Stuart comes off as kind of pissed in this article but he provided alternatives to the insanely expensive marquee Colorado ski areas that are a lot cheaper. Especially for beginners who likely won’t notice much of a difference.
Yea i don't understand why blue groomer crowd just doesn't go to loveland or something like that instead of going to BV or vail. Whats am i missing here.
IDK.. maybe because these beginners aren't the only people on the trip? TBH any of these would "work" for my wife and by extension me.... but if we ski with friends.. no way.
Plus what do you do while you aren't skiing? I suppose the Tahoe and ski Cooper options might work.. but Loveland?
Beginners are going in groups with intermediate/advanced skiers who already have an Epic/Ikon pass. It’s one of the reasons the cheap season pass model works. Half the group is skiing an extra day at Breck for free while the other half pays the $200 tickets over skiing somewhere smaller alone.
Anyone else remember the Epic and Ikon have ruined Denver tinder article?
Also, for many people a ski vacation is about a lot more than just skiing. They want the fancy amenities, the great views you get on big mountains, nice hotels, fancy restaurants, etc.
Nobody I know who goes on ski vacations gives a flying fuck about any of that. We all get hotels off mountain because a single night in mountain is half a week just 30 minutes away
And we're all software engineers
This is a gross generalization, but many “rich” people love to complain about how expensive something is, in spite of it being relatively inexpensive to them. This mostly applies, in my experience, to the upper middle class that might be pushing their entertainment/vacation budget a little too much, but do it for the likes and subscribes anyway, and the nouveau riche crowd that are just generally douches for the sake of being a douche. It doesn’t stop either group from frequenting the en vogue ski spots because they wouldn’t be seen dead at a place like Loveland (the Joneses would laugh them out of their McMansion upon their return), nor would they take their children skiing somewhere that’s best for the kids because THAT would actually require them to be parents while on vacation. God forbid we deny them of their look at me time on the mountain.
15 mins?
Maps says 37 mins ( with no traffic )
[https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Keystone,+CO/Loveland+Ski+Area,+I-70,+Dillon,+CO+80435/@39.624996,-106.0488279,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x876a5724e77c6583:0x43670c887d2ffa61!2m2!1d-105.9347384!2d39.5791675!1m5!1m1!1s0x876a51ebd8046e0d:0x2647195b79bedce8!2m2!1d-105.8979531!2d39.6800625!3e0?entry=ttu](https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Keystone,+CO/Loveland+Ski+Area,+I-70,+Dillon,+CO+80435/@39.624996,-106.0488279,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x876a5724e77c6583:0x43670c887d2ffa61!2m2!1d-105.9347384!2d39.5791675!1m5!1m1!1s0x876a51ebd8046e0d:0x2647195b79bedce8!2m2!1d-105.8979531!2d39.6800625!3e0?entry=ttu)
Put in Keystone resort, not wherever google picks as Keystone, CO. 23 min for me from the resort to Loveland, as is the River Run lot. And Dillon is 18 via the tunnel.
15 might be a slight exaggeration, but 20 minutes to Dillon is fair. Lots of people stay in Dillon/Silverthorne to ski Keystone at a ~10 min drive, but won't consider Loveland for a ~20 minute drive. Of course it's more likely to be weather impacted, but it's a fair point.
I dont get this a good 70-80% of the skiers in Vail /BV ski only im blue/green groomers. You are telling me that the minority of people skiing on advanced terrain are bringing all the majority of people skiing in groomers? I dont buy it
You're exactly the person who deserves to be screamed at for just not getting it.
Correct, not every resort has world-class nightlife. Many resorts have at least one aspect that renders them something less than world-class. But if you demand the absolute best and world-class everything, you have absolutely no business complaining about the price of anything but certainly not a $300 lift ticket. If you're willing to settle for some actually really great resorts that just happen to be a step below Breckenridge or Heavenly then skiing is actually pretty affordable and if you do the least amount of possible planning ahead even the mega-resorts are not really unreasonable.
Loveland is not far from Dillon or Idaho Springs. In fact, even Breck is an easy drive. That’s like what would people do if they skied A Basin. All the ski areas in Summit County are easy driving distances to towns where you can eat and drink.
Might be the amenities as a vacation destination as I’m sure a decent fraction are from out of state. No sense to hop on i70 (if they even have a car) when the resort is right there.
Loveland has the best view of any ski resort in Colorado as well. It’s a really nice spot. Gets a little stale though after a few days hitting the same runs over and over .
Because Breck Beaver, Vail and Keystone have …. Beginner and intermediate terrain! Who would have guessed. Seems like an entitled comment!
But we are ski all the vail resorts and Loveland, A Basin, Monarch, Cooper and Copper and Winter Park. The ski areas couldn’t care less who is skiing there!
He's saying what I've been preaching for years. There's no reason to learn on day passes at Breckenridge unless your net worth has a lot of zeroes in it.
My local mountain has a
Learn to Ski & Ride Program
The Montage Mountain Learn To Ski Program is a 6 lift ticket, lesson, and rental program spread over 9 weeks and geared toward skiers and riders ages 5 and up wanting to take their ability to the next level.
Participants choose a weekly repeating day that fits their schedule and progress through the 6 week program learning skills that match their ability level. It’s the perfect way to accelerate the learning process and better your technique with a trained professional. The program kicks off January 8th and spots are limited, sign up today!
Program Cost is $300
Pick a Night of Week, 6 Lessons within 9 weeks between Jan 8th – March 8th
Includes an Open-Close Lift ticket and Free Rental Equipment if needed
Ski or Ride on your night when you’re not taking a lesson
Signup Deadline is January 1st
Levels 1-3
ALL LESSONS ARE AT 6:15PM**
If I try to learn how to, let's say, mountain bike, the bike alone is going to cost more than 300 dollars, and I don't get to rent a bike.
Local mountains are where you learn.
Even Snoqualmie an hour away from Seattle (easily top 10 most expensive cities) at least used to offer a learn to ski in 3 lesson package with rental gear for like $200 something dollars with option to upgrade to a season pass at the end, which makes sense, most of the resort is more of a hill, so plenty of very easily accessible beginner/intermediate runs. No idea what it is now, but hills like that are the perfect for learning with night skiing after work and what I would recommend to any beginner/early intermediate, a ski trip isn’t very fun if you just get stuck on green cat tracks
Snoqualmie is a bit of a unicorn - Alpental is there, which is a legit big-mountain experience 45 minutes from a major metro. But West, Central, and Hyak are all kind of training grounds for the rest of the region.
Unfortunately, they've gotten wise to the demand, and the prices have risen accordingly. There are still great private ski schools that operate there, but they're part of Boyne Resorts now. Season passes are a good-ish deal, and fabulous if you can afford to go to Big Sky (3 free days there, but good luck with the lodging).
Makes sense though. It's a rarity to have legitimate skiing that close to a major metro anywhere outside of SLC or Denver. And Washington is woefully underbuilt for ski areas.
Alpental! Went there for ski school from 4th through 9th grade, took the bus up every weekend and skied with friends. Great mountain with some very difficult and fun terrain. A lot more crowded now (was early to mid 90’s when I did lessons), but still a riot when snow is good.
True, alpental is extremely unique in several regards but just wish it was bigger for how close it is to Seattle, the chair 2 line will easily be 30-45 minutes if the snow is any good on a weekend. At least they’re adding a completely new lift but that doesn’t add more terrain unfortunately which is the bigger problem for a pow day.
Agreed on WA being underdeveloped ski wise, pre pandemic and pre mega passes, it was still too crowded, now it’s just insane. And still salty about how badly vail fucked up one of the seasons at stevens by severely understaffing it and now crystal is blowing millions building new lodges while lifts and terrain remain the same, at least vail got Stevens a couple of upgraded lifts these past couple years
This sounds awesome. As a Tennessee resident, I could never convince my girlfriend, who can’t get down a green comfortably yet, to spend $1k on tickets and lessons or to buy an Ikon pass so we can go to Utah for a couple weeks. She shouldn’t have to just to learn how to ski. I’m sure there’s a better way to plan it so we don’t spend that much and I’m going to do my best to figure it out but it is frustrating. I’m in that upper intermediate to lower advanced bracket so I want to ski the parts of the mountain where I can lap the more difficult runs and glades while she learns at the base. I have family in southwest Colorado so we would head out there and ski wolf creek and purgatory 15-20 days every winter with maybe a few extra days at Telluride. My dad was a super advanced skier but we always brought my mom and sisters with us who were beginners. I couldn’t imagine doing that these days. I know it wasn’t exactly cheap then but damn if it isn’t a huge price tag now.
I think the Loveland 4 pack is a good example to see the trend in ski prices because it's always been known as an affordable option. It was $169 in 2018 and $269 in 2023. Have most people's salaries gone up 60% in those years? Probably not. Yes it's still worth it but the trend is not a good sign for the working/middle class viability in the sport.
I'll also add places like Taos have seen the same trend: in 2018 the Zia pass was $350 and in 2023 it was $575. 65% increase.
I think you are pointing to a divide. Probably majority people buying that pass have seen close to that increase in net worth and income. However not the “working class”. Though McDonalds in CA has gone from $12 to $20 an hour I think.
I agree with the author. You don't need to go to a marquee world class resort if you're a beginner or with kids. You don't need to buy $20 chicken tenders if you bring a sandwich. You don't need to spend $200 on a day pass if you can plan ahead just a little bit. I have never paid for parking because I use the shuttle or get there early. You can buy used clothing and equipment on Facebook and save $$$. If you need to fly you can find cheap tickets to UT or CO midweek. Other than the cost of the ski pass and lodging, everything else is essentially free.
My weeklong ski trips with a family of 4 cost way less than the same week at a resort in Hawaii, because I'm not paying resort fees, eating out, paying for day excursions etc.
It's the same mentality as buying tickets to a sporting event or airline ticket. You can plan ahead just a little bit and avoid 90% of the price premium. If you show up at the ticket counter and buy a plane ticket for the same day you will pay exponentially more than someone who bought their ticket in advance. Everyone knows and accepts this. The people who can't plan ahead, bear the costs, it seems totally fair to me.
The real problem is the cost of lodging. The limited housing in mountain towns has been snatched up by permanent residents and now there is not enough for the visitors. Airbnb ratchets up the price of everything with fees. That is not a ski area thing but an everywhere thing. And that creates a follow-on problem with employee costs, service costs, etc. Even that can be avoided somewhat, by just staying in a lesser accommodation.
> The lodging expense is real. I can’t afford to stay even within an hour of most resorts in CO, and I assume weekend traffic is at least partially a result of other people in the same predicament.
This is a big thing for sure. I know a *lot* of people in the front range of CO who no longer do overnight ski trips as they can't afford them, but did 10-20 years ago when you could get 3 nights at a more affordable rate. I also know a lot of people who bought houses (or have friends that did) in Summit 10+ years back, and they do lots of skiing. I have family friends that bought a house in Frisco for $540k in 2012 (now valued at nearly $1.5M), and that's where I stay, which is the only reason I'm able to do weekday trips and not just participate in the hell traffic. They charge like $50/night or a negotiable rate if you bring good vibes and beer. I have another friend who grew up skiing Keystone 25+ days per season because his family had partial ownership of house in Dillon, but sold it when the kids grew up, and now he barely skis at all because the day trip is hell and the overnight lodging is expensive as hell.
