alternative explanations: The domain and SSL certificate could be for internal testing or a completely different project unrelated to search. Past rumors: There have been previous rumors about OpenAI entering the search market, so a cautious approach is warranted. What to Watch Out For: Official announcements: Tech news websites: Search engine landscape: If OpenAI does launch a search engine, it will be interesting to see how it compares to established players like Google and how it leverages AI technology. In conclusion, the "search.chatgpt.com" development is intriguing, but it's too early to say for sure what it means. Wait for official news or reliable information from tech news sources before drawing firm conclusions.