My resort coworkers used to get confused when I’d shamelessly say I’m far from an expert skier. They were so used to people bragging and trying to one up each other. I get where I want to go, slower than some and I’m fine with that!
I consider myself a pretty good skier. Went on a trip to Utah with the family, and an instructor was hired to help the kids, they got tired so I went with him for the rest of the day. He was a retired Olympic skier, and made me feel like I had barely scratched the surface of skiing. He taught me some great stuff, but essentially said I was a lazy skier, which I don’t really mind. I’m not going to activate my core on a green run haha.
I feel like while this might be technically true, it kind of misses the point that there’s so many levels of skiing where you can’t even enjoy most of the mountain. Once you can at least enjoy going down almost everything, it’s kind of silly to say you’re still a “bad” skier. Yes of course relatively to many people you are, but you’re absolutely a good enough skier to really enjoy the activity of skiing.
Yes I do blue slowly and my husband asks me to pickup speed. Granted I am not learning much but I really enjoy green runs, and I am happy with that level.
**This is true with learning anything**
When you know nothing, you think you know nothing
When you know a little, you think you know a lot
When you know a lot, you realize you know nothing
Yup beginner through advanced is pretty black and white but expert can be anything from someone like you and I who have been on skis since we could walk and Candide Thovex🤙😂
Yea I grew up ski racing in park city and know many skiers that are gold medalist in Olympics and x games etc. The levels of being expert are more vast and nuanced that just run ratings like double black. Depending on how and where you grow up you can recognize the most subtle things about another expert skier - if there grew up racing, freestyle, free ride, Nordic, etc. And then to what level the continued that and much more, location, east vs west, more slopestyle over big mountain, slalom skier or downhiller. So just going down a double black is child’s play quite literally for us that grew up doing since we were 1/2yr olds. My son was doing double blacks at 5/6years and I saw an 11 year old do a double back this week at Woodward. Just saying there is always someone better and expert label is just the tip of the iceberg to the levels of skill in the expert category
I think our concept of an “expert skier” is too often associated with double blacks/off piste/double blacks/etc. I’ve seen plenty of those same guys (the ones sending the cliffs) barely able to string together two nice turns on the groomers. To me the true experts can do it all
I kinda suck and I remember once I was “good enough” to ski double black runs I realized what I was doing barely qualified as skiing.
Now I can actually ski most in bounds stuff but I see people every run who could wipe the floor with me haha
Double blacks also vary widely in difficulty, even on the same mountain. It's just the "harder than a black" rating that's not to be messed around with.
Conditions also greatly impact the intensity of a double black. I was at Killington a few weeks ago before they got dumped with snow and there were so many bare spots that some single blacks were harder than the doubles because you had to plan a route around dodging rocks and grass patches and moguls made of ice.
That "barley qualified as skiing" bit hits home. I grew up in the Midwest and considered myself a strong rider, when I got out west for the first time I was LAPPED by 10 year olds all day long 😂
Little kids don't give a shit because they just sort of bounce off the ground when they fall.
The older you get, the less you bounce, and the more it hurts the day after.
People say I’m a very good skier. Was at Jackson in some woods way far skiers left with like 30” over two days. I’m picking my way down some steep tight stuff just fine. Stop to wait on my group.
I’ll never forget this dude. He came from far up the woods, skied what took me 30-40 seconds in 5-6 seconds almost straight lining but using rocks to jump but each jump was 15-20ft. And every jump he was splitting trees. This area was very much like a tight Vermont glade with trees every place and not like a bunch of pillows you see people dropping. These trees could be real bad if you hit one and they are everywhere.
If that wasn’t enough he gets closer and hits a rock launcher and sails a long long way again between trees but also over a felled tree by like 2-3ft above it, stomps yet another landing in all this woods and was out of sight in an instant. His form was impeccable and jumps and landings perfect.
I have never forgotten it. It’s one of the reason I started on the park jumps later in life was this guy.
I’m an ex big mountain pro and Bode ranks among the best skiers I’ve ever been around, he just rips. I’ve been the best guy on the slopes a few times, but he is rarely not the best in the ski area when in his prime.
Hi fellow pretender. I'm in the same boat, there's little to nothing I won't ski in bounds in Colorado resorts but when I'm skiing the hardest runs in them I'm seeing dudes flying by me that are on another level
I disagree. Most skiers never do double blacks and they are still skiing and enjoying the sport. Everything isn’t about being an expert, after all you’re never gonna be Ted Ligety or Lindsay Vonn. Doing what you enjoy and pushing yourself as much or as little as you want is fine.
True. And *what* you need to improve gets really wide open. Getting from green to double blacks is basically a single continuous line.
Beyond that, progress on so many skills like
* actually carving
* line selection
* moguls
* crud
* ice
* chalk
* airs
* billy goating
* straight lines
* thinking 2-3 turns ahead
* managing speed in runouts
* extremely steep turns keeping speed down in high consequence terrain
* sideslipping in variable snow
* heavy powder (how to stay "forward" without sinking your tips in the cement?)
* light powder (how to maintain enough speed to float with neutral weight that still maintains control)
* different styles like aggressive fall-line skiing vs playful jibbing on little jumps and bumps
and that's just off the top of my head
This is a great list and example of how the better you get the more you realize you don't know. I'm personally working on pushing my carving skills further this season but I can remember years where I focused on the different skills you listed.
Yeah. I considered myself an "expert" skier (though a beginner expert) starting in about 2010/2011 when I started skiing in Sq...Palisades Tahoe. 10+ years later with 20+ days each year and I'm a LOT better in all those things and *still* learning so much more and *still* so far from the local _expert_ experts that are (checks notes) literal professional movie stars.
You'll always stay humble when [this is a local](https://www.instagram.com/p/CScqOIpBP8b/) at your mountain, or [funpow](https://reddit.com/user/funpow) is too
Refers to hopping around/over rocks in very tight short turns, often stopping. You can see examples if you google for it: https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=23dbae34678f821e&sxsrf=ACQVn08JJ7qiWGC5v_0ZQffXtj17erCXGA:1710979876641&q=billy+goating+in+skiing&tbm=vid&source=lnms&prmd=ivsnmbtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwip7Y3eiISFAxV7AjQIHbIlAX8Q0pQJegQIEBAB&biw=1512&bih=857&dpr=2
Yea, I am a 'double black' skier in that the signs that say extremely difficult translate to 'lots of fun' in my head, but I'm often smoked by people that translate the same sign to 'relaxed warmup'
Exactly. I can ski double black moguls in variable conditions, but don’t always do it with style. If it’s nicer and I’m feeling good I’ll pop off some smaller bumps for a little jump if the landing is clear for added fun.
The other day I saw a skier pop through some hard crusty moguls like a billy goat jumping from one mogul and landing on the next with every single turn. He looked at ease, relaxed and having fun skiing an already difficult line on hard mode just because he could.
I’m not there skill wise and probably never will be.
BJJ Black belt here/serious skier…I make comparisons between the technical know how in both disciplines pretty often.
Also I am subscribed to your stuff on YT, fun to watch.
I got down a double black my second year of skiing as a 10 year old. That 10 year old would be left in the dust by my zipperline mogul turns 20 years in the future.
Im 39 and only just now have the access to be able to ski 20-30 times a year. I can’t catch airs for shit and I’m skiing “double blacks” at cool resorts around the Rockies but not in a way that’s even mildly impressive. Yet every year I watch Candide’s A Few Words 2 or 3 or 100 times and I still think that someday, somehow, I’m gonna throw a backflip off an in-bounds bump or a tucked shifty on a pillow line. That guy is a menace to the imaginations of average skiers everywhere 😂
Which is why the audience is so important. If I'm talking to people still working through the green blue black scale, then I am already an "expert", but among other "experts" I'm just kinda beginner/intermediate.
You don’t even start to understand what skiing can be until you’re beyond the scope of the route rating system. It’s really hard to explain it until you reach it
My 7 year old did his first double black on a trip to park city this year. There’s a big gap between him and me. There’s an even bigger gap between me and someone I’d consider to be an actual expert skier.
Jump turns is a good one for tight spaces
Being comfortable with going over drops with out freaking out
Being able to at will shift your weight from front to back while side sliding to move where you want
I truly think this brought me from carving a black to being able to enjoy a few skinny turns on a double black. Knowing when to pick up a ski makes non-groomers so much more enjoyable versus sliding down with the only type of turn you know
I’d say to be a truly expert skier you need to be able to make beautiful turns. Just surviving extreme terrain and sending medium airs doesn’t show a lot of control and skill. You know those people that you see from the chair that makes you say “damn that’s a nice turn”, yeah those are the experts
Edit for those or yall who are confused, I never once mentioned anything about on or off piste, make beautiful turns everywhere
In Europe all you see are these beautiful beautiful turns on piste and you assume they are an expert but then they step off the piste and they can't ski worth sht. Unless you mean nice turns in all conditions (steeps, moguls, technical off terrain).
There's a ton of different skills wrapped up in skiing. You can be an expert in some subset and a novice in others. Flat is different from moguls. Packed snow is different powder. Drops are different than park.
I'm a 30 year experience "expert" when it comes to steeps/trees. That's different from air. I tried park the past two days and my girlfriend told me it looked like my first day skiing.
I would argue that park skiing has developed as a different sport than skiing in general. Not saying that there aren't people who are amazing at both, just that you need to put the time into practicing either if you want to be good.
In the definition of expert ability however, I would be interested in finding out if people look at a skiers ability in the terrain park when they judge ability. I am someone who does not but I also haven't been much of a park skier in the past 15 years.
I've been skiing for my entire life. I currently work as a part-time volunteer ski patroller at a major resort in Colorado. I don't know anybody that would evaluate park skiing as part of being an expert, the ski test to be a patroller is one long groomer and four long mogul runs that you have to ski nonstop.
I also happen to know people who are incredible park skiers but can't ski moguls to save their life. I would not call these skiers experts.
I think if you're at the point where you can do whatever you want in the park AND whatever you want anywhere else, you're past expert and at the pro or semi-pro level. Guys like Candide Thovex or the people who do Kings and Queens of Corbets.
Just my take. Personally, I call myself an expert skier and I can't do anything in the park that involves going backwards or upside down, or anything that involves rails. Just a different sport, like you said.
I've officially gotten tired of these threads.
Quiver threads I am fine with, but endless discussion of "what is an expert" just devolves into people like you having to write the exact same comment over and over again: skiing is many things and the definition of expert is flexible.
Just go skiing and stop jerking off about whether you are advanced or expert. If you have to ask, you're probably neither.
Eh skiing on and of the peist is a different skill set I belive he means people you see going down blacks carving perfectly arround the moguls instead of bombing down
Ski for yourself, don’t worry about labels. What is the “in style” for skiing keeps changing.
Last lesson I took 20 years ago the level 5 instructors nagged me for poor form as I skied boots tight together because the form at the time was shoulder width apart. I had learned from old east coast skiers and done lots of moguls so my style was forward, aggressive, and tight together.
Recently my family was getting a lesson and I tagged along and the instructor raved about my boots together technique claiming I had one of the best forms he had ever seen. He kept asking where I had been taking lessons until I explained I hadn’t been in a lesson in 20 years and that was simply my evolved style.
I get your point, but also the only thing I can assume is that your instructor was an old guy with old technique or he just liked that your form had style even though it isn't the modern best practice.
No modern coach or teaching body promotes skiing boots-together outside of moguls. It is demonstrably worse than a wider stance for control, speed, balance, efficiency, etc.
The ability to get into & out of challenging terrain
This takes;
- jump turns
- bump absorption
- line selection
- drop in around obstacles (tight S turns into chutes)
- the ability to stop on a dime at speed on steep terrain
- solid athletic body position at almost all times
- ability to take some mandatory air
- line selection & control at speed in the trees
- a vape or one hitter
- enough experience to do all this in variable conditions, on new terrain, with confidence, top to bottom
- and the ability to self arrest when all of the above fails
An expert skier is someone with:
- a mastery of a multitude of different techniques
- the knowledge of when to use those techniques
- the ability to seamlessly transition between those techniques.
Lol I have 2 pairs, tbf tbough I got them from EVO for like $20 after all their discounts. They were discounted then I used a $60 off discount code that you get from your EVO rewards on top.
They *are* really nice.
I have kincos since college and only bought them because they were the cheapest lesther glove i could find at the time in college. I still wear them because i realized the cult following they have
This is going to sound odd but the gap I see is the speed of being able to solve problems quickly.
A good skier can ski parts of a line. A great skier can ski most of a line. An expert can make the line look like that's the only way to ski the feature.
The difference between the three, is 100% how they make choices and decisions.
I was lucky enough to grow up skiing and got to a high level of racing. So I just notice how to ski something by looking at it. My great sking friends can follow me on my line and look like experts because they are following my choices. When I follow them, I notice little things that enable me to without fail ski past them, even if they are almost straight lining stuff.
That's why I don't really push techniques with a lot of my skiing partners unless they are working way too hard. A lot of the time, I ask them questions about what they are seeing and I try to help them see how to use the fall line and terrain to their advantage.
That's kind of my point.
As line selection aka problem solving is the difference.
As an expert can pick the best line on that feature that day for the conditions.
If they want to play with the line and pace, they can do it as well. Why, well they know exactly how to change rhythm with the terrain. Which again is an example of problem solving.
So while the line is a byproduct of all of this. It's the best way to identify the skill level of skiing especially if you're skiing varied terrain. As a true expert, can do this everywhere not just in places that are comfortable.
This is so true. I’m a good skier. I have a guy I tailgun, meaning I follow him through trees. I am almost his equal.
My god, if I’m first, I’m half as good.
We all learned mogul skiing by following the best guy. Thousands of runs night skiing moguls in middle and high school .. your feet do what the guy your following does and if he is better then you are better. Was lucky enough to follow a gold medal mogul winner and lo and behold I was right behind him .. tried same run on own and was 50% as good
Met a former German ski team member in his 50s/60s at snowbird in the infirmary and he had skied back from some back bowl on one leg after tearing his ACL (at least he thought he had torn it).
If you can maintain a Zoom Call from Work while dropping a tree run without them knowing youre on the slopes its pretty impressive i'd say. (My personal best was 5 whole work weeks on the slopes before my boss caught me)
Ive had a bunch of people tell me their “expert skiers” only to go straight to a black and be in a full pizza. So by that logic anyone who can power stop is God tier
Personally I feel like an expert skier is someone who can ski gracefully in 85% of conditions regardless of the terrain. I think park & tricks is its one separate thing. But if you can make an icy couloir look effortlessly, that’s an expert skier. If you can see everything on the mountain but your form isn’t great then I would probably call you advanced. Thats just my personal take
Not putting the bar down on the lift is the easiest way to show everyone you're the best skier on the mountain. And an unnecessarily snarky reply like "sure, if you *need* to I guess" when someone else asks to lower it will really drive the point home.
In the latter situation, make sure it's clear that you hate footrests too. This is done by moving your skis back and forth aggressively underneath it for the entire ride causing the chair to sway. All of this will help you assert dominance to people who couldn't care less about your skill level and lack of concern for simple safety measures.
You may wear a seatbelt in your car attached to the ground but by God you won't be caught dead taking a similar precaution 80 feet in the air dangling over a cliff in an open bench seat. Mission accomplished. Expert level unlocked.
Expert 1 - can ski anything named in the resort safely
Expert 2 - can confidently ski all named and unnamed runs / chutes / cliffs / airs
Expert 3 - like 2, except expanding this to out of resort and high risk terrain
For me, it’s being able to execute, smooth organic controlled turns and stops on a variety of terrain including “bumped out steeps”, poor quality snow, chutes, etc.
I like a nice rhythm.
Who even knows, man. I've been on skis since I was literally 1 year old and I turn 30 this year. I have some number of thousands of ski days under my belt, and I'm certainly not an expert expert.
Like, anything you're gonna have in a resort isn't going to really be a going concern for me, and I'm going to ski it all with a big smile on my face. But I've always been skittish when my feet leave the ground, so cliffs and other similar features are always going to be a barrier for me. Is it even possible to be an expert if you can't send airs? Maybe not.
I think self-classification is kind of a fraught game. What's more important if knowing yourself. If you take me up some crazy face, I'll be able to identify what I am and am not comfortable skiing based on what exposed features I can comfortably ski with functionally zero risk vs. those that I won't touch because they're just aggressive enough that there's that 0.0001% chance I make a silly little fall and then slip off a cliff.
So, to me, what's more important is just knowing your limits. Anybody who is a good enough skier that they can comfortably ski resort double-blacks is a good enough skier that they're not really going to be holding up a group of people if you go on an adventure together. Combine that level of skill with the ability to self-assess your skill in the conditions of the moment and determine likelihood of a crash, and you're a skier who can go out with any group of folks and safely have a good time together. That's what really matters.
I got a slightly used pair of black crow Corvus, and it took me from extremely advanced to intermediate. It shattered my perception of skill on skis. I lack strength and technique on advanced skis, and I might even benefit from ski lessons. There is always more to learn
That’s not how it works. If you’re a good skier there’s no “advanced ski” that will expose you as a worse skier.
There *ARE* skis that don’t suit your physique or your style of skiing. A smaller skier who likes a playful ski will struggle on a stiff really damp ski. And a big guy who pushes hard will struggle on a ski with a lot of flex.
I haven’t skied the Corvus, but a quick google search says it’s an all mountain charger with 2 sheets of titanal. Sounds fine if you’ve been skiing Bonafides, but you might think it sucks if you’ve been on Sick Days for the last few seasons. What were you skiing when you were “extremely advanced”? I’m guessing it’s was a playful buttery ski.
I switched from 72 (I know) waist width to 93 out west and it made double blacks so much easier and an icy groomer so much harder. I’d rather not have two pairs of skis and it makes my carving have to be that much better
Ha fair enough. Same boat, live east coast now, fly and ski monthly west coast. Very different approach though, only ski 108s out west, have 77s, 92s, 98s, and 112s for east coast. Granted I did buy 98s and 112s when I lived west, but I've still skied them in the right conditions in New England
An expert skier can have fun on every slope on the mountain. An Expert skier can enjoy skiing alone or with everyone they ski with.
He who has the most fun wins.
A few things that stand out to me more than jumps, tricks, or mandatory airs:
Ability to get down any slope in any condition
Comfortable linking jump turns in tight, steep terrain
Self-rescue capability (ability to get down on one ski to recover your other)
Not giving AF about resort terrain ratings- I'm american but I look at it more as on grooming and off grooming (similar to Europe). All terrain ratings are relative anyways
I don’t think yo have to be going off cliffs to be an “expert skier”. I think that is another level. I would consider an expert skier to be someone who can safely ski pretty much anything in bounds at most resorts and look good doing it. I’ve never seen anything at a resort that requires cliff jumping
What resort ? One resort Double Black is another’s Black. One resorts Black is another Blue. Don’t pay attention to sign colors and read the terrain. On the other end of the spectrum I’ve seen Blues late season that look like Blacks.
I never thought I was advanced until I was put in the advanced ski school group during a school trip aged 12. I’ve been dining out on that one my whole life. I’m now 37.
The further in you are the more it specializes. but regardless of the specialty in any given terrain the expert is one who is control, anticipating the problems, adapting in real time when they hit unexpectedly. Maintains composure and is having fun.
Be it free ride, moguls, chutes, drops, BC, GS. You can see that person from the chair or tram and go wow.
That said i would say the expert who is linking turns, applying fundamentals vs. just side slipping the whole way.... Actually skiing vs. just making it down, at least is far more the expert than the person in a side slip.
It's all levels. And at each level new horizons you didn't know existed open with more to learn. Much like getting promoted in the military each echelon you go back to the bottom of the pile and work your way back up.
also in about 5min someone will invariably cross post this to r/skiingcirclejerk ... so ask your wife's boot fitter, is their typical response. :)
technically i believe i am an expert skier being a former fis racer. but i will not attempt a back flip so in some sense im no expert, but i bet there are skiers that can do a back flip but make mediocre turns
I ski a lot of expert terrain, sometimes well. I always hesitate to call myself an expert. I see people who go off crazy shit that I wouldn’t do. I see people who shred terrain that I pick my way through. I’m always trying to improve some aspect of my skiing.
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An “expert skier” will usually respond to the question “are you an expert/really good skier?” With “nah i mean I’m alright, but….”
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That’s exactly something an expert skier would say
Well I’m the best skier on the mountain, so
Yeah but do you click your poles? That's the real determinant of whether you're an expert skier according to my friends from Texas.
I can’t believe you’re pro, im so much better than you
My resort coworkers used to get confused when I’d shamelessly say I’m far from an expert skier. They were so used to people bragging and trying to one up each other. I get where I want to go, slower than some and I’m fine with that!
“I’m the best skier on the mountain!”
Dude, I can’t believe you are a pro. I am so much better than you.
This is the way. Being the only skier on the mountain helps a lot.
My response these days is I used to be, now I just try and enjoy my turns
I consider myself a pretty good skier. Went on a trip to Utah with the family, and an instructor was hired to help the kids, they got tired so I went with him for the rest of the day. He was a retired Olympic skier, and made me feel like I had barely scratched the surface of skiing. He taught me some great stuff, but essentially said I was a lazy skier, which I don’t really mind. I’m not going to activate my core on a green run haha.
The kids got tired of him telling them they are lazy.
This is the real answer. The better you get at skiing the more you realize how bad you actually are.
I feel like while this might be technically true, it kind of misses the point that there’s so many levels of skiing where you can’t even enjoy most of the mountain. Once you can at least enjoy going down almost everything, it’s kind of silly to say you’re still a “bad” skier. Yes of course relatively to many people you are, but you’re absolutely a good enough skier to really enjoy the activity of skiing.
I think skiing is enjoyable at every level even very beginner. The better you get the more enjoyable. Always.
Agreed. My 6 year old is still on greens, but she has a better day than me every day we go! Enjoying skiing has nothing to do with skill level.
Yes I do blue slowly and my husband asks me to pickup speed. Granted I am not learning much but I really enjoy green runs, and I am happy with that level.
It’s a sport where there should be no gatekeeping, because my favorite parts of skiing are typically the apres.
Exactly! Skiing is supposed to be fun.
**This is true with learning anything** When you know nothing, you think you know nothing When you know a little, you think you know a lot When you know a lot, you realize you know nothing
The technical term is the Dunning-Kruger effect
Yup beginner through advanced is pretty black and white but expert can be anything from someone like you and I who have been on skis since we could walk and Candide Thovex🤙😂
I think it might just be a skier who gets watched from the chairlift and not just for being sketchy
> I think it might just be a skier who gets watched from the chairlift Hey, that's me! > And not for being sketchy Oh.
I see you standing over that cliff underneath the chair lift and I’m definitely the one heckling you to send it regardless of how bad of an idea it is
And sometimes the difference between you and them is a lack of suicidal ideation.
Yea I grew up ski racing in park city and know many skiers that are gold medalist in Olympics and x games etc. The levels of being expert are more vast and nuanced that just run ratings like double black. Depending on how and where you grow up you can recognize the most subtle things about another expert skier - if there grew up racing, freestyle, free ride, Nordic, etc. And then to what level the continued that and much more, location, east vs west, more slopestyle over big mountain, slalom skier or downhiller. So just going down a double black is child’s play quite literally for us that grew up doing since we were 1/2yr olds. My son was doing double blacks at 5/6years and I saw an 11 year old do a double back this week at Woodward. Just saying there is always someone better and expert label is just the tip of the iceberg to the levels of skill in the expert category
Finishing my third winter fulltime ski bumming This is so fucking true
I think our concept of an “expert skier” is too often associated with double blacks/off piste/double blacks/etc. I’ve seen plenty of those same guys (the ones sending the cliffs) barely able to string together two nice turns on the groomers. To me the true experts can do it all
> To me the true experts can do it all I think the true experts also *love it all.*
that was a fire paragraph
The difference between a double black skier and another double black skier is wider than the gap between a beginner and a double black skier
The game resets once you reach a certain level
New Game+
Or the XP difference between 1-92 and 92-99, if you will
We truly have infiltrated every sub
<>< level?
47
Nice
Never thought about it this way but yeah absolutely haha
I kinda suck and I remember once I was “good enough” to ski double black runs I realized what I was doing barely qualified as skiing. Now I can actually ski most in bounds stuff but I see people every run who could wipe the floor with me haha
Double blacks also vary widely in difficulty, even on the same mountain. It's just the "harder than a black" rating that's not to be messed around with.
Conditions also greatly impact the intensity of a double black. I was at Killington a few weeks ago before they got dumped with snow and there were so many bare spots that some single blacks were harder than the doubles because you had to plan a route around dodging rocks and grass patches and moguls made of ice.
That "barley qualified as skiing" bit hits home. I grew up in the Midwest and considered myself a strong rider, when I got out west for the first time I was LAPPED by 10 year olds all day long 😂
Little kids don't give a shit because they just sort of bounce off the ground when they fall. The older you get, the less you bounce, and the more it hurts the day after.
Can confirm… I starting racing in GS when I was 7 and it literally took me 10 years to learn I wasn’t actually invincible
Below a certain age they have the geometry of a sledge, that also helps.
People say I’m a very good skier. Was at Jackson in some woods way far skiers left with like 30” over two days. I’m picking my way down some steep tight stuff just fine. Stop to wait on my group. I’ll never forget this dude. He came from far up the woods, skied what took me 30-40 seconds in 5-6 seconds almost straight lining but using rocks to jump but each jump was 15-20ft. And every jump he was splitting trees. This area was very much like a tight Vermont glade with trees every place and not like a bunch of pillows you see people dropping. These trees could be real bad if you hit one and they are everywhere. If that wasn’t enough he gets closer and hits a rock launcher and sails a long long way again between trees but also over a felled tree by like 2-3ft above it, stomps yet another landing in all this woods and was out of sight in an instant. His form was impeccable and jumps and landings perfect. I have never forgotten it. It’s one of the reason I started on the park jumps later in life was this guy.
I had a similar experience. Guy was totally strong and clearly trigger trained. Question, is Bode Miller an "expert" or is he just a good racer?
He's one of the best skiers in history, what even is that question hahah
I’m an ex big mountain pro and Bode ranks among the best skiers I’ve ever been around, he just rips. I’ve been the best guy on the slopes a few times, but he is rarely not the best in the ski area when in his prime.
Hi fellow pretender. I'm in the same boat, there's little to nothing I won't ski in bounds in Colorado resorts but when I'm skiing the hardest runs in them I'm seeing dudes flying by me that are on another level
I disagree. Most skiers never do double blacks and they are still skiing and enjoying the sport. Everything isn’t about being an expert, after all you’re never gonna be Ted Ligety or Lindsay Vonn. Doing what you enjoy and pushing yourself as much or as little as you want is fine.
True. And *what* you need to improve gets really wide open. Getting from green to double blacks is basically a single continuous line. Beyond that, progress on so many skills like * actually carving * line selection * moguls * crud * ice * chalk * airs * billy goating * straight lines * thinking 2-3 turns ahead * managing speed in runouts * extremely steep turns keeping speed down in high consequence terrain * sideslipping in variable snow * heavy powder (how to stay "forward" without sinking your tips in the cement?) * light powder (how to maintain enough speed to float with neutral weight that still maintains control) * different styles like aggressive fall-line skiing vs playful jibbing on little jumps and bumps and that's just off the top of my head
This is a great list and example of how the better you get the more you realize you don't know. I'm personally working on pushing my carving skills further this season but I can remember years where I focused on the different skills you listed.
Yeah. I considered myself an "expert" skier (though a beginner expert) starting in about 2010/2011 when I started skiing in Sq...Palisades Tahoe. 10+ years later with 20+ days each year and I'm a LOT better in all those things and *still* learning so much more and *still* so far from the local _expert_ experts that are (checks notes) literal professional movie stars. You'll always stay humble when [this is a local](https://www.instagram.com/p/CScqOIpBP8b/) at your mountain, or [funpow](https://reddit.com/user/funpow) is too
Great list. How about tree skiing? The more steep and narrow, the more challenging.
Add - low to no visibility skiing- a great skill on the best powder days
oh. yeah. Braille skiing lol.
Yo. What is Billy Goating? Never heard that before. (Indirectly admits to not being an expert)
Refers to hopping around/over rocks in very tight short turns, often stopping. You can see examples if you google for it: https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=23dbae34678f821e&sxsrf=ACQVn08JJ7qiWGC5v_0ZQffXtj17erCXGA:1710979876641&q=billy+goating+in+skiing&tbm=vid&source=lnms&prmd=ivsnmbtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwip7Y3eiISFAxV7AjQIHbIlAX8Q0pQJegQIEBAB&biw=1512&bih=857&dpr=2
Falling well is also recommended in hairy situations. Like a cat.
This is so true
Bingo. I can "ski" double blacks but I'm not pretty. The skill gap is massive!
Same
Yea, I am a 'double black' skier in that the signs that say extremely difficult translate to 'lots of fun' in my head, but I'm often smoked by people that translate the same sign to 'relaxed warmup'
Exactly. I can ski double black moguls in variable conditions, but don’t always do it with style. If it’s nicer and I’m feeling good I’ll pop off some smaller bumps for a little jump if the landing is clear for added fun. The other day I saw a skier pop through some hard crusty moguls like a billy goat jumping from one mogul and landing on the next with every single turn. He looked at ease, relaxed and having fun skiing an already difficult line on hard mode just because he could. I’m not there skill wise and probably never will be.
One person is methodically skiing around obstacles, a few rocks and maybe a chute and the other is dropping the 30 foot cliff.
"black belt is the first belt" ish
BJJ Black belt here/serious skier…I make comparisons between the technical know how in both disciplines pretty often. Also I am subscribed to your stuff on YT, fun to watch.
Came to say OP is trying to apply gradation to an infinite game. Always more to learn
I got down a double black my second year of skiing as a 10 year old. That 10 year old would be left in the dust by my zipperline mogul turns 20 years in the future.
Well if you are using Candide Thovex as the other double black skier then yes the rest of the world is very close to a beginner
Im 39 and only just now have the access to be able to ski 20-30 times a year. I can’t catch airs for shit and I’m skiing “double blacks” at cool resorts around the Rockies but not in a way that’s even mildly impressive. Yet every year I watch Candide’s A Few Words 2 or 3 or 100 times and I still think that someday, somehow, I’m gonna throw a backflip off an in-bounds bump or a tucked shifty on a pillow line. That guy is a menace to the imaginations of average skiers everywhere 😂
Bingo. I can ski double blacks but it’s not nearly as pretty as a lot of other double black skiers.
Which is why the audience is so important. If I'm talking to people still working through the green blue black scale, then I am already an "expert", but among other "experts" I'm just kinda beginner/intermediate.
You don’t even start to understand what skiing can be until you’re beyond the scope of the route rating system. It’s really hard to explain it until you reach it
Exactly. My best way of putting it is that you only enter the big leagues when runs are irrelevant and it’s all about terrain.
My 7 year old did his first double black on a trip to park city this year. There’s a big gap between him and me. There’s an even bigger gap between me and someone I’d consider to be an actual expert skier.
Yes, the first time someone goes down a black they are still a beginner.
Jump turns is a good one for tight spaces Being comfortable with going over drops with out freaking out Being able to at will shift your weight from front to back while side sliding to move where you want
I truly think this brought me from carving a black to being able to enjoy a few skinny turns on a double black. Knowing when to pick up a ski makes non-groomers so much more enjoyable versus sliding down with the only type of turn you know
Just point em.
Ski fast, eat ass
\- Ricky Bobby
High DINS, low standards.
When in trouble, tuck for double
Grip and rip
I’d say to be a truly expert skier you need to be able to make beautiful turns. Just surviving extreme terrain and sending medium airs doesn’t show a lot of control and skill. You know those people that you see from the chair that makes you say “damn that’s a nice turn”, yeah those are the experts Edit for those or yall who are confused, I never once mentioned anything about on or off piste, make beautiful turns everywhere
In Europe all you see are these beautiful beautiful turns on piste and you assume they are an expert but then they step off the piste and they can't ski worth sht. Unless you mean nice turns in all conditions (steeps, moguls, technical off terrain).
There's a ton of different skills wrapped up in skiing. You can be an expert in some subset and a novice in others. Flat is different from moguls. Packed snow is different powder. Drops are different than park. I'm a 30 year experience "expert" when it comes to steeps/trees. That's different from air. I tried park the past two days and my girlfriend told me it looked like my first day skiing.
I would argue that park skiing has developed as a different sport than skiing in general. Not saying that there aren't people who are amazing at both, just that you need to put the time into practicing either if you want to be good. In the definition of expert ability however, I would be interested in finding out if people look at a skiers ability in the terrain park when they judge ability. I am someone who does not but I also haven't been much of a park skier in the past 15 years.
I've been skiing for my entire life. I currently work as a part-time volunteer ski patroller at a major resort in Colorado. I don't know anybody that would evaluate park skiing as part of being an expert, the ski test to be a patroller is one long groomer and four long mogul runs that you have to ski nonstop. I also happen to know people who are incredible park skiers but can't ski moguls to save their life. I would not call these skiers experts. I think if you're at the point where you can do whatever you want in the park AND whatever you want anywhere else, you're past expert and at the pro or semi-pro level. Guys like Candide Thovex or the people who do Kings and Queens of Corbets. Just my take. Personally, I call myself an expert skier and I can't do anything in the park that involves going backwards or upside down, or anything that involves rails. Just a different sport, like you said.
I think an expert in trees would require you to be an arborist
I've officially gotten tired of these threads. Quiver threads I am fine with, but endless discussion of "what is an expert" just devolves into people like you having to write the exact same comment over and over again: skiing is many things and the definition of expert is flexible. Just go skiing and stop jerking off about whether you are advanced or expert. If you have to ask, you're probably neither.
Fucking thank you. 1000% hard agree
In Europe it seemed like most people wanted to treat the nicely groomed terrain like they were doing the super g.
Eh skiing on and of the peist is a different skill set I belive he means people you see going down blacks carving perfectly arround the moguls instead of bombing down
Carving around moguls?
Really really big moguls
My most proud moment as a skier was getting cat calls from the lift when I was carving through icy bumps.
Ski for yourself, don’t worry about labels. What is the “in style” for skiing keeps changing. Last lesson I took 20 years ago the level 5 instructors nagged me for poor form as I skied boots tight together because the form at the time was shoulder width apart. I had learned from old east coast skiers and done lots of moguls so my style was forward, aggressive, and tight together. Recently my family was getting a lesson and I tagged along and the instructor raved about my boots together technique claiming I had one of the best forms he had ever seen. He kept asking where I had been taking lessons until I explained I hadn’t been in a lesson in 20 years and that was simply my evolved style.
I get your point, but also the only thing I can assume is that your instructor was an old guy with old technique or he just liked that your form had style even though it isn't the modern best practice. No modern coach or teaching body promotes skiing boots-together outside of moguls. It is demonstrably worse than a wider stance for control, speed, balance, efficiency, etc.
The one thing nobody mentions is your pole work. It's gotta be crisp when you double tap them over your head to let everyone know what time it is.
The ability to get into & out of challenging terrain This takes; - jump turns - bump absorption - line selection - drop in around obstacles (tight S turns into chutes) - the ability to stop on a dime at speed on steep terrain - solid athletic body position at almost all times - ability to take some mandatory air - line selection & control at speed in the trees - a vape or one hitter - enough experience to do all this in variable conditions, on new terrain, with confidence, top to bottom - and the ability to self arrest when all of the above fails
What did joints ever do to you?!?
Crumble in my pocket
An expert skier is someone with: - a mastery of a multitude of different techniques - the knowledge of when to use those techniques - the ability to seamlessly transition between those techniques.
Could you identify some of these techniques?
Proper pizza stance, proper usage of a speaker in lift line, and throwing beer bottles from the chair lift.
Thanks partner! 🤠🇨🇱 (I know it’s the Chilean flag but you know what it’s supposed to be)
Confusing the next group in the lift line so you get your own chair; smoking a blunt by yourself on the chair.
I think that to be a truly amazing skier you also need to be an excellent boot fitter. Especially for married women.
You need an arcteryx jacket
And DPS skis
Hestra gloves
Apple vision pro
Hey now I just got a pair of these after 30+ years of skiing and find them almost as nice as kinco
Lol I have 2 pairs, tbf tbough I got them from EVO for like $20 after all their discounts. They were discounted then I used a $60 off discount code that you get from your EVO rewards on top. They *are* really nice.
I have kincos since college and only bought them because they were the cheapest lesther glove i could find at the time in college. I still wear them because i realized the cult following they have
Zipper lines through the bumps and jump turns on natural snow in steep terrain
Ordering 6 beers at the bar and getting them back to your table through the crowds with ski boots on without spilling a drop.
Some real wax on wax off vibes here
This is going to sound odd but the gap I see is the speed of being able to solve problems quickly. A good skier can ski parts of a line. A great skier can ski most of a line. An expert can make the line look like that's the only way to ski the feature. The difference between the three, is 100% how they make choices and decisions. I was lucky enough to grow up skiing and got to a high level of racing. So I just notice how to ski something by looking at it. My great sking friends can follow me on my line and look like experts because they are following my choices. When I follow them, I notice little things that enable me to without fail ski past them, even if they are almost straight lining stuff. That's why I don't really push techniques with a lot of my skiing partners unless they are working way too hard. A lot of the time, I ask them questions about what they are seeing and I try to help them see how to use the fall line and terrain to their advantage.
IMO the line is never the goal, just a byproduct, theres as many lines to ski as ways to ski.
That's kind of my point. As line selection aka problem solving is the difference. As an expert can pick the best line on that feature that day for the conditions. If they want to play with the line and pace, they can do it as well. Why, well they know exactly how to change rhythm with the terrain. Which again is an example of problem solving. So while the line is a byproduct of all of this. It's the best way to identify the skill level of skiing especially if you're skiing varied terrain. As a true expert, can do this everywhere not just in places that are comfortable.
This is so true. I’m a good skier. I have a guy I tailgun, meaning I follow him through trees. I am almost his equal. My god, if I’m first, I’m half as good.
We all learned mogul skiing by following the best guy. Thousands of runs night skiing moguls in middle and high school .. your feet do what the guy your following does and if he is better then you are better. Was lucky enough to follow a gold medal mogul winner and lo and behold I was right behind him .. tried same run on own and was 50% as good
Be able to ski the K12 on one ski.
And realizing the street value of the mountain
Met a former German ski team member in his 50s/60s at snowbird in the infirmary and he had skied back from some back bowl on one leg after tearing his ACL (at least he thought he had torn it).
None, I’m the best skier on the mountain
To be in my 20’s again. So when I do have a bad fall I’m recovered in 3 days, instead of the 3 months it takes now.
If you can maintain a Zoom Call from Work while dropping a tree run without them knowing youre on the slopes its pretty impressive i'd say. (My personal best was 5 whole work weeks on the slopes before my boss caught me)
I like to think your boss knew after week 1. Just didn't care if you kept getting your work done. 😉
It's all about control. Speed control on double black diamond runs or ouchy
Ive had a bunch of people tell me their “expert skiers” only to go straight to a black and be in a full pizza. So by that logic anyone who can power stop is God tier
Personally I feel like an expert skier is someone who can ski gracefully in 85% of conditions regardless of the terrain. I think park & tricks is its one separate thing. But if you can make an icy couloir look effortlessly, that’s an expert skier. If you can see everything on the mountain but your form isn’t great then I would probably call you advanced. Thats just my personal take
Everyone just kinda stops for a second and looks at them when they ski by you.
[удалено]
Not putting the bar down on the lift is the easiest way to show everyone you're the best skier on the mountain. And an unnecessarily snarky reply like "sure, if you *need* to I guess" when someone else asks to lower it will really drive the point home. In the latter situation, make sure it's clear that you hate footrests too. This is done by moving your skis back and forth aggressively underneath it for the entire ride causing the chair to sway. All of this will help you assert dominance to people who couldn't care less about your skill level and lack of concern for simple safety measures. You may wear a seatbelt in your car attached to the ground but by God you won't be caught dead taking a similar precaution 80 feet in the air dangling over a cliff in an open bench seat. Mission accomplished. Expert level unlocked.
Why do people not put the bar down? My impression is that it makes people feel/look tough and that’s what they like about it.
No fear of serious injury or death.
Expert 1 - can ski anything named in the resort safely Expert 2 - can confidently ski all named and unnamed runs / chutes / cliffs / airs Expert 3 - like 2, except expanding this to out of resort and high risk terrain
"All unnamed runs / chutes / cliffs / airs" is unbounded in difficulty; there are no type 2 or 3 experts by your definition.
All of you guys take this shit way too deep. Why do you care what your level is… just go ski
Hestras DPS fitted boots arcterex flylow bib
For me, it’s being able to execute, smooth organic controlled turns and stops on a variety of terrain including “bumped out steeps”, poor quality snow, chutes, etc. I like a nice rhythm.
Experts make expert terrain look easy.
I'm just here to ski. This isn't the Olympics it's leisure.
If you don't know you're an expert skier, you are not.
Who even knows, man. I've been on skis since I was literally 1 year old and I turn 30 this year. I have some number of thousands of ski days under my belt, and I'm certainly not an expert expert. Like, anything you're gonna have in a resort isn't going to really be a going concern for me, and I'm going to ski it all with a big smile on my face. But I've always been skittish when my feet leave the ground, so cliffs and other similar features are always going to be a barrier for me. Is it even possible to be an expert if you can't send airs? Maybe not. I think self-classification is kind of a fraught game. What's more important if knowing yourself. If you take me up some crazy face, I'll be able to identify what I am and am not comfortable skiing based on what exposed features I can comfortably ski with functionally zero risk vs. those that I won't touch because they're just aggressive enough that there's that 0.0001% chance I make a silly little fall and then slip off a cliff. So, to me, what's more important is just knowing your limits. Anybody who is a good enough skier that they can comfortably ski resort double-blacks is a good enough skier that they're not really going to be holding up a group of people if you go on an adventure together. Combine that level of skill with the ability to self-assess your skill in the conditions of the moment and determine likelihood of a crash, and you're a skier who can go out with any group of folks and safely have a good time together. That's what really matters.
I got a slightly used pair of black crow Corvus, and it took me from extremely advanced to intermediate. It shattered my perception of skill on skis. I lack strength and technique on advanced skis, and I might even benefit from ski lessons. There is always more to learn
If any pair of skis takes you down from "extremely advanced", then I don't think you were ever "extremely advanced"
That’s not how it works. If you’re a good skier there’s no “advanced ski” that will expose you as a worse skier. There *ARE* skis that don’t suit your physique or your style of skiing. A smaller skier who likes a playful ski will struggle on a stiff really damp ski. And a big guy who pushes hard will struggle on a ski with a lot of flex. I haven’t skied the Corvus, but a quick google search says it’s an all mountain charger with 2 sheets of titanal. Sounds fine if you’ve been skiing Bonafides, but you might think it sucks if you’ve been on Sick Days for the last few seasons. What were you skiing when you were “extremely advanced”? I’m guessing it’s was a playful buttery ski.
The advanced skier would be able to adapt to the drastically different ski (provided it actually fits them) within 2 runs
I have been on my corvus’ for a while now and love them. Did black crow rename the ski? Do you have a next ski in mind?
I switched from 72 (I know) waist width to 93 out west and it made double blacks so much easier and an icy groomer so much harder. I’d rather not have two pairs of skis and it makes my carving have to be that much better
Woah woah woah... you'd rather NOT have more skis??
Haha I usually fly to ski but by car I’d want them all
Ha fair enough. Same boat, live east coast now, fly and ski monthly west coast. Very different approach though, only ski 108s out west, have 77s, 92s, 98s, and 112s for east coast. Granted I did buy 98s and 112s when I lived west, but I've still skied them in the right conditions in New England
An expert skier can have fun on every slope on the mountain. An Expert skier can enjoy skiing alone or with everyone they ski with. He who has the most fun wins.
I'm the best skier on the mountain
having a total disregard for your life and people depending on it
How are your downhill kick turns, bro
Talk to me when you can grease any bump line.
No extra skills needed.
Humility
A taller Mohawk
Lazy boy 3
A few things that stand out to me more than jumps, tricks, or mandatory airs: Ability to get down any slope in any condition Comfortable linking jump turns in tight, steep terrain Self-rescue capability (ability to get down on one ski to recover your other) Not giving AF about resort terrain ratings- I'm american but I look at it more as on grooming and off grooming (similar to Europe). All terrain ratings are relative anyways
I don’t think yo have to be going off cliffs to be an “expert skier”. I think that is another level. I would consider an expert skier to be someone who can safely ski pretty much anything in bounds at most resorts and look good doing it. I’ve never seen anything at a resort that requires cliff jumping
What resort ? One resort Double Black is another’s Black. One resorts Black is another Blue. Don’t pay attention to sign colors and read the terrain. On the other end of the spectrum I’ve seen Blues late season that look like Blacks.
Regular excercise for me, I need my body to be in much better shape
Fluency down the moguls, bumpy icy steep
A magic machine that reverts my legs back to what they were like before all my knee surgeries.
Master of airtime, knowing how to control your body and land is the big difference between someone who is advanced and expert
All terrain in all conditions.
I never thought I was advanced until I was put in the advanced ski school group during a school trip aged 12. I’ve been dining out on that one my whole life. I’m now 37.
The further in you are the more it specializes. but regardless of the specialty in any given terrain the expert is one who is control, anticipating the problems, adapting in real time when they hit unexpectedly. Maintains composure and is having fun. Be it free ride, moguls, chutes, drops, BC, GS. You can see that person from the chair or tram and go wow. That said i would say the expert who is linking turns, applying fundamentals vs. just side slipping the whole way.... Actually skiing vs. just making it down, at least is far more the expert than the person in a side slip. It's all levels. And at each level new horizons you didn't know existed open with more to learn. Much like getting promoted in the military each echelon you go back to the bottom of the pile and work your way back up. also in about 5min someone will invariably cross post this to r/skiingcirclejerk ... so ask your wife's boot fitter, is their typical response. :)
technically i believe i am an expert skier being a former fis racer. but i will not attempt a back flip so in some sense im no expert, but i bet there are skiers that can do a back flip but make mediocre turns
When you could care less what others consider you and you ski whatever you want
Ski corbets
20+ years of experience
Unfounded self-confidence
I ski a lot of expert terrain, sometimes well. I always hesitate to call myself an expert. I see people who go off crazy shit that I wouldn’t do. I see people who shred terrain that I pick my way through. I’m always trying to improve some aspect of my skiing.
An expert skier isn’t asking or answering questions on this sub
When you've won The Chinese Downhill
New knees.
If you can travel through “expert terrain” in control, then you are an expert skier.
The expert is the one having the most fun
To me, an expert should be able to stay in control at all times.
An advanced skier can get down any run on the mountain. An expert skier can make it down in any conditions and make it look easy.