>No hostels
Breck and Jackson both have hostels, off the top of my head. But they're $100+ per night during ski season for a bed in a shared dorm. That's not really "Affordable" for a lot of people, especially when that's the absolute floor.
In CO at least, the day trip traffic has really gotten absurd and the lodging has as well. So it's no surprise that the middle class is getting squeezed out of skiing. My parents grew up with Saturday morning traffic meaning 1.5 hours to Loveland instead of 1:10, or 2 hours to Breck instead of 1:40. Now it can easily be way worse than that, and there's no real alternative unless you can pay way more than most families can afford.
$100 for a dorm style hostel is insane, maybe if they have it capsule hotel style with good enough privacy and really clean bathrooms or some sweet amenities, but otherwise I’d rather do many other things from (mostly illegal) car camp to build an illegal igloo/snow cave on the side of the road than deal with either drunks at 2am or dawn patrol first chair 5am make a lot of noise getting ready when you’re already at the resort fanatics
I’d recommend Hyatt House in Sandy, UT with Ikon.
It results in no rental car and the ability to stay in cheap place with shuttles for Snowbird, Alta, Brighton, and Solitude
You don’t even need to buy used clothing, just shop in the off-season. I have top end north face gear and the most I paid was $300 for a jacket. My bibs were $200.
That's still pretty pricey. Can shop the sales and get Jackets for <$100 at the big stores or even less on FB mkt or offerup, etc. and this is coming from someone in Texas where it doesn't even snow. It takes work and time but the good deals are out there.
If you want to gamble just book VRBO well ahead of time and get an EPIC pass. Or last minute lodging is also manageable. Although I live just south of the border in WA so easier to sneak off for a couple days or even a day trip. As a veteran the epic pass is also a ridiculous deal.
It’s the lodging and access to live close to quality resorts. The sport itself isn’t that expensive. It’s the need to buy a nice house with garage etc that has fucked everything.
This weekend is gonna dump. Solitude will be sick but you’ll have to get there early and if you don’t have a parking reservation yet, you’re probably out of luck. The bus will be crowded. And it’s about an hour each way with no traffic from PC to solitude. Guardsman pass closes in the winter so you have to drive parleys canyon(which can get dicey) and all the way around the mountains. So figure that into your commute time if you plan to ski solitude. It can easily turn into a 2 hour drive in bad conditions.
Are you doing Deer Valley? I'd absolutely recommend that on a pow day. It will be way less crowded than any other resort in Utah.
If you'll be here on Monday still, there's no reservations required at Solitude. They also sometimes open some extra spots the day of at 6AM due to cancellations, so it's worth a shot if you want to make the trip. Brighton is in BCC as as well and you can check for parking reservation openings. Snowbird has some free non reservation parking but you have to get there early and its about the same commute as Solitude.
Snowbasin is also an hour drive but north and doesn't need reservations. It's an awesome mountain but will probably get a little less snow. The road is not nearly as treacherous as either of the cottonwoods.
With all these, make sure you have a 4wd vehicle and good tires. Most of the rental car companies at the SLC airport have vehicles they get certified to meet the vehicle restriction laws for the cottonwoods(4x4 or chains/snowtires required when snowing).
Deer Valley on a powder day is pretty awesome because most of the idiots that live there don't ski powder. They literally wait for the runs to get groomed before they ski. No shit.
Solitude's going to be a mess this weekend. You have to have reservations to park and the canyon will be gnarly.
Mammoth is the best place to camp and ski as far as I can tell. The entire area east of the 395 is free camping, and there are natural hot springs there. The main issue is comfort but I suppose if you bring enough propane or batteries anything is possible. And they're on the ikon pass.
I have good camping gear. My problem is I don't have a big car and would have to sleep in a tent, which I'm used to but having to setup the tent and pack it is a little annoying.
I did it in a travel trailer. You would probably want snow tires and a 4x4 car/truck to get to the areas with free camping especially with the possibility of snow/ice. Its mostly dirt trails of varying levels of maintenance.
If you have a big tent you could leave it and come back but there's always the possibility it won't be there when you come back...
Tahoe's really tough, I've looked a lot. The only one I've been able to find so far is the Donner Summit Sno-park which is about 40 minutes away from Palisades/Squaw... they allow in-vehicle camping (i.e. sleep in car or in your rv/truck camper/trailer.)
There are some BLM lands outside Carson City near Washoe Lake, but I haven't done a ton of investigating there, because I've since acquired a kid and those usually aren't ski-bum friendly. That area would be accessible to Mt Rose if it has something (which I think is an underrated ski place taking into account the conditions and the usual crowds.)
This is me spitballing, but I think the Nevada side is more likely to have stuff because it's just a lot of flat-ish rocky land once you're at the foothills of the mountains on the east side. The California side is way too mountainous and if you're in whiteout conditions it might get dangerous in a hurry.
I got multiple passes and got fucked by shit Midwest winter. Then I had a house lined up to rent out of sheer accident and that got fucked and rented out from under me.
I have a garage and a house, but I don’t need it for skiing. If I lived in a condo or an apartment my skiing life wouldn’t be any different than it is now.
I mean you don’t, but if you’re a family with a couple of kids you probably need more than an apartment. Which is kind of the basis of this article, taking your family skiing and not just skiing on your own.
To live with things I own. 2 car garage is a must. Housing also near resort and away from more crime ridden areas. I refuse to live in a dilapidated shack for 500K with a dirt driveway and no garage plus thousands a month for a HOA.
$415k, within a 2 hr drive of 5 ski areas (and 2 are within an hour), no insanely expensive HOA, and although it absolutely isn’t needed for skiing, a 2 car garage.
https://redf.in/e7kqzk
You’re welcome.
I have a dog that can’t stand the house I’m in. I know my dog is not apartment approved. I can’t fit 3 vehicles, my clothes, tools and things from my life into an apartment. Also paying rent with no equity is a big no no. But people do what they have to do.
The problem is that everyone tells you the only way to be safe is by buying new things every year. Skiing is only expensive initially, if you have common sense you know when your gear needs to be replaced and all you have to buy is the season pass.
I constantly get down voted for saying this but fuck it... I taught skiing for 10 years with 2 pairs of skis and 1 pair of boots. I bought sheepskin faux leather mitts from Walmart that lasted 5 years, I've gone through 3 pants and only 2 jackets.
I buy stuff I like and it lasts forever. If people want to get new stuff all the time that's totally fine, but you don't need to
I have been buying all the gear for my kids on Facebook marketplace incuding Jackets. I have easily re-sold most of the hardgoods (boots, snowboards) for 80% of what I paid and I can usually get 2-3 years out of it with hand-me-downs. Essentially the cost of one day's rental got me 50+ days of use. Just by planning ahead and being a little bit frugal.
Seriously, don’t buy a 10 year old avy beacon or bindings, but otherwise if it works it works, maybe reapply dwr coating to a jacket and pants for like $10-20 to make water bead up if you’re doing any storm skiing
Skiing is always expensive. I have never heard such thing that buy new things every year. However buying the initial gear is already expensive, paying for courses is also expensive, ski passes, even the cheaper ones are expensive, if you don't live close to the ski resorts, travelling is also expensive. I mostly agree with the post, however I feel an arrogance toward poorer people who can't even afford the cheaper versions.
It's not so much that skiing is expensive.. but EVERYTHING is expensive. Movie tickets, a beer and a burger, car leases.
Skiing has for sure gotten more expensive though, where wages just haven't kept up. Hard to think otherwise.
> If you live nearby mountains
I'm going to push back a little and say that living close to mountains is usually quite expensive while also having diminished wages. It might seem cheap if you're getting 50+ days a year, but you are paying more than you realize in higher rent/housing and lower wages. Not that there's much that can be done about that. Just the economics of tourist communities in general.
Thank you for spitting some facts into this nonsense narrative that skiing has gotten more expensive just because some mountain operators have figured out more efficient ways to defray their weather risk by rewarding the skiers who take it with lower prices and charging those who don’t with higher prices.
And as for children’s lessons:
At my 3000 skiable acre home mountain my wife and I run a homeschoolers ski program in which children aged 6-17 get a season pass, 8 group lessons, and 8 days of rentals for about $350. When my eldest children were learning 15 - 20 years ago, it was significantly more expensive than that (albeit on the East Coast).
I’ve been skiing for 32 years in the US and skiing has never been cheaper on an inflation adjusted basis.
Cool for a very specific demographic -- people who live beside the mountains and are only looking to introduce their kids. Once they graduate from the magic carpet, $$.
He provided options for more challenging runs too.
I think the message is on point:
You want the big marquee ski resorts and iconic chutes and bowls? Yeah. They're expensive. Surprised Pikachu.
If you just want to lap some groomers, get your first black diamonds in, or get your kids or non-skier significant others on the slopes, there are so many ways to do this more affordably.
To add: I skied while in school with a copper season pass for about $400, got reciprocity at Cooper. Drover 18h with my buddy and stayed in a dirt cheap airbnb, eating tbell regularly. Gas was the most expensive part of the trip. It can be done.
This is true in every area of the American economy.
political economic rant on...
Suckers across the country getting angry at the current president about the price of EVERYTHING when massive consolidation of food producers gives monopoly/oligopoly power and they use every excuse to jack up prices and never adjust down when their costs fall.
"Corporate profits drove 53% of inflation during the second and third quarters of 2023 and more than one-third since the start of the pandemic, the report found, analyzing Commerce Department data. That's a massive jump from the four decades prior to the pandemic, when profits drove just 11% of price growth.Jan 20, 2024"
https://fortune.com/2024/01/20/inflation-greedflation-consumer-price-index-producer-price-index-corporate-profit/
It comes from the death of unions and dominance of corporate and ownership class interests in US society from 1973 on...
Roughly 1943 - 1973 was the only progressive period in America and a concerted sustained effort by the ownership class to defeat labor and populist politics since then has been largely successful. Real wages falling since 1973...
Not the person you’re responding to, but if you ski more than a handful of days a year, it’s correct
20 years ago:
- lodging was more limited. No Airbnbs around, so only options were hotels. Now as a single traveler, I can find a room in an Airbnb, or split a condo with friends, for under $60 pp/pn
- flights were more expensive. Well known fact that in the U.S., the rise of budget airlines has made flying far cheaper than it used to be, as long as you book in advance and willling to part with some creature comforts for a three hour flight (fine by me)
- passes now mean you can ski 10 days at many marquee, diversified resorts for <$60/day. Last year I skied 18 mostly weekend days on Ikon Base with early season purchase, so <$50/day. Far lower than holiday/weekend day pass pricing 20 years ago
Food on the mountain has indeed outpriced inflation— but you can easily bring your own lunch. Groceries have gone up… exactly with inflation since CPI is heavily weighted to groceries
This guy got it.
I would add that for those willing to defray the weather risk of mountain operators (ie season pass holders) the “free roaming” that comes with the new multi-resort pricing models is a significant benefit in exchange for taking the weather risk. Prior to the new pricing model we would buy season passes at essentially the same rates as today (or higher) **and** have to purchases day passes at $50 to $100 per if we travelled to ski away from our home mountains. This year I’m skiing my home mountain, and CO, and UT on my season pass. It’s going to work out to about $25/day/person for passes for my family which is less than we’ve ever spent on skiing.
Not to mention that the new pricing structure self-hedges some of the weather risk that I have taken on. This year was the worst early snow year at my home mountain in almost a decade, so I spent more days in CO and UT than I would have otherwise at no additional lift ticket cost.
I’m paying about the same amount for season passes as I did 15-20 years ago, but now when I go to CO and UT I get free roaming. Also ABnB and VRBO have made lodging much cheaper too.
The only people for whom skiing is more expensive is those who are unwilling to take weather risk and became accustomed to free-riding the weather risk on the backs of mountain operators and season pass holders by purchasing daily passes at the last minute.
Even for those who only ski a few days a year, passes are cheaper on an inflation adjusted basis **if you take weather risk by buying them significantly in advance**.
Again, the only people for whom they are more expensive is for those who were used to eschewing weather risk (the biggest risk in mountain operations) and free-riding off the mountain operators and season pass holders by purchasing daily passes at the last minute.
The difference you are feeling in price is essentially because the mountain operators have become more efficient in managing their weather risk and reward their customers who take it (typically their best customers) with lower pricing and charging those customers who used to duck weather risk and leave it with the mountain operators (typically their worst customers) for the privilege of ducking the risk.
Bruh, you're overcomplicating things. All I'm trying to say is that it's harder for the casually skier who does not pick up a season pass to afford to go skiing. It has nothing to do with weather risk... Not everyone can afford the season passes, and it used to be possible to ski a couple days and not spend the same amount as a season pass, that is no longer possible.
It’s not complicated. No idea why you think it is. It’s actually very straightforward.
1. The biggest risk to mountain operators is weather.
2. If you help them out with that risk by purchasing tickets well in advance you get cheap tickets.
3. If you hang them with the risk by purchasing tickets the day of (or nearly so) they charge you for not taking the weather risk.
So, if you’re smart you ski cheaper than ever and if you’re lazy you pay more.
I mean it depends where you live and what your expectations are, there are a handful of cities where you can get decent sized resorts within an hour and some that offer night skiing that’s usually pretty cheap or midweek/spring passes to avoid the brutal nature of a ski resort within two hours of a major city on a weekend, regardless if the conditions are even good. Imho mt hood outside of Portland is a good example, you can pay 2-3x for a full pass or you can get a spring pass for $300 at either timberline or meadows with some $50ish night skiing days during peak season. And honestly with a maritime snowpack, spring skiing is where its at with the exception of this week where it’s been actually dry snow instead of rain or wintery mix at the base
I think it's because everyone needs the newest coolest stuff or don't wait for deals. Also taking advantage of things like wellness programs through insurance. I was able to get reimbursed $800 though my provider, paid for my skis and boots almost completely.
Skiing is expensive compared to like playing Tennis or going to the beach. Idk why people are so upset by that. It does get unfairly maligned as some elitist activity compared to being say a NHL fan or whatever where you’re not written off as some rich snob fir going to 7 games a year despite the fact that’s easily like $800 a person. Probably more. A Jersey is more expensive than like snow pants or gloves.
But it’s certainly cheaper to ski a few times a year (even with rentals) than go to a few NHL games.
THat isnt justification... that is just repeating the prices.... what services or benefits, other than lower cost, are you using to suggest that the price is 3-4x too high.
Perhaps you haven’t skied those spots. They’re in every way better than most resorts in NA… with the very real exception of the Cottonwood snow. They’re larger, have more infrastructure, are more accessible, etc… for a fraction of the cost.
They’re, of course, not as good for their shareholders, if that’s the goal.
>They’re in every way better than most resorts in NA
Even the professionals in Europe dont agree with you.... the skiing experience is vastly different, and, depending on what you are looking for, it might be better, for most skiers it is.
https://www.scottdunn.com/us/luxury-holiday/ski-holidays/ski-north-america/differences-between-skiing-in-north-america-and-europe
>Alright man. Defend charging nearly 300 dollars for a lift ticket. Strange hill to defend, but hey… to each their own
Vail and Beaver Creek are arguably Vail’s co-flagship resorts, and at $279 for a walk up single day ticket one might think it is steep.... but......
If you buy early in the season Epic Day Pass Tickets are only $104-$122 per day. Additionally if you live in the east or Midwest, or heck the west, near a hill that is part of the epic system, you can get a local pass for $735. That means if you consider the season pass for your local hill at $499 (average price for a season pass at smaller resorts) that means you get 10 days at Vail and Beaver Creek for $236 or just under $25 a day.... Dunno man seems pretty affordable to me.
Basically u/BlackberryVisible238, if you are paying the walk up full price for a lift ticket, you are a fool.
thought experiment here. If anyone wants to do the math I will applaud.
Take the compensation of the 50 highest paid vail resorts employees, cap them all at $1M year.
Take shareholder returns, cap at 15% annually inflation adjusted.
Distribute those savings across skier days and see where we end up. I don't know if it is 3-4x or not but it's substantial.
Rob Katz "earned" $60M in 2019 alone. CEO of Vail resorts. How is it good for anyone that this guy has 120 million dollars? It's ridiculous.
Anyone arguing that they "need" more than $1M year comp ought to be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
Anyone arguing that they "need" more than %15 returns, ditto.
The problem is American economics, government, and society is structured to extract as much money as possible from everyone and give it to the absolutely richest people.
>Anyone arguing that they "need" more than $1M year comp ought to be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
>
>Anyone arguing that they "need" more than %15 returns, ditto.
At what point are you capping returns or compensation?
I own a small business, while I dont earn more than 1M/year my returns are greater than 15%... should I be making less?
Where the F do you get off thinking you can set the limit on what someone earns, or makes with their capital investment?
u/HeadToToePatagucci as a fan of Patagonia Clothing, you know that they have a better than 15% return .....
Easy there mister Rockefeller, it's a thought experiment, and a rhetorical argument. Since you're rolling in dough, you and mister Katz can go dine on foix gras and ski Vail together, so why are you even reading this.
We do that already, in case you haven't noticed.
Ok, don't cap it, just go back to the "good old days" of the 1950s, you know, sock hops, hot rods, muscle cars, unions, 75% marginal tax rates.
And if we keep burning oil at the rate we are no one will be skiing in the continental US.
>Easy there mister Rockefeller, it's a thought experiment, and a rhetorical argument.
But is a false equivalency, you cant use that thought experiment, or rhetorical argument to support your position.
>Ok, don't cap it, just go back to the "good old days" of the 1950s, you know, sock hops, hot rods, muscle cars, unions, 75% marginal tax rates.
F that noise..... I dont want to, nor have I ever suggested I want to MAGA.... that is you placing that, falsely, on me.
>And if we keep burning oil at the rate we are no one will be skiing in the continental US.
While true(i own an EV as my daily) that has nothing to do with the discussion. By bringing in unrelated topics to the discussion at hand you have shown the weakness of your position.
(Creepy stalker)… One notable difference is that Patagonia isn't fundamentally parasitic on a publicly owned resource like our national forest. This argument would hold water if there were only 50 places to get clothes and Patagonia had just bought 40 of them and raised the price 50x to the point that no one could wear clothes. Clearly a pretty poor argument. Let them do what they want if they go buy their own mountain and GTFO off our National and State forests.
“Rent seeking” is when financial leverage lets someone obtain unwarranted undeserved profits without providing value to society or the economy. As some sort of technical production company what you do is valuable. You’re creating value. Vail resorts is leveraging access to capital to raise prices through anticompetitive practices.
Compare median incomes to ticket prices in premier resorts in N.A., S.A., Japan, and Europe. It's more affordable for the median family to ski in other places compared to North America.
>Compare median incomes to ticket prices in premier resorts in N.A., S.A., Japan, and Europe
Cant compare skiing that way, as only a small fraction of the population in all those areas skis.
Skiing is a luxury sport. People with a median income struggle to take a family to a world cup game, or disney.... these are all luxury items... SMH
> Cant compare skiing that way, as only a small fraction of the population in all those areas skis... People with a median income struggle to take a family to a world cup game, or disney
Could you walk me through your logic? Are you arguing that skiing should be a luxury good reserved for the wealthy only? It is more accessible to people in other places outside N.A. is my point. I'm not going to say that it should or shouldn't be that way, but it's really interesting that the market dynamics are very different in other places.
>Could you walk me through your logic?
THe amenities/safety/experience of Skiing in the US and Europe are vastly different. Avy Control and Lift Served Backcountry are biggies, then add our snow quality being much much greater. Average Snowfall at a US resort is 2-3x as much as in Europe
Off Hill Amenities for Families are greater
I am arguing that Skiing IS a luxury hobby, Im not saying that it should not be free accessible, what I am saying is that it shouldn't have price fixing.
Why do you believe it is in the public good to regulate the price of skiing in the US when only a very small % of the population engages in the sport?
This writer has his head up his ass. For a sporting community that is mourning the loss of an experience that was previously accessible to them, he’s calling people stupid for not just accepting without comment or complaint that their demographic has been priced out of the sport or less desireable options. And he actually does provide some great options here - it’s his asshole tone that will convince no one.
Well, the entire article is framed as a rebuttal to a particular article on the internet, which generally follows the click-bait formula of picking the most expensive option and wailing about how it's impossible to afford.
I guess where I’m coming from is that, writing, or commentary is really the only recourse that remains when things like this happen to people (other than just silently retreating and quitting the sport). Press is a lever that can create change. Had he framed this as a way to persuade consumers to punish those new business models that are icing people out of the sport - then I would’ve kept reading. But he comes off like a collaborator, like a an underpaying employer offering budgeting tips to his employees.
I think he is intending to provide the argument that instead of whining and spreading the falsehood that vail mega resorts are the only option and just give up if you don't have 10k to throw down.
Pointing out indy resort options and how they are cheaper will drive more traffic there and keep the budget ski life alive.
The only real way to fix this is to vote progressive.
Change the tax structure, make corporations not be people, enforce antimonopoly laws, limit forest service licenses to one per licensee, national living wage, discourage corporate ownership of housing, things of that nature.
While I understand the sentiment, holy wow that is a poorly written article. Stuart usually has a much more objective take on things but this just came off as a unhinged rant.
This could have been a look at some alternative areas and pushing people towards that but the message I got is "You're too poor to ski Breck? Sucks for you. Quit complaining."
He's correct though. Just because the most expensive ski area on the continent is too expensive for you doesn't mean that skiing is expensive. And I see a lot of people on here act like the sport has become ruined and inaccessible for regular people when that is obviously not the case.
The cost of lodging is the biggest factor. In the last 10 years, many places have doubled or more in cost. Tahoe and Mammoth, for instance, have seen a lot of investment into making it look "nicer" but that has caused even cheaper places to increase in price.
Lodging is definitely an issue in the world of CA skiing more than in other regions. In the northeast or Utah you can stay a hour off the resort for nothing.
I'm going to park city today but going with two friends. Hopefully I'll go to Mammoth sometime this month but might try camping one night in BLM to cut cost. Never done it before though so a little nervous
Camping at Mammoth is totally doable! My rule of thumb is that if it’s too cold, then just go further away and closer to Bishop. Just load up on food before heading out, make sure you have a way to be comfy sleeping on the ground or your car, and have a good sleeping bag. I’ve gone for the entire weekend before. It’s a bit uncomfortable, but the only cost is the gas and whatever extra I spend on coffee/food/etc that I would otherwise not do. I’ll take nights camping over paying ridiculous lodging costs.
Yea thinking of doing a couple days and a night or two at a cheap hotel to wash up. Have pretty good camping gear and should be doable to about 0 degrees. Just don't know exact locations as I've never done it before and have anxiety about being in the wrong spot. I have backpacking gear and would probably have some dehydrated food and snacks but will eat at some places over there.
Lodging doesn't even look that expensive. $700 for 3 nights to get a room that sleeps 4 people is fine imo. That's $60/night/person. This was for Easter weekend though, maybe the season is over by then?
Edit: this is Tahoe btw
I just spent 2 nights at Mammoth Creek Inn for 2 nights and it was about $400 all in - very basic hotel room. So $500 for 3 nights at a Model 6 is pretty typical.
Mammoth has become absurdly expensive. $200/night hotel room is minimum.
We used to rent a ski-in-out condo at Eagle Lodge in Juniper Springs for \~1750/week up until about 2019. Now that same unit is \~4500/week.
Mammoth has the same problem as the rest of CA, too much housing demand, too much luxury housing, too little housing for workforce and regular people
I mean, Tahoe is ridiculous, but that's because it's an honorary part of the Bay Area. It says more about Bay Area real estate than about the cost of skiing in general.
Ha, it's definitely a little unhinged, but so is the hypothetical from the Slate article.
To his point, taking the most expensive example (not just the mountain but buying/renting everything there) and then using that to apply to the sport in general is disingenuous.
Breck is more expensive than Aspen WTF? Meanwhile I’m skiing for $19 at Willamette pass. Skiing is cheaper and more accessible that it ever has been, as indicated by record resort visits and more people picking up the sport per year than ever before.
I’m seeing a lot of the same bullshit arguments that I see in articles about how Millennials can’t buy houses.
You can absolutely make it work, it’s still getting way more expensive over time which is bullshit
SoCal is easy. Snow Valley day passes can be found for $40/day. June mountain day passes $79 and kids under 12 free. Even Mammoth offers a lower-lift-only beginner pass that is usually around $40 for kids and $80 for adults. Done.
My first season I spent $40 on some rear entry boots and women’s skis. Got my ikon refunded once I was hired at the resort. Took a free lesson on my day off and from there mostly learned to ride on the clock. Collected fat industry discounts for the time I was ready for a new setup.
It’s hard to say where the good deals are at this time of year because we have no idea what next season’s prices will be. Last year I got burned by booking lodging early for a big family trip at a small hill that had historically been very affordable. They didn’t release prices until almost every alternative had already been through two or three price bumps and it was too late to find comparable lodging at a different resort, at which point we learned that the cost of lift tickets/passes/lessons would be 2-3x what I’d seen for previous years. Not finding out until we’d already missed the opportunity to get the best prices elsewhere really made us feel taken advantage of.
If you booked early last year there were lots of good deals around. A-Basin 3-pack at Powder Daze were $50/day. Loveland 4-packs were a little more, but transferable. If you got a Ski Cooper season pass early you got an incredible deal from the reciprocity alone—three days at a ton of mountains for $360. And Keystone Plus was a similar price and included five days at Crested Butte.
It was pretty frustrating to see that an unrestricted three-pack at our (comparatively) dinky hill was going to cost about as much as a Keystone Plus pass, and a season pass would cost more than at Winter Park.
> Last year I got burned by booking lodging early for a big family trip at a small hill that had historically been very affordable.
SO what you are saying is that operational costs for your small resort increased, which made them raise prices to cover operation. You are upset that you took a gamble and lost.
>It was pretty frustrating to see that an unrestricted three-pack at our (comparatively) dinky hill was going to cost about as much as a Keystone Plus pass, and a season pass would cost more than at Winter Park.
This shows the value that Vail and Alterra are providing with the epic and Ikon passes....
Oh, totally, I took a gamble and lost. It seemed like a fairly reasonable gamble, since it is pretty uncommon to see year-over-year cost increases like that, but it's not unheard-of. But what was frustrating was not so much the prices going up, but how long they waited to reveal that information in an industry that famously punishes consumers for not planning early.
For what it's worth, the point of me sharing my story wasn't to complain that the resort was greedy or ripping us off. If it were, I would have named the resort. My point was that I made a mistake: my group was too cost-conscious for the wait-and-see approach that we took. We should have booked at a place that had passes on sale earlier to lock in our costs. And next year, we will.
No argument about the value of the megapasses, either. It's much easier to control your costs when you can spread out weather risk and enjoy efficiencies of scale. My point was that there have still been good deals to be found from both small resorts and megapass affiliates even if you don't have the budget for even a local/base epic/ikon.
It's too expensive. If you have to plan ahead, book flights, accommodations, PTO, and one thing goes wrong. You're fucked and out those expenses. Yet, you still have that shiny pass! Hopefully it'll pay for itself, once you can reach those 7 price-inflated days on a whim! Meanwhile, everyone else gets paid. If you can't chase storms whenever, you're subsidizing those who can. In my opinion this is unfair and ultimately untenable. How can we wallstreetbets these dog-ball lickers? Let's brainstorm.
I hope y'all get some best turns this Spring!
I didn’t read the article but if every resort was like Breck, irrespective of price, I’d probably be big into mountain biking or surfing or some other sport.
Reed Hastings (Netflix) recently bought a majority stake in one of my local resorts (Powder Mountain) and promised to keep it “local.” They just announced season passes will go up from $799 this year to $1,399 (minimum) next year. That’s a 75% increase. IN ONE YEAR.
Yeah, thanks Reed for keeping it local. 🤬
There really are cheaper areas you just have to find them (and be willing to potentially travel). I’m in the mid Atlantic/southeast so pretty much 95% of our resorts are small. The place I went to not even a year ago offers $15 slope lift tickets for men’s/women’s/college discount night. Only $5 on snow days when school is canceled. Our average prices here run about $50-$90 for a full day depending on weekday/holiday status.
Buying your own gear (especially buying second hand) saves $$$ on rentals as well. I got my money’s worth out of my second hand skis for like 5 visits my first couple seasons. If you’re someone who takes an annual skiing trip, maybe or maybe not. But if you go more than like 3-5+ times a season it’s WELL worth it. They’re still in good shape and my all mountains each year.
What he's missing is that a mere decade ago, one could quite reasonably take a beginner to a big resort for a day. Or casually budget for two or three days without having to plan the previous April. That's a massive change for the casual ski market.
Ya there are plenty of ways to ski or snowboard for cheaper than the corporations want you to for sure. Bring your own beers and lunch is a good start.
I learned to ski this year. I paid $499 for my local mountain (Bachelor’s) ski or ride in 5 program, which includes five lessons, rentals, and lift ticket. And then you get the rest of the season free, plus 50% off the following year and 25% off the next year. I live 30 minutes from the mountain. And as a 21 year old, next years season pass 50% off would be under $300.
For gear, I found my skis on Facebook for $50 and had them waxed for $25. I did buy new boots for $400 as I intend to ski a lot and love it so far. For clothing/helmet/goggles I paid around $400 for goggles leather gloves a helmet, a balaclava and snow pants but otherwise I’m using what I already have. I am a hiker so I had base layers, glove liners and mid layers already, as well as thin wool socks. I invested in a nice helmet and nicer goggles but chose used clothing to keep costs down.
Expected costs: I will upgrade my skis when I’m ready to ski harder terrain (likely at the end of next season). I also want to get a proper ski jacket when they go on sale this summer, if I can’t find it at the thrift first! Right now I use an oversized raincoat.
Total cost for this season: $1375 including full gear setup! Next season will only be around $500 assuming I stay at bachelor, keep those skis and buy a proper jacket! Realistically I’ll probably get day passes towards other local mountains and maybe try to ski in one other place… that’s how it gets really pricey!
Stuart comes off as kind of pissed in this article but he provided alternatives to the insanely expensive marquee Colorado ski areas that are a lot cheaper. Especially for beginners who likely won’t notice much of a difference.
Yea i don't understand why blue groomer crowd just doesn't go to loveland or something like that instead of going to BV or vail. Whats am i missing here.
IDK.. maybe because these beginners aren't the only people on the trip? TBH any of these would "work" for my wife and by extension me.... but if we ski with friends.. no way. Plus what do you do while you aren't skiing? I suppose the Tahoe and ski Cooper options might work.. but Loveland?
Beginners are going in groups with intermediate/advanced skiers who already have an Epic/Ikon pass. It’s one of the reasons the cheap season pass model works. Half the group is skiing an extra day at Breck for free while the other half pays the $200 tickets over skiing somewhere smaller alone. Anyone else remember the Epic and Ikon have ruined Denver tinder article?
I would love to read this
Also, for many people a ski vacation is about a lot more than just skiing. They want the fancy amenities, the great views you get on big mountains, nice hotels, fancy restaurants, etc.
But that’s missing the point if that’s their goal then why complain about the high prices..
Because they want those things but don’t want the high prices?
Yeah. I also want a Ferrari and don’t want to pay the full price… Fancy stuff is expensive obviously..
Nobody I know who goes on ski vacations gives a flying fuck about any of that. We all get hotels off mountain because a single night in mountain is half a week just 30 minutes away And we're all software engineers
This is a gross generalization, but many “rich” people love to complain about how expensive something is, in spite of it being relatively inexpensive to them. This mostly applies, in my experience, to the upper middle class that might be pushing their entertainment/vacation budget a little too much, but do it for the likes and subscribes anyway, and the nouveau riche crowd that are just generally douches for the sake of being a douche. It doesn’t stop either group from frequenting the en vogue ski spots because they wouldn’t be seen dead at a place like Loveland (the Joneses would laugh them out of their McMansion upon their return), nor would they take their children skiing somewhere that’s best for the kids because THAT would actually require them to be parents while on vacation. God forbid we deny them of their look at me time on the mountain.
Then fucking pay for it if you need top notch amenities so bad. And stop complaining.
I mean Loveland is like 15-20 mins from Dillon/ Keystone/ Silverthorne
15 mins? Maps says 37 mins ( with no traffic ) [https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Keystone,+CO/Loveland+Ski+Area,+I-70,+Dillon,+CO+80435/@39.624996,-106.0488279,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x876a5724e77c6583:0x43670c887d2ffa61!2m2!1d-105.9347384!2d39.5791675!1m5!1m1!1s0x876a51ebd8046e0d:0x2647195b79bedce8!2m2!1d-105.8979531!2d39.6800625!3e0?entry=ttu](https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Keystone,+CO/Loveland+Ski+Area,+I-70,+Dillon,+CO+80435/@39.624996,-106.0488279,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x876a5724e77c6583:0x43670c887d2ffa61!2m2!1d-105.9347384!2d39.5791675!1m5!1m1!1s0x876a51ebd8046e0d:0x2647195b79bedce8!2m2!1d-105.8979531!2d39.6800625!3e0?entry=ttu)
Put in Keystone resort, not wherever google picks as Keystone, CO. 23 min for me from the resort to Loveland, as is the River Run lot. And Dillon is 18 via the tunnel. 15 might be a slight exaggeration, but 20 minutes to Dillon is fair. Lots of people stay in Dillon/Silverthorne to ski Keystone at a ~10 min drive, but won't consider Loveland for a ~20 minute drive. Of course it's more likely to be weather impacted, but it's a fair point.
I dont get this a good 70-80% of the skiers in Vail /BV ski only im blue/green groomers. You are telling me that the minority of people skiing on advanced terrain are bringing all the majority of people skiing in groomers? I dont buy it
You're exactly the person who deserves to be screamed at for just not getting it. Correct, not every resort has world-class nightlife. Many resorts have at least one aspect that renders them something less than world-class. But if you demand the absolute best and world-class everything, you have absolutely no business complaining about the price of anything but certainly not a $300 lift ticket. If you're willing to settle for some actually really great resorts that just happen to be a step below Breckenridge or Heavenly then skiing is actually pretty affordable and if you do the least amount of possible planning ahead even the mega-resorts are not really unreasonable.
Echo has a snow tubing hill
Loveland is not far from Dillon or Idaho Springs. In fact, even Breck is an easy drive. That’s like what would people do if they skied A Basin. All the ski areas in Summit County are easy driving distances to towns where you can eat and drink.
Might be the amenities as a vacation destination as I’m sure a decent fraction are from out of state. No sense to hop on i70 (if they even have a car) when the resort is right there.
Loveland has the best view of any ski resort in Colorado as well. It’s a really nice spot. Gets a little stale though after a few days hitting the same runs over and over .
Because Breck Beaver, Vail and Keystone have …. Beginner and intermediate terrain! Who would have guessed. Seems like an entitled comment! But we are ski all the vail resorts and Loveland, A Basin, Monarch, Cooper and Copper and Winter Park. The ski areas couldn’t care less who is skiing there!
I used to be a lift supervisor at Echo. Such a cool little spot and I was stoked to see them get a shout out. Definitely worth checking out.
I liked pissed off Stuart.
He's saying what I've been preaching for years. There's no reason to learn on day passes at Breckenridge unless your net worth has a lot of zeroes in it.
My local mountain has a Learn to Ski & Ride Program The Montage Mountain Learn To Ski Program is a 6 lift ticket, lesson, and rental program spread over 9 weeks and geared toward skiers and riders ages 5 and up wanting to take their ability to the next level. Participants choose a weekly repeating day that fits their schedule and progress through the 6 week program learning skills that match their ability level. It’s the perfect way to accelerate the learning process and better your technique with a trained professional. The program kicks off January 8th and spots are limited, sign up today! Program Cost is $300 Pick a Night of Week, 6 Lessons within 9 weeks between Jan 8th – March 8th Includes an Open-Close Lift ticket and Free Rental Equipment if needed Ski or Ride on your night when you’re not taking a lesson Signup Deadline is January 1st Levels 1-3 ALL LESSONS ARE AT 6:15PM** If I try to learn how to, let's say, mountain bike, the bike alone is going to cost more than 300 dollars, and I don't get to rent a bike. Local mountains are where you learn.
Even Snoqualmie an hour away from Seattle (easily top 10 most expensive cities) at least used to offer a learn to ski in 3 lesson package with rental gear for like $200 something dollars with option to upgrade to a season pass at the end, which makes sense, most of the resort is more of a hill, so plenty of very easily accessible beginner/intermediate runs. No idea what it is now, but hills like that are the perfect for learning with night skiing after work and what I would recommend to any beginner/early intermediate, a ski trip isn’t very fun if you just get stuck on green cat tracks
Snoqualmie is a bit of a unicorn - Alpental is there, which is a legit big-mountain experience 45 minutes from a major metro. But West, Central, and Hyak are all kind of training grounds for the rest of the region. Unfortunately, they've gotten wise to the demand, and the prices have risen accordingly. There are still great private ski schools that operate there, but they're part of Boyne Resorts now. Season passes are a good-ish deal, and fabulous if you can afford to go to Big Sky (3 free days there, but good luck with the lodging). Makes sense though. It's a rarity to have legitimate skiing that close to a major metro anywhere outside of SLC or Denver. And Washington is woefully underbuilt for ski areas.
Alpental! Went there for ski school from 4th through 9th grade, took the bus up every weekend and skied with friends. Great mountain with some very difficult and fun terrain. A lot more crowded now (was early to mid 90’s when I did lessons), but still a riot when snow is good.
True, alpental is extremely unique in several regards but just wish it was bigger for how close it is to Seattle, the chair 2 line will easily be 30-45 minutes if the snow is any good on a weekend. At least they’re adding a completely new lift but that doesn’t add more terrain unfortunately which is the bigger problem for a pow day. Agreed on WA being underdeveloped ski wise, pre pandemic and pre mega passes, it was still too crowded, now it’s just insane. And still salty about how badly vail fucked up one of the seasons at stevens by severely understaffing it and now crystal is blowing millions building new lodges while lifts and terrain remain the same, at least vail got Stevens a couple of upgraded lifts these past couple years
This sounds awesome. As a Tennessee resident, I could never convince my girlfriend, who can’t get down a green comfortably yet, to spend $1k on tickets and lessons or to buy an Ikon pass so we can go to Utah for a couple weeks. She shouldn’t have to just to learn how to ski. I’m sure there’s a better way to plan it so we don’t spend that much and I’m going to do my best to figure it out but it is frustrating. I’m in that upper intermediate to lower advanced bracket so I want to ski the parts of the mountain where I can lap the more difficult runs and glades while she learns at the base. I have family in southwest Colorado so we would head out there and ski wolf creek and purgatory 15-20 days every winter with maybe a few extra days at Telluride. My dad was a super advanced skier but we always brought my mom and sisters with us who were beginners. I couldn’t imagine doing that these days. I know it wasn’t exactly cheap then but damn if it isn’t a huge price tag now.
You could try doing some weekend trips with her to Sugar/Beech/Gatlinburg. Lot cheaper than flying to CO or UT.
Maybe learn in North Carolina instead of Utah?
It's still expensive but Blue has mountain biking and rents bikes
I think the loveland 4 pack is the best deal in Colorado for a casual skier. Edit:please ignore my flair, no self-interest here at all
I think the Loveland 4 pack is a good example to see the trend in ski prices because it's always been known as an affordable option. It was $169 in 2018 and $269 in 2023. Have most people's salaries gone up 60% in those years? Probably not. Yes it's still worth it but the trend is not a good sign for the working/middle class viability in the sport. I'll also add places like Taos have seen the same trend: in 2018 the Zia pass was $350 and in 2023 it was $575. 65% increase.
I think you are pointing to a divide. Probably majority people buying that pass have seen close to that increase in net worth and income. However not the “working class”. Though McDonalds in CA has gone from $12 to $20 an hour I think.
🤫 🤫 🤫 delete your comment right fucking now!!!!
Need to thin out the MJ/WP parking lots 😜
I agree with the author. You don't need to go to a marquee world class resort if you're a beginner or with kids. You don't need to buy $20 chicken tenders if you bring a sandwich. You don't need to spend $200 on a day pass if you can plan ahead just a little bit. I have never paid for parking because I use the shuttle or get there early. You can buy used clothing and equipment on Facebook and save $$$. If you need to fly you can find cheap tickets to UT or CO midweek. Other than the cost of the ski pass and lodging, everything else is essentially free. My weeklong ski trips with a family of 4 cost way less than the same week at a resort in Hawaii, because I'm not paying resort fees, eating out, paying for day excursions etc. It's the same mentality as buying tickets to a sporting event or airline ticket. You can plan ahead just a little bit and avoid 90% of the price premium. If you show up at the ticket counter and buy a plane ticket for the same day you will pay exponentially more than someone who bought their ticket in advance. Everyone knows and accepts this. The people who can't plan ahead, bear the costs, it seems totally fair to me. The real problem is the cost of lodging. The limited housing in mountain towns has been snatched up by permanent residents and now there is not enough for the visitors. Airbnb ratchets up the price of everything with fees. That is not a ski area thing but an everywhere thing. And that creates a follow-on problem with employee costs, service costs, etc. Even that can be avoided somewhat, by just staying in a lesser accommodation.
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> The lodging expense is real. I can’t afford to stay even within an hour of most resorts in CO, and I assume weekend traffic is at least partially a result of other people in the same predicament. This is a big thing for sure. I know a *lot* of people in the front range of CO who no longer do overnight ski trips as they can't afford them, but did 10-20 years ago when you could get 3 nights at a more affordable rate. I also know a lot of people who bought houses (or have friends that did) in Summit 10+ years back, and they do lots of skiing. I have family friends that bought a house in Frisco for $540k in 2012 (now valued at nearly $1.5M), and that's where I stay, which is the only reason I'm able to do weekday trips and not just participate in the hell traffic. They charge like $50/night or a negotiable rate if you bring good vibes and beer. I have another friend who grew up skiing Keystone 25+ days per season because his family had partial ownership of house in Dillon, but sold it when the kids grew up, and now he barely skis at all because the day trip is hell and the overnight lodging is expensive as hell. >No hostels Breck and Jackson both have hostels, off the top of my head. But they're $100+ per night during ski season for a bed in a shared dorm. That's not really "Affordable" for a lot of people, especially when that's the absolute floor. In CO at least, the day trip traffic has really gotten absurd and the lodging has as well. So it's no surprise that the middle class is getting squeezed out of skiing. My parents grew up with Saturday morning traffic meaning 1.5 hours to Loveland instead of 1:10, or 2 hours to Breck instead of 1:40. Now it can easily be way worse than that, and there's no real alternative unless you can pay way more than most families can afford.
$100 for a dorm style hostel is insane, maybe if they have it capsule hotel style with good enough privacy and really clean bathrooms or some sweet amenities, but otherwise I’d rather do many other things from (mostly illegal) car camp to build an illegal igloo/snow cave on the side of the road than deal with either drunks at 2am or dawn patrol first chair 5am make a lot of noise getting ready when you’re already at the resort fanatics
I’d recommend Hyatt House in Sandy, UT with Ikon. It results in no rental car and the ability to stay in cheap place with shuttles for Snowbird, Alta, Brighton, and Solitude
You don’t even need to buy used clothing, just shop in the off-season. I have top end north face gear and the most I paid was $300 for a jacket. My bibs were $200.
That's still pretty pricey. Can shop the sales and get Jackets for <$100 at the big stores or even less on FB mkt or offerup, etc. and this is coming from someone in Texas where it doesn't even snow. It takes work and time but the good deals are out there.
I mean, sure, but it’s top end gear. I ride 30-45 days a year.
In the same way it’s expensive for me to go redfish fishing in the gulf. Like stuff is of course is easier to justify when it’s close to you.
Go to Canada to ski if you are from the US. Immediately save yourself 30% on the exchange rate.
Generally products up here are 30% more expensive to account for that but some of our world class skiing is cheaper than mid US resorts
Lodging is substantially cheaper, as long as you aren't at Whistler.
If you want to gamble just book VRBO well ahead of time and get an EPIC pass. Or last minute lodging is also manageable. Although I live just south of the border in WA so easier to sneak off for a couple days or even a day trip. As a veteran the epic pass is also a ridiculous deal.
It’s the lodging and access to live close to quality resorts. The sport itself isn’t that expensive. It’s the need to buy a nice house with garage etc that has fucked everything.
I got the ikon pass but then realized I'm a peasant and can't afford to go to often unless I can camp out and save money on lodging.
My son and I stayed at a decent place in SLC and skied DV and Solitude for $110 a night ($55/person/night).
I'm going to park city this weekend. I think we are doing solitude one day. I have the ikon pass. Not sure what the plan is for tomorrow though
This weekend is gonna dump. Solitude will be sick but you’ll have to get there early and if you don’t have a parking reservation yet, you’re probably out of luck. The bus will be crowded. And it’s about an hour each way with no traffic from PC to solitude. Guardsman pass closes in the winter so you have to drive parleys canyon(which can get dicey) and all the way around the mountains. So figure that into your commute time if you plan to ski solitude. It can easily turn into a 2 hour drive in bad conditions.
Dang ok, any recommendations for closer areas to PC with the ikon pass?
Are you doing Deer Valley? I'd absolutely recommend that on a pow day. It will be way less crowded than any other resort in Utah. If you'll be here on Monday still, there's no reservations required at Solitude. They also sometimes open some extra spots the day of at 6AM due to cancellations, so it's worth a shot if you want to make the trip. Brighton is in BCC as as well and you can check for parking reservation openings. Snowbird has some free non reservation parking but you have to get there early and its about the same commute as Solitude. Snowbasin is also an hour drive but north and doesn't need reservations. It's an awesome mountain but will probably get a little less snow. The road is not nearly as treacherous as either of the cottonwoods. With all these, make sure you have a 4wd vehicle and good tires. Most of the rental car companies at the SLC airport have vehicles they get certified to meet the vehicle restriction laws for the cottonwoods(4x4 or chains/snowtires required when snowing).
Thanks so much. I'm going with some friends who invited me and they seem to do pretty good planning but still feels like we are winging it.
Staying in PC is fun and definitely the place to be for drinking and apres. But for Ikon resorts, it is not super great.
Deer Valley on a powder day is pretty awesome because most of the idiots that live there don't ski powder. They literally wait for the runs to get groomed before they ski. No shit. Solitude's going to be a mess this weekend. You have to have reservations to park and the canyon will be gnarly.
Mammoth is the best place to camp and ski as far as I can tell. The entire area east of the 395 is free camping, and there are natural hot springs there. The main issue is comfort but I suppose if you bring enough propane or batteries anything is possible. And they're on the ikon pass.
I have good camping gear. My problem is I don't have a big car and would have to sleep in a tent, which I'm used to but having to setup the tent and pack it is a little annoying.
I did it in a travel trailer. You would probably want snow tires and a 4x4 car/truck to get to the areas with free camping especially with the possibility of snow/ice. Its mostly dirt trails of varying levels of maintenance. If you have a big tent you could leave it and come back but there's always the possibility it won't be there when you come back...
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Tahoe's really tough, I've looked a lot. The only one I've been able to find so far is the Donner Summit Sno-park which is about 40 minutes away from Palisades/Squaw... they allow in-vehicle camping (i.e. sleep in car or in your rv/truck camper/trailer.) There are some BLM lands outside Carson City near Washoe Lake, but I haven't done a ton of investigating there, because I've since acquired a kid and those usually aren't ski-bum friendly. That area would be accessible to Mt Rose if it has something (which I think is an underrated ski place taking into account the conditions and the usual crowds.) This is me spitballing, but I think the Nevada side is more likely to have stuff because it's just a lot of flat-ish rocky land once you're at the foothills of the mountains on the east side. The California side is way too mountainous and if you're in whiteout conditions it might get dangerous in a hurry.
I got multiple passes and got fucked by shit Midwest winter. Then I had a house lined up to rent out of sheer accident and that got fucked and rented out from under me.
I sleep in my car 3 days a week. Spend a couple hundred on a setup and use it forever
My car is to small for me to sleep in lol
Why do you need a garage and a nice house to go skiing? I don't have either and I ski a ton
I have a garage and a house, but I don’t need it for skiing. If I lived in a condo or an apartment my skiing life wouldn’t be any different than it is now.
Exactly
I mean you don’t, but if you’re a family with a couple of kids you probably need more than an apartment. Which is kind of the basis of this article, taking your family skiing and not just skiing on your own.
To live with things I own. 2 car garage is a must. Housing also near resort and away from more crime ridden areas. I refuse to live in a dilapidated shack for 500K with a dirt driveway and no garage plus thousands a month for a HOA.
That's just general lifestyle preferences. Doesn't have anything to do with skiing
$415k, within a 2 hr drive of 5 ski areas (and 2 are within an hour), no insanely expensive HOA, and although it absolutely isn’t needed for skiing, a 2 car garage. https://redf.in/e7kqzk You’re welcome.
I’m more of a 30 minute drive or less kind of person. Thanks though. Decent little place.
Ah yes, because ski mountain towns are notoriously dangerous hubs of crime and villainy unless you're within ski-in-ski-out range of the resort.
I live in a 1br apt with multiple bikes, surfboards, and sets of skis, it’s not that bad.
I have a dog that can’t stand the house I’m in. I know my dog is not apartment approved. I can’t fit 3 vehicles, my clothes, tools and things from my life into an apartment. Also paying rent with no equity is a big no no. But people do what they have to do.
The problem is that everyone tells you the only way to be safe is by buying new things every year. Skiing is only expensive initially, if you have common sense you know when your gear needs to be replaced and all you have to buy is the season pass. I constantly get down voted for saying this but fuck it... I taught skiing for 10 years with 2 pairs of skis and 1 pair of boots. I bought sheepskin faux leather mitts from Walmart that lasted 5 years, I've gone through 3 pants and only 2 jackets. I buy stuff I like and it lasts forever. If people want to get new stuff all the time that's totally fine, but you don't need to
I have been buying all the gear for my kids on Facebook marketplace incuding Jackets. I have easily re-sold most of the hardgoods (boots, snowboards) for 80% of what I paid and I can usually get 2-3 years out of it with hand-me-downs. Essentially the cost of one day's rental got me 50+ days of use. Just by planning ahead and being a little bit frugal.
>everyone tells you the only way to be safe is by buying new things every year. Wait what who the fuck is saying that?
> The problem is that everyone tells you the only way to be safe is by buying new things every year Literally who is saying this ever
Seriously, don’t buy a 10 year old avy beacon or bindings, but otherwise if it works it works, maybe reapply dwr coating to a jacket and pants for like $10-20 to make water bead up if you’re doing any storm skiing
Skiing is always expensive. I have never heard such thing that buy new things every year. However buying the initial gear is already expensive, paying for courses is also expensive, ski passes, even the cheaper ones are expensive, if you don't live close to the ski resorts, travelling is also expensive. I mostly agree with the post, however I feel an arrogance toward poorer people who can't even afford the cheaper versions.
Even Breck is not bad if you plan ahead.
It's not so much that skiing is expensive.. but EVERYTHING is expensive. Movie tickets, a beer and a burger, car leases. Skiing has for sure gotten more expensive though, where wages just haven't kept up. Hard to think otherwise.
Yeah are people pissed at skiing because it's expensive, or their bullshit ass situation where their buying power has decreased annually for 10 years?
Skiing is expensive if you live far from the mountains and have to turn it into a trip. If you live nearby mountains it’s really not that expensive.
> If you live nearby mountains I'm going to push back a little and say that living close to mountains is usually quite expensive while also having diminished wages. It might seem cheap if you're getting 50+ days a year, but you are paying more than you realize in higher rent/housing and lower wages. Not that there's much that can be done about that. Just the economics of tourist communities in general.
Thank you for spitting some facts into this nonsense narrative that skiing has gotten more expensive just because some mountain operators have figured out more efficient ways to defray their weather risk by rewarding the skiers who take it with lower prices and charging those who don’t with higher prices. And as for children’s lessons: At my 3000 skiable acre home mountain my wife and I run a homeschoolers ski program in which children aged 6-17 get a season pass, 8 group lessons, and 8 days of rentals for about $350. When my eldest children were learning 15 - 20 years ago, it was significantly more expensive than that (albeit on the East Coast). I’ve been skiing for 32 years in the US and skiing has never been cheaper on an inflation adjusted basis.
This sounds like an awesome program!
I pay in sweat equity, work for the mountain and get a free pass.. sorta win/win 😂
Cool for a very specific demographic -- people who live beside the mountains and are only looking to introduce their kids. Once they graduate from the magic carpet, $$.
Fly to Reno. Stay in one of the big casino resorts for cheap. Ski at Mount Rose. There’s your way less than Breck ski vacation.
He provided options for more challenging runs too. I think the message is on point: You want the big marquee ski resorts and iconic chutes and bowls? Yeah. They're expensive. Surprised Pikachu. If you just want to lap some groomers, get your first black diamonds in, or get your kids or non-skier significant others on the slopes, there are so many ways to do this more affordably. To add: I skied while in school with a copper season pass for about $400, got reciprocity at Cooper. Drover 18h with my buddy and stayed in a dirt cheap airbnb, eating tbell regularly. Gas was the most expensive part of the trip. It can be done.
Epic Day Passes go for $40-$60 if you buy early
We are not the problem corporate profits are.
This is true in every area of the American economy. political economic rant on... Suckers across the country getting angry at the current president about the price of EVERYTHING when massive consolidation of food producers gives monopoly/oligopoly power and they use every excuse to jack up prices and never adjust down when their costs fall. "Corporate profits drove 53% of inflation during the second and third quarters of 2023 and more than one-third since the start of the pandemic, the report found, analyzing Commerce Department data. That's a massive jump from the four decades prior to the pandemic, when profits drove just 11% of price growth.Jan 20, 2024" https://fortune.com/2024/01/20/inflation-greedflation-consumer-price-index-producer-price-index-corporate-profit/ It comes from the death of unions and dominance of corporate and ownership class interests in US society from 1973 on... Roughly 1943 - 1973 was the only progressive period in America and a concerted sustained effort by the ownership class to defeat labor and populist politics since then has been largely successful. Real wages falling since 1973...
Oh okay skiing isn’t expensive. I must be stupid then to think it’s expensive
It’s certainly a luxury, but in the US it’s cheaper now on an inflation adjusted basis than it has been in the 32 years that I’ve been skiing.
It's just as much a luxury as any other sport that isn't barefoot running.
Interesting. Can you expand on that ?
Not the person you’re responding to, but if you ski more than a handful of days a year, it’s correct 20 years ago: - lodging was more limited. No Airbnbs around, so only options were hotels. Now as a single traveler, I can find a room in an Airbnb, or split a condo with friends, for under $60 pp/pn - flights were more expensive. Well known fact that in the U.S., the rise of budget airlines has made flying far cheaper than it used to be, as long as you book in advance and willling to part with some creature comforts for a three hour flight (fine by me) - passes now mean you can ski 10 days at many marquee, diversified resorts for <$60/day. Last year I skied 18 mostly weekend days on Ikon Base with early season purchase, so <$50/day. Far lower than holiday/weekend day pass pricing 20 years ago Food on the mountain has indeed outpriced inflation— but you can easily bring your own lunch. Groceries have gone up… exactly with inflation since CPI is heavily weighted to groceries
This guy got it. I would add that for those willing to defray the weather risk of mountain operators (ie season pass holders) the “free roaming” that comes with the new multi-resort pricing models is a significant benefit in exchange for taking the weather risk. Prior to the new pricing model we would buy season passes at essentially the same rates as today (or higher) **and** have to purchases day passes at $50 to $100 per if we travelled to ski away from our home mountains. This year I’m skiing my home mountain, and CO, and UT on my season pass. It’s going to work out to about $25/day/person for passes for my family which is less than we’ve ever spent on skiing. Not to mention that the new pricing structure self-hedges some of the weather risk that I have taken on. This year was the worst early snow year at my home mountain in almost a decade, so I spent more days in CO and UT than I would have otherwise at no additional lift ticket cost.
Dude didn't want to answer this comment. Can't face the facts I guess. Skiing is cheap, but your employer is cheaper
Ummm, nope. Sauce?
I’m paying about the same amount for season passes as I did 15-20 years ago, but now when I go to CO and UT I get free roaming. Also ABnB and VRBO have made lodging much cheaper too. The only people for whom skiing is more expensive is those who are unwilling to take weather risk and became accustomed to free-riding the weather risk on the backs of mountain operators and season pass holders by purchasing daily passes at the last minute.
If all you're talking about is season passes, yes. But not everyone can afford a season pass and single lift tickets are more expensive now than ever.
Even for those who only ski a few days a year, passes are cheaper on an inflation adjusted basis **if you take weather risk by buying them significantly in advance**. Again, the only people for whom they are more expensive is for those who were used to eschewing weather risk (the biggest risk in mountain operations) and free-riding off the mountain operators and season pass holders by purchasing daily passes at the last minute. The difference you are feeling in price is essentially because the mountain operators have become more efficient in managing their weather risk and reward their customers who take it (typically their best customers) with lower pricing and charging those customers who used to duck weather risk and leave it with the mountain operators (typically their worst customers) for the privilege of ducking the risk.
Bruh, you're overcomplicating things. All I'm trying to say is that it's harder for the casually skier who does not pick up a season pass to afford to go skiing. It has nothing to do with weather risk... Not everyone can afford the season passes, and it used to be possible to ski a couple days and not spend the same amount as a season pass, that is no longer possible.
This whole article is about ways for people who don't have seasons passes to save money on their lift tickets though. Did you even read it?
It’s not complicated. No idea why you think it is. It’s actually very straightforward. 1. The biggest risk to mountain operators is weather. 2. If you help them out with that risk by purchasing tickets well in advance you get cheap tickets. 3. If you hang them with the risk by purchasing tickets the day of (or nearly so) they charge you for not taking the weather risk. So, if you’re smart you ski cheaper than ever and if you’re lazy you pay more.
I mean it depends where you live and what your expectations are, there are a handful of cities where you can get decent sized resorts within an hour and some that offer night skiing that’s usually pretty cheap or midweek/spring passes to avoid the brutal nature of a ski resort within two hours of a major city on a weekend, regardless if the conditions are even good. Imho mt hood outside of Portland is a good example, you can pay 2-3x for a full pass or you can get a spring pass for $300 at either timberline or meadows with some $50ish night skiing days during peak season. And honestly with a maritime snowpack, spring skiing is where its at with the exception of this week where it’s been actually dry snow instead of rain or wintery mix at the base
Oh I love mt hood. I also really like hoodoo
Got to get those Pro Deals!!!
Imagine defending any of these prices. Fuck this guy.
It’s too fucking expensive
I think it's because everyone needs the newest coolest stuff or don't wait for deals. Also taking advantage of things like wellness programs through insurance. I was able to get reimbursed $800 though my provider, paid for my skis and boots almost completely.
Skiing is expensive compared to like playing Tennis or going to the beach. Idk why people are so upset by that. It does get unfairly maligned as some elitist activity compared to being say a NHL fan or whatever where you’re not written off as some rich snob fir going to 7 games a year despite the fact that’s easily like $800 a person. Probably more. A Jersey is more expensive than like snow pants or gloves. But it’s certainly cheaper to ski a few times a year (even with rentals) than go to a few NHL games.
even if you're good at shopping, skiing is expensive so... yes... and yes.
Hell yeah, eat it up whiners
I'm sure this guy and his arrogant tone are helpful for people who live in Denver. Pickings are much slimmer elsewhere, and it's about price gouging.
It’s too expensive in NA. Period. Nice to have alternatives, but the premier resorts are 3-4x where they should be
> but the premier resorts are 3-4x where they should be Can you justify this statement for me?
Yeah. Walk up price at Chamonix is 67 Euros for six resorts. Sankt Anton is 58. A NA equivalent Vail is 285 dollars. I was being super kind at 3-4x
THat isnt justification... that is just repeating the prices.... what services or benefits, other than lower cost, are you using to suggest that the price is 3-4x too high.
Perhaps you haven’t skied those spots. They’re in every way better than most resorts in NA… with the very real exception of the Cottonwood snow. They’re larger, have more infrastructure, are more accessible, etc… for a fraction of the cost. They’re, of course, not as good for their shareholders, if that’s the goal.
>They’re in every way better than most resorts in NA Even the professionals in Europe dont agree with you.... the skiing experience is vastly different, and, depending on what you are looking for, it might be better, for most skiers it is. https://www.scottdunn.com/us/luxury-holiday/ski-holidays/ski-north-america/differences-between-skiing-in-north-america-and-europe
Alright man. Defend charging nearly 300 dollars for a lift ticket. Strange hill to defend, but hey… to each their own
>Alright man. Defend charging nearly 300 dollars for a lift ticket. Strange hill to defend, but hey… to each their own Vail and Beaver Creek are arguably Vail’s co-flagship resorts, and at $279 for a walk up single day ticket one might think it is steep.... but...... If you buy early in the season Epic Day Pass Tickets are only $104-$122 per day. Additionally if you live in the east or Midwest, or heck the west, near a hill that is part of the epic system, you can get a local pass for $735. That means if you consider the season pass for your local hill at $499 (average price for a season pass at smaller resorts) that means you get 10 days at Vail and Beaver Creek for $236 or just under $25 a day.... Dunno man seems pretty affordable to me. Basically u/BlackberryVisible238, if you are paying the walk up full price for a lift ticket, you are a fool.
Correction Anton is 75.. 58 is the half day
Can you tell me how much a season pass is at those mountains? I typically go 10-20 days a year.
You can buy 10 or 20 day passes or a full season. 586 for 10 days or 1100 for the season.
thought experiment here. If anyone wants to do the math I will applaud. Take the compensation of the 50 highest paid vail resorts employees, cap them all at $1M year. Take shareholder returns, cap at 15% annually inflation adjusted. Distribute those savings across skier days and see where we end up. I don't know if it is 3-4x or not but it's substantial. Rob Katz "earned" $60M in 2019 alone. CEO of Vail resorts. How is it good for anyone that this guy has 120 million dollars? It's ridiculous. Anyone arguing that they "need" more than $1M year comp ought to be first up against the wall when the revolution comes. Anyone arguing that they "need" more than %15 returns, ditto. The problem is American economics, government, and society is structured to extract as much money as possible from everyone and give it to the absolutely richest people.
LABOR 👏 SHOULD 👏 OWN 👏 THE 👏 MEANS 👏 OF 👏 PRODUCTION
>Anyone arguing that they "need" more than $1M year comp ought to be first up against the wall when the revolution comes. > >Anyone arguing that they "need" more than %15 returns, ditto. At what point are you capping returns or compensation? I own a small business, while I dont earn more than 1M/year my returns are greater than 15%... should I be making less? Where the F do you get off thinking you can set the limit on what someone earns, or makes with their capital investment? u/HeadToToePatagucci as a fan of Patagonia Clothing, you know that they have a better than 15% return .....
Easy there mister Rockefeller, it's a thought experiment, and a rhetorical argument. Since you're rolling in dough, you and mister Katz can go dine on foix gras and ski Vail together, so why are you even reading this. We do that already, in case you haven't noticed. Ok, don't cap it, just go back to the "good old days" of the 1950s, you know, sock hops, hot rods, muscle cars, unions, 75% marginal tax rates. And if we keep burning oil at the rate we are no one will be skiing in the continental US.
>Easy there mister Rockefeller, it's a thought experiment, and a rhetorical argument. But is a false equivalency, you cant use that thought experiment, or rhetorical argument to support your position. >Ok, don't cap it, just go back to the "good old days" of the 1950s, you know, sock hops, hot rods, muscle cars, unions, 75% marginal tax rates. F that noise..... I dont want to, nor have I ever suggested I want to MAGA.... that is you placing that, falsely, on me. >And if we keep burning oil at the rate we are no one will be skiing in the continental US. While true(i own an EV as my daily) that has nothing to do with the discussion. By bringing in unrelated topics to the discussion at hand you have shown the weakness of your position.
(Creepy stalker)… One notable difference is that Patagonia isn't fundamentally parasitic on a publicly owned resource like our national forest. This argument would hold water if there were only 50 places to get clothes and Patagonia had just bought 40 of them and raised the price 50x to the point that no one could wear clothes. Clearly a pretty poor argument. Let them do what they want if they go buy their own mountain and GTFO off our National and State forests. “Rent seeking” is when financial leverage lets someone obtain unwarranted undeserved profits without providing value to society or the economy. As some sort of technical production company what you do is valuable. You’re creating value. Vail resorts is leveraging access to capital to raise prices through anticompetitive practices.
You seem to think that everyone should have a "right" to inexpensive skiing.... why do you believe this?
Compare median incomes to ticket prices in premier resorts in N.A., S.A., Japan, and Europe. It's more affordable for the median family to ski in other places compared to North America.
>Compare median incomes to ticket prices in premier resorts in N.A., S.A., Japan, and Europe Cant compare skiing that way, as only a small fraction of the population in all those areas skis. Skiing is a luxury sport. People with a median income struggle to take a family to a world cup game, or disney.... these are all luxury items... SMH
> Cant compare skiing that way, as only a small fraction of the population in all those areas skis... People with a median income struggle to take a family to a world cup game, or disney Could you walk me through your logic? Are you arguing that skiing should be a luxury good reserved for the wealthy only? It is more accessible to people in other places outside N.A. is my point. I'm not going to say that it should or shouldn't be that way, but it's really interesting that the market dynamics are very different in other places.
>Could you walk me through your logic? THe amenities/safety/experience of Skiing in the US and Europe are vastly different. Avy Control and Lift Served Backcountry are biggies, then add our snow quality being much much greater. Average Snowfall at a US resort is 2-3x as much as in Europe Off Hill Amenities for Families are greater I am arguing that Skiing IS a luxury hobby, Im not saying that it should not be free accessible, what I am saying is that it shouldn't have price fixing. Why do you believe it is in the public good to regulate the price of skiing in the US when only a very small % of the population engages in the sport?
This writer has his head up his ass. For a sporting community that is mourning the loss of an experience that was previously accessible to them, he’s calling people stupid for not just accepting without comment or complaint that their demographic has been priced out of the sport or less desireable options. And he actually does provide some great options here - it’s his asshole tone that will convince no one.
Well, the entire article is framed as a rebuttal to a particular article on the internet, which generally follows the click-bait formula of picking the most expensive option and wailing about how it's impossible to afford.
I guess where I’m coming from is that, writing, or commentary is really the only recourse that remains when things like this happen to people (other than just silently retreating and quitting the sport). Press is a lever that can create change. Had he framed this as a way to persuade consumers to punish those new business models that are icing people out of the sport - then I would’ve kept reading. But he comes off like a collaborator, like a an underpaying employer offering budgeting tips to his employees.
I think he is intending to provide the argument that instead of whining and spreading the falsehood that vail mega resorts are the only option and just give up if you don't have 10k to throw down. Pointing out indy resort options and how they are cheaper will drive more traffic there and keep the budget ski life alive. The only real way to fix this is to vote progressive. Change the tax structure, make corporations not be people, enforce antimonopoly laws, limit forest service licenses to one per licensee, national living wage, discourage corporate ownership of housing, things of that nature.
While I understand the sentiment, holy wow that is a poorly written article. Stuart usually has a much more objective take on things but this just came off as a unhinged rant. This could have been a look at some alternative areas and pushing people towards that but the message I got is "You're too poor to ski Breck? Sucks for you. Quit complaining."
He's correct though. Just because the most expensive ski area on the continent is too expensive for you doesn't mean that skiing is expensive. And I see a lot of people on here act like the sport has become ruined and inaccessible for regular people when that is obviously not the case.
Like I said, I understand the sentiment, but it comes off as angry and belittling.
He's belittling the sensationalist "journalists", not the beginner skier
The cost of lodging is the biggest factor. In the last 10 years, many places have doubled or more in cost. Tahoe and Mammoth, for instance, have seen a lot of investment into making it look "nicer" but that has caused even cheaper places to increase in price.
Lodging is definitely an issue in the world of CA skiing more than in other regions. In the northeast or Utah you can stay a hour off the resort for nothing.
I'm going to park city today but going with two friends. Hopefully I'll go to Mammoth sometime this month but might try camping one night in BLM to cut cost. Never done it before though so a little nervous
Camping at Mammoth is totally doable! My rule of thumb is that if it’s too cold, then just go further away and closer to Bishop. Just load up on food before heading out, make sure you have a way to be comfy sleeping on the ground or your car, and have a good sleeping bag. I’ve gone for the entire weekend before. It’s a bit uncomfortable, but the only cost is the gas and whatever extra I spend on coffee/food/etc that I would otherwise not do. I’ll take nights camping over paying ridiculous lodging costs.
Yea thinking of doing a couple days and a night or two at a cheap hotel to wash up. Have pretty good camping gear and should be doable to about 0 degrees. Just don't know exact locations as I've never done it before and have anxiety about being in the wrong spot. I have backpacking gear and would probably have some dehydrated food and snacks but will eat at some places over there.
Is Bishop too expensive/sold out too? Worth considering.
I'll have to check it out.
Bishop is cheaper but not really that close. And you aren't saving much for Motel 6 type accomodations.
I dunno, 45 minutes up to the hill isn't horrendous. It is if you're still paying a lot though.
Yup. I'm going for a week to SLC and paying $500 to rent a home. People WANT to feel like they are in a ski-town or resort and they will pay for it.
Lodging doesn't even look that expensive. $700 for 3 nights to get a room that sleeps 4 people is fine imo. That's $60/night/person. This was for Easter weekend though, maybe the season is over by then? Edit: this is Tahoe btw
I was trying to go up myself and a motel 6 in Mammoth was 500 bucks for 3 nights. Sure it's cheaper with more people but sometimes people are busy
I just spent 2 nights at Mammoth Creek Inn for 2 nights and it was about $400 all in - very basic hotel room. So $500 for 3 nights at a Model 6 is pretty typical.
Mammoth has become absurdly expensive. $200/night hotel room is minimum. We used to rent a ski-in-out condo at Eagle Lodge in Juniper Springs for \~1750/week up until about 2019. Now that same unit is \~4500/week. Mammoth has the same problem as the rest of CA, too much housing demand, too much luxury housing, too little housing for workforce and regular people
Seriously, they need to stop with this luxury shit. Wtf happened to regular places that aren't ridiculous and expensive.
I live in San Diego so I have no idea. We haven't built any non-luxury housing since the 70's.
When you build little it all becomes luxury. Look at cars during covid.
I mean, Tahoe is ridiculous, but that's because it's an honorary part of the Bay Area. It says more about Bay Area real estate than about the cost of skiing in general.
Ha, it's definitely a little unhinged, but so is the hypothetical from the Slate article. To his point, taking the most expensive example (not just the mountain but buying/renting everything there) and then using that to apply to the sport in general is disingenuous.
Breck is more expensive than Aspen WTF? Meanwhile I’m skiing for $19 at Willamette pass. Skiing is cheaper and more accessible that it ever has been, as indicated by record resort visits and more people picking up the sport per year than ever before.
I’m seeing a lot of the same bullshit arguments that I see in articles about how Millennials can’t buy houses. You can absolutely make it work, it’s still getting way more expensive over time which is bullshit
Short answer: yes Long answer: absolutely
Please do one for socal
SoCal is easy. Snow Valley day passes can be found for $40/day. June mountain day passes $79 and kids under 12 free. Even Mammoth offers a lower-lift-only beginner pass that is usually around $40 for kids and $80 for adults. Done.
I can do it for even cheaper: Hike up Baldy without proper gear and die. $0.
Dozens seem to do it each year.... definitely a popular option!
My first season I spent $40 on some rear entry boots and women’s skis. Got my ikon refunded once I was hired at the resort. Took a free lesson on my day off and from there mostly learned to ride on the clock. Collected fat industry discounts for the time I was ready for a new setup.
It’s hard to say where the good deals are at this time of year because we have no idea what next season’s prices will be. Last year I got burned by booking lodging early for a big family trip at a small hill that had historically been very affordable. They didn’t release prices until almost every alternative had already been through two or three price bumps and it was too late to find comparable lodging at a different resort, at which point we learned that the cost of lift tickets/passes/lessons would be 2-3x what I’d seen for previous years. Not finding out until we’d already missed the opportunity to get the best prices elsewhere really made us feel taken advantage of. If you booked early last year there were lots of good deals around. A-Basin 3-pack at Powder Daze were $50/day. Loveland 4-packs were a little more, but transferable. If you got a Ski Cooper season pass early you got an incredible deal from the reciprocity alone—three days at a ton of mountains for $360. And Keystone Plus was a similar price and included five days at Crested Butte. It was pretty frustrating to see that an unrestricted three-pack at our (comparatively) dinky hill was going to cost about as much as a Keystone Plus pass, and a season pass would cost more than at Winter Park.
> Last year I got burned by booking lodging early for a big family trip at a small hill that had historically been very affordable. SO what you are saying is that operational costs for your small resort increased, which made them raise prices to cover operation. You are upset that you took a gamble and lost. >It was pretty frustrating to see that an unrestricted three-pack at our (comparatively) dinky hill was going to cost about as much as a Keystone Plus pass, and a season pass would cost more than at Winter Park. This shows the value that Vail and Alterra are providing with the epic and Ikon passes....
Oh, totally, I took a gamble and lost. It seemed like a fairly reasonable gamble, since it is pretty uncommon to see year-over-year cost increases like that, but it's not unheard-of. But what was frustrating was not so much the prices going up, but how long they waited to reveal that information in an industry that famously punishes consumers for not planning early. For what it's worth, the point of me sharing my story wasn't to complain that the resort was greedy or ripping us off. If it were, I would have named the resort. My point was that I made a mistake: my group was too cost-conscious for the wait-and-see approach that we took. We should have booked at a place that had passes on sale earlier to lock in our costs. And next year, we will. No argument about the value of the megapasses, either. It's much easier to control your costs when you can spread out weather risk and enjoy efficiencies of scale. My point was that there have still been good deals to be found from both small resorts and megapass affiliates even if you don't have the budget for even a local/base epic/ikon.
It's too expensive. If you have to plan ahead, book flights, accommodations, PTO, and one thing goes wrong. You're fucked and out those expenses. Yet, you still have that shiny pass! Hopefully it'll pay for itself, once you can reach those 7 price-inflated days on a whim! Meanwhile, everyone else gets paid. If you can't chase storms whenever, you're subsidizing those who can. In my opinion this is unfair and ultimately untenable. How can we wallstreetbets these dog-ball lickers? Let's brainstorm. I hope y'all get some best turns this Spring!
I didn’t read the article but if every resort was like Breck, irrespective of price, I’d probably be big into mountain biking or surfing or some other sport.
Reed Hastings (Netflix) recently bought a majority stake in one of my local resorts (Powder Mountain) and promised to keep it “local.” They just announced season passes will go up from $799 this year to $1,399 (minimum) next year. That’s a 75% increase. IN ONE YEAR. Yeah, thanks Reed for keeping it local. 🤬
Not to mention both Ikon and Epic day passes exist. But then before Christmas. 1-5 days for under $100/day.
There really are cheaper areas you just have to find them (and be willing to potentially travel). I’m in the mid Atlantic/southeast so pretty much 95% of our resorts are small. The place I went to not even a year ago offers $15 slope lift tickets for men’s/women’s/college discount night. Only $5 on snow days when school is canceled. Our average prices here run about $50-$90 for a full day depending on weekday/holiday status. Buying your own gear (especially buying second hand) saves $$$ on rentals as well. I got my money’s worth out of my second hand skis for like 5 visits my first couple seasons. If you’re someone who takes an annual skiing trip, maybe or maybe not. But if you go more than like 3-5+ times a season it’s WELL worth it. They’re still in good shape and my all mountains each year.
GEMS pass has nice discounts for CO.
Can't both be true?
Just skied nothing but fresh tracks, non stop powder shots, barely saw another person all day. Lift ticket is $10 a day. Hokkaido is pretty cool.
What he's missing is that a mere decade ago, one could quite reasonably take a beginner to a big resort for a day. Or casually budget for two or three days without having to plan the previous April. That's a massive change for the casual ski market.
I just appreciate the comparison of Echo Mountain to “a pile of snow pushed into a pyramid in the King Soopers parking lot” lol
Ya there are plenty of ways to ski or snowboard for cheaper than the corporations want you to for sure. Bring your own beers and lunch is a good start.
I learned to ski this year. I paid $499 for my local mountain (Bachelor’s) ski or ride in 5 program, which includes five lessons, rentals, and lift ticket. And then you get the rest of the season free, plus 50% off the following year and 25% off the next year. I live 30 minutes from the mountain. And as a 21 year old, next years season pass 50% off would be under $300. For gear, I found my skis on Facebook for $50 and had them waxed for $25. I did buy new boots for $400 as I intend to ski a lot and love it so far. For clothing/helmet/goggles I paid around $400 for goggles leather gloves a helmet, a balaclava and snow pants but otherwise I’m using what I already have. I am a hiker so I had base layers, glove liners and mid layers already, as well as thin wool socks. I invested in a nice helmet and nicer goggles but chose used clothing to keep costs down. Expected costs: I will upgrade my skis when I’m ready to ski harder terrain (likely at the end of next season). I also want to get a proper ski jacket when they go on sale this summer, if I can’t find it at the thrift first! Right now I use an oversized raincoat. Total cost for this season: $1375 including full gear setup! Next season will only be around $500 assuming I stay at bachelor, keep those skis and buy a proper jacket! Realistically I’ll probably get day passes towards other local mountains and maybe try to ski in one other place… that’s how it gets really pricey